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Messmer & The Abyssal Serpent | Elden Ring Lore
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- Опубликовано: 15 авг 2024
- Check out my Elden Ring lore book, Grace Given, here: www.tuneandfai...
Shadow of the Erdtree introduced Messmer; another Demi-God child of Marika and one who has been long forgotten by the Lands Between. Yet Messmer's lore is very rich and can tell us a lot about Leyndell, Marika and the history of Erdtree rule. In this story explained video, we will discuss Messmer's history and the Abyssal Serpent, the latter of which brings the concept of Light and Dark to the forefront of Elden Ring's Lore.
Intro: 0:00
Sponsor - Me: 2:02
Son of Marika: 2:46
Abyssal Serpent: 16:28
HELP ME: 25:06
Gold & Shadow: 25:11
Base Serpent Messmer: 32:46
The Crusade: 48:20
Messmer's Retinue: 1:04:48
Abandoned: 1:25:01
From the Bandai Namco Website: Guided by Miquella, players embark on a new adventure into the Land of Shadow, a world full of dark secrets hidden behind the prosperity of the Golden Order brought upon by Marika.
Editor: Creators Studio - creatorsstudio...
Thumbnail Commission by Shimhaq: x.com/shimhaq
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REFERENCES
Max Derrat's Video on Abyssal Serpent: • The Occult Secrets in ...
Last Protagonist: / @lastprotagonist
Shout out to Liam_Hawes for the observation re the Sealing Tree
BonfireVN - Messmer's Serpent Form: • Messmer's Serpent Form
TimDiggity's Video on the GEQ: • The Gloam Eyed Queen i...
Tarnished Archaeologist's Video re Serpents: • The Serpent and The Er...
messy hair's tweet about the Serpent Skin: x.com/badhaird...
Podcast with Ratatoskr: • Elden Ring Lore With S...
Fever's Tweet on Messmer: x.com/Hakarisf...
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Soundtrack is Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, Sekiro, King's Field and Elden Ring
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![Shadow of The Erdtree | Story & Ending Explained [Lore]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/StWOECzhSik/mqdefault.jpg)
Thank you everyone for watching my take on Messmer - Let me know your thoughts below.
Check out my Elden Ring lore book here: www.tuneandfairweather.com/collections/grace-given-the-mythology-of-elden-ring
I'm sorry, but this looks to be way overpriced for me. Will stay a fan of your lore videos though.
@@wardgoovaerts3922 Understood my friend - thank you so much for being here!
No way even if he is the best fight in the Dlc fighting Prime Radhan that ascended to godhood was a fantastic idea and fight.
did you notice that the eye his snake inspects us with is the left eye? this is the eye of messmer that we never get to see. I am thinking how this comes to be, has he closed his eye to shield himself from this ´´vision´´ of fire and is now comprehending his blindness by using the snakes.
Do you think you might do a video that mentions the new lore connection between the Crucible and Omens/Hornsent with the Giants?
Considering the "Talisman of all Crucibles", which item desc. reads:
_"A giant mass of intermingling Crucible attributes. Reduces damage taken from critical hits and head shots and improves the effectiveness of rolling and backstepping, but also increases damage taken at all times. _*_Rumored to have sprouted upon giants and is known as the "mother of Crucibles" in ancient tower lore."_*
Combined the Furnace Golems and their visages - both the appearance and description of the collectable ones*, and the appearance of the ones on their hips - It's very interesting to this new connection to the Giants, the Omens, and the Crucible, and I would love to hear you tackle it.
_*"A smaller imitation of the furnace golem's visage. Material used for crafting items. Exceedingly rare to find. A stone mask surrounded by curled horns, depicting the fell god of fire that haunts the sagas of the hornsent."_
===
Another thing to note is that, as you have made the note about Messmer's flame both being used for resurrection and able to destroy the soul, that there is _another_ flame in the DLC that can destroy the soul: The Frenzied Flame.
Surging Frenzied Flame item description reads:
_“Spirits are eternal, and yet frenzied flame melts them away regardless. No wonder the hornsent forbid the flame's use.”_
It would be interesting to see if there is any further similarities between them, especially if you consider that both were capable of burning a great tree; Messmer's flame was needed to burn the sealing tree of the Scadutree and the Frenzied Flame able to burn the Erdtree when used with Giantsflame. And as you've suggested, the sealing tree may have been made using the Scadutree's power, and there's as well the connection between the Erdtree and the Scadutree in similarities and power.
You could take it even further when combining with cut-dialogue about the Erdtree's burning, where it was only the Black Flame of Destined Death that burned the Erdtree, not the Giantsflame. I mean, if Melina is Messmer's sister, if Melina is the Gloam-Eyed Queen before she was "burnt", and both her and Messmer bore visions of fire that basically were about burning a great tree... well, maybe Marika also feared that Messmer's flame could burn the Erdtree.
Food for Thought.
I love how they made Messmer feel so connected to the rest of the family without ever interacting with them. He looks just like Malenia in his second phase, Radahn looked up to him as an older brother, he has a similar personality to Morgott, he inspires loyalty and is well liked by the people who follow him like Miquella, he’s associated with serpents like Rykard, he has one eye and is used to burn down a tree like Melina, and his theme is like a darker, more tragic version of Radagon’s theme.
Totally agree - so well done
Good job, therefor praise the message
Hold on maybe not "like" miquella (yes I know miquella had some support but given his mind control abilities EVERY bit of support should be treated as suspect)
@@MrJpc1234 oh forsure, Messmer’s loyalty is way more impressive since we know it was genuine lol
Or the reverse.
Rykard got his idea of blasphamy via world snake thru Mesmer.
Melena burned the erdtree out of recognition of Messmer's flame.
Mequila copies Messmer's deminer when using his power to compell affection.
Messmer no doubt was a combat trainer to Rodahn.
I image thoose two dueled with a smile ear to ear.
Speaking of Miquella, it’s interesting that you can find one of his crosses in the Shadow Keep, implying that for whatever reason, Miquella entered/snuck into the keep and may or may not have interacted with Messmer. Kinda weird how Messmer was just chilling next door as one of his demigod siblings is busy ascending to godhood while using someone he was buddies with in the past as his consort. Imagine how shocked, angered and/or horrified Messmer would be if he were to find out what happened to Radahn.
Was looking for the Secret Rites Scroll. Found it, read it, and left it.
Maybe he was charmed by Miquella?
@@ALaz502 Yeh good shout actually
@@kcojcoApparently, there was some cut dialogue from Messmer’s intro cutscene where he says “Miquella spoke of thee.” or something along those lines.
@@kcojco the game goes to specific lengths to specify who is charmed by Miquella and when. If "anyone can potentially have been charmed by Miquella at any point," the story completely falls apart. Let me give you an example. "maybe Marika was charmed by Miquella the whole time too." See what i mean? A character with that power is tough to write, which is why the game makes it very clear who was charmed and when. So since the game never specified that Messmer was charmed, its very safe to say he was not.
There's an aspect of Messmer "playing the part of the Impaler" that was pointed out to me by, of all things, TVTropes' Funny Moments page for the game: In his cutscene, when he says "Mongrel intruder," it has the feel of the start to an imperious "How dare you trespass" speech, but the tone of his voice has a note of boredom to it, like he's dealt with people coming for his head a thousand times and he's just going through the motions. (Which in turn gives way to genuine surprise/confusion when he realizes the player is Tarnished.) He really is playing the part, like an actor saddled with a single well-known role he's been dissatisfied with for quite some time.
Oh dear, another dogged contender...
@@frazfrazfrazfraz Welcome, Tarnished one, purloiner of Great Runes. Mind you, the mantle of Elden Lord interests me none. the Shattering war, the ascenion of a god, let it all fade into nothing. You've done quite enough. Now have your rest. Mark my words Tarnished, you remain among the graceless
One mystery to me is the nature of the possible relationship between the abyssal serpent and Marika. Messmer's remembrance reads:
"A malevolent snake writhed within Messmer, and so his very mother plucked out his eye and put in its place a seal of grace. Yet, having done so, her fear compelled her to secret away her child within the realm of shadow. Hidden away-keeping company with the original sin, and a hatred that would not be confined."
I think most people have glossed over the nature of the "original sin" mentioned in the remembrance. We don't have a lot information on what Marika did in the shadow lands before she passed through the gates of divinity after all. But in Christianity, the "original sin" was the seduction of Eve by the devil, who convinced her to disobey God by eating the fruit of the tree of life while in the guise of a serpent. The devil argued that God did not want humans to eat the fruit because they would become His equal, gods themselves.
The remembrance says that Messmer is keeping company with the original sin. I would suggest that instead of the sin being a vague wrongdoing Marika did to achieve Godhood that merely happened in the shadow realm, Messmer is literally always In the company of the original sin because it is inside him- the abyssal serpent. Perhaps the serpent is directly related to Marika's ascension to godhood, her knowledge, and her access to the gate of divinity.
Perhaps Marika made a pact with the serpent somehow, gaining the power to acquire godhood, punish her tormentors, and avenge her village but at the cost of a common sacrifice in fiction: her firstborn.
Just as in Christianity the original sin is said to pass onto the children of Adam and Eve, and then onto their children, and from there all humanity, the original sin of Marika passed directly onto her firstborn son in a literal sense, perhaps even as a term of the pact.
There are a lot of holes in this theory and a lot of conjecture that lacks in-game support. The role of the Greater Will and Marika's two fingers implied to exist by Ymir are big possible complications. The theory also fails to answer why the serpent would want this pact or why it wouldn't serve as Marika's god instead of the Greater Will if it desired power or domination, like most of the outer gods seem to. But the connection between the original sin as a concept in real life religion and serpents seems too obvious and compelling a connection to be made within Messmer's remembrance to be coincidental.
The serpent, supposedly Lucifer, is also called a dragon. A winged serpent.
Nerd!
I like this theory a lot. It’s very rooted in history. Something I think the team at FromSoft takes into consideration.
