I came fairly close to falling in to Calvinism. Or, "doctrines of grace" as it was presented. I'm grateful that I didn't fall head-long into it. The thing that honestly turned me away from it was the piety Mike and Leighton speak of. It was like these Calvinists had an air of superiority... yet they'd present it with (false?) humility. At the end of each day, I don't subscribe to Calvinism, Armenianism, or any "ism," which are flawed ideas of man. I'm simply a sinner saved by the blood of Jesus. And Christ lives in me- that just makes me a Christian.
Mike Winger with Leighton Flowers, love it! Mike Winger is such a fantastic exegetical teacher of scripture and he has been a huge influence on my learning and growth as a Christian.
Mike is a huge blessing. He is one of the pastors/preachers/evangellists/teachers that is on my prayer list. I want him to be protected and blessed to continue to teach withh that gracious manner.
I remain opposed to an understanding that diminishes the grace and character of God, the author of love. The peace and assurance He gave me when I chose to repent is evidence enough to me. There were times in the past before my regeneration, where I chose not to repent. The moment I repented was the moment I was regenerated. That was the moment of peace I’ll never forget. I don’t glory in my choice, but rather give glory to God for giving us the choice. I chose to comment on this video. I chose to watch the video, to listen to Mike’s experience. I chose to read some comments. I’m baffled by the Calvinist doctrines. Calvin himself was not someone I would encourage others to follow. The Old Testament refers to free will offerings. Choices are an everyday thing to me. I chose Christ because all else was empty and vain. He didn’t force me. I found too, that all the other points of Calvinism are not edifying or helpful to me in my walk of faith.
When I asked my boss about Calvinism and he was going through it, all I could say was "the God that I believe in is bigger than that". I never got a chance to explain what I meant by that statement, and I actually have difficulty putting it into words. I think basically what I mean is that God is a loving God and isn't going to allow any to perish without being given the opportunity to make a choice. I don't have to twist any scripture to know that Jesus died for everyone.
What you may be trying to articulate is that the human mind cannot reconcile how humans can be given free will and God be totally sovereign. Calvinists think that because those are mutually exclusive according to standard logic then humans must not have free will, but they ignore that they believe many things that counter standard logic for example the concept of infinity. God existing with no origin, with no beginning. God existing outside of time and space. The human brain can't comprehend these things and for some reason they reaaaally get stuck on that one and wrap their whole life around it.
@@thebestSteven Thank you!!! Yes, I think you've explained what I've been thinking and meaning when I say that God is bigger than "that". I find a similar thing with evolution. My basic thinking is I believe the Bible which says that God created everything, then I can believe that He is able to create man and animals in their final form.
This is a non-argument. I suggest you study the issues first before taking a position. One who gives an answer before he hears, It is foolishness and shame to him. (Proverbs 18:13)
Debunking catholicism I'm more blessed than mary Proof = Luke 11:27-28 27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen _________________________ CHRIST alone John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus _________________________ Work of God = John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” _________________________ 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul. Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop _________________________ Jesus said Matthew 23:9 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father. Sad _________________________ Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God Use this to defeat the argument. Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Matthew 12:46-50 46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”. Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” John 19:26-27 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards). By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26. _________________________ We should not pray to apostles Romans 1:25 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Acts 10:25-26 25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” Acts 14:15 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, Revelation 19:10 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 22:8-9 8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God." Colossians 2:18 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Hebrews 7:25 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles _________________________ There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. _________________________ Apostles are allowed to marry, 1 Corinthians 9:1-5 1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry? _________________________ The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic). 1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple 2)He sank down while walking on water 3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan 4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times 5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven 6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear 7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles. 8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land), 9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit), 10)King Soloman messed up, 11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11). Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up) 12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up. 13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20 14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9 If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up. _ Galatians 4:21-26 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. Sarah is mother of all, Not mary Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics Changed the 10 commandments by deleting 2nd commandment, and dividing the 10th into 2 commandments. Also changing the real Saturday Sabbath to fake sunday sabbath.
@@michaelmannucci8585 he knew the argument and that's why he said GOD is bigger than that because HE IS . Calvinism has GOD cursing the majority of us to helk without sayan kitting a finger and receiving much pleasure from GOD'S handiwork in calvinism . Heck , calvinism doesn't even need a satan for anyone yo go to hell because they have GOD doing it for satan . Pretty much doing the will of satan actually , which we find nowhere in scripture . In the Bible GOD loves and cherishes HIS creation , so much that HE sent HIS PRECIOUS SON to reconcile ALL of it to HIMSELF Collossians 1 : 20 . But calvinists once again say no CHRIST didn't come to reconcile ALL but just us . I plead with you to rethink the position you've embraced my friend . There's a reason it's the most minority view in Christianity and especially amongst scholars with high view of scripture. I'm talking about 90% reject the blasphemy of calvinism .
It pretty much is the same with SDA ...JW.. LDS ..Everyone was lost with the understanding of Scripture until the leaders of these heretic ideas came along..Then suddenly they think that everyone else is wrong and they are the right ones...
The Catholics certainly didn't, they think the Pope is Christ's voice on Earth. And Catholics (and off brand Catholics like the Orthodox Church) were 99% of what you had for over a thousand years. Whether it be Calvinism or some other ism, someone during or after the Reformation had to rediscover truths that had been lost throughout the reign of Catholicism.
Mike spoke on reading Romans 9 in and of itself and how you could come away with Calvinist beliefs if you do that, which I agree is totally possible. The problem is, we should never read a chapter by itself. The original manuscripts did not have chapter numbers or verse numbers. Most “books” of the NT are letters, and should be read as such. You don’t take a letter from someone you know and just read a portion of it and put it down to continue a part of it the next day. You read it as a whole. When you read Romans 1-11, you see a lot more clearly that a Calvinistic interpretation is just plain wrong. You start to see the themes come through throughout the letter. This is crucial to see. Read the letters straight through, as it was meant to be written. Colossians 4:16 “After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea.”
I think you may have misunderstood him. He mentioned that he was going through Romans 9 verse by verse and if you take it in it's entirety you cannot come away with Calvinism.
I love hearing you guys talk through “what seems to indicate there are choices and decisions to be made concerning your salvation.” Thanks for the video. When Mike mentioned “regeneration before faith (or at the same time as faith),” these words of Jesus crossed my mind: “When the Son of man comes, will he find faith on the earth?” If I understand Calvinists, they would say, “Of course! God already knows in whom faith will be found.” Why, then, did Jesus ask the question? All of which reminds me to “be careful if you think you stand, lest you fall.” Thanks again for the thought provocation.
Correct! Calvin's god knows who will be found with faith - because he decrees who will be found with faith. Calvinist Paul Helms -quote His foreknowledge is simply his knowledge of what he has decreed. (Divine Foreknowledge - Four Views pg 12) At the foundation of the world - prior to the decree of what each person will be and do - Calvin's god has multiple options from which to choose. But the process of making that CHOICE entails a selection - along with a rejection of all ALTERNATIVES to that which has been selected. Per the doctrine of decrees - for every human event and every human impulse - there is never granted more than ONE SINGLE PREDESTINED RENDERED-CERTAIN option. - In Calvinism - everything without exception is predestined. - Man is granted NO CHOICE in the matter of anything predestined. - Thus man is never granted a CHOICE in the matter of anything.
Debunking catholicism I'm more blessed than mary Proof = Luke 11:27-28 27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen _________________________ CHRIST alone John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus _________________________ Work of God = John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” _________________________ 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul. Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop _________________________ Jesus said Matthew 23:9 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father. Sad _________________________ Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God Use this to defeat the argument. Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Matthew 12:46-50 46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”. Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” John 19:26-27 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards). By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26. _________________________ We should not pray to apostles Romans 1:25 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Acts 10:25-26 25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” Acts 14:15 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, Revelation 19:10 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 22:8-9 8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God." Colossians 2:18 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Hebrews 7:25 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles _________________________ There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. _________________________ Apostles are allowed to marry, 1 Corinthians 9:1-5 1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry? _________________________ The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic). 1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple 2)He sank down while walking on water 3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan 4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times 5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven 6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear 7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles. 8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land), 9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit), 10)King Soloman messed up, 11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11). Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up) 12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up. 13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20 14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9 If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up. _ Galatians 4:21-26 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. Sarah is mother of all, Not mary Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics Changed the 10 commandments by deleting 2nd commandment, and dividing the 10th into 2 commandments. Also changing the real Saturday Sabbath to fake sunday sabbath...
@@Makai77 (Romans 11:1-2) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he "FOREKNEW" (Romans 8:29) For whom he did "FOREKNOW" he also did predestinate to be CONFORMED to the IMAGE OF HIS SON (Isaiah 45:4) for Jacob my servants sake and ISRAEL mine ELECT calvanist have it right they've just inserted themselves instead of the ethnic bloodline Israelites
@@Revelation-cb1rb DW: Per the doctrine - no Calvinist has any CERTAINTY of what he was created/designed for. Calvin's god creates/designs THE MANY - specifically for eternal torment in a lake of fire - for his good pleasure. Calvin's god creates/designs THE MANY within the Calvinist fold as CHAFF. John Calvin explains: -quote But the Lord....instills into their minds such *A SENSE* ....as can be felt *WITHOUT* the Spirit of adoption. (Institutes 3.2.11) -quote he *ILLUMINES ONLY FOR A TIME* to partake of it; then he ....strikes them with even greater blindness (Institutes 3.24.8) Additionally - in Calvinism - the promises within scripture to the believer are classified as the ENUNCIATED will of god. And the SECRET will of god in most cases is the exact opposite. So the Calvinist has NO CERTAINTY if any promise within scripture to the believer applies to himself. Per the doctrine - he has the higher probability of being created/designed for the lake of fire. So he would be wise to prepare himself accordingly.
@@dw6528 Actually it your entire ethnicity that should prepare urselves ( Hebrews 12:16-17 kjv) Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as E S. A U when he would have inherited the blessing, he was REJECTED: for he found NO PLACE OF "REPENTANCE" (Malachi 1:2-4) yet I loved Jacob, And I hated E. S. A. U and they shall call THEM, The border of "WICKEDNESS" and, THE PEOPLE against whom the Lord hath indignation FOREVER (Psalm 11:5-6) The Lord trieth the righteous: but the "WICKED" and him that loveth violence his soul hateth Upon the WICKED he shall rain "FIRE" and "BRIMSTONE" this shall be the portion of their cup (Obadiah 1:18) And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of E. S. A. U for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall NOT BE ANY REMAINING of the house of E. S. A. U. for the LORD hath spoken it THUS SAYETH THE LORD
@@Revelation-cb1rb DW: I give you your own doctrine - and the conclusion which follows from of your own doctrine - and in return - all you have are blind accusations. The scripture calls that "beating at the air" :-D
Yes Arminianism makes so much more sense just like God makes sense all the time. 2 Cor 5:21 "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." If you want to be rich sell everything you have and give it to the poor. “Then Jesus, said to him, “Go sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven…" Matt 19:21 Lose so you can gain! “For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ.” Philippians 3:8 If you want to be exalted, humble yourself. “Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.” James. 4:10 If you want to be first, be last. “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.” Matthew 20:16 If you want to be strong, be weak. “For when I am weak, then I am strong.” 2 Corinthians 12:10 If you want to be free, become a slave. “But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.” Romans 6:22 If you want to live, you must die. “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” Matthew 16:25
Thank you, Dr. Flowers for the work and warnings you're putting out about the dangers of Calvinism. It is greatly appreciated. It's so disappointing to see my Bible College Alumni falling into the trap of Calvinism but it's not entirely unexpected. At the school I graduated from, we were taught Classical/Standard Dispensationalism. This form of doctrine was shaped by the books of golden age professors from Dallas Theological Seminary one of which was Dr. John Walvoord. Both DTS President L.S. Chafer and his protégé, John Walvoord, were Presbyterian and Reformed in background. As taken from Dictionary of Premillennial Theology by Mal Couch, General Editor., "Walvoord defended the Augustinian, Calvinist interpretation of sin, Christ, redemption, and grace (though embracing, as did Chafer, unlimited Atonement). " Is it any surprise that the bridge to Calvinism within the IFCA and their schools is made easy to cross by a hybrid theology of consistently literal hermenutic-influenced Biblical studies combined with Calvinistic thought undergirding their Systematic Theologies? I went to Bible College for ministry preparation and to be inculcated in a better theological environment. It was only marginally better than my former Calvinsitic associations. If I had known then what I know now, I would have chosen another school. This may not have been the best place for this entry to land but it seemed important enough to post here vs. seeking out a more appropriate Soteriology 101 video. I just had to get this off my chest.
I just would like a clarification--in your view the DTS is not Calvinist due to Dispensationalist heritage? I would be interested to know their position, if there is one, on Cessationism, as it's really a dispensationalist doctrine, in that it purports a period of time in which God dealt with the Church in a unique way.
@@duncescotus2342 I had typed out a comprehensive reply in response to your request for a clarification but somehow, I hit a button and all my work is gone. It is getting too late to reproduce it so I will endeavor to type it from memory tomorrow.
"I saw them driven to turn all guidance into blind force - rigidly controlling guidance - and to treat God’s will as nothing but fate. And I was distressed at how often people identified some brutal event as God’s will - even when it clearly came from a decision made by human beings. They then easily moved on to the faith-destroying, even blasphemous idea that everything that happens in this world is caused by God." - Dallas Willard
Leighton Flowers, Steve Gregg, Mike Winger, Dallas Willard, GK Chesterton, CS Lewis, AW Tozer, David Pawson, John Wesley, Leonard Ravenhill, Scot McKnight. I like what these guys are saying. When I was a child and throughout high school, I was taught Calvinism. It took me until my mid-twenties... right around when my prefrontal cortex started working to realize the Bible clearly teaches otherwise. It did a lot of harm to me to be a determinist. I never thought to question it. No one taught me that there was an alternative. No one told me they were teaching me a minority theological position that was extremist. So glad I am free now.
Dallas Willard speaks the truth so powerfully; yet such tenderness. He was not the "shooter from the hip" teacher. Anything he spoke about, he did so with deep respect, with a great deal of study and prayer.
@@christophersnedeker2065 Your biblical God given ethnicity and written judgement says it all - freewill your way out of it (Hebrews 12:16-17 kjv) least there be any fornicator, or profane person, as E S. A U when he would have inherited the blessing, he was REJECTED: for he found NO PLACE OF "REPENTANCE" (Malachi 1:2-4) yet I loved Jacob, And I hated E. S. A. U and they shall call THEM, The border of "WICKEDNESS" and, THE PEOPLE against whom the Lord hath indignation FOREVER (Psalm 11:5-6) The Lord trieth the righteous: but the "WICKED" and him that loveth violence his soul hateth Upon the WICKED he shall rain "FIRE" and "BRIMSTONE" this shall be the portion of their cup (Obadiah 1:18) And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of E. S. A. U for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall NOT BE ANY REMAINING of the house of E. S. A. U. for the LORD hath spoken it THUS SAYETH THE LORD
So if calvinism brings God the most glory and He decrees all things then why aren't all christians calvinist? Wouldn't a God that meticulously controls all things want as much glory as possible?
A similiar logical fallacy occurs when you ask why, if everything is according to God's will, does he express so much unhappiness with human events throughout history. In Genesis 6:6, we read that God regrets even creating Man, so either his _Sovereign Irresistible Will_ doesn't bring him glory, or he has decreed himself not to be happy with his own Sovereign decrees!
@Shop Rat #92 Neither do I. But I do understand that I'm saved by the blood of Jesus. I see no reason to understand an idea of man. I'll just be a Christian- my salvation is secure.
I also was lucky to have read enough for myself that when my Calvinist pastor tried to help me understand, Just reading Romans and Act's carefully without Calvinist Infulence was enough. when my pastor pointed me towards John pipers five points, it just read like something that wasn't in the bible and my gut was right and kept me from taking this to heart.
The TULIP study with Dr. Leighton helped us greatly, along with finding Mike Winger to binge watch. Sadly, we saw Biblical churches torn apart by aggressive takeovers directed by incoming secret reform pastors. The heavy emphasis on that theology was one of the reasons why chose to move to an area where our daughter would not be excluded OR dragged into that life and theology.
@@peterfox7663 Wow, this is from more than three yrs ago? Is the entire discussion up on either of their RUclips channels? Or, might you have a link to it? I'd love to watch it in its entirety.
I have never felt more secure than I do now in what John Piper calls the 7-point Calvinist. It has really opened up Scripture to an amazing and humbling depth.
Arminians HATE the doctrine of predestination, ABSOLUTELY HATE IT. What they are ignorant of is Jacobus Arminius believed in it, so much so that he called it "the foundation of Christianity! "Far from the popular notion that Arminians don’t believe in predestination, the Arminian Articles reflect Jacob Arminius’s belief that predestination is “the foundation of Christianity.” ... Arminians believe that predestination is God’s purpose before the foundation of the world to save believers in Christ and to condemn unbelievers outside of Christ. In other words, predestination is the gospel."
Exactly! This argumentation regarding what gives God the most glory is bizarre. I too find myself rejecting this as any kind of basis for substantiating Calvinism. The Bible ought to be your ONLY source for determining truth, not man's musings on what most glorifies God. God is infinitely glorified. Nothing can diminish His glory!
After getting deep into the weeds as to why Calvinism as presented today is not Biblically sound, this video was so helpful at hitting some of the main problems. And on a side note: why does any honest Christian think Calvinism brings God more glory than the truth that He sovereignly created us in His image with the ability to respond to His salvation…? That is far more glorious than what is being said of the character of God on the other side.
I’d like to learn more about open theism. Can you direct me to content if you know of any that I can hear about it? What is the opposite of open theism? Thanks!
@Ril k Also, the opposite of Open Theism is Classical Theism (not Calvinism, although there's a lot of overlap.) I reject Classical Theism because I don't think it's consistent with the Bible.
