Old Garden Roses: The Portlands
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- Опубликовано: 20 окт 2024
- Last in my series of the old garden roses, here's a summary of the Portland Roses. The Portlands are an unusual class because they all descend from one rose of unknown provenance; Duchess of Portland. Later genetic testing puts them as descendants of the Autumn Damask and gallica roses. They were unique amongst the European roses that they reliably rebloom.
Here's my playlist on the different types of roses, including all of my previous videos in this series: • Types of Roses
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Photo credits:
Old Blush by A. Barra CC BY-SA 3.0
Duchesse de Grammont by A. Barra CC BY-SA 3.0
Duchess of Portland by Salicyna CC BY-SA 4.0
Autumn Damask Rose by A. Barra CC BY-SA 3.0
Cardinal de Richeliea by Krzysztof Ziarnek, Kenraiz CC BY-SA 4.0
Madame Plantier by Dmitriy Konstantinov CC BY-SA 4.0
Comte de Chambord by Jamain CC BY-SA 3.0
Rose du Roi (1) by Kurt Stüber CC BY-SA 3.0
Jacques Cartier (1) by Arnaud 25 CC BY-SA 3.0
Jacques Cartier (2) by Salicyna CC BY-SA 4.0
Rose de Rescth by Krzysztof Ziarnek, Kenraiz CC BY-SA 4.0
Rose du Roi by 阿橋 HQ CC BY-SA 2.0
Yolande d’Aragon by Arnaud 25 CC BY-SA 3.0
Blac de Vibert by National Gardening Association Plants Database Admin CC BY-NC-ND 3.0
You’re doing important work here thank you
Thanks!
Great video again Jason to give them some prominence. We hold the National Collection of Portland roses in the UK and it is busily expanding with my partner's research sourcing further members of the class from other European countries - so we've been as far afield as Italy, France, Germany and the Netherlands. The danger here is that many of the roses are known by several names so this always has to be cross - checked and you've already brought up the fact the Yolande is classified as a Portland whereas others can find themselves identified in other classes depending on which 'expert' is running the nursery. As you say - provenance on such things can be a hard one to prove. So we are up to nearly 40 different at last count - I am sure this will be thinned down once we have taken on board research by other rose authorities too but hopefully only one or two. Jacques Cartier is certainly the go-to rose I would recommend as a starter - tough as old boots, very vigorous (up to 8ft if you let it), Comte de Chambord is my favourite for fragrance but needs some decent weather to stop the flowers balling and can have a rather more lax habit with thinner stems, Yolande as good large flowers, Rose de Rescht makes the neatest form for garden display with a wonderful deep rich colour, Indigo is another good one for it's mauve colour. Blanc de Vibert is rubbish in Scotland - very vigorous bush but flowers form and then always drop before opening - needs a little warmer - we managed 2 or 3 flowers as usual this year. Their remontant habit gives them flushes of repeat, when I lived in southern England this could be 3 good flushes, first being the best and the last persisting into early Winter. Now living in Scotland it tends to be 2 flushes with the shorter growing season. Most are tolerant of poorer soils and shadier sites. Another reason for their demise was that the novelty of the repeat flowering over-ruled the need for robust plants and many of the later varieties we were able to source are little known for good reason - they are more difficult to cultivate as they are in general weaker specimens. Enough of this - I could go on boring for Scotland on the subject, we run horticultural courses centred on roses here too with Portlands taking centre stage as you can imagine. Once again - thanks for giving these prominence - an important group.
Thanks for sharing your expertise on these - very useful for everyone to hear about their garden performance in various climates. I appreciate the work you do on this!
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm - I have very little to add to the vast amounts you have input over the years Jason - keep up the great work - always a pleasure to listen to what you have to say.
I very love the old roses!
What an education you provide!
My ears perked up when you mention the Jacques Cartier rose as it was the first variety I tried in a yard with poor soil and no wind protection. Eighteen years later its still producing its blooms. I live in Alberta and this rose has survived numerous winters of -40 C or more with no babying. To say it’s tough is an understatement. I compare it to the Hansa roses I also have for determination to come back each spring regardless of climatological maltreatment. 🌹
Good to hear - I often take that question from viewers about cold-hardy roses. I'm not in a position to test it in my area, so thanks for the confirmation!
Thank you very much for the wunderfully educational Videos. I am a Gardner from germany, worked as a Florist in my owen flower Shop for the last 15 years. The love for the roses comes from my father ,who was a great rose lover. He oculate roses himself.There also several roses in my garden,preferably historical roses. I learn a lot from your Videos an i am always looking forward to ist.