The Serpent could have helped Marika simply to introduce the Abyss to the Lands Between, and by extension the Shadow Lands. If it did in fact aid Marika in her ascension then he would have tainted the Golden Order from the start. And we see how Marika ended up as a vessel. (She kind of sucked) Maybe that was the serpents plan all along. The Abyss does, after all, play a part opposite to Grace.
@@TheBlueKio TROGDOR THE BURNINATOR?
I would go one step further:
We see in the last trailer how marika pulls some golden strings (perhaps the elden ring, certainly an object of some kind of power, the way she holds it up at the gate), from a cloth like white corpse.
We can also see that her hair looks very red in parts, which might just be because of the lighting, since it is stated that radagon got his intensely red hair from a curse of the giants, but it seems a little too specific for me, as her hair looks almost more red than blonde in that shot.
What I gather from that is that the seduction and betrayal spoken of in the trailer refers to marika, or rather radagon, rising through the ranks of the hornsent society, probably playing along, promising them she would use her power as imperyan to benefit them and getting close to their highest deity in the process, which I would posit was the gloam eyed queen. I think this because we know she is heavily linked to snakes/possibly is a snake and there is a shed snakeskin nearby in bonny village, but mainly the shot of marika in front of the gate of divinity, the corpse she pulls the golden strings from just screamed godskin to me immediately.
Now how this all comes together I believe is that melina and messmer are the children of marika and the gloam eyed queen, hence their respective association with death/snakes and fire.
"tapeworm of unfathomable power" gonna be a metal song one day
Hahahah
Yo 😂
I'm already on it 😂
Im sure cannibal corpse has something to fit the criteria.
Sounds like a Tenacious D song RIP.
Man messmer would have been the coolest older brother.
He's very soft spoken and chill but also capable, he has the best pets, the most badass girlfriend, his best bro is a huge ass guy who rides a boar, and everybody who gets to know him personally swears he's a great guy.
which makes it even more tragic that Marika only ever show him as a tool to be used & then discarded.
I think the only child she ever loved &/or saw as her true successor was Godwyn. Like, if ur not perfect then ur just a tool. & after he died, she decided to doom not just her family but every1!
He didn't have a girlfriend. Rellana loved Messmer but he never reciprocated her feelings. You can see it in the various item descriptions
He was the best guy around…what murdahhhhhhhh?
@@drattoX like what? until i see these item descriptions myself, she's his girlfriend!
@@drattoXagreed. I think it’s far more likely that he either had an Oedipus complex or that he was asexual, far too busy with his mother’s “holy” crusade.
I think "A man torn and conflicted" sums up Messmer's character.
It's clear he never truly bought the mission his mother was selling him and when he was locked away it's almost certain he suspected he himself was the real reason the crusade happened or at least part of it.
Look at the company he kept, the fierce loyalty he inspired, and the fact he allowed the conservation of the Shadow Land's culture despite being in charge of purging it all.
None of those are the mark of a zealot, but the mark of someone hoping for all that is holy that the most tragic of possibilities is not true.
But upon seeing his mother select the Tarnished as a potential Lord elect it confirmed his worst fears.
It's all because of him. Because of his mother's fear of him, an entire culture was purged, close friends and loyal men were forced to lose everything and stain their hands with blood of a people's who had done nothing at present.
All of it, all of it, because his mother had given up trying to save him, and would rather seal Messmer away. Reviled and forgotten.
And so, in the end, all Messmer could do is curse his mother's name and her machinations for causing him to condemn so many people just by his sheer existence.
I would argue it's fine to use "tragic" to define Messmer because he is a tragic character. A monster to many, absolutely, but a son forced to become monster only to realize it was for nothing.
Whether this realization is the cause for why Melina, under the presumption she is the Glome Eyed Queen, wanted her mother and her rein dead, is something to consider at least.
The horn sent genocided marinas people first they were a degenerate culture that turned shamans into pot warriors for religious ritual at the least it would be marina killing two birds with one stone
In the base game we meet a demi-human tailor Boc who was casted away by his mother. He confessed to us his desire to curl up and die because of it. And Melina immediately understood that he missed his mother, and was baffled by the fact that this is apparently what having a mother does to a person. But how could she recognise his emotion? The answer is: she saw it earlier in Mesmmer. He was casted away by his mother. He wanted to curl up and die because of it. And Melina was there to witness it all. I suspect she must have been keeping him company in the Shadow Keep all this time until Miquella's arrival. The she took his ride and made her way back into the Lands Between using the power of spirits to burn that damn tree once again.
wouldn't say the hornsent were a people that did nothing wrong, considering their entire genocide is based on the hornsents genocide of Marikas people, stuffing them into pots with the vague belief of turning them into 'saints'
? The whole reason for the crusade against the hornsent was because of the hornsent’s genocide and mutulation of marika’s people. The whole crusade is a giant act of revenge by marika.
@@zaboomba6635of it was all because of the honsent, why did she wait decades? Why not immediate revenge? She became a God, found Godfrey, had 3 children with him, waged countless wars, sent him away, some point her other half marries Renalla, they have 3 kids... more time passes since Messmer (and Gais) was "as an older brother to Radahn." Some point after the decades of the first 3 kids and Renallas kids was Messmer banished with his crusade mission.
So why wait? She was a God the whole time. She could have sent Godfrey on the crusade before banishing him. She could have cursed some giants and sent them there to kill the hornsent. So why wait all this time when there were plenty of options before Messmer (who appears to be older than a child during this crusade, per trailer) to take her revenge? Why let them live for a second more than necessary?
What’s interesting to me is that there seems to be a part of Erdtree society that despised the Crusade. If they all thought that the hornsent deserved death, they wouldn’t shun those who went on the crusade. Also, Marika wouldn’t have to make Messmer a scapegoat.
So either not all in Erdtree society hates the hornsent, or, they did, but they still feared those who would do such horrendous crimes returning to normal society.
@@alpacaofthemountain8760 Another interesting thing about the crusade is that one of the dlc paintings depicting its beginning is called "intrusion", which, according to the dictionary, means a sudden attack and unwanted entrance into territory controlled by others. So, I presume this crusade was a surprise for everyone and Messmer himself didn't really want to go.
I feel it ties in to Godfrey getting Banished, you banish a former symbol for the crucible then attack a culture centered around the crucible. That would also explain the hate for the crucible the are the only reminders left.(Besides the omen and the misbegotten and maybe the demi humans)
"Cool motive, still genocide." -the people of the lands between, probably
Red hair, and a hand-me-down robe? You must be a child of Radagon
Urgghhhh another shardbeareeeeerr.... GRYFFONDORRRRRR!
This is my favourite comment
Made me lmao
This is great
His theme is the Radagon motif, so yes. Should be obvious.
Messmer has a reputation of Terror but when we meet him he's not obnoxious or boastful.
He's this laid back macabre man with a quiet confidence.
All the other Demigods: you won't stop my agenda and get my shard Tarnished!
Messmer: Your Tarnished? No further questions needed. Time to die.
He was bored when we come in. Angry, but bored
MONGREL INTRUDER
@@jstar3382 "in the embrace...of Messmer's Flame..." with the hardest eye roll in history behind it.
I wonder if being in the Land of Shadow kept him from going completely insane when the Shattering happened
I like how he's more offended and confused that you're there than anything else.
i find it interesting that Radahn's swords are stated to be made of black steel, a material associated with Messmer's army of black knights and to my knowledge, one not found outside the lands of shadow, Maliketh's set is said to be made of black iron, not steel, and i cant think of anything else that would use the material.
I too think this is a thing. Maliketh's amor looks very much like the knights in the shadow realm
@@TRACTOOOOOOOOOR Maliketh’s armour design is inspired by Marika’s cloth design (see her paintings/opening cutscene), with their Gold and Black trimmings. And subsequently, it seems that Messmer’s fodder knights (not fire knights) are also knights of Marika who embody the same colour code
it’s my opinion that melina is cursed by the gloam eyed queen in the same way each of her other children is cursed. the fact that one eye is gold and the other eye is gloam, that she promises destined death for the the lord of frenzied flame, and that she wields the blade of calling and dodges like a black knife assassin, i think all hint to me that she has been a tool for marika, which is probably why she appears to be really deliberate and thoughtful when she says that she plans to follow through with the plan marika has for her to burn the erdtree
i still have no fucking clue who the gloam eyed queen is but i i actually feel like the dlc having “gloam eyed knight” as the name for putrescent knight in the files feels rather interesting if we consider that the stone coffins of the fissure and the cerulean coast and the transportation via coffins in game may be technology from whatever GEQ’s culture would have been…… its always bothered me tho that maliketh’s name mean death of the demigods when he is supposedly the one that defeated the gloam eyed queen at the behest of marika… i do love that gurranq teaches u a healing incant tho bc of his ties to marika and the healing properties of the erdtree incants
I think it might be worth thinking that maybe the M naming convention isn't indicative of a child of Marika and Radagon. The M naming covention might just be for the children of Marika who were born afflicted. Morgott and Mohg but have the naming convention but are children of Godfrey.
Truuuueee
I just thought it was for twins
@@alfalldoot6715 Messmer and Melina, seemingly confirmed by Messmer’s Kindling item, aren’t twins
Let me clarify this for you, Me, and Mi derivative is a marika/ radagon, Mo, god any derivative is a Godfrey child. Ra, ry, radahn, is a child of renalla child. They literally take the derivative of their main birth parent each one. It’s how you would know what house someone was from back in the day
And Millicent.
Ymir's High Priest Hat says "The circular design at the top represents the Greater Will and its lightless abyss," which makes me very curious about the relationship between the serpent and the Greater Will if the abyss belongs to it in some way
When I first read that I thought there could be two different ways to interpret it bases on the wording.
1) The Lightless Abyss belongs to the Greater Will, like you said. Like it's their domain or something.