I question many denomination's salvation. Catholicism, Orthodox, Jehovah's Witnesses, because their denominations aren't biblical. Aside from the extremes like those, I'm very broad as far as denominations go. Methodists, Baptists, Church of God, Presbyterians, most denominations are fine, and even the extreme ones like Catholicism I believe still have genuine believers within them (though they're few and far between).
I do lean on the reform side but I really love both of you are doing. Thank you! Just a simple question. If God truly desires ALL men to be saves? then Why does God didn't give equal/fair opportunity to every one to receive the Gospel?
Good question, but here is your Calvinism showing up. You said "if" God desires all to be saved. The Bible plainly says that He does. This goes against your philosophy that God always gets what He wants. His will isn't always accomplished, that is why we are to pray that it will. When I have sinned, it went against His desire and will. And He was never glorified with it. Have a great day. 😀
@@drjcw i already said that I'm leaning on the reform side which is practically Calvinistic. And about the question, what I am pointing out is not the "if" but the "ALL". If all are to be saved, why doesn't everyone have the fair opportunity to hear/receive the Gospel? And btw, I am here in Vietnam right now. And I tell you, so many people here never even heard of name Jesus.
@@kyontv6826 If all are saved we do not need to know anything about salvation it will just happen. Calvinism makes very little sense. God choose who he is going to send to hell with no option for them. Why would a good God bother creating them. So much for God is love and merciful and just. Hell is going to be, well... hell. It will be man's failure to understand that believing the right thing is really important. If Jesus is the truth. Way, truth , life, you know. If you seek truth the Lord will bring it you way.
@@brucewinningham4959 Calvanist are no different than any other self professed modern day Christian - your ethnic people for instance - you folks created the replacement image of Christ - every denomination of Christianity and have roamed the globe for nonstop continuous centuries killn stealin n blaspheming yet claim your walking into heaven unpunished - if that's not thinking your fooling God nothing is - unfortunately for you folks is that God already documented in scripture exactly what you would do - he also documented the judgement for said actions ( Hebrews 12:16-17 kjv) Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as E S. A U when he would have inherited the blessing, he was REJECTED: for he found NO PLACE OF "REPENTANCE" (Malachi 1:2-4) yet I loved Jacob, And I hated E. S. A. U and they shall call THEM, The border of "WICKEDNESS" and, THE PEOPLE against whom the Lord hath indignation FOREVER (Psalm 11:5-6) The Lord trieth the righteous: but the "WICKED" and him that loveth violence his soul hateth Upon the WICKED he shall rain "FIRE" and "BRIMSTONE" this shall be the portion of their cup (Obadiah 1:18) And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of E. S. A. U for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall NOT BE ANY REMAINING of the house of E. S. A. U. for the LORD hath spoken it (not 1 remaining) THUS SAYETH THE LORD
I’d posit the Shikinah is a heck of a lot more than that. The meaning is to dwell. The Calvinistic glory have no idea how God functions with His creation. It is all based on presumption and Medieval mumbo jumbo rather than biblical exegesis.
@@omnitheus5442 (Romans 11:1-2) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he "FOREKNEW" (Romans 8:29) For whom he did "FOREKNOW" he also did predestinate to be CONFORMED to the IMAGE OF HIS SON (Isaiah 45:4) for Jacob my servants sake and ISRAEL mine ELECT calvanist have it right they've just inserted themselves instead of the ethnic bloodline Israelites
I think many young preacher boys are drawn to Calvinism because they finally hear someone talk about Bible doctrine with persuasiveness. The teachers usually come across with authority. I was almost persuaded and did listen to several of the Calvinist preachers because they sounded smart. The other issue is that growing up we don't hear a lot of good arguments against Calvinism and not a lot of good answers about the subject.
@@mccaboy Calvanist have it right - they've just inserted themselves instead of the ethnic Israelites - it's really no different than any other modern day Christian doctrine - yet when the scriptures are actually read we see that Christ Isaiah Peter the angel of the Lord n Paul make it clear that Christ's sacrifice was for ethnic bloodline Israelites ONLY - who's lying the bible or christianity ISAIAH (Isaiah 53:5,8) and with his "STRIPES" WE are healed He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of "MY PEOPLE" was he stricken PETER (1st Peter 2:24) Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that WE, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose "STRIPES" WE were healed GOD'S ANGEL (Matthew 1:21) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save HIS PEOPLE from THEIR SINS (Matthew 2:6) 6And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule MY PEOPLE ISRAEL PAUL (Romans 9:3-5) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for MY BRETHREN, my kinsmen according to the "FLESH" who are ISRAELITES; to whom pertaineth the ADOPTION, and the GLORY, and the "COVENANTS" and the giving of the LAW, and the service of God, and the "PROMISES" whose are the fathers, and of WHOM AS CONCERNING THE "FLESH" CHRIST CAME CHRIST (Matthew 15:24) I am NOT sent but unto the Lost sheep of the house of ISRAEL
@@mccaboy I'm in agreement with Christ Isaiah Peter the angel of the Lord n apostle Paul who cares what calvanist or modern day Christians believe - are you calling God's written word a lie and his anoited lying schizophrenics?? read it again ISAIAH (Isaiah 53:5,8) and with his "STRIPES" WE are healed He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of "MY PEOPLE" was he stricken PETER (1st Peter 2:24) Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that WE, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose "STRIPES" WE were healed GOD'S ANGEL (Matthew 1:21) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save HIS PEOPLE from THEIR SINS (Matthew 2:6) 6And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule MY PEOPLE ISRAEL PAUL (Romans 9:3-5) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for MY BRETHREN, my kinsmen according to the "FLESH" who are ISRAELITES; to whom pertaineth the ADOPTION, and the GLORY, and the "COVENANTS" and the giving of the LAW, and the service of God, and the "PROMISES" whose are the fathers, and of WHOM AS CONCERNING THE "FLESH" CHRIST CAME CHRIST (Matthew 15:24) I am NOT sent but unto the Lost sheep of the house of ISRAEL
I do not think that the argument about a loving God torturing babies is an emotional one eventhough it evokes strong emotions. It is a complete logical contradiction to say that a God of self-sacrificial love creates people for hell to glorify Himself when He is already maximally glorious. It also contradicts the Bible on how it defines God's love to be. I cannot see how Calvinists reconcile this contradiction. You either give up God's most important attribute, love or you hold to a logical contradiction.
@@RoyceVanBlaricome "Of course it is." Of course it is not, and the reason why that is so was provided in the next paragraph. "Why? Where is the Logic that distinguishes that from Opinion?" Where is the logic that proves it is not a logical contradiction? Turning the question around does not resolve what people find repulsive about Calvinism. The onus is on you to prove that your perspective is correct because no one using the common understanding of the word "love" or "sovereignty" finds it consistently applicable to the Calvinist God. That is why Calvinists like R.C. Sproul, John F. McArthur and John Piper admit that it is difficult to accept. "First, you've not established any contradiction has been made." "How so?" Sorry but no. The Calvinist God is a contradiction when you expose their idiosyncratic definitions of words like "love" and "sovereignty". I only need to reject your definitions and all the contradictions become clearer than water. Self-glorification at the expense of the opportunity to show love is the complete opposite of what the Bible defines love to be: 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Matthew 5:43 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, Ephesians 5:2 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. 1 John4:7-16 Knowing God Through Love 7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. Seeing God Through Love 12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him. Titus 2:14 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. None of the descriptions and definitions of love in the Bible are logically consistent with the idea that God creates people for hell to glorify himself. Love is simply not self-seeking and definitely not at the expense of the suffering of others. Try and refute this without redefining terms please, we simply do not acknowledge the Calvinist dictionary because it is full of presuppositions that are the very subject being debated, ergo circular reasoning. "Second, your inability to see something doesn't make that something a contradiction." It is so convenient to label logical contradictions as "mysteries". I can simply flip this back at you, it is just a mystery how Man can have libertarian free will and God can be sovereign, we can dismiss double predestination using this mystery and just because you do not understand it does not make it a contradiction.
I was saved for 7 years before I even found out what Calvinism was and I thank God for that. I ended up visiting a close friends “biblical” church and could not put my finger on it but there was no JOY. I couldn’t figure out why everyone seemed depressed so I started looking into the church online. I soon found out they were Calvinist. Once I found out what Calvinist believed I was blown away. This lead to literally 12 hour long conversations with my friend going back and forth with scriptures. I even tried to accept it in my mind and open up to it mentally just to see if it was true. And not for one second could I. I truly believe Calvinism is evil. That being said I still have a lot of friends lol correction a couple of Calvinist friends.. and I love them. You won’t read the Bible and come away a Calvinist.. someone has to push that doctrine on You seriously.
Calvinism is evil, you are correct. I've seen that joyless false humility in a fellowship with a large amount of Calvinists (and the leadership being 100% Calvinist). I was a member for 13 years or so and eventually noticed that ALL of Scripture was taught through the prism of Calvinism. There just wasn't any joy, any life, any wonderment. They were like robots. In the finish, I came to understand that there was little to no true faith either. When they were tested, nobody even enquired of the Lord. I tried to help them see but not being a theologian counted against me. The intellectual snobbery and pride was off the scale. May God have mercy on them.
@@GaliscesGamingFrom Augustine who, prior to his conversion was a Manichaeistic Gnostic and reverted back to it in the last 18 years of his life. Luther who was an Augustinian monk prior to his conversion - and was strongly influenced by him - also imbibed this ideology/philosophy.
couple this "more pious = better" strategy with the crueler side of it, which is the use of moralistic shame-tactics: "that makes you a Synergist! that's evil!"; if synergism is true, I want to be a synergist, and it doesnt really matter what you think!
I think the conundrum happens when we assume God can only act in 1 of two ways...that being total determinism or in giving total free will. But I think the Bible more clearly shows us that God gives us free will, but he can at any time decide to intervene in that free will at any time for his purposes, he has clearly done that for SOME but not all...so for that moment that person is no longer free but bound by God's will. And as soon as that intervention is done whether for a moment or for weeks and months like pharaoh, they are then free again. Now you could go circular and say that means they never were ACTUALLY free willed, but that's just a cop out. Just because someone gets locked up in a jail for two years and forced on a schedule, doesn't negate their free will that happens before or after that time period. Secondly, It seems to me that free willed man gives God MORE glory in that he shows his power over free will creatures, than him playing with dolls... because no one has ever looked at a child playing with toys and said "wow, look at all the glory and power they get from their determination of the dolls actions"...but in contrast, think of all the glory an undefeated fighter gets because even despite the opposing forces, they always come out on top. That is true power. That is true sovereignty. That is true glory.
@@Revelation-cb1rb that doesn't change anything. It just means that in the beginning of time, he declared what the end result would be. And this end happens DESPITE the choices that man would make in between the two. Let's bring the fighter analogy into more perspective...the champion fighter (God) goes to the ring knowing he is more powerful then anyone else who steps in there, so he knows from the beginning that in the end he will win. It doesn't matter how many punches the opponent throws, how many rounds it lasts, in the end, God wins, and he doesn't have to determine and control every punch, block and step in order to ensure that happens. He could declare it is the end with a final blow and nothing can stop that, but up to that point, the opposer gets to try as hard as he wants to thwart it and fight and get knocked out, or he can surrender in humility, but either way God wins.
@@BEABEREAN10 Your analogy undermines God's sovereignty - he controls every step of everything - even the birds don't fly south without his instructions to do so - example - "Habakkuk 2:2-5" - how did he know?? (Proverbs 20:24) Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
@@Revelation-cb1rb just saying I am undermining God's sovereignty doesn't make it true. No where does the Bible say that God's sovereignty depends on his control at every moment of time. That's a conclusion that Calvinist/determinists have come to by their own logic, not by what the bible says is required. And there is opposing logic that stands to make God's sovereignty even greater as he usurps his power over free will beings. But I digress... Habakkuk 2 has nothing to do with God being in power over actions. It's about God knowing the outcome. You have to read determination into that. God doesn't have to determine actions to know what will happen and if you think he does, then you are the one limiting his power and abilities. The closest Bible verse that says God determines actions of birds is job 39:27 - does the eagle soar at your command and build it's nest on high? Yes, God put the ability and nature of an eagle to do these things, but it doesn't mean he purposes every place the eagle flies and builds. The verse doesn't say that. Lastly, great job grabbing one proverb to found a doctrine of total determinism....what about Psalm 37:23...that it's actually the steps of a good man which are ordered by the lord....this doesn't say God has his hand in the steps of every man. What about proverbs 3 - trust in the lord with all your heart ...and he will direct your paths? I thought he ALWAYS directed our paths according to divine determination? It's important we build doctrine on the full counsel of the word, not just cherry picked Bible verses.
@@Revelation-cb1rb DW: Thus it follows - the Calvinist brain is not free to discern TRUE from FALSE on any matter. Because doing so would require a LIBERTARIAN choice between TRUE and FALSE. Which is a function which does not exist for the Calvinist brain. And that is why the Calvinist brain is not granted the function of discerning TRUE from FALSE on any matter.
@@RoyceVanBlaricome I didn't know there was a rule I had to answer your question but since it's that important to you....I made the statement because it's the truth and it was related to your comment. My comment did not imply you are a Calvinist in any way and I stand my ground that Tulip is only derived from scriptures when one focusses on proof texts. Change my mind
@@RoyceVanBlaricome Most of the Bible implies free-will. Calvinists, therefore, always point to proof texts and those texts always are about something God either did predestine or a prophecy by God that He made happen upon His timing. But I see you're not really the kind to have a discussion. You have an attitude. Bullet type arguments are annoying. Answer them one by one and you end up writing a book. You take care now
When asked if I am a Calvinist, I reply that I am a Christian above all. I am studying predestination vs free will and remain confused. I want to be able to confidently answer questions from non-believers regarding free will. So far the only explaination that makes me feel comfortable (which may be a bad sign) is something that I read in RC Sproul's book What is Predestination? He writes about the Augustinian view of double predestination in which God does a positive work in the lives of the elect whereas he simply abandons the reprobate to their own desires. I am also conflicted moreso when I read scripture such as Romans 6:44 and then John 3:16. I do not believe that there is conflict between the scriptures, only my lack of understanding. Does anyone know of a basic Soteriology 101 video that explains the nuts and bolts of predestination????
You are a Christian first (and that should be enough) You don’t need to identify yourself with any other doctrine that carries the name of a man, like Calvin. Calvinism is nothing more but a personal interpretation of Scripture turned into doctrine.. (originated from gnosticism by the way, look it up) It is sold as some sort of “higher knowledge” that only becomes clear when you TRULY study Scriptures. (Nope, lots of people that TRULY studied Scriptures yet reject the idea) But the issue with the doctrine is that it creates a lot of contradictions in the Bible.. Because only certain verses of Scripture SEEM to support it on first glance (romans 9) when others clearly teach the exact opposite. Calvinist seem to think there is only one way the right way to interpret romans 9, when there are non-calvinistic interpretations that make much more sense, especially considering they affirm the rest of the Bible instead of contradicting it. Too many times Calvinists HAVE to pull the “mystery” card when they run into such a contradiction, that only exists for them, because they interpret the Bible in a calvinistic way that causes contradictions. I can tell you that no early Christian was trying to figure out if they were a 3 point, 4 point, 5 point CALVINist.. And they did just fine without that doctrine.. So, if the early Christians did just fine without this “knowledge” you will be fine too. Christians didn’t question the sufficiency of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross because not everybody was being saved before Calvin came along. And you will be fine without it too.
@@annikaelisaa1879 Nailed it! And for the triggered, no I'm not going off my "feelings." The comment is simply well thought out, and accurate in regards to church history. ;)
The baseline philosophy of Reformed Theology, i.e. Calvinism, is when confronted with difficult unpleasant questions and criticisms that they have no plausible explanation for they viciously attack the critics character with ad hominem and condescending remarks then use those lies to run away like a frightened little girl, all the while declaring themselves victorious.
@@brentonstanfield5198 No pot calling - simply your biblical God given ethnicity and written judgement ( Hebrews 12:16-17 kjv) Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as E S. A U when he would have inherited the blessing, he was REJECTED: for he found NO PLACE OF "REPENTANCE" (Malachi 1:2-4) yet I loved Jacob, And I hated E. S. A. U and they shall call THEM, The border of "WICKEDNESS" and, THE PEOPLE against whom the Lord hath indignation FOREVER (Psalm 11:5-6) The Lord trieth the righteous: but the "WICKED" and him that loveth violence his soul hateth Upon the WICKED he shall rain "FIRE" and "BRIMSTONE" this shall be the portion of their cup (Obadiah 1:18) And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of E. S. A. U for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall NOT BE ANY REMAINING of the house of E. S. A. U. for the LORD hath spoken it (not 1 remaining) THUS SAYETH THE LORD
@@brentonstanfield5198 --- lol! You have had plenty of opportunities to step up to the plate to enlighten us all with your brilliant commentary, but you have *NEVER* once done so; Dr. Flowers cuts you off at the ankles every time you open your mouth exposing you as a charlatan, but the truth never sinks through that thick skull. The next time you see me say bring an argument feel free to jump in.
@@JohnQPublic11 - Well, I have never opened my mouth… 😂. It has all been written. But no, he rarely engages with me unless I have 150 characters or less.
I've got a few smart home devices and if I ask one of them if it loves me and it says yes I know it's a shallow, silly joke. If I ask my daughter if she loves me and she says yes that means everything to me. It's her choice to love me based on how I try to show her fatherly love as best I can. The entire point of the Bible is FREE WILL. Creating a sea of robots brings zero joy.
I lived in a very large, strong reform city/county. The superiority air was shocking. If someone wasn't Reform, they were considered stupid, uneducated, deluded, weak, silly, etc, etc, etc.....
