When Discmania was a boutique style disc company, that was a winning model right there. I understand they were at the mercy of Innova’s supply, but that was indeed a great time!
It's really about selling discs. Simon realized that after signing with MVP. He said, "my job is to sell discs" HOD, marketing isn't working.. Eagle sold how many "Envy's" with a cool stamp? Stock disc, new stamp, star player equals sales. Seems like there is a lot of missed opportunity. Investors that don't understand the industry have destroyed many small companies .
Very deep analysis, Drew! I might use some of this in my class. The key point to make, though, is: the sport has a bright future. There was a peak, and after a peak you get a hangover. That happens all the time. The sport is still there, and it will survive and grow.
The "boom" of disc golf in the 2010's was directly correlated with the rise of jomez and the increase in quality and frequency of their productions. The "fall" of disc golf has been directly correlated with the takeover of major coverage by dgn. Just an observation.
And the Boom in 2020 with new players that most companies thought was going to last for a while longer when I knew it was more an excuse to get out during the lockdowns for some people who were not serious on playing disc golf with more then 6 discs duplicated and a bag. Sure, some started play during this time playing disc golf as a major hobby but it was mainly people coming back to disc golf after being away for a very long time. The last and good problem is now there are so many small brands lead by Trash Panda that are making discs now on their own with older injection molding equipment that the sport seems watered down almost, some like Trash Panda or the other one from Washington or Oregon using recycled plastic or ones like Dooms Day Discs have made a name for themselves in this market, two of them with better for the environment discs and one Dooms Day Discs For unique discs nobody else is making right now but a bunch of the other small brands like Thought Space are just making the same as say X bigger brands.
@@caseysmith544 I believe they call that market saturation then brand dilution. There’s only so many discs that can be sold in a given time, and only so many brands that can benefit from their disc sales.
Jomez still has next day coverage of all tour events and Worlds and Champions Cup. The only major’s that have delayed post produced coverage is European Open and USDGC. Neither are owned by the DGPT.
The grass roots is disgolf. That's what Brodie brings to light about the PDGA not being as professional as they try to act. That's why the Southern National tour was started by Jim Orum back in the day. Disc golf will always be 90% weekend warriors in it for the local company.
When your entire economy is disc golfers, players leaving the sport, less recreational players, And 99% of the labor is volunteers, it's hard to see it as professional. I hate to pile on, because a lot of companies are hurting. But, I've said that disc golf management is THE problem. Even our grassroots is not really organized.
Did the math for you, Drew. You're so right. On a $1,000,000 contract, if you sell disks for $20 and your cost is $5 to make a disk, all costs, labor materials, etc. You have to sell 66,666.66 disks to break even on that investment. Is that a sign?
Disc golf has been a underground sport for 50 years. It's the people that are the problem. It's not a main stream sport. They don't make millions. In fact I watched a video from dgpt and they were saying they don't ever break even. It's like professional Surfing, Skate Boarding, man bike racing. Need to just except it for what it is and just joy that there is even disc golf to watch.
Drew, please read the questions rather than screenshot and make us read. This type of video is great to *listen* to while doing other things around the house. Super frustrating to stop what I'm doing, pause, and read the screen so I know what you're talking about. That's going to end up with a lot of people not finishing the video. I think it's too your own interest to read the questions and keep us *listeners* all the way through. Of course it's different for your videos where watching is necessary, but this shouldn't be one of those videos.
Or…finish what you’re doing (because if you’re doing something else you probably aren’t really listening anyways), sit down and watch the video with your full attention. As someone stated above it’s RUclips, not a Spotify podcast.
DD's been such a fascinating company. They were on the forefront of putting good disc golf content on youtube and their disc showcases were an especially great source of information for new players. Then they never managed to build from that. After establishing themselves with some solid molds (verdict, felon, escape, trespass, justice etc.) it felt like they got desperate trying to create new hit molds but never really believed in what they did. Can't struggle with your base disc lineup for so many years without it reflecting on you as a manufacturer. Years of bad strategy culminated in that Ricky gamble. Seems like it didn't pan out.
I appreciate you discussing this even though some may not be happy about it. Been a big fan of you since I got to know you at texas states (i drove the van. ) Keep being you man.
ROI for Kona and Rick wasn't only the fault of the players. When you're putting out old products with tired stamps, it doesn't help. At one time, Rick had over 6 different raiders with the same stamp or a very close variant. The thought process there was a fail. Similar to trying to sell 10,000 (no exaggeration) prototype Agents. It just doesn't work.
Thanks for explaining this Drew, there is a bunch that we dont know. Bringing in your opinion as a player and business owner is something we aren't getting much.
DD could've been super well off with Ricky's merch, for example, if they weren't choosing to charge upwards of $30+ for tour series discs and such. I'd have bought a CRAP TON of his felons and slammers if they weren't so individually overpriced.
I feel like innova is just gonna keep being the smartest company from a business perspective even though every year it sucks to see some great players leave. After awhile it always seems like that ended up being a smart move.
Calvin’s really smart to just stay where he is until he’s done with it all. Slow and steady. He does pretty dang good with Innova, Millenium, Squatch, and Flight Factory contracts and sales.
Same thing happened in my industry (consumer telescopes) - we had a huge growth spike during the pandemic but it has come down considerably in the last two years (but still above pre-pandemic levels). Good thing we are leaders in our industry, and did not hire up radically or overspend a bunch of new money, as we knew that type of growth was not sustainable. Sounds like some of these newer disc golf companies were naive about what was actually going on during the pandemic growth spurt (aka "hope planning"), and now we will see some contraction. It's just normal business, really. But yeah, savvy owners can use that growth spurt to sell their company at an inflated price by convincing others that the spike is sustainable
It's simply foolish to have assumed that the initial growth trajectory would remain at the same rate without proper infrastructure (well-designed courses, healthy state of local club operations, quality live-streaming tools and capabilities). Until those issues are resolved, we cannot expect a corporate environment to have continuity across economic ebbs
The financial results for Swedish companies is public information. The 2022 and 2023 financial results for HoD was a loss of about $7.5 Mil per year. Lat64 did a $10 Mil profit in 2022 but did just break even in 2023. Their revenue was down from $37 Mil to $23 Mil. It’s gonna be interesting to see how the results come in this year.
Just for a reference, if you had $1billion you could lose 100k a month and it would take 833 years to run out of money. Losing it daily would knock it down significantly, but you are still looking at a little over 27 years before you're broke. A billion is A LOT!