2) The Lightless Abyss is some kind of part or aspect of the Greater Will. Like how a religious icon might say: "Represents the Erdtree and it's Radiant Light." Or something along those lines.
@tevenpowell8023 Honestly, it is starting to make me wonder if the Greater Will actually prefers the abyss and actively dislikes the light. The GW seems to be a being that desires order above all, and if shadow is used to obscure things, maybe it realized that in a place entirely devoid of light it would never have to observe things that are disorderly
This could be the whole reason it divided the One Great in the first place, where all things were conjoined in one chaotic jumble. It tried to keep only the darkness and banish the light, creating the first stars and perhaps even the primeval current. But, just like in Dark Souls, this first creation of disparity had unintended consequences. The stars began to create life, like Astel and the Moon and even mortals according to Ymir, who said that "we began as stardust, born of a great rupture far across the skies"
So then the Greater Will gets annoyed at the chaos it has accidentally created and sends Metyr and the Elden Beast to bring order to the world of light outside the abyss... (aka, GW has had a long day at work and just wanted to turn off the lights and get some sleep, but his kids are throwing a loud party downstairs and flicking all the light switches on and off, so he sends the two oldest siblings down to make the others shut up, sit down, and do their homework)
I've always wondered if the Greater Will and the Primeval Current are just one entity.
Especially how it coincides the Greater Will abandoning the Microcosm and Sellen's quest to restore the Primeval Current
@@RockyRockthrow Primeval Current might be something the Greater Will uses to Communicate with it's Followers/Minions, if the Primeval current is severed then that would explain how there's been no Communication from the Greater Will and why The Mother of the Two Fingers hasn't been Communicated with the Greater Will and feels abandoned, The Finger mother has just been telling the Fingers to continue the Status quo because it doesn't know what to do next without Guidance, Everyone has been abandoned by the Greater Will, Abandoned by "Grace".
@@spaendonk19 Why are you watching a Lore video then?
It might have been mentioned before but another interesting Messmer-Melina connection is Messmer and his snakes/serpentine affinity, and the apostles of Melina/GEQ have serpentine features as well. I could be pulling at straws, but it’s interesting that both siblings share a connection with snakes.
The only thing is Melina herself doesn’t seem to have any snake features, only if we agree she is the GQE and her apostles.
Someone with deeper knowledge of the lore might be able to embellish (or provide a counterpoint)
Just want to say Fantastic video as always! Just finished the final boss on a blind play through and now I’m catching up with Smoughtown lol
Absolutely amazing video!! Messmer quickly grew to be my favorite character and part of Elden Ring lore, happy to see your take of his lore! :)
I would like to propose a different theory with the 'M' naming convention. Every time it is brought up, people seem to just completely forget that Mohg and Morgott exist. I think the 'M' names do not reference being born to Radagon x Marika, but that it symbolizes that all such children are cursed.
Yeh a solid theory
Beginning with “M” and ending in “A”
The Mo- distinguishes them though.
Malenia
Miquella
Messmer
Melina
G(o)dwyn
M(o)rgott
M(o)hg
The M denotes Marika, the O denotes Godfrey. Godwyn was possibly the first child, and was raised to be a warrior like Godfrey, so the same name isn't too crazy
@@jstar3382 the M-A are the children of Marika and Radagon unless the conform Messer is from Radagon as well. I believe right now it’s just the twins
@@jstar3382 if Messmer is older than the children with R it’s hard to say he’s the father granted he had the red hair. Unless she cheated with herself lol could happen she’s wicked.
My guy, the world is insane right now and i was never gonna get to sleep but here you are , thanks
Hope you are all good, enjoy the content
Amazing video, as per usual! I completely missed how well fleshed out all the Fire Knights were. Their distinct personalities and histories make the setting, and Messemer himself, much deeper. One aspect of him that you perhaps could have touched upon more is a throwaway - but in my opinion significant - line from Commander Adnreas' ashes:
"Though he remained a devout follower of Messmer after his flight from the Erdtree, he would rebel after learning of his liege's serpentine nature. His righteous stand was rewarded with imprisonment in an underground tomb." The key part is Messemer's *flight* from the Erdtree. He wasn't 'sent' to the lands of shadow - he fled to them. It opens up a certain chain of events:
Messemer is the firstborn of Marika and Radagon. He has a serpent in him, but it is contained by the power of Marika's seal and Messemer grows up as 'normal.' He partakes in his mother's wars - I do think the giant impalement just fits a little too well to pass up - and has a life within Leyndell and interacts with his various siblings and the court in general. The snag seems to be twofold:
1) Messemer's serpentine nature cannot be kept under wraps forever.
2) Messemer's fundamentalism - his radicalism - makes him antithetical to the Erdtree specifically. We see in Radagon's era of the golden order that both the intolerance towards those not of grace ramps up as well as the Erdtree losing ground as an object of worship - replaced by the Elden Ring itself.
Messemer was sealed away to keep company with the base serpent - a reviled thing - and the 'original sin' - akin to the cardinal sin of burning the Erdtree, because *maybe he did.* Maybe the first burning of the Erdtree was on Messemer, who then went on to cleanse the land of shadows - in line with Golden Order fundamentalism and perhaps on Marika's orders as a ruse to pretend at control - but Marika then slammed the door shut behind him.
On the section for dark and light, I was quite suprised you didnt bring up Ranni. She speaks of the dark path of the empyrean, she bore witness to the dark moon, shes very clearly opposed to the current order, one of grace and light, and the ages of stars that she would bring about has a fairly obvious relation to darkness.
Now Im not saying she is trying to bring about an age of darkness, but instead that darkness seems necesary for her order. It is in the dark of night when the moon and the stars shine brightest.
While Vaati is still undoubtably the king of presentation and cinematography, I look forward to these so much more. The level of research and detail is unreal; thank you!
Much appreciated! And agreed, Vaati is the GOAT
@@SmoughTown sorry good sir but the goat is you
Gonna have to disagree with the you there but to each their own
Vaati does lore in broad strokes but I enjoy the videos that pick the lore apart in smaller chunks more.
Vaati is a great primer to set the stage of the lore in a compelling way, but Smough undoubtedly the main course that helps me get the best understanding and insight.
I personally think that Marika being a Shaman, and the Hornsent abusing and flaying the shamans was one of the main motivators for her to conduct this purge. The minor erdtree incantation says "Marika bathed the village of her home in gold, knowing full well that there was no one to heal." (And the village is called Shaman Village, basically outright saying she was a Shaman.). To me, that seemed to imply that her motivation to even start her crusade and conquest was the Hornsent flaying and murdering her people, and having killed all members of her village, except for her.
I think that her sealing Messmer away was why she kept the crusade going, despite sealing and abandoning her son, writing him out of history. Probably out of fear mostly, but partially probably also because she understood that if people knew what she did, that would greatly tarnish her reputation and renown.
Although, on an unrelated note, it makes me wonder about her motivation for the shattering.
Before the DLC, I always believed that it was a culmination of two of her children being Omen, and thus locked away, another child dying and even more of her children being afflicted with curses.
The song of Lament that the bat ladies sing has a line that translates roughly to "Golden One, at whom you were angry? (Aureum, cui irascebaris?)" which I always took to mean that Marika was angry at her own Golden Order. Because not only was one of her children murdered and turned into a rotting mass of undeath, two of her children being locked away and hidden, which can't have been nice, and others being cursed without a way to heal them.
Now I think that Morgott and Mohg being Omens probably played a bit of a bigger part in this. Because she created a world that persecuted hornsent and omen for the crimes committed against the Shamans. Marikas people. And thus, seeing two of her children with crucible aspects, and most specifically horns must have been a grimm reminder not only of her pain, but also her crusade and hatred towards the Hornsent. Not enough of a reason to shatter the Elden Ring, but probably something that added to her motivation to do so. And when Godwyn got murdered, it could have made her lose all faith in her order, shatter the Elden Ring and call back the tarnished, to establish new order, and bring about a new age.
Absolutely, I think this part (your first paragraph) is incredibly important. It seems kind of ridiculous to genocide the hornsent just because it's a convenient way to get Messmer out of her hair. Marika sent him there to conduct a revenge mission. It's also an important overall lore element because it brings out the moral ambiguity that's always crucial in FromSoft lore; they weren't just the sweet innocent tribes massacred by the big power, they committed plenty of atrocities in their own right. I'm not sure she sealed them away because the massacre might reflect poorly on her; she's waged plenty of wars in the name of the Erdtree already without any of her subjects batting an eye. I think it might be to completely erase every trace of them out of history, just like they erased hers, which is why "omens" are shunned and hidden away. Perhaps she believes that in the very existence of the crucible and its telltale signs in birth "defects" like horns, tails, etc, lie the tendencies that first gave way to the annihilation of her people. But again, like you point out later, this creates conflicting emotions for her when her own children are born as omen.
I think all of what you said in following paragraphs well describes the multitude of reasons leading up to why she shattered the Elden Ring, and I think we can also add what St Trina says to the tarnished, about why we must kill Miquella: because Godhood becomes like a prison. Once one has become a God in this world, one becomes in a way separated from it, and perhaps has less influence over what the people of the world actually do in one's name. As the things you described happen, she could merely watch and see how her rise to divinity and whatever Godly tenets she set out failed to bring about actual order, so she knew that the thing that maintained her divinity, the Elden Ring, had to be shattered, to be rebuilt by someone hopefully more worthy, more capable of bringing a more stable Age.
That said I'm absolutely no lore expert, I merely dabble, but I thought your comments were so interesting that I wanted to respond and share my thoughts.
I would guess that Marika, being a human, had some degree of regret regarding her actions. But, her choices kept her family safe. Removing death was done so she didn't have to lose anyone else
But they Godwyn died. What was the point of everything then? If all of her crimes lost (in her eyes, mind you) their justification, what reason was there for her to even be a god. Why not remove the possibility of someone repeating her mistakes, and shattering the Elden ring. Marika aligns with Trina. Godhood is a cage, and she attempted to break that cage forever.