Leighton makes a good point that there is a place for emotion, although an argument based solely on emotion must not trump the Bible. Last century, and more the century before that, there was an idea floating around, from Gen 9, that in response to Ham's viewing of the naked Noah, God decreed that the descendants of Ham (the African peoples) would be slaves, that the enslavement of the African peoples a couple hundred years ago was how God wanted it to happen. The father of then-famous, or infamous, Duffey Strode, the 10 yr old Pennsylvanian street preacher who screamed and shouted his way onto Oprah, endorsed this "doctrine of servitude." Needless to say, it causes one to recoil emotionally, and that's good. But we also have to refute Biblically: when Noah wakes up with a hang-over and curses his innocent grandchild, and we don't see a "This saith the Lord," then we hesitate to make a doctrine out of it. I also think of another side to the discussion on emotion. After forcing himself to accept Calvinism, witness Piper and Sproul comments of their initial lack of enthusiasm for the intuitively wrong philosophy, the new adherent now has a chance to "own the argument" with the ordinary Joe Christian who has not studied that much Bible and may be too familiar with the Kardashians instead. This can beef up one's pride: knee-capping the initial emotional response (understandable) then stumping the novice with verses from Romans 9 or their other dozen proof texts. "He had no answer. My position is correctamundo." I know the feeling as a former fundamental separatist who had the separation verses memorized (2 Cor 6:17, Eph 5:11, Romans 16:17, 2 Tim 3:5). Trust me, it makes your flesh feel good to tell others how wrong their church is and cite memory verses that catch them off guard. As a young Christian I was initially stumped by a Calvinist who cited verses that I did not even know existed, the same way I would later stump Leighton's fellow Southern Baptists on their naughtiness in not leaving the convention. Had my head handed to me at first. But was just as unconvinced as my Southern Baptist friends who, while they could not refute me in real time, they knew there was something about my position that did not add up. Eph 4:32 - "Be ye kind one to another, forgiving one another..." I left out a key word that means to be emotional about it: tenderhearted.
So do you not believe we are in bondage to sin prior to receiving Christ? If you do believe in “bondage” to sin what else does that imply beside that we are not free?
I liked the approach of going through all of the tenses of the verbs in Romans 9. This is the same approach that Archbishop Dmitri Royster took in his Pastoral Commentary of Romans.
It's ironic but I was really wanting to become a Calvinist because my friend taught me calvanism so he took me to hear John macarthur, I was as ready to receive calvanism as possible but just didn't sense it was right and was looking for John to clarify things for me, then he said that the chief duty of man is to glorify God, and I knew right then that I could never become a Calvinist because it doesn't bring God more glory to create people and not draw them and later torture them for eternity or destroy them.
So did God "create people...to later torture them for eternity or destroy them?" He created exactly two people, Adam and Eve. Ever since then people are procreated by sexual intercourse between a man and a woman. Will you blame God for men and women having sex too? Genesis 5:1 "This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God." So far so good. God's likeness is always good and never evil. Genesis 5:3 "And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth." Hmm, what was Adam's image and likeness? SINFUL, unable to do any righteousness.
The verb endured is not passive in Greek it's fully active. In fact, the only verb in that verse that is passive is prepared and that is probably MIDDLE voice which would definitely change the entire meaning of 9:22. All other verbs are active. Which Greek translation is he using? This is incorrect and if you got this verb tense wrong how many other tenses did you get wrong?
My biggest complaint with Calvinism is that it creates division. As Erik Makai, wrote below, I don't subscribe to any "ism". And if I had to, why not both? Why do we have to have John Calvin as our head? I'm sure this has been pointed out before, but when Paul asks, "Did I die for you? Did Peter? Did Apollos?" Same question applies today. Did Calvin die for me? Did Luther? Did Augustine? Why are we so caught up in "theology" that we allow it to divide the church? If anyone has theology like Calvin, fine. If anyone is an Armeniasism? Fine. You believe in one baptism fine. You believe like Luther, fine. Christ is all. Christ is Lord. True revival cannot happen with a bride that is caught up with details that have no impact on the wedding.
It's not having John Calvin as anyone's head. Calvin just made the set of beliefs and interpretations popular. There is nothing inherently wrong with labels. They provide a way to quickly identify beliefs, understandings, and practices.
@@peterfox7663 I respectfully disagree. Reformed Theology is fine. Calling it Calvinism is not. Although I do not agree that John Calvin set out to have his name identified as a "label", it happened. And for those who use his writings to distinguish their particular understanding of Christianity, then yes, he is a head. Am I condemning them? No. Am I accusing them of putting Calvin before Christ? No. But I disagree with those who say anything outside of Calvinism is heretical just like I disagree with those who call Calvinists heretical.
That is a very good point, did Johnny die for us? They might not even be saved if TULIP is the gospel that saves. But then they can not even be sure that they are saved until after they die.
These two on their own channels convinced me that Calvinism has the wrong interpretation of Romans 9 (basically grew up Calvinist and didn't know there was another biblical way of explaining this passage), but I'm struggling how to find a non-calvinist (Provisionist) church that holds the Bible in high regard. I don't know where to start. I only know pastors in the Calvinist camp. It seems like in my area, it's watered-down mega churches or Calvinists. Does anyone know if there's also a directory that I could go to that's like TGC or Acts 29 but not Calvinist? (Just wondering in case of moving next year in general and just starting over from scratch.) Thanks!
Use those websites to eliminate churches from your list, and listen to sermons online (especially Romans 8 & 9, Ephesians 1, John 6) and it will usually tell you what you need to know
Having the same dilemma. The churches in my area that are non calvinistic do not teach verse by verse through entire books of the Bible. In addition many of these churches are contemporary in their worship style
@@kennethmacgregor6427 Teaching verse by verse is by no means the only way to teach what the Bible says. Do the sermons teach Biblical truths? Sunday school and Bible studies are more opportunities to do that, as well.
@@kennethmacgregor6427 I can appreciate the lack of older worship. I am church shopping and few churches I've visited actually sing hymns, and even fewer out of a hymn book with four part harmonies. For the time being I'll have to settle for more contemporary music and get my hymn fix at home or perhaps visiting other churches from time to time.
To some extent you may have to just put up with a church being Calvinistic if you want them to be respectful of scripture. I'm not saying don't try to find something more "Arminian", but in this day and age you have to put up with what you can find. I find that on grace and good deeds, and the synergy between them, and in my attitude to liturgy I'd best be described as Anglo Catholic, but I can't be a Catholic because of the Mary stuff and there's not many Bible believing Anglican churches out there. So I am in a Church of Scotland congregation with a very biblical minister who is probably more Calvinist in his thinking (though very open to other views).
Back in the 70’s, BF Skinner’s book about determinism, “Beyond Freedom & Dignity” was published. According to him, there is no freewill. We are total products of our environment and genes. Calvinism also maintains there is no freewill. But instead of all powerful environmental and genetic forces, an all powerful God pulls all the strings. Resulting in Determinism. Essentially the same thing.
Calvinism does NOT give God more glory!! It makes Him the author of evil (if he controls/determines all our actions and thoughts), makes Him unfair and unjust (arbitrarily loving some and not others and choosing some and not others for salvation even though we are all sinners), makes Him unkind (creating people only to predetermine/damn them to hell), makes Him a liar (saying Jesus died for all), and makes Him a deceiver (making some people believe false doctrines). It is offensive to the nature of God and is just so ridiculous! I hope Mike and Leighton do some more videos together 👍🙏😉 Thanks to you both in helping to guide me toward TRUTH 😁👍🙏
Quote " [God] ...controls/determines all our actions and thoughts. Prov. 16:9 “The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.” Prov. 16:3. “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord." Prov. 19:21 “Many plans are in a man’s heart, but the counsel of the Lord will stand.” Jer. 10:23 “I know, O Lord, that a man’s way is not in himself, nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.” Quote "...choosing some and not others for salvation." John 15:16 “You didn’t choose me. I chose you. I appointed you to go and produce lasting fruit, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask for, using my name.”John 15:19 “...I have chosen you out of the world.” John 6:44 “For no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws them to Me, and at the last day I will raise them up.” I have found about 40 others passages that say the same thing if you would like to see them. Quote "[God] creating people only to predetermine/damn them to hell." Rom 8:29 "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."Rom 8:30 "Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." Eph 1:5 "[God] predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." Eph 1:11 "In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will." Hmm, NO mention of condemning ANYONE to Hell in ANY of these passages. WE condemn ourselves to Hell, God does not. Quote "[Calvinists] make Him [God] a liar (saying Jesus died for all.) Calvinists DO say that Jesus DID die for all as it is biblical. 2 Cor 5:15 "He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again." Don't believe everything that Flowers & Winger says about Calvinists. Augustinianism (from which John Calvin got his theology from) predates Arminianism by about 1300 years. Some SCRIPTURE you should read. Dan 4:35 “All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him. “What have You done?’ God is 100% sovereign. Deuteronomy 32:39 "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand." So much for the sweet grandfather in heaven. 1 Sam 16:19 “Then He [God] struck the [Hebrew] men of Beth Shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD. He struck fifty thousand and seventy men of the people, and the people lamented because the LORD had struck the people with a great slaughter.” Ya better follow His commands are else. Deut 20:16 “But of the cities of these peoples which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance, you shall let nothing that breathes remain alive, but you shall utterly destroy them..." Wow, this seems cruel, but I will not judge God like Arminians do calling Him a monster and so forth. Joshua 6:21 “Then the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city. And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, ox and sheep and donkey, with the edge of the sword.” No grandfather in heaven stroking a kitten in His lap here. Amos 3:6 “Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" Isaiah 45:7 KJV "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." By the way the term "free will", that darling of Arminians is not found ANYWHERE in the New Testament.
When I first heard about Calvinism I also thought "naaah that's not right" Well okay I thought naaah how can anyone read the bible and believe that God can be so cruel as to choose some to hell without giving them the choice to believe the gospel - was difficult to believe people believe this stuff. Never thought back then that Calvinism is this huge, I love hight it would maybe be as big as king james onlyism.
Yes! And when you dig deeper - you will find - a consequence of the doctrine of decrees - is that man is granted NO CHOICE in the matter of anything - because for every human event - and every human impulse - there is never granted more than ONE SINGLE PREDESTINED RENDERED-CERTAIN option. And man is granted NO CHOICE in the matter of what that option will be - and no ability to refrain.
Choosing who is saved doesn't make God cruel. See, He chooses under Arminianism too. Think about it. He has the power, He has the knowledge, He knows how to bring you to salvation without breaking your free will. We as human beings lead people to make choices all the time, and it doesn't break their free will. However God does not do that for everybody, therefore He's choosing not to do that for everybody, therefore in a sense He's choosing for them to go to Hell.
My concern with Calvinism is that it BUILDS another Jesus out of wood that becomes an idol and the members of God's house that become Calvinists become vessels of dishonor in God's house. Calvinism was constructed by the wisdom of the world which is of the EARTH so those that swallow the doctrine of Calvinism BUILD upon a foundation made of WOOD...Channels such as Leightons are made to BURN that house down so Calvinists can stand on the foundation of truth and be REFORMED into a vessel of honor. 2 Timothy 2 20 But IN A GREAT HOUSE there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. We are vessels made of CLAY that are FORMED by the doctrines we SWALLOW. God will use us in whatever form we become and He can do this because He is our Creator and He can do whatever He wants to do with us TO MAKE HIS POWER KNOWN so that we can know that HE is God. Doctrines come into God's house and DIVIDE the house which is Satan's will to make us look like fools in the eyes of those in the house of the wicked so they don't have the desire to come into this mess we created...There are people in the house of the wicked that are SEARCHING for the way out and it is our service to BRING them the way so they can FIND it...they aren't searching for God per se, but they are searching for THE WAY OUT, they just don't know that the way out is THROUGH Christ Jesus so we must persuade them to believe so they can be set free...the gospel is sent into the world to FIND them that do not HAVE PLEASURE in unrighteousness to enable them to FIND the way out and be set free...we are in a WAR against the wisdom of the world that forms men into unbelievers which keeps them locked up in the house of the wicked. Proverbs 24:3 “Through wisdom is an house builded; and by understanding it is established:” Colossians 4:5 “Walk in wisdom toward them that are without/OUTSIDE, redeeming the time.” Colossians 1:28 “Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:” 1 Corinthians 3:9 “For we are labourers TOGETHER WITH GOD: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.” God chose to work TOGETHER with His creatures to BUILD His house and the GOOD NEWS is that anyone can COME to Him through the testimony of Christ Jesus and be made PERFECT IN HIM. OUTSIDE of Christ Jesus = imperfect IN Christ Jesus = made perfect because only HE IS PERFECT. If a man is found OUTSIDE of Christ it's because that man SWALLOWED the WISDOM OF THE WORLD that taught then that he/she is perfect just the way they are and that is unacceptable because the truth has been MADE KNOWN, therefore ignorance is no longer an excuse...If a man is found with ignorance IN them that is only because they REFUSED to SWALLOW the truth when it was delivered to them by God's faithful, loving, kind, EXHAUSTED servants of righteousness...The way OUT of unrighteousness is THROUGH the faith of Christ Jesus...GULP🦾😁 2 Thessalonians 2 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but HAD PLEASURE IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. Ephesians 4:18 “Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the IGNORANCE that is IN them; because of the blindness of their heart:” Acts 17 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; BUT NOW commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.💌
I'm not a Calvanist and never have been, and just like Mike, I also thought that this system doesn't harmonize with all of Scripture. I also think that it's pretty suspicious if the Church had no such interpretation of how Eternal Salvation works out in regards to the Saints for roughly 1600 years of Church history. A dear brother of mine who doesn't adhere to Calvinism either told me something I found interesting. He said "Worship like a Calvanist, but preach like an Arminian."
I had these views long before encountering your channel... but I got there because the greater context is obvious, as Mike suggests. These days I get concerned with the obsession over Calvinism more than Calvinism itself. On free will, it seems to me that it is the being created with free will that defines our depravity. Even if we were to choose God, it would be our own will, apart from God's will. This free will is insufficient regardless of choice. The fall is the point of manifestation of our free will in a choice to exercise it to an end that demonstrates our separation from God. This was always God's plan as John notes about The Word being present at the very beginning of all things.
Yes, well said. Romans follows a pattern, which Paul discloses early on--"to the Jew first and also to the Greek" (Romans 1:16). But his argumentation tends to reverse the pattern: he deals with Gentile godlessness in chapter one, and Judaic hypocrisy in chapter two, though he doesn't specifically pin the blame by naming names. The phrase "to the Jew first" comes up a few times, if I'm not mistaken, as a kind of reminder of Paul's basic concern. The Gospel has uprooted Judaism in a major way, and yet hasn't. The root remains, but lives through the ingrafted branch. Chapter 9 is misunderstood, because it acts a break in Paul's line of argumentation, disconnecting chapter 8 from 10. The argument might be understood as going 8, 10, which deal with the believer's status in the righteousness which is not from the Law, then 9 and 11, which deal with Israel and covenantal issues. The above is an oversimplification, but basically helpful.
Romans 9:22-23 "In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction. He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory."
My experience with calvinism was like this. I was raised in church, and was familiar with the whole bible. I had just finished a time in my life where I was listening to Christian radio preaching by 4 different pastors, 2 -3 hours a day, every Day for 4 years. One was John McArthur. Then I was exposed to calvinist doctrine. At first I was put off, because every point they made, I could think of bible verses directly contradicting them. Then I realized, that John McArthur had very different meanings and implications all that time, which I never understood. So I knew the "double speak" that was being employed. I was still ignorant of a lot of calvinism, but my first impression was they were being weird with scripture, and didn't clearly teach what they meant.
DW: Wonderful Testimony!!! Especially where you discerned the degree to which Calvinism is DOUBLE-SPEAK!! The very reason men like McArthur and Piper are voices of influence within Calvinism - is because they are experts in its DOUBLE-SPEAK. God gave you discernment! God is good! :-]
(Luke 8:11) “Now the parable is this: *the seed is the word of God.* (Luke 8:12) *“Those beside the road are those who have heard;* then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that *_they will not believe_* _and be saved._
I'm a Calvinist/ have reformed theology. This is mainly due to after being saved, listening to sermons from Voddie Bachum, Paul Washer, and John MacArthur. I am first and foremost a Christian and boast in nothing but Christ and Christ crucified. I use the title of Calvinism in order to couch and define my own beliefs on soteriology, eschatology, and the solas. I attend and serve in a non-denominational "Mega-Church" Why? because that's where God has put me and I have a spiritual family that loves me. What concerns me is the absolute vitriol I see in comments from other Christians. Instead of rebutting ideas and theology (of which we both might be wrong) in a loving manner, or talking about things we agree on, we (Calvinists) are called: heretics, prideful, boastful, unbelievers, unintelligent, people who don't read their Bibles or care for doctrine, lovers of man more than God, twisters of scripture, idolaters, etc. There are Christians assuming or telling other Christians who are Calvinists, whom go to church, worship, pray, tithe, do missionary work, evangelize, that they don't love God. Why? I don't think Armenians are loving the wrong God and hating the right one, I don't believe that they are intentionally leading people astray and damning them, but why is that grace not extended to Calvinists. From what I've seen in comment sections it seems as though non-Calvinists view us not as brothers (who have differing opinions or interpretations), but legitimate enemies to the Faith. Why? I have seen people hyperbolize the "dangers" of a specific theology to be greater than that of unbelief. So please, I urge you brethren respond to each other in grace, love, and compassion, (that doesn't include commendation or harsh rebuke for someone whose view on the specificities of atonement is different from yours.) We are ALL growing in Christ and none of us will ever understand, let alone know it all, on this side of eternity.
@@dirkfirkle No. If I was meeting someone new at my house, and I knew only one thing about them. That he/she was super allergic to dairy products. If I offered the person some ice cream, that I didn't have, knowing the person wouldn't accept it, that would be dishonest on my part. In limited atonement, God is offering something He doesn't have (atonement) to certain people. That would be dishonest. Add to that, the inability to pray for that person to be saved, after preaching the gospel to them. Your prayer for their salvation would be sin. In Calvinism, God already made that decision. So in many cases, if you pray to God to save that person, you would be disagreeing with God's decision, as if you are smarter than God. Because in many cases God already decided He was not going to save him/her. If God did decide to save that person, then you would be praying to God to save, as if reminding Him about it. Just in case He forgot or something.
you can believe that , but , that is literally what it says .. Believe the written word first .. theologize as necessary , not the other way around.. saying a catchy phrase can lead many astray
Calvinism is not more pious! It does not bring God more glory! What’s easier, for God to predetermine everything and therefore know the outcome OR for God to give legitimate free will and still have the kingdom of darkness in checkmate? Definitely the second which is far more impressive. God is too good to be beat, He doesn’t need to “cheat” His own design for nature including human beings by predetermining their choices. He sees, He knows, and yet He loves SO much He still actually cares to send His people by His Spirit to witness to all, even those He knows will reject. He takes NO PLEASURE in the death of the wicked. He wants all to repent, but will not force it. Just like He didn’t force Adam and Eve to NOT eat from the tree. He could have, but in His TRUE sovereignty, He decided to let them choose while compelling them to choose “life”.