It seems fairly simple. If a player feels they are worth x amount of dollars then prove it. Give them a base salary so they can make a living and increase the prize money. If a player isnt performing that well then he or she better start interacting with the public to sell their brand. I have gone to 3 pro tournaments and these players walk around talking to each other instead of the fans. It might not be a bad idea to send some of these young people to a sales class so they can get the big picture. As a person in sales if i dont perform i dont get paid. Period.
Honestly I think a lot of people stopped buying discs because of the constant “drops”. Also, we got tired of buying discs that didn’t fly like the previous mold. So we would wait to see what the reviews were and decide to hold off. That’s why the second hand market is thriving.
I believe he's talking about Silas Schultz. Who made the disc golf diss track of the decade (light-heartedly making fun of Drew). It was a great opportunity for Drew to make one of his own and start something fun. But he was offended and it was taken down. Seems like someone still has some bitter bugs in his pants about it.
Interesting to think about how Go Throw’s new tour performs this year taking all this into consideration. If they lean into the grassroots nature of disc golf, they may end up creating a superior product for viewing to DGPT/DGN.
Maybe there is a reason Issac hasn't made an announcement. If HOD are struggling why would a person of Issac's caliber take that chance. Ezra made a smart move and moved to a company that doesn't look like they are hurting at all.
Buhr may be winning a lot of tournaments, but his marketability is poor at best. I'm willing to bet KT (sorry, KL now), is the #1 mover of plastic for all of HoD.
Been playing consistently since 2009 and stopped keep in up with the disc golf scene around 2015. I don’t know any new discs, new brands. Never heard the term “HOD” (had to look it up). I throw the same molds I was throwing 10 years ago and most of it is hoarded winnings from AM days that I still have back ups of. I can’t be the only one not consistently buying any product. The days of needing the newest bag or mold will fade with every player eventually.
I've been playing for longer and similarly have way more discs than I ever use. I still pick up a few discs a year, not because I need to, but mainly to help out the retailers and industry as a whole. Plus it's fun to have a new disc to learn and incorporate into your game now and then. But you yeah, no way I'm paying $30 for a disc.
I buy flat top DX Rocs when I stumble on them, and maybe once or twice a year I'll try a new mold that looks novel like the Rollo. Beyond that, everything in my bag is from 2005 or earlier.
DGPT really screwed the pooch paywalling the organic growth of disc golf and cancelling out all the hard work of jomez and others that were doing the right strategy pre DGPT…imagine a regular live feed on RUclips with 15k viewers for every tournament …would be a different landscape with that marketing power center…DGPT they need a reckoning, boycott DGPT
I don’t think the long term strategy of Jomez was sustainable. Patreon support and young dudes on the road filming a tour they neither owned nor paid to broadcast. I’m also not sure 15k live viewers is paying any bills long term. I guess we’ll see if the Go Throw strategy, which I would imagine is closer to your view will succeed.
@@EMichaelBall It probably takes hundreds of thousands streams if not millions. Major advertisers don’t care about 100k views on a Jomez video. Disc Golf is expense to film and broadcast. Multiple cameras over a vast swath of land. It takes a bunch of money, or people who want to do it for nothing.
10:02 One of the things that draws people into disc golf is affordability. You’re supposed to be able to go to a shop and buy a beginner set or some used discs for less than $30, and then go play a course for free. The more price increases happen, the less the sport will grow.
Not according to my 30+ years experience of selling discs. The equipment is still cheap in 2025. The cost of getting to and from a DGC can be a factor for people on low incomes, however. And that is why when I design a course in a community, it is designed for the people of that community, and if other people like it, that's an added bonus.
I wonder how things would of been if Paul never got his 10 year deal. or least never came out with the details. i feel like a lot of the issues came out when that did. People started comparing themselves to Paul and that contract.
House of Discs has many great molds… but, without a cohesive approach it is hard to decide what to buy. Not everyone can throw a general, DD3, or raider amazingly but… they have discs like The Felon, Explorer, and the harp which are very useful for many players, but maybe don’t bag. A more cohesive image is necessary going forward.
As you mentioned, MVP, Innova, and Discraft weathering the storm, I think they were able to because they didn't get all "wide eyed" with the covid dollars flowing in like the majority of the other brands seemed to. The brands that got super super excited about ALLLLL THIS MONEY flowing around ended up over promising things like contracts, selling out to a corporation, or just mismanaging things all around and are now the ones struggling the most. The ones who stayed calm so to speak, kept their wits about them, made smart and calculated moves, are doing the best and not really struggling or scrambling for anything. Great video Drew, as always 😁.
MVP gave Simon a million a year (allegedly) which isn't being cautious. They rode James Conrad's world championship and they did make smart moves but many people weren't buying the technology they were trying to market before that. If they gave that money to any other player I'm not so sure it would work out so well. People weren't really buying the technology they were trying to market. It was a bit of a meme company for a while. I do think your logic applies to innova though. Discraft has been around so long and in other things besides disc golf. They do have Paul for a million a year too.
I never said they were being "cautious". Each of those companies made smart, long term decisions. MVP, yes they signed Simon to a million a year for 10 years contract, but they knew he knew how to move plastic and sell. His following on his socials is huge compared to others. They really thought that through beforehand. Bringing Eagle on next (albeit while he was still recovering) was essentially the same as Simon. While he doesn't do the kind of marketing that Simon does, their names together really help push things. Their legacy of being the "crush boys" is really unmatched by any other duo in the sport. Yes, you're right that if anyone else had gone to MVP other than Simon, they wouldn't be as successful as they are, but they knew that, which is why they picked him. Innova and Discraft have been around for so long and make things for Ultimate Frisbee as well as disc golf so they are able to get revenue from sales of other things, plus them being smart about handling the covid boom basically.
I have no proof to back this up, but it feels to me like HoD only cares about Latitude and Discmania. I’ll be interested to see where those two stand vs the rest of their brands in a few years.
The question I have is did HoD intentionally buy other brands to extract savings that make the investment back, even if it starves the company? A United States private equity company does this with newspapers.
I think disc golf companies should stop investing millions on the athletes, make it a production based income model. Company should cover basic expenses like travel, lodge, food, pro tour card. And then a salary to allow them to support a family. The rest of the money should be linked to their production in the field
Fantastic video Drew. Keep coming up with videos like this, your insight is very interesting. Explain the situation a bit more clearly for those who aren’t quite as in the know and you could be the TMZ of disc golf.