I think something ppl forget is that it's repeated that her own people, the Numen, were actively trying to raise a god to end her order and were involved in the night of black knives. So, it's not just her children being the embodiment of the entities that killed her people, but, also, the people she sought to protect don't even want her as their god.
Imagine having all that power and committing so many crimes to achieve it only to realize you can protect no one with it. I would shatter the elden ring too.
@@viljamtheninja you say that you are an amateur lore analyst, but this is spot on. I also think it’s important to understand the weight of the Fingers in Marika’s whole story. In the description of Talisman you receive while doing Ymir’s questline, it states that the Two Fingers had something to do with the birth of the Erdtree.
I think it’s much deeper than Marika simply regretting her Order because of how it contradicted her entire plans for said Order (I.e - omen children, etc.). I actually think that the “Seduction” and “Betrayal” is Marika’s Fingers, and by extension - Metyr - are actually the spearheads of the Golden Order. Kind of like ASOIAF where the Young King Tommen has an advisor (Tywin Lannister) who manipulates him into doing what he wants.
Sure, I agree that the Purge of the Hornsent was a result of their terrible treatment of Marika’s people. But I actually think her entire story was built on false prophets. She was probably promised everything she will have ever wanted - an Order, without Death, that her people will not suffer through - so as long as she purges the past, and becomes the NEW ruler. She was likely aquatinted or used by the Hornsent, and the Fingers forced her to comply (speculation) with the Hornsents use of Marika. Little did she know, the Fingers - who were advising her - were manipulating Marika into becoming their pawn. The Greater Will had long renounced EVERYONE, yet they still put on a facade that there was still hope. This puts everything into context, and Marika’s motivations (for doubting the Order later in the timeline, for such cruelty enacted on behalf of Marika and her Fingers, death of the Golden Prince, her cursed Omen children, etc.). Marika doubting the Order was the beginning of her Betrayal to the Fingers, specially. Her expelling the Tarnished was the second part of her doubts. Her shattering the Elden Ring was the final straw, and her final “F*** You” to the Greater Will or the Fingers.
This puts into context your entire journey through the Lands Between. You’re told that the Fingers, and the Greater Will, guides you by the Grace of the Erdtree. But, it’s actually Marika’s Grace. She’s the one guiding you, forcing you on a journey, to [hopefully] change fate and abandon the Golden Order.
@@viljamtheninja I actually think you make a lot of really good points here. I don't think her ambition to shatter the Elden Ring so one more worthy can rebuild it, seeing as she would be the god to a lord to come. Which makes me think she likely wanted to restore the Elden Ring to its former state, reintroducing the Rune of Death. Her former lord and consorts, Godfrey and Radagon still being in the picture, and Radagon desperately trying to repair and hold on to the Golden Order, it would make sense that she wanted him at least out of the picture for, as you put it, someone more worthy.
Now, the Radagon Marika thing is interesting to me, because only with the Shamans it makes sense to me how they could be one person with seperate interests, goals and amibitions, which makes me think Radagon is likely a Shaman too, and thus they melded so harmoniously and can change when needed maybe. The same way St. Trina and Miquella were the same person, until Miquella divested himself of St. Trina, plunging her literal physical body into the abyss.
Although all of this is mostly speculation based on things I've heard so far. There's not a lot of proof to this, just something that recently came to mind, really.
Otherwise I think your points are really valid and add really well to what I thought could be the reasons and lore behind Marika, her ambitions and crusade
I think Marika had cared for Messmer, her Blessing item told that she used to made these to heal Messmer.
Shaman Village located right behind Black Keep, using gesture "O, Mother" to open the gate, Messmer maybe knew what happened to Marika and her people, and he accepted to slaughtered Hornsent for his mother. He even hated the fire inside him, but willlingly used it for his crusade.
He is cursed, he is a tyrant, he is loyalty, he has honor in him, he is...a tragic heroic some way.
Look at the clinic for those jars in his castle, he still takes care of them after all this time.
I just...love this man too much...
Notice how Marika never made a blessing flask or a seal for her other cursed children like Malenia or Miquella in the attempt to cure them or at least to hold back their curse. The only lore that shows us her trying to cure her child is Messmer's lore. I wonder why is that.
@@anhvu8804 The item description was phrased in a way that made me feel like the medicine Marika made was a one-time thing or a maybe a parting gift for him she prepared before the crusade. Or maybe there was an accident involving his flame and he got injured, so she made it once but then grew weary of him.
This is firmly one of the most emotionally moving and thoroughly well-written video essays so far about this DLC thank you for critically engaging with the world and its lore
Thanks Smough! Hes becoming my favorite character in the game. A complex figure who would do anything for his family despite being born cursed and then outcasted. Classic GRRM! Similar to Margott but even more tragic.
Such a well written character, was an absolute joy to write about him. Agree, very much feel GRRM's influence over it!
Why did he kill Melina?
@@spaendonk19 he did not kill Melina. Unless you take every single youtube video speculation for canon.
My neighbors had an impromptu trashcan bonfire in their back yard and were screaming "they want war" over and over again at 1:30am. my children slept with my wife and i and listened to smoughtown elden ring lore videos until they finally fell asleep. Thank you for such great content, and thank you for helping me get my young worried girls to sleep. Its crazy in my town today.
I'm sorry to hear that happened, I hope your family is all ok. Sending my best wishes
@@SmoughTownwhat is it about ?what happened?
@@ShkodoI think it has to do with the assassination attempt on Trump.
Def was some trump enthusiasts trying to flex
Bunch of lunatics, seems like.
Messmers theme seems to be a variation of radagons theme, which is no coincidence
I like it when the cute little white snake sounds like it's talking to you when you meet mesmer. Cute snek
Now just imagine Marika standing somewhere aside the Land of Shadow and suddendly pulling out a giant bed sheet out from under her robe and throw it over the Scadu Tree and the lands around it
"One, two, three, PRESTO!!! And the the Hornsent, my problematic Firstborn and all those things that kept bugging me are gone!" - round of Applause from the Leyndell Royalty
The topic of the abyss and darkness and the color purple always had me thinking about the Night's Calvary. They are soldiers who ride in darkness and they summon their horses from a purple portal (the void). I know there isnt a ton of lore on them but its something I always found interesting.
I think there’s also an interesting parallel between the “flame” siblings. Gurranq gives us a petrified gloam eye that reacts to fragments of Death, that was likely taken when he defeated the GEQ (Melina), and she has a mark over her eye (which opens in the frenzy flame ending - possibly with her retrieving said eye?). Mesmer, likewise, has an eye implanted in his head by Marika to seal his power, a very similar sort of sealing of power through the removal of an eye or eyes.
Interesting note when taking them as a unit is Messmer’s cursed eye is his right eye and Melina’s cursed eye is the left. Feels deliberate as a design choice.
My theory about Melina is that she too syffered a fate similar to Messmer. Marika needed someone to kill the old gods to pave her way. And infact we read a lot about the ancient gods of the lands of shadow, specifically about the hornsent god, but we never see them. So my best guess is that after Melina as a gloam eyed queen and her godskins became obsolete Marika, having acquired Maliketh, ordered her to abandon the power of destined death, but Melina probably refused to leave her purpose. And that's why she's still looking for her purpose, having being used by her mother like Messmer
I agree that giants were impaled by blood sorcery, however, that doesn't preclude Messmer from coming up with this idea and commanding blood sorcerers to do it. It could be the catalyst for his distasteful reputation, since blood sorcery is seen as heretical, and fits with the theme of him deflecting negativity from Marika.
Agreed!
Just adding a though. The initial letter and the red hair can be really connected to Radagon. On the other hand, Morgot and Mogh have their initial starting with M. The most plausible explanation is what you say, that they belong to a first generation, when everything was against the erdtree. Melina as the gloam eyed queen, was helping her mother hunt down antagonistic gods. Messmer as it seems, is somehow linked to the fight with the giants and the fallen god. Both were feared by their mother because of their powers and it is probalby the case, that the exile of messmer led to the godsking apostasy and the punishment of melina. This just a thouht on the subject nothing more.
I have a similar theory, that Melina rebelled against Marika, due to how she abandoned Messmer after the backlash of the crusade. I think Melina couldn't accept that her brother was treated as a blasphemous traitor, when he was only carrying his mother's will, and that Marika didn't care enough to defend him.
Personally, I wish the lore of the game wasn't so deeply buried, however I am grateful that you're here to pull all of that together. I'd love to see the lore brought to life via an adaptation or a release from Fromsoftware of GRRM's work on the game
Here is a crack at explaining some of the quirks of the DLC lore: perhaps Messmer's flame drove him to attempt to burn the Erdtree, after which he was reviled as a traitor. But he became a sort of "penal soldier" much like he would later command in the Shadowlands, and was sent to fight the Giants to earn back his good name. It was always weird to me that "don't burn the Erdtree" was a holy Commandment, because who would really even think about this? The scale of power required to do it isn't something your average peasant or even high nobility is capable of. So it must have happened once, in this theory because of Messmer, and it was at this point that Marika realized the real danger that fire could pose to her Order.
Thus, she sent her forces to fight the Giants. Messmer, possibly sacrificing his other eye, used the thorn sorceries of the guilty to impale all the giants, and then was allowed back into the Order. Except not really, because his name was still mud in polite society, and his next official duty was to be sent off to conduct the Shadowlands genocide, to get him and all the other undesirables out of Marika's golden sight.
Then later it seems that Melina thought "hey maybe my brother was right." And then later it seems Rykard thought "hey, maybe my half-brother and half-sister were right!" He definitely seems to be the heir, or "re-discoverer" of a lot of shady stuff that seems to have been happening waaay back in the foggy early history of Marika's reign.
