The Problem with Trapping Range in JKD with
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 14 окт 2024
- Joined with Rob from Combat Self Defense and we discuss the Trapping Range from Jeet Kune Do and Wing Chun.
#jeetkunedo #trapping #metrolinamartialarts
Our website: www.metrolinam...
Consider supporting us and gaining access to JKD Online Lessons: / edamus
Follow us:
Facebook: / metrolinamartialarts
Instagram: / metrolinamartialarts
Twitter: / metrolinama
Metrolina Martial Arts
350 McGill Ave NW, Suite 2, Concord, NC 28025
Concord, NC 28025
Outro: Legend of Korra Ending Remix by Dj Cutman / djcutman
I both agree that "trapping range" is a transitional range and think it's importance is often underestimated. Sylvie Von Duuglas-Ittu , who fights in Muay Thai professionally in Thailand with an emphasis on clinching, kneeing, and elbows, has talked about how those brief transitions can make or break a fight given she really wants to move from punching to clinching/grappling range while her opponents very much do not. She and her husband have made videos/film studies of just those transitional moments in some of her fights because it's that important for that approach to fighting. It may not last a very long time, but someone who wants to get into a clinch can end up in that range multiple times in a fight and needs to manage it well.
Sylvie is the best!
She has like 300+ fights very experienced & knowledgeable muay ying
I see what you call transitional moments as still part of grappling. Standup grappling isn't nearly as respected as ground grappling beyond the basics but is really just as intricate of a skill. If you are more precise with your positioning and can navigate around your opponents movements better, you will have an advantage in a fight.
The 5 Ways Of Attack are the core of Bruce Lee's JKD whereas the ranges of combat are simply a part and parcel of this fascinating mix of Fencing, Wing Chun, and Boxing. One of the 5 WOA is Hand Immobilization Attack which includes hair and leg immobilization. Unlike many Wing Chun and some JKD practitioners, Bruce ignored complex traps in favor of the single trap and hit with the focus being on the Pak Sao and Lop Sao. If Lee was unable to apply the trap, he simply disengaged and crashed the line or shifted to the side (e.g., Simple Angular Attack) to fire punches/kicks.
This guy gets it
I’m happy to be the No Touch Trapping guy. Great collab man! Can’t wait to do more
Copyright that!
When I trained at a JKD school (2011) and we did any Jun Fan trapping sparring well each spar was only 2 seconds and sifu called time. It was a neat thing to train and sifu didn't teach it as a permanent range of fighting beyond a moment. Now that I train as a boxer for the moment that range is just inside boxing range that might have a trap in there but nothing complex given the gloves. For the most part I'm throwing punches and not trapping.
Exactly! You can do a single - maybe double trap. But mostly, it's just boxing range
good luck in your fights, God bless
I've always thought of trapping range as being no different than grappling range. I actually had an old teacher that believed that if you were close enough to trap, you were close enough to set up a throw.
You definitely could do that lol
I've always seen it as a transition between punching range and grappling range. Or as a closing gap kind of thing. The issue is that the whole exercise is about action and reaction. What you do when you close the gap and your opponent blocks your attack and counters, in that situation you'll be effectively in trapping range. The main problem with the exercise is that we are doing it thinking you'll be always fighting another Win Chun or JKD fighter.
This is like the transitions between standing grappling techniques and ground fighting techniques in judo / bjj. Its just the boxing range transition to grappling to ground lol
@@THEscenageyes believe it or not there's a lot similar concepts between grappling and Wing Chun. But like everything in life is how you translate them and how you learn to apply them. That's were us Wing Chun practitioners fall short. We need to reassess our approach to applying those concepts.
Depends on your objective do you want to throw the guy and possibly fight him on the ground with his buddies around or do you want to hand control?
I've trained (Wong Shun Leung) Wing Chun for about five years. In my own experience, trapping and sensitivity (e.g. Poon Sau, Chi Sau) is much more useful for grappling and wrestling (trying to get to a clinch position and prevent the other person to get a grip on you) than for striking.
I use it in grappling all the time
@@metrolinamartialarts wow your reaction was quick man! In fact, whenever we wrestle, one of the biggest complains during the sparring is that people can't seem to hold on to their partners because they can't get through their sensitivity (trapping) defense, so they're not able to apply their takedowns. So we often do wrestling where using sensitivity is not allowed 😅...
@@metrolinamartialarts Have you seriously never watched Roberto Duran or Jack Johnson fight. Trapping is essentially a blend of grappling AND striking. Holding and Hitting, and early 1900s boxers like Johnson were masters of it. Trapping range is a grappling range where you still have enough room to punch and yes it exists.
@@metrolinamartialarts ruclips.net/video/p5NzQwzvL-0/видео.html
This was how boxers from the old School Bare Knuckle era were taught to fight on the inside/close quarters. You don't shell up and block/take the impact of the punches on your arms and shoulders. Instead you smother and trap your opponents arms in a game of clinch fighting, gain control and deliver your offense from there. When I think of trapping this is what comes to my mind.
I would have thought that the complex trapping drills are like lock flows. You'll never actually do all of it, but going through it as a drill sets up the sensitivity (hopefully) to do some bit of it when the opportunity presents itself.
This is exactly it. It's like touching a hot stove. The body just reacts. The mind doesn't think, "Gee that stove is hot. I better pull the hand back." the hand just recoils.
A trap is a pattern interrupt. It breaks the opponent's flow for a split second.