You can cut everyone from every team and I’d still buy discs. Hell. Might be cheaper plastic again. All these guys coming out with discs that just mark up the base price. They have been getting pretty crazy about it. 😅
When a product becomes lucrative, rich people love to dip their greedy, little fingers in it. They want an easy payday & then F off when the bubble bursts. The fall is disc golf is greed.
So this means Isaac to Gateway ? Bet MVP/Axiom has recouped the Simon nut already, see 'em on courses like crazy. Not a real active Drew watcher, but I seem to be here often of late ! Keep it up, love this kind of stuff.
Speaking as a "Covid" player, it's been a fun 4 years. I think the sport is going through growing pains as many disc golf companies are disrupting the market, the supply of discs on the market outweighs the demand, and some companies will just die off. Smaller companies with poor cash flow will die quickly, and bigger companies will die a slower death. There aren't many sports out there with 30 different brands and manufacturers. There aren't any sports with 6 different brand of hoops, holes, uprights, or bases. Over time, these things will work itself out
First of all, I like that some of you guys are speaking up about this stuff. As a business owner myself, I can tell you that disc golf in general made a huge mistake by over paying players instead of pushing the sport. Unfortunately disc golf has zero major sponsors, so players really cant be paid much. The average American household income is around 60k, so 99% of this country is making a living off that 60k. I would think that 60k plus whatever you earn in tournaments and merch sales would be a pretty good living for a 20 year old. If Nike or Adidas or something got invested, then the players could make more money. I literally think only Simon and Paul have the following to make big bucks. People change their entire bag for those guys. Nobody else has that cult style following. Without a major sponsor, these companies should have focused on getting the discs and merch into big box stores instead of over paying players. I dont even know any pro pickleball players, but Walmart and Target are loaded with pickleball stuff!! Overall, the covid boom was mostly because people had extra cash and time. The result of that over spending by our government is an economic downfall, and disc golf isnt that important for most players. My two cents anyways. Love the content, dont mind the airquotes either!! LOL
I’ll play devils advocate but a lot of disc golfers are cheap and refuse to spend money on things like pay to pay courses or live coverage because it’s not top level quality yet.
DG is, was, and always will be very niche, and VERY grasroots. Look at what the point of a VC investment group is. Dont be surprised if all HoD companies are stripped and start molding car parts for mass-produced shitboxes. VC groups are 100% about money. Dollars over discs is 100% where HoD is going in the future.
One thing about trilogy discs family is that their web stores have a shitty user experience. Going to the lat64 website and trying to figure out what molds they have and what plastics they have in stock is terrible. The DD website is just as clunky to navigate. That makes a terrible buying experience. I buy 70% of my new discs online and the rest i get from local shops and TDs. But my online disc purchases are like 90% from Innova, Infinite, or OTB websites because they are easy to navigate, have rewards programs, have decent prices and clearly communicate what discs are in stock.
Only 2 or 3 players are deserving of getting paid big money from sponsorship. All other sponsorship costs are ruining the game. That cash could fund better events.
will be interesting to see how DD(and westside) sales go in this upcoming year, now that you cant buy DD from the latitude site, lat64 has the best worldwide shipping deal, i bought from DD in the USA and the shipping was triple to get them to New Zealand, so i just buy them from lat64 with other trilogy discs, but now ya cant, i believe that will hurt them(obviously not just me buying them lol), as surely they were being paid dividends for those discs sold on that site, and now i wont be buying them as the shipping almost doubles the price of each disc
You can only saturate a market so much with a product, and only so many companies can profit from through a market correction when everyone has their discs already. Most people don’t buy more discs than they need and don’t have “collections” they have their bag and maybe a couple extras.
Too many old heads in disc golf are failing to do enough outreach and grow the sport. Pickleball has managed to solve this while being an objectively less skilled (and frankly less entertaining sport) and skyrocket itself into the mainstream.
I think more than any sport I've ever been associated with, disc golfers care more about how the product performs than who's pushing it. Make a good product, and people will buy it, star sponsor or not. One of the main reasons I throw Innova plastic is because I know how it's going to fly, and I know the company is going to be around in 10 or 20 years so I can get more. Spending a bunch of money on star sponsors isn't real smart IMHO.
Disc golf marketing today is the exact same scenario as the sports card boom of the 90's. Over hype, over production, too many companies. Eventually there's just not enough money in the sport to divy up. The bottom line is: who really needs 50+ discs? That's what the sport was banking on, and that 'boom' is just not sustainable in the long run. After all, it's just cheap colored plastic; just like the sports card market was founded on cheap colored cardboard. Neither one has a real lasting value. Plastic only lasts 20 years without serious degradation. Today there are way too many companies, too much product, too many unnecesary new molds, and not enough people to buy all the variations. Add to that mix sponsorship, and it becomes a failed business model.
The cost of discs is outrageous especially since it’s not Covid times anymore. The dgpt doesn’t run things well especially the media side of things. Kona and Ricky aren’t worth what they are paid let’s just be real. Kona has decent social media presence but no the skill to play on the pro level anymore. Ricky plays well but isn’t winning like he used and moving plastic the way they would like because let’s be honest those discs aren’t great and definitely not at the prices they want us to pay.
because you need to sell a LOT of discs to cover their sponsorship salaries. more discs then the industry sells in any given year. most people dont buy a disc solely based on who that company sponsors.
@clawshooter5867 mvp is older than you think, brought with them a different type of disc to separate themselves from the others, and has developed a good fanbase with solid distribution. players can help to an extent but a good business plan is more important. ive played 100+ tournaments and 1800+ different courses - have never thrown any mvp disc; why? because i already own hundreds of discs - i dont need any more.
Player sponsorships have always been a bad ROI. That's why Innova has historically been very frugal with it. They could sponsor half the field like Discraft is trying to do and 90% of players would take pay cuts to throw Destroyers and Firebirds but Innova keeps their purse strings closed for a reason. Only massive names like McBeth (THE winner) and Lizotte (likable social media star) really do much for ROI. Kristin, Matty O, Antilla, etc probably break even at best honestly.
Your “song of the summer” statement is kinda whack. Neither of y’all are that marketable. You had one good season and decided those tattoos were cool enough for your opinion to matter more than it does.
Ahhhh compare the careers bro. We play sport there is facts here. Making a song isn’t signature disc worthy unless the brand you’re playing for is grasping for straws. Thanks for coming. I just make videos, it’s your choice to watch them. Same with all the others who watch them.
