Against the Invocation of the Saints - with Seth Kasten
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- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
- I'm joined by Seth Kasten of Scholastic Lutherans, who will discuss the topic of his recent book "Against the Invocation of the Saints." He will walk us through his thesis and address the arguments of Easternism in favour of the invocation of the saints.
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Intro music:
To God Be The Glory, composed by William Howard Doane (1832-1916) with descant arranged by Richard M S Irwin (b. 1955). Melody Public Domain, Descant © 2020 Richard M S Irwin
Performance ℗ 2020 Richard M S Irwin. All rights reserved. ISRC: UKTU21900097
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![Against the Invocation of Saints Pt. 1 [Scriptum #26.1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/D7D-fc_g_kg/mqdefault.jpg)
![Against the Invocation of Saints Pt. 1 [Scriptum #26.1]](/img/tr.png)
O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
What do you understand from 1 John 5.16 about prayer for others who have sinned?
What if, if you fall into sin, God requires that you humble yourself before a faithful saint to obtain the help of her prayers for your forgiveness? Acts 8.24 has Simon Magus asking St Peter to pray for him after he sinned. Might God require us to acknowledge the role He gives to the saints to be helpers to Christians by their prayers as well as their godly example?
"perseverance is a gift of Mary"
"grace is rewarded because of Mary's merits"
"Mary's intercession alone separates the elect and reprobate"
-- braindead papist version of St. Augustine
@@anselman3156Your Acts 8:24 example demonstrates an application of going to the priest or minister for spiritual guidance (including asking for their prayers). That’s it. It is not example to establish a doctrine of praying to glorified saints in heaven. You don’t even know if they can hear you. Simon Magnus and Peter were living together and could speak plainly.
If you think that is bad, you should check out the Eastern Orthodox Church's post-communion prayer to Mary.
Finally got to listen all the way through. 100% buying the book. Thank you sir.
I just bought my copy of Against the Invocations of Saints on Amazon and starting already finding new evidence against the invocation of saints. Definitely going to read the whole thing. It's nice to have all those citations carefully arranged.
Another great stream! I appreciated the discussion on Augustine’s writings. I know he seems to be ok with certain practices in the City of God, but I remember being surprised when I read the confessions and noticed that Mary and the saints seem to have played zero role in his conversion or personal piety.
Augustine cites the intercession of saints, the veneration of martyrs numerous times. direct invocation is mentioned most naturally. His contemporaries like Ambrose, Jerome, Chrysostom and the Cappadocians have the same understanding, veneration of relics, operation of miracles by relics and prayer of the saints is a consensus of the fathers, and yes all of these mention prayer TO THE saints and not just a passive relationship with them. If someone is trying to reframe Augustine to make him appear neutral or just tolerant of the practice, they are fooling you.
Augustine is against the practice of certain Gnostic rituals, which used the name of Angels we know from the Bible (Michael, Gabriel), but invoked them with rites, sacrifices, "angelic sigils", and other practices that are a clear syncretism. In no way does his rebuke against these abuses make him deny the universal Christian practice of the intercession of the saints.
@@Jerônimo_de_Estridão Hi, this is just my own observations reading Augustine, not secondary sources. What struck me in general was that while Augustine clearly wouldn’t fit in at a local Bible church he was also clearly not a modern Roman Catholic or an EO. For example, on the Marian dogmas, he only seems to affirm the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin, he basically never mentions the Pope, never once brings up icons and most notably (for me) he never mentions that he personally offered prayers to the Virgin or any saint. The only times the martyrs are mentioned in the Confessions interested me as it is in the context of questionable practices. When he does bring veneration of martyrs up in a positive light (including operation of miracles by relics as you rightly mention) in City of God Bk 8 Ch 27 and especially in Contra Faustum Bk 20 Sec 21 he doesn’t directly mention prayer to saints but rather something that sounds more like a memorial to “excite us to imitate them and to obtain a share in their merits, and the assistance of their prayers”. He also points out that while “we constantly sacrifice to God in memory of the martyrs” however, any sort of sacrifice even fasting unto a martyr is forbidden. Finally, in On the Care of the Dead Augustine basically concludes that he has no idea whether the martyrs can actually hear our prayers or whether God or angels are the ones working miracles in the name of martyrs.
@@Jerônimo_de_Estridãocould u give me a quote where Augustine prays to the saints .
@@aajaifenn “A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers” (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).
“There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended” (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).
“At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps” (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).
“Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ” (The City of God 20:9:2 [A.D. 419]).