I’m sort of in the middle right now, it seems I’m a Calvinist Tuesday and an Armenian Wednesday and somewhere I’m between on Thursday 😂. So please forgive me but would it be fair to say that God 1:has every thing down to the movements of an atom planned out And 2: actually allows human beings to make a free will choice to accept Christ. And 3:the last two need to be in harmony?
im dealing with issues in my relationship with God, ive been introduce into calvinism i was like 6 months of faith and since then im not a peace and its really annoying to try to comprehend what is right in the pratice of my faith. Im so exhausted, i have friends who are calvinists, and some friends that are not, and im always standing in the between. im wonder what should i be doing and it really hurts, i also sense that i dont have the intimacy that i had with God and his spirit as i had in the bgining. i don't know if its because i kind of been passive and pushed the thinking too far as if i didn't need to do anything ( cause God was in control) wich brang me far from humility and submission to God and in piety. And it is my fault. I dont think calvinism is (bad) i think that it is dangerous maybe to wrongly interpret it ? Im just so confuse about this and frankly i just wish i never knew this doctrine, cause now its like i can't remove that thinking and that way of interpreting.. I just want to serve God. im at 5 years of conversion and i had like 1 good year of bold faith and fire ... I dont think that christian life is what im living right now and all of that brings me also a lot of condemnation. At the time I started to think that i didn't want to believe something that wasn't true, and calvinism was the thing that seemed the truth of ( how) to live the faith. I was kind of feeling stupid to believe something else (because of LOGIC) that is in the doctrine itself.and the bible and the glory of God and his sovereignty so i just grabbed onto it. Im trying to deconstruct that but at the same time i always have things that bring me back to it everytime.. i talk to someone and it makes me doubt about my position about calvinism.. and after that i read some book who talks about calvinism and i see things in a way ive never though about and im like wooahh.. and here we go still confused.... its really annoying.. sorry for letting that out like that. it is heavy on my heart for a long time now. Im kind of scared to talk about this at my church since ( calvinism is what most people believe i think) .. so im kind of ashamed to question that.. and i doubt i will get the right answers ? .. All of that do not proceeds of faith.. its questions and doubts instead of trusting in the person of Jesus. thank you for what you do, i realise how i must approach God or the way i pratice faith with such humility when i interpret, think or practice these things.. they have so much weight and importance. God bless you all..
Alexandre, wow thank you for sharing. I would encourage you to take an extended break from the controversy. It might be an important season for you to simply pursue receiving God's love, pursue following Jesus, and pursue walking in the Spirit and growing in knowledge of the Scriptures in a big picture way. Are you familiar with the category of books on Spiritual Formation? It's essentially focusing on applying spiritual theology, walking with God in prayer, receiving His love, and cultivating intimacy with the Lord. There can be a time later to come back and re-attempt to work out your position regarding Calvinism. But bigger things are at stake for you at the moment. Blessings!
@@chaddonal4331 thank you ! Im going to try to do this ! I think it’s better if i close RUclips and all the influences outside of the Bible, and return to the basics. Thank you for your words and your grace, may the Lord bless you in his goodness.
I want to follow up on how you are doing. I actually am right now in the same boat and because I saw your comment and that it is exactly what I am going through, feelings and doubt and all, I realize this is how bad Calvinism is. It’s BAD. And this comment helped me see its harm. I hope you are doing better and have found more ground with God and are closer with Him than ever before
Hey, thank you very much for the follow up, it is better than before, i wouldn't say that calvinism is bad cause it is a description of the miraculous sovereignty of God, but it can get complicated for a young christian to navigate in big theology of predestination, free-will, personnal responsability of men. Now i see why God brought me there and he is still holding me. I was simply not trusting in him, and i was not being in love with him, it was my flesh if i can say it like that. Because i was focusing on what (i ) had to (do) i wanted to believe the right thing. Beliving was a work for salvation in a kind of way for me, i didn't act on it like that but inwardly this is what"s going on and sometimes i was putting hard weights on myself , ( my own rules). and i still do...im thinking to myself, if i would be God i would be demanding i would want things to be pefect, no right to make a mistake ( that is a lie from the devil) .. but it was fitting with my old nature ( my flesh).. wich is dead... Thats the plan of the devil, that make us think we are like God, tht we know better, that we are not enough for him and that he is not that good towards us. As i grow i understand that phase that i was in a lot better and it was a crushing of my pride, it was kind of a desert, it was a mix of multiple things and i was panicking instead of putting myself in the hands of the potter, could say more things but i will stay short and sweet. Whats is going for you ? How are you ? @@bluestar8700
*TWO EXCELLENT POINTS* Mike: Minute 3:03 “If I ignore Calvinism and read through Romans, then I don’t get (i.e. reach the conclusion of) Calvinism. But! If I start with Calvinism, and then I read Romans 9, I will get (i.e. reach the conclusion of) what I started with”. Mike: Minute 1:08 “Years ago I interacted with Calvinism on a bigger spectrum, because you bump into people who are Calvinists. And in my experience, they generally come at you with philosophy more-so than exegetically looking at the text. But when they do come exegetically, it becomes obviously a few very specific passages, such a Romans 9, Romans 8 and John 6……..” SUGGESTION: Consider the possibility that Calvinism induces a love-hate relationship with its underlying foundational doctrine - EXHAUSTIVE DIVINE DETERMINISM (EDD). - For any instance in which the Calvinist finds EDD palatable - he will treat EDD *AS-IF* it is TRUE - For any instance in which he finds EDD un-palatable - he will treat EDD *AS-IF* it is FALSE And this is the pattern one will observe with the Calvinist reading of scripture. - For any verse in which presupposing EDD leads to a conclusion he finds palatable - he will treat EDD *AS-IF* it is TRUE - For any verse in which presupposing EDD leads to a conclusion he finds un-palatable - he will treat EDD *AS-IF* it is FALSE Consequently - the Calvinist can be found affirming his doctrine in one statement - and denying it the next - without cognition. Embracing EDD produces his condition of DOUBLE-MINDEDNESS.
The aspect of Calvinism I find most troubling, is the (apparent) belief by Calvinists, that all humans are born/made by God, incapable of so much as being saner than those He wiped out in the flood. About whom the Book says; "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Which sounds to me a whole lot like being "totally depraved". The idea that large numbers of people are convinced that most of the humans they encounter are that depraved (or worse), causes me to think they are extremely vulnerable to being callous (and pompous) toward their fellow humans in general, regardless of how much they might claim they are not. I don't believe such a harsh "assessment" can just be set aside at will, as though they had complete mastery over their own hearts and minds. And them telling me words to the effect of; "Oh, you don't understand; It's God that gives me such wonderful control over my thoughts and emotions that I am able to dependably be/get beyond my belief that I am dealing with totally depraved people, not me"- doesn't convince me one little bit. In fact, it makes me MORE skeptical of them actually being capable of such non-judgmental thinking as would be required to get past that belief. (And I've seen them go into an "All-knowing God" routine, so many times when someone disagrees with them, accusing the offender (without any qualifiers at all) of denying/being against- God's sovereignty/Will/Word or the like, that I now consider Calvinism little more than a set of doctrines that promote narcissism/self-worship in some)
Yes! Not only that. Per the doctrine of decrees - the only impulses which are granted existence within the human brain - are those impulses fixed by infallible decree. Which means - in Calvinism - there is no such thing as a human having an impulse he can call his own.
When you understand Calvinism you understand (1) your own depravity workout God and (2) the goodness of God… and that the only goodness you have comes from Him. You want more of that goodness in the world… and you understand that by God’s design, it comes into the world by the proclamation of the Gospel to people who were just like you. We desire to see more people filled with the goodness of God.
@@brentonstanfield5198 - "When you understand Calvinism you understand (1) your own depravity workout God and (2) the goodness of God… " I think I do understand Calvinism, and I think Calvinists are just plain wrong about the need/desire for someone with sovereignty such as God has, to micromanage His creature's every thought and action. It's not like we (or anyone/thing else) have the power to stop Him from doing whatever He wants to, whenever He wants to, to anyone or anything in existence, period. Conflating THAT kind of Sovereignty, with some super-OCD type condition a "wimpy" god might suffer from, is basically a form of blasphemy, to me.
@@johnknight3529 - I don’t think you understand the implications of what you are talking about. All we are saying is that the God we worship truly is the creator God and that this is truly His world. He isn’t co-creating it with us. “Micro-managing” isn’t the word used… “creation” is the word. There is nothing to “manage”. God simply creates all things. We were nothing. God made us what we are and what we will become. We contribute nothing on our own because we have nothing on our own.
@@brentonstanfield5198 - "I don’t think you understand the implications of what you are talking about. All we are saying is that the God we worship truly is the creator God and that this is truly His world." No, it's not all you're saying, I suggest. For you are adding many "details" that to me are simply beyond your "authority" to add, in my view. No where does the Book say a human cannot think a thought, or have a feeling He doesn't place in their mind. It just doesn't, or you would be able to show me such ACTUAL WORDS in the Book, and not just some examples of Him doing such things sometimes, which I can read in the Book. He is not obligated to do something all the time, simply because He does it in some instances, I suggest. Because He is God, and not some sort of Super Computer that just carries out its programming without discretion, I believe. "“Micro-managing” isn’t the word used… “creation” is the word." I used the word, and I will continue to use the word, because it means what I am trying to convey. "Creation" is NOT what I'm trying to convey (and you and every other Calvinist on the planet have no right to dictate what words I use to convey what I want to convey.) "There is nothing to “manage”. God simply creates all things." Of course he does, but things exist in the real world, not just in someone's imagination. He made all creatures, but that doesn't mean He made every image of a creature a man might "create" in his head. I think you're giving humans far too much "glory" by treating our imaginings as somehow equivalent to His actual Creation.
I think that what you call "piety" here is what Christian philosophers call a "great making property". Alvin Plantinga and Wm. Lane Craig (and many others) write well on this. God giving us true libertarian free will is indeed a "great making property" which extends and broadens God's love and greatness. Calvinist determinism is a severe restriction on God, lessening his greatness. Calvinists fear that God's sovereignty is threatened by granting that man has free will and they have erected an entire convoluted system to "protect" God, so to speak.
Many Baptist are actually Calvinists believers especially when they follow people like John MacArthur. Admittedly, John MacArthur sounds good initially, right up to the point when he says once someone is "saved" they will still inherit the kingdom of heaven even if they continue in "unrepentant" sin. John MacArthur's sprinkles in untruth with his teachings and is like D-con rat poison which is 99.995% good stuff that rats love, but that other .005% is deadly.
@@chaddonal4331 When he (John MacArthur and other calvinist) teach someone can sin and not repent for that sin and still expect to go to heaven just because they are the elite and "saved", then that is some pretty .005% deadly stuff. I've heard him say it, my brother heard him say it, the difference being I don't believe the man, but my brother does. People have been trying to guess the return of Jesus since the beginning and John MacArthur is just another confused false "pre tribulation" rapture pusher despite his education and scholarly degrees. Satan likes nothing better than to slip in a little false belief that cause someone to be lost.
Would some of you please invite Allen apart for a conversation about this topic. He seems to be confused and trying to compromise grace with God election of the saints and at the same time not accepting God’s predestination of non-believers.
@@Dad.son_drums Allen is confused - the entire globe for that matter - you for instance don't know who the elect predestined saints are - let's see if you agree with God's written word PREDESTINED ELECT (Romans 11:1-2) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he "FOREKNEW" (Romans 8:29) For whom he did "FOREKNOW" he also did predestinate to be CONFORMED to the IMAGE OF HIS SON (Isaiah 45:4) for Jacob my servants sake and ISRAEL mine ELECT SAINTS (psalm 148:14) He also exalteth the horn of HIS PEOPLE, the praise of ALL HIS "SAINTS" even of the children of ISRAEL, a people near unto him. Praise ye the Lord. (Acts 9:13) Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to THY "SAINTS" at Jerusalem (Revelation 13:10 kjv) he who leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity he who killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword here is the patience and faith of the "SAINTS"
@@Revelation-cb1rb taking texts out of context to serve as your pretext is not a good thing to do. Romans 11, Isaiah and Psalms are talking about Israel, who were His elect nation which didn’t go all to heaven by the way. Same as Judah who was chosen directly by Jesus and didn’t end up with Him. ““I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.” John 17:9-12 Romans 8 is talking about our destiny in the future to take the image of Christ that we don’t have today. Rev 13 is talking about the ones that are left in Tribulation, which the church won’t go through. And Acts 9 it’s about one person that was not faithful to God in the middle of the early church. So, I guess you are also confused.
Ace. So what does EO teach differently about Christology than western theologies? And how then do other topics all fall into place? (i.e. How is the Calvinist/non-Calvinist debate solved?)
One of the best ways to guard against Calvinism is to come out of one of the other false ideas of Scripture..I was in the SDA chruch for over 30 years..And just doing the smallest investigation into the ideas of the SDA organization, just snowballed into the discovery of so many false ideas.. Understanding the scriptures as I am seeing Mike And Leighton see it, Calvinism is an absolute joke..My neighbor(Hard 5 point Calvinist) seeing me coming out of the SDA church , tried to show me Calvinism..but very slyly ..And I saw the errors almost immediately.. Understanding the simple Gospel of Grace, is a very intense shield to false gospel messages..
I love your take...”God is not sacrificing humanity for His Glory”. “God sacrificed Himself for man”
I came fairly close to falling in to Calvinism. Or, "doctrines of grace" as it was presented. I'm grateful that I didn't fall head-long into it. The thing that honestly turned me away from it was the piety Mike and Leighton speak of. It was like these Calvinists had an air of superiority... yet they'd present it with (false?) humility. At the end of each day, I don't subscribe to Calvinism, Armenianism, or any "ism," which are flawed ideas of man. I'm simply a sinner saved by the blood of Jesus. And Christ lives in me- that just makes me a Christian.
Amen
Basically a Nuanced Arminian
Piety? That's devotion to God.
Do you mean the "holier than thou" attitude?
@@judylloyd7901 Right, prideful piety... "holier than thou" attitude. Thank you.
@@Makai77 😁👍 I think perhaps Mike was using the word piety as holier-than-thou as well.
So glad God has raised up both of these Bible teachers. Praise Jesus! All glory to God!
Mike Winger with Leighton Flowers, love it!
Mike Winger is such a fantastic exegetical teacher of scripture and he has been a huge influence on my learning and growth as a Christian.
Mike is a huge blessing. He is one of the pastors/preachers/evangellists/teachers that is on my prayer list. I want him to be protected and blessed to continue to teach withh that gracious manner.
Praise The Lord for these two! Now they've collaborated- my cup overfloweth.
I remain opposed to an understanding that diminishes the grace and character of God, the author of love. The peace and assurance He gave me when I chose to repent is evidence enough to me. There were times in the past before my regeneration, where I chose not to repent. The moment I repented was the moment I was regenerated. That was the moment of peace I’ll never forget. I don’t glory in my choice, but rather give glory to God for giving us the choice.
I chose to comment on this video. I chose to watch the video, to listen to Mike’s experience. I chose to read some comments. I’m baffled by the Calvinist doctrines. Calvin himself was not someone I would encourage others to follow.
The Old Testament refers to free will offerings. Choices are an everyday thing to me. I chose Christ because all else was empty and vain. He didn’t force me. I found too, that all the other points of Calvinism are not edifying or helpful to me in my walk of faith.
So true
It's great to see my two favorite internet Biblical teachers together on RUclips!
Same!
@@freemind9721
Reminds me of the movie 2 criminals
John have you checked "Fighting for the faith" and "justandsinner"? Give that a go...they're amazing
When I asked my boss about Calvinism and he was going through it, all I could say was "the God that I believe in is bigger than that". I never got a chance to explain what I meant by that statement, and I actually have difficulty putting it into words. I think basically what I mean is that God is a loving God and isn't going to allow any to perish without being given the opportunity to make a choice. I don't have to twist any scripture to know that Jesus died for everyone.
What you may be trying to articulate is that the human mind cannot reconcile how humans can be given free will and God be totally sovereign. Calvinists think that because those are mutually exclusive according to standard logic then humans must not have free will, but they ignore that they believe many things that counter standard logic for example the concept of infinity. God existing with no origin, with no beginning. God existing outside of time and space. The human brain can't comprehend these things and for some reason they reaaaally get stuck on that one and wrap their whole life around it.
@@thebestSteven Thank you!!! Yes, I think you've explained what I've been thinking and meaning when I say that God is bigger than "that". I find a similar thing with evolution. My basic thinking is I believe the Bible which says that God created everything, then I can believe that He is able to create man and animals in their final form.
This is a non-argument. I suggest you study the issues first before taking a position.
One who gives an answer before he hears, It is foolishness and shame to him. (Proverbs 18:13)
Debunking catholicism
I'm more blessed than mary
Proof = Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen
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CHRIST alone
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
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Work of God =
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
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1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul.
Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop
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Jesus said Matthew 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father.
Sad
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Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God
Use this to defeat the argument.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”.
Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards).
By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26.
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We should not pray to apostles
Romans 1:25
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Acts 10:25-26
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Acts 14:15
15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 22:8-9
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Colossians 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles
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There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
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Apostles are allowed to marry,
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry?
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The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic).
1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple
2)He sank down while walking on water
3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan
4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times
5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven
6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear
7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles.
