How to make Colin Benders-style SIDECHAINED KICK mix with only MATHS
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- Опубликовано: 7 авг 2024
- Here's how the ever-useful @MAKEN0ISE MATHS can give your modular mix the 'sidechained pumping kick' effect, as it can be an envelope follower, VCA, an attenuverter and a final output