@@felixiusbaqiHello, I noticed that Clement of Alexandria, Cyril of Jerusalem, and Gregory of Nysa mention in their writings of the saints above the altar/Eucharistic liturgy the saints pray for us when we ask them above the altar. Now I noticed Augustine saying the same thing. So Augustine is seen to be implying the exact same concept.
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you brother for writing this book!!! Please write one on ICONS also!!! I don't know of a single modern book on Icons from a Lutheran perspective!
Would love to see a discussion between ya'll and Jonah M Saller on this
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. - Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. - John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
- Acts 3:19
:)
No one ever talks about the fact that we don’t actually know whether or not the “saints” they pray to are actually saved.
Your opinion doesn't matter. It works within the Catholic framework. Since the Holy See believes to have the keys to the kingdom of heaven, it knows and recognizes some of the Saints, there's arguably many more Saints in heaven than can be known, but canonization is a lengthy process at the end of which the Pope by virtue of the historical assessment infallibly canonizes a Saint. The Catholic Church has even restricted the veneration of ancient local "Saints" about whose existence and life there isn't enough historical reliability.
@@dvinb It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Simply saying "it works" and then listing things the RCC does is not an argument.
@hisservant7200 But the problem is that is not an exhaustive list of saints that the RCC prays to.
@@TKK0812 I'm not a Catholic. But you don't have to doubt the sainthood of Saints in order to deny their invocation and intercession. As I have said, you shouldn't base your rejection of invocation/intercession on the argument that you, within your theological system, don't know who is a Saint and who isn't. Catholics know it within their system, so there's know problem there. Furthermore, if you read their hagiographies, you will see their good works and spiritual lives and naturally come to the conclusion that they are in heaven, even though within your system only heaven knows this with absolute certainty. To verbally deny the status of salvation to a Christian who was demonstrably sincere throughout his lifetime is an impious thing.
@@dvinb *But you don't have to doubt the sainthood of Saints in order to deny their invocation and intercession*
This is just begging the question.
*Catholics know it within their system, so there's know problem there*
Catholics CLAIM it within their system, but that's my whole point is they don't know. Only the Lord knows the hearts of men.
*Furthermore, if you read their hagiographies, you will see their good works and spiritual lives and naturally come to the conclusion that they are in heaven, even though within your system only heaven knows this with absolute certainty*
Completely irrelevant.
Matthew 7:21-24 / “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
MANY who claim Christ as Lord and demonstrate works will be turned away. I could quote countless scriptures to further my point. All you're saying is "bro, trust them, it works for them" and my point is that scripture disagrees, and many, many catholics are more than likely praying to people who were not born again and are not spending an eternity with God. Reiterating that Catholics have a good gut feel about this is not convincing or scriptural.
Full disclaimer: I am not Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. I am currently discerning between them and Protestantism. The issue of invocation of saints is one of the key issues I have been looking at to make a decision on this topic. A while back, I watched Jordan Cooper's videos on this subject and was persuaded by his argument that praying to saints was a later accretion. However, I have reconsidered this position recently. I still have many reservations about the way invocation of saints is practiced in the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches but I felt that Seth played fast and loose with many of his historical arguments and I would like to correct the record for the sake of historical accuracy.
In describing Origen's remarks in On Prayer, Mr. Kasten implied that Origen thought that it is useless to give thanksgiving to saints and we should just give thanksgiving to Christ instead. Here is the full quote from Origen:
"Now request and intercession and thanksgiving, it is not out of place to offer even to men-the two latter, intercession and thanksgiving, not only to saintly men but also to others. But request to saints alone, should some Paul or Peter appear, to benefit us by making us worthy to obtain the authority which has been given to them to forgive sins-with this addition indeed that, even should a man not be a saint and we have wronged him, we are permitted our becoming conscious of our sin against him to make request even of such, that he extend pardon to us who have wronged him.
Yet if we are offering thanksgiving to men who are saints, how much more should we give thanks to Christ, who has under the Father’s will conferred so many benefactions upon us?"
Origen does not say we shouldn't make thanksgiving to saints but says that we should also do so to Christ. I will not argue that Origen supported the invocation of saints but I think his remarks in Against Celsus do not positively prove that he opposed asking departed saints to intercede on our behalf.
An ante-Nicene testimony that Mr. Kasten did not bring up in his video but he may have mentioned in his book is from Eusebius, in Chapter 11 of Book 13 of his Preparatio Evangelica. First he quotes Plato:
"'Of those then who have been killed in war, shall we not say in the first place that any one who died an honorable death was of the golden race?
'Most certainly.