8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land),
9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit),
10)King Soloman messed up,
11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11).
Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up)
12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up.
13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20
14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9
If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up.
_
Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Sarah is mother of all, Not mary
Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics
Changed the 10 commandments by deleting 2nd commandment, and dividing the 10th into 2 commandments. Also changing the real Saturday Sabbath to fake sunday sabbath.
@@michaelmannucci8585 he knew the argument and that's why he said GOD is bigger than that because HE IS . Calvinism has GOD cursing the majority of us to helk without sayan kitting a finger and receiving much pleasure from GOD'S handiwork in calvinism . Heck , calvinism doesn't even need a satan for anyone yo go to hell because they have GOD doing it for satan . Pretty much doing the will of satan actually , which we find nowhere in scripture . In the Bible GOD loves and cherishes HIS creation , so much that HE sent HIS PRECIOUS SON to reconcile ALL of it to HIMSELF Collossians 1 : 20 . But calvinists once again say no CHRIST didn't come to reconcile ALL but just us . I plead with you to rethink the position you've embraced my friend . There's a reason it's the most minority view in Christianity and especially amongst scholars with high view of scripture. I'm talking about 90% reject the blasphemy of calvinism .
God bless you Dr. Flowers and Bro. Winger! Keep teaching the truth of Biblical soteriology.
What cracks me up about Calvinism is the idea that no one really understood the scriptures until Calvin came along.
It pretty much is the same with SDA ...JW.. LDS ..Everyone was lost with the understanding of Scripture until the leaders of these heretic ideas came along..Then suddenly they think that everyone else is wrong and they are the right ones...
The Catholics certainly didn't, they think the Pope is Christ's voice on Earth. And Catholics (and off brand Catholics like the Orthodox Church) were 99% of what you had for over a thousand years. Whether it be Calvinism or some other ism, someone during or after the Reformation had to rediscover truths that had been lost throughout the reign of Catholicism.
And Augustine
for real haha
Two of my favorite Pastors. Thank you for striving to bring about sound doctrine.
Mike Winger is a good teacher too.
Mike spoke on reading Romans 9 in and of itself and how you could come away with Calvinist beliefs if you do that, which I agree is totally possible. The problem is, we should never read a chapter by itself. The original manuscripts did not have chapter numbers or verse numbers. Most “books” of the NT are letters, and should be read as such. You don’t take a letter from someone you know and just read a portion of it and put it down to continue a part of it the next day. You read it as a whole. When you read Romans 1-11, you see a lot more clearly that a Calvinistic interpretation is just plain wrong. You start to see the themes come through throughout the letter. This is crucial to see. Read the letters straight through, as it was meant to be written. Colossians 4:16 “After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea.”
I think you may have misunderstood him. He mentioned that he was going through Romans 9 verse by verse and if you take it in it's entirety you cannot come away with Calvinism.
I love hearing you guys talk through “what seems to indicate there are choices and decisions to be made concerning your salvation.” Thanks for the video. When Mike mentioned “regeneration before faith (or at the same time as faith),” these words of Jesus crossed my mind: “When the Son of man comes, will he find faith on the earth?” If I understand Calvinists, they would say, “Of course! God already knows in whom faith will be found.” Why, then, did Jesus ask the question? All of which reminds me to “be careful if you think you stand, lest you fall.” Thanks again for the thought provocation.
Correct! Calvin's god knows who will be found with faith - because he decrees who will be found with faith.
Calvinist Paul Helms
-quote
His foreknowledge is simply his knowledge of what he has decreed. (Divine Foreknowledge - Four Views pg 12)
At the foundation of the world - prior to the decree of what each person will be and do - Calvin's god has multiple options from which to choose. But the process of making that CHOICE entails a selection - along with a rejection of all ALTERNATIVES to that which has been selected.
Per the doctrine of decrees - for every human event and every human impulse - there is never granted more than ONE SINGLE PREDESTINED RENDERED-CERTAIN option.
- In Calvinism - everything without exception is predestined.
- Man is granted NO CHOICE in the matter of anything predestined.
- Thus man is never granted a CHOICE in the matter of anything.
Debunking catholicism
I'm more blessed than mary
Proof = Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen
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CHRIST alone
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
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Work of God =
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
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1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul.
Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop
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Jesus said Matthew 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father.
Sad
_________________________
Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God
Use this to defeat the argument.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”.
Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards).
By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26.
_________________________
We should not pray to apostles
Romans 1:25
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Acts 10:25-26
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Acts 14:15
15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 22:8-9
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Colossians 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles
_________________________
There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
_________________________
Apostles are allowed to marry,
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry?
_________________________
The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic).
1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple
2)He sank down while walking on water
3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan
4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times
5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven
6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear
7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles.
8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land),
9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit),
10)King Soloman messed up,
11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11).
Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up)
12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up.
13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20
14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9
If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up.
_
Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Sarah is mother of all, Not mary
Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics
Changed the 10 commandments by deleting 2nd commandment, and dividing the 10th into 2 commandments. Also changing the real Saturday Sabbath to fake sunday sabbath...
Awesome! Two of my favorite apologist! Been wishing these two would talk and make some videos together.
Stay away from calvinism.
Stay away from fanaticism of men.
Follow Jesus, become a Christian.
Perfect! And simple, yet so profound.
@@Makai77
(Romans 11:1-2) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
God hath not cast away his people which he "FOREKNEW"
(Romans 8:29) For whom he did "FOREKNOW" he also did predestinate to be CONFORMED to the IMAGE OF HIS SON
(Isaiah 45:4) for Jacob my servants sake and ISRAEL mine ELECT
calvanist have it right they've just inserted themselves instead of the ethnic bloodline Israelites
@@Revelation-cb1rb DW: Per the doctrine - no Calvinist has any CERTAINTY of what he was created/designed for.
Calvin's god creates/designs THE MANY - specifically for eternal torment in a lake of fire - for his good pleasure.
Calvin's god creates/designs THE MANY within the Calvinist fold as CHAFF.
John Calvin explains:
-quote
But the Lord....instills into their minds such *A SENSE* ....as can be felt *WITHOUT* the Spirit of adoption. (Institutes 3.2.11)
-quote
he *ILLUMINES ONLY FOR A TIME* to partake of it; then he ....strikes them with even greater blindness (Institutes 3.24.8)
Additionally - in Calvinism - the promises within scripture to the believer are classified as the ENUNCIATED will of god. And the SECRET will of god in most cases is the exact opposite.
So the Calvinist has NO CERTAINTY if any promise within scripture to the believer applies to himself.
Per the doctrine - he has the higher probability of being created/designed for the lake of fire. So he would be wise to prepare himself accordingly.
@@dw6528
Actually it your entire ethnicity that should prepare urselves
( Hebrews 12:16-17 kjv) Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as
E S. A U when he would have inherited the blessing, he was REJECTED: for he found NO PLACE OF "REPENTANCE"
(Malachi 1:2-4) yet I loved Jacob, And I hated E. S. A. U and they shall call THEM, The border of "WICKEDNESS" and, THE PEOPLE against whom the Lord hath indignation FOREVER
(Psalm 11:5-6) The Lord trieth the righteous: but the "WICKED" and him that loveth violence his soul hateth Upon the WICKED he shall rain "FIRE" and "BRIMSTONE" this shall be the portion of their cup
(Obadiah 1:18) And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of E. S. A. U for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall NOT BE ANY REMAINING of the house of
E. S. A. U. for the LORD hath spoken it
THUS SAYETH THE LORD
@@Revelation-cb1rb DW: I give you your own doctrine - and the conclusion which follows from of your own doctrine - and in return - all you have are blind accusations.
The scripture calls that "beating at the air" :-D
Was very close to becoming a Calvinist but when I heard it it Truly never set well with me at all.
Praise God for you brothers
Yes Arminianism makes so much more sense just like God makes sense all the time. 2 Cor 5:21 "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
If you want to be rich sell everything you have and give it to the poor. “Then Jesus, said to him, “Go sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven…" Matt 19:21
Lose so you can gain! “For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ.” Philippians 3:8
If you want to be exalted, humble yourself. “Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.” James. 4:10
If you want to be first, be last. “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.” Matthew 20:16
If you want to be strong, be weak. “For when I am weak, then I am strong.” 2 Corinthians 12:10
If you want to be free, become a slave. “But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.” Romans 6:22
If you want to live, you must die. “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” Matthew 16:25
Right on !
Leighton, Thank you for using the term "begging/begs the question" correctly. So few people do. 😀
"...to be fair..." That's something I literally never heard from Calvinists when I used to engage with them on a fairly regular basis. Thank you.
Hi brother. May I ask, what is it that Mike said that you never heard from Calvinists?
@@robertmichaels2914 “…to be fair…”
Thank you, Dr. Flowers for the work and warnings you're putting out about the dangers of Calvinism. It is greatly appreciated.
It's so disappointing to see my Bible College Alumni falling into the trap of Calvinism but it's not entirely unexpected. At the school I graduated from, we were taught Classical/Standard Dispensationalism. This form of doctrine was shaped by the books of golden age professors from Dallas Theological Seminary one of which was Dr. John Walvoord. Both DTS President L.S. Chafer and his protégé, John Walvoord, were Presbyterian and Reformed in background. As taken from Dictionary of Premillennial Theology by Mal Couch, General Editor., "Walvoord defended the Augustinian, Calvinist interpretation of sin, Christ, redemption, and grace (though embracing, as did Chafer, unlimited Atonement). " Is it any surprise that the bridge to Calvinism within the IFCA and their schools is made easy to cross by a hybrid theology of consistently literal hermenutic-influenced Biblical studies combined with Calvinistic thought undergirding their Systematic Theologies? I went to Bible College for ministry preparation and to be inculcated in a better theological environment. It was only marginally better than my former Calvinsitic associations. If I had known then what I know now, I would have chosen another school.
This may not have been the best place for this entry to land but it seemed important enough to post here vs. seeking out a more appropriate Soteriology 101 video. I just had to get this off my chest.
Revelation 2:9
I just would like a clarification--in your view the DTS is not Calvinist due to Dispensationalist heritage? I would be interested to know their position, if there is one, on Cessationism, as it's really a dispensationalist doctrine, in that it purports a period of time in which God dealt with the Church in a unique way.
@@duncescotus2342 I had typed out a comprehensive reply in response to your request for a clarification but somehow, I hit a button and all my work is gone. It is getting too late to reproduce it so I will endeavor to type it from memory tomorrow.
@@HeyWiseGuy Ah, that happens to me a lot. Whenever God wants me to tone it down, but I say screw it!
Whole treatises, gone.
@@duncescotus2342 My sincerest apologies! I had completely spaced on writing my response to your query. I'll have to get on that soon.
"I saw them driven to turn all guidance into blind force - rigidly controlling guidance - and to treat God’s will as nothing but fate. And I was distressed at how often people identified some brutal event as God’s will - even when it clearly came from a decision made by human beings. They then easily moved on to the faith-destroying, even blasphemous idea that everything that happens in this world is caused by God." - Dallas Willard
Leighton Flowers, Steve Gregg, Mike Winger, Dallas Willard, GK Chesterton, CS Lewis, AW Tozer, David Pawson, John Wesley, Leonard Ravenhill, Scot McKnight. I like what these guys are saying.
When I was a child and throughout high school, I was taught Calvinism. It took me until my mid-twenties... right around when my prefrontal cortex started working to realize the Bible clearly teaches otherwise. It did a lot of harm to me to be a determinist. I never thought to question it. No one taught me that there was an alternative. No one told me they were teaching me a minority theological position that was extremist. So glad I am free now.
Dallas Willard speaks the truth so powerfully; yet such tenderness. He was not the "shooter from the hip" teacher. Anything he spoke about, he did so with deep respect, with a great deal of study and prayer.
I love Dallas Willard’s clarity of thought and penetrating words. He was a master teacher.
Winger is great
Psalms 119:108 Accept, I pray, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD,
And teach me Your judgments.
No freewill period
@@Revelation-cb1rb Then you are prepared to take a pair of scissors to your Bible.
@@christophersnedeker2065
Your biblical God given ethnicity and written judgement says it all - freewill your way out of it
(Hebrews 12:16-17 kjv) least there be any fornicator, or profane person, as
E S. A U when he would have inherited the blessing, he was REJECTED: for he found NO PLACE OF "REPENTANCE"
(Malachi 1:2-4) yet I loved Jacob, And I hated E. S. A. U and they shall call THEM, The border of "WICKEDNESS" and, THE PEOPLE against whom the Lord hath indignation FOREVER
(Psalm 11:5-6) The Lord trieth the righteous: but the "WICKED" and him that loveth violence his soul hateth Upon the WICKED he shall rain "FIRE" and "BRIMSTONE" this shall be the portion of their cup
(Obadiah 1:18) And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of E. S. A. U for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall NOT BE ANY REMAINING of the house of
E. S. A. U. for the LORD hath spoken it
THUS SAYETH THE LORD
@@christophersnedeker2065
Crickets
Two of my favourite Bible scholars together - such a treat!!!
So if calvinism brings God the most glory and He decrees all things then why aren't all christians calvinist? Wouldn't a God that meticulously controls all things want as much glory as possible?
@Shop Rat #92 by God's decree!
@Shop Rat #92 😆
A similiar logical fallacy occurs when you ask why, if everything is according to God's will, does he express so much unhappiness with human events throughout history. In Genesis 6:6, we read that God regrets even creating Man, so either his _Sovereign Irresistible Will_ doesn't bring him glory, or he has decreed himself not to be happy with his own Sovereign decrees!
@Shop Rat #92 Neither do I. But I do understand that I'm saved by the blood of Jesus. I see no reason to understand an idea of man. I'll just be a Christian- my salvation is secure.
@@PETERJOHN101 don't you know? It's his third will squared times pi!
This is the collab I’ve been waiting for
I also was lucky to have read enough for myself that when my Calvinist pastor tried to help me understand, Just reading Romans and Act's carefully without Calvinist Infulence was enough. when my pastor pointed me towards John pipers five points, it just read like something that wasn't in the bible and my gut was right and kept me from taking this to heart.
The TULIP study with Dr. Leighton helped us greatly, along with finding Mike Winger to binge watch. Sadly, we saw Biblical churches torn apart by aggressive takeovers directed by incoming secret reform pastors. The heavy emphasis on that theology was one of the reasons why chose to move to an area where our daughter would not be excluded OR dragged into that life and theology.
My two favorite guys! How did I not know this was happening?!
It happened over three years ago
@@peterfox7663 Wow, this is from more than three yrs ago? Is the entire discussion up on either of their RUclips channels? Or, might you have a link to it? I'd love to watch it in its entirety.
@@Makai77 The link is in the video description
@@peterfox7663 Sheesh, obvious. But thanks! Should've noticed that... egg on my face.
@@Makai77
Ask Peter you guys biblical God given ethnicity
I have never felt more secure than I do now in what John Piper calls the 7-point Calvinist. It has really opened up Scripture to an amazing and humbling depth.
Arminians HATE the doctrine of predestination, ABSOLUTELY HATE IT. What they are ignorant of is Jacobus Arminius believed in it, so much so that he called it "the foundation of Christianity! "Far from the popular notion that Arminians don’t believe in predestination, the Arminian Articles reflect Jacob Arminius’s belief that predestination is “the foundation of Christianity.” ... Arminians believe that predestination is God’s purpose before the foundation of the world to save believers in Christ and to condemn unbelievers outside of Christ. In other words, predestination is the gospel."
Exactly! This argumentation regarding what gives God the most glory is bizarre. I too find myself rejecting this as any kind of basis for substantiating Calvinism.
The Bible ought to be your ONLY source for determining truth, not man's musings on what most glorifies God.
God is infinitely glorified. Nothing can diminish His glory!
After getting deep into the weeds as to why Calvinism as presented today is not Biblically sound, this video was so helpful at hitting some of the main problems. And on a side note: why does any honest Christian think Calvinism brings God more glory than the truth that He sovereignly created us in His image with the ability to respond to His salvation…? That is far more glorious than what is being said of the character of God on the other side.
I found Mike Winger because he criticized open theism (I'm open theist) he didn't convince me but now I'm hooked on his channel
I’d like to learn more about open theism. Can you direct me to content if you know of any that I can hear about it? What is the opposite of open theism? Thanks!
@Ril k Also, the opposite of Open Theism is Classical Theism (not Calvinism, although there's a lot of overlap.) I reject Classical Theism because I don't think it's consistent with the Bible.
Simple is good!
I come back to this channel every time our Reformed brothers and sisters question another denomination's salvation.
They don't just question it they deny it in most cases just like we're instructed not to do in scripture .
I question many denomination's salvation. Catholicism, Orthodox, Jehovah's Witnesses, because their denominations aren't biblical. Aside from the extremes like those, I'm very broad as far as denominations go. Methodists, Baptists, Church of God, Presbyterians, most denominations are fine, and even the extreme ones like Catholicism I believe still have genuine believers within them (though they're few and far between).
Love the TV split screen. 😇😇😇
By the way, great video!
Your point about bringing Glory to God--Calvinism diminishes God--it removes Glory from God. That's one reason I am not a calvinist
I do lean on the reform side but I really love both of you are doing. Thank you! Just a simple question.
If God truly desires ALL men to be saves? then Why does God didn't give equal/fair opportunity to every one to receive the Gospel?
Good question, but here is your Calvinism showing up. You said "if" God desires all to be saved. The Bible plainly says that He does. This goes against your philosophy that God always gets what He wants. His will isn't always accomplished, that is why we are to pray that it will. When I have sinned, it went against His desire and will. And He was never glorified with it. Have a great day. 😀
@@drjcw i already said that I'm leaning on the reform side which is practically Calvinistic. And about the question, what I am pointing out is not the "if" but the "ALL". If all are to be saved, why doesn't everyone have the fair opportunity to hear/receive the Gospel?
And btw, I am here in Vietnam right now. And I tell you, so many people here never even heard of name Jesus.