@ I’m saying your career isn’t crazy enough to be talking this way. You’re not Simon or Paul or Ricky. You have won like 2 events. Also, the brand jumped on an opportunity to make money, much like you’re doing with this video. It’s not grasping for straws, it’s just marketing.
@@josh_the_hoddeI’m making a video about disc golf. Not making music. Keep stretching bro. Why are you here if you’re this salty? 😂😂😂 you don’t have to watch!
@ I was here to be informed, then you took a personal shot that had nothing to do with why the company was struggling at all. I’m just calling you out on it. I thought it was whack and it also isn’t logical to the overall argument. You are also downplaying how big that song was for a week in the community. They make discs for tournament wins now, I think making a disc for a song that caught some clout makes sense by that thinking.
@@josh_the_hoddewhen clout is all you can offer the brand… Gotta capitalize I agree. Regardless. Have a good night man. I don’t wanna go back and forth. I appreciate you watching my videos.
I dont understand y they didnt get with kona and do a special disc run to help her with the cancer treatment and heath recovery hell they could be seen as amazing for both sides it could be a 60/40 kona split
What’s a reasonable margin on discs? Because as great as Ricky is, I have a hard time imagining almost any player moves enough plastic to recoup a million a year. Maybe McBeth because of his legacy and Simon because of his social media presence and fan base. I mean even if a disc only cost $1 to make (which I’m sure it’s more) then that’s a ton of discs to recoup that marketing cost. That said, I’m happy for any player who was able to cash in on the boom.
Disc golf is different than a lot of sports in that the main money comes from sponsorships not ticket sales and tournament wins. I am guessing the dynamics of this model are different.
There’s one big part of this that’s not being mentioned. DGN absolutely blows. Bland commentary, bad quality, and lackluster production. Jomez and disc quality are what drove this sports growth. Jomez innovated and pushed the growth. I played disc golf around 2012-2013, but didn’t really start playing a lot and understanding the sport till 2018 when I saw a McBeth round on Jomez. I firmly believe that if the DGPT put its money into Jomez that they would do a better job at producing high quality coverage. On disc quality, there are so many manufacturers now that make quality discs and it has lead to some over saturation. HOD just has zero competitive advantage when they’re trying to charge as much as they do for discs that I can get from MVP, Discraft and Innova for less. Is a Drive or Wraith really that much different than a Grace? Enough to justify a $5-$7 increase?
I think it’s always going to be a grassroots/ hippie sport. They messed up trying to grow it faster than the demand. And a lot of people got sticky fingers wanting a piece of the pie.
Was this the news that would Flip the Dg world upside down you posted on X about? If so, meh Anyone paying attention has seen this as the writing on the wall since mid 2023.
so HOD needs to sign jerm to a reasonable contract since hes proven to move plastic, but as someone making money off of jomez and dgpt, wouldnt need the giant contract that a ricky or kona got. or would this scenario not make sense?
21 air quotes in this video for an average of 1 air quote every 54.95 seconds in case anyone was wondering/taking a shot for each one.
I was going to count them, but then I thought someone else would’ve went through and counted them because there were so many. Thank you.
"Literally", "none" of these "air quotes" needed to be "used" in this "video".
Drew trying to start a monopoly on "finger quotes"
When Discmania was a boutique style disc company, that was a winning model right there. I understand they were at the mercy of Innova’s supply, but that was indeed a great time!
It's really about selling discs. Simon realized that after signing with MVP. He said, "my job is to sell discs"
HOD, marketing isn't working..
Eagle sold how many "Envy's" with a cool stamp?
Stock disc, new stamp, star player equals sales.
Seems like there is a lot of missed opportunity. Investors that don't understand the industry have destroyed many small companies .
It helps that simon and eagle have a personality too, unless some other companies biggest players.
Very deep analysis, Drew! I might use some of this in my class. The key point to make, though, is: the sport has a bright future. There was a peak, and after a peak you get a hangover. That happens all the time. The sport is still there, and it will survive and grow.
The "boom" of disc golf in the 2010's was directly correlated with the rise of jomez and the increase in quality and frequency of their productions. The "fall" of disc golf has been directly correlated with the takeover of major coverage by dgn. Just an observation.
And the Boom in 2020 with new players that most companies thought was going to last for a while longer when I knew it was more an excuse to get out during the lockdowns for some people who were not serious on playing disc golf with more then 6 discs duplicated and a bag. Sure, some started play during this time playing disc golf as a major hobby but it was mainly people coming back to disc golf after being away for a very long time.
The last and good problem is now there are so many small brands lead by Trash Panda that are making discs now on their own with older injection molding equipment that the sport seems watered down almost, some like Trash Panda or the other one from Washington or Oregon using recycled plastic or ones like Dooms Day Discs have made a name for themselves in this market, two of them with better for the environment discs and one Dooms Day Discs For unique discs nobody else is making right now but a bunch of the other small brands like Thought Space are just making the same as say X bigger brands.
@@caseysmith544 I believe they call that market saturation then brand dilution. There’s only so many discs that can be sold in a given time, and only so many brands that can benefit from their disc sales.
Agree 💯
Jomez still has next day coverage of all tour events and Worlds and Champions Cup. The only major’s that have delayed post produced coverage is European Open and USDGC. Neither are owned by the DGPT.
The first boom was the recession during 2008-2009. Jomez was kind of a byproduct of that, culminating with the rise of YT as a job.
The grass roots is disgolf. That's what Brodie brings to light about the PDGA not being as professional as they try to act. That's why the Southern National tour was started by Jim Orum back in the day. Disc golf will always be 90% weekend warriors in it for the local company.
Yeah I mean monopolizing something that’s so “small” hasn’t paid off for anyone.
When your entire economy is disc golfers, players leaving the sport, less recreational players, And 99% of the labor is volunteers, it's hard to see it as professional. I hate to pile on, because a lot of companies are hurting. But, I've said that disc golf management is THE problem. Even our grassroots is not really organized.
Did the math for you, Drew. You're so right. On a $1,000,000 contract, if you sell disks for $20 and your cost is $5 to make a disk, all costs, labor materials, etc. You have to sell 66,666.66 disks to break even on that investment. Is that a sign?
@@tomwinandlol, I don't think so, just use $21 or $6 to make a disc
Disc golf has been a underground sport for 50 years. It's the people that are the problem. It's not a main stream sport. They don't make millions. In fact I watched a video from dgpt and they were saying they don't ever break even. It's like professional Surfing, Skate Boarding, man bike racing. Need to just except it for what it is and just joy that there is even disc golf to watch.