'But when any of such a race as this have died, shall we not believe Hesiod, that:
"These still on earth as holy daemons dwell,
Brave guardians of mankind from every ill"?
'Yes, we shall believe him.
'Shall we then inquire of the god how we ought to class daemons and deities, and with what difference, and place them thus in whatever way he may direct?
'Of course we shall.
'And for all time to come, believing them to have become daemons, we shall so serve and worship their tombs; and these same customs we shall observe, when from old age or any other cause any one dies of those who have been judged pre-eminently good in life? '"
He then says: "These customs also may fitly be adopted on the death of those beloved of God, whom you would not do wrong in calling soldiers of the true religion. Hence comes also our custom of visiting their tombs, and offering our prayers beside them, and honoring their blessed souls, believing that we do this with good reason."
Given Eusebius' extensive knowledge of ante-Nicene history and his seeming opposition to pagan syncretism when it came to the making of images, I think this might be important evidence for ante-Nicene invocation of saints.
(Continued...)
Before getting to Augustine, I would like to quote some of the other 4th century Fathers both East and West
First, Cyril of Jerusalem in his 23rd Catechetical Lecture, describing the liturgy: "Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition." This appears to be a description of invocation. He describes this without further comment, with no awareness that he is defending a new or controversial practice. We also have no record of controversy or quarrel over invocations of saints being added to the liturgy which one would expect to see if it were a novel practice. To quote from a letter from Augustine to Jerome on the reaction to a much more minor liturgical change: "A certain bishop, one of our brethren, having introduced in the church over which he presides the reading of your version, came upon a word in the book of the prophet Jonah, of which you have given a very different rendering from that which had been of old familiar to the senses and memory of all the worshippers, and had been chanted for so many generations in the church. Thereupon arose such a tumult in the congregation, especially among the Greeks, correcting what had been read, and denouncing the translation as false"
The pagan emperor Julian in the early 360s complains that the Christians filled the entire world with tombs and sepulchres and grovel at them.
Gregory Nazianzen says this about the martyrs in this first oration against Julian: "Hadst thou no respect for the victims slain for Christ's sake? Didst thou not fear those mighty champions, that John, that Peter, Paul, James, Stephen, Luke, Andrew, and Thecla? And those who after them, and before them, faced danger in the cause of Truth, and who confronted the fire, the sword, the wild beasts, the tyrants, with joy, and evils either present or threatening, as though they were in the bodies of others, or rather as if released from the body! And what for? That they might not betray the Truth, even as far as a word goes; those to whom belong the great honours and festivals; those by whom devils are cast out and diseases healed; to whom belong manifestations of future events, and to whom belong prophecies; whose very bodies possess equal power with their holy souls, whether touched or worshipped; of whom even the drops of the blood and little relics of their passion, produce equal effect with their bodies!"
www.tertullian.org/fathers/gregory_nazianzen_2_oration4.htm
From the end of his panegyric on Athanasius: "And may you cast upon us from above a propitious glance, and conduct this people in its perfect worship of the perfect Trinity, which, as Father, Son, Holy Ghost, we contemplate and adore. And may thou, if my lot be peaceful, possess and aid me in my pastoral charge, or if it pass through struggles, uphold me, or take me to you, and set me with yourself and those like you (though I have asked a great thing) in Christ Himself, our Lord, to whom be all glory, honour, and power for evermore."
www.newadvent.org/fathers/310221.htm
From his 24th oration describing how a Christian virgin named Justina martyred in the early 4th century defended herself from a sorcerer trying to seduce her: "Invoking these (Christ) and still other models and beseeching the
Virgin Mary to help a virgin in distress, she takes refuge in a regimen of fasting and sleeping on the ground." Even though the story related here may be apocryphal, he relates it with no awareness that it might be false which is hard to square with invocation of the saints being a post-Nicene innovation.
www.amazon.com/Select-Orations-Fathers-Church-Patristic/dp/0813227690
Basil of Caesarea in his homily on the Forty Martyrs of Sebaste:
"The one who is in trouble takes refuge with the forty, the one who rejoices runs off to them-the former to find release from his difficulties, the latter to protect his prosperity. Here is found a pious woman, begging for the return of her husband who is away, for his safety because he is sick. Let your petitions be with the martyrs."