Edit: Also if Messmer attacked the Erdtree before the war with the giants, maybe it was here that Marika plucked out his eye, thus possibly allowing contact with the Blood Star and giving him (temporary?) access to the thorn sorceries used to impale the giants. I know Messmer doesn't really have an in-game association with blood, but he IS clearly styled after Dracula so there is a blood link there. Maybe he lost access to the Bloodstar powers after he killed the giants, and Marika "forgave" him and gave him his sealed eye of Grace.
Also, the thorn sorcerers who work with the Fire Monks use fire too. Nowadays it is the Fell God's flame it seems, but in the past perhaps it was Messmer's flame? Just like the Blackflame Monks eventually found another source of fire power.
Messmer should’ve been the main antagonist of the dlc. Such a fantastic character and one of the best fights From’s ever made. 👌
Yeh just a tremendous fight and lore
I think he had the best boss fight - especially the snake transformation and attacks were really cool. I enjoyed it a lot more than Radahn.
He kind of is though his impact is felt all throughout the land of shadows just because he isnt the final boss doesnt mean hes the main antagonist.
Leave it to Fromsoft for making the most badass antagonists only the mid-point bosses of their DLCs😭
He's more the red herring in that miquella is the true baddie
There'a a few indirect sources that could imply just what the GEQ is related to Melina.
Much like how Empyreans have an alter ego (Marika and Radagon, Miquella and Trina) the Gloam-Eyed Queen was surely the alter ego of Melina, and there's a bit of indirect reference implying this and that Melina is an Empyrean.
Its inferred in the game Empyreans have a closed eye. The only others we see are Ranni, Malenia and Miquella. We never see what Miquellas eyes looked like before he discarded his eye at one of the crosses, which Ansbach even reveals is proof of Empyrean status. Melania's eyes are conveniently completely destroyed so we could not see if she had a closed eye).
One closed eye represents the absence or removal of their other half (as Ranni burned her body and Miquella discarded his Empyrean eye and body, as well as St Trina, both his eyes are closed which implies a complete denial of all himself, not just half).
When Melina is able to open both her eyes in the Frenzied Flame ending, its because we unsealed Destined Death which allows Melina to awaken her sealed half, because it was not actually possible to kill the GEQ but only "defeat" her by severing Destined Death from Melina, and I suspect this was done by destroying her body which is why she is "burned and bodiless". I feel its circumstantial evidence but it fits extremely well.
All of Melina's memory as the GEQ was also removed as a consequence.
Seems like it is indeed the case.
If Melina's alter ego is the Gloam Eyed Queen, then it's possible that Marika/Maliketh defeated the Gloam Eyed Queen, which is why Melina is burned and bodiless, and knows more that she seems to let on.
I do believe you're on to something with the closed eye theory but I don't believe Melina's other half is the GEQ. As seen before with Marika/Radagon and Miquella/ St. Trina, an empyrean has a male self and female self inhabiting one body. Melina having another female self inhabiting one body seems counter intuitive.
@sventasbravo177 that and the only other character with the queen moniker is the god.
It would make way more sense- especially with the previous death rite rituals, for the gloam eyed queen to have been the previous God.
@@sventasbravo177 yeah... I forgot about the male/female half thing but its also vague on the details.
There's nothing that says exactly that Empyrean's other half must be the opposite gender, but if that IS the case then closed eye could mean something broader than having 2 halves but rather being "cut" in half. It could be Melina is half of her original self which WAS the GEQ, but when the Rune of Death was taken from her she became Melina and lost her power and memory of being the GEQ
I love that the Hornsent fear the Fell God, as they worship the Crucible, the primevil form of the Erdtree. Basically they hate them as much as Marika did for basically the same reason, their idol of worship can be burned.
Regarding the Divine Beasts, I would suggest looking into Zulie's interpretation that the ones we fight in the Shadowlands are merely a mimicry of the originals (being two Sculpted Keepers piloting the costume and mask).
The true Divine Beasts were probably mostly gored and impaled in the crusade, but I find particularly intriguing the hypothesis of the Lion Guardians found in the Lands Between being some remaining specimens, as they are indeed giant lions with crucible horns, chained, tormented and put to use as "guard dogs".
Here are some ideas I have about Melina (These might be complete shots in the dark. But I like to theorize. Feel free to disagree, I just like to share :D ) :
Butterflies: Of course we now know she does have her own butterfly in the base game. Which I believe implies she is the daughter of Marika and Radagon. I think the butterflies are specific to children of the two of them. (Perhaps even to twins specifically?) An even further reach I have is they are specific to Empyreans. Which might or might not be right (really only works if Melina is the Gloam Eyed Queen). I think her curse would be the kindling she has in her like Messmer, and something related to death. Hence the Gloam Eye.
Burned and Bodiless: Melina tells us that she indeed is burned and bodiless. I think this might be implying she could have done it of her own volition. Much like Ranni and Miquella did. She divested herself of her flesh to destroy her ties to the Golden Order. (It would finally explain why her and Ranni have the same spirit effect entrance. Perhaps she was even the first one to do this and gave this idea/helped Ranni with it). For whatever reason that might have been. Be it burning the Erdtree (or the Godskin uprising).
I thought her mother maybe burned her herself 2 act. As her assistant in burning the tree later on
I think Marigons first child was Melina, from before she became god. When Marika ascended she used her, like Messmer, and made her be her inversion, like the Rune of Death and Marika's rune. And made her the Gloam Eyed Queen. Also explains Gloams connection to Eternal Cities, knowledge of malleable flesh for Godskins, fingerprint-sigil, crucible connection and Minor Erdtree because it was her time period. There were also Gloam-snake connections before DLC so I also think they might be twins. But if not it may also be that her hair is more muted because Radagon was less prominent before godhood.
@darquanjr Just a timeline thing but I think Marika had her first radagon children after she became a God but before Godfrey and her conquests ....Reason I think there is something about her godhood that means any of her children in that state are vulnerable to curses/outer god influence
this furthers my thought that the two omen twins were actually the children of marika and radagon. Like seriously though... another set of cursed twins? and you're telling me they are Godfreys kids? they dont even gave a g name they have an m name like all other children of marika and radagon
@@MrJpc1234 Its just that I think Melina was used by Marika for something early on. And because the Rune of Death was plucked from the Golden Order when it was created I think it could be the case. We also only know that she is Empyrean not if she is cursed, that happens when you are born from a single god. Marika wasn't cursed before ascension.
Note that Messmer's theme in the OST contains Radagon's theme, a further hint to his being Radagon's son (just like Midra's theme contains the melody of the merchant from above the Three Fingers, signifying his connection to the Frenzied Flame).
However, the letter M means nothing on the fatherhood of Radagon, because Morgott and Mohg are the sons of Godfrey.
I think there might be a more obvious connection between Midra and the Frenzy
@@Florjb0rjTheFloorboard well, yes, of course, but I just mentioned it to show how FromSoftware designs the OST to include some lore here and there (and particularly in the DLC).
@@Florjb0rjTheFloorboard I agree. Some cases are more obvious than others. But Shadow of the Erdtree makes much more connections in its OST than before. Shaman Village, Rellana, Scadutree Avatar, Messmer, Promised Consort, Romina, Midra, etc, all have connections to something in the basegame, one way or another.
That’s why, despite it being a *less* obvious reference compared to other tracks, I take the Messmer/Radagon reference at face value. It reinforces the consistency the community has with Messmer’s character (Red hair, an ‘M’ name, brother to Melina = Radagon’s son).
It’s also the exact same composer, Tsukasa Saitoh, who composed both the Main Title and Messmer the Impaler. There’s a very unique rhythm of strings and brass used in the Main Title/Final Battle that aren’t used *anywhere* else on the Soundtrack, other than the intersections of both of Messmer’s Phases. It’s so well hidden that I never heard the reference until someone told me. Then I realised, yes, Messmer’s theme has elements of the Final Battle leitmotif, once you realise it’s a darker, more twisted rendition of it. Once that realisation sinks in, it’s much easier to notice the reference
With the potential of Messmer and Melina as siblings, the eyes are of particular interest to me. Between them there are left and right eyes of note.
Messmer’s right eye is the heart of his affliction and the thing that needs a seal.
Melina’s left eye is sealed shut and her face is covered in markings around that gloam eye.
One eye tied to the abyss, another eye tied to death. And on opposite sides of the face too.
Also I assume you’re aware at this point but Scadutree is pronounced like “sha-doo” tree. Just obligatory comment because it’d drive me crazy hearing Skadootree nonstop in future videos lol
It’s sad that when his own soldiers rebelled against him after learning his true nature, he wasn’t even mad, he was heartbroken
I do believe messmer was first born, but it was after the conquest of the giants. The fell god cursed Marika after its defeat. That curse turned Radagons hair red. It stated that he resents his red hair. I believe while Godfrey was fighting the Storm Lord, Marika had children with Radagon. After seeing her kids born cursed, she tossed Radagon aside. She finally got her perfect child in Godwyn.
We believe it was Marika's choice to call Radagon back from Lurnia. I believe it was the 2 fingers. They needed a stronger shackle for Marika. Godfrey and the tarnished was her plan to free herself. We know from Melina's dialog that Radagon was going to take over Marika's body eventually.
I believe the Abyssal Serpant is an outer god and creator of all serpants. I think the immortal serpant were more numerous than we think. That skin could be another immortal snake in the lands of Shadow.
Radagon might have been Marika's other half or lover when she was a mortal and one of the shamans. When Marika ascended, she needed a champion not just a lover so she left Radagon. Radagon fought for the golden order so he could be considered a champion, therefor, Marika took him back. It would explain the generational split between Messmer and the twins. It would also explain why Radagon left Renala, so he could return to is other half or his first love as a champion.
Just a theory, I don't have any evidence to suggest it, but it's my head cannon.
The timeline that formed in my head while playing the DLC was something like this:
1. Merika's village is slaughtered by hornscent, turned into jars.
2. Merika, likely to get revenge, discovers the ritual to ascend to godhood (likely from a Two Fingers) at the divine gates and performs that ritual.