“Look who laughing now (after letting pros go to save money on not giving pros big money)” - INNOVA
MVP looks like there doing super well to be honest.
@@disc.seekerI hurd they have a hug overstock. Which is not good, they need to sale those disc to get there money back. Tight times for everyone.
Drew, please read the questions rather than screenshot and make us read. This type of video is great to *listen* to while doing other things around the house. Super frustrating to stop what I'm doing, pause, and read the screen so I know what you're talking about. That's going to end up with a lot of people not finishing the video. I think it's too your own interest to read the questions and keep us *listeners* all the way through. Of course it's different for your videos where watching is necessary, but this shouldn't be one of those videos.
This boosts the interaction users have with your video in the analytics. People will still listen, but interact more.
It's RUclips. Not a podcast. You'll live.
Or…finish what you’re doing (because if you’re doing something else you probably aren’t really listening anyways), sit down and watch the video with your full attention. As someone stated above it’s RUclips, not a Spotify podcast.
Hit pause and read it yourself.
Check the Game Dog! Done got big headed and grifters are amuck
DD's been such a fascinating company. They were on the forefront of putting good disc golf content on youtube and their disc showcases were an especially great source of information for new players. Then they never managed to build from that. After establishing themselves with some solid molds (verdict, felon, escape, trespass, justice etc.) it felt like they got desperate trying to create new hit molds but never really believed in what they did. Can't struggle with your base disc lineup for so many years without it reflecting on you as a manufacturer.
Years of bad strategy culminated in that Ricky gamble. Seems like it didn't pan out.
I appreciate you discussing this even though some may not be happy about it. Been a big fan of you since I got to know you at texas states (i drove the van. ) Keep being you man.
ROI for Kona and Rick wasn't only the fault of the players. When you're putting out old products with tired stamps, it doesn't help. At one time, Rick had over 6 different raiders with the same stamp or a very close variant. The thought process there was a fail. Similar to trying to sell 10,000 (no exaggeration) prototype Agents. It just doesn't work.
Drew can we get an air quotes stamp? We want it!
😂😂😂
@robertbickford2021 Yes! Or a shirt. It Always reminds me of the Legend Chris Farley doing air quotes. Never stop
I'm not surprised DD didn't do well. They market the General at 40 dollars or some chit
Thanks for explaining this Drew, there is a bunch that we dont know. Bringing in your opinion as a player and business owner is something we aren't getting much.
DD could've been super well off with Ricky's merch, for example, if they weren't choosing to charge upwards of $30+ for tour series discs and such. I'd have bought a CRAP TON of his felons and slammers if they weren't so individually overpriced.
$22 to $25 after tax is a much easier pill to swallow than $33 after tax to replace your favorite tour series disc.
I feel like innova is just gonna keep being the smartest company from a business perspective even though every year it sucks to see some great players leave. After awhile it always seems like that ended up being a smart move.
Calvin’s really smart to just stay where he is until he’s done with it all. Slow and steady. He does pretty dang good with Innova, Millenium, Squatch, and Flight Factory contracts and sales.
@TwoOneSe7en Same with Nate Sexton! I hope Paul comes back some day. Long live Innova!
@ I hope Ricky comes back. Rick still has that fire. I think he missing those Pigs too. Haha
Same thing happened in my industry (consumer telescopes) - we had a huge growth spike during the pandemic but it has come down considerably in the last two years (but still above pre-pandemic levels). Good thing we are leaders in our industry, and did not hire up radically or overspend a bunch of new money, as we knew that type of growth was not sustainable. Sounds like some of these newer disc golf companies were naive about what was actually going on during the pandemic growth spurt (aka "hope planning"), and now we will see some contraction. It's just normal business, really. But yeah, savvy owners can use that growth spurt to sell their company at an inflated price by convincing others that the spike is sustainable
Without the air quotes i wouldnt really know whats going on “thanks” drew gooberson
there are like 10people worth sponsoring, rest can pretty much be cut they really dont bring any value.
It's simply foolish to have assumed that the initial growth trajectory would remain at the same rate without proper infrastructure (well-designed courses, healthy state of local club operations, quality live-streaming tools and capabilities).
Until those issues are resolved, we cannot expect a corporate environment to have continuity across economic ebbs
this is exactly it.
quality breakdown, earned a sub.
The financial results for Swedish companies is public information.
The 2022 and 2023 financial results for HoD was a loss of about $7.5 Mil per year.
Lat64 did a $10 Mil profit in 2022 but did just break even in 2023. Their revenue was down from $37 Mil to $23 Mil.
It’s gonna be interesting to see how the results come in this year.
Just for a reference, if you had $1billion you could lose 100k a month and it would take 833 years to run out of money. Losing it daily would knock it down significantly, but you are still looking at a little over 27 years before you're broke. A billion is A LOT!
these guys prob aren't billionaires
It seems fairly simple. If a player feels they are worth x amount of dollars then prove it. Give them a base salary so they can make a living and increase the prize money. If a player isnt performing that well then he or she better start interacting with the public to sell their brand. I have gone to 3 pro tournaments and these players walk around talking to each other instead of the fans. It might not be a bad idea to send some of these young people to a sales class so they can get the big picture. As a person in sales if i dont perform i dont get paid. Period.
Honestly I think a lot of people stopped buying discs because of the constant “drops”. Also, we got tired of buying discs that didn’t fly like the previous mold. So we would wait to see what the reviews were and decide to hold off. That’s why the second hand market is thriving.
True. The disc and the merchandise are not enough to sustain the sport.
still sooooo salty at 14:10 lol love it
Do you know who he talking about saying DD gave this guy who hasn’t won A-tier in 2 years a signature disc for a “song of the summer”?
I believe he's talking about Silas Schultz. Who made the disc golf diss track of the decade (light-heartedly making fun of Drew). It was a great opportunity for Drew to make one of his own and start something fun. But he was offended and it was taken down.
Seems like someone still has some bitter bugs in his pants about it.
hilariously so
Great info! Love this type of content and getting a behind the scenes look into the business side of disc golf! Good luck this up coming season!
Interesting to think about how Go Throw’s new tour performs this year taking all this into consideration. If they lean into the grassroots nature of disc golf, they may end up creating a superior product for viewing to DGPT/DGN.