www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2020/03/homily-on-forty-martyrs-of-sebaste-st.html
Gregory of Nyssa in his homily on the Forty Martys:
"What greater love do we have than this faithful multitude of witnesses who displayed fortitude and unanimity? Let us neither be insensitive nor ungrateful towards them. With intercessors like these, we never lack their prayers and entreaties. The witness of their trust and hope is God when he spoke with Abraham. Abraham interceded with God not to destroy the city if he found ten just men in Sodom, not simply forty (Gen 18.32). We, like the Apostle, have a great cloud of witnesses and pronounce blessed those who rejoice in hope, persist in prayer, and recall the saints (Heb 12.1). The forty martyrs are powerful opponents against our enemies and worthy advocates before the Lord. Let a Christian depend upon their hope, resist the devil's temptations, rise against evil men and the seething wrath of tyrants which resembles the sea's ferocity."
web.archive.org/web/20210812230200/www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/0330-0395,_Gregorius_Nyssenus,_The_First_Homily_Concerning_The_Forty_Martyrs,_EN.doc
Gregory of Nyssa in his homily on the martyr Theodore:
"These spectacles strike the senses and delight the eye by drawing us near to [the martyr's] tomb which we believe to be both a sanctification and blessing. If anyone takes dust from the martyr's resting place, it is a gift and a deserving treasure. Should a person have both the good fortune and permission to touch the relics, this experience is a highly valued prize and seems like a dream both to those who were cured and whose wish was fulfilled. The body appears as if it were alive and healthy: the eyes, mouth, ears, as well as the other senses are a cause for pouring out tears of reverence and emotion. In this way one implores the martyr who intercedes on our behalf and is an attendant of God for imparting those favors and blessings which people seek."
www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/02/panegyric-to-great-martyr-theodore-tyro.html
John Chrysostom in his homily on Juventinus and Maximinus:
"And so let's constantly spend time visiting them, and touch their coffin and embrace their relics with faith, that we might gain some blessing from them. For just as soldiers, showing off the wounds which they received in battle, boldly converse with the emperor, so too these martyrs, by brandishing in their hands the heads that were cut off and putting them on public display, are easily able to procure everything we wish from the King of heaven."
www.amazon.com/Saints-Vladimirs-Seminary-Popular-Patristics/dp/088141302X
John Chrysostom in his 26th homily on 2nd Corinthians:
"And the tombs of the servants of the Crucified are more splendid than the palaces of kings; not for the size and beauty of the buildings, (yet even in this they surpass them,) but, what is far more, in the zeal of those who frequent them. For he that wears the purple himself goes to embrace those tombs, and, laying aside his pride, stands begging the saints to be his advocates with God, and he that has the diadem implores the tent-maker and the fisherman, though dead, to be his patrons. Will you dare then, tell me, to call the Lord of these dead; whose servants even after their decease are the patrons of the kings of the world?"
www.newadvent.org/fathers/26027.htm
Ambrose of Milan in Concerning Widowhood:
"The angels must be entreated for us, who have been to us as guards; the martyrs must be entreated, whose patronage we seem to claim for ourselves by the pledge as it were of their bodily remains. They can entreat for our sins, who, if they had any sins, washed them in their own blood; for they are the martyrs of God, our leaders, the beholders of our life and of our actions. Let us not be ashamed to take them as intercessors for our weakness, for they themselves knew the weaknesses of the body, even when they overcame."
www.newadvent.org/fathers/3408.htm
(Continued...)
Augustine in Sermon 285 on the martyrs Castus and Aemilius:
"The justice of the martyrs is perfect, because they have been perfected by their sufferings. That's why they aren't prayed for in the Church. The other faithful departed are prayed for, not the martyrs; they left the world, you see, so perfected that they are not our dependents, but our advocates. And this too, not in themselves, but in the one to whom as their head they have stuck close as his. members. He, you see, is indeed the one advocate, who intercedes for us, seated at the right hand of the Father (Rom 8:34); but the one advocate in the same way as the one shepherd. Because he must, he said, bring those sheep too,
which are not of this fold (Jn 10:16). So Christ is a shepherd, Peter not a shepherd? Indeed Peter too is a shepherd,
and all others like him are without the slightest doubt shepherds, pastors. I mean, if he isn't a shepherd, how can he be told, Feed my sheep (Jn 21:17)? But all the same, the real shepherd is the one who feeds his own sheep. Peter, you see, was
not told "Feed your sheep," but "mine." So Peter is a shepherd, not in himself but in the body of the shepherd."
Augustine in Sermon 293B on John the Baptist:
"So then, as we celebrate with our festive gatherings the birthday of this great man, the Lord's forerunner, the blessed John, let us ask for the help of his prayers. Because he is the friend of the bridegroom, you see, he can also obtain for us that we can belong to the bridegroom, that we may be thought worthy to obtain his grace."