@@kyontv6826 If all are saved we do not need to know anything about salvation it will just happen. Calvinism makes very little sense. God choose who he is going to send to hell with no option for them. Why would a good God bother creating them. So much for God is love and merciful and just. Hell is going to be, well... hell. It will be man's failure to understand that believing the right thing is really important. If Jesus is the truth. Way, truth , life, you know. If you seek truth the Lord will bring it you way.
For me it was reading Dave Hunt's book, "What Love is This?" in college.
J 336, From what I have read about it, I believe that book should turn anyone away from Calvinism but I have never read the book.
@@brucewinningham4959
Calvanist have it right - they've just inserted themselves instead of the ethnic bloodline Israelites
Revelation 21:12, How can someone be a "true" Christian and think they are fooling GOD?
@@brucewinningham4959
Crickets
@@brucewinningham4959
Calvanist are no different than any other self professed modern day Christian - your ethnic people for instance - you folks created the replacement image of Christ - every denomination of Christianity and have roamed the globe for nonstop continuous centuries killn stealin n blaspheming yet claim your walking into heaven unpunished - if that's not thinking your fooling God nothing is - unfortunately for you folks is that God already documented in scripture exactly what you would do - he also documented the judgement for said actions
( Hebrews 12:16-17 kjv) Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as
E S. A U when he would have inherited the blessing, he was REJECTED: for he found NO PLACE OF "REPENTANCE"
(Malachi 1:2-4) yet I loved Jacob, And I hated E. S. A. U and they shall call THEM, The border of "WICKEDNESS" and, THE PEOPLE against whom the Lord hath indignation FOREVER
(Psalm 11:5-6) The Lord trieth the righteous: but the "WICKED" and him that loveth violence his soul hateth Upon the WICKED he shall rain "FIRE" and "BRIMSTONE" this shall be the portion of their cup
(Obadiah 1:18) And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of E. S. A. U for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall NOT BE ANY REMAINING of the house of
E. S. A. U. for the LORD hath spoken it
(not 1 remaining)
THUS SAYETH THE LORD
I feel like what people miss about God’s glory is that it’s functionally passive. It’s a by product of who He is, not something He has to try to get.
Right. God simply IS glorious. Not because of something He does or doesn't do.
I’d posit the Shikinah is a heck of a lot more than that. The meaning is to dwell. The Calvinistic glory have no idea how God functions with His creation. It is all based on presumption and Medieval mumbo jumbo rather than biblical exegesis.
@@omnitheus5442 shekinah*
Yeah, not a "by-product," but His *essence.* I don't think it's correct to say that God's glory is "passive" either. 🤪😁
@@omnitheus5442
(Romans 11:1-2) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
God hath not cast away his people which he "FOREKNEW"
(Romans 8:29) For whom he did "FOREKNOW" he also did predestinate to be CONFORMED to the IMAGE OF HIS SON
(Isaiah 45:4) for Jacob my servants sake and ISRAEL mine ELECT
calvanist have it right they've just inserted themselves instead of the ethnic bloodline Israelites
I think many young preacher boys are drawn to Calvinism because they finally hear someone talk about Bible doctrine with persuasiveness. The teachers usually come across with authority. I was almost persuaded and did listen to several of the Calvinist preachers because they sounded smart. The other issue is that growing up we don't hear a lot of good arguments against Calvinism and not a lot of good answers about the subject.
Calvinism is a little like prosperity theology.. Taking a few verses and pushing them to the logical limit without balancing with other scripture
That logic can be applied to virtually every Catholic and Protestant doctrine since that's both of those groups read the Bible.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 means it’s a pretty good logic principle. Should not abused or misused and wisely used.
@@mccaboy
Calvanist have it right - they've just inserted themselves instead of the ethnic Israelites - it's really no different than any other modern day Christian doctrine - yet when the scriptures are actually read we see that Christ Isaiah Peter the angel of the Lord n Paul make it clear that Christ's sacrifice was for ethnic bloodline Israelites ONLY - who's lying the bible or christianity
ISAIAH
(Isaiah 53:5,8) and with his "STRIPES" WE are healed He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of "MY PEOPLE" was he stricken
PETER
(1st Peter 2:24) Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that WE, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose "STRIPES" WE were healed
GOD'S ANGEL
(Matthew 1:21) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save HIS PEOPLE from THEIR SINS
(Matthew 2:6) 6And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule MY PEOPLE ISRAEL
PAUL
(Romans 9:3-5) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for MY BRETHREN, my kinsmen according to the "FLESH" who are ISRAELITES; to whom pertaineth the ADOPTION, and the GLORY, and the "COVENANTS" and the giving of the LAW, and the service of God, and the "PROMISES" whose are the fathers, and of WHOM AS CONCERNING THE "FLESH" CHRIST CAME
CHRIST
(Matthew 15:24) I am NOT sent but unto the Lost sheep of the house of ISRAEL
@@Revelation-cb1rb even Calvinists won't agree with you. Hahaha
@@mccaboy
I'm in agreement with Christ Isaiah Peter the angel of the Lord n apostle Paul who cares what calvanist or modern day Christians believe - are you calling God's written word a lie and his anoited lying schizophrenics?? read it again
ISAIAH
(Isaiah 53:5,8) and with his "STRIPES" WE are healed He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of "MY PEOPLE" was he stricken
PETER
(1st Peter 2:24) Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that WE, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose "STRIPES" WE were healed
GOD'S ANGEL
(Matthew 1:21) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save HIS PEOPLE from THEIR SINS
(Matthew 2:6) 6And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule MY PEOPLE ISRAEL
PAUL
(Romans 9:3-5) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for MY BRETHREN, my kinsmen according to the "FLESH" who are ISRAELITES; to whom pertaineth the ADOPTION, and the GLORY, and the "COVENANTS" and the giving of the LAW, and the service of God, and the "PROMISES" whose are the fathers, and of WHOM AS CONCERNING THE "FLESH" CHRIST CAME
CHRIST
(Matthew 15:24) I am NOT sent but unto the Lost sheep of the house of ISRAEL
I do not think that the argument about a loving God torturing babies is an emotional one eventhough it evokes strong emotions.
It is a complete logical contradiction to say that a God of self-sacrificial love creates people for hell to glorify Himself when He is already maximally glorious. It also contradicts the Bible on how it defines God's love to be. I cannot see how Calvinists reconcile this contradiction.
You either give up God's most important attribute, love or you hold to a logical contradiction.
@@RoyceVanBlaricome "Of course it is." Of course it is not, and the reason why that is so was provided in the next paragraph.
"Why? Where is the Logic that distinguishes that from Opinion?"
Where is the logic that proves it is not a logical contradiction? Turning the question around does not resolve what people find repulsive about Calvinism. The onus is on you to prove that your perspective is correct because no one using the common understanding of the word "love" or "sovereignty" finds it consistently applicable to the Calvinist God. That is why Calvinists like R.C. Sproul, John F. McArthur and John Piper admit that it is difficult to accept.
"First, you've not established any contradiction has been made." "How so?"
Sorry but no. The Calvinist God is a contradiction when you expose their idiosyncratic definitions of words like "love" and "sovereignty". I only need to reject your definitions and all the contradictions become clearer than water. Self-glorification at the expense of the opportunity to show love is the complete opposite of what the Bible defines love to be:
1 Corinthians 13:4-8
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Matthew 5:43
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
Ephesians 5:2
2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.
1 John4:7-16
Knowing God Through Love
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
Seeing God Through Love
12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
Titus 2:14
14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
None of the descriptions and definitions of love in the Bible are logically consistent with the idea that God creates people for hell to glorify himself. Love is simply not self-seeking and definitely not at the expense of the suffering of others. Try and refute this without redefining terms please, we simply do not acknowledge the Calvinist dictionary because it is full of presuppositions that are the very subject being debated, ergo circular reasoning.
"Second, your inability to see something doesn't make that something a contradiction."
It is so convenient to label logical contradictions as "mysteries". I can simply flip this back at you, it is just a mystery how Man can have libertarian free will and God can be sovereign, we can dismiss double predestination using this mystery and just because you do not understand it does not make it a contradiction.
I was saved for 7 years before I even found out what Calvinism was and I thank God for that.
I ended up visiting a close friends “biblical” church and could not put my finger on it but there was no JOY.
I couldn’t figure out why everyone seemed depressed so I started looking into the church online. I soon found out they were Calvinist. Once I found out what Calvinist believed I was blown away.
This lead to literally 12 hour long conversations with my friend going back and forth with scriptures.
I even tried to accept it in my mind and open up to it mentally just to see if it was true. And not for one second could I.
I truly believe Calvinism is evil.
That being said I still have a lot of friends lol correction a couple of Calvinist friends.. and I love them.
You won’t read the Bible and come away a Calvinist.. someone has to push that doctrine on You seriously.
Calvinism is evil, you are correct. I've seen that joyless false humility in a fellowship with a large amount of Calvinists (and the leadership being 100% Calvinist). I was a member for 13 years or so and eventually noticed that ALL of Scripture was taught through the prism of Calvinism.
There just wasn't any joy, any life, any wonderment. They were like robots.
In the finish, I came to understand that there was little to no true faith either. When they were tested, nobody even enquired of the Lord. I tried to help them see but not being a theologian counted against me. The intellectual snobbery and pride was off the scale.
May God have mercy on them.
If someone has to push Calvinism onto you, then how did the first Calvinist become a Calvinist? Food for thought.
I agree with you. And yes, there seems to be NO JOY! Everything is so serious.
@@GaliscesGamingFrom Augustine who, prior to his conversion was a Manichaeistic Gnostic and reverted back to it in the last 18 years of his life. Luther who was an Augustinian monk prior to his conversion - and was strongly influenced by him - also imbibed this ideology/philosophy.
couple this "more pious = better" strategy with the crueler side of it, which is the use of moralistic shame-tactics: "that makes you a Synergist! that's evil!"; if synergism is true, I want to be a synergist, and it doesnt really matter what you think!
The name-calling is real: "synergists", "semi-Pelagians", like the biblical ad hominem, "Uncircumcised Philistines!" -- except that one was true.
Basic hermeneutics maintaining accurate context for all texts. What is sad is that many in our pulpits today have never taken a class in hermeneutics😞
I want to see more of you two.🙏🏼
Old video
This is Leighton Flowers' channel. Mike Winger also has a channel. He's one of the most unbiased exegetes I've listened to 😁👍
@@judylloyd7901 💙💙
@@omnitheus5442
Old video same old lies
@@Revelation-cb1rb DW: A claim void of evidence - is like a cloud void of rain. Its more smoke-&-mirrors than anything else. :-]
Calvinism is a ‘doctrine of demons’. Any other questions?
I think the conundrum happens when we assume God can only act in 1 of two ways...that being total determinism or in giving total free will. But I think the Bible more clearly shows us that God gives us free will, but he can at any time decide to intervene in that free will at any time for his purposes, he has clearly done that for SOME but not all...so for that moment that person is no longer free but bound by God's will. And as soon as that intervention is done whether for a moment or for weeks and months like pharaoh, they are then free again. Now you could go circular and say that means they never were ACTUALLY free willed, but that's just a cop out. Just because someone gets locked up in a jail for two years and forced on a schedule, doesn't negate their free will that happens before or after that time period.
Secondly, It seems to me that free willed man gives God MORE glory in that he shows his power over free will creatures, than him playing with dolls... because no one has ever looked at a child playing with toys and said "wow, look at all the glory and power they get from their determination of the dolls actions"...but in contrast, think of all the glory an undefeated fighter gets because even despite the opposing forces, they always come out on top. That is true power. That is true sovereignty. That is true glory.
There is no freewill - how could God declare the END from the BEGINNING if there were
@@Revelation-cb1rb that doesn't change anything. It just means that in the beginning of time, he declared what the end result would be. And this end happens DESPITE the choices that man would make in between the two.
Let's bring the fighter analogy into more perspective...the champion fighter (God) goes to the ring knowing he is more powerful then anyone else who steps in there, so he knows from the beginning that in the end he will win. It doesn't matter how many punches the opponent throws, how many rounds it lasts, in the end, God wins, and he doesn't have to determine and control every punch, block and step in order to ensure that happens. He could declare it is the end with a final blow and nothing can stop that, but up to that point, the opposer gets to try as hard as he wants to thwart it and fight and get knocked out, or he can surrender in humility, but either way God wins.
@@BEABEREAN10
Your analogy undermines God's sovereignty - he controls every step of everything - even the birds don't fly south without his instructions to do so - example - "Habakkuk 2:2-5" - how did he know??
(Proverbs 20:24) Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
@@Revelation-cb1rb just saying I am undermining God's sovereignty doesn't make it true. No where does the Bible say that God's sovereignty depends on his control at every moment of time. That's a conclusion that Calvinist/determinists have come to by their own logic, not by what the bible says is required. And there is opposing logic that stands to make God's sovereignty even greater as he usurps his power over free will beings.
But I digress...
Habakkuk 2 has nothing to do with God being in power over actions. It's about God knowing the outcome. You have to read determination into that. God doesn't have to determine actions to know what will happen and if you think he does, then you are the one limiting his power and abilities.
The closest Bible verse that says God determines actions of birds is job 39:27 - does the eagle soar at your command and build it's nest on high? Yes, God put the ability and nature of an eagle to do these things, but it doesn't mean he purposes every place the eagle flies and builds. The verse doesn't say that.
Lastly, great job grabbing one proverb to found a doctrine of total determinism....what about Psalm 37:23...that it's actually the steps of a good man which are ordered by the lord....this doesn't say God has his hand in the steps of every man. What about proverbs 3 - trust in the lord with all your heart ...and he will direct your paths? I thought he ALWAYS directed our paths according to divine determination?
It's important we build doctrine on the full counsel of the word, not just cherry picked Bible verses.
@@Revelation-cb1rb DW: Thus it follows - the Calvinist brain is not free to discern TRUE from FALSE on any matter.
Because doing so would require a LIBERTARIAN choice between TRUE and FALSE.
Which is a function which does not exist for the Calvinist brain.
And that is why the Calvinist brain is not granted the function of discerning TRUE from FALSE on any matter.
Very important insight here - how Calvinism 'filters' through a couple of key texts. Very helpful.
@@RoyceVanBlaricome Tulip never makes it through the filter of scripture.. it depends on a few proof texts.
@@RoyceVanBlaricome And you ask that why?
@@RoyceVanBlaricome Are you one of those "best"?
@@RoyceVanBlaricome I didn't know there was a rule I had to answer your question but since it's that important to you....I made the statement because it's the truth and it was related to your comment. My comment did not imply you are a Calvinist in any way and I stand my ground that Tulip is only derived from scriptures when one focusses on proof texts. Change my mind
@@RoyceVanBlaricome Most of the Bible implies free-will. Calvinists, therefore, always point to proof texts and those texts always are about something God either did predestine or a prophecy by God that He made happen upon His timing.
But I see you're not really the kind to have a discussion. You have an attitude. Bullet type arguments are annoying. Answer them one by one and you end up writing a book.
You take care now
But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, (Galatians 1:15, ESV)
When asked if I am a Calvinist, I reply that I am a Christian above all. I am studying predestination vs free will and remain confused. I want to be able to confidently answer questions from non-believers regarding free will. So far the only explaination that makes me feel comfortable (which may be a bad sign) is something that I read in RC Sproul's book What is Predestination? He writes about the Augustinian view of double predestination in which God does a positive work in the lives of the elect whereas he simply abandons the reprobate to their own desires. I am also conflicted moreso when I read scripture such as Romans 6:44 and then John 3:16. I do not believe that there is conflict between the scriptures, only my lack of understanding. Does anyone know of a basic Soteriology 101 video that explains the nuts and bolts of predestination????
You are a Christian first (and that should be enough)
You don’t need to identify yourself with any other doctrine that carries the name of a man, like Calvin.
Calvinism is nothing more but a personal interpretation of Scripture turned into doctrine.. (originated from gnosticism by the way, look it up)
It is sold as some sort of “higher knowledge” that only becomes clear when you TRULY study Scriptures.
(Nope, lots of people that TRULY studied Scriptures yet reject the idea)
But the issue with the doctrine is that it creates a lot of contradictions in the Bible..
Because only certain verses of Scripture SEEM to support it on first glance (romans 9) when others clearly teach the exact opposite.
Calvinist seem to think there is only one way the right way to interpret romans 9, when there are non-calvinistic interpretations that make much more sense, especially considering they affirm the rest of the Bible instead of contradicting it. Too many times Calvinists HAVE to pull the “mystery” card when they run into such a contradiction, that only exists for them, because they interpret the Bible in a calvinistic way that causes contradictions.
I can tell you that
no early Christian was trying to figure out if they were a 3 point, 4 point, 5 point CALVINist..
And they did just fine without that doctrine..
So, if the early Christians did just fine without this “knowledge” you will be fine too.
Christians didn’t question the sufficiency of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross because not everybody was being saved before Calvin came along. And you will be fine without it too.
@@annikaelisaa1879 Nailed it! And for the triggered, no I'm not going off my "feelings." The comment is simply well thought out, and accurate in regards to church history. ;)
The baseline philosophy of Reformed Theology, i.e. Calvinism, is when confronted with difficult unpleasant questions and criticisms that they have no plausible explanation for they viciously attack the critics character with ad hominem and condescending remarks then use those lies to run away like a frightened little girl, all the while declaring themselves victorious.
Oh man… that is hilarious… pot calling kettle black stuff.
@@brentonstanfield5198
No pot calling - simply your biblical God given ethnicity and written judgement
( Hebrews 12:16-17 kjv) Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as
E S. A U when he would have inherited the blessing, he was REJECTED: for he found NO PLACE OF "REPENTANCE"
(Malachi 1:2-4) yet I loved Jacob, And I hated E. S. A. U and they shall call THEM, The border of "WICKEDNESS" and, THE PEOPLE against whom the Lord hath indignation FOREVER
(Psalm 11:5-6) The Lord trieth the righteous: but the "WICKED" and him that loveth violence his soul hateth Upon the WICKED he shall rain "FIRE" and "BRIMSTONE" this shall be the portion of their cup
(Obadiah 1:18) And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of E. S. A. U for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall NOT BE ANY REMAINING of the house of
E. S. A. U. for the LORD hath spoken it
(not 1 remaining)
THUS SAYETH THE LORD
@@brentonstanfield5198 --- lol! You have had plenty of opportunities to step up to the plate to enlighten us all with your brilliant commentary, but you have *NEVER* once done so; Dr. Flowers cuts you off at the ankles every time you open your mouth exposing you as a charlatan, but the truth never sinks through that thick skull. The next time you see me say bring an argument feel free to jump in.