Thanks 🙏 for the insight Drew. A lot of speculation out there but very few willing to put their name on it. 💪
Maybe there is a reason Issac hasn't made an announcement. If HOD are struggling why would a person of Issac's caliber take that chance. Ezra made a smart move and moved to a company that doesn't look like they are hurting at all.
Great video. It's not click bait. I don't use any social media or reddit so getting the "common" knowledge is cool.
Buhr may be winning a lot of tournaments, but his marketability is poor at best. I'm willing to bet KT (sorry, KL now), is the #1 mover of plastic for all of HoD.
Great video. Appreciate the honesty.
Thank you for putting together what's going on--the facts of life!!
Drink a shot every time Drew does air quotes.
It shows a lack of understanding of the sophistication of the listener: it insults us.
That's why we don't like it. In fact, no one does.
i passed out after a few minutes
@@Chris.Daviesyou complain on every video I post lol. Maybe just stop watching?
@@DrewGibson I like the air quotes 😅
He's an angry elf.
Been playing consistently since 2009 and stopped keep in up with the disc golf scene around 2015. I don’t know any new discs, new brands. Never heard the term “HOD” (had to look it up). I throw the same molds I was throwing 10 years ago and most of it is hoarded winnings from AM days that I still have back ups of. I can’t be the only one not consistently buying any product.
The days of needing the newest bag or mold will fade with every player eventually.
I've been playing for longer and similarly have way more discs than I ever use. I still pick up a few discs a year, not because I need to, but mainly to help out the retailers and industry as a whole. Plus it's fun to have a new disc to learn and incorporate into your game now and then. But you yeah, no way I'm paying $30 for a disc.
What blows my mind are the people who scoop up a single run and attempt to inflate the resale price.
Have you seen the BuzzSaws?!
I buy flat top DX Rocs when I stumble on them, and maybe once or twice a year I'll try a new mold that looks novel like the Rollo. Beyond that, everything in my bag is from 2005 or earlier.
@@trev3971 when it works it works! im still using my ergo 2 bag too. quality
DGPT really screwed the pooch paywalling the organic growth of disc golf and cancelling out all the hard work of jomez and others that were doing the right strategy pre DGPT…imagine a regular live feed on RUclips with 15k viewers for every tournament …would be a different landscape with that marketing power center…DGPT they need a reckoning, boycott DGPT
I don’t think the long term strategy of Jomez was sustainable. Patreon support and young dudes on the road filming a tour they neither owned nor paid to broadcast.
I’m also not sure 15k live viewers is paying any bills long term.
I guess we’ll see if the Go Throw strategy, which I would imagine is closer to your view will succeed.
How do you profitably monetize free live streaming? It’s a tough nut to crack.
@@EMichaelBall It probably takes hundreds of thousands streams if not millions. Major advertisers don’t care about 100k views on a Jomez video.
Disc Golf is expense to film and broadcast. Multiple cameras over a vast swath of land. It takes a bunch of money, or people who want to do it for nothing.
10:02 One of the things that draws people into disc golf is affordability. You’re supposed to be able to go to a shop and buy a beginner set or some used discs for less than $30, and then go play a course for free. The more price increases happen, the less the sport will grow.
Not according to my 30+ years experience of selling discs.
The equipment is still cheap in 2025.
The cost of getting to and from a DGC can be a factor for people on low incomes, however.
And that is why when I design a course in a community, it is designed for the people of that community, and if other people like it, that's an added bonus.
Playing disc golf is still insanely cheap compared to the majority of other sports. Has to be one of the cheapest.
Preach!
@@Chris.Davies Right, my point is that if corporatism keeps leaking into other parts of disc golf, the affordability will go away.
@@penrose2942 Indeed, but the more disc golf moves to being “corporate” rather than “grass roots” the more unaffordable it’ll become.
I wonder how things would of been if Paul never got his 10 year deal. or least never came out with the details. i feel like a lot of the issues came out when that did. People started comparing themselves to Paul and that contract.
Yep. Also, imagine how well Paul would still be playing if he had stuck with Innova!
House of Discs has many great molds… but, without a cohesive approach it is hard to decide what to buy. Not everyone can throw a general, DD3, or raider amazingly but… they have discs like The Felon, Explorer, and the harp which are very useful for many players, but maybe don’t bag. A more cohesive image is necessary going forward.
Awesome cinema. Air quotes less than a minute in, love it!!
As you mentioned, MVP, Innova, and Discraft weathering the storm, I think they were able to because they didn't get all "wide eyed" with the covid dollars flowing in like the majority of the other brands seemed to. The brands that got super super excited about ALLLLL THIS MONEY flowing around ended up over promising things like contracts, selling out to a corporation, or just mismanaging things all around and are now the ones struggling the most. The ones who stayed calm so to speak, kept their wits about them, made smart and calculated moves, are doing the best and not really struggling or scrambling for anything.
Great video Drew, as always 😁.
Mvp got Simon Eagle.not being cautious
MVP gave Simon a million a year (allegedly) which isn't being cautious. They rode James Conrad's world championship and they did make smart moves but many people weren't buying the technology they were trying to market before that. If they gave that money to any other player I'm not so sure it would work out so well. People weren't really buying the technology they were trying to market. It was a bit of a meme company for a while.
I do think your logic applies to innova though. Discraft has been around so long and in other things besides disc golf. They do have Paul for a million a year too.
I never said they were being "cautious". Each of those companies made smart, long term decisions. MVP, yes they signed Simon to a million a year for 10 years contract, but they knew he knew how to move plastic and sell. His following on his socials is huge compared to others. They really thought that through beforehand. Bringing Eagle on next (albeit while he was still recovering) was essentially the same as Simon. While he doesn't do the kind of marketing that Simon does, their names together really help push things. Their legacy of being the "crush boys" is really unmatched by any other duo in the sport.
Yes, you're right that if anyone else had gone to MVP other than Simon, they wouldn't be as successful as they are, but they knew that, which is why they picked him.
Innova and Discraft have been around for so long and make things for Ultimate Frisbee as well as disc golf so they are able to get revenue from sales of other things, plus them being smart about handling the covid boom basically.
I have no proof to back this up, but it feels to me like HoD only cares about Latitude and Discmania. I’ll be interested to see where those two stand vs the rest of their brands in a few years.
The question I have is did HoD intentionally buy other brands to extract savings that make the investment back, even if it starves the company? A United States private equity company does this with newspapers.
Thanks Drew, Love the real opinions..