Augustine in Sermon 302 on St. Lawrence:
"Is there anyone who doesn't know about the powerful merits of this particular martyr? Did anybody ever pray there, and not
obtain the favor asked for? To how many of the weaker brethren have his merits granted even the temporal benefits which he himself scorned! They were conceded, you see, not so that those who prayed for them might remain in their weakness, but so that by being granted inferior benefits, their love might be stimulated to seek the better ones."
wesleyscholar.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Augustine-Sermons-273-305.pdf
Augustine in Sermon 313D on St. Cyprian:
"This is something our martyr believed, what he taught before he carried it out, what he carried out because he had already taught it. Those to whom Cyprian spoke were taught only by his words; we, though, have his twin teaching, having his words in writing, his example in our memories. So may he encourage us, and pray for us, and obtain for us such a will from the Lord as he himself spoke of in his passion"
Augustine in Sermon 316 on St. Stephen (talking to St. Paul):
"You are reigning with the one you stoned, reigning with Christ. There you can both see each other, can both now hear my sermon; both of you please pray for us. He will listen to you both, the one who crowned you, one first, the other
later on, one who suffered persecution, the other who did the persecuting. The first was a lamb then, the other was a wolf; now, though, both are lambs. May the lambs acknowledge us, and see us in the flock of Christ. May they commend
us to him in their prayers, so as to obtain a quiet and tranquil life for the Church of their Lord."
wesleyscholar.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Augustine-Sermons-306-340.pdf
Augustine in Chapter 21 of Book 20 of Against Faustus the Manichee:
"It is true that Christians pay religious honor to the memory of the martyrs, both to excite us to imitate them and to obtain a share in their merits, and the assistance of their prayers. But we build altars not to any martyr, but to the God of martyrs, although it is to the memory of the martyrs. No one officiating at the altar in the saints' burying-place ever says, We bring an offering to you, O Peter! Or O Paul! Or O Cyprian! The offering is made to God, who gave the crown of martyrdom, while it is in memory of those thus crowned. The emotion is increased by the associations of the place, and love is excited both towards those who are our examples, and towards Him by whose help we may follow such examples. We regard the martyrs with the same affectionate intimacy that we feel towards holy men of God in this life, when we know that their hearts are prepared to endure the same suffering for the truth of the gospel. There is more devotion in our feeling towards the martyrs, because we know that their conflict is over; and we can speak with greater confidence in praise of those already victors in heaven, than of those still combating here. What is properly divine worship, which the Greeks call latria, and for which there is no word in Latin, both in doctrine and in practice, we give only to God. To this worship belongs the offering of sacrifices; as we see in the word idolatry, which means the giving of this worship to idols. Accordingly we never offer, or require any one to offer, sacrifice to a martyr, or to a holy soul, or to any angel. Any one falling into this error is instructed by doctrine, either in the way of correction or of caution. For holy beings themselves, whether saints or angels, refuse to accept what they know to be due to God alone."
www.newadvent.org/fathers/140620.htm
Augustine in Chapter 8 of Book 22 of City of God:
"There was a fellow-townsman of ours at Hippo, Florentius, an old man, religious and poor, who supported himself as a tailor. Having lost his coat, and not having means to buy another, he prayed to the Twenty Martyrs, who have a very celebrated memorial shrine in our town, begging in a distinct voice that he might be clothed. Some scoffing young men, who happened to be present, heard him, and followed him with their sarcasm as he went away, as if he had asked the martyrs for fifty pence to buy a coat. But he, walking on in silence, saw on the shore a great fish, gasping as if just cast up, and having secured it with the good-natured assistance of the youths, he sold it for curing to a cook of the name of Catosus, a good Christian man, telling him how he had come by it, and receiving for it three hundred pence, which he laid out in wool, that his wife might exercise her skill upon, and make into a coat for him. But, on cutting up the fish, the cook found a gold ring in its belly; and immediately, moved with compassion, and influenced, too, by religious fear, gave it up to the man, saying, See how the Twenty Martyrs have clothed you."
www.newadvent.org/fathers/120122.htm
Neither of the quotes Mr. Kasten bought up from Book 8 or Book 22 contradict any of what he said in the above passages. The fact that Christians were accused of worshipping the saints by pagans and Manicheans is itself an interesting data point, as no one has ever accused Protestants of doing that.