I am just someone who loves their own small garden in the south of England, but I think your videos are great. I love the history and the rose family tree. Is it possible to have a printerble version?
Floristry and gardening - two wonderful ways to keep the beauty of flowers at hand. Thanks for your encouragement!
Thanks Pauline. I think I posted a link below the original family tree video where you can order prints.
Wonderful video. Portlands are such tough easy care garden shrubs. Beautiful and fragrant !
Beautiful roses the history behind it is cool too.
Thanks - sometimes I get a little too enthusiastic about the back-story (thus a 10 minute video on genetics and European history). But it takes all kinds I suppose.
Thank you so much 👍🌹
Thank you! I have 3 Rose de Rescht and three Jacques Cartier ( which has to be exhibited as Marchesa Boccella in America) and have ordered Sidonie. I have had Portlands since 2003, and those two were two of the first three I obtained. I have never understood why I do not see them in other gardens. They are fantastic roses in terms of health and rebloom, and are a controllable size. Rose de Rescht has a bit of a tendency to blackspot, but if I pull off the blackspotted leaves it is in rebloom within a couple of weeks. I intend to handle this with anti transpirants in future years.
But Marchesa is as perfect a rose as I can find. I would have ten if I had room!!!
Seems like I add a “ must have “ rose to my list with every video you make! Fascinating and helpful as always, thanks Jason
That the reasons why I love old roses Bec if history and stories behind. Love it ! Excellent video ! 👏❤️
Thanks Jin!
Thanks for getting back to this series! Excited that I already have several of the Portlands you mentioned, despite not really making an active effort to collect them specifically. They do somehow seem to be a bit forgotten, so thanks for giving them a spotlight today!
My pleasure.
Thank you for these histories. I'm not a rose collector, per se, but I do love the older heirlooms!
Thank you Jason, I moved at the end of last year and I have a rose in the new garden I was trying to identify and after watching your video I believe it is Jacques Cartier, the perfume is sublime and the colour, petals and (structure of them) are exactly as you show and describe, thank you for an excellent talk and for your vast knowledge on the subject of roses, much appreciated always.
Jacques Cartier is truly a gorgeous rose and I am now on the hunt for a few to include in my garden. I currently have 3 Rose deRescht that I am trying to find a suitable place for. Thanks for the history lesson!
Thanks Jason. Great video.
What can I add after you’r connoisseur and fantastic information on roses. Again I can only thank you. Thank you for sharing.
Marry Christmas Jason. Many blessings to you and your family and your propagating of this magnificent flower.
Thanks Ignacia, and a Merry Christmas to you and yours.
Thanks Jason!
Very much my pleasure!
So interesting, thank you for sharing this history and your knowledge. Love your channel!
Thanks Kyle.
Super. Thank you, Jason
old garden roses gives too much flowers in containers and also in gardens very good video Sir.👍
Hi Jason, like always, you videos clips are very informative! I do think however, I'll have to watch all your history lessons on roses all over again, just to jog my memory... Love it!
Here in SA my roses are about to enter their 2nd flush for the season. ❤️🌹❤️
Thanks Marthin. Everything is going to sleep here - so always nice to hear from gardens in the other hemisphere!
Great Video and the Great Holiday!!
Thanks David - and happy holidays to you as well!
Great video and publicity on Portland roses thanks. I absolutely LOVE them and have a few; trying to acquire more despite the fact my environment is not the most friendly towards them. I'm willing to work harder on these.
Very informative Jason. I have Rose De Rescht and this video has provided great background information.
Happy holidays Jason
Hi Jason,
I enjoy watching all your videos.
I wonder if you have a catalog for all your roses?
I'm working on getting them all online. Our online store has an "Archive" section where I have the basics for most everything I've sold in the past.
Appreciate these informational videos. Could you do a video on the Rugosas? I have a Hansa that was my great grandmother's and love it.
Wonderful information! Maybe you’ve addressed this in a past video that I haven’t watched yet, but wondering if you can share anything about pavement and/or rugosa roses? Where do they fit in with the other rose types? Thank you!
Ok I found your video on Family Tree of Roses! Wow, I can see why you get excited about roses! Great chart!
🌹❤🌹 The confusion swirling around the portland, 'Rose du Roi', is quite amazing...the original is shown to have an extra sepal on the calyx. It apparently has several sports circulating on the market as well..ie; 'Rose du Roi a Fleur Pourpres' and perhaps 'Panachee de Lyon', etc...(if I stand corrected). Its sports may also exhibits this peculiar sepal characteric.