Personally I've found one of the best uses for a trap is setting up a knee break. While they're focused on the hands and going for a grapple, you kick the knee or stomp the foot / ankle.
Your correct in the "moment in time" it's not trapping its stop hitting while cover/checking with the other limb . Compound trapping is a attribute builder not so much reality. Dont fuss to much just hit the guy.
100% - more emphasis on hitting
You nailed it, trapping is a singular moment in time, and it's also not something you set out to do, just something that happens as a result of you not being able to hit the person in the face (at least this is my understanding of chi sau as a wing tsun hobbyist). Even the long, more lively chi-sau exchanges are not anything resembling a fight, but each individual exchange is like something that could happen in a separate fight. I think lots of wing chun people focus too much on chisau because it's fun, looks cool, and they mistake it for real fighting. But the best expression of wing chun is kicking or punching your opponent and ending the fight.
Trapping is one of the most important aspects of Chinese martial arts and you two make some very good points. I think that it would be beneficial for you to seek out someone that does internal styles such as Xingyiquan, Xinyiliuhequan and Baguazhang to experience their takes on trapping. It's quite different and I believe that you will like it!
I trained Xing Yi and Yes it's a bit different. It's less handsy. Ismet Himmet has a few good videos about Xing Yi angle work and expressing the elements
@@arbogast4950 That is true, but trapping is still an integral aspect. I feel that it is used more practically than in Wingchun. What makes it more effective is that one doesn't rely on succeeding in trapping for the attack to succeed as a whole and the emphasis on reconditioning the body to generate different types of power that make the trapping stronger, which is really just knocking the opponents limbs out of the way. After all, it's not called trapping in Chinese.
"Trapping range" is something I have always thought of as a transitional range, between grapping and striking or striking and grappling. If you are fighting Its something you move through rather than something you spend time in.
LOL No touch trapping 😂.
Thank you for sharing ☺️.
When we trained traping with Sifu Cowels, after we learned the muscle memory from engaged position it was then only used after a disengaged entry like wrist hit Pac sau, Lop sau, Jut sau, ect... This way it can be employed into your practical sparing.
The style I trained in, we used to practice the exact same thing the the gentleman from combat self defense was showing you how Roberto Duran used to fight. We were told not to train it as a way of fighting, but an attribute to what you do, so if you were a boxer, it would help your sensitivity with fighting inside. My instructor used to call is the grease that helps the engine work. I just subscribed to your channel. I like it a lot. I look forward to your next video
9:09 I like how that guy used THE BLIND SIDE to out position you. Fantastic.💯🥊
The trapping range and chi sau is not a constant distance in fighting, it is part of movement and realizing when you are in that range. Practicing chi sau or other trapping techniques teaches you to react when that sweet spot in time, where both range and opponent body position collide perfectly all that practice will allow you to react without thinking but utilizing more of a reflex action which will greatly increase your ability to be successful with those techniques which should be followed up with striking or grappling.
"Singular trap as a moment in time" ... very good description... Fundamental principle of the jkd philosophy is "grappling is a result of a failed attack or counter attack". Any 'trap' is just an intermediary tool between those points. The less trapping needed the better
Fantastic tutorial too guys. 🥊💯💥
Always enjoy your videos, Ed... but a question for you: is this an example of the evolution of your thought vs. 3 years ago with the 5 essential ranges?
Yeah, this is a good example of that. I found in teaching the ranges - hyper-literal people would get stuck on which range they were in versus what tools were available and the strategies therein to get them to work.
I still use it as a teaching modality, but I definitely point out that one could do traps, punches, etc from multiple ranges.
Sifu.. please explain the BUI SAO entry to these guys. We changed the structure years ago to a more boxing friendly setting. Without spiking the guys eyes or throat our boxing and kickboxing ends up looking like MMA. Not jeet ..💥
You kind of covered this in the video, but I've always thought of trapping as a "transitional range" if you will. A moment in time in between your other striking or grappling techniques. My issue with my old gym was that I think we spent too much time on trapping compared to other things. I have been able to land pak sao and other traps in sparring, but it just happens wayyyy less than fundamental kickboxing techniques.
I've always looked at trapping and chi sao as a transition range. That distance that has to be covered from striking to grappling. Watch two Judoka as they move in and fight for grip, you'll see the sticking hands as they first move in trying to get their grips. It's a very short time but it's there. And for the Bruce Lee cultists it's as you are saying you will get brief shots and applications , but as Lee said don't get caught in idealist sticking to form... wish I had time to did out the quote but if you get caught up in trying to do a trapping set then you will loose, but ( and is usually repeated by people who understand American Kenpo) you can train these long trapping , checking , sticking foundation so you can yank the little snippets out when you need them.
Trapping range is also known as a Clinching or "Standing grappling range"... that's how we in the PFS and JKD concept camps describe it. No man's land (outside of kicking), kicking, punching, clinch, and grappling/ground ranges. That's how I learned it and that's how I coach it in both MMA and in self defense/combatives classes. It's a range that isn't specifically married to wing chun tactics but it does contain those methods which we call sofisticated trapping... it's mentality being one of hand immobilization/manipulation as described in the five ways of attack... it's the range where one controls limbs and posture, which is why we tend to lean more towards muay thai and shooto clinch methods (which some may call unsophisticated trapping). Which I also know thats how Ron Balicki describes it as well... which is your linage as well as my own. My instructorship certification coming directly from both Inosanto and Vunak respectively. So that's how I coach it at my gyms.