I think disc golf companies should stop investing millions on the athletes, make it a production based income model. Company should cover basic expenses like travel, lodge, food, pro tour card. And then a salary to allow them to support a family. The rest of the money should be linked to their production in the field
Agree to an extent; unfortunately tournament payouts cannot sustain more than the top ten elite players unlike most other professional sports
@ I get that, and that’s why I think the salaries need to sustain the player. Disc golfers don’t need to be millionaires IMO
Fantastic video Drew. Keep coming up with videos like this, your insight is very interesting. Explain the situation a bit more clearly for those who aren’t quite as in the know and you could be the TMZ of disc golf.
Keep up the great content
You can cut everyone from every team and I’d still buy discs. Hell. Might be cheaper plastic again. All these guys coming out with discs that just mark up the base price.
They have been getting pretty crazy about it. 😅
Great video Drew !
Great content and..
Finger quotes for The win !
"Grass roots" is another word for "hippy". Disc golf has been overtaken by nerds who ignore the true hippy roots of the sport.
Great video Drew. Really liked the insight.
Definitely not bugged by that song 😂
Who/what is this house of kids a tier summer song situation he is referring to?
I love the DD General, lots of house of Discs products. I spend a bunch of money on the baskets, discs, and merch.
When a product becomes lucrative, rich people love to dip their greedy, little fingers in it. They want an easy payday & then F off when the bubble bursts. The fall is disc golf is greed.
So this means Isaac to Gateway ? Bet MVP/Axiom has recouped the Simon nut already, see 'em on courses like crazy. Not a real active Drew watcher, but I seem to be here often of late ! Keep it up, love this kind of stuff.
Great video Drew, great take on the issue. Keep it up.
Speaking as a "Covid" player, it's been a fun 4 years. I think the sport is going through growing pains as many disc golf companies are disrupting the market, the supply of discs on the market outweighs the demand, and some companies will just die off. Smaller companies with poor cash flow will die quickly, and bigger companies will die a slower death. There aren't many sports out there with 30 different brands and manufacturers. There aren't any sports with 6 different brand of hoops, holes, uprights, or bases. Over time, these things will work itself out
Good point.
Bro pulled out the marketing buzzwords “disrupting the market” 😂
Quote marks wrapped around COVID are worse than air quotes.
And no, I won't put quotes around the words air quotes!
First of all, I like that some of you guys are speaking up about this stuff. As a business owner myself, I can tell you that disc golf in general made a huge mistake by over paying players instead of pushing the sport. Unfortunately disc golf has zero major sponsors, so players really cant be paid much. The average American household income is around 60k, so 99% of this country is making a living off that 60k. I would think that 60k plus whatever you earn in tournaments and merch sales would be a pretty good living for a 20 year old. If Nike or Adidas or something got invested, then the players could make more money. I literally think only Simon and Paul have the following to make big bucks. People change their entire bag for those guys. Nobody else has that cult style following. Without a major sponsor, these companies should have focused on getting the discs and merch into big box stores instead of over paying players. I dont even know any pro pickleball players, but Walmart and Target are loaded with pickleball stuff!! Overall, the covid boom was mostly because people had extra cash and time. The result of that over spending by our government is an economic downfall, and disc golf isnt that important for most players. My two cents anyways. Love the content, dont mind the airquotes either!! LOL
Is this where we order the new sockibomb general?
Thanks Drew. Have you seen Hugh Frisbin around? Miss that guy
Bankruptcy could help void contracts. Might be the best way financially but not for keeping players happy.
Wait, a venture capital firm taking over a disc golf company wasn’t a good thing???? Huh…
I’ll play devils advocate but a lot of disc golfers are cheap and refuse to spend money on things like pay to pay courses or live coverage because it’s not top level quality yet.
There are too many companies offering a similar product to support the current number of touring pros!
with these sit and talk videos you should keep the pictures partially on screen for a little longer, please and thank you!
The economy as a whole is losing , wages are not increasing for the customers , in turn we can't spend it if we don't have
DG is, was, and always will be very niche, and VERY grasroots. Look at what the point of a VC investment group is. Dont be surprised if all HoD companies are stripped and start molding car parts for mass-produced shitboxes. VC groups are 100% about money. Dollars over discs is 100% where HoD is going in the future.
One thing about trilogy discs family is that their web stores have a shitty user experience. Going to the lat64 website and trying to figure out what molds they have and what plastics they have in stock is terrible. The DD website is just as clunky to navigate. That makes a terrible buying experience. I buy 70% of my new discs online and the rest i get from local shops and TDs. But my online disc purchases are like 90% from Innova, Infinite, or OTB websites because they are easy to navigate, have rewards programs, have decent prices and clearly communicate what discs are in stock.
No Drew, we have not come back to the gradual growth slope, according to this guys AMA. He says DD are still below pre covid sales. Ouch.
Would like to know what happened to Westside discs, they are now only available through their new site, only for US and they change their logo stamp
Only 2 or 3 players are deserving of getting paid big money from sponsorship. All other sponsorship costs are ruining the game. That cash could fund better events.
HOD is europe based the first to go would be the outside company. Plus the usa has a lot more loose regulations easy choice for HOD.
imagine telling Drew Gibson a secret
Wish they didn't tell me....
Leaky Leakersons!
Why can't I see the comments?? Dang
@@aaronmayhew2.0you must rub Korney the wrong way
Market will balance itself out just like all other business and the big names will last and rest will fall off. Happens in every industry
will be interesting to see how DD(and westside) sales go in this upcoming year, now that you cant buy DD from the latitude site, lat64 has the best worldwide shipping deal, i bought from DD in the USA and the shipping was triple to get them to New Zealand, so i just buy them from lat64 with other trilogy discs, but now ya cant, i believe that will hurt them(obviously not just me buying them lol), as surely they were being paid dividends for those discs sold on that site, and now i wont be buying them as the shipping almost doubles the price of each disc
You can only saturate a market so much with a product, and only so many companies can profit from through a market correction when everyone has their discs already. Most people don’t buy more discs than they need and don’t have “collections” they have their bag and maybe a couple extras.
Too many old heads in disc golf are failing to do enough outreach and grow the sport. Pickleball has managed to solve this while being an objectively less skilled (and frankly less entertaining sport) and skyrocket itself into the mainstream.