From literature I've encountered, the original Rose du Roi is said to have been initially obtained as a reversion from a sport (forget the name) and propagated by the nursery industry (20th century).
There's also "Pickering's Royal 4 Season's", which I'm not entirely sure is the one rosarians commonly refer to as being the "one in commerce" or if it's at all related to the original. Perhaps you could shed some light on that 🌹...
From my understanding, there's the "original" RdR and the one "in commerce". Either way, they're all splendid roses!
I ❤ portlands!!
Indigo is my favourite; also fertile as a pitilate parent. Has a timid second flush and very fragrant. A deep magenta-purple aging to smoky violet-purple. Wish you could get this rose!!!
Yolande d'Aragon is another favourite; said to be part of the "Trianon" series hybrids by Vibert in France. Tall (similar to some hybrid perpetuals) and different in habit to portlands. It can be stingy towards a second flush in my garden, though; I forgive it for it luxurious blooms and heavy summer perfume 🌹
Duchess of Portland is great for breeding. Very recurrent; a clear bright medium pink and lots of stamens for collecting pollen. The influence of the Apothecary rose can be spotted in its blooms and overall genotype.
*Regarding portland roses....there appears to be a distinction between what's perceived as being the 'true portlands' vs those that have China rose ancestry in them. True portlands predated hybrids influenced by chinese genes. A few examples of "true portlands" include Delembre, Rose du Roi, Duchesse of Portland and a few others. 'Rose de Rescht' is suspected as having a mixed heritage with perhaps some China ancestry. Only DNA can confirm this. An in depth search into each portland variety would help clarify their classes.
Thanks for all your insights on the Portlands. I've been trying to find Indigo for a bit now, and it's definitely on my wishlist.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm Yes, Indigo is quite remarkable. It's been impossible to find ever since Pickering nurseries closed their horticultural business in Ontario. From what I see, it's available in the US.
Jason are you going to do a video about "floribunda" roses?
Yes, I sure will. Thanks.
I've become very interested in older roses. I have 18 roses now, stopping at 20 hahaa ...... so I say
Not gonna happen lol 😂😂😂 talking from experience lol
Good to hear - I keep setting limits too, but everything is subject to renegotiation!
Hey! I was wondering if you could tell me the difference between damask perpetuals and Portland roses?
It's just an alternate name for the class.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm thank you!
Where do you find all of this information about the roses? You have a very detailed information
Thanks. Lots of different places, but my favorite author on the subject is the late Peter Beales
Hi Jason, great video, and a great series. As always, when I watch these, I get pangs of zone envy (I'm in zone 4). How hardy are these Portlands? What about the Duchess of Portland? Would it handle our nasty winters and hot dry summers in the West Kootenays?
Hi Trish. That's one advantage of their parentage - Portlands are rated down to zone 4b. Depending on how sheltered your location (and how much snow cover you get in the winter - more is better) they could be a very good choice for you. I find it interesting that Rose de Rescht (which was a found rose from Iran - apparently no problem with warm weather!) is also recommended by the Swedish Rose Society for northern growing cimates.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm Wonderful! I'll add Duchess of Portland to my wish-list, and hope that you'll consider propagating a few when when you choose your roses for the season.
This is so cool! Thank you so much for making this video :) . I wanted to ask you about the 'repeat' of some of these roses. Like Rose de Rescht and Comte de Chambord, I heard quite conflicting information about their repeat. Some say they repeat well like the HTs and others say that there's few if any repeat between a Spring and an Autumn flush. How do they repeat for you?
I get more or less continuous scattered flowering from Duchess of Portland itself. Jacques Cartier and Rose de Rescht give me 3 main flushes, with a few blooms in between. We have a pretty long season though.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm Jacques Cartier may have to do with climate. I have two new ones. They bloom every month for me, but then I am in zone 5b. I also should add that I give my roses seaweed emulsion every month.
The first one shot up to five feet the first season and has a secondary cane that bends and gives me lots more blooms because it is more horizontal. The second one, installed this April, is much shorter but blooming well I should add that I got mine from Antique Rose Emporium, just like my first one years ago. They ship two-gallon roses, and I find that they bloom very quickly, with multiple blooms and flushes in the first season.
Can you do a tour of your indoor plants?
Thanks, but not all that much to see - most of my growing is outdoors!