That's a good way of coaching it. I think it's just too heavily relied upon in instruction as a uncompromising rule - whereas it should be guidelines.
@@metrolinamartialarts very true... like most methods and thought processes, it should be fluid.
I have actually found chi sau to be FAR more useful than the pop-pop-pop rhythm you can recognize in most traditional trapping methods. The "riding the hands" concept that you guys are discussing is pretty much along these lines. Example: When acting as a bouncer, you're in this weird limbo between self-defense and being law enforcement. You really aren't able to claim either of those things in an engagement with regards to how you handle it. That means that the onus is on you to find a way to keep yourself safe while maintaining some semblance of control over this crazy/drunk/jerkface/bustedwagonwheel/wonderfulpatron. Thus the "riding the hands" or really just the energy in general of the person while maintaining motion towards the designated choice of exits you want them to go through comes into play WAY more than normal self-defense-ey situations. Good stuff as always though, guys!
You’re right an actual fight wouldn’t end being trapping contest but you should be able to block/trap and instantly react with a kick,punch,elbow,take down or even a strong push.
Like the "priority of skill" comment made by Rob, not all just want to learn to fight, but folks like me do. Some of us are in dangerous industries, like me a long time repo-man, want to cut to the chase in these martial arts systems. *Shout out to any repo-men, repo-women out there!
I had a great conversation about this with Ajarn Greg on my last video with him. Trapping range does exist and has been blended with grappling most of the time. We trap from hand fighting, clinch, anti-grappling and even in guard. I remember Professor Pedro Sauer has shown me how to use trapping in his guard, It was eye opening. Like Sifu Francis said, trapping should be no more than 1 or 2 moves. But It’s not just to trap the hand, it’s the line.
100% - I use trapping and modified chi sao all the time from the guard (both top and bottom)
I think the range may exist inside of other ranges but not one where you can't do other techniques but only trapping.
Thanks for the comment Sifu!
@@metrolinamartialarts doing “only trapping” might be like “trap and move out” type of things. In WC we study reference point, but not in only “hand to hand” contact. JKD only shows a portion of trapping, but those trapping reference point can be hand on shoulder, hand on wrist, hand in air, elbows framing, and etc. It’s just that most people think trapping is from a hand to hand reference position. However, there are quick moves you can do that’s only trapping tho. Maybe that will be my next topic. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@KevinLeeVlog that'd be a good topic! I wish everyone would fight from the reference point. I'd be way better at fighting 🤣😂
@@metrolinamartialarts 🤣
Howdy. Welcome to Texas!
Trapping range is the between stage of punching and grappling range. it only last for a split second. Then you automatic will be back at punching or grappling
Duran fighting in the pocket was nasty. He really understood how to manipulate the inside fight game. In today’s boxing game Lomo is another fighter that has success with angles and raking the guard on the inside ( pocket)
The hype train of Trapping and ranges has been going around for years.
Just like the 1 inch punch ( cough 3”punch)😉 misunderstood training technique.
Anyway, My Sifu would always
say
“don’t believe the hype of trapping”…, “ many don’t understand it”.
“ you need a distraction to actually pull off a trap many try to force it and get punched in the mouth “
I’ve seen that with my own eyes. Lot of struggling and forcing contact then waiting to see if they actually got the trap? The opportunity to apply a trap is a really small window but if you miss you gotta keep rolling within your offense. Seen to many guys frustrated with it and walk away saying this “shit doesn’t work”?..
The end of the video you mentioned Bruce Lee switching sides depending on his opponents stances. In my lineage of WC( William Cheung). This is the beginning basic stances called blindside( aka mirrored).
We want to have the ability to attack outside the lead arm closer to the elbow as possible. We look to continue pressure on the blindside attempting to take away your opponents rear hand power punch. That’s where the contact reflexes come in with chi sao and the possibly of a trap window 🪟… if not keep it moving. Don’t wait for the magic create the magic!
So when the opponents switch stances we do too. But we don’t shift we step to meet them.
Good break down on your view points of trapping. Thanks for the video and keep it coming.
I'd suggest that the range really does exist, its just that traps are too complex to utilize at the speeds required. In my system we just call it close range, and the only things I suggest using are elbows, knees, sun punches and hooks. All of which are more simple and IMO more usable in a high stress situation.
We teach these ranges, gun or ballistic distance, jump kick, kick, punch, joint or grappling distance, and then negative distance, being on the ground, or against a wall, etc. The range, distance, and nature of the attack dictate the response, technique to be used.
Yeah, I think the big problem with this type of stuff isn't the techniques themselves, it's the training methodology. Handfighting is a big part of so many combat sports, it's essentially the same thing but nobody trains by staying at the handfighting entry distance in boxing for instance. The similar thing I'm personally the most familiar with is sword binds, being a HEMA practitioner. I used to think fencing from the bind is horseshit and fantasy for two reasons: 1) I personally lacked the skill and sensibility to be able to understand it and properly do it, and 2) I saw people training it in a way that made no sense, just hanging out in the bind, never leaving it and never even attempting to attack from outside of it.
Eventually it clicked however, a realistic bind is usually very brief, you make a route for your attack and then throw that attack. Sometimes with just one movement of the sword. Longer exchanges are rare and require two people of equal high skill level. And importantly, binding is just one part of fighting: instead of the people who spend their whole training time playing from the bind, learn to find the moments when you should employ those skills. You are not supposed to chase the bind, the bind is just one of the ways to make yourself a bit safer and more likely to succeed when you attack.