@@JohnQPublic11 - Well, I have never opened my mouth… 😂. It has all been written. But no, he rarely engages with me unless I have 150 characters or less.
@@brentonstanfield5198 --- If you had 50 million characters you could never come up with plausible explanations.
Calvinism is exegetically impossible. A man made presupposition to the text
I've got a few smart home devices and if I ask one of them if it loves me and it says yes I know it's a shallow, silly joke.
If I ask my daughter if she loves me and she says yes that means everything to me. It's her choice to love me based on how I try to show her fatherly love as best I can.
The entire point of the Bible is FREE WILL. Creating a sea of robots brings zero joy.
The Old Testament is all about God CHOOSING Israel as his people.
@@zzyyxx123 and all about Israel repeatedly not choosing God.
I lived in a very large, strong reform city/county. The superiority air was shocking. If someone wasn't Reform, they were considered stupid, uneducated, deluded, weak, silly, etc, etc, etc.....
Leighton makes a good point that there is a place for emotion, although an argument based solely on emotion must not trump the Bible.
Last century, and more the century before that, there was an idea floating around, from Gen 9, that in response to Ham's viewing of the naked Noah, God decreed that the descendants of Ham (the African peoples) would be slaves, that the enslavement of the African peoples a couple hundred years ago was how God wanted it to happen. The father of then-famous, or infamous, Duffey Strode, the 10 yr old Pennsylvanian street preacher who screamed and shouted his way onto Oprah, endorsed this "doctrine of servitude." Needless to say, it causes one to recoil emotionally, and that's good. But we also have to refute Biblically: when Noah wakes up with a hang-over and curses his innocent grandchild, and we don't see a "This saith the Lord," then we hesitate to make a doctrine out of it.
I also think of another side to the discussion on emotion. After forcing himself to accept Calvinism, witness Piper and Sproul comments of their initial lack of enthusiasm for the intuitively wrong philosophy, the new adherent now has a chance to "own the argument" with the ordinary Joe Christian who has not studied that much Bible and may be too familiar with the Kardashians instead. This can beef up one's pride: knee-capping the initial emotional response (understandable) then stumping the novice with verses from Romans 9 or their other dozen proof texts. "He had no answer. My position is correctamundo." I know the feeling as a former fundamental separatist who had the separation verses memorized (2 Cor 6:17, Eph 5:11, Romans 16:17, 2 Tim 3:5). Trust me, it makes your flesh feel good to tell others how wrong their church is and cite memory verses that catch them off guard. As a young Christian I was initially stumped by a Calvinist who cited verses that I did not even know existed, the same way I would later stump Leighton's fellow Southern Baptists on their naughtiness in not leaving the convention. Had my head handed to me at first. But was just as unconvinced as my Southern Baptist friends who, while they could not refute me in real time, they knew there was something about my position that did not add up.
Eph 4:32 - "Be ye kind one to another, forgiving one another..." I left out a key word that means to be emotional about it: tenderhearted.
So do you not believe we are in bondage to sin prior to receiving Christ? If you do believe in “bondage” to sin what else does that imply beside that we are not free?
I liked the approach of going through all of the tenses of the verbs in Romans 9. This is the same approach that Archbishop Dmitri Royster took in his Pastoral Commentary of Romans.
It's ironic but I was really wanting to become a Calvinist because my friend taught me calvanism so he took me to hear John macarthur, I was as ready to receive calvanism as possible but just didn't sense it was right and was looking for John to clarify things for me, then he said that the chief duty of man is to glorify God, and I knew right then that I could never become a Calvinist because it doesn't bring God more glory to create people and not draw them and later torture them for eternity or destroy them.
So did God "create people...to later torture them for eternity or destroy them?" He created exactly two people, Adam and Eve. Ever since then people are procreated by sexual intercourse between a man and a woman. Will you blame God for men and women having sex too? Genesis 5:1 "This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God." So far so good. God's likeness is always good and never evil. Genesis 5:3 "And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth." Hmm, what was Adam's image and likeness? SINFUL, unable to do any righteousness.
Wonderful, “beware of human philosophy” Paul knew philosophers would spoil Gods harvest.
The verb endured is not passive in Greek it's fully active. In fact, the only verb in that verse that is passive is prepared and that is probably MIDDLE voice which would definitely change the entire meaning of 9:22. All other verbs are active. Which Greek translation is he using? This is incorrect and if you got this verb tense wrong how many other tenses did you get wrong?
My biggest complaint with Calvinism is that it creates division. As Erik Makai, wrote below, I don't subscribe to any "ism". And if I had to, why not both?
Why do we have to have John Calvin as our head? I'm sure this has been pointed out before, but when Paul asks, "Did I die for you? Did Peter? Did Apollos?" Same question applies today. Did Calvin die for me? Did Luther? Did Augustine? Why are we so caught up in "theology" that we allow it to divide the church? If anyone has theology like Calvin, fine. If anyone is an Armeniasism? Fine. You believe in one baptism fine. You believe like Luther, fine. Christ is all. Christ is Lord. True revival cannot happen with a bride that is caught up with details that have no impact on the wedding.
It's not having John Calvin as anyone's head. Calvin just made the set of beliefs and interpretations popular.
There is nothing inherently wrong with labels. They provide a way to quickly identify beliefs, understandings, and practices.
@@peterfox7663 I respectfully disagree. Reformed Theology is fine. Calling it Calvinism is not. Although I do not agree that John Calvin set out to have his name identified as a "label", it happened. And for those who use his writings to distinguish their particular understanding of Christianity, then yes, he is a head. Am I condemning them? No. Am I accusing them of putting Calvin before Christ? No. But I disagree with those who say anything outside of Calvinism is heretical just like I disagree with those who call Calvinists heretical.
That is a very good point, did Johnny die for us? They might not even be saved if TULIP is the gospel that saves. But then they can not even be sure that they are saved until after they die.
These two on their own channels convinced me that Calvinism has the wrong interpretation of Romans 9 (basically grew up Calvinist and didn't know there was another biblical way of explaining this passage), but I'm struggling how to find a non-calvinist (Provisionist) church that holds the Bible in high regard. I don't know where to start. I only know pastors in the Calvinist camp. It seems like in my area, it's watered-down mega churches or Calvinists. Does anyone know if there's also a directory that I could go to that's like TGC or Acts 29 but not Calvinist? (Just wondering in case of moving next year in general and just starting over from scratch.) Thanks!
Use those websites to eliminate churches from your list, and listen to sermons online (especially Romans 8 & 9, Ephesians 1, John 6) and it will usually tell you what you need to know
Having the same dilemma. The churches in my area that are non calvinistic do not teach verse by verse through entire books of the Bible. In addition many of these churches are contemporary in their worship style
@@kennethmacgregor6427 Teaching verse by verse is by no means the only way to teach what the Bible says. Do the sermons teach Biblical truths? Sunday school and Bible studies are more opportunities to do that, as well.
@@kennethmacgregor6427 I can appreciate the lack of older worship. I am church shopping and few churches I've visited actually sing hymns, and even fewer out of a hymn book with four part harmonies.
For the time being I'll have to settle for more contemporary music and get my hymn fix at home or perhaps visiting other churches from time to time.
To some extent you may have to just put up with a church being Calvinistic if you want them to be respectful of scripture. I'm not saying don't try to find something more "Arminian", but in this day and age you have to put up with what you can find. I find that on grace and good deeds, and the synergy between them, and in my attitude to liturgy I'd best be described as Anglo Catholic, but I can't be a Catholic because of the Mary stuff and there's not many Bible believing Anglican churches out there. So I am in a Church of Scotland congregation with a very biblical minister who is probably more Calvinist in his thinking (though very open to other views).
Back in the 70’s, BF Skinner’s book about determinism, “Beyond Freedom & Dignity” was published. According to him, there is no freewill. We are total products of our environment and genes. Calvinism also maintains there is no freewill. But instead of all powerful environmental and genetic forces, an all powerful God pulls all the strings. Resulting in Determinism. Essentially the same thing.
Calvinism does NOT give God more glory!! It makes Him the author of evil (if he controls/determines all our actions and thoughts), makes Him unfair and unjust (arbitrarily loving some and not others and choosing some and not others for salvation even though we are all sinners), makes Him unkind (creating people only to predetermine/damn them to hell), makes Him a liar (saying Jesus died for all), and makes Him a deceiver (making some people believe false doctrines). It is offensive to the nature of God and is just so ridiculous! I hope Mike and Leighton do some more videos together 👍🙏😉 Thanks to you both in helping to guide me toward TRUTH 😁👍🙏
Quote " [God] ...controls/determines all our actions and thoughts. Prov. 16:9 “The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.” Prov. 16:3. “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord."
Prov. 19:21 “Many plans are in a man’s heart, but the counsel of the Lord will stand.” Jer. 10:23 “I know, O Lord, that a man’s way is not in himself, nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.”
Quote "...choosing some and not others for salvation." John 15:16 “You didn’t choose me. I chose you. I appointed you to go and produce lasting fruit, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask for, using my name.”John 15:19 “...I have chosen you out of the world.” John 6:44 “For no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws them to Me, and at the last day I will raise them up.” I have found about 40 others passages that say the same thing if you would like to see them.
Quote "[God] creating people only to predetermine/damn them to hell." Rom 8:29 "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."Rom 8:30 "Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." Eph 1:5 "[God] predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." Eph 1:11 "In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will." Hmm, NO mention of condemning ANYONE to Hell in ANY of these passages. WE condemn ourselves to Hell, God does not.
Quote "[Calvinists] make Him [God] a liar (saying Jesus died for all.) Calvinists DO say that Jesus DID die for all as it is biblical. 2 Cor 5:15 "He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again." Don't believe everything that Flowers & Winger says about Calvinists. Augustinianism (from which John Calvin got his theology from) predates Arminianism by about 1300 years.
Some SCRIPTURE you should read. Dan 4:35 “All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him. “What have You done?’ God is 100% sovereign.
Deuteronomy 32:39 "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand." So much for the sweet grandfather in heaven.
1 Sam 16:19 “Then He [God] struck the [Hebrew] men of Beth Shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD. He struck fifty thousand and seventy men of the people, and the people lamented because the LORD had struck the people with a great slaughter.” Ya better follow His commands are else.
Deut 20:16 “But of the cities of these peoples which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance, you shall let nothing that breathes remain alive, but you shall utterly destroy them..." Wow, this seems cruel, but I will not judge God like Arminians do calling Him a monster and so forth.
Joshua 6:21 “Then the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city. And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, ox and sheep and donkey, with the edge of the sword.” No grandfather in heaven stroking a kitten in His lap here.
Amos 3:6 “Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"
Isaiah 45:7 KJV "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
By the way the term "free will", that darling of Arminians is not found ANYWHERE in the New Testament.
There’s so many people that reject Calvinism right off. Never been a Calvinist and just don’t get it.
When I first heard about Calvinism I also thought "naaah that's not right" Well okay I thought naaah how can anyone read the bible and believe that God can be so cruel as to choose some to hell without giving them the choice to believe the gospel - was difficult to believe people believe this stuff. Never thought back then that Calvinism is this huge, I love hight it would maybe be as big as king james onlyism.
Yes! And when you dig deeper - you will find - a consequence of the doctrine of decrees - is that man is granted NO CHOICE in the matter of anything - because for every human event - and every human impulse - there is never granted more than ONE SINGLE PREDESTINED RENDERED-CERTAIN option. And man is granted NO CHOICE in the matter of what that option will be - and no ability to refrain.
Choosing who is saved doesn't make God cruel. See, He chooses under Arminianism too. Think about it. He has the power, He has the knowledge, He knows how to bring you to salvation without breaking your free will. We as human beings lead people to make choices all the time, and it doesn't break their free will. However God does not do that for everybody, therefore He's choosing not to do that for everybody, therefore in a sense He's choosing for them to go to Hell.
My concern with Calvinism is that it BUILDS another Jesus out of wood that becomes an idol and the members of God's house that become Calvinists become vessels of dishonor in God's house. Calvinism was constructed by the wisdom of the world which is of the EARTH so those that swallow the doctrine of Calvinism BUILD upon a foundation made of WOOD...Channels such as Leightons are made to BURN that house down so Calvinists can stand on the foundation of truth and be REFORMED into a vessel of honor.
2 Timothy 2
20 But IN A GREAT HOUSE there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
We are vessels made of CLAY that are FORMED by the doctrines we SWALLOW.
God will use us in whatever form we become and He can do this because He is our Creator and He can do whatever He wants to do with us TO MAKE HIS POWER KNOWN so that we can know that HE is God.
Doctrines come into God's house and DIVIDE the house which is Satan's will to make us look like fools in the eyes of those in the house of the wicked so they don't have the desire to come into this mess we created...There are people in the house of the wicked that are SEARCHING for the way out and it is our service to BRING them the way so they can FIND it...they aren't searching for God per se, but they are searching for THE WAY OUT, they just don't know that the way out is THROUGH Christ Jesus so we must persuade them to believe so they can be set free...the gospel is sent into the world to FIND them that do not HAVE PLEASURE in unrighteousness to enable them to FIND the way out and be set free...we are in a WAR against the wisdom of the world that forms men into unbelievers which keeps them locked up in the house of the wicked.
Proverbs 24:3
“Through wisdom is an house builded; and by understanding it is established:”
Colossians 4:5
“Walk in wisdom toward them that are without/OUTSIDE, redeeming the time.”
Colossians 1:28
“Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:”
1 Corinthians 3:9
“For we are labourers TOGETHER WITH GOD: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.”
God chose to work TOGETHER with His creatures to BUILD His house and the GOOD NEWS is that anyone can COME to Him through the testimony of Christ Jesus and be made PERFECT IN HIM.
OUTSIDE of Christ Jesus = imperfect
IN Christ Jesus = made perfect because only HE IS PERFECT.
If a man is found OUTSIDE of Christ it's because that man SWALLOWED the WISDOM OF THE WORLD that taught then that he/she is perfect just the way they are and that is unacceptable because the truth has been MADE KNOWN, therefore ignorance is no longer an excuse...If a man is found with ignorance IN them that is only because they REFUSED to SWALLOW the truth when it was delivered to them by God's faithful, loving, kind, EXHAUSTED servants of righteousness...The way OUT of unrighteousness is THROUGH the faith of Christ Jesus...GULP🦾😁
2 Thessalonians 2
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but HAD PLEASURE IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.
Ephesians 4:18
“Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the IGNORANCE that is IN them; because of the blindness of their heart:”
Acts 17
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; BUT NOW commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.💌
Correct. Idolatry is abhorrent to God. Calvinism has erected a very different God than the God revealed in the Bible.
I'm not a Calvanist and never have been, and just like Mike, I also thought that this system doesn't harmonize with all of Scripture. I also think that it's pretty suspicious if the Church had no such interpretation of how Eternal Salvation works out in regards to the Saints for roughly 1600 years of Church history. A dear brother of mine who doesn't adhere to Calvinism either told me something I found interesting. He said "Worship like a Calvanist, but preach like an Arminian."
A must read, the late Dave Hunt's book, " What Love Is This?"( Calvin's misrepresentation of God).
I had these views long before encountering your channel... but I got there because the greater context is obvious, as Mike suggests. These days I get concerned with the obsession over Calvinism more than Calvinism itself.
On free will, it seems to me that it is the being created with free will that defines our depravity. Even if we were to choose God, it would be our own will, apart from God's will. This free will is insufficient regardless of choice. The fall is the point of manifestation of our free will in a choice to exercise it to an end that demonstrates our separation from God. This was always God's plan as John notes about The Word being present at the very beginning of all things.
Pope Calvin said it so it must be true
Yes, well said. Romans follows a pattern, which Paul discloses early on--"to the Jew first and also to the Greek" (Romans 1:16). But his argumentation tends to reverse the pattern: he deals with Gentile godlessness in chapter one, and Judaic hypocrisy in chapter two, though he doesn't specifically pin the blame by naming names. The phrase "to the Jew first" comes up a few times, if I'm not mistaken, as a kind of reminder of Paul's basic concern. The Gospel has uprooted Judaism in a major way, and yet hasn't. The root remains, but lives through the ingrafted branch.
Chapter 9 is misunderstood, because it acts a break in Paul's line of argumentation, disconnecting chapter 8 from 10. The argument might be understood as going 8, 10, which deal with the believer's status in the righteousness which is not from the Law, then 9 and 11, which deal with Israel and covenantal issues.
The above is an oversimplification, but basically helpful.
I had someone give the “it brings God more glory” argument for the majority text.
I actually thought it proved the opposite.
Romans 9:22-23 "In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction. He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory."
My experience with calvinism was like this.
I was raised in church, and was familiar with the whole bible. I had just finished a time in my life where I was listening to Christian radio preaching by 4 different pastors, 2 -3 hours a day, every Day for 4 years. One was John McArthur.
Then I was exposed to calvinist doctrine.
At first I was put off, because every point they made, I could think of bible verses directly contradicting them.
Then I realized, that John McArthur had very different meanings and implications all that time, which I never understood. So I knew the "double speak" that was being employed.
I was still ignorant of a lot of calvinism, but my first impression was they were being weird with scripture, and didn't clearly teach what they meant.
DW: Wonderful Testimony!!! Especially where you discerned the degree to which Calvinism is DOUBLE-SPEAK!! The very reason men like McArthur and Piper are voices of influence within Calvinism - is because they are experts in its DOUBLE-SPEAK. God gave you discernment! God is good! :-]
@@dw6528 amen
Good discernment bro!