3. As a new god, Merika spawns her children of fire: Mesmer and Melina. Both pose a danger to Merika with Mesmer with his Abyssal Serpent and Melina the Gloam-Eyed's ability to slay gods.
4. Merika marries Godfrey and goes on her first Crusade against the Fire Giants.
5. With the Fire Giants vanquished, Merika makes several nearly-simultaneous moves:
a. Banishes Godfrey.
b. Marries Renala as Radagon to bolster her army with Carian knights.
c. Sends Mesmer on a crusade against the final that to her supremacy: The hornscent that knew of her origins and that slaughtered her village.
d. At some point after Mesmer began the crusade, Merika finalized the creation of the Erdtree/Scadutree, and in doing so cast the Lands of the Hornsent into shadow along with her first son... And leaves Rennala soon after.
6. Melina begins the God Hunt to avenge her brother and is burned alive by Merika.
6. Many eons pass...
7. Ranni kicks of the Night of the Black Knives, which then leads to the Shattering War.
makes sense that she would send messmer over melina too. the abyss itself seems a much larger deal than practically anything she had going on
So ready for SotE Smough content!! Also, congratulations on the book! Will definitely pick that up.
Thanks Kell! Really appreciate the kind words and support!
8:04 I think you’re about right.
Messmer was born of Radagon and Marika, and is likely Marika’s Firstborn.
However, Radagon wouldn’t have been Marika’s consort at the time, making Messmer a legitimized bastard. Whereas Melena likely wasn’t legitimized, which is why nobody knows of her.
Great shout
@@SmoughTownAlso it’s interesting that both of Marika’s illegitimate children were born with fire capable of setting sacred trees aflame.
In the cinematic trailer we can see how Marika is ascending to the Godhood at the gates yet there is no Godfrey (the required Lord to perform the ritual) to be found. Also Marika is topless and wears a Radagon-like skirt looking very similar to him. Make me think that Marika herself became a wessel for her lord consort soul - Radagon. And they were the one since then.
Best piece of lore analysis just dropped.
Thanks my friend! Hope you enjoy!
This man made the Elden Ring Bible I need that joint immediately
It's pretty interesting to compare and contrast Messmer and Miquella when it comes to the loyalty and trust of their followers because while Miquella can earn genuine loyalty from people like Leda and Malenia, he's prone to using his powers of compulsion to maintain his followers' loyalty. On the other hand, Messmer seems to inspire genuine loyalty from his followers without resorting to power or coercion despite seeming like a grim, sullen demigod who knows nothing but war and slaughter.
- Rellana renounced her royal title to swear fealty to him along with some Carian knights and sorcerers, becoming known as his loyal “Sword”.
- Commander Gaius is one of his close friends who leads his ground forces. Despite being an albinauric who would normally be shunned by the Golden Order, he remains loyal to Messmer and holds a high ranking and respected position.
- His Lordsworn soldiers and knights are devoted to him (With spirit of one going as far as being outraged that Marika has never embraced him). They've proven to be difficult enemies with many tricks up their sleeve, implying a level of training and discipline higher than even some knights in the Lands Between.
- The Fire Knights, his personal guard, came from Leyndell’s upper echelons and noble families. It's stated they didn't mind being ostracized and disowned by their noble families back in Leyndell if it meant being at their lord's side, and tried to put Messmer's flame into themselves, to show their unwavering support.
On top of all that, they did all of this knowing they’ll be shunned by society and erased from record with their deeds unsung and forced to wage an unending war without mercy or honor. They also have no real reason to stay in the Land of Shadow anymore. While indeed, they're trapped with having no way of knowing how to get out and despite being war weary in what amounts to uncounted ages of genocidal slaughter, Messmer's army remains rather organized in the Land of Shadow despite major events happening outside their reach. The Golden Order has collapsed, Queen Marika is imprisoned in the Erdtree and the Lands Between was ravaged in the Shattering, all before the Tarnished comes to kill any and all remaining demigods left. Messmer and his army could’ve deserted the Golden Order, splinter up and resort to banditry. Yet, even after all this time, they remained at their posts, unaware of the developments in the Lands Between, with little to no hint of any rebellion or mutiny aside from a few black knights such as father and son duo Andreas and Huw, respectively, who rebelled Messmer after discovering his “serpentine nature” and was imprisoned for it. Even after Messmer quashed their rebellion, he gave them an honorable burial and mourned for their loss.
Not saying that their deeds should necessarily be seen as justified and honorable but it's certainly an interesting look into Messmer's character.
Dawg. No offence, but I done seen you comment this on EVERY SINGLE video😭😭🙏 like, I get it, Messmer commands loyalty and respect lmao
@@HeevaTheBeloved Add this person to the list of those charmed by Messmer LMAO
And me too tbf, I'll glaze that man all day he deserves it
@@HeevaTheBelovedYes, I realised this too, that I have read this comment a fee times over several videos
Thank you for the incredible lore video. I’m finally almost finished with my 10th playthrough of Elden Ring, but first playthrough in almost two years. It’s been a blast playing through from scratch while listening to your lore videos. ❤️
My pleasure and thank you so much for the kind words and support
Marika/Radagon: has kids
Outer gods: it's free real estate
I just started watching it and will be finishing it tomorrow. You go so in depth in your videos, with so much detail, truly amazing work.
Yoooo! Thank you so much for being here - really appreciate the support!
@@SmoughTown Of course!! I love the content, and see the passion you have for these games =D
There is also the ost, which is the same melody as Radagon's ost
Same composer, too. Really cool how even the OST connects the story together too lol
*Note:* The term "ignoble penal battalion" could also be interpreted to mean a battalion whose role is to act as enforcers responsible for punishing offenders under a legal system.
In this context, the battalion itself is not composed of the dishonorable or punished individuals, but is instead tasked with executing the cruel crusade against the Hornsent, who are deemed intolerable under the new no-more-Crucible-stuff policy of the Golden Order. Hence they are characterized as ignoble & penal.
Further evidence being, that the participants of this crusade were rewarded with grace from Marika herself (see her 80000 rune consumable).
Wouldn't make sense for the soldiers to be prisoners, who get rewarded with grace from the queen herself if they have been convicted for some crime.
Very true!
I think it does refer to a brigade comprised of prisoners. Why else would they specifically be buried hidden from the view of the Scadutree?
something that AGTJake said that I agree with, is that Messmer just has firstborn-vibes, also there has been a lot of debate regarding why Marika betrayed the hornsent. One theory is that Marika became a jar-saint via the same ritual that the others of her people suffered and she thus became an important figure in hornsent society despite at first being tortured etc by them. This is possible but maybe it's simply the fact that the erdtree and the hornsent coexisted at a time and then the crusade happened. Calling this being alligned is a bit of a stretch but simply allowing them to exist and for their cultures to have some exchange and then ordering the genocide against them could be considered trechery. Obviously if she ruled over the hornsent as part of the realm of the erdtree that would also explain why it's a betrayal
One thing i found very interesting is that the serpents that accompany messmer are winged. And specifically with leathery batlike wings. This may be why messmer and his forces despite being shunned and seen as monstrous were still highly respected. The snakes having these wings may have made them appear to be more divine, redeemed from the sins of their lowly counterparts. Then not being feathered wouldve also detached them from association with the crucible. Thus they and messmer were absolved of their connections to enemies of the erdtree and instead became these symbols of fear and the terrible power of the golden order
Melina's black flame as the gloam eyed queen also ties her to the abyss. Perhaps this abyss association is an affliction of that first generation of marika + radagon. Then Marika had to purge the shadow from the Erdtree itself in order to produce a second generation with Radagon, disassociated with the abyss. However, rather than the abyssal curse upon this 2nd generation, there was the curse of outer gods who dwell within it.
I love messmer's character. I was really hoping your video for him would be longer than an hour!
Hahah glad I could deliver! I hope you enjoy
On the topic of Messmer's heritage, I think it's a bit of a red hair-ing (get it?) to assume that he was a child of Marika and Radagon.
First of all, I want to point out the obvious reference to Loki and his offspring, the Jörmungandr or world serpent, said to dwell in the abyss-like world sea surrounding the world of Norse mythology. Likewise, I think Melina is an allusion to the goddess of the underworld, Hel; especially in the form of the Gloam Eyed Queen. To complete the set you have Maliketh - a supposed brother or step-brother (even though the specifics on how he was created aren't clear) - perhaps representing Fenrir.
Loki's partner and the mother of his children was a giant, as an interesting sidenote.
Secondly, Radagon is stated to have hated his red hair (Giant's Red Braid), and we've always taken this to be a reference to his hatred for the giants. But what if it is actually a reference to Messmer? Now that he's a part of the story, we have to reconsider what we've assumed about the giants. The "Burn, O Flame!" incantation suggests that they were actually cursed beings; cursed to forever tend to the flame of their Fell God of Fire. Slaves to it. Their defeat is described as a release. In turn, both Melina but especially Messmer appear to have been cursed to tend to a flame for all eternity. A flame that Messmer despises, but can't get rid of. Perhaps it is his likeness to Messmer that Radagon truly despises, assuming that he is well aware of him and his nature? Perhaps Messmer's eternal flame was a result of him being cursed following his participation in the war against the Fire Giants and the ushering in of the age of the Erdtree?
It could also have been Radagon who sent him on his crusade, looking to get rid of him. Radagon and Marika are one, and thus it's difficult to distinguish between their actions. But sending Messmer on a crusade against the graceless, only to then imprison him within his newly conquered realm and sealing it all away, seems to line up with Radagon and his fundamentalism far better than it does with anything under Marika's rule.
If anything, it appears that Marika may have had similar intentions to Miquella; she wanted to make a harsh and brutal world a gentler place. And for a time, perhaps she succeeded, as the Hornsent, the people of the Crucible and the people of the Erdtree appeared to live in relative peace. What triggered the Shattering may have been Marika rebelling against the Radagon's far more extreme vision of order, and the way it would begin to twist the world of the Lands Between into one even more harsh and brutal than the one Marika had sought to change in the first place.