My coach taught the 5 ranges. But as what you're talking about, I'd agree but say that "trapping range" is like a half range, not necessarily a full range concept. But I can agree with your explanation. I've learned to use it with my boxing, not in place of it.
I agree that trapping is a moment of time and not an individual range. I like the Duran example . It's closer to how I learned trapping. Other ways are if the person is using a shell or tight guard. So one isn't waiting for the punch.
The kickboxing southpaw example is also one of the traps that I teach. Also leg check.
I also use the Bruce Lee trick of swapping to opposite stances.
Great Video!
BTW, I have done Wing Chun. Among many other things.
Keep it up!
That "weapons range, kicking range, punching range, trapping range, grappling rage" thing you did needs to be set to music and turned into the next big dance craze.
You all are having fun. Keep doing that. 😂
I started training JKD last month my sifu says that wing Chun is awesome if you're fighting someone on a crowded bullet train or something. I definitely enjoy doing the trapping and flow drills but we work combos on focus mitts every class. The trapping drills seems to great for training reflexes but the punch training is what I'm actually gonna need if things hit the proverbial fan
Second comments about trapping: learn the basic drill. Then apply it with a step on every hand motion.
Then figure out what your individual endgame. For me, it's getting to a definite finishing position, which is usually smashing someone's head, spine or tailbone into a hard object/surface. Or getting to a dominant control position so they can't hurt me and I can pursue less violent options. Or get a head start on the New Balance 800 Meter race.
It's not to play martial patticake.
It does get interesting when leg traps also get integrated into movements. And throws. Because a lot of hand trapping also has a throw or takedown counter if one isn't limited to striking.
An aside: B Hop did a beautiful on the fly trap in boxing. He slipped a jap and pinned the glove against his shoulder with his head. And landed punches until the ref broke it up.
In actual street fights, the few classical traps I have done were incidental recognitions that bought me a split second advantage to capitalize on.
My personal opinion is that there are two ranges. You're either fighting or not. I also feel that designating and categorizing ranges (along with other things) is just one more trap (pun intended) for the mind, to solidify things and hinder flow and adaptability. Martial artists are so good at coming up with names and categories for everything. Partially I believe that's because they need a bunch of words to look like they know what they're talking about and impress their students. Although, different skills so require different distances.
We teach 4 range zones. Disengaged: nobody can hit anyone, long range( taekwando end of the foot range, mid range (punches and kick with the shin can hit, and grapple range where grappling and short strikes take place(elbow/close knee). Then for engagment zone we have: Striking( on the feet fighting, Transitional(clinch throws/takedowns grappling), Ground fighting( fighting on the ground), and finally Wall fighting ( with a wall at your back or against one grappling and striking is not the same it different enough to be its own thing)
Not a bad approach
I meant to say that. I am brutally honest. I sound rude sometimes when I look back n read. I suppose it’s because I take it so seriously. 😂lol. But anyways. It really does look like that was the problem. Some key crucial things were being missed. It’s ok. Now we know. You’re a very smart guy. I’m Positive that you could show me a clinic. I just happen to do A LOT OF STUDY. 😂I cannot stress that enough. 🤝I never stop. My best advice would be. When an opponent steps in. They shouldn’t make it past your finger tips. One in the outside eye over his bridge (Right on right SWITCH LEADS to BACK RIGHT on front RIGHT or back left on front left. First barrier. 2. BACK RIGHT CANCELS a front right. 1. FENCE THE WRIST with the back right hand. 2. FENCE THE ELBOW “Strike front hand OVER THE ELBOW. 3. HAYMAKER TIME “Use your best BUI GEE or hardest CHEUNG CHOY on a now turtle shelled and covered opponent. Try that. 4. Left hand is now in. Right hand can bring the pain from the cross. We are in position to finish. ❤
Just because it doesn't work for you does not mean it doesn't work for someone else.
Yup! Guro Ron said the same thing.
Love your Channel 👊
@@melvinwells8350 🙏🙏🙏
Ed: "trapping range doesn't exis-"
Me: ^ "that's bait"
100% 😂😂😂
Very interesting video, i liked it
Trapping range(but not necesary trapping techniques) is found in some grappling styles that allow striking or pushing but do not focus on it... Like tomiki aikido or sumo...
I've never done trapping drills. But I definitely do trapping at times in bjj. I'm pretty sure its only useful in the grappling stage of combat. The only times I see trapping happen with strikes are winding shots. Like a round house kick, the kicker can hook the leg they kick at and pull themselves in for a punch then undertooks. But that still requires a momentary pause in strikes ergo right off an impact.
Those are my thoughts like I said never did the drills. So I'm not sure if I have the right idea with the trapping.
The way I've heard trapping range is that it exists where you can touch your opponent with either hand without twisting, pivoting, etc. But that does mean it exists in just the liminal space between striking and grappling, so you rarely stick there.
Which... yeah is exactly what you're saying.
You can force the trap like Loma, I strike and you either get hit or raise your guard. You give me the trap when you guard against the strike. As for as them striking and then you trapping that’s kind of silly, I’ve seen it work but like he said it’s for a fraction of a second. It’s technically a fraction of a second if I cause it too, except it on my timing so I know when that second will occur.