Revisiting this site...just a note here that the 'Duchess of Portland' is 100% cane hardy to -35 C (-31 F) and holds up well to freezing rain in zones 4/5, where most portlands suffer winter kill under such conditons. It mimics its Apothecary relative in flower form and strong spicy gallica fragrance. Likely pertains to the class of Portlands developed prior to when China roses first invaded Europe (which notably compromised the hardiness in subsequent hybrids), the 'Duchess of Portland hardens off to a woody texture over winter. So amazing it posesses that re-bloming trait coupled with cane hardiness; a rarity with most roses on today's market. Concerning recurrency, its meager flush in late August pales to the spectacular & breathtaking display it puts out in June, where its perfume pervades a yard in the morning and may waft inside a house if planted nearby. Though it blooms on both old & new wood, it's to be treated/pruned like a once-blooming shrub, being mindful of the flowering wood. Disease can be a drawback in cold, wet, humid conditions, otherwise; excellent for cold climate areas. Grows 4' tall x 3' wide.
Thanks for adding your knowledge on the topic
Rewatch this video again. A local seller is selling Rose de Resct at an affordable price, so it's in my next week to buy list. And i'm trying to see if there are other classic roses i could included in that list of mine :)
Nice! Always good to see some of the classics available locally.
Jason, I have a question. I planted a rose and it died. The next year I put a rose in the same hole, it also died. but it had some help from something that dug into the roots, and actually was tearing up the roots. Is there such a thing as a death hole, also what may have caused the damage. Love your channel.
Thanks John. It's generally some sort of rodent. Gophers or voles. In an unrelated cause of concern for using the same planing hole, there's specific replant disease: a long established rose will have supported a whole range of related soil life in the planting hole. If you later remove and replace in the same soil, the new rose roots may have trouble with this long-established soil life. They also call is "rose sickness" or "soil sickness". But like I said, it's usually only if you place a young rose directly in the same spot as a long-established rose.
🤩🤩🤩
What do you think about easy elegance series roses?
You know, I just haven't grown any. I hope someone else can chime in if they've tried any.
Regarding the "genetic mysteries" of those early (French) reblooming hybrids that resulted from crossing Duchesse of Portland with once-blooming gallicas/damask hybrids of the French court, could suggest that the latter (once-bloomers) already carried recessive recurrent genes somehow (as hybrids themselves). Therefore, the recurrent genes in those once-bloomers could then pair up with those of the Duchesse of Portland to produce remontant progeny.
Having said that, I've seen a crazy phenomena in the once-blooming species, r. Virginiana; if dead headed and robbed of its hips during early summer, it will produce an autumn flush trying to re-seed itself again, depending on weather!! It won't do this if its initial hips are left on the plant to ripen after the first flush. Imagine! Not sure if r. gallica or other once-blooming species have this trait. As you can see, it does happen.
I'll be happy to leave the genetics of it as a mystery. If it were as simple as dominant and recessive genes, though, you'd expect that the older gallicas, albas, damasks (and their progeny, the centifolias) would produce reblooming offspring some portion of the time (like left-handedness in humans). Aside from the assumed direct lineage of the Autumn Damask, though, I can't think of any examples. I take your point on some of the near-species hybrids. I've seen this with some of the Scots hybrids (Maigold, Prairie Peace for example) where a mid season prune brings on a scattering of later blooms.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm To my knowledge as a general rule, the idea behind recurrency or repeat-bloom pertains to species evolved in warmer or tropical regions. From an evolutionary perspective, repeat bloomers aren't programmed to shut down for winter and suffer severe cane damage in very cold zones. By contrast, once-blooming species are programmed to flower once, set hip then harden off for super cold winters. One exception being r. rugosa, which is indeed recurrent yet suffers no cane damage whatsoever!
It's hypothesized that the original r. rugosa species was indeed once-blooming and that the recurrent version of this rose was brought about by natural selection via open pollinated crosses with a recurrent variety from the Orient. I'm not sure if a mutation in species progeny would manifest as the repeat blooming trait, similarly to the manner in which mutations have impacted color and petal count. The repeat-blooming tendency of the Autumn damask originates from a recurrent species somewhere in its pedigree, likely from China.
I almost bought a Jacques Cartier but I read that Portlands prefer cooler weather and don't like heat. I'm in zone 7 U.S., do you think it would be worth a try?
We do great with it in zone 8
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm I thought you were located in Canada. I'm in southern U.S.
Yes, Canada. Just east of Vancouver. Because of our coastal proximity, the hardiness zone is oddly similar to warmer latitudes.
That Cartier rose is an absolute stunner. Like something from a lush vintage fashion show.