As for the point you make at 1:14:10 - I think it's interesting that Messmer is clearly being portrayed as a fierce and cruel villain, yet he appears to be a gentle soul at heart. A caring, empathetic individual, whose actions were carried out out of loyalty to his goddess mother rather than out of any obvious hatred for the graceless. He takes no pleasure in what he does, yet he was tasked with becoming the embodiment of fear, and was turned into a symbol of fear and betrayal in return. His likeness - that of the serpent - was made an icon of evil and perhaps the cruelty of what was being done to him was what spurred on Melina, the Gloam Eyed Queen to start her own rebellion against the oppression of the Golden Order Fundamentalists? Of course the Golden Order would cast the Gloam Eyed Queen as a brutal villain, but maybe she did what she did to try and save her brother from his cruel fate?
I think it's entirely possible that he was the child of Marika alone, or that he may have even been adopted by her. I think the shed serpent skin is significant, as it suggests that there may have been a time during which he was an actual serpent, and I wonder whether or not it's possible that he was reborn/reincarnated by Marika into the form we see him in now, and that the abyssal was then sealed within him after the fact. Or if the transformation was the sealing. As you mention in this video, damage done to Messmer appears to be shared with the serpent or vice versa, meaning that perhaps it was the serpent who had its eye plucked and the socket sealed with Grace? Something about Messmer's frame is undeniably uncanny and odd. He's unnaturally tall and lanky, odd and serpentine looking. His movements are strange as well. Perhaps his human body is not, in fact, his natural one?
Either way, I wonder if you cared to skim any of my ramblings. At the end of the day, I have my doubts about Messmer's parentage. I wonder whether or not he was a child of Radagon. That same can be said for Melina. But even if they were, I think it's far more likely that Radagon's fears and designs were responsible for their fates, rather than Marika's, and that it would be this internal struggle with her other, far more radical self - perhaps a curse born of wielding the Elden Ring - which actually triggered the Shattering. The cruel fates of all her children; a consequence of the concept of Order being taken too far.
I think the only way to reconcile the timeline is if you assume that Messmer's disgrace, Messmer's crusade, and the Shadowlands being completely cut off from the Lands Between, as three different but closely related events. They tend to be conflated since they happened so long ago, much like how Godwyn's death, Marika shattering the Elden Ring, and the actual Shattering War are often condensed into "the Shattering" despite having significant gaps between them.
At the very least, the Crusade itself only happened after the Liurnian Wars and Radagon married Rennala. It's possible the Crusade occurred during Godfrey's era still, but it's also possible it occurred after Godfrey was banished and when Radagon became Elden Lord. Regardless, the Crusade is a relatively recent thing compared to when most of us thought it would've occurred based off the trailers.
I would assume the Crusade and the Shadowlands being cut off to occur around the same period just because all the important members of the Crusade have no legacy/records in the Lands Between (namely, Messmer, Gaius, and Rellana) and all the records seemed to have been scrubbed from history, something much easier to accomplish if the Crusade launched and then everyone present was unable to return. Maybe not immediately, but after the Crusaders had a solid foothold and were self-sufficient. Either that, or the Shadowlands were sealed and then the Crusade launched, with all of them knowing it's a one way trip, but then the question is how could they reach the Shadowlands, which is why I think it likely they were all already present when it was sealed.
This guy might be starting to become one of my new favourite demigods.
He was born cursed and hated the serpent/flame that was sealed away inside him, but still took on a crusade ordained by his mother to bring death to the Hornsent and to try and gain her approval, and he willingly became this figure of hatred and terror so that no-one else would suffer that burden. And he still stayed somewhat loyal even after beign abandoned for so long: that or he was just in serious denial up to the point of his death.
When you're first going through the Shadow Keep, you can see so many of his regular troops just standing or sitting around lookign absolutely dejected. They know they've been abandoned and they're just done with it all, plus practically every statue of Marika throughout the Land of Shadow has had it's head taken off, save for the one in Messmer's throne room. No way would he let them just walk in and deface it.
Also, I was originally under the impression that Messmer was one of the first demigods born, hence why there is no reference to him anywhere in The Lands Between: it would have been easy to bury his existence and that of the LOS before the others came along...but the fact he and Melina likely came from a later generation makes sense too. Both striken from the records for what they were/did.
Also, the fact Marika had so many cursed children probably reinforces the fact she was being punished for the Original Sin she commited when she first ascended to Godhood.
But what is the original sin that she committed? I’m still not sure
@@izak1548 In the story trailer, Miquella talks about 'the seduction and the betrayal', and we see Marika take golden threads from a body before she passes through the Divine Gate.
My inference is that she pretended to be allied with the Hornsent to get close enough to their 'god', then murdered them and stole their divinity to become a god herself and pass through the gate. That could be the Original Sin.
YES first specific lore video of the DLC I can't wait for the rest. Let the good time flow, Smough!
Thanks my friend! Hope you enjoyed my take
Another great video!
Jesus I'm only realising it now but the reason Melinas right eye is no longer filled with grace in the Frenzied flame ending is because the Erdtree has been destroyed, so its only her Destined Death eye left. She's 100% the GEQ 😂
10:00 Until the DLC, there was still the reasonable possibility that she's speaking of another mother in a previous form of the Erdtree. In fact, we really don't have anything but an educated guess based on "his sister" in a game that has featured several misdirects.
LET'S FREAKIN' GO
Hey bro! Thanks for your awesome Abyssal Insights
@@SmoughTown Hey! Thanks for citing it in this video! I'm watching it right now. I love your linking of the red eyes on the serpent to the red eyes on Manus. I never thought of that!
Your videos have been feeding me throughout this entire DLC cycle and this is one I've been waiting for. Love your theorycrafting and keep up the good work!
My pleasure! Thank you so much for the support
I was wondering if the snake being hated by the Erdtree society is connected to Messmer - if it is hated because of what it did to Messmer.
I'm not sure if Messmer was born with two curses, snake and fire both. In the Messmer's Orb incantation, it is mentioned that "Messmer despised his own fire. Time and time again he hoped to rid himself of it, but ever did it burn." So what if Messmer was born with the curse of fire only and the snake came later? What if the snake was something he perceived as a means of trying to rid himself of the fire? A plan that backfired, resulted in his condition and the snake being viewed as a traitor.
Messmer's Kindling refers to his fire as "The kindling that burned inside Messmer the Impaler. A dark thing, eaten away at by a wicked serpent." So essentially the snake is there to curb (or devour) his fire. If Messmer was looking for a way to get rid of the fire and the snake promised to help only to try and take over Messmer's body for its own snakey purposes, that would definitely warrant the snake being called a traitor and pissing Marika off enough to erase it from her order. Also, it would tie it to Rykard very clearly, as the serpent that likes to devour gods (in Messmer's case from within) would be pulling some similar shenanigans with Rykard much later. It would seem like the serpent wants to merge with one of Marika's children to gain more power, to corrupt them, or to devour them - Messmer is trying to fight it while his seal is in place, but Rykard is embracing it while Marika is unable to intervene.
Also, this would sort of explain why Marika decided to send Messmer away only later. From Gaius' remembrance, we know Messmer was living with the rest of the pantheon when Radahn was a kid, plus Gaius even studied gravitational magic with Radahn in Sellia before Messmer's crusade started. So Messmer was still okay to be around the rest of the family for quite a while. It could be because his condition was not that apparent for a long time or Marika saw him as more useful than inconvenient, but I'm inclined to think that something happened to Messmer that made him suddenly extra inconvenient to be around the royal family.
I believe the wrath from afar incantation outright says that when the elden ring was shattered, it was felt by adherents to the golden order in the shadow realm. Makes sense, as it’s an erdtree incantation and it’s used by a handful of fire knights
31:42 Minor correction - the Altar of Light and Altar of Darkness are found in the two altars that you did *not* pull the sheathed sword from. So theoretically if you take the sword from Rauh, the Light altar would be in Unte or the Catacombs. I'm not sure how it's decided which specifically is light or dark - on my first playthrough I got the sword in Unte, so the Altar of Light was in Rauh and the Altar of Darkness was in the Catacombs.
Your overall point stands - the altars and sword are most likely relics of Rauh.
Perfect, thanks for confirming that! I must have got them in the same order every time
If I were to guess, one of them is always Dark unless it's the first, one is always Light unless it's the first, and the third one takes the place of whichever you got the stone-word from.
"Mother... Marika... A Curse Upon Thee..."
The fact that the base serpent takes the same damage that Messmer does reminds me of the strange sympathetic link between Marika/Radagon and Miquella/St. Trina. I wonder if Messmer and the serpent have a similar relationship? If so, maybe the Gloam Eyed Queen is that to Melina?
The amount of effort and attentiveness to detail is astounding. My comprehension for the story of Elden Ring can be credited to you and other lore channels.
Perhaps the reason Radahn was holding back the stars was to prevent more outer gods cursing the demigod brethren of his friend Messmer?
Wich would put further emphasis on Radahn's pure kindness in the eyes of Miquella
The day that Smough uploads a new video, it instantly becomes the highlight of the day.
Too kind my friend! Thank you so much
@@SmoughTown honestly I was waiting for this one lol his story is actually kinda tragic in a way and I needed to know more.
I think it’s also interesting that the black knights of Messmer also have characteristics of the Crucible. I feel the whole army used heresy to win Marika’s war
There’s one contradiction that I noticed in your timeline. In the Regal Omen Bairn item description we’re told that Omen of royal blood are kept underground since birth. That means that by the time Morgott and Mohg were born, Erdtree was already in opposition to the Crucible and thus the Crusade must have happened before. Otherwise, I’m sure Hornsent would certainly rebel at the persecution of those they consider to be divine.