If you aim for constant forward pressure in WC, are you not always trying to be in the grappling range? I'm just starting out at this and learning but in what I've seen so far trapping and throws/grappling is taught alongside each other at the same range, as in WC trapping is a transitionary step to an attack, lock or throw.
What you described as trapping range would be too far from the opponent (in what I'm learning), because we are aiming for 3 points of contact to smother their ability to attack. It's an interesting distinction with JKD where there is a greater use of kicks to manage distance.
Is it maybe that trapping does work but it's only ever fleetingly in use in a fight, rather than it doesn't work? It's over ASAP to get you into the next technique.
Correct assessment
I like that you are questioning the art. I think that's what Bruce would do even though he created it. I'm enjoying the content. keep up the good work.
Meh. I think this is kind of a strawman argument -- and you more or less admit that by the end of the video.
No, trapping doesn't actually happen like it does in a Donnie Yen movie. But striking doesn't actually happen like it does in a Van Damme movie either. Like you said, you train complex drills to develop capability not to simulate combat.
On the range question, I think the problem with the way you're looking at it is that you're thinking of ranges as exclusive, when in fact they overlap. Its not like you have to stop punching or kicking when you enter trapping range. Trapping range overlaps with the inner half of punching range and even with the very edge of kicking range. It also overlaps with the beginning of grappling/clinch range. That's one of the reasons that I prefer trapping range -- because it amplifies your striking and provides entry for clench.
Also, in my experience most self-defense scenarios happen at trapping range because of surprise, surroundings, (ie, the real world, not a clean ring), clumsy/untrained opponents, etc. Clean striking and pure grappling are for sport fighting.
You are a cool dude. I wanna hip you to something I’ve been working on. 1. USING THE HANDS AS SWORDS. 2. A BACK RIGHT TAKES OUT A FRONT RIGHT. Over the wrist to the outside eye. BUI GEE. Back right on front right. 3. ELBOW “Fire a front left hand over the elbow to the outside eye. Target gets hit twice. If you do it right it should sound like (CHICK CHICK) 1-2 quickly. 4. THROAT “Now that we blocked the arm with two finger jabs over his bridge his throat is open. 5. BACK RIGHT HAND SWORD TO THROAT. 6. BECAUSE WE PUT A HAND ON HIS THROAT (BUI GEE) it makes a platform to fire a CHEUNG CHOY. So we shoot a vertical fist right off of our own hand as it just makes an entry vehicle. Try it. 4 actions in total that sword fence the arm and hit 2 vitals. ❤you can begin to do these at linger and longer ranges if you get good at it. I have a few other ways it works out too. When we get real good at it. We can shoot two over the forearm and use the hand that’s already in to harden up n use a PING CHOY boxers hit. Chick chick then boom.😂
Chick Chick then Boom, baby.
Good stuff. Love that Bruce isn’t dismissed or deified on your channel. Hate seeing either.
He was a man - a cool as hell man. But, just a man nonetheless
I was told the complex trapping drills were to teach the single application trap and strike, from all the possible angles.
IMO it doesn't transfer and if anything the drills were more obstructive to my boxing, than helpful. When the dutch style kickboxing school where I trained, merged with the BJJ school to start an MMA club, we almost immediately added sprawl and brawl and Jits with hits training, at the end of sparring classes. With my JKD background, early on I was able to pull off some trapping from inside people's guards! Usually, they were not very advanced and if they were more advanced BJJ guys, or collegiate wrestlers, they had not done cage fight training and were not used to any striking attacks on the ground. My success seemed pretty short-lived, as everyone eventually started to catch on and, I recall getting caught in submissions pretty easily after that.
Yeah, you can start the trapping shenanigans but they have to be seldom used or they catch on
@Metrolina Martial Arts Matt Thornton figured this out in the 90s!
but somehow it still gets taught, I mean the principles of JKD/wing chun, hell even aikido are useful. Like your saying though, it's never as neat as its presented and is no substitute for high percentage boxing/ kickboxing and grappling.
When I first trained JKD in ‘97, the first thing they showed you was the Enter The Dragon pak sao - punch combo, because let’s face it, you were there to be like Bruce Lee. Then the trapping lie begins to unravel in sparring, but you still practice chi sao, because again Bruce Lee. I don’t think we had the insight back then to apply trapping methodology to clinching and grappling, that would have been interesting.
Agreed!
For me, trapping range is just the same as punching range. Trapping (at least the way I use it) is basically just complicated blocking or punching after I move my opponent's hands out of the way.
Always thought trapping range is dirty boxing or a form of clinch fighting. Love your work.
Yeah, it can exist in that range.
I box and also do JKD - when going against a boxer - I found out simple lop sau works a LOT (and variations of parry/hit) - not complex traps - that's nonsense - just like kali with all this complicated moves - when u spar (blunt marking knives, full contact gear) u can only do one, MAYBE two slices at a time (trying not to get cut yourself) - like a Kali grandmaster said even kali gets stylized with ridiculous forms and sequences - and if u can't use it in sparring - u CAN'T use it in real life (where u REALLY don't want to get cut).
Didn't Tony Ferguson use trapping followed up with an elbow for knockout in a mma match?
"Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless, and add what is specifically your own." - Bruce Lee
100%
My Sifu use to tell me "It's your Wing Chun, do whatever works for you"
@@Mcgiver699 perfect
"Don't be stupid and learn the basics" - Jesus Christ
@@Jenjak "Shut up and get lost if you've got nothing better to say!" - Judas Iscariot
Bob Bremer had it right... just reach out and punch him in the face. Lol. Good video man! I really enjoyed this.