(Luke 8:11) “Now the parable is this: *the seed is the word of God.*
(Luke 8:12) *“Those beside the road are those who have heard;* then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that *_they will not believe_* _and be saved._
As a reformed guy I agree piety is not a good foundation to build you theology on.
I ping pong between election by grace alone and election by God's foreknowledge of our choosing Christ!
I'm a Calvinist/ have reformed theology. This is mainly due to after being saved, listening to sermons from Voddie Bachum, Paul Washer, and John MacArthur. I am first and foremost a Christian and boast in nothing but Christ and Christ crucified. I use the title of Calvinism in order to couch and define my own beliefs on soteriology, eschatology, and the solas. I attend and serve in a non-denominational "Mega-Church" Why? because that's where God has put me and I have a spiritual family that loves me. What concerns me is the absolute vitriol I see in comments from other Christians. Instead of rebutting ideas and theology (of which we both might be wrong) in a loving manner, or talking about things we agree on, we (Calvinists) are called: heretics, prideful, boastful, unbelievers, unintelligent, people who don't read their Bibles or care for doctrine, lovers of man more than God, twisters of scripture, idolaters, etc. There are Christians assuming or telling other Christians who are Calvinists, whom go to church, worship, pray, tithe, do missionary work, evangelize, that they don't love God. Why? I don't think Armenians are loving the wrong God and hating the right one, I don't believe that they are intentionally leading people astray and damning them, but why is that grace not extended to Calvinists. From what I've seen in comment sections it seems as though non-Calvinists view us not as brothers (who have differing opinions or interpretations), but legitimate enemies to the Faith. Why? I have seen people hyperbolize the "dangers" of a specific theology to be greater than that of unbelief. So please, I urge you brethren respond to each other in grace, love, and compassion, (that doesn't include commendation or harsh rebuke for someone whose view on the specificities of atonement is different from yours.) We are ALL growing in Christ and none of us will ever understand, let alone know it all, on this side of eternity.
One big thing for me regarding Calvinism, is their belief that
God is dishonest. This in regard to Limited Atonement.
@@dirkfirkle No.
If I was meeting someone new at my house, and I knew
only one thing about them. That he/she was super allergic
to dairy products. If I offered the person some ice cream,
that I didn't have, knowing the person wouldn't accept it,
that would be dishonest on my part.
In limited atonement, God is offering something He doesn't
have (atonement) to certain people. That would be dishonest.
Add to that, the inability to pray for that person to be saved,
after preaching the gospel to them. Your prayer for their
salvation would be sin. In Calvinism, God already made that
decision.
So in many cases, if you pray to God to save that
person, you would be disagreeing with God's decision, as if
you are smarter than God. Because in many cases God already
decided He was not going to save him/her.
If God did decide to save that person, then you would be praying
to God to save, as if reminding Him about it. Just in case
He forgot or something.
God is not going to have mercy on you, Garrett. He only has mercy on whom he elected. Sorry, it's not you. That's the God of Calvinism.
@@goldenarm2118 Do you deserve mercy?
@@garrettmorano3038 Of course not. I sure hope God picked me.
We love Him because he first froze us 😂
God in His free will set us free!
Sanctification = Relationship!
Presuppositions Rule!
you can believe that , but , that is literally what it says .. Believe the written word first .. theologize as necessary , not the other way around.. saying a catchy phrase can lead many astray
Calvinism is not more pious! It does not bring God more glory!
What’s easier, for God to predetermine everything and therefore know the outcome OR for God to give legitimate free will and still have the kingdom of darkness in checkmate?
Definitely the second which is far more impressive. God is too good to be beat, He doesn’t need to “cheat” His own design for nature including human beings by predetermining their choices. He sees, He knows, and yet He loves SO much He still actually cares to send His people by His Spirit to witness to all, even those He knows will reject. He takes NO PLEASURE in the death of the wicked. He wants all to repent, but will not force it. Just like He didn’t force Adam and Eve to NOT eat from the tree. He could have, but in His TRUE sovereignty, He decided to let them choose while compelling them to choose “life”.
I’m sort of in the middle right now, it seems I’m a Calvinist Tuesday and an Armenian Wednesday and somewhere I’m between on Thursday 😂.
So please forgive me but would it be fair to say that God
1:has every thing down to the movements of an atom planned out
And 2: actually allows human beings to make a free will choice to accept Christ.
And 3:the last two need to be in harmony?
im dealing with issues in my relationship with God, ive been introduce into calvinism i was like 6 months of faith and since then im not a peace and its really annoying to try to comprehend what is right in the pratice of my faith.
Im so exhausted, i have friends who are calvinists, and some friends that are not, and im always standing in the between. im wonder what should i be doing and it really hurts, i also sense that i dont have the intimacy that i had with God and his spirit as i had in the bgining. i don't know if its because i kind of been passive and pushed the thinking too far as if i didn't need to do anything ( cause God was in control) wich brang me far from humility and submission to God and in piety.
And it is my fault. I dont think calvinism is (bad) i think that it is dangerous maybe to wrongly interpret it ? Im just so confuse about this and frankly i just wish i never knew this doctrine, cause now its like i can't remove that thinking and that way of interpreting.. I just want to serve God. im at 5 years of conversion and i had like 1 good year of bold faith and fire ...
I dont think that christian life is what im living right now and all of that brings me also a lot of condemnation.
At the time I started to think that i didn't want to believe something that wasn't true, and calvinism was the thing that seemed the truth of ( how) to live the faith. I was kind of feeling stupid to believe something else (because of LOGIC) that is in the doctrine itself.and the bible and the glory of God and his sovereignty so i just grabbed onto it.
Im trying to deconstruct that but at the same time i always have things that bring me back to it everytime.. i talk to someone and it makes me doubt about my position about calvinism.. and after that i read some book who talks about calvinism and i see things in a way ive never though about and im like wooahh.. and here we go still confused.... its really annoying.. sorry for letting that out like that. it is heavy on my heart for a long time now. Im kind of scared to talk about this at my church since ( calvinism is what most people believe i think) .. so im kind of ashamed to question that.. and i doubt i will get the right answers ? .. All of that do not proceeds of faith.. its questions and doubts instead of trusting in the person of Jesus.
thank you for what you do, i realise how i must approach God or the way i pratice faith with such humility when i interpret, think or practice these things.. they have so much weight and importance. God bless you all..
Alexandre, wow thank you for sharing. I would encourage you to take an extended break from the controversy.
It might be an important season for you to simply pursue receiving God's love, pursue following Jesus, and pursue walking in the Spirit and growing in knowledge of the Scriptures in a big picture way.
Are you familiar with the category of books on Spiritual Formation? It's essentially focusing on applying spiritual theology, walking with God in prayer, receiving His love, and cultivating intimacy with the Lord.
There can be a time later to come back and re-attempt to work out your position regarding Calvinism. But bigger things are at stake for you at the moment.
Blessings!
@@chaddonal4331 thank you ! Im going to try to do this ! I think it’s better if i close RUclips and all the influences outside of the Bible, and return to the basics. Thank you for your words and your grace, may the Lord bless you in his goodness.
I want to follow up on how you are doing. I actually am right now in the same boat and because I saw your comment and that it is exactly what I am going through, feelings and doubt and all, I realize this is how bad Calvinism is. It’s BAD. And this comment helped me see its harm. I hope you are doing better and have found more ground with God and are closer with Him than ever before
Hey, thank you very much for the follow up, it is better than before, i wouldn't say that calvinism is bad cause it is a description of the miraculous sovereignty of God, but it can get complicated for a young christian to navigate in big theology of predestination, free-will, personnal responsability of men.
Now i see why God brought me there and he is still holding me.
I was simply not trusting in him, and i was not being in love with him, it was my flesh if i can say it like that. Because i was focusing on what (i ) had to (do) i wanted to believe the right thing. Beliving was a work for salvation in a kind of way for me, i didn't act on it like that but inwardly this is what"s going on and sometimes i was putting hard weights on myself , ( my own rules). and i still do...im thinking to myself, if i would be God i would be demanding i would want things to be pefect, no right to make a mistake ( that is a lie from the devil) .. but it was fitting with my old nature ( my flesh).. wich is dead... Thats the plan of the devil, that make us think we are like God, tht we know better, that we are not enough for him and that he is not that good towards us.
As i grow i understand that phase that i was in a lot better and it was a crushing of my pride, it was kind of a desert, it was a mix of multiple things and i was panicking instead of putting myself in the hands of the potter, could say more things but i will stay short and sweet. Whats is going for you ? How are you ? @@bluestar8700
Would Mike be a 1 or 2 point Calvinist?
*TWO EXCELLENT POINTS*
Mike: Minute 3:03
“If I ignore Calvinism and read through Romans, then I don’t get (i.e. reach the conclusion of) Calvinism. But! If I start with Calvinism, and then I read Romans 9, I will get (i.e. reach the conclusion of) what I started with”.
Mike: Minute 1:08
“Years ago I interacted with Calvinism on a bigger spectrum, because you bump into people who are Calvinists. And in my experience, they generally come at you with philosophy more-so than exegetically looking at the text. But when they do come exegetically, it becomes obviously a few very specific passages, such a Romans 9, Romans 8 and John 6……..”
SUGGESTION:
Consider the possibility that Calvinism induces a love-hate relationship with its underlying foundational doctrine - EXHAUSTIVE DIVINE DETERMINISM (EDD).
- For any instance in which the Calvinist finds EDD palatable - he will treat EDD *AS-IF* it is TRUE
- For any instance in which he finds EDD un-palatable - he will treat EDD *AS-IF* it is FALSE
And this is the pattern one will observe with the Calvinist reading of scripture.
- For any verse in which presupposing EDD leads to a conclusion he finds palatable - he will treat EDD *AS-IF* it is TRUE
- For any verse in which presupposing EDD leads to a conclusion he finds un-palatable - he will treat EDD *AS-IF* it is FALSE
Consequently - the Calvinist can be found affirming his doctrine in one statement - and denying it the next - without cognition.
Embracing EDD produces his condition of DOUBLE-MINDEDNESS.
The aspect of Calvinism I find most troubling, is the (apparent) belief by Calvinists, that all humans are born/made by God, incapable of so much as being saner than those He wiped out in the flood. About whom the Book says;
"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
Which sounds to me a whole lot like being "totally depraved". The idea that large numbers of people are convinced that most of the humans they encounter are that depraved (or worse), causes me to think they are extremely vulnerable to being callous (and pompous) toward their fellow humans in general, regardless of how much they might claim they are not. I don't believe such a harsh "assessment" can just be set aside at will, as though they had complete mastery over their own hearts and minds.
And them telling me words to the effect of; "Oh, you don't understand; It's God that gives me such wonderful control over my thoughts and emotions that I am able to dependably be/get beyond my belief that I am dealing with totally depraved people, not me"- doesn't convince me one little bit. In fact, it makes me MORE skeptical of them actually being capable of such non-judgmental thinking as would be required to get past that belief. (And I've seen them go into an "All-knowing God" routine, so many times when someone disagrees with them, accusing the offender (without any qualifiers at all) of denying/being against- God's sovereignty/Will/Word or the like, that I now consider Calvinism little more than a set of doctrines that promote narcissism/self-worship in some)
Yes! Not only that. Per the doctrine of decrees - the only impulses which are granted existence within the human brain - are those impulses fixed by infallible decree. Which means - in Calvinism - there is no such thing as a human having an impulse he can call his own.
When you understand Calvinism you understand (1) your own depravity workout God and (2) the goodness of God… and that the only goodness you have comes from Him. You want more of that goodness in the world… and you understand that by God’s design, it comes into the world by the proclamation of the Gospel to people who were just like you. We desire to see more people filled with the goodness of God.
@@brentonstanfield5198 - "When you understand Calvinism you understand (1) your own depravity workout God and (2) the goodness of God… "
I think I do understand Calvinism, and I think Calvinists are just plain wrong about the need/desire for someone with sovereignty such as God has, to micromanage His creature's every thought and action. It's not like we (or anyone/thing else) have the power to stop Him from doing whatever He wants to, whenever He wants to, to anyone or anything in existence, period.
Conflating THAT kind of Sovereignty, with some super-OCD type condition a "wimpy" god might suffer from, is basically a form of blasphemy, to me.
@@johnknight3529 - I don’t think you understand the implications of what you are talking about. All we are saying is that the God we worship truly is the creator God and that this is truly His world. He isn’t co-creating it with us. “Micro-managing” isn’t the word used… “creation” is the word. There is nothing to “manage”. God simply creates all things. We were nothing. God made us what we are and what we will become. We contribute nothing on our own because we have nothing on our own.
@@brentonstanfield5198 - "I don’t think you understand the implications of what you are talking about. All we are saying is that the God we worship truly is the creator God and that this is truly His world."
No, it's not all you're saying, I suggest. For you are adding many "details" that to me are simply beyond your "authority" to add, in my view. No where does the Book say a human cannot think a thought, or have a feeling He doesn't place in their mind. It just doesn't, or you would be able to show me such ACTUAL WORDS in the Book, and not just some examples of Him doing such things sometimes, which I can read in the Book. He is not obligated to do something all the time, simply because He does it in some instances, I suggest. Because He is God, and not some sort of Super Computer that just carries out its programming without discretion, I believe.
"“Micro-managing” isn’t the word used… “creation” is the word."
I used the word, and I will continue to use the word, because it means what I am trying to convey. "Creation" is NOT what I'm trying to convey (and you and every other Calvinist on the planet have no right to dictate what words I use to convey what I want to convey.)
"There is nothing to “manage”. God simply creates all things."
Of course he does, but things exist in the real world, not just in someone's imagination. He made all creatures, but that doesn't mean He made every image of a creature a man might "create" in his head. I think you're giving humans far too much "glory" by treating our imaginings as somehow equivalent to His actual Creation.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
I think that what you call "piety" here is what Christian philosophers call a "great making property". Alvin Plantinga and Wm. Lane Craig (and many others) write well on this. God giving us true libertarian free will is indeed a "great making property" which extends and broadens God's love and greatness. Calvinist determinism is a severe restriction on God, lessening his greatness. Calvinists fear that God's sovereignty is threatened by granting that man has free will and they have erected an entire convoluted system to "protect" God, so to speak.
I fell for it but God let me see
Many Baptist are actually Calvinists believers especially when they follow people like John MacArthur. Admittedly, John MacArthur sounds good initially, right up to the point when he says once someone is "saved" they will still inherit the kingdom of heaven even if they continue in "unrepentant" sin.
John MacArthur's sprinkles in untruth with his teachings and is like D-con rat poison which is 99.995% good stuff that rats love, but that other .005% is deadly.
Any teacher that literally teaches with 99+% accuracy would be remarkable; heavenly. Surely not the purveyor of rat poisoning.
@@chaddonal4331 When he (John MacArthur and other calvinist) teach someone can sin and not repent for that sin and still expect to go to heaven just because they are the elite and "saved", then that is some pretty .005% deadly stuff.
I've heard him say it, my brother heard him say it, the difference being I don't believe the man, but my brother does.
People have been trying to guess the return of Jesus since the beginning and John MacArthur is just another confused false "pre tribulation" rapture pusher despite his education and scholarly degrees.
Satan likes nothing better than to slip in a little false belief that cause someone to be lost.
Would some of you please invite Allen apart for a conversation about this topic. He seems to be confused and trying to compromise grace with God election of the saints and at the same time not accepting God’s predestination of non-believers.
His following is too big for that kind of humble pie
@@christianuniversalist
Christianity in a nutshell
Have you met him in person? I do t think he’s like that. It’s worth the invite at least.
@@Dad.son_drums
Allen is confused - the entire globe for that matter - you for instance don't know who the elect predestined saints are - let's see if you agree with God's written word
PREDESTINED ELECT
(Romans 11:1-2) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
God hath not cast away his people which he "FOREKNEW"
(Romans 8:29) For whom he did "FOREKNOW" he also did predestinate to be CONFORMED to the IMAGE OF HIS SON
(Isaiah 45:4) for Jacob my servants sake and ISRAEL mine ELECT
SAINTS
(psalm 148:14) He also exalteth the horn of HIS PEOPLE, the praise of ALL HIS "SAINTS" even of the children of ISRAEL, a people near unto him. Praise ye the Lord.
(Acts 9:13) Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to THY "SAINTS" at Jerusalem
(Revelation 13:10 kjv) he who leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity he who killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword here is the patience and faith of the "SAINTS"
@@Revelation-cb1rb taking texts out of context to serve as your pretext is not a good thing to do. Romans 11, Isaiah and Psalms are talking about Israel, who were His elect nation which didn’t go all to heaven by the way. Same as Judah who was chosen directly by Jesus and didn’t end up with Him. ““I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.”
John 17:9-12
Romans 8 is talking about our destiny in the future to take the image of Christ that we don’t have today.
Rev 13 is talking about the ones that are left in Tribulation, which the church won’t go through. And Acts 9 it’s about one person that was not faithful to God in the middle of the early church. So, I guess you are also confused.
Dr how do I contect Christ Date
Orthodox Theology starts and ends with Christology.
This is the most important thing to get right and then everything else falls into place.
Ace.
So what does EO teach differently about Christology than western theologies?
And how then do other topics all fall into place? (i.e. How is the Calvinist/non-Calvinist debate solved?)
I'm not even a 1 point calvinist
There is no point 😂
One of the best ways to guard against Calvinism is to come out of one of the other false ideas of Scripture..I was in the SDA chruch for over 30 years..And just doing the smallest investigation into the ideas of the SDA organization, just snowballed into the discovery of so many false ideas..
Understanding the scriptures as I am seeing Mike And Leighton see it, Calvinism is an absolute joke..My neighbor(Hard 5 point Calvinist) seeing me coming out of the SDA church , tried to show me Calvinism..but very slyly ..And I saw the errors almost immediately..
Understanding the simple Gospel of Grace, is a very intense shield to false gospel messages..
Amen. If Calvinists plainly preached what they really believe, it would be a huge turn-off and nobody would come back to that church.
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