Mr. Kasten also gave a misleading summary of On Care to be had for the Dead, implying that Augustine's comments about the dead not knowing about the affairs of the living means he opposed the invocation of saints. Near the end of the work, he says that divine power grants them knowledge of the affairs of the living. He confesses that he doesn't know exactly how the martyrs help those who invoke them but doesn't question the idea that invoking them and asking for their intercession is useful. The whole premise of the treatise is based on a letter he got from another bishop inquiring for a widow whether burying her sun near the remains of a martyr would help him gain the martyr's patronage. This was a common practice in the cult of the saints and Augustine expresses approval for it.
www.newadvent.org/fathers/1316.htm
Here is also one of the quote from Theodoret of Cyrrhus that I referenced in the chat where he supports the invocation of saints:
"But the shrines of the martyrs, glorious in their victory, are grand, magnificent, and conspicuous in size, and manifoldly adorned, and sending forth flashes of beauty. And to these, not once or twice in the year, or even five times, do we go, but ofttimes we hold solemn assemblies, and often every day offer hymns to their Lord ; and they who are in health beg for the preservation of their health ; they that are wrestling with any sickness ask a riddance from their sufferings; the childless men ask for offspring, and barren women for children. And they who have gained this gift ask that their gifts may be preserved perfect; and those who are setting out upon any journey implore them to become their fellow-travellers and guides on the way; and they who. have gained their return offer the acknowledgment of the favour, drawing nigh to them, not as gods, but approaching them as devout men, and beseeching them to be intercessors on their behalf. But that they who faithfully ask obtain the things which they ask, their votive offerings clearly testify, manifesting the healing; for some offer models of eyes, others of feet, and others of hands ; and some of them fashioned of gold, others of silver. For their Lord receives the small and cheap things too, measuring the gift by the power of the offerer. But the things which are there testify the ceasing of the sufferings, whereby they are placed as memorials by those who have become whole. And these things proclaim the power of those buried there; and their power shows that their God is the true God" - A Cure for Pagan Maladies, Book 8
(Continued...)
Peter Brown's magisterial work on this subject shows just how widespread the cult of the saints and all its associated practices were in the late antique and early medieval West. The scholarly literature, both sympathetic and sympathetic, testifies to this as well. Gregory of Tours, the Frankish historian of the 6th century, records many stories of miracles ascribed to the intercession of saints and their relics. The Gregorian Canon has invocation of saints and as far as I know there was no controversy about this. This Wikipedia article talks about the cult of the saints in Anglo-Saxon England: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_saints_in_Anglo-Saxon_England. Whatever you want to say about the origin of the cult of the saints, it is not a credible argument that it was not a ubiquitous part of religious life in the West by the Carolingian era. Given this story about Einhard and relics: conciliarpost.com/lives-of-saints/einhard-and-the-sacred-relics-a-forgotten-story-of-the-dark-ages/, which is well in line with practice both before and after this period, whatever he was talking about, it is highly unlikely he was ignorant of the invocation of saints simpliciter.
Mr. Kasten's thesis ultimately leaves an inexplicable lacuna. If this practice was really as foreign to the ante-Nicene church as he portrays it, given how forcefully the theologians in the early church reacted whatever smacked to them of innovation or novelty, how in the 4th century the church spent over half a century tearing itself over a diphthong to paraphrase Edward Gibbon, what we should expect is significant conflict between groups that advocated this practice and groups that didn't and clear and repeated public condemnation of the doctrine. If in a modern LCMS, PCA, or SBC church people started publicly invoking the saints, you can be sure all hell would break loose. Instead, we find the most prominent theologians of the church East to West accepting the practice in its vitals, contenting themselves with correcting abuses, and acting with no awareness that they are supporting a new practice.
*sympathetic and hostile
@TheOtherPaul you might want to take a look at this and tell Seth about it. I feel like all three main Christianity (Prot, RC, Chalcedonian EO) all read things anachronistically. I would love to find a Christian historian and author who tries to explain what the early church fathers taught without bias. Maybe we should hire atheist scholars to write about the early church fathers.
What are those six stonking victorian volumes over Paul's shoulder?
A 100+ year old Latin edition of the Summa
@@TheOtherPaul Sweet, that is truly epic.
Great work.
More please
Check Shoemaker's discussion on the Sub Tuum Papyrus, most scholars put it in the early IV century. Some in the III, including the original expert who analyse it, although the publisher went on a more moderate date (because at the time they thought that the term "Theotokos" were not used until IV century, but that have since been deboonked). The guy who claimed VIII century have not been taken seriously on this, he is the same guy who dated an assumption of mary manuscript to the 2nd century (the one that Albrecht keep talking no-stop), but almost no one agreed.
And Dr. Shoemaker teaches in his books that invoking to the Virgin Mary is not a 1st century practice by the historical Apostles, but arose later. He even documents when he thinks it got started. And the opposition to the growing, fringe Marian cult among Christians in the 4th century. And his research on the Bodily Assumption is devasting both to Rome and to Eastern Orthodox, showing that it was not taught by the 1st century historical Apostles.