Thanks so much! 🤜💥🤛
It’s not about the range. It obviously matters but the most effect is gained in the moment your opponent is advancing. If you attempt trapping when your opponent is standing or able to step back it won’t do anything
I'd love to hear more about what you brought up at 6:45!
"Weapon range" is a misnomer: You canuse a weapon at any distance. Distance doesn't mitigate the usage of it.
trapping really looks more like an entering technique (or group of techniques) rather than a range.
When I learn JKD, I did the trapping range, but what I realize that the trapping range is just the clinch rage, and it exist in Muaythai and will disappear as soon
I tend to agree
Trapping has so much context and is widely misunderstood. Sadly people laugh at these tactics but they are damn near present in all martial arts. Because essentially mixed martial arts isn't new. Shuai jiao helped me understand Chinese martial arts along with other arts so much. I suggest checking out Dante Basili's RUclips channel or Ismet Himmet's channel.
We leave the punch hanging for colored belts in aikido, shotokan, wado during the choreographed practice. But during open sparring, we throw and retract/guard like normal.
welcome to austin!!
It's a neat city!!
Like said in the video punching and kicking etc is primary and trapping should be secondairy. If all you do is train set sequences of complex movements you will never be able to use them in sparring. The best "traps" are often just intercepting strikes or simple controls.
🤜💥🤛
It Exists but in context . In the street maybe a split second . But training art and training function are very different.
Problem is that the great general public see the whole thing as self defence.
Self Defence classes ain't nice 😕
The problem is there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what “trapping” is. The idea of “trapping” is a misinterpretation of the concept of “checking and hitting “ (or kau da” which is a fundamental strategy in southern Chinese martial arts. Where trapping is seen as a method of restriction what its actually supposed to do is check the opponent’s limb or move it just enough to open the opponent’s guard. “Trapping range” exists at any point bridge contact is made meaning anytime a deflection or parry happens
But does it exist where other tools can be used?
@@metrolinamartialarts the idea of “range separation” might be useful as a teaching tool but never reflects actual fighting. No specific techniques should be used independently of each other. Matter of fact when discussing the Chinese martial arts each category of technique (upper body, lower body, catch and lock, and wrestling) should be used in combination to support one another
@@SifuChrisChilds exactly! Imo, the ranges shouldn't exist at all. It's too limiting if people are super literal
@@metrolinamartialarts they could be useful as a training tool. For instance a session of clinch wrestling or identification or a preferred distance when using a weapon (staff vs blade for instance) but the idea that only specific techniques should be used is flawed.
@@metrolinamartialarts also I find the misconception many have of “trapping range” as a place to sit and try to pin the opponent’s limbs to extremely frustrating. If you want to defend these kind of traps all you have to do is move. The entire premise is ineffective and causes people to be dismissive of these techniques even if done properly
Trapping distance is an unstable distance that tends to grappling range or boxing range, but it is a shame not to use it. It should be used for at least one punching attack (short fist puch, elbows) or locks (locks are a typical example of trapping). Also, there is no denying that it is a super fun, most dynamic and very aerobic distance, all with the least possible chance of injury - if practitioners strictly follow the rules. Its purpose is develop fine tactile perception. And it, of course, creates added martial value. For full combat value it is necessary to practice dynamic changes in angles, distances and levels of attack.
I live in LA and in most of my street fights I've used trapping . Sport fighting is different from fighting with no rules.
I never said trapping doesn't work- the range doesn't. But traps do works. Also stop getting in street fights - it's bad for your health
i dont understand why all the controversy about 'trapping'
I box and when im sparring i use hand clearing and hand trapping all the time to pulldown peoples guard and open up punches. Boxers do it all the time so do wrestlers.
I think the complex fancy trapping shit doesnt happen.
Mexican boxers, often fight in that range with a literally pressed airheads two against one another in the fight like that look at Errol Spence
It's a solid range
I love to use trapping to get to grappling, but trapping to strike ehhhhhhh not so much past one maybe two strikes.
We only teach about 5 trap pattern, all 5 of which work well in application. The are not fancy and build off basic the combos of a 121or 123.
Nice
Ohhh so this is what this channel actually has! Modern aplication for traditional martial arts!
i had not figured it out. I was wondering: Is it actual aplication for martial arts labeled as useless? Is it respect to every martial art? Is it combat sports advice? Maybe self defense advice? I don't get it, is this channel supposed to show something that others don't (good insights of martial arts like JKD, explaining what are many of their techniques supposed to do, etc)??
Yes! Lol
I'm a JKD guy trying to make sense of the classical mess. So it's respectful (when needed), it has self-defense, it has combat sports, and yes it has JKD.
@@metrolinamartialarts i see, i always try to hard to interpret and overthink everything, so i have been thinking about this channel for some time by now, so try to imagine how i felt when i realized that your intro already says it...