What does an average disc golfer make per year(salary)? No disc sales included. Thanks
I think more than any sport I've ever been associated with, disc golfers care more about how the product performs than who's pushing it. Make a good product, and people will buy it, star sponsor or not. One of the main reasons I throw Innova plastic is because I know how it's going to fly, and I know the company is going to be around in 10 or 20 years so I can get more. Spending a bunch of money on star sponsors isn't real smart IMHO.
I appreciate your take Drew.
Good video but air quotes look so goofy, specially when it is constantly done in a video.
Disc golf marketing today is the exact same scenario as the sports card boom of the 90's. Over hype, over production, too many companies. Eventually there's just not enough money in the sport to divy up. The bottom line is: who really needs 50+ discs? That's what the sport was banking on, and that 'boom' is just not sustainable in the long run. After all, it's just cheap colored plastic; just like the sports card market was founded on cheap colored cardboard. Neither one has a real lasting value. Plastic only lasts 20 years without serious degradation. Today there are way too many companies, too much product, too many unnecesary new molds, and not enough people to buy all the variations. Add to that mix sponsorship, and it becomes a failed business model.
The cost of discs is outrageous especially since it’s not Covid times anymore. The dgpt doesn’t run things well especially the media side of things. Kona and Ricky aren’t worth what they are paid let’s just be real. Kona has decent social media presence but no the skill to play on the pro level anymore. Ricky plays well but isn’t winning like he used and moving plastic the way they would like because let’s be honest those discs aren’t great and definitely not at the prices they want us to pay.
I just think they are a bad company, they literally have Tattar, Ricky, and Matty O. How can you not have positive ROI with these players ?
because you need to sell a LOT of discs to cover their sponsorship salaries. more discs then the industry sells in any given year. most people dont buy a disc solely based on who that company sponsors.
@stevekuzenski1651 i disagree mvp was a nobody company years ago, and now there is a pixel in everyone's bag
@clawshooter5867 mvp is older than you think, brought with them a different type of disc to separate themselves from the others, and has developed a good fanbase with solid distribution. players can help to an extent but a good business plan is more important. ive played 100+ tournaments and 1800+ different courses - have never thrown any mvp disc; why? because i already own hundreds of discs - i dont need any more.
Player sponsorships have always been a bad ROI. That's why Innova has historically been very frugal with it. They could sponsor half the field like Discraft is trying to do and 90% of players would take pay cuts to throw Destroyers and Firebirds but Innova keeps their purse strings closed for a reason. Only massive names like McBeth (THE winner) and Lizotte (likable social media star) really do much for ROI. Kristin, Matty O, Antilla, etc probably break even at best honestly.
Matty O is my favorite player. I don't like him enough to buy discs I don't want.
*Spoiler alert*... Sssoooo many air qoutes
Your “song of the summer” statement is kinda whack. Neither of y’all are that marketable. You had one good season and decided those tattoos were cool enough for your opinion to matter more than it does.
Ahhhh compare the careers bro. We play sport there is facts here. Making a song isn’t signature disc worthy unless the brand you’re playing for is grasping for straws.
Thanks for coming. I just make videos, it’s your choice to watch them. Same with all the others who watch them.
@ I’m saying your career isn’t crazy enough to be talking this way. You’re not Simon or Paul or Ricky. You have won like 2 events. Also, the brand jumped on an opportunity to make money, much like you’re doing with this video. It’s not grasping for straws, it’s just marketing.
@@josh_the_hoddeI’m making a video about disc golf. Not making music. Keep stretching bro. Why are you here if you’re this salty? 😂😂😂 you don’t have to watch!
@ I was here to be informed, then you took a personal shot that had nothing to do with why the company was struggling at all. I’m just calling you out on it. I thought it was whack and it also isn’t logical to the overall argument. You are also downplaying how big that song was for a week in the community. They make discs for tournament wins now, I think making a disc for a song that caught some clout makes sense by that thinking.
@@josh_the_hoddewhen clout is all you can offer the brand… Gotta capitalize I agree. Regardless. Have a good night man. I don’t wanna go back and forth.
I appreciate you watching my videos.
Marketing and advertising can help change a company.
I dont understand y they didnt get with kona and do a special disc run to help her with the cancer treatment and heath recovery hell they could be seen as amazing for both sides it could be a 60/40 kona split
If only they didn’t push/force those people out the door.
What’s a reasonable margin on discs? Because as great as Ricky is, I have a hard time imagining almost any player moves enough plastic to recoup a million a year. Maybe McBeth because of his legacy and Simon because of his social media presence and fan base. I mean even if a disc only cost $1 to make (which I’m sure it’s more) then that’s a ton of discs to recoup that marketing cost.
That said, I’m happy for any player who was able to cash in on the boom.
HOD is the worst. Theyve ground kastas well known image to a halt and turned it back into another corperate face. So frustrated with it
Disc golf is different than a lot of sports in that the main money comes from sponsorships not ticket sales and tournament wins. I am guessing the dynamics of this model are different.
There’s one big part of this that’s not being mentioned. DGN absolutely blows. Bland commentary, bad quality, and lackluster production.
Jomez and disc quality are what drove this sports growth. Jomez innovated and pushed the growth. I played disc golf around 2012-2013, but didn’t really start playing a lot and understanding the sport till 2018 when I saw a McBeth round on Jomez.
I firmly believe that if the DGPT put its money into Jomez that they would do a better job at producing high quality coverage.
On disc quality, there are so many manufacturers now that make quality discs and it has lead to some over saturation. HOD just has zero competitive advantage when they’re trying to charge as much as they do for discs that I can get from MVP, Discraft and Innova for less.
Is a Drive or Wraith really that much different than a Grace? Enough to justify a $5-$7 increase?
I said when these big contracts started to come out that they came out too early and they're gonna hurt diac Golf and everybody laughed at me
And there are rumors that Lat64 is going to sign Isaac Robinson... Yikes
I think it’s always going to be a grassroots/ hippie sport. They messed up trying to grow it faster than the demand. And a lot of people got sticky fingers wanting a piece of the pie.
Was this the news that would Flip the Dg world upside down you posted on X about? If so, meh
Anyone paying attention has seen this as the writing on the wall since mid 2023.
so HOD needs to sign jerm to a reasonable contract since hes proven to move plastic, but as someone making money off of jomez and dgpt, wouldnt need the giant contract that a ricky or kona got. or would this scenario not make sense?
Only Discraft could do that. They have Uli.
Drew,
Would you do an AMA over on /r/discgolf?
So the decision makers at HOD are just the former owners of all the companies that make up that brand?