It was Will Weedon. The star trek actor is Wil Wheaton. Close!
1:13:26 Stop flexing your gigachad face, Paul.
The Synod of Laodicea is very clear on the veneration of the martyrs, and that the people seek them. There were no reproval of this. The canon where they mentioned the angelic invocations is explictly an extra ecclesia cult, and the next canons talk about amulets, phylacteries and magic. They were comdemning syncretism and gnosticism but at the same time they were approving the shrine of the Martyrs.
"No Christian shall forsake the martyrs of Christ, and turn to false martyrs, that is, to those of the heretics, or those who formerly were heretics; for they are aliens from God. Let those, therefore, who go after them, be anathema."
What "turn to" means? That people seek their help!
"The nativities of Martyrs are not to be celebrated in Lent, but commemorations of the holy Martyrs are to be made on the Sabbaths and Lord's days."
So, people have the Martyrs on their religious celebration.
"The members of the Church are not allowed to meet in the cemeteries, nor attend the so-called martyries of any of the heretics, for prayer or service; but such as so do, if they be communicants, shall be excommunicated for a time; but if they repent and confess that they have sinned they shall be received."
People went on the Martyria (or shrine of the Martyrs) and graveyards to pray, they "turn to" the Martyrs, the Synod just warn that they should not go after the heretic ones. Not in this synod support the protestant behavior. To use the condemnation of the "angelic invocation" as a general rule against all invocation of the saint is remove the canon completely from its contexts and history (the montanist/gnostic heretics).
"turn to" =\= pray to
it can just mean honor
It's true later in history people went to shrines to pray to the saints but you need evidence that is what was going on at shrines at that time
You’re coping just to pray to a guy 🫤
@@taylorbarrett384 clearly they are "turning to" the martyr as someone seeking their help, honor is mentioned elsewhere too.
@@jermoosekek1101 if by "pray" you mean = Ask their intercession, sure, but I dont need to cope, it was the practice of the ancient church. But my "prayer" (in the full sense of how the word is understood today by protestants) is to the Holy Trinity only.
@@Jerônimo_de_Estridão what's mentioned there is commemoration, not invocation
Will there be an e-book version of Seth Kasten's book? Its quite expensive for me when you add costs of shipping to Poland.
Not sure, I'll ask him.
@@TheOtherPaul Thanks!
@@TheOtherPaul Did you ever get an answer to this?
I wonder how much Seth actually understands the thought process of confessional Lutherans who leave for Orthodoxy. The video makes me think this phenomenon is upsetting to him but he’s not approaching Orthodoxy with a genuine curiosity or openness so he’s not comprehending on the most important level what is driving Lutheran laymen and pastors to leave their confessional Lutheran churches for the Orthodox Church.
I guess that is why the video a hour in leaves me flat. It’s another Lutheran attempting to answer Orthodoxy but it’s not an attempt at genuine conversation between two traditions as much as it’s a desperate attempt to keep Lutherans from leaving a sinking ship.
Eastern Orthodox often claim Prots are not focused enough on prayer and fasting and Mikton said he's never met a Protestant that spent 1 hour a day in meditation and prayer.
That sounds more regional and hear-say than anything else. While in Europe and in North-Eastern USA I didn't meet any Catholics that went to mass routinely or prayed anything other then their basic "bless oh lord for these they gifts" prayer before dinner.
In the Southern USA every Catholic I meet is extremely devout. I've also met many devout and many lukewarm Orthodox Christians.
Personally I've known lots of Protestants who spent a couple hours at the beginning of every day praying and meditating on God, especially in rural Appalachian areas.
@etheretherether Of course it's hearsay. But you'd need to take that up with Mikton who said it.
Admittedly, I have not watched all of this, but I believe I have seen enough to get the gist, and I'm pretty underwhelmed. The whole approach seems rather scattered (when asked about Church Fathers, at a couple different points, Seth read a quote and then immediately admitted that the quote was lacking context and that maybe it's not the best example, which seems more than slightly unorganized).
On that note, a couple things. First, Fr. Stephen de Young, both on his podcast _The Whole Counsel of God_ and one he shares with another priest, _The Lord of Spirits_ covers a lot of your points in great detail (including the bit about St. Irenaeus, which misses a great deal of context here). Additionally, his books cover this topic, but more importantly, offer context of the ancient world, which seems to be lacking here.