@@metrolinamartialarts oh, so it seems like i was somewhat correct on my overthinking
@@jestfullgremblim8002 i think so
Anderson Silva is great at trapping in a fight MMA or Boxing
Yeah he does
Trapping range isn’t what you expect to be if you are starting in JKD or Wing Chun. When learning the sensitivity drills. Especially when they are learning the gates in trapping. In sense, it is the instructor's fault if they don't fully explain the application of the drill. Explain how trapping can work in a fight. As you said, “You don’t fight in that position (chi sau) or the starting position as you would see in Enter The Dragon. The scene where Bob Wall (Ohara) and Bruce Lee (Lee) where they are at that reference point where Lee paks and to slap out O’Hara’s barrier to get that back fist. It looks awesome on film but not realistic. Bruce Lee loves chi sau you can see him using chi sau blindfolded. If you only know the drills in trapping but not understanding the actual application then you’ll be stuck in just knowing the drills. It’s like using hubud and thinking that this will work in a real knife defense and that you’ll never get cut would be stupid. Don’t be foolish thinking that these drills will work in fights. When you spar do you start in reference point? If so why? Also stop!!! That is how Mcdojos get started. Not saying trapping is worthless no. The good thing about learning trapping you can feel how tense someone is. When it is a sensitivity drill and your partner isn’t relax you can feel that he/she is trying to use force which make trapping easier for the person who is relax to get the trap. I think when people think of the word “trap” in trapping that person is stuck and they are completely stopped. When you “trap” it is a way to open up for a attack or something that can provide you for a counter attack.
Agreed!
@@metrolinamartialarts sorry to write a whole book lol.
👍🤘
🤜💥🤛
It's called flexible range. Trapping isn't a range it's a set of techniques. Trapping is very simple it's wrist to wrist with opposite hands and your free hand presses and opposite strike or just strikes. Thats the trap your lead hand controls the arm is the trap. If you press with your rear hand it becomes the lead hand with the trap.
That's a good name for it!
I don't feel like this is accurate.
Just because it is a transitional movent doesn't mean the distance doesn't exist.
Trapping is essentially pummeling, clinch range. It is the bridge between clinch work and striking. The base of wing Chun states that you are weakest in transition this is why they train in transitional stances. (I forget the name of the first stance)
Trapping as such is a moment in time because it is a transition. You drill the transition to be able to land from where you like to.
I like the mention of lomachenko and Robert Duran. Trapping exist inside of the clinch and it happens often in wrestling. Trapping is hand fighting and balance breaking that it all.
So judo uses trapping and dynamic strikes to disrupt movement. As does muy thai.
I think trapping is probably not the best name for it. But in nearly every martial art there is a timing and transitional technique.
Transitional ranges and movements definitely exist, but a pre-determined range does not. At least at a higher level. There is distances to work on traps etc, but its not a range
@@metrolinamartialarts ruclips.net/video/ZPrMgolbkCE/видео.html
I think he explains it pretty well. When he uses the analogy well of Shaolin monks. Paraphrasing essentially when everyone is at the top of their game the difference isn't in the big gross movements but who is better able to judge, manage and execute the transitions presented to them in that moment.
I liken it into dynamic weight lifting like snatch cleans. If you do not train the transitional movement to the snatch you will fail everytime. While not exactly 'range' in the traditional sense. It is a conceptual one which separates those at high level.
@@metrolinamartialarts btw keep up the content man. I love the conversations you are bringing to the table especially when it comes to updating jkd as a system. Understanding it historically whilst still offering a practical modern take. One that is intuitive and immediately actionable at that.
Er, chi sau is not about trap training. Chi sau is about sensitivity training. Yeah you don't use chi sau to fight just like a boxer doesn't use a jump rope to fight... a boxer uses a jump rope as a training tool just like wing chun uses chi sau as a training tool/exercise.
Yup!
Trapping is NOT a range, it is a method to go from striking to grappling range or to clear a path for a strike. It is instantanous and is for just a fraction of a second. Drills you see are to build reactions & muscle memory BUT are taught imporperly by many who think one can just walk in & think they can count on traps on everyone everytime to get the upper hand in a real fight, likely NOT going to happen my friends! (3 years JKD, 8 years Wing Chun)
Yup, that's pretty much what I said in the video. (15 years JKD, 21 years speaking Japanese, 36 years breathing)
@@metrolinamartialarts Thanks for the reply! The Wing Chun crowd seems a bit of a cult althogh it gives a nice base for JKD. There are some "woke" Wing Chun Instructors out there (few), one a 40 yr. instrctor and rather long time good friend of mine who has evolved his art over the years. Nice video. enjoyed! Subsrcribed!
I disagree agree i feel like trapping is transitional but there is a range were its most effective
I feel the hand fighting & clinch(standing) range is where
Trapping works most effectively
U are in a range where they'll want grab push & pull those energies are perfect to counter but u have to be able to recognize it which is why sensitivity training is so important
& idk if jkd practitioners do enough of that in general
They probably don't
@@metrolinamartialarts
More should
The face u get when u land a trap of complete confusion is priceless
I thought your shirt said "Le Glocker," as in "I use a Glock in French," and was utterly mystified for about 2 seconds.
My only concern with what was covered in this video is that you didn't know who Roberto Duran was 😅
My apologies 😅
You said that trapping range doesn't exist. Then you also said that it exists for a few fractions of a second. So which one is it? Does it exist or does it not exist?
@@lbdave562 yes
Watch Guo Shi Lei move ( ma weiqi bagua )
Idk your channel at all but I'm just gonna throw it out there, maybe karambit range is trapping range? Idk, watch people who actually know how to fight with a knife against other well trained knife fighters, and obviously they're just drilling but.. if that's what military uses I'd assume there's some application.