This also makes me believe that Radahn (and perhaps his siblings) were born before the Omen twins. Godwyn would still be the first of demigods, not counting Messmer and Melina, then Radahn (and possibly his siblings), then Morgott and Mohg. Rykard and Ranni might have been born before or after Morgott and Mohg, either works.
Lastly, there’s another possibility that I’d like to address - the chance that the birth of Morgott and Mohg as Omen would compel Marika to launch the Crusade. Sure, that goes against the theory that Hornsent cursed Marika’s children to be born with horns, but imho evidences for it have always been circumstantial. Here however, we finally have a reason for why Marika waited for so long to launch the Crusade. She obviously hated the Crucible culture because of how it led to the genocide of her people, but she was content with letting it be, as long as it stayed far away from her home. But when her own children were influenced by the Crucible… well… that must have devastated her to say the least, making her order the slaying of all Hornsent.
Thank you for your dedication to research into the in-game text on this, this was a great video on messmer (who was probably the character in the dlc i knew the least about until now, lol). I like that he's both obviously villainous, and sympathetic.
Cant wait until miquella's video, there are many who dont truly know the text of his story and have only consumed it through memes or speculation. there arent really many well researched videos on him yet, same with new radahn lore
Thanks as always for the support bud.
Can't wait for my Miquella video either - hope to give him the justice he deserves
Messmer: Soon, Tarnished, wilt thou be taken in the jaws of the abyssal serpent, shorn of light.
Me: THERE’S ANOTHER SERPENT?!
Something i love about Eldan Ring is how they tell some of the story through character design. Messmer has this very human and kind look to his face that stands in contrast to his elongated and disproportionate body that told me even before this video that he was a genuinely kind person deep down. Learning he had these deep connections to his soldiers and his devotion to his mother to the point of villainizing himself only confirms what i thought. This is the same thing they did to Morgott, Radahn, and Malenia, human faces obscured by disfigurment, rot, and metal respectively.
Its just a fun detail that i enjoyed.
9:00 It's like they forgot about giving even the smallest scrap of a clue for Melina until the last minute. She's the primary NPC in our main quest! Sheesh
All i had to do was hear messmers ost and gear radagons theme to realize hes a child of marika/radagon
On the topic of the coliseum:
I wonder if the gladiators were not previously dressed in snakes prior to the purge.
While i think the coliseums were started during Godfrey’s time, it wouldnt make sense for the lions to be there during that time because of Godfrey’s connection to Sarosh, and his title as King Regent.
But it would make sense if the lions were incorporated at the same time as the snake iconography, after the crusade.
At that point in time, the view towards that area would have waned.
Additionally, it would make the combat between the snake gladiators and the lions more meaningful, depicting the Divine Beast hunt from Messmer’s crusade.
They it would
1:35:43 I'm glad I'm not the only one who messes up "J.R.R. Tolkin" and "George R.R. Martin" lol
Props for making a long and thorough video so soon, you want to hear everything about this dlc once you're done lol
Much appreciated!
I personally am still on the fence about who is messmers father. I believe someone else mentioned in the comments that Godwyn is yet to have a “dual opposite” and messmer definitely fits the bill in every regard. Initially the hair would be indicative of radagons lineage, but what if the color was meant to throw us off the scent? The opposite of gold, the infamous enemy of the golden order, is a red flame. Could be the reason why messmers hair is red, to directly contrast godwyns luscious locks.
I imagine you're saving the discussion about the Jarring/Sainthood ritual for another video but there's a section within Shadow Keep that was really fascinating where it seemed like Messmer's forces were experimenting, maybe even trying to figure out a way to separate or "save" the shamans within the Jar Innards. May be another layer to Messmer in trying to undo the atrocities of what happened to his mother's people?
Another weird point for that serpent outside of Bonny; it's placement roughly matches up to where the Erdtree is placed on the base game map (accounting for resizing and positioning of the Surpressing Pillar). And accounting for what Shabriri says, that the Erdtree "devides and distinguishes", it personally just seems like an attempt to help show how both lands inhabit the same space.
As to why the snake skin looks like Eiglay, it could very well just be a sort of reusing of assets. But assuming it's not, maybe it's supposed to be a kind of parallel to the Frenzied Flame and it's lords. In the same way that there can me many "lords" but only one true "Lord" of the flame and world, maybe there's also "serpents" but one true "Serpent" that is to appose all things. The Abysal Serpent and Eiglay though different, are pretty much the exact same in nature. Both being a sort of end point in the funneling of power, maybe Eiglay is a sort of "failed version" of the Abysal Serpent that was born into the Lands Between. Or much more fittingly, that they are just two sides of one coin. Because if you notice; Messmer and the A.S represent a melting of all things into nothingness to reach a higher power, Eiglay represents a melting of "gods" specifically in order to BUILD UP to divinity.
Messmer's boss theme also has the same leitmotif as Radagon's boss theme, so they're basically confirming their connection
Messmer is the boss that humbled me on my first play through. Definitely top 5 best fights in Elden ring imo!
Scadutree spells Shadowtree. Amazing video, as always. Thank you!
i believe melina and messmer are actually the children of the gloam eyed queen and radagon. they inherit the red hair of their father, but they also share more traits that point to the GEQ, such as messmer’s snakes and melina’s gloam eye.
it leads me to part 2 of my theory, which is that the GEQ used to be marika’s alter ego. the theme of separating light and dark is explored a lot in the dlc. marika was the one to do this, cast aside shadow in favor of light. as depicted in the story trailer, this was at the point of her ascension to godhood, which we now know can involve banishing your alter ego (like miquella and st trina). it also explains how we see marika reaching into godskin cloth at the beginning of the trailer, the counterpart she killed.
in conclusion, i agree melina and messmer were children of marika/radagon. i just think marika was still, at the time, a merged self with the GEQ. she seduced radagon only to betray him in kind, and take him on as her new other self. merging her flesh with another, as shamans are known to be able to do
The reason I believe the Land of Shadow was veiled upon Marika becoming a god is the purpose it seems to serve in the Golden Order, namely the suppression of death. The Suppressing Pillar seems to indicate that the Land of Shadow exists to suppress death. If the Land of the Scadutree for some time existed unveiled and attached to the Lands Between I don’t see how it could serve that function: it would imply that for some time death was allowed to exist in the Lands Between under the Golden Order. However we also know that Destined Death was removed from the Elden Ring and sealed away upon the Golden Order’s creation. It makes much more sense to me if the removal of the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring, Marika becoming a god and vessel of the Elden Ring, the veiling and separation of the Land of Shadow, and the founding of the Golden Order are contemporaneous, just given the function of the Land of Shadow and what it not being immediately separated would imply. The Suppressing Pillar also seems architecturally much older than all of the Messmer-aligned buildings, which would imply it served this function for the Lands Between long before Messmer’s forces arrived.
Also, as you show in this video, the fact that the sealing tree is the same shape as the one part of the shadow tree should suggest that the function of the shadow tree is sealing.
Also, and this is a somewhat tangential point, but the braid which Marika leaves in her village says that she never returned there after leaving the offering. All depictions of Marika in the Lands Between show her missing the braid. If, as some people say, this braid was left here just before she veiled the Land of Shadow as a sort of parting offering much later in the timeline, why is every depiction of Marika, including at the first church, missing that braid? I don’t necessarily believe the reason she is said to have never returned is because of the veiling, but some people believe this, even though all the statuary implies the Lands Between has only ever known a braidless Marika.
The removal of the Rune of Death and the creation of the Scadutree could also serve the purpose of condemning the Hornsent to an eternity of persecution and suffering at the crusaders' hands where even as spirits/shades they can never move on to an afterlife or reincarnate.
I think melina was born similarly to millicent. They're both daughters of Marika and Melania respectively, but aren't technically born of a mother. They also both know techniques only known to their "mothers".
I still believe the whacky theory that the gloam-eyed queen was a flaming abyssal death serpent and Messmer and Melina are the offspring of her and Marika/Radagon. With both offspring inheriting different elements of their parents.
Yeah something similar to this.
I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it in the comments, but I believe "hornsent" is the term they gave themselves or were called before/during the crusade, and that "omen" is more or less a slur/derogatory term for hornsent that arose later after a campaign of otherizing and demonizing them. Aside from omenkillers, there are -- as far as I know -- no references to "omen" in the DLC; anyone bearing horns is simply called "hornsent," and multiple item descriptions refer to horns as sacred or spiritual, while never mentioning a "curse."
Though, considering the Seedbed Curse and the Dung Eater, hornsent looking mostly unlike any "omen" we see in the base game, and omenkillers appearing in the Land of Shadow, I'm not sure how much weight this holds (although, omenkillers look like they could be a mockery of hornsent warriors??). This was just the vibe I got from the DLC. I'm listening to this as I play FFXIV, though, so maybe I missed something.
I think you missed a detail, a connection, about the Omen curse and the Horsent.
From a npc spirit near Scorched Ruins, we see him facing a tree full of Horsent bodies, he says:
"I know... All your resentment lingers yet... The raw stuff from which I shall surely forge a curse. Upon the dastard Messmer's head. Upon Marika's children each and all."
This sound a lot like Dung Eater's quotes and his seedbed curse transforming people into omens.
For me, this is where the curse of the Omen originated, that plagued the royals at Leyndell, the Omen curse seem to seek the royals of Leyndell in particular, the children of Marika.
The Horsernt seem to cursed Marika's offspring with an exagerated overgrown of horns, that were sacred for them, for the hornsent the horns grown more only on the head and don't hurt them, but in the omen's case is an exaggerated overgrown of horns that hurts and hunt them in their dreams, the spirits that hunt the omens were probably from the grudge of the horsent people.
I think the Omen Curse was born after the crusade on the land of shadows, and the disdain for crucible related things too, because reminds them of the hornsent people and their traditions and traits, that explain why the Crucible were ok before, with Godfrey, but became a bad thing after.