Thank you once again so-so much for commissioning me for this project! Your idea to build a location based on the Swaddling Cloth was fantastic and really inspiring and I had lots of fun working on both the renders and the thumbnail! 🌟
I think Ranni's choice of words 'Among the Demigods' is very telling, from that I had the thought that The Gloam Eyed Queen was no Demigod, but perhaps a Tarnished like the player character
A year after release, when most people have moved onto other games, this guys is still pumping out hour and a half long lore videos of top quality. This man is a godsend to the souls community 😂
@@aaronclay4665 Im intrueged. I understand pessimism, not from an outsode perspective either, but alls signs ive seen point to the contrary. Got any eye openers? Or are you weighed doen by the anchor of truth? Jaded by knowledge, pained by experiance?
To offer a suggestion for the number seven; there are three apostles and three nobles in the game, and above them their queen, a total of seven bodies. It’s up to interpretation if the true apostles under the queen were numerous enough to be considered an army, since you’d have to skin… a lot of gods to clothe an army of them. I personally believe that the amount of them we see in the game, and the fact that they resurrect one another through manipulation of death, that they were an undying army of six lead by the GEQ.
There's four apostles, I think. One in the Windmill village, one in the Divine tower of Caelid, one in Farum Azula (the godskin duo), and finally one in the bottom of a dungeon (I vaguely remember it being the one with the huge bear in the cave, where you have to contend with a bunch of spirit summoning snails right before the boss room with the apostle). That makes 4 apostles, and 3 nobles, which would bring us to the holy number of 7 yet again.
@@brigandboy1425 the snail boss battle has you fight both an apostle and a noble, but they are both spirits being called forth by the spirit-caller snail to fight in its place. Defeating the snail does give you the godskin swaddling cloth, though, so maybe there's more to it than just mundane summoning
@@brigandboy1425 the spiritcaller snail bossfight actually can have you fight both an apostle and a noble if you avoid killing the snail and wait a bit after beating the first one. So if spirit summons count that would be 8. But i still personally think that the spiritcaller fight was just put in as a fun bossfight that is a much easier version of other godskin boss fights but they combined with the fact the snail drops the godskin cloth talisman could imply that either this noble and apostle died and were unable to be revived the way that the other godskins are or that their is something very peculiar and yet unexplained going on with the godskin creation process.
I just watched a vid from Crunchy that shouted out this channel, TA, LP, and a bunch of others for helping them really get a read on some things in the game. I really feel like this subset of the community, in particular, is super good about giving credit where it's due. And it makes me even happier to be around these parts.
This is one of the things I love about the SoulsBourne community, it’s so friendly and supportive of each other. I don’t even play the games but I love these videos because they’re so interesting and because everyone is so respectful and nice to each other and sadly that’s rare on the internet
Fantastic stuff, as always. You actually did a better job of explaining the Erdtree's first burning than we did! And how you synthesized it with GEQ lore is excellent. Kudos, my man.
You guys are absolutely right that the Erdtree was burned before. And we know exactly who did it. It was Godfrey, First Elden Lord. I noticed that nobody mentioned the spirit, northeast from the Erdtree Sanctuary Grace in Leyendell. The spirit only appears in the Ashen Capital Version. The spirit says: "He is returned. The Lord had returned at long last. Our very first lord, to brandish the Elden Ring once more…" We ourselves had to burn the Erdtree to brandish the Elden Ring. And Godfrey did that before us and is about to do it again.
Two legends right here. I love seeing this community work together to create such incredible content. And yeah, Geoff's account of the timeline and Erdtree's first burning is strong. I wasn't sold on the Erdtree being a stump wrapped in grace at first. After all, where are the falling leaves coming from? And if it's just a phantom, how is there that much ash once we burn it? But after seeing TA's video, I can't help but see the clues in my current playthrough. No one else can see it except us. And everyone else talks about its former glory. WHAT ABOUT THAT GIANT GLOWING TREE WE CAN ALL SEE? RIGHT?!? Nope. The GEQ burned it down the first time and has rendered it a symbol of faith which now defines the Golden Order. And only a Tarnished blessed by grace can see it. Us and Corwyn I believe? Great work you guys. This game is incredible.
The Gloam Eyed Queen was meant to destroy Marika's Age of Plenty, but Marika defeated her and thus became known as the "Eternal" as her age was meant to know no end.
Oh that makes a lot of sense actually. As to why there's not much evidence suggesting what her name was. Her purpose was to show Marika strength in keeping her order and explains how she obtained destined death
it seems she was successful at burning the erdtree itself but not slaying marika, and marika had maliketh burn her in return. Eventually the phantom erdtree was set up on the ruined stump of the old, and this deathless age of the erdtree we now know began.
I think the GEQ might've been a response to the decline of the Age of Plenty, with death being required to potentially renew things and start a new age. But she lost and the Golden Order was established as a solution instead.
Yep, it definitely feels like Marika was another god-ruler trying to extend her age, and unlike in DS, she succeeded... and paid the price for it. Which is also what I like about the Lord of Frenzy ending: you think you're breaking the wheel by burning the whole world, but your age will also be brought to a close by Melina - finally fulfilling her original role.
Your shout outs to Tarnished Archeologist and Last Protagonist are what make this part of the community so wholesome. All 3 of ya'll do amazing work, and I'm glad that all of you openly draw from one other to get the best read on the story and lore the game has to offer.
Could the Beast Eye given by Gurranq be the Gloam Eyed Queen’s right eye? The color fits and the lines on the side of the item are a mirror to those of the claw mark on Melina’s left eye, and if Maliketh was the one to defeat her then he could very well have removed it during the scuffle. Its ability to sense Death fits the theme as well.
@@WinterRoseYTthat scene was a revealing that she got her eye back or that her eye is now operating again meaning she is once again the gloom eyed queen
@@Trifacta1 yes I know that, but that doesn’t mean the beast eye is the gloam eye. It makes no sense for us to be given it and then for her to suddenly have it, and the gloam eye isn’t very beastial either
@@WinterRoseYTwhat if the eye we see in the FoF ending is a more spectral projection of the missing eye? It wouldn’t be too dissimilar to radagons fake arm. And If it isn’t Melina’s eye, what is it? Honestly this theory lines up off first impressions
To add to the Godslayer's Greatsword theory, I'm fairly confident that the sword's design (the helix shape, hollow blade, and shape of the hilt) was to physically carry the rune of death, and hence channel it's power. If you line the two up next to each other, the rune of death not only resembles the sword in shape, but fits inside the sword near perfectly.
Marika and the Gloam-Eyed Queens runes are inverts of each other, which is actually mimicked by Malenia (Rune of Decay) and the cut Miquella rune (Rune of Abundance) so is it not possible that The Gloam-Eyed Queen wasn't some random Emperyian, but instead was Marika's sister? It seems like its common among all of the children that there are opposites. If Marika's rune gives eternal life, then her sister having the power to kill anything would make sense.
Interesting thought but I would say that Radagon is her opposite because we see that he tries to restore the Elden Ring and Marika destroying it. Radagon in my opinion is also a lot more cautious because he disarmed the royal family of Caria and the Academy of Raya Lucaria by manipulating Rennala. He also ensured a back up plan through the cuckoo. The only times we hear about Marika is when she wages war against other factions like the giants.
I just find it insane that Maliketh was able to defeat her WITHOUT Destined Death in his possession. Even with the ability to utterly extinguish life in her hands, she still couldn't stop this absolute freight train of a creature. It makes you wonder how much stronger must he have been before plunging Destined Death into his own flesh.
His sword was imbued with Destined Death though. He wielded it openly and brashly if I remember from his sword's description. The Malekith we fight is basically the one who defeated the GEQ. That's why he says "Death, become my blade ONCE MORE" in the transition. His punishment by Marika for allowing Ranni to steal a fragment of Death (possibly broken off of his sword?) was to then have it hidden in his flesh instead. He's no longer allowed to carry it openly. But all of this is messing with my understanding of the timeline a bit. We know the Golden Order was established when the Rune of Death was removed from the Elden Ring. So, when did that happen? I thought it was a response to the Godskin apostasy and the GEQ's defeat. So, he harnesses the power of the rune of death, defeats the GEQ, and then is given the rune fully when Marika removed it from the Ring, thereby establishing the Golden Order? But then much later, Ranni steals a fragment of it from him, enacts the night of black knives, and then Malekith is punished by having the rune embedded in his flesh? We are told that Marika betrays Malekith though. How? With the Shattering maybe? Since the Golden Order was established at Malekith's punishment, shattering the Elden Ring sort of flies in the face of what Malekith is having to endure now? Idk. I guess that makes sense as I type it out. Sorry for the word dump in your post lol.
@@TSpoon823 That's not quiet true, incorporating death directly into his body ravaged his body. He is raked by an unending hunger, and judging from the way he moves and talks as Gurranq it's likely he's lost a good deal of his mental and physical faculties. Housing Death within yourself seems to sap vitality as part of it's fundamental nature; Ranni's puppet body needs long periods of rest to function, Godwyn is eternally rotting, and Rogier's contact with Godwyn's corpse led to him rotting and falling into a sleep he would never wake up from. It's likely that living beings are fundamentally incompatible with Death; put simply having Death inside you when you're Alive means you're in the process of Dying. Thus, it's pretty likely Maliketh has been diminished in some capacity by housing Destined Death within himself, it's not supposed to be inside of living beings. It's part of what makes him tragic, doing his duty in this capacity means he is a perpetual state of dying. I don't think unleashing Destined Death into his blade undoes the damage that he's accrued over the course of (at least) a millennia. As I mentioned earlier, Ranni's current body is artificial and doesn't even have her half of the Cursemark of Death in it, but she's still has to go into periods of deep sleep intermittently. It seems pretty reasonable to me that even if he's not housing the entirety of death within his body, Maliketh still feels the consequences of it. Also, Maliketh himself decided to bind what remained of destined death to himself in order to better protect it. Marika never explicitly punished him for it, he decided to do it himself out of a sense of duty for his failure. Given that it's quiet possible Marika intentionally enabled Ranni to get her hands on Death, it's likely that's the betrayal that the lore points to. Maliketh is a shadow to Marika in the same way Blaidd is to Ranni; while he is infinitely loyal, he essentially comes installed with a switch implanted by the Two Fingers to have him Kill Her if she steps out of line. Given that we know Marika is traitorous to the Greater Will, it's likely she could not directly ask Maliketh for Death without exposing her schemes and risking him potentially being forced to kill her by the Two Fingers. With this in mind, I believe she set him up Maliketh to fail in protecting it by sending the Black Knives to obtain it on her behalf, and provide it to Ranni as an alibi when it was discovered to be missing. I suspect obtaining Destined Death was her plan "A" in killing the Elden Beast with Hewg's Godslaying Weapon being plan "B". Unfortunately, Death split into the 2 cursemarks that inhabited Ranni('s Original) body and Godwyn's Corpse, leading it to not be usable for her, ending that plan before the Shattering even took place. This leaves Maliketh (and the Two Fingers) completely unaware of Destined Death being taken as part of Marika's designs, saving her from having Maliketh being forced to turn on her, but also in a state of despair over his failure. Hence he "punished" himself on her behalf for his "failure". It's really sad, because he's permanently locked out of the loop despite probably being one of the characters closest to Marika. It show's how deep her scheming and ambitions went that she would essentially throw away someone so powerful who literally only lived to serve her; someone who would sentence himself to eternally dying for someone who has been running from death herself most of her rule.
@@TSpoon823 You know, I never realized playing the game, but it *is* ambiguous in terms of what happened after the Rune of Death was removed from the Elden Ring. I assumed after it was plucked out, it was discarded and somehow found by the Gloam Eyed Queen. We know it was sealed within Maliketh's Black Blade, but it's unclear if that happened immediately. Marika's only use for Maliketh was to hold it, after all. But then it's also stated that the Black Flames used by Godskins were at one time imbued with Destined Death, and their life-sapping ability is just a paltry remnant of its true power. How could they have had access to it if Maliketh had already had the whole Rune? Before then it would have been incorporated into Marika herself as part of the Elden Ring. I'm thinking there had to have been some wacky shenanigans where the GEQ had the rune, did the "guess I'll die then" meme to the entirety of Marika's family and had to be put down.
Well, before being turned mad by the fingers, Blaidd is immortal (as a shadow), it could be that Maliketh was also immune to destined death and strong enough to just destroy the entire army, not sure how I feel about the in-game mechanic, since it affects him like anyone else, but doesn't ever allow us to truly kill something other than the tree. To this day we can kill Maliketh and have Caelid Gurranq alive and viceversa, thought I heard some associate this to Farum Azula's whole timestorm thing The thing is, Maliketh is still serving Marika and she's still a God, just imprisoned, but under control.
@@ungratefulingrate1268 I never thought about him being immune to Destined Death, but that makes sense considering Blaidd can return from death before going feral. It's also kind of interesting that Marika literally destroying the Elden Ring didn't activate Maliketh's programming and render him insane. What exactly did her Two Fingers consider betrayal if not that?
I always assumed that Destined Death was the Great Rune of The Gloam Eyed Queen, and Maliketh received it after defeating her. Similar to how the tarnished is able to take and use the great runes in the game.
If that's the case it makes his victory against her and the godskin all the more impressive. Cause he didn't fight them on an even playing field but beat them when at a disadvantage.
@@stevennuic3020 in possession of demi-gods yes, but runes seems to be the core of the orders . Shattering is just a way to give mostly her childs a chance to take her place if worthy
@@gotama7239 that's your theory? Because we dont know what the Intention of marika Was, when she shattered the elden Ring. It's up to debatte. I dont agree With your theory. Or do you have a source for your claim?
Now that we know Messmer exists I think this is the answer to who first burned the Erdtree and I suspect why Melina is burned. Only she could burn the tree properly "special kindeling" what if Messmer used Melina's body to burn the Erdtree first way back and that is why she is burned and bodiless in the in-game events.
That makes me wonder if maybe the scadutree was the first iteration of the erdtree before messmer burnt it and that's part of why Marika abandoned him in the shadow realm to fight her revenge war till his death
1:36:23 interesting how Miquella's Needle sets the stage for the perfect Gloam-Eyed Queen ending. With the Forge activated and the Frenzied Flame subdued, she can reclaim Destined Death, burn down the Erdtree and slay Marika to become the new queen. Excellent video SmoughTown.
@@ElMayo31 But you could have had a GEQ as a new final boss for undergoing the Miquella's Needle quest to completion! Melina awakens as the GEQ, slays Radagon with Destined Death, and then YOU have to fight HER to become Elden Lord! Missed opportunity.
@@monsieurdorgat6864 Since this is the GEQ ending, we would be fighting Marika herself as secret boss. After defeating Maliketh with Melina and awakening her powers, there could even be an additional step of her questline where we retrieve the Godslayer Greatsword from the Divine Tower so she can restore it with the true power of Destined Death, upgrading it to red and black flames and giving us some lore on the God Hunt. It is indeed a missed opportunity, but it makes sense they'd wait until the DLC to explore this questline since they clearly wanted to build up the mystery around Melina and the GEQ.
A good thing to notice in the Melina Gloam Eyed Queen theory is that she had a natural enemy. Not only a rivalry between the golden order and hers, but also the one force of nature she prevents the tarnished from interacting with. Melina is completely opposed to the 3 fingers, meaning that the blackflame and the frenzied flame are not only incompatible, but also enemies forces that have been clashing since the age of the first elden lord, Godfrey. We know that the existence of frenzy flame dates back to the origin of life. But the fact that it was feared and hated by a candidate of the gloam eyed queen's identity and Marika herself.
I also would like to mention that even if Melina is not the Gloam Eyed Queen, I refuse to believe she was turned to a sword, why? Because one of the tarnished that the Volcano Manor hunts, who is located in Leyndell, owns that same sword, and in his armor description it's said he wished to take an empyrean shadow role, much similar to Blaidd. Why would a shadow use the corpse turned sword of the empyrean he is trying to serve? Of course it could be a very distorted and tragic background lore if that was the case, but I find it very unlikely.
@@Mikael_Ore how do we know he wants to serve the Gloam Eyed Queen, specifically? He might just want to serve any two fingers that are aligned with the Golden Order. Saying that he serves the Gloam Eyed Queen because of his sword is like saying Maliketh served the Gloam Eyed Queen because of his blade being that of Destined Death, a weapon that she utilized against the Demigods. It could be that he just wants to be like Maliketh in that he's using a weapon that has death empowering it, while also serving whoever it is that will become Elden Lord. It's worth noting that you find him trying to fight people who serve the Volcano Manor, an organization dedicated to destroying the current ruling order. You'd think he'd join up with the Volcano Manor if that were the case, especially because we see a Godskin noble and Blackflame Monks in the Manor. The fact that he fights against this group of people tells me that he isn't trying to serve the Gloam Eyed Queen
Take into consideration as well that many fire monks left their flame for the black flame seems to show they are all incompatible with each other, or all linked to possible new ages.