Trapping with weapons is way better
Yea it checks out, trapping and all the drills like sticky hands and push hands are usefull tools, people just need to recognize that they are usefull for a very specific moment and time, then you have to move on to the rest of what makes up fighting.
P.S: have been watching your videos lately, I really like your open minded yet pragmatic approach to martial arts. As a kung fu practitioner that strives to make the art functional I really appreciate it. You earned a new subscriber 👌🏼.
🙏🙏🙏
@@metrolinamartialarts also on a side note, thank you for your kind words in Jerry's (from fight commentary breakdowns) video about my fight, I'm already working on improving for the next time a fight comes up 💪🏼
@@kevinlobos5519 🤜💥🤛
@@kevinlobos5519 keep it up dude. Great attitude 👏
Well for me I seen trapping range does not exist you got your kicking range you’re punching range you got your Clinch range and then you got the ground fighting range But this is just my opinion because then again what the hell do I know
Trapping bullets will never work. It will get you to seriously injured. Thats why i dont believe trapping is for full speed punches but for a push, shove or grapple. Thats when you can get one trap in to hit hit hit your opponent. But before you want this to work then you should train it in this 21st century of fighting. So all that WC or Enter the Dragon type of traps will not work. See it more as a dirty boxing instead.
I do believe you can split enteries to intercept and follow up. I dont see that as trapping but as boxing. As you also said lomachenko does a great lapsao technique to hit hit hit his opponent. He makes it work cuz its not the WC fantasy technique in the air. SOOO how to know what traptechnique works FOR YOU is just put your mouthguard in and spar , fight, get hit and keep on working on the technique. But never think you can trap a full speed punch then just block, avoid and counter that B!tch.
The easiest answer to this presentation by them saying trapping range doesn't exist, I would ask them have they trained with someone that really knows Jeet Kune Do or Wing Chun? Lol Because to make that statement and you never touched hands with someone that really knows it, how would you know? I see both of them talking more than showing, that's all I need to know from this presentation. Lol Trapping isn't supposed to be complex, because it's all predicated on touching and feeling when you get in that range and one of the JKD concepts is simplicity, so if it's too complicated for a person, they obviously don't know what they're doing and most people don't. Only people who do are the people who actually went through the journey and trained with people who know what they're doing.
Ok.
Could exist, if one guy is grabbing both of the other guy's wrists.
There’s no problem with it.. it’s not supposed to be used to do MMA SPARRING. We use the finger tips to enter. They go in the eyes and throat. This is a problem when you try to play fight? So landing a quality strike needs to be done differently. Don’t waste time sparring and grappling. Concentrate on INJURING YOUR OPPONENTS as soon as they move we begin to flow. Again, I fully respect you, and your site. But I can tell you need an enlightenment. Landing a 1000 lb vertical fist to the center mass is what we’re trying to accomplish. It might be just that you haven’t seen this stuff yet?? Idk? But either way, I’m not seeing anything wrong here at all. Just a need to see and understand real JEET KUNE DO. It should be devastating. The trap you did middle way through the video? You don’t have to molest the arm in order to trap? Engage him. He’ll make a contact. Go above or below or around it. Crash into him with your most powerful strike. 🤛💯💥✅
I do not seek enlightenment.
I should be clear. Based on your video n what you said, I can tell you’re having a hard time using the traps you know in live sparring matches. Problem is. You’re not trying to hurt the guy? See my point? Your stuff would work better if he had a helmet on n you could tune him up in the trap range. He’s counting on you going easy? Which is why the wrestlers and jui jitsu guys have a field day with some of us on the mat. Take away the intention to harm. And JKD doesn’t translate. Precise clean striking that gets set up. By the way. I didn’t mean any harm with my comments. I just feel it’s my democratic right to speak on things where I may be doing of help. ✅💥💯㊙️
Removing the intention to hurt allows us to train everyday without injuries.
Really...? Well, It Exist! I Guess, You Don't Know What You Don't Know. Nice Concept Though...
There's no such thing as trapping range, there's only Long, medium and close range, what you do in those ranges is entirely up to the situation at the time, you can grab (grapple) in close range, but you can also kick (foot stomp, shin kick, knee to the groin etc), you can punch, you can jab, you can trap, bite, scratch pull etc etc. Never condition your strategic thinking such that a certain range is for a certain type of tool, learn to use all of them in all ranges...
Yes, I believe I said that in the video.
Well it can be used in a explosion. There are take downs and kicks . I think your over playing this art . No are you gonna keep trapping and nothing else is just so stupid and that what you are making it out to be and there more then just trapping in Wing Chun . Just like any other art can you pull it off . Look at the end of the day can you ( not you per say but in general can you fight comes into play . There a black belts out there that can't even fight . But like I said Wing Chun is more then just trapping . I'm trained in Iron Fist /Iron Palm as well let me get a shot off bet that head will be hurting or a good palm slap . But there are palm strikes fist strikes . All that trapping or blocks whatever you want to call it is for entry, eye jabs , elbows and kick are in corporaterated with the blocks . The drills are for mind control my opinion and look at it likes this Whig Chun is so bizarre in a way the normal street fighter won't know what to do with it . If someone like Master Wong uses it I believe it is very usable . Just like wrestling would you only want that for your arsenal ? No of course not . Self defense is really to get out of harms way thats it . Now street wise you saw how fast this art can be . Now have a box cutter in one of those hands and please do you think the whatever you want to call whatever is still useless . Everything has a place . Just gotts know when to you use it .