Second, the assertion of the paintings in the catacombs being "graffiti" demonstrates one thing and one thing only: the bias of the one making the assertion. There is absolutely no historical evidence for such a claim. None. One could make the counterclaim that paintings on walls do not _necessarily_ mean iconography was acceptable, and that is a fair thing to say. But to assert that they were just graffiti is not just ham-fisted but a prime example of anachronistic bias being _a priori_.
Third, is Origen a Church Father or no? There seems to be substantial confusion between the two gentlemen on this topic if one listens closely to what is actually said. Their answers to this question are completely irrelevant to me, but I encourage others to pull on that thread and see where it goes.
Finally, for all the hay that is made about early references and biblical evidence, it seems pretty obvious that St. John's Apocalypse mentions exactly this in Chapter 20, verse 6. Unless you interpret that book in Millerite or Hal Lindsay fashion (instead of actually reading it in its historical context _first_), then it's easy to see that the Saints are Priests ruling with Christ in Heaven.
Addendum: as I pointed out in another comment, the greatest Lutheran historian of all time became Orthodox, and it wasn't a fluke; it was _because of his work_ that he made that journey. And one of the greatest Roman Catholic historians currently alive stated that Pelikan was right on pretty much everything, but this seems to get ignored in favor of some new "hot take."
I am no theologian, as that is not my skill set. But a lot of this seems rather silly to me because it is all subordinate to fundamental claims of authority, for which Lutheranism as a whole has absolutely no grounds for compulsion and, in fact, self-refutes when taking any effort to do so. If you want to beat me at being Christian, then be super humble and super charitable, and you probably will because I am a sinner who regularly fails at that. But if you want to beat the Orthodox Church in relation to authoritative claims on _how_ to be a Christian, you'll need to answer many more fundamental questions than are even approached in this video.
I appreciated a lot of your thoughts here but the last bit regarding authority, self refutation, etc, just makes me think you don't understand epistemology, the nature of reality, and biblical precedent on this point..
@@taylorbarrett384, I'll be honest, I'm not sure how to respond to someone who states that I don't understand the nature of reality. While I fully confess to having only a partial understanding of reality, which only the Holy Trinity fully comprehends, beyond that, I would need something more to go on.
@@Gregorydrobny Sure. Every one of every Church, denomination, religion, ideology, or absence thereof, every single person on the planet, is all equally situated in the exact same epistemic situation when it comes to being able to know truth. The whole idea that an ecclesiastical interpretive authority provides some qualitatively superior access to knowing truth is just erroneous, for you first have to be able to know the authority actually has authority to begin with, which places you in the exact same epistemic position as those you criticize for lacking authority.
@@taylorbarrett384 thank you for clarifying, as this helps. That said, I reject your premise as being demonstrably false on numerous levels.
At least in part, there is merit here, so long as we both ascribe to the reality that Truth is a person, not a prepositional framework of abstract assertions. For example, Truth _is_ Christ, not an assertion _about_ Christ. This is an important distinction in the realm of epistemological inquiry, but one I hope we can agree on.
However, to state that every person from every walk of life is situated in the exact same epistemic situation is not just a bold assertion but one that is entirely lacking in evidence other than to say that we're all currently on earth. That's great but of little value that is germane to the discussion.
The reality in which we live our daily lives _greatly_ impacts how we understand information and knowledge passed on to us. Our upbringing, our genetic makeup, certain generational sins that exist in some families but not others, etc., all radically influence how we come to know truth, so much so that I'm unclear as to how one could argue otherwise (it is entirely possible I am misunderstanding your assertion here, and if so, please forgive me).
Regarding your final claim, no, that is a category mistake, as it conflates levels of knowing as all being the same, which is simply untrue. Presuppositions underlie the assertion that have never been established, thus meaning we would have to backtrack several steps before getting to that point.
@@Gregorydrobny It appears I wasn't clear. What I am saying boils down to this: you may question on what basis a Protestant could have certainty about some matter of the faith, but the same question applies equally to you, in regards to how you could have certainty that Orthodoxy, or any ecclesial office, actually possesses divine authority ; - and there is no form of evidence that you can appeal to which the Protestant cannot appeal to as well (historical, scriptural, logical, spiritual).
I've also noticed vast amounts of Lutherans converting to Eastern Orthodoxy.
The greatest historian in Lutheran history became Orthodox, which should tell everyone something.
@@Gregorydrobny Tells you that you can't take history seriously and be a Protestant. That's why many Anglicans and Lutherans convert to Christianity after studying history.
@@Gregorydrobny How do you define greatest?
@@EmberBright2077, opinions of peers, body of work, national awards, and influence in academia should all be factors, I wager.