An element that I noticed watching this video: Melina's eye shines with the light of grace. In the Frenzied Flame ending cutscene, where the Erdtree is destroyed, her already-open eye is a dim, grey color - unlike the golden shine it has previously. I'm unsure if this has gone un-noticed, or was simply not stated for other reasons, but it's neat.
I think shes connect ed to the tree. Thats why she only shows up when you sit by the grace. And she can be summoned to fight only when we set foot almost next to the tree itself.
Coming back to this video I noticed, the sword designs are also inverted. While the gloam eyed queen’s gets progressively more unwoven, the relic sword becomes more compact. It reminds me of chaos and order, death and life.
I’ve been a recent viewer of your channel, maybe for a month or so now, from someone who’s an editor and recorder, I know first hand it’s not easy to produce hour long videos, that require extensive research, then sit down, and record then edit it, I’d just like to thank you for your hard work and dedication to pushing out such amazing content, keep up the hard work brother! Peace ✌️
You humble me my friend. I really appreciate the generosity and kind words - the hard work is all worth it because of the kind support I get. Thank you so much
There is this thing called "achlys" that is the mist which fogs/blinds the eyes of a person in death. And it's the name of a Greek goddess associated with death-mist, misery and sadness. Also in German "götterdämmerung" means "Twilight of the Gods" which is synonymous to an event in Norse Mythology called Ragnarok where multiple gods are fated to die. And I feel like these where the inspiration for the Gloam-Eyed Queen's character to a large extend.
Huh, the fact that Destined Death is referred to as a “forbidden shadow” over the golden order makes me wonder if we’ll be learning more about the gloam-eyed queen in the upcoming Shadow of the Erdtree dlc.
@@Empireo_sebastianthats my theory too. Back in time to pre burned tree. We meet torrent which would explain why hes so fond of us in the beginning of the game. Us slaying the queen at her peak.
This one blew me away with how well-done it was. The findings, insight, and occasional humor made the runtime feel like a fraction of what it actually was, and it's crazy how much more can be added to these discussions even after a year of covering the story. This is incredible work, and I appreciate the shout-out immensely 🙏
I've always been a contrarian on Melina being the GEQ (mostly because I was unsure of the thematic relevance or how to square the circle of her being both the GEQ and Marika's daughter), but you might have finally convinced me. Beautifully done video, as always
I'm torn between two theories, a) the one mentioned in the video that the godskin is attracted to the death cursemark on Ranni's original body, and b) that this is the godskin that led the hit squad on Ranni's followers since Iji is burned by black flame and we find no other godskin in direct relation to Ranni's questline like that.
I love that you reference and acknowledge other creators and videos that helped shape your understanding. Really makes it feel like Souls Lore is a collaborative effort. Not to mention the artists you commission for each video. Really good stuff.
Geoff, you continue to knock it out of the park. I have massive respect for your videos that reassess your own misconceptions and build on other's work. You're actually very inspirational, and I thank you for that.
Beautiful take on the gloam eyed queen!! I've never commented on a RUclips video before so you have to realize how amazing your video is! Gloam eyed queen has always been the character I've been interested in the most and you did it perfectly. Thank you for your beautiful content!!!!
technically, ranni only states that she, miquella, and malenia were the only _demigods_ who were Empyreans, but we have no reason to believe that there weren't non-demigod Empyreans at that time
They're Empyreans chosen by the Two Fingers. It's not too ridiculous to imagine other Outer Gods pick their own Empyreans to act as their worldly vessels.
@Freedom of Speech Enjoyer would it be crazy to consider the Elden beast a form marika took to challenge us. Base of most of the agreed upon lore I find it very hard to believe that the greater will would challenge especially if we mean to continue on serving the greater will.
I know that this is just coincidence, but maliketh is the black blade. Ranni's shadow is named blaidd (i know it's pronounced differently) and malenia is known as miquella's blade. She is highly devoted to protecting him, so perhaps it could make sense that she volunteered to be his shadow.
@@avakinzerochill It doesn't work like that tho. All Empyearens are given a shadow by the greater will do either something happened to there Shadows or maybe which would be funny due to there afflictions the greater will didn't recognize them as true Empyearens
It would be interesting if Eiglay was the Gloam Eyed Queens shadow bound beast. It could explain why some of the godskins have serpentine like features, similar to the current order where Marika's and Ranni's beast is more canine, and the bloodhound knights following in the same order.
I love the idea that the GEQ was in fact Marika's daughter. I get the impression that the Godskin rebellion was a real breaking moment for Marika's faith in the Greater Will. Knowing that your god essentially ordered your own daughter to kill her you would be an INCREDIBLY traumatic event, and would help explain not only Marika's rebellion but also her callous attitude towards her later children. Much easier to chuck your kids into a sewer forever if you know they might be given a divine mission to overthrow you! I feel like the more we learn about this game the more nuanced Marika becomes as a character. Truly a larger-than-life tragic figure, who's done horrible things to crusade for her age and ensure her reign, but is ultimately so broken down by tragedy that she chooses to shatter it all and let the pieces fall where they may. Maybe all she really wanted was her own destined death.
Maybe Melina was conceived after Marika was imprisoned, which is why her womb was staked with destined death later. Then again I have no idea who staked her, apart from Maliketh, which could make sense (maybe his guilt doesn't only include failing to protect the rune of death). One think seems clear, almost everyone is a relative to someone else. It was written by JRR after all, and Miyazaki also uses the similar historical model of nobility, even in opposition to one another being related by blood. Most likely none of the theories are true as of yet since I think the connection isn't finalized by the writers, but they laid out the base to continue the story in whichever way they think best for the future. That's why nothing can truly be determined, and still you can make so many theories that are well supported by the game.
54:15 I don't believe Melina kept her identity secret. The most compelling argument for me about Melina being the Gloam Eyed Queen (or at least a personality / spirit ash / fragment of her) is something that theorists take for granted but often don't voice: and it is the visual narrative for her "I'll give you destined death" line. For this to happen you need to become the frenzied lord BEFORE she sacrifices herself to the Flame of Ruin or else this cutscene doesn't play (understandably) after the frenzied ending; this creates the next flow of events: - Over our conversations with Melina along the game we learn that she disappears like a Spirit (like Spirit Ashes, like Torrent, or like Carian Puppets), that her memories are muddy, that she has some kind of intrinsic knowledge of Death (indiscriminate), and that she's trying to find her purpose. - The tarnished becomes branded by the three fingers, giving him the "essence" to feed the Flame of Ruin in the Forge of Giants instead of using Melina's connection to fire (she's burned literally on her flesh and this cycles back to the flame of Death). - Doing it transports us to the resting place of the Rune of Death, this Death being what will allow the Tree to burn and "truly die" in a way. - After freeing the Rune of Death and achieving the Frenzied Flame ending, we see a changed Melina with both eyes open, her normal one milky, and the new one with a deep indigo hue and what's important, the bird talon-like tattoo over her eye gone and new Demeanor fueling her purpose. I think that freeing the Rune of Death without her dying in the process is what liberates her true nature too; the Demigods are embodiments of their domains, and when hers was freed so was her full self. I believe that After the Rune of Death was sealed by Maliketh so was the true nature of The Gloam Eyed Queen, leaving us with Melina.
I love the idea that the Gloam Eyed Queen is to represent the natural death that is necessary to keep life in check, and if Melina is indeed that person then it shows a tacit acceptance by Marika of her mistakes. I do think the game could have benefitted from making things a bit more explicit regarding the player being sent to Farum Azula, and that you're there to restore death to the world and that the tree cannot burn without you doing so. (Also I wonder why the player and enemies continue to respawn after you kill Maliketh and unshackle the Rune of Death).
About your last point, I believe unshackling the Rune of Death is not enough to change the laws of the world, as that depends on the current order estabilished through the Elden Ring. As Marika removed the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring to establish the current order, you would have to put it back in if you wanted things to truly die.
The rune still isn't implemented into the natural order at that point. You have it, you could, theoretically, implement it at any point, to any foe, but only upon mending the elden ring is it placed back into the rules of the world.
@@EpsilonXero If releasing the Rune of Death isn't enough to change the natural laws, then the Erdtree should not have been able to burn. Why is the Erdtree "lesser" in gravitas, than a simple wandering noble?
@@TheSuperRatt Okay, how about this, Ranni stole a fragment of it and was able to kill her body and Godwyn's soul using it. People didn't start dying around her. It didn't change the natural laws. Also, until it was stolen, Maliketh was holding it in an "unbound" state and still, the laws remained stable. HE was the only being able to permanently kill anything. When you get it, you're like pre-theft maliketh. The rune us needed to burn the erdtree, not it's implementation back into the natural order and, only then, when Melina comes in contact with it.
…I just realized something. Maliketh is the one who sealed Destined Death by sealing his sword inside his body. When he pulls out the sword, it’s through his HAND. The mark sealing Melina’s gloam eye closed isn’t a bird’s talon or anything like that. It’s MALIKETH’S CLAWED HAND, literally the thing binding the power of the Rune of Death and thus Melina’s eye.
I think the more obvious source of ash is the humongous dragon which attacked Leyndell and probably burned everything. As for Melina, she could also be the daughter of the Gloam Eyed Queen. It would make a bit more sense, it would also explain why she wants to burn the Erdtree with such conviction (purpose given to her by her mother, who opposed Marika).
@@yamnbam4346 I am pretty sure you are both right, as Melina is both the daughter of Marika and of the GEQ, as the GEQ was likely a face of Marika when the elden ring was still containing the death rune. In the alchimia principle, your main enemy is often yourself. Being a child of only one empyrean, she was naturally imperfect, born bodyless. Once the GEQ were defeated by Maliketh, i.e. when the death rune was sealed outside of the elden ring, Radagon took her place as the new strong personality. Melina was then half gold from Marika, and gloam from the GEQ.
@@spacehootle309 that theorie has been disproven indeed. Ranni and Melina are both spectral beings so I get the confusion, but Ranni inhabits a doll made by Seluvis, the reason she's only half incorporated is still a mystery, probably just a design choice. Also wouldn't make sense for them to be the same, but both be part of a different ending.
Blows my mind how deep the lore is vs how complicated it is to put together in game. I have never heard these theories and yet they all make perfect sense.
Mentioning of how godskin apostle and noble appear through an incantation sigil, especially during Godskin Duo fight, made me wonder if it could be only 1 of each of them out there, making appearances alike to Morgott with his Margit appearances
This is without a doubt one of your best videos yet, and to see how far our understanding on the subjects of the Godskins and everything else mentioned, even the concept of the eerdtree being an illusion really makes the journey we've taken through the past year more enjoyable! Thanks for your hard work Geoff!
Another potential connection between the Serpent and the Gloam Eyed Queen: The Man Serpents in Volcano Manor and the God Skin Apostles can strech out in the same way.
I find it fascinating how the Godskins and the GEQ have strong connections to both Mt. Gelmir and Farum Azula. The imagery of a Snake of Black Flames coiling the Ancient, corporeal, Erdtree is quite compelling to me. Also, obsidian is a volcanic glass and it would be a quite sophisticated twist to have the followers of a shedding snake to shed others of their skin and wear it. there is also the possibility of Eiglay being a descendant of the GEQ or a reincarnation, given the strong japanese symbolism of immortality in the skinshedding of Orochi... The Godskins being tied to Farum Azula by searching the Rune of Death embedded in Gurranq is interesting, however I always wondered: Why does the power of the Godskins be strongest in the Dragon Temple of Farum Azula (strongest, given that they only can resurrect or summon each other there) ? I find it more compelling to have them tied to Farum Azula in a more direct way: I surmise that the GEQ is the former god of Farum Azula, depicted by the Statue under the primal Elden Ring with her three Shadowbound Beasts in the heart of its palace. I see her as the god who was fled when disaster struck and Placidusax started to wait for her return - a vengeful god who plotted the restoration of her former glory (probably in the Spiritcaller Cave) by birthing an army of Godskins, thus being chosen by the Fingers once more as an Empyrean. Following in the Godskin Apostacy, the Killing of numerous Demigods and the burning of the Ancient Erdtree, the End of the Age of Plenty and Malikeths fight with the GEQ, killing her, taking her beastly Eye and imbuing his Black Sword with the Power of her Godslaying Flame (thus sealing the 'true' power of the Godsylaer Greatsword. GG). This might also explain why the Godslayer Greatsword is so similar to the Sacred Relic Sword - both belong to a former god of the Greater Will... I theorize that Marika kept a part of the GEQ in some way - maybe her soul. Because I don't suspect Melina to be the GEQ 100%. I tend to give her her own, distinct, Erdtree- and motherbound personality and think that she was created out of that remnant from the GEQ when Marika was already shackled inside the Erdtree after her shattering the ER. I see it as a last-ditched effort by Marika to free herself and to rebel against the Greater Will - Melina only was given the task to help or free her, but later she would ascertain that that would mean burning the Erdtree - at least she has some kind of experience with that. That would also tie in her connection to the Smoldering Butterflies and her name depicting a lineage from Marika and Radagon - both were one when Marika created her at the foot of the Erdtree. However, I doubt that Radagon had an active part in that - moreover once he took hold of their shared body again and saw what his other self did/birthed, he strung his own red hair to a spear and embedded it deep in his body, preventing the ringbound Marika to birth any more minions. This to me also explains why Melina, as she says it, "sends us on our way" after burning the Erdtree - to Farum Azula, a place so long forgotten that only legends of an ancient palace in the skies survived to this day. She can send us there because to a degree it once was her home and kingdom. She knows the way and that we must go there. And if we do not fulfill her accord of the Kindling Maiden and she is denied that path, another part of her dominates, her sealed eye opens and the GEQ takes hold of the Maiden. Not to avenge us, but to simply deliver, what we aleady earned: Destined Death. If you read this, thank you so much for taking the time ;)
That's a really interesting theory. But some thing don't really line up. For example: The GEQ is said to have been an Empyrean. If she wos the god of the Age of Dragons, then that wouldn't be the case. The Godskin nobles and apostles seem to be artificial creations. And the only coherent theory as to how they were created, is that the GEQ was one of the Numen/Nox, whom we know to be very good at creating artificial life. So it would make much more sense if the GEQ/Melina, was Marikas daughter before the Numen were banished underground and when she was selected as an Empyrean, she and the other Numen created the Fingerslayer Blade to kill Melinas two fingers. And after they were banished underground, they created the Godslayer Greatsword and the Godskin Apostles the end Marikas age. The great Serpent has no links with Farzm Azula as far as we know. And the only connection it has to the Godskins is that they disolay some snake-like features. Maybe the Seroent was involved in some other event prior to the Godskin Apostasy and the Nox simply built in sime snake-like traits into the Godskins when they created them. I don't know. I have no idea what ti make of the serpent honestly. And i have never seen any good theories about it.
I just had a crazy idea about the Serpent. What if the Serpent was the God of the Age of Dragons. Think about it. Snakes are said to be wingless dragons. Perhaps it even was a dragon at some point but devilved into a serpent over time. It might have had a human form like other dragons, which would explain the statue of the woman surrounded by wolves in Malikeths bossroom. If it gave the beasts their intelligence, then that would explain why the statue has her surrounded by a bunch of beasts. And when the Greater Will abandoned the dragons to create another order with Marika at the top, the serpent felt so betrayed that it ran away and hid in Mt.Gelmir. Now it wants to destroy the whole world to spite the Greater Will for abandoning it. It wants to devour all of creation. That's the seroents way to retaliate against the Greater Will. And to achieve this it helped the GEQ in her gial to destroy the gods, which failed of course, but now that most of the demigods are dead because of the shattering anyway, it influenced Rykard to do what he did as well.
@allfatherlloyd1941 Thank you for the input and your willingness to discuss :) Let me answer to your points in order and apply my perspective: 1. I find it completely plausible to be an Empyrean who becomes a god, lose that status whilst another god reigns (given that the title of god seems to go hand in hand with the title of ruler and queen, more than it implies a concrete, deific status, like the Outer Gods or The Greater Will - and The Elden Beast - seem to have) and then while striving to become a god once again get granted the title of Empyrean again. I find it a bit more likely that the GEQ was Queen Marikas rival when they both were Empyreans, also given that they seem to represent the two opposing sides of life and death. Adressing a former god as being an Empyrean once, seems unintuitive, although it would be technically correct (the best kind of correct, gnarh!). However, maybe a fallen god might be one of your best candidates for the next reign while Queen Marika yet covers that title - so why shouldn't The Greater Will choose a person who once ruled with an Elden Lord (Placidusax) as an Empyrean again? If true, I would find that story to be a very interesting and compelling one - a being chosen as Empyrean, becoming god over Farum Azula, being fled from it and losing its deific status and secretly planning to get revenge, birthing an army of artificial lifeforms, once again being granted the chance to become a god and be reinstated - thus being an Empyrean once again (although ultimately failing and being slain by a big, black doggo, sadge). And this reinstitution of a formerly ruling god (or pantheon for that matter) after a period of strife and rule by another deity is not uncommon in historic cultures all over the world - like the brief period of Aton-Worship in ancient egypt, or the conflict of 'Asen' and 'Vanen' in germanic religion. So, I think it totally can be the case to be an Emyprean while having been a former god of Farum Azula. If anything, this especially qualifies you as a proper prospect for the next rule as god ;) 2. The Numen and Nox have interesting, possible ties to the Godskin Apostacy - or any apostacy for that matter. And I agree that they certainly were experts in creating artificial life, given the Albinaurics and the Silver Tears plus all their variants. However, there is much more artificial life in the Lands between and I would find it highly unrealistic to throw all of them in the hands of the Nox. There are the Claymen of the ancient palaces, which seem to stem from a civilisation older than the arrival of the Numen; the Imps, Watchdogs and Golems; the Living Jars; Stone Cluster Caterpillars; maybe the Abductor Virgins, but then again, probably them are mere constructs, much like the Heroes Grave's Sentinels; the Crystalians; Schools of Graven Mages; even the Onyx and Alabaster Lords and other alien lifeforms. Melina herself could qualify as an artificial lifeform, possibly made by Queen Marika. Also, there are a lot of fringe cases, where the artificiality of their life/existence can at least be questioned - especially the Spirit-Caller Snails, which have an odd connection to the Godskins (they summon Godskins in the Spirit-Caller Cave which is where I surmise the QED to have started her plan to create the Godskins and plot her Apostacy). I like the story of the GEQ being a daughter of Marika which turned to the Nox/Numen Marikas cult itself sprang out of - a child of death from the goddess of life, to later challenge her mother over her reign (it's not a phase mom, it's who I really am!). But I can't say that I would claim it to make more sense than the GEQ being proficient in creating/birthing artificial life out of the residual power/knowledge from her rescinded goodhood. Both stories give the GEQ the means and the motive to form an army of Godslayers and go against the rule of the Erdtree - thus qualifying herself as an Empyrean - but the pure fact that the Godskins are supposed artificial lifeforms is not evident enough for me to tie her strictly to the Nox and Numen. 3. I really liked Tarnished Archaeologists video about the Serpent (Eiglay and maybe her progenitor?) ruclips.net/video/D0AQzqx3Epw/видео.html - and I based a lot of my thinking on his theory about the theme of Paganism, adversity to the motif of the snake on traitorous gladiators, etc. and the supposed first burning of the Erdtree. Which is why I find it so plausible to tie the Snake with the GEQ (that went so far as that I once thought about the GEQ herself to have been a snake, birthing humanoid creatures, like an inverse to Eiglay and the Serpent Men - but I really had to stop myself there^^) - to bring the symbology of the snake strangling the Erdtree and the burning of the Erdtree together - the ashheaps in Leyndell, the Erdtree becoming more an object of faith and throwing out seeds for the Minor Erdtrees (not the Illusory Seeds later at the Shattering), which was believed to never be possible - in this image of the Gloam Eyed Queen wrapping the Erdtree in black flames, burning with it and being felled by Maliketh, earning his Black Blade through that means (the Black Blade incantation has the old physical Erdtree of Abundance as background, incinuating it was created before the burning of it - maybe just moments before that). All circumstantial evidence, I know - I liked to tie that to Melina being burned and bodyless and knowing how to burn the Erdtree - a part of her had done that before - and knowing the way to Farum Azula - because she once ruled there. The Godskins have more connections to Eiglay or the Serpent of Volcano Manor than just their tails. A Godskin Noble even went there and protects the shed snakeskin on the Altar there. And he probably found ample opportunity to flay more skins in the dungeons of the Manor. This Noble not only protects the leftover skin of a god, but also the Serpent's Amniom - a birthing device for snake'esque, humanoid beings like Raya and the other Snake-Men (now isn't that a curious connection, maybe?). Maybe the Godskin Noble simply likes skin and fell in love with a being that lays down its skin from time to time - felt a connection to the worship of the snake skin - or felt some familiarity with the godeating snake. Maybe the Noble stayed true to an old alliance of paganistic heretics and Godslayers of a vengeful Queen, who went on to burn the Erdtree, reducing it to a mere golden illusion of Grace and belief. It certainly is allied with Eiglay/Rykard/The Volcano Manor out of some reason - or protects the snakeskin/Serpent's Amniom out of a reasonable volition, maybe a sense of duty or opportunism. It's a rather strong connection, I believe. The Great Serpent does not have direct ties to Farum Azula, I agree. But the Godskins have - a strong one at that! The timeline is overall so hard to patch together that I can't be sure of an alliance between the GEQ and the Serpent. It may have been disjunct events, maybe the first burning of the Erdtree has nothing to do with the Godskin Apostacy or a supposed Pagan uprising from Mt. Gelmir, a betrayal of the Snake. Maybe the Snake is reviled and symbolically killed over and over again in gladiatory combat out of other reasons, maybe Melinas instinct and knowledge of Farum Azula and how to burn the Erdtree come from somewhere else. But I think the connections I tried to lay out here to be quite curious. And I really enjoy discussing those :) If this answer seems rather rebuttal'y to you, I want to apologize - I do enjoy being challenged on these aspects and I know that there are some more outlandish takes I bring forth. I see all of this discourse as a constructive means to not only find the most probable truth, but also the most interesting stories and ideas - from this seedbed sprout the most intriguing new worlds and concepts, I believe. It's not always easy to properly adress all minuscule details, lore snippets and connections I have in the back of my mind - which bring me to the conclusion I stated here - given the medium of text and comment... But I hope I have adressed your points of concern satisfactory - and hopefully inspired you to even more ideas and criticism ;) \[T]/ Praise the Lore! \[T]/
This is easily the most well presented and pleasant to the ears lore channel I've encountered so far. I honestly have zero criticisms. So much of Elden Ring lore is interconnected so it's very appreciated that you lay things out in a way that can be understood even if we didn't watch your videos on the related topics. I dread the day i reach the end of your playlist.
Geoff, my brother in the shadow of the Erdtree, thank you SO much for what you do. Banger after banger of insightful, well made-with-love videos, with so much attention to detail and care for accuracy, all wrapped up in a bow of recognizing and appreciating your fellow content creators, showing your passion for this community and the creators within it. You really are a special type of RUclipsr, my friend, please don't ever change. You deserve so much more recognition than you get, and I'm stoked to, in some way, accompany you on your journey through the RUclips nightmare. Much love man, thanks again. 🐐 Baaaa. You masterful G.O.A.T.
Legend, thank you so much for your kind words and support as always. I am really pleased you enjoyed this one - I really love this subject. I wont ever change :) and I am always grateful for your kind words my friend.
Your videos are my favorite in the Elden Ring RUclips sphere. Thank you for putting out such incredible deep-dives into the lore of Elden Ring, and providing your perspective!
Your videos have always been so interesting and they also made me aware of Tarnished Archaeologist who, I’m sure you’d agree, produces theories and describes the story of the Lands Between in ways that I can’t even begin to explain how brilliant it is. TA and yourself (along with Vaati and Quelaag and many others) have done such incredible work for ER’s lore
In the beginning of the video you mention Ranni's omission of the gloam eyed queen. However the quote that you reference starts off with "Of the demigods..." so personally (and I could be wrong here, this is just speculation) I believe that the omission was due to the gloam eyed queen NOT being a demigod, and not in reference to them taking place during separate time periods. So this would mean that empereans could be selected amongst mere mortals. So the quote from Ranni saying "Of the demigods, only I, Miquella, and Malenia could claim that title" would still be true.
It could also be that she didn't know about the Gloam Eyed Queen. She is a pretty inconvenient bit of information for Marika, having wielded the power of Destined Death and being able to slay gods... The Godskins aren't really acknowledged by any character in the game as a faction, not even in passing so there could be some suppression of their history going on
One of the things I love best in your videos, is that you always thank your fellow lore seekers. If you use someone else's idea as a jumping off point, you make sure to show a link to the video that inspired the point, helping out channels with less subscribers. It's the mark of someone who cares about community, not just excellent content. Edit: Also just, thanks. These have to take forever to research and put together. And your lore videos are why I downloaded Elden Ring.
Thanks so much Phil - the community is just full of talent and I am so grateful for all the work they do! Thank you so much for the kind words. Your support means the world
man, your videos are always a treat. A lot of content struggles to keep my attention nowadays but I can easily sit through one of your videos and be interested the entire time. I adore this game and all the lore it has to offer so having people like you that clearly care so much about it making this content never ceases to make my day :)
Another interpretation of the serpent climbing the tree in the key mentioned at 47:50 is the Qabbalistic/Kabbalistic tree of life where the symbolism for climbing the tree to attain complete understanding and enlightenment, to become one with and aware of the Godhead, is a serpent climbing a tree. While the way down, the creation of reality by the Godhead, is a lightning bolt casting down. So it could imply that the Gloam-Eyed Queen desired absolute knowledge and a pursuit of the truth of the Elden Ring's power, or to commune with the Greater Will directly. Or to kill it. Just a thought.
Regarding the 7 faces on the robes of the godskin nobles: It might just be a numerical coincidence, but there exactly seven walking mausoleums housing the soulless remains of demigods.
There's one thing that has always fascinated me about the Godskin Prayerbook and Godslayer Seal. They're in the kitchen. Not a trophy room (like the Veil) or anywhere one might keep something that precious. It suggests to me, in my mind, that it was Gostoc (or another servant) who had it tucked away, perhaps to use against Godrick. It's possible it was in Godrick's possession first before possibly being stolen by Gostoc (who actually steals in-game, by the way). If I wanted to slay my demigod kin, I'd have the tool itself on me or close by.
I think it points to the idea that the Godskin cult and their ideology is, at it's core, an ideology in service to the "meek" and common. Which makes a certain logic, considering that the GEQ and the Godskins find the immortality of the gods abhorrent.
While watching this, it made me wonder about that eye that you get from Gurranq that resembles melina's blue eye. Do you think it's possible that when Maliketh defeated the gloam-eyed queen, that he took one of her eyes and sealed the other? Especially since Melina only has one blue eye in the frenzied flame ending and the other appears to be blind?
I think there is some relation to Ranni there, seeing as Ranni's doll has a blue eye opposite Melina's eye. It is odd that Ranni gives us a fake name at the start, and we also happen to meet her right around when we meet Melina. I love the theory that Ranni is the gloam-eyed queens protégé, and that her an Miquella didn't mean to kill Godrick, but rather, meant to kill Marika. This was a test to see if a soul could be detached from the body, and if their curses could be shirked. Unfortunately Marika was missing, but the ritual had began and someone had to die. We do find a Black Knife assassin outside Marika's bedchamber. The theory gets very wacky in that our tarnished is Miquella reborn into an Albinauric husk. Sure we don't bleed silver, but maybe our husk is the first successful attempt. One of the race descriptions in the starting menu states that the race 'used to bleed silver.' People seem to oddly trust us, just as Miquella had a gift of being trusted by most people. Melina was there when we were awoken, but Ranni mentions that Torrent was the one who found us, and that his prior owner wanted Torrent's choice to recieve his calling bell. In the teaser image for the DLC we see a person with long blonde hair sitting astride torrent. It may be Marika, but it may also be Miquella. We know Miquella wanted to tear down the order which had shunned and his brothers and ripped apart his family. His Halig tree wasn't successful, but maybe he was able to implant his curse into it. It did stop growing, just as Miquella curse should entail. We know he was interested in and experimenting on Albinaurics, as we find them all over his tree. Maybe he wanted to build a new body for himself once he could shirk his curse. They seem to think of him as their God. This may be why Mohg has been able to recruit his own army of them using Miquella's body as a symbol. Some people say his body is asleep since we see the arm move, but we only see the arm move when Mohg is inside of the cocoon with him. I bet he is manipulating the corpse to make the Albinaurics *think* he is alive, so that they will serve in his army and serve his ambitions. Mohg would have us believe that Miquella ran away with him, but we have no reason to trust that. He's trying to do incest with his underdeveloped femmeebride boy. I can't remember which item, but the description states that the Halig tree was broken into and someone absconded with the cocoon. That implies Mohg stole it. Also, if Miquella was asleep, how could he consent to that lol. The biggest point against Miquella being alive is that he does not bleed. His body looks dead and decayed. When you hit his arm poking through the cocoon there is no blood. When you find the living crucified beings around the world and hit them, they bleed. If you smack the living fingers, they bleed. If you smack the dead fingers, they don't bleed. This makes it clear to me that whatever is in the cocoon is not alive anymore.
I love your deep dives and how you consider not only your own thoughts but those of others while mentioning them and linking their videos. It's a wonder how big the lore community has gotten and in many cases everyone is kind of just doing their own thing so there's no wasted time checking out everybody's content.
@@SmoughTown agreed! So far, your section on the GEQ was awesome and spot on with what I've been theorizing for a long time now. Even though Fromsoft loves mystery and cryptic lore, they do also put in big clues and reveals for those who have done the digging. That's what I think is going on with the Frenzied Flame ending. It's meant to be a "Wow!" moment for those who paid attention to Godskin items along the way. So well presented and argued as always, Smough!
She could very well be the Gloam Eyed Queen's daughter, which would make a bit more sense. She has a purpose given to her by her mother, she has the same relations to the same magic, has her eye color, etc. It's less of a stretch to say she was burned when the erdtree was burned, while her mother actually died by the hand of Maliketh. On top of this, she is so, so very young looking, it would make less sense for her to be the Gloam Eyed Queen. To add to this, Ranni's body is completely charred, while Melina's is basically fine, except for some scars. It does not look like the same thing. We should also keep in mind the fact that Ranni not dying completely is because the death was split between her and Godwyin, each one of them dying in some form. There are sign of this (the half centipede mark), etc. There is no such indication for Melina, it would make more sense that GEQ died that day and Melina is her daughter.
@@scviper Wait. Where did we see Melina’s true body? I know Ranni inhabits a doll, and her real body is at the top of the divine tower in Liurnia charred black, but I only recall seeing Melina in the spiritual body she uses to travel with the Tarnished. Did I miss something, or are you basing that off the appearance of her projection with the burn scars on her hands?
@@juliushall8499 They said Melina’s body was basically fine, but all we see is her in some kind of spirit form. Who’s to say that’s how she would look if she had her body? I don’t recall ever seeing a body, like we did with Ranni.
Well done! I hadn’t considered that Melina’s eye is sealed shut in parallel with the bound Rune of Death. I had thought Melina could be the Queen before, but this detail might set that idea in stone for me. Great video! Thank you for making it.
Been a sub since the godskin video a year ago so it's nice that it's come full circle. Excited to see what you cover next, and what new situations the Albinauric Blood clot will be relevant. You seem like such a genuine dude and I really appreciate that.
It's really incredible to see so many great ER lore videos coming out, and you, SmoughTown are among the best. I always look forward to more of your content and was waiting for this video to release after you first announced it.
Hell yes Smough! I feel very fortunate to have you make an almost 2 hour long video about the aspect of the lore that immediately impacted me. As I uncovered more and more lore through item descriptions my first character turned from an Irina the Bloody Crow cosplay into a gloam eyed queen that I would finish 5 cycles as! Thank you sire, much love from the US
The Gloam-Eyed Queen one character I have always wanted to learn more about I hope that the DLC adds more lore about the Godskins they are one of the most facinitaying factions in Elden Ring, Love the content Smough keep up the great work always love listening to your videos when I am working
For me, the most coherent story is Melina being both the daughter of Marika and of the GEQ, as the GEQ was likely a face of Marika when the elden ring was still containing the death rune. In the alchimia principle, your main enemy is often yourself. Being a child of only one empyrean, she was naturally imperfect, born bodyless. Once the GEQ were defeated by Maliketh, i.e. when the death rune was sealed outside of the elden ring, Radagon took her place as the new strong personality. Melina was then half gold from Marika, and gloam from the GEQ.
the connection between the unleashing of the rune of death and the reappearnce of the gloam eyed queen in the only ending where she did not sacrifice herself was brilliant. The only point left that is still a bit confusing to me is why melina figths using erdtree incantations and not using black flame incantation when we summon her.
@cosseybomb Where else did Maliketh gain the ability, if not the Gloam Eyed Queen? Destined Death was her power until Maliketh took the Rune of Death and defeated her, which made the Balck Flame lose the power it once held. There is too much mystery behind her, though, for me to be too sure about any more than that.
I’m just getting into the souls series and this channel is a huge landmark on my journey, some of the highest quality content I’ve found on the platform
Im so excited to see this show up! Amazing work as usual, this had brought up more evidence i saw but never connected and im happy to hear it explained!
I always figured the Gloam Eyed Queen was Melina, given her black eye and obsession with Destined Death in the 'Lord of Chaos' ending. Excited to learn more about it!
It never really hit me until now that the Tarnished just hangs out with the Gloam-Eyed Queen throughout the journey. I wonder if all Melina is is GEQ just without her power and memories(as in same personality or values). Even if motivations are different, she ends up doing the same thing, just sacrificing herself in the process as Melina. Your closest ally was Marika’s closest enemy, then ally.
I do hope for a future DLC we get to fight a newly appointed Godskin Queen or King who bends with all of the Gods the previous Godskins have killed. Like the Demon Prince from DS3.
I wish they had more endings with Malina, and her reaction to the new ages you choose to bring about. Naturally most people wouldn't see them on a first play-through, requiring that you ally with frenzy, only to abandon it in favor of another path. Still would have been nice.
Super interesting the idea that the Gloam-Eyed Queen was aided by a serpent to create the Godskin apostles and rebel against Marika. With new info from the DLC, we have confidence that Melina is the younger sister of Messmer. Both siblings share a vision of fire, and Messmer himself is one with the abyssal serpent. It adds even more to the huge stack of circumstantial evidence that Melina is the GEQ and lines up nicely with the theory
I've been liking the thought of one of Marika's early children becoming the gloam-eyed queen more and more! Like Melina. ((The drama of that kind of betrayal is delicious of course.)) Maybe this child of Marika saw the age of plenty end, or fore-saw it, and the issues with her Golden Order even way back then. Issues I think were aplenty even without Destined Death sealed yet. That's kind of Marika's/the Golden Order's THING lol. Maybe this child wanted to address this state of affairs by following their Empyrean path? Marika also has the power to completely expunge the record of that demigod child's name, temples, following, etc. 'Gloam-eyed Queen' really has 'Nameless King' vibes for me from DS. The gloam-eyed queen being an early child of Marika would also help the current npc's in-game not really have much memory of her. I personally do think the black-flame of destined death is what first burned the Erdtree. Either the GE queen managed it before Maliketh defeated her or, upon death, she burned the Erdtree in defeat. (Kindling maiden vibes and all that.) If her defeat meant the instant-defanging of Destined Death's black flame though; maybe that's why the first burning didn't entirely succeed and the faith-based Erdtree was able to persist? If it was Melina, how messed up Marika's actions likely were! To have re-birthed her defeated child from the Erdtree (or with Radagon) in the final hour? Or maybe she always kept the GE queen's spirit alive and imprisoned? Man, I love the Gloam-Eyed mystery in Elden Ring so much. It's so fun to theorize about.
The Gloam Eyed Queen was the bit of lore that really drug me under into being obsessed with the story this game tells and alludes to. I did the frenzied flame ending my first playthrough of the game and the ending cutscene with Melina was so intriguing to me which led me to my first theory that Melina is the GEQ (don’t think that anymore) but I really just dug through every item description available and became obsessed with the one empyrean who we know almost nothing about (in terms of like when she existed and who she actually is)
EDIT: I typed this reply out before finishing the video (about an hour in) so if anything I said was touched on, I apologize for being repetitive I personally believe that Melina is not the Gloam Eyed Queen, but I also don't have a real answer as to who the GEQ or Melina are should they not be the same person. With Melina, the dialogue about Boc: "Does being born of a mother... Mean one behaves in such a manner?" is interesting as I think it could be referring to Melina being birthed from droplets in the Erdtree during the Age of Plenty (as TA alluded in his videos) which could have interesting implications as to what occurs inside the Erdtree to form life. I say this in reference to her stating that she was given a purpose by her mother inside the Erdtree, what if she was literally inside the Erdtree and her mother is something is the Erdtree itself or maybe the Greater Will itself. My last point in this line of thought is, I believe, the most interesting and possible "original idea" (I'm sure someone else has said this at some point), but what if Melina was being birthed from the Erdtree as a droplet during the Age of Plenty but as her birth was occurring, the Erdtree was burned (either for the first time or one of the previous times) which would explain why she is "burned and bodyless" if she was never actually birthed into a physical body. This could also piece together why she uses the Age of Plenty symbol in her incantations. It could also explain why the one thing she will not standby and allow us to do is become the Lord of Chaos; if the Erdtree or the Greater Will is some sort of mother to her, the only ending that would be specifically forbade would be the one that leaves Order behind. The other thought I had was that she was not born from a mother, as she stated, but instead was born from an artificial birth akin to the Godskins. Could she be the artificial daughter of the GEQ? Who knows, I'm just here to throw out theories I think have SOME basis in what we know while trying to go out on a limb.
@@wollins7244 In game her powers are sealed away. If you kill Meliketh and Melina is still alive she gets her powers back. She talks about Destined Death more than any other character and that eye is definitely Gloam. Not to say that you're wrong for your theory. But the game itself hints way more to her being the Gloam eyed queen. Her new look, her dialog. The timing of when her powers return. If anything maybe her memories where lost after she got beat by Meliketh.
@@wollins7244 Doesn't Ranni's route leave the order behind, too? Wouldn't she want to stop us from going with it? She also didn't try to convince you not to do Dungeaters ending, which is also very bad for the tree.
Could GeQ be the one that trained Ranni? There's this constant reference to a witch, also how did Ranni know she could split herself into a doll form. I'm convinced she learned it from GeQ, and that Melina is just the GeQ puppet body. Also Melina has burn scars similar to Ranni's original body. And this has further implications about why The Godskin Noble guards her body on the bridge. Not that it was drawn to the Rune of Death but that it was to guard the secret of the body, also it seems odd that Iji is covered in Black Flame when you find him dead despite the dead assassins. I think we were given the run around by Melina, I don't think Melina is just Melina, but a puppet body. The way we were puppeted by her in the first place to become Elden Lord, by killing Maliketh we undid the seal binding Melinas eye. Melina's sacrifice just seems so artificial and doesn't bother her in the least. It doesn't make sense unless her spirit can just house another body.. like a puppet and the only person we've seen do this is Ranni. Who learned this technique from a banished witch, who told her what to do, to assassinate Godfrey.. it all links back together if you consider both Ranni and yourself pawns in a much larger bigger game spanning thousands of years. It's my belief Maliketh defeated GeQ but didn't kill her, took her Rune of Death for Marika, and the cursed witch went off into the world and joined the Carian House, finding an Empyrean that would rebel and sowing the seeds of discord to get back to their original power. Very witch like to do. A classic tale.. I think GeQ was Marikas sister, one representing Death and the other Life. And Marika is truly the one at fault.. although something does feel funny with Maliketh's quote. "Marika, is this what it is to Sin?" Why did Marika curse Maliketh.. unless the plot carried out against GeQ was not by Marika's design but by Maliketh acting of his own accord, all of the shadows seem to have this fixation, this overzealous need to protect. I think Maliketh defeated GeQ but out of a crazed need to protect Marika and not by design. That is why he is cursed, and Marika lives in a perpetual state of shame unable to accept anyone but herself. Similar to two other twins who's love hurt the Greater Will. It's a repeating circle if we take a step back, and the Rune of Death is meant to be free.
Weird, though, that people seem to keep on living in the Lands Between unless they're murdered. The malice in the Godskinners' practices also suggests that this isn't a mere cycle of life faction either.
@@nightscout9979 We have no way of knowing if the modern Godskin cult's actions are indicative of how they acted in the past, when their flames burned with Destined Death and they were under the rule of the GEQ. Looking at the state in which something exists NOW and saying that's how it's ALWAYS been, is a dangerous misstep. One could say then, that Leyndell and the Lands Between have always been in ruins, even during Marika's Age of Plenty; or that Marika has always been a god just because she is now. We know that's not true, but that exposes the fallacy of such logic.
Imo the Beast Eye is Gurranq's own eye, besides it's name is a bit straight forward, the purple-ish color is also very similar to Blaidd's eyecolor who is the same kind of being as Gurranq. It resonates with deathroot wich contains the fragments of the Rune of Death, wich is as of know housed in Gurranq's body, so it would make sense for it to detect them. Also his character model doesn't have eyes under the hood or armor. (wich is to be fair if you make a character model and don't plan to show it's eyes, you probably wouldn't bother making one.) And Melina still has an eyeball in the cutscene, if it would be closed or had an empty socket I would lean a bit more believing that the Beast Eye is her's. Also as a side note, why would Malekith take her eye and keep it for who knowh how many thousands of years and accidentally finding a use for it.
To be fair, she could have taken it from the player. We know that Torrent’s whistle is left behind, so our other belongings could have been as well. If the player never had the eye, Melina could have taken it from Maliketh, as he is dead by the ending. Still, you could be right. With the beasts being associated with stone craft and the eye being made of stone, it very well could be an invention of Farum Azula. Others have said that it could be Marika’s eye, as her flesh is stone and is missing an eye. In the end, I hope with the lore from the expansion that we get more info on all of this.
@@jackweaver1846 I would exclude Marika from the list, becuse she was in the tree since she shattered the ring , I doubt Malekith could have just strolled in and take an eye. And I forgot to add that Gurranq seemingly has two servants, us and D. So for an eye for the both of us would make sense, since D is also "weeding" deathroot. But yeah, I suspect the expansion will have some heavy death themes, wich might clarify some things.
On the topic of Melina being a potential candidate to be the gloam eyed queen, in the DLC we learn that there’s a connection between Mesmer and Melina. Messmer’s flame is both red and black, so there would be a possibility that Melina’s flame could also be imbued with black as well.
The more I think about the Outer Gods as "kami" and the Greater Will as something else entirely, the more I start thinking the Greater Will isn't some sort of cosmic outside force or an eldritch god or something. My current theory is that the Greater Will is more of ... a collective consciousness. It struck me when you said something along the lines of "the Greater Will just wants /an/ order, it doesn't necissairly care which form that order takes." Sounds like the collective consciousness of man in the world of Elden Ring. A nebulous, formless, untouchable force pleading for order in the world; it would make sense as to why albinauracs and other "unnatural" things may seem impure; they may not have a connection to the Greater Will itself giving them a bit of a "blank" effect like the Sisters of Silence from Warhammer, though muted. Maybe Omens as well. Just a rough theory.
A great video. I am personally the theory that Melina isn't the daughter of Marika in the usual sense, rather that after her death at the hands of Maliketh. Marika perhaps took her soul and had her rebirthed within the Erd Tree. Given Marika had plans to betray the Erd Tree and the Greater Will, a powerful being like the Gloam-Eyed Queen would be a powerful tool to use in her plans if the Queen could be controlled of course. This seems to make the most sense as Melina seems to be a secret being that the rest are not aware of and the amount of secrets she is privy to compared to Marika's own flesh and blood.
Because they have been killed, only when you let the chaos god consume you does she reawaken to her purpose. Probably something like that. Shabiri is that God.
@@halcyon6098 She reawakens as the glum eyed queen when you do, though if you use the golden needle she will no longer hunt you down, though she will no longer talk to you. Honestly the best option to save her.
While many people want a Miquella ending, I've always wanted a GEQ ending. You could reawaken all of Melina's memories, find a different way to the rune of death, and then burn the Erdtree in black flame! Melina becomes the new god, and you her Elden Lord. Right now I'm doing a Vargram cosplay playthrough, so it's been on my mind.
3:00 wrong you are omitting the important part in between. "OF THE DEMIGODS" she says. They go out of their way to have her say that among her siblings and half siblings only those few were selected as empyreans. It is possible that she was not aware fully of the gloam eyed queen being selected as an empyrean or perhaps she was intentionally omitting her and other potential empyreans from being known by stating that she was specifically talking about amongst the demigod children.
Again, thank you so much for making these! I'm listened to them all at least 2 times! Would love to see you re-do some of your older videos, especially the Miquella one since I find him 1 of the most interesting characters in the game but your ideas about the lore has changed significantly since! Even if it's just a smaller update on some of your older videos that'd be awesome.. and them being smaller updates you could mb do them in between your longer videos. Always can't wait for your next video to come out! You're the best ER lore creator by far imo! ❤ Also on this video subject, I definitely think it's Melina as well.. I just don't think the developers with the Frenzy Flame ending leaving such an amazing cutscene like that would do it without it having important lore implications.. I feel like that is just 1 of the strongest indicators for me, I think it's meant to be a big reveal.. then you add in all the little pieces of lore you detailed in the video. It just fits so well together imo, but the cutscene just is kind of the clincher for me.. having that 1 eye sealed all game just to reveal her "gloam eye"
I'd also add that since the Erdtree has been burned before, maybe Melina's burn scars are from burning the Erdtree in the past? Could be another reason other than her punishment
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Thank you once again so-so much for commissioning me for this project! Your idea to build a location based on the Swaddling Cloth was fantastic and really inspiring and I had lots of fun working on both the renders and the thumbnail! 🌟
Been my absolute pleasure Eugenia. Thank you so much for all your hard work in bringing this faction to life!
As someone who absolutely loves fan artwork of my favourite games, thank you for making such awesome looking renderings
Wonderful, just wonderful... Sometimes I just shake my head in disbelief on how well done all of this is... true artists 👏
@@ThommyofThenn Thank you so much! It was an honor to prepare these renders for such an awesome creator🙌
@@cpucourage oh, thank you so much! SmoughTown's idea to jump off the Swaddling Cloth's item description was truly inspiring!
Thank you everyone for watching my take on the Gloam-Eyed Queen. Please leave your thoughts below!
I think Ranni's choice of words 'Among the Demigods' is very telling, from that I had the thought that The Gloam Eyed Queen was no Demigod, but perhaps a Tarnished like the player character
@@EarCat Yeh it's a great point to be fair
@@SmoughTown I'm glad you thought so! Thanks for Validating my idea, SmoughTown!
Thanks for all the work you do. I came for Elden Ring but was absolutely delighted to see you also did Warframe lore vids. You're a legend man.
@@Beefercow Thank you my friend, your support means the world to me
A year after release, when most people have moved onto other games, this guys is still pumping out hour and a half long lore videos of top quality. This man is a godsend to the souls community 😂
Hahah thanks so much my friend! Still got plenty of subjects I want to cover!
Preeeaaacccchhh
That's why nobody will ever top FromSoft. The more that you dig into these games, the more that there is to find.
I started playing only this week and so I'm very happy someone is stil making lore videos
@@SmoughTowndude I I’m still coming back to your videos trying to piece things together. Thank you
Thank you for everything you've created for this community over the past year!!! You are a YT treasure.
Wow 2 hundo. Much deserved
@@aaronclay4665 Im intrueged. I understand pessimism, not from an outsode perspective either, but alls signs ive seen point to the contrary.
Got any eye openers? Or are you weighed doen by the anchor of truth? Jaded by knowledge, pained by experiance?
Wow Justin, I have only just got the notification for this! Thank you so so much for your generosity! I am overwhelmed, thank you so much
Holy crap, man dropped the big bucks
Nice
To offer a suggestion for the number seven; there are three apostles and three nobles in the game, and above them their queen, a total of seven bodies. It’s up to interpretation if the true apostles under the queen were numerous enough to be considered an army, since you’d have to skin… a lot of gods to clothe an army of them. I personally believe that the amount of them we see in the game, and the fact that they resurrect one another through manipulation of death, that they were an undying army of six lead by the GEQ.
I’m pretty sure they were being cheap with some god skin, just using other types of skin
There's four apostles, I think. One in the Windmill village, one in the Divine tower of Caelid, one in Farum Azula (the godskin duo), and finally one in the bottom of a dungeon (I vaguely remember it being the one with the huge bear in the cave, where you have to contend with a bunch of spirit summoning snails right before the boss room with the apostle).
That makes 4 apostles, and 3 nobles, which would bring us to the holy number of 7 yet again.
@@brigandboy1425 the snail boss battle has you fight both an apostle and a noble, but they are both spirits being called forth by the spirit-caller snail to fight in its place. Defeating the snail does give you the godskin swaddling cloth, though, so maybe there's more to it than just mundane summoning
@@brigandboy1425 the spiritcaller snail bossfight actually can have you fight both an apostle and a noble if you avoid killing the snail and wait a bit after beating the first one. So if spirit summons count that would be 8. But i still personally think that the spiritcaller fight was just put in as a fun bossfight that is a much easier version of other godskin boss fights but they combined with the fact the snail drops the godskin cloth talisman could imply that either this noble and apostle died and were unable to be revived the way that the other godskins are or that their is something very peculiar and yet unexplained going on with the godskin creation process.
I really like how you show respect to your fellow lore-tubers by mentioning their work and how their ideas inspire your own. A class act!
Thanks my friend! I think it’s super important to give credit where it’s due!
100% agree. So nice to encounter a good person in what feels like shitty times.
I just watched a vid from Crunchy that shouted out this channel, TA, LP, and a bunch of others for helping them really get a read on some things in the game.
I really feel like this subset of the community, in particular, is super good about giving credit where it's due. And it makes me even happier to be around these parts.
Standing on the shoulder of giants is how all great progress is made. Truly humbling
This is one of the things I love about the SoulsBourne community, it’s so friendly and supportive of each other. I don’t even play the games but I love these videos because they’re so interesting and because everyone is so respectful and nice to each other and sadly that’s rare on the internet
Fantastic stuff, as always. You actually did a better job of explaining the Erdtree's first burning than we did! And how you synthesized it with GEQ lore is excellent. Kudos, my man.
Wow thank you so much! Means the world coming from yourself - thank you so much for your incredible work
You two are absolutely my favorite lore channels! the fact that your works are cooperative is a blessing.
You guys are absolutely right that the Erdtree was burned before. And we know exactly who did it. It was Godfrey, First Elden Lord. I noticed that nobody mentioned the spirit, northeast from the Erdtree Sanctuary Grace in Leyendell. The spirit only appears in the Ashen Capital Version. The spirit says: "He is returned. The Lord had returned at long last. Our very first lord, to brandish the Elden Ring once more…" We ourselves had to burn the Erdtree to brandish the Elden Ring. And Godfrey did that before us and is about to do it again.
Two legends right here. I love seeing this community work together to create such incredible content.
And yeah, Geoff's account of the timeline and Erdtree's first burning is strong. I wasn't sold on the Erdtree being a stump wrapped in grace at first. After all, where are the falling leaves coming from? And if it's just a phantom, how is there that much ash once we burn it?
But after seeing TA's video, I can't help but see the clues in my current playthrough. No one else can see it except us. And everyone else talks about its former glory. WHAT ABOUT THAT GIANT GLOWING TREE WE CAN ALL SEE? RIGHT?!?
Nope. The GEQ burned it down the first time and has rendered it a symbol of faith which now defines the Golden Order. And only a Tarnished blessed by grace can see it. Us and Corwyn I believe?
Great work you guys. This game is incredible.
The two of you are some of the best lore analyzers by far, alongside Quelaag!
The Gloam Eyed Queen was meant to destroy Marika's Age of Plenty, but Marika defeated her and thus became known as the "Eternal" as her age was meant to know no end.
Oh that makes a lot of sense actually. As to why there's not much evidence suggesting what her name was. Her purpose was to show Marika strength in keeping her order and explains how she obtained destined death
I really like the sound of that.
it seems she was successful at burning the erdtree itself but not slaying marika, and marika had maliketh burn her in return.
Eventually the phantom erdtree was set up on the ruined stump of the old, and this deathless age of the erdtree we now know began.
I think the GEQ might've been a response to the decline of the Age of Plenty, with death being required to potentially renew things and start a new age. But she lost and the Golden Order was established as a solution instead.
Yep, it definitely feels like Marika was another god-ruler trying to extend her age, and unlike in DS, she succeeded... and paid the price for it.
Which is also what I like about the Lord of Frenzy ending: you think you're breaking the wheel by burning the whole world, but your age will also be brought to a close by Melina - finally fulfilling her original role.
Your shout outs to Tarnished Archeologist and Last Protagonist are what make this part of the community so wholesome. All 3 of ya'll do amazing work, and I'm glad that all of you openly draw from one other to get the best read on the story and lore the game has to offer.
For real. Its like citing sources in a thesis. I can see that he did a lot of reasearch giving him credibility.
Could the Beast Eye given by Gurranq be the Gloam Eyed Queen’s right eye? The color fits and the lines on the side of the item are a mirror to those of the claw mark on Melina’s left eye, and if Maliketh was the one to defeat her then he could very well have removed it during the scuffle. Its ability to sense Death fits the theme as well.
Interesting theory.
Probably not, we see that Melina still has her eye if you do the Lord of Frenzied Flame ending, but it’s a fun theory!
@@WinterRoseYTthat scene was a revealing that she got her eye back or that her eye is now operating again meaning she is once again the gloom eyed queen
@@Trifacta1 yes I know that, but that doesn’t mean the beast eye is the gloam eye. It makes no sense for us to be given it and then for her to suddenly have it, and the gloam eye isn’t very beastial either
@@WinterRoseYTwhat if the eye we see in the FoF ending is a more spectral projection of the missing eye? It wouldn’t be too dissimilar to radagons fake arm. And If it isn’t Melina’s eye, what is it? Honestly this theory lines up off first impressions
To add to the Godslayer's Greatsword theory, I'm fairly confident that the sword's design (the helix shape, hollow blade, and shape of the hilt) was to physically carry the rune of death, and hence channel it's power. If you line the two up next to each other, the rune of death not only resembles the sword in shape, but fits inside the sword near perfectly.
Marika and the Gloam-Eyed Queens runes are inverts of each other, which is actually mimicked by Malenia (Rune of Decay) and the cut Miquella rune (Rune of Abundance) so is it not possible that The Gloam-Eyed Queen wasn't some random Emperyian, but instead was Marika's sister? It seems like its common among all of the children that there are opposites. If Marika's rune gives eternal life, then her sister having the power to kill anything would make sense.
Interesting
Interesting thought but I would say that Radagon is her opposite because we see that he tries to restore the Elden Ring and Marika destroying it. Radagon in my opinion is also a lot more cautious because he disarmed the royal family of Caria and the Academy of Raya Lucaria by manipulating Rennala. He also ensured a back up plan through the cuckoo. The only times we hear about Marika is when she wages war against other factions like the giants.
@@JinTheWitch Perhaps Radagon became such after the GEQ was left burned and bodiless, which left a vacancy that had to be filled.
@@blackhat4206 GEQ?
I’m reading it as GEQ- gloam-eyed queen.
I just find it insane that Maliketh was able to defeat her WITHOUT Destined Death in his possession. Even with the ability to utterly extinguish life in her hands, she still couldn't stop this absolute freight train of a creature. It makes you wonder how much stronger must he have been before plunging Destined Death into his own flesh.
His sword was imbued with Destined Death though. He wielded it openly and brashly if I remember from his sword's description. The Malekith we fight is basically the one who defeated the GEQ. That's why he says "Death, become my blade ONCE MORE" in the transition.
His punishment by Marika for allowing Ranni to steal a fragment of Death (possibly broken off of his sword?) was to then have it hidden in his flesh instead. He's no longer allowed to carry it openly.
But all of this is messing with my understanding of the timeline a bit.
We know the Golden Order was established when the Rune of Death was removed from the Elden Ring. So, when did that happen? I thought it was a response to the Godskin apostasy and the GEQ's defeat.
So, he harnesses the power of the rune of death, defeats the GEQ, and then is given the rune fully when Marika removed it from the Ring, thereby establishing the Golden Order?
But then much later, Ranni steals a fragment of it from him, enacts the night of black knives, and then Malekith is punished by having the rune embedded in his flesh?
We are told that Marika betrays Malekith though. How? With the Shattering maybe? Since the Golden Order was established at Malekith's punishment, shattering the Elden Ring sort of flies in the face of what Malekith is having to endure now? Idk.
I guess that makes sense as I type it out. Sorry for the word dump in your post lol.
@@TSpoon823 That's not quiet true, incorporating death directly into his body ravaged his body. He is raked by an unending hunger, and judging from the way he moves and talks as Gurranq it's likely he's lost a good deal of his mental and physical faculties. Housing Death within yourself seems to sap vitality as part of it's fundamental nature; Ranni's puppet body needs long periods of rest to function, Godwyn is eternally rotting, and Rogier's contact with Godwyn's corpse led to him rotting and falling into a sleep he would never wake up from. It's likely that living beings are fundamentally incompatible with Death; put simply having Death inside you when you're Alive means you're in the process of Dying. Thus, it's pretty likely Maliketh has been diminished in some capacity by housing Destined Death within himself, it's not supposed to be inside of living beings. It's part of what makes him tragic, doing his duty in this capacity means he is a perpetual state of dying.
I don't think unleashing Destined Death into his blade undoes the damage that he's accrued over the course of (at least) a millennia. As I mentioned earlier, Ranni's current body is artificial and doesn't even have her half of the Cursemark of Death in it, but she's still has to go into periods of deep sleep intermittently. It seems pretty reasonable to me that even if he's not housing the entirety of death within his body, Maliketh still feels the consequences of it.
Also, Maliketh himself decided to bind what remained of destined death to himself in order to better protect it. Marika never explicitly punished him for it, he decided to do it himself out of a sense of duty for his failure. Given that it's quiet possible Marika intentionally enabled Ranni to get her hands on Death, it's likely that's the betrayal that the lore points to.
Maliketh is a shadow to Marika in the same way Blaidd is to Ranni; while he is infinitely loyal, he essentially comes installed with a switch implanted by the Two Fingers to have him Kill Her if she steps out of line. Given that we know Marika is traitorous to the Greater Will, it's likely she could not directly ask Maliketh for Death without exposing her schemes and risking him potentially being forced to kill her by the Two Fingers. With this in mind, I believe she set him up Maliketh to fail in protecting it by sending the Black Knives to obtain it on her behalf, and provide it to Ranni as an alibi when it was discovered to be missing. I suspect obtaining Destined Death was her plan "A" in killing the Elden Beast with Hewg's Godslaying Weapon being plan "B". Unfortunately, Death split into the 2 cursemarks that inhabited Ranni('s Original) body and Godwyn's Corpse, leading it to not be usable for her, ending that plan before the Shattering even took place.
This leaves Maliketh (and the Two Fingers) completely unaware of Destined Death being taken as part of Marika's designs, saving her from having Maliketh being forced to turn on her, but also in a state of despair over his failure. Hence he "punished" himself on her behalf for his "failure". It's really sad, because he's permanently locked out of the loop despite probably being one of the characters closest to Marika. It show's how deep her scheming and ambitions went that she would essentially throw away someone so powerful who literally only lived to serve her; someone who would sentence himself to eternally dying for someone who has been running from death herself most of her rule.
@@TSpoon823 You know, I never realized playing the game, but it *is* ambiguous in terms of what happened after the Rune of Death was removed from the Elden Ring. I assumed after it was plucked out, it was discarded and somehow found by the Gloam Eyed Queen. We know it was sealed within Maliketh's Black Blade, but it's unclear if that happened immediately. Marika's only use for Maliketh was to hold it, after all.
But then it's also stated that the Black Flames used by Godskins were at one time imbued with Destined Death, and their life-sapping ability is just a paltry remnant of its true power. How could they have had access to it if Maliketh had already had the whole Rune? Before then it would have been incorporated into Marika herself as part of the Elden Ring.
I'm thinking there had to have been some wacky shenanigans where the GEQ had the rune, did the "guess I'll die then" meme to the entirety of Marika's family and had to be put down.
Well, before being turned mad by the fingers, Blaidd is immortal (as a shadow), it could be that Maliketh was also immune to destined death and strong enough to just destroy the entire army, not sure how I feel about the in-game mechanic, since it affects him like anyone else, but doesn't ever allow us to truly kill something other than the tree. To this day we can kill Maliketh and have Caelid Gurranq alive and viceversa, thought I heard some associate this to Farum Azula's whole timestorm thing
The thing is, Maliketh is still serving Marika and she's still a God, just imprisoned, but under control.
@@ungratefulingrate1268 I never thought about him being immune to Destined Death, but that makes sense considering Blaidd can return from death before going feral.
It's also kind of interesting that Marika literally destroying the Elden Ring didn't activate Maliketh's programming and render him insane. What exactly did her Two Fingers consider betrayal if not that?
I always assumed that Destined Death was the Great Rune of The Gloam Eyed Queen, and Maliketh received it after defeating her. Similar to how the tarnished is able to take and use the great runes in the game.
If that's the case it makes his victory against her and the godskin all the more impressive. Cause he didn't fight them on an even playing field but beat them when at a disadvantage.
Great runes in the possesion of Demi gods only became a thing after the shattering.
@@stevennuic3020 in possession of demi-gods yes, but runes seems to be the core of the orders . Shattering is just a way to give mostly her childs a chance to take her place if worthy
@@gotama7239 that's your theory? Because we dont know what the Intention of marika Was, when she shattered the elden Ring. It's up to debatte. I dont agree With your theory. Or do you have a source for your claim?
@@stevennuic3020 I do have some dialogues reference in mind ruclips.net/video/7H9ShXxetxk/видео.html
Now that we know Messmer exists I think this is the answer to who first burned the Erdtree and I suspect why Melina is burned. Only she could burn the tree properly "special kindeling" what if Messmer used Melina's body to burn the Erdtree first way back and that is why she is burned and bodiless in the in-game events.
That makes me wonder if maybe the scadutree was the first iteration of the erdtree before messmer burnt it and that's part of why Marika abandoned him in the shadow realm to fight her revenge war till his death
Well.... shiet
1:36:23 interesting how Miquella's Needle sets the stage for the perfect Gloam-Eyed Queen ending. With the Forge activated and the Frenzied Flame subdued, she can reclaim Destined Death, burn down the Erdtree and slay Marika to become the new queen.
Excellent video SmoughTown.
Thanks so much my friend
Such a missed opportunity!
@@monsieurdorgat6864 I think its part of the charm and worldbuilding
@@ElMayo31 But you could have had a GEQ as a new final boss for undergoing the Miquella's Needle quest to completion!
Melina awakens as the GEQ, slays Radagon with Destined Death, and then YOU have to fight HER to become Elden Lord!
Missed opportunity.
@@monsieurdorgat6864 Since this is the GEQ ending, we would be fighting Marika herself as secret boss. After defeating Maliketh with Melina and awakening her powers, there could even be an additional step of her questline where we retrieve the Godslayer Greatsword from the Divine Tower so she can restore it with the true power of Destined Death, upgrading it to red and black flames and giving us some lore on the God Hunt.
It is indeed a missed opportunity, but it makes sense they'd wait until the DLC to explore this questline since they clearly wanted to build up the mystery around Melina and the GEQ.
A good thing to notice in the Melina Gloam Eyed Queen theory is that she had a natural enemy. Not only a rivalry between the golden order and hers, but also the one force of nature she prevents the tarnished from interacting with.
Melina is completely opposed to the 3 fingers, meaning that the blackflame and the frenzied flame are not only incompatible, but also enemies forces that have been clashing since the age of the first elden lord, Godfrey.
We know that the existence of frenzy flame dates back to the origin of life. But the fact that it was feared and hated by a candidate of the gloam eyed queen's identity and Marika herself.
I also would like to mention that even if Melina is not the Gloam Eyed Queen, I refuse to believe she was turned to a sword, why? Because one of the tarnished that the Volcano Manor hunts, who is located in Leyndell, owns that same sword, and in his armor description it's said he wished to take an empyrean shadow role, much similar to Blaidd. Why would a shadow use the corpse turned sword of the empyrean he is trying to serve? Of course it could be a very distorted and tragic background lore if that was the case, but I find it very unlikely.
@@Mikael_Ore he has that sword because he wants to be a shadow bound beast they all use destined death other then blaiid
@@maniac7302 that is my point, so he would not use that sword if it was made with the Gloam Eyed Queen's death body, since he wants to serve her
@@Mikael_Ore how do we know he wants to serve the Gloam Eyed Queen, specifically? He might just want to serve any two fingers that are aligned with the Golden Order. Saying that he serves the Gloam Eyed Queen because of his sword is like saying Maliketh served the Gloam Eyed Queen because of his blade being that of Destined Death, a weapon that she utilized against the Demigods. It could be that he just wants to be like Maliketh in that he's using a weapon that has death empowering it, while also serving whoever it is that will become Elden Lord. It's worth noting that you find him trying to fight people who serve the Volcano Manor, an organization dedicated to destroying the current ruling order. You'd think he'd join up with the Volcano Manor if that were the case, especially because we see a Godskin noble and Blackflame Monks in the Manor.
The fact that he fights against this group of people tells me that he isn't trying to serve the Gloam Eyed Queen
Take into consideration as well that many fire monks left their flame for the black flame seems to show they are all incompatible with each other, or all linked to possible new ages.
An element that I noticed watching this video: Melina's eye shines with the light of grace.
In the Frenzied Flame ending cutscene, where the Erdtree is destroyed, her already-open eye is a dim, grey color - unlike the golden shine it has previously.
I'm unsure if this has gone un-noticed, or was simply not stated for other reasons, but it's neat.
Well it makes sense, the Erdtree is the source of grace. So with it being completely destroyed the light of grace is snuffed out of existence.
The tree is gone. There is no grace in that ending
I think shes connect ed to the tree. Thats why she only shows up when you sit by the grace. And she can be summoned to fight only when we set foot almost next to the tree itself.
Coming back to this video I noticed, the sword designs are also inverted. While the gloam eyed queen’s gets progressively more unwoven, the relic sword becomes more compact. It reminds me of chaos and order, death and life.
I’ve been a recent viewer of your channel, maybe for a month or so now, from someone who’s an editor and recorder, I know first hand it’s not easy to produce hour long videos, that require extensive research, then sit down, and record then edit it, I’d just like to thank you for your hard work and dedication to pushing out such amazing content, keep up the hard work brother! Peace ✌️
You humble me my friend. I really appreciate the generosity and kind words - the hard work is all worth it because of the kind support I get.
Thank you so much
There is this thing called "achlys" that is the mist which fogs/blinds the eyes of a person in death. And it's the name of a Greek goddess associated with death-mist, misery and sadness. Also in German "götterdämmerung" means "Twilight of the Gods" which is synonymous to an event in Norse Mythology called Ragnarok where multiple gods are fated to die. And I feel like these where the inspiration for the Gloam-Eyed Queen's character to a large extend.
Huh, the fact that Destined Death is referred to as a “forbidden shadow” over the golden order makes me wonder if we’ll be learning more about the gloam-eyed queen in the upcoming Shadow of the Erdtree dlc.
Maybe we'll go back in time and that's why we see a wooden Erdtree and Miquella riding torrent
@@Empireo_sebastianthats my theory too. Back in time to pre burned tree. We meet torrent which would explain why hes so fond of us in the beginning of the game. Us slaying the queen at her peak.
Nope
Nope, just genocide 😎
This one blew me away with how well-done it was. The findings, insight, and occasional humor made the runtime feel like a fraction of what it actually was, and it's crazy how much more can be added to these discussions even after a year of covering the story.
This is incredible work, and I appreciate the shout-out immensely 🙏
Thank you brother, really appreciate the kind words and support - means the world coming from you!
waaw! the lore in this game is fukked up beyond many levels
I've always been a contrarian on Melina being the GEQ (mostly because I was unsure of the thematic relevance or how to square the circle of her being both the GEQ and Marika's daughter), but you might have finally convinced me. Beautifully done video, as always
I still don't see how she can be both.
What I can’t seem to get over is how there’s a godskin noble outside Ranni’s divine tower.
I'm torn between two theories, a) the one mentioned in the video that the godskin is attracted to the death cursemark on Ranni's original body, and b) that this is the godskin that led the hit squad on Ranni's followers since Iji is burned by black flame and we find no other godskin in direct relation to Ranni's questline like that.
I have a theory that the godskin noble is guarding rannis body possibly waiting for backup.
I love that you reference and acknowledge other creators and videos that helped shape your understanding. Really makes it feel like Souls Lore is a collaborative effort.
Not to mention the artists you commission for each video. Really good stuff.
I absolutely agree - it's an incredible community that works together to push our understanding forward!
because if you don't, you get death threats on reddit and pitchfork mobs on twitter
I’m so glad you’re going more about the Godskins and Blackflame, they’re def my favorite part of elden ring lore
Thanks my friend, defo one of my fave parts of the lore as well
Geoff, you continue to knock it out of the park. I have massive respect for your videos that reassess your own misconceptions and build on other's work. You're actually very inspirational, and I thank you for that.
genuinely blown away by that comment, It's so humbling to me to hear such kind words and get the support that I do. Thank you - made my day
Cheers Geoff!
Seconded
Love your stuff! Really went above and beyond with this one!
Wow! Thanks so much for the generosity Thomas!
Beautiful take on the gloam eyed queen!! I've never commented on a RUclips video before so you have to realize how amazing your video is! Gloam eyed queen has always been the character I've been interested in the most and you did it perfectly. Thank you for your beautiful content!!!!
technically, ranni only states that she, miquella, and malenia were the only _demigods_ who were Empyreans, but we have no reason to believe that there weren't non-demigod Empyreans at that time
true
They're Empyreans chosen by the Two Fingers. It's not too ridiculous to imagine other Outer Gods pick their own Empyreans to act as their worldly vessels.
@freedomofspeechenjoyer5443Nothing says you have to be a demi god to be chosen by the two fingers.
@Freedom of Speech Enjoyer would it be crazy to consider the Elden beast a form marika took to challenge us. Base of most of the agreed upon lore I find it very hard to believe that the greater will would challenge especially if we mean to continue on serving the greater will.
@@blacktigerpaw1 ehh, no. Cause yah know Malenia being the goddess of rot, and rot is referenced as an outer god.
If it can be assumed that all Empyreans had Shadows, it would be interesting to speculate on the identity of Malenia and Miquella's Shadows.
I know that this is just coincidence, but maliketh is the black blade. Ranni's shadow is named blaidd (i know it's pronounced differently) and malenia is known as miquella's blade. She is highly devoted to protecting him, so perhaps it could make sense that she volunteered to be his shadow.
@@avakinzerochillI was thinking the same, I feel like she and Miquella wouldn’t want any outside interference.
@@avakinzerochillfor some reason they pronounce it as "Blaeifv" as in the English word "blithe." Sort of fitting for their character isn't it?
We'd see them in the DLC probably
@@avakinzerochill It doesn't work like that tho. All Empyearens are given a shadow by the greater will do either something happened to there Shadows or maybe which would be funny due to there afflictions the greater will didn't recognize them as true Empyearens
It would be interesting if Eiglay was the Gloam Eyed Queens shadow bound beast. It could explain why some of the godskins have serpentine like features, similar to the current order where Marika's and Ranni's beast is more canine, and the bloodhound knights following in the same order.
I love the idea that the GEQ was in fact Marika's daughter. I get the impression that the Godskin rebellion was a real breaking moment for Marika's faith in the Greater Will. Knowing that your god essentially ordered your own daughter to kill her you would be an INCREDIBLY traumatic event, and would help explain not only Marika's rebellion but also her callous attitude towards her later children. Much easier to chuck your kids into a sewer forever if you know they might be given a divine mission to overthrow you!
I feel like the more we learn about this game the more nuanced Marika becomes as a character. Truly a larger-than-life tragic figure, who's done horrible things to crusade for her age and ensure her reign, but is ultimately so broken down by tragedy that she chooses to shatter it all and let the pieces fall where they may. Maybe all she really wanted was her own destined death.
Ooo I like this theory. People keep saying that Goldwyn the golden was Marika’s first child but maybe it was Melina
No. Marika specifically told her children become god or become a offering. She was into the process
Maybe Melina was conceived after Marika was imprisoned, which is why her womb was staked with destined death later. Then again I have no idea who staked her, apart from Maliketh, which could make sense (maybe his guilt doesn't only include failing to protect the rune of death).
One think seems clear, almost everyone is a relative to someone else. It was written by JRR after all, and Miyazaki also uses the similar historical model of nobility, even in opposition to one another being related by blood.
Most likely none of the theories are true as of yet since I think the connection isn't finalized by the writers, but they laid out the base to continue the story in whichever way they think best for the future. That's why nothing can truly be determined, and still you can make so many theories that are well supported by the game.
54:15 I don't believe Melina kept her identity secret. The most compelling argument for me about Melina being the Gloam Eyed Queen (or at least a personality / spirit ash / fragment of her) is something that theorists take for granted but often don't voice: and it is the visual narrative for her "I'll give you destined death" line. For this to happen you need to become the frenzied lord BEFORE she sacrifices herself to the Flame of Ruin or else this cutscene doesn't play (understandably) after the frenzied ending; this creates the next flow of events:
- Over our conversations with Melina along the game we learn that she disappears like a Spirit (like Spirit Ashes, like Torrent, or like Carian Puppets), that her memories are muddy, that she has some kind of intrinsic knowledge of Death (indiscriminate), and that she's trying to find her purpose.
- The tarnished becomes branded by the three fingers, giving him the "essence" to feed the Flame of Ruin in the Forge of Giants instead of using Melina's connection to fire (she's burned literally on her flesh and this cycles back to the flame of Death).
- Doing it transports us to the resting place of the Rune of Death, this Death being what will allow the Tree to burn and "truly die" in a way.
- After freeing the Rune of Death and achieving the Frenzied Flame ending, we see a changed Melina with both eyes open, her normal one milky, and the new one with a deep indigo hue and what's important, the bird talon-like tattoo over her eye gone and new Demeanor fueling her purpose. I think that freeing the Rune of Death without her dying in the process is what liberates her true nature too; the Demigods are embodiments of their domains, and when hers was freed so was her full self.
I believe that After the Rune of Death was sealed by Maliketh so was the true nature of The Gloam Eyed Queen, leaving us with Melina.
I love the idea that the Gloam Eyed Queen is to represent the natural death that is necessary to keep life in check, and if Melina is indeed that person then it shows a tacit acceptance by Marika of her mistakes. I do think the game could have benefitted from making things a bit more explicit regarding the player being sent to Farum Azula, and that you're there to restore death to the world and that the tree cannot burn without you doing so. (Also I wonder why the player and enemies continue to respawn after you kill Maliketh and unshackle the Rune of Death).
About your last point, I believe unshackling the Rune of Death is not enough to change the laws of the world, as that depends on the current order estabilished through the Elden Ring. As Marika removed the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring to establish the current order, you would have to put it back in if you wanted things to truly die.
The rune still isn't implemented into the natural order at that point. You have it, you could, theoretically, implement it at any point, to any foe, but only upon mending the elden ring is it placed back into the rules of the world.
@@grimerlin Should have read this before typing pretty much the exact same thing 😅
@@EpsilonXero If releasing the Rune of Death isn't enough to change the natural laws, then the Erdtree should not have been able to burn. Why is the Erdtree "lesser" in gravitas, than a simple wandering noble?
@@TheSuperRatt Okay, how about this, Ranni stole a fragment of it and was able to kill her body and Godwyn's soul using it. People didn't start dying around her. It didn't change the natural laws. Also, until it was stolen, Maliketh was holding it in an "unbound" state and still, the laws remained stable. HE was the only being able to permanently kill anything. When you get it, you're like pre-theft maliketh. The rune us needed to burn the erdtree, not it's implementation back into the natural order and, only then, when Melina comes in contact with it.
Let it be said, that SmoughTown has quickly become one of the leading sources of content for our famous Gaming series. Awesome work, yet again!
you humble me 🥺thanks so much
In his earlier vids he’s like “well gonna wrap up here this video is too long”. Too long? Sir there is no such thing. 😂
…I just realized something. Maliketh is the one who sealed Destined Death by sealing his sword inside his body. When he pulls out the sword, it’s through his HAND.
The mark sealing Melina’s gloam eye closed isn’t a bird’s talon or anything like that. It’s MALIKETH’S CLAWED HAND, literally the thing binding the power of the Rune of Death and thus Melina’s eye.
Holy shit ... This is canon now. Love the idea.
I’m glad you picked up that as well, well done fellow lore hunter
That’s sick tf
thought that was a common thing. but riddle is this, why does the eye mark have 3 fingers instead of 5 like maliketh has?
The claw marks on the beast eye also match up with Melina's eye mark.
I think the more obvious source of ash is the humongous dragon which attacked Leyndell and probably burned everything.
As for Melina, she could also be the daughter of the Gloam Eyed Queen. It would make a bit more sense, it would also explain why she wants to burn the Erdtree with such conviction (purpose given to her by her mother, who opposed Marika).
😮😮😮 that makes a lot sense
Melina is almost certainly Marika’s daughter, though.
@@yamnbam4346 I am pretty sure you are both right, as Melina is both the daughter of Marika and of the GEQ, as the GEQ was likely a face of Marika when the elden ring was still containing the death rune. In the alchimia principle, your main enemy is often yourself. Being a child of only one empyrean, she was naturally imperfect, born bodyless. Once the GEQ were defeated by Maliketh, i.e. when the death rune was sealed outside of the elden ring, Radagon took her place as the new strong personality. Melina was then half gold from Marika, and gloam from the GEQ.
I thought Melina is Rani? Is that not a thing anymore?
@@spacehootle309 that theorie has been disproven indeed. Ranni and Melina are both spectral beings so I get the confusion, but Ranni inhabits a doll made by Seluvis, the reason she's only half incorporated is still a mystery, probably just a design choice. Also wouldn't make sense for them to be the same, but both be part of a different ending.
Blows my mind how deep the lore is vs how complicated it is to put together in game. I have never heard these theories and yet they all make perfect sense.
Mentioning of how godskin apostle and noble appear through an incantation sigil, especially during Godskin Duo fight, made me wonder if it could be only 1 of each of them out there, making appearances alike to Morgott with his Margit appearances
This is without a doubt one of your best videos yet, and to see how far our understanding on the subjects of the Godskins and everything else mentioned, even the concept of the eerdtree being an illusion really makes the journey we've taken through the past year more enjoyable!
Thanks for your hard work Geoff!
Thanks so much Ross! Utterly humbled by the support the video is getting
Another potential connection between the Serpent and the Gloam Eyed Queen: The Man Serpents in Volcano Manor and the God Skin Apostles can strech out in the same way.
I find it fascinating how the Godskins and the GEQ have strong connections to both Mt. Gelmir and Farum Azula. The imagery of a Snake of Black Flames coiling the Ancient, corporeal, Erdtree is quite compelling to me. Also, obsidian is a volcanic glass and it would be a quite sophisticated twist to have the followers of a shedding snake to shed others of their skin and wear it. there is also the possibility of Eiglay being a descendant of the GEQ or a reincarnation, given the strong japanese symbolism of immortality in the skinshedding of Orochi...
The Godskins being tied to Farum Azula by searching the Rune of Death embedded in Gurranq is interesting, however I always wondered: Why does the power of the Godskins be strongest in the Dragon Temple of Farum Azula (strongest, given that they only can resurrect or summon each other there) ? I find it more compelling to have them tied to Farum Azula in a more direct way: I surmise that the GEQ is the former god of Farum Azula, depicted by the Statue under the primal Elden Ring with her three Shadowbound Beasts in the heart of its palace. I see her as the god who was fled when disaster struck and Placidusax started to wait for her return - a vengeful god who plotted the restoration of her former glory (probably in the Spiritcaller Cave) by birthing an army of Godskins, thus being chosen by the Fingers once more as an Empyrean. Following in the Godskin Apostacy, the Killing of numerous Demigods and the burning of the Ancient Erdtree, the End of the Age of Plenty and Malikeths fight with the GEQ, killing her, taking her beastly Eye and imbuing his Black Sword with the Power of her Godslaying Flame (thus sealing the 'true' power of the Godsylaer Greatsword. GG). This might also explain why the Godslayer Greatsword is so similar to the Sacred Relic Sword - both belong to a former god of the Greater Will...
I theorize that Marika kept a part of the GEQ in some way - maybe her soul. Because I don't suspect Melina to be the GEQ 100%. I tend to give her her own, distinct, Erdtree- and motherbound personality and think that she was created out of that remnant from the GEQ when Marika was already shackled inside the Erdtree after her shattering the ER. I see it as a last-ditched effort by Marika to free herself and to rebel against the Greater Will - Melina only was given the task to help or free her, but later she would ascertain that that would mean burning the Erdtree - at least she has some kind of experience with that. That would also tie in her connection to the Smoldering Butterflies and her name depicting a lineage from Marika and Radagon - both were one when Marika created her at the foot of the Erdtree. However, I doubt that Radagon had an active part in that - moreover once he took hold of their shared body again and saw what his other self did/birthed, he strung his own red hair to a spear and embedded it deep in his body, preventing the ringbound Marika to birth any more minions.
This to me also explains why Melina, as she says it, "sends us on our way" after burning the Erdtree - to Farum Azula, a place so long forgotten that only legends of an ancient palace in the skies survived to this day. She can send us there because to a degree it once was her home and kingdom. She knows the way and that we must go there. And if we do not fulfill her accord of the Kindling Maiden and she is denied that path, another part of her dominates, her sealed eye opens and the GEQ takes hold of the Maiden. Not to avenge us, but to simply deliver, what we aleady earned: Destined Death.
If you read this, thank you so much for taking the time ;)
So how did Alexander get there?
That's a really interesting theory. But some thing don't really line up. For example:
The GEQ is said to have been an Empyrean. If she wos the god of the Age of Dragons, then that wouldn't be the case.
The Godskin nobles and apostles seem to be artificial creations. And the only coherent theory as to how they were created, is that the GEQ was one of the Numen/Nox, whom we know to be very good at creating artificial life. So it would make much more sense if the GEQ/Melina, was Marikas daughter before the Numen were banished underground and when she was selected as an Empyrean, she and the other Numen created the Fingerslayer Blade to kill Melinas two fingers. And after they were banished underground, they created the Godslayer Greatsword and the Godskin Apostles the end Marikas age.
The great Serpent has no links with Farzm Azula as far as we know. And the only connection it has to the Godskins is that they disolay some snake-like features. Maybe the Seroent was involved in some other event prior to the Godskin Apostasy and the Nox simply built in sime snake-like traits into the Godskins when they created them. I don't know. I have no idea what ti make of the serpent honestly. And i have never seen any good theories about it.
I just had a crazy idea about the Serpent. What if the Serpent was the God of the Age of Dragons. Think about it. Snakes are said to be wingless dragons. Perhaps it even was a dragon at some point but devilved into a serpent over time. It might have had a human form like other dragons, which would explain the statue of the woman surrounded by wolves in Malikeths bossroom. If it gave the beasts their intelligence, then that would explain why the statue has her surrounded by a bunch of beasts. And when the Greater Will abandoned the dragons to create another order with Marika at the top, the serpent felt so betrayed that it ran away and hid in Mt.Gelmir. Now it wants to destroy the whole world to spite the Greater Will for abandoning it. It wants to devour all of creation. That's the seroents way to retaliate against the Greater Will. And to achieve this it helped the GEQ in her gial to destroy the gods, which failed of course, but now that most of the demigods are dead because of the shattering anyway, it influenced Rykard to do what he did as well.
@allfatherlloyd1941 Thank you for the input and your willingness to discuss :) Let me answer to your points in order and apply my perspective:
1. I find it completely plausible to be an Empyrean who becomes a god, lose that status whilst another god reigns (given that the title of god seems to go hand in hand with the title of ruler and queen, more than it implies a concrete, deific status, like the Outer Gods or The Greater Will - and The Elden Beast - seem to have) and then while striving to become a god once again get granted the title of Empyrean again. I find it a bit more likely that the GEQ was Queen Marikas rival when they both were Empyreans, also given that they seem to represent the two opposing sides of life and death. Adressing a former god as being an Empyrean once, seems unintuitive, although it would be technically correct (the best kind of correct, gnarh!). However, maybe a fallen god might be one of your best candidates for the next reign while Queen Marika yet covers that title - so why shouldn't The Greater Will choose a person who once ruled with an Elden Lord (Placidusax) as an Empyrean again?
If true, I would find that story to be a very interesting and compelling one - a being chosen as Empyrean, becoming god over Farum Azula, being fled from it and losing its deific status and secretly planning to get revenge, birthing an army of artificial lifeforms, once again being granted the chance to become a god and be reinstated - thus being an Empyrean once again (although ultimately failing and being slain by a big, black doggo, sadge). And this reinstitution of a formerly ruling god (or pantheon for that matter) after a period of strife and rule by another deity is not uncommon in historic cultures all over the world - like the brief period of Aton-Worship in ancient egypt, or the conflict of 'Asen' and 'Vanen' in germanic religion.
So, I think it totally can be the case to be an Emyprean while having been a former god of Farum Azula. If anything, this especially qualifies you as a proper prospect for the next rule as god ;)
2. The Numen and Nox have interesting, possible ties to the Godskin Apostacy - or any apostacy for that matter. And I agree that they certainly were experts in creating artificial life, given the Albinaurics and the Silver Tears plus all their variants. However, there is much more artificial life in the Lands between and I would find it highly unrealistic to throw all of them in the hands of the Nox. There are the Claymen of the ancient palaces, which seem to stem from a civilisation older than the arrival of the Numen; the Imps, Watchdogs and Golems; the Living Jars; Stone Cluster Caterpillars; maybe the Abductor Virgins, but then again, probably them are mere constructs, much like the Heroes Grave's Sentinels; the Crystalians; Schools of Graven Mages; even the Onyx and Alabaster Lords and other alien lifeforms. Melina herself could qualify as an artificial lifeform, possibly made by Queen Marika. Also, there are a lot of fringe cases, where the artificiality of their life/existence can at least be questioned - especially the Spirit-Caller Snails, which have an odd connection to the Godskins (they summon Godskins in the Spirit-Caller Cave which is where I surmise the QED to have started her plan to create the Godskins and plot her Apostacy). I like the story of the GEQ being a daughter of Marika which turned to the Nox/Numen Marikas cult itself sprang out of - a child of death from the goddess of life, to later challenge her mother over her reign (it's not a phase mom, it's who I really am!). But I can't say that I would claim it to make more sense than the GEQ being proficient in creating/birthing artificial life out of the residual power/knowledge from her rescinded goodhood. Both stories give the GEQ the means and the motive to form an army of Godslayers and go against the rule of the Erdtree - thus qualifying herself as an Empyrean - but the pure fact that the Godskins are supposed artificial lifeforms is not evident enough for me to tie her strictly to the Nox and Numen.
3. I really liked Tarnished Archaeologists video about the Serpent (Eiglay and maybe her progenitor?) ruclips.net/video/D0AQzqx3Epw/видео.html - and I based a lot of my thinking on his theory about the theme of Paganism, adversity to the motif of the snake on traitorous gladiators, etc. and the supposed first burning of the Erdtree. Which is why I find it so plausible to tie the Snake with the GEQ (that went so far as that I once thought about the GEQ herself to have been a snake, birthing humanoid creatures, like an inverse to Eiglay and the Serpent Men - but I really had to stop myself there^^) - to bring the symbology of the snake strangling the Erdtree and the burning of the Erdtree together - the ashheaps in Leyndell, the Erdtree becoming more an object of faith and throwing out seeds for the Minor Erdtrees (not the Illusory Seeds later at the Shattering), which was believed to never be possible - in this image of the Gloam Eyed Queen wrapping the Erdtree in black flames, burning with it and being felled by Maliketh, earning his Black Blade through that means (the Black Blade incantation has the old physical Erdtree of Abundance as background, incinuating it was created before the burning of it - maybe just moments before that). All circumstantial evidence, I know - I liked to tie that to Melina being burned and bodyless and knowing how to burn the Erdtree - a part of her had done that before - and knowing the way to Farum Azula - because she once ruled there.
The Godskins have more connections to Eiglay or the Serpent of Volcano Manor than just their tails. A Godskin Noble even went there and protects the shed snakeskin on the Altar there. And he probably found ample opportunity to flay more skins in the dungeons of the Manor. This Noble not only protects the leftover skin of a god, but also the Serpent's Amniom - a birthing device for snake'esque, humanoid beings like Raya and the other Snake-Men (now isn't that a curious connection, maybe?). Maybe the Godskin Noble simply likes skin and fell in love with a being that lays down its skin from time to time - felt a connection to the worship of the snake skin - or felt some familiarity with the godeating snake. Maybe the Noble stayed true to an old alliance of paganistic heretics and Godslayers of a vengeful Queen, who went on to burn the Erdtree, reducing it to a mere golden illusion of Grace and belief. It certainly is allied with Eiglay/Rykard/The Volcano Manor out of some reason - or protects the snakeskin/Serpent's Amniom out of a reasonable volition, maybe a sense of duty or opportunism. It's a rather strong connection, I believe.
The Great Serpent does not have direct ties to Farum Azula, I agree. But the Godskins have - a strong one at that!
The timeline is overall so hard to patch together that I can't be sure of an alliance between the GEQ and the Serpent. It may have been disjunct events, maybe the first burning of the Erdtree has nothing to do with the Godskin Apostacy or a supposed Pagan uprising from Mt. Gelmir, a betrayal of the Snake. Maybe the Snake is reviled and symbolically killed over and over again in gladiatory combat out of other reasons, maybe Melinas instinct and knowledge of Farum Azula and how to burn the Erdtree come from somewhere else. But I think the connections I tried to lay out here to be quite curious. And I really enjoy discussing those :)
If this answer seems rather rebuttal'y to you, I want to apologize - I do enjoy being challenged on these aspects and I know that there are some more outlandish takes I bring forth. I see all of this discourse as a constructive means to not only find the most probable truth, but also the most interesting stories and ideas - from this seedbed sprout the most intriguing new worlds and concepts, I believe. It's not always easy to properly adress all minuscule details, lore snippets and connections I have in the back of my mind - which bring me to the conclusion I stated here - given the medium of text and comment... But I hope I have adressed your points of concern satisfactory - and hopefully inspired you to even more ideas and criticism ;)
\[T]/ Praise the Lore! \[T]/
This is easily the most well presented and pleasant to the ears lore channel I've encountered so far. I honestly have zero criticisms. So much of Elden Ring lore is interconnected so it's very appreciated that you lay things out in a way that can be understood even if we didn't watch your videos on the related topics. I dread the day i reach the end of your playlist.
Geoff, my brother in the shadow of the Erdtree, thank you SO much for what you do. Banger after banger of insightful, well made-with-love videos, with so much attention to detail and care for accuracy, all wrapped up in a bow of recognizing and appreciating your fellow content creators, showing your passion for this community and the creators within it. You really are a special type of RUclipsr, my friend, please don't ever change. You deserve so much more recognition than you get, and I'm stoked to, in some way, accompany you on your journey through the RUclips nightmare.
Much love man, thanks again.
🐐
Baaaa. You masterful G.O.A.T.
Legend, thank you so much for your kind words and support as always. I am really pleased you enjoyed this one - I really love this subject. I wont ever change :) and I am always grateful for your kind words my friend.
Your videos are my favorite in the Elden Ring RUclips sphere. Thank you for putting out such incredible deep-dives into the lore of Elden Ring, and providing your perspective!
Cheers my friend, I am just so grateful for the support and kindness I get
Your videos have always been so interesting and they also made me aware of Tarnished Archaeologist who, I’m sure you’d agree, produces theories and describes the story of the Lands Between in ways that I can’t even begin to explain how brilliant it is. TA and yourself (along with Vaati and Quelaag and many others) have done such incredible work for ER’s lore
Smough and TA compliment each other really well. Easily my two favorite RUclips channels right now
Couldn’t agree more - TA is a vanguard of lore theory and I’m so happy you found them through my content!
The tarnished archaeologist finally getting shoutouts and attention he deserves. Beautiful videos by him.
In the beginning of the video you mention Ranni's omission of the gloam eyed queen. However the quote that you reference starts off with "Of the demigods..." so personally (and I could be wrong here, this is just speculation) I believe that the omission was due to the gloam eyed queen NOT being a demigod, and not in reference to them taking place during separate time periods. So this would mean that empereans could be selected amongst mere mortals. So the quote from Ranni saying "Of the demigods, only I, Miquella, and Malenia could claim that title" would still be true.
It could also be that she didn't know about the Gloam Eyed Queen. She is a pretty inconvenient bit of information for Marika, having wielded the power of Destined Death and being able to slay gods... The Godskins aren't really acknowledged by any character in the game as a faction, not even in passing so there could be some suppression of their history going on
Thank you! I was thinking this is an obvious oversight of SmoughTown. Hard to take any theories seriously when the first step has such a mistake
Or she could have been an earlier child of Marika, before she became a god.
@@Papuaani With lore as convoluted as this, it's easy to make mistakes here and there.
One of the things I love best in your videos, is that you always thank your fellow lore seekers. If you use someone else's idea as a jumping off point, you make sure to show a link to the video that inspired the point, helping out channels with less subscribers. It's the mark of someone who cares about community, not just excellent content.
Edit: Also just, thanks. These have to take forever to research and put together. And your lore videos are why I downloaded Elden Ring.
Thanks so much Phil - the community is just full of talent and I am so grateful for all the work they do!
Thank you so much for the kind words. Your support means the world
Wonderful work. I think this in conjunction with Tarnished Archaelogist’s work puts the Gloam Eye Queen in such a unique place lore wise.
man, your videos are always a treat. A lot of content struggles to keep my attention nowadays but I can easily sit through one of your videos and be interested the entire time. I adore this game and all the lore it has to offer so having people like you that clearly care so much about it making this content never ceases to make my day :)
That genuinely means so much to hear, because I sometimes doubt myself haha. Thank you for your support
Another interpretation of the serpent climbing the tree in the key mentioned at 47:50 is the Qabbalistic/Kabbalistic tree of life where the symbolism for climbing the tree to attain complete understanding and enlightenment, to become one with and aware of the Godhead, is a serpent climbing a tree. While the way down, the creation of reality by the Godhead, is a lightning bolt casting down. So it could imply that the Gloam-Eyed Queen desired absolute knowledge and a pursuit of the truth of the Elden Ring's power, or to commune with the Greater Will directly. Or to kill it. Just a thought.
We know basically nothing, and you make a almost 2h video about it. Love it
😂
I already love playing Elden Ring but your Lore videos make this game that much better. Elden Ring has such a good storyline.
Regarding the 7 faces on the robes of the godskin nobles: It might just be a numerical coincidence, but there exactly seven walking mausoleums housing the soulless remains of demigods.
There's one thing that has always fascinated me about the Godskin Prayerbook and Godslayer Seal. They're in the kitchen. Not a trophy room (like the Veil) or anywhere one might keep something that precious. It suggests to me, in my mind, that it was Gostoc (or another servant) who had it tucked away, perhaps to use against Godrick. It's possible it was in Godrick's possession first before possibly being stolen by Gostoc (who actually steals in-game, by the way).
If I wanted to slay my demigod kin, I'd have the tool itself on me or close by.
I think it points to the idea that the Godskin cult and their ideology is, at it's core, an ideology in service to the "meek" and common. Which makes a certain logic, considering that the GEQ and the Godskins find the immortality of the gods abhorrent.
While watching this, it made me wonder about that eye that you get from Gurranq that resembles melina's blue eye. Do you think it's possible that when Maliketh defeated the gloam-eyed queen, that he took one of her eyes and sealed the other? Especially since Melina only has one blue eye in the frenzied flame ending and the other appears to be blind?
I think there is some relation to Ranni there, seeing as Ranni's doll has a blue eye opposite Melina's eye.
It is odd that Ranni gives us a fake name at the start, and we also happen to meet her right around when we meet Melina.
I love the theory that Ranni is the gloam-eyed queens protégé, and that her an Miquella didn't mean to kill Godrick, but rather, meant to kill Marika. This was a test to see if a soul could be detached from the body, and if their curses could be shirked. Unfortunately Marika was missing, but the ritual had began and someone had to die. We do find a Black Knife assassin outside Marika's bedchamber.
The theory gets very wacky in that our tarnished is Miquella reborn into an Albinauric husk. Sure we don't bleed silver, but maybe our husk is the first successful attempt. One of the race descriptions in the starting menu states that the race 'used to bleed silver.' People seem to oddly trust us, just as Miquella had a gift of being trusted by most people. Melina was there when we were awoken, but Ranni mentions that Torrent was the one who found us, and that his prior owner wanted Torrent's choice to recieve his calling bell. In the teaser image for the DLC we see a person with long blonde hair sitting astride torrent. It may be Marika, but it may also be Miquella.
We know Miquella wanted to tear down the order which had shunned and his brothers and ripped apart his family. His Halig tree wasn't successful, but maybe he was able to implant his curse into it. It did stop growing, just as Miquella curse should entail. We know he was interested in and experimenting on Albinaurics, as we find them all over his tree. Maybe he wanted to build a new body for himself once he could shirk his curse.
They seem to think of him as their God. This may be why Mohg has been able to recruit his own army of them using Miquella's body as a symbol. Some people say his body is asleep since we see the arm move, but we only see the arm move when Mohg is inside of the cocoon with him. I bet he is manipulating the corpse to make the Albinaurics *think* he is alive, so that they will serve in his army and serve his ambitions.
Mohg would have us believe that Miquella ran away with him, but we have no reason to trust that. He's trying to do incest with his underdeveloped femmeebride boy. I can't remember which item, but the description states that the Halig tree was broken into and someone absconded with the cocoon. That implies Mohg stole it. Also, if Miquella was asleep, how could he consent to that lol.
The biggest point against Miquella being alive is that he does not bleed. His body looks dead and decayed. When you hit his arm poking through the cocoon there is no blood. When you find the living crucified beings around the world and hit them, they bleed. If you smack the living fingers, they bleed. If you smack the dead fingers, they don't bleed. This makes it clear to me that whatever is in the cocoon is not alive anymore.
I love your deep dives and how you consider not only your own thoughts but those of others while mentioning them and linking their videos. It's a wonder how big the lore community has gotten and in many cases everyone is kind of just doing their own thing so there's no wasted time checking out everybody's content.
One of my favorite parts of Elden Ring too. Can't wait to watch the whole video and catch your findings and theorizing!
Thank you so much! Yeah I absolutely love this part of the lore
@@SmoughTown agreed! So far, your section on the GEQ was awesome and spot on with what I've been theorizing for a long time now. Even though Fromsoft loves mystery and cryptic lore, they do also put in big clues and reveals for those who have done the digging.
That's what I think is going on with the Frenzied Flame ending. It's meant to be a "Wow!" moment for those who paid attention to Godskin items along the way.
So well presented and argued as always, Smough!
I 100% knew melina’s identity but I didn’t realise how explicit it was. Top tier content, well worth the wait
Thank you my friend! Really glad you enjoyed
She could very well be the Gloam Eyed Queen's daughter, which would make a bit more sense. She has a purpose given to her by her mother, she has the same relations to the same magic, has her eye color, etc.
It's less of a stretch to say she was burned when the erdtree was burned, while her mother actually died by the hand of Maliketh. On top of this, she is so, so very young looking, it would make less sense for her to be the Gloam Eyed Queen.
To add to this, Ranni's body is completely charred, while Melina's is basically fine, except for some scars. It does not look like the same thing.
We should also keep in mind the fact that Ranni not dying completely is because the death was split between her and Godwyin, each one of them dying in some form. There are sign of this (the half centipede mark), etc. There is no such indication for Melina, it would make more sense that GEQ died that day and Melina is her daughter.
@@scviper Wait. Where did we see Melina’s true body? I know Ranni inhabits a doll, and her real body is at the top of the divine tower in Liurnia charred black, but I only recall seeing Melina in the spiritual body she uses to travel with the Tarnished. Did I miss something, or are you basing that off the appearance of her projection with the burn scars on her hands?
@@blackhat4206 he meant rannis body on the top bro.
@@juliushall8499 They said Melina’s body was basically fine, but all we see is her in some kind of spirit form. Who’s to say that’s how she would look if she had her body? I don’t recall ever seeing a body, like we did with Ranni.
Well done! I hadn’t considered that Melina’s eye is sealed shut in parallel with the bound Rune of Death. I had thought Melina could be the Queen before, but this detail might set that idea in stone for me.
Great video! Thank you for making it.
Been a sub since the godskin video a year ago so it's nice that it's come full circle. Excited to see what you cover next, and what new situations the Albinauric Blood clot will be relevant. You seem like such a genuine dude and I really appreciate that.
Thank you so much my friend, so much has changed since then and I am really grateful to have such kind and long term support like yours
The “a quick vibe check” line with the village always puts me in stitches.
It's really incredible to see so many great ER lore videos coming out, and you, SmoughTown are among the best. I always look forward to more of your content and was waiting for this video to release after you first announced it.
Really appreciate that. So grateful for support like yours
I've been waiting for her story for so long, your past lore videos have hyped this spooky outer God up
Another banger
This man just will not miss
Hell yes Smough! I feel very fortunate to have you make an almost 2 hour long video about the aspect of the lore that immediately impacted me. As I uncovered more and more lore through item descriptions my first character turned from an Irina the Bloody Crow cosplay into a gloam eyed queen that I would finish 5 cycles as! Thank you sire, much love from the US
...imagine my surprise when I'm finishing the game for the first time as lord of frenzy and Melina opens her other eye and swear vengeance upon me.
It's almost incomprehensible how amazing Eugenia is. Such an incredible artist
Thank you SO MUCH for putting out amazing videos every time you upload. Always worth a wait to see what masterpiece you put together!
My pleasure Garrett - super grateful for the kind words and support
LETS GO BEEN WAITING FOR THIS ONE. Love every single one of these lore videos. These videos are perfect to listen to while I work
Thats honestly amazing to hear. I am super grateful for that level of support
I'm gonna load some firewood into a wheelbarrow to this video later
The Gloam-Eyed Queen one character I have always wanted to learn more about I hope that the DLC adds more lore about the Godskins they are one of the most facinitaying factions in Elden Ring, Love the content Smough keep up the great work always love listening to your videos when I am working
One of my fave subjects as well! Thank you so much for the kind words - really nice to hear you enjoy my videos while working. Hope you enjoy this one
For me, the most coherent story is Melina being both the daughter of Marika and of the GEQ, as the GEQ was likely a face of Marika when the elden ring was still containing the death rune. In the alchimia principle, your main enemy is often yourself. Being a child of only one empyrean, she was naturally imperfect, born bodyless. Once the GEQ were defeated by Maliketh, i.e. when the death rune was sealed outside of the elden ring, Radagon took her place as the new strong personality. Melina was then half gold from Marika, and gloam from the GEQ.
the connection between the unleashing of the rune of death and the reappearnce of the gloam eyed queen in the only ending where she did not sacrifice herself was brilliant. The only point left that is still a bit confusing to me is why melina figths using erdtree incantations and not using black flame incantation when we summon her.
Could simply be because at the time of the Morgott fight, Maliketh was still sealing the power of destined death so she couldn’t.
@@blackhat4206but the apostles use black flame incantations so that can't be plausible
@cosseybomb Where else did Maliketh gain the ability, if not the Gloam Eyed Queen? Destined Death was her power until Maliketh took the Rune of Death and defeated her, which made the Balck Flame lose the power it once held. There is too much mystery behind her, though, for me to be too sure about any more than that.
Another incredible video, Geoff! Definitely one of the most interesting characters in the game in my opinion, and you did her justice aplenty!
Thank you Andrea! So pleased you feel I did it justice!
I always find myself anxiously awaiting another one of your videos. Once again an excellent watch, really love your content.
Thank you so much Hannah - really pleased you enjoyed it and more to come soon!
I’m just getting into the souls series and this channel is a huge landmark on my journey, some of the highest quality content I’ve found on the platform
Im so excited to see this show up! Amazing work as usual, this had brought up more evidence i saw but never connected and im happy to hear it explained!
I always figured the Gloam Eyed Queen was Melina, given her black eye and obsession with Destined Death in the 'Lord of Chaos' ending. Excited to learn more about it!
This and everything regarding the frenzied flame are my favorite parts of the lore. Currently doing a godflame/gloam eye character build playthrough.
It never really hit me until now that the Tarnished just hangs out with the Gloam-Eyed Queen throughout the journey. I wonder if all Melina is is GEQ just without her power and memories(as in same personality or values). Even if motivations are different, she ends up doing the same thing, just sacrificing herself in the process as Melina. Your closest ally was Marika’s closest enemy, then ally.
It’s pretty funny to get ads for skin care products during this video
Thank you so much for all these long videos. Helping me get through the work days while awaiting the DLC.
Excellent video, love having all the lore stitched together in one place 🌌👁👸🏻
I do hope for a future DLC we get to fight a newly appointed Godskin Queen or King who bends with all of the Gods the previous Godskins have killed. Like the Demon Prince from DS3.
I wanna fight the gloam eyes queen, it would be an awesome fight.
I wish they had more endings with Malina, and her reaction to the new ages you choose to bring about.
Naturally most people wouldn't see them on a first play-through, requiring that you ally with frenzy, only to abandon it in favor of another path. Still would have been nice.
Super interesting the idea that the Gloam-Eyed Queen was aided by a serpent to create the Godskin apostles and rebel against Marika. With new info from the DLC, we have confidence that Melina is the younger sister of Messmer. Both siblings share a vision of fire, and Messmer himself is one with the abyssal serpent. It adds even more to the huge stack of circumstantial evidence that Melina is the GEQ and lines up nicely with the theory
I've been liking the thought of one of Marika's early children becoming the gloam-eyed queen more and more! Like Melina. ((The drama of that kind of betrayal is delicious of course.)) Maybe this child of Marika saw the age of plenty end, or fore-saw it, and the issues with her Golden Order even way back then. Issues I think were aplenty even without Destined Death sealed yet. That's kind of Marika's/the Golden Order's THING lol. Maybe this child wanted to address this state of affairs by following their Empyrean path?
Marika also has the power to completely expunge the record of that demigod child's name, temples, following, etc. 'Gloam-eyed Queen' really has 'Nameless King' vibes for me from DS. The gloam-eyed queen being an early child of Marika would also help the current npc's in-game not really have much memory of her.
I personally do think the black-flame of destined death is what first burned the Erdtree. Either the GE queen managed it before Maliketh defeated her or, upon death, she burned the Erdtree in defeat. (Kindling maiden vibes and all that.) If her defeat meant the instant-defanging of Destined Death's black flame though; maybe that's why the first burning didn't entirely succeed and the faith-based Erdtree was able to persist?
If it was Melina, how messed up Marika's actions likely were! To have re-birthed her defeated child from the Erdtree (or with Radagon) in the final hour? Or maybe she always kept the GE queen's spirit alive and imprisoned? Man, I love the Gloam-Eyed mystery in Elden Ring so much. It's so fun to theorize about.
The Gloam Eyed Queen was the bit of lore that really drug me under into being obsessed with the story this game tells and alludes to. I did the frenzied flame ending my first playthrough of the game and the ending cutscene with Melina was so intriguing to me which led me to my first theory that Melina is the GEQ (don’t think that anymore) but I really just dug through every item description available and became obsessed with the one empyrean who we know almost nothing about (in terms of like when she existed and who she actually is)
EDIT: I typed this reply out before finishing the video (about an hour in) so if anything I said was touched on, I apologize for being repetitive
I personally believe that Melina is not the Gloam Eyed Queen, but I also don't have a real answer as to who the GEQ or Melina are should they not be the same person. With Melina, the dialogue about Boc: "Does being born of a mother... Mean one behaves in such a manner?" is interesting as I think it could be referring to Melina being birthed from droplets in the Erdtree during the Age of Plenty (as TA alluded in his videos) which could have interesting implications as to what occurs inside the Erdtree to form life. I say this in reference to her stating that she was given a purpose by her mother inside the Erdtree, what if she was literally inside the Erdtree and her mother is something is the Erdtree itself or maybe the Greater Will itself. My last point in this line of thought is, I believe, the most interesting and possible "original idea" (I'm sure someone else has said this at some point), but what if Melina was being birthed from the Erdtree as a droplet during the Age of Plenty but as her birth was occurring, the Erdtree was burned (either for the first time or one of the previous times) which would explain why she is "burned and bodyless" if she was never actually birthed into a physical body. This could also piece together why she uses the Age of Plenty symbol in her incantations. It could also explain why the one thing she will not standby and allow us to do is become the Lord of Chaos; if the Erdtree or the Greater Will is some sort of mother to her, the only ending that would be specifically forbade would be the one that leaves Order behind.
The other thought I had was that she was not born from a mother, as she stated, but instead was born from an artificial birth akin to the Godskins. Could she be the artificial daughter of the GEQ? Who knows, I'm just here to throw out theories I think have SOME basis in what we know while trying to go out on a limb.
@@wollins7244 In game her powers are sealed away. If you kill Meliketh and Melina is still alive she gets her powers back. She talks about Destined Death more than any other character and that eye is definitely Gloam. Not to say that you're wrong for your theory. But the game itself hints way more to her being the Gloam eyed queen. Her new look, her dialog. The timing of when her powers return. If anything maybe her memories where lost after she got beat by Meliketh.
@@wollins7244
Doesn't Ranni's route leave the order behind, too? Wouldn't she want to stop us from going with it? She also didn't try to convince you not to do Dungeaters ending, which is also very bad for the tree.
Could GeQ be the one that trained Ranni? There's this constant reference to a witch, also how did Ranni know she could split herself into a doll form. I'm convinced she learned it from GeQ, and that Melina is just the GeQ puppet body. Also Melina has burn scars similar to Ranni's original body. And this has further implications about why The Godskin Noble guards her body on the bridge. Not that it was drawn to the Rune of Death but that it was to guard the secret of the body, also it seems odd that Iji is covered in Black Flame when you find him dead despite the dead assassins. I think we were given the run around by Melina, I don't think Melina is just Melina, but a puppet body. The way we were puppeted by her in the first place to become Elden Lord, by killing Maliketh we undid the seal binding Melinas eye. Melina's sacrifice just seems so artificial and doesn't bother her in the least. It doesn't make sense unless her spirit can just house another body.. like a puppet and the only person we've seen do this is Ranni. Who learned this technique from a banished witch, who told her what to do, to assassinate Godfrey.. it all links back together if you consider both Ranni and yourself pawns in a much larger bigger game spanning thousands of years. It's my belief Maliketh defeated GeQ but didn't kill her, took her Rune of Death for Marika, and the cursed witch went off into the world and joined the Carian House, finding an Empyrean that would rebel and sowing the seeds of discord to get back to their original power. Very witch like to do. A classic tale.. I think GeQ was Marikas sister, one representing Death and the other Life. And Marika is truly the one at fault.. although something does feel funny with Maliketh's quote. "Marika, is this what it is to Sin?" Why did Marika curse Maliketh.. unless the plot carried out against GeQ was not by Marika's design but by Maliketh acting of his own accord, all of the shadows seem to have this fixation, this overzealous need to protect. I think Maliketh defeated GeQ but out of a crazed need to protect Marika and not by design. That is why he is cursed, and Marika lives in a perpetual state of shame unable to accept anyone but herself. Similar to two other twins who's love hurt the Greater Will. It's a repeating circle if we take a step back, and the Rune of Death is meant to be free.
The Gloam eyed Queen wanted to prevent immorality as that is how life is. I hope we get to see a Gloam eyed Queen dlc in the future.
Probably not unfortunately she’s kind of the velka figure of elden ring 😢
Weird, though, that people seem to keep on living in the Lands Between unless they're murdered. The malice in the Godskinners' practices also suggests that this isn't a mere cycle of life faction either.
@@nightscout9979 We have no way of knowing if the modern Godskin cult's actions are indicative of how they acted in the past, when their flames burned with Destined Death and they were under the rule of the GEQ. Looking at the state in which something exists NOW and saying that's how it's ALWAYS been, is a dangerous misstep. One could say then, that Leyndell and the Lands Between have always been in ruins, even during Marika's Age of Plenty; or that Marika has always been a god just because she is now. We know that's not true, but that exposes the fallacy of such logic.
Imo the Beast Eye is Gurranq's own eye, besides it's name is a bit straight forward, the purple-ish color is also very similar to Blaidd's eyecolor who is the same kind of being as Gurranq.
It resonates with deathroot wich contains the fragments of the Rune of Death, wich is as of know housed in Gurranq's body, so it would make sense for it to detect them.
Also his character model doesn't have eyes under the hood or armor. (wich is to be fair if you make a character model and don't plan to show it's eyes, you probably wouldn't bother making one.)
And Melina still has an eyeball in the cutscene, if it would be closed or had an empty socket I would lean a bit more believing that the Beast Eye is her's.
Also as a side note, why would Malekith take her eye and keep it for who knowh how many thousands of years and accidentally finding a use for it.
To be fair, she could have taken it from the player. We know that Torrent’s whistle is left behind, so our other belongings could have been as well. If the player never had the eye, Melina could have taken it from Maliketh, as he is dead by the ending.
Still, you could be right. With the beasts being associated with stone craft and the eye being made of stone, it very well could be an invention of Farum Azula. Others have said that it could be Marika’s eye, as her flesh is stone and is missing an eye.
In the end, I hope with the lore from the expansion that we get more info on all of this.
@@jackweaver1846 I would exclude Marika from the list, becuse she was in the tree since she shattered the ring , I doubt Malekith could have just strolled in and take an eye.
And I forgot to add that Gurranq seemingly has two servants, us and D. So for an eye for the both of us would make sense, since D is also "weeding" deathroot.
But yeah, I suspect the expansion will have some heavy death themes, wich might clarify some things.
@dantoki Oh I definitely don’t think it’s Marika. I was just saying that some people do.
On the topic of Melina being a potential candidate to be the gloam eyed queen, in the DLC we learn that there’s a connection between Mesmer and Melina. Messmer’s flame is both red and black, so there would be a possibility that Melina’s flame could also be imbued with black as well.
Im so happy that you commented this. I was just about to bring that up. W comment right here
Thanks!
The more I think about the Outer Gods as "kami" and the Greater Will as something else entirely, the more I start thinking the Greater Will isn't some sort of cosmic outside force or an eldritch god or something. My current theory is that the Greater Will is more of ... a collective consciousness. It struck me when you said something along the lines of "the Greater Will just wants /an/ order, it doesn't necissairly care which form that order takes." Sounds like the collective consciousness of man in the world of Elden Ring. A nebulous, formless, untouchable force pleading for order in the world; it would make sense as to why albinauracs and other "unnatural" things may seem impure; they may not have a connection to the Greater Will itself giving them a bit of a "blank" effect like the Sisters of Silence from Warhammer, though muted. Maybe Omens as well. Just a rough theory.
A great video. I am personally the theory that Melina isn't the daughter of Marika in the usual sense, rather that after her death at the hands of Maliketh. Marika perhaps took her soul and had her rebirthed within the Erd Tree. Given Marika had plans to betray the Erd Tree and the Greater Will, a powerful being like the Gloam-Eyed Queen would be a powerful tool to use in her plans if the Queen could be controlled of course. This seems to make the most sense as Melina seems to be a secret being that the rest are not aware of and the amount of secrets she is privy to compared to Marika's own flesh and blood.
But then, why would Melina have Torrent, whose former master is Miquella?
If Melina is the GEQ I wonder why/how she forgot her purpose and why she no longer pursues the fall of the gods
Because they have been killed, only when you let the chaos god consume you does she reawaken to her purpose. Probably something like that. Shabiri is that God.
Her physical form was destroyed, and memories are stored in the brain. It's also totally possible that she was manipulating us all along.
Doesnt she seek to kill you once you become the lord of the frenzied flame? She has a gift of Destined Death..?
@@halcyon6098 She reawakens as the glum eyed queen when you do, though if you use the golden needle she will no longer hunt you down, though she will no longer talk to you. Honestly the best option to save her.
While many people want a Miquella ending, I've always wanted a GEQ ending. You could reawaken all of Melina's memories, find a different way to the rune of death, and then burn the Erdtree in black flame! Melina becomes the new god, and you her Elden Lord.
Right now I'm doing a Vargram cosplay playthrough, so it's been on my mind.
I haven't played a single moment of Elden Ring, your videos are still the perfect content for my runs :). This one was especially satisfying.
3:00 wrong you are omitting the important part in between. "OF THE DEMIGODS" she says. They go out of their way to have her say that among her siblings and half siblings only those few were selected as empyreans. It is possible that she was not aware fully of the gloam eyed queen being selected as an empyrean or perhaps she was intentionally omitting her and other potential empyreans from being known by stating that she was specifically talking about amongst the demigod children.
Again, thank you so much for making these! I'm listened to them all at least 2 times! Would love to see you re-do some of your older videos, especially the Miquella one since I find him 1 of the most interesting characters in the game but your ideas about the lore has changed significantly since! Even if it's just a smaller update on some of your older videos that'd be awesome.. and them being smaller updates you could mb do them in between your longer videos. Always can't wait for your next video to come out! You're the best ER lore creator by far imo! ❤
Also on this video subject, I definitely think it's Melina as well.. I just don't think the developers with the Frenzy Flame ending leaving such an amazing cutscene like that would do it without it having important lore implications.. I feel like that is just 1 of the strongest indicators for me, I think it's meant to be a big reveal.. then you add in all the little pieces of lore you detailed in the video. It just fits so well together imo, but the cutscene just is kind of the clincher for me.. having that 1 eye sealed all game just to reveal her "gloam eye"
I'd also add that since the Erdtree has been burned before, maybe Melina's burn scars are from burning the Erdtree in the past? Could be another reason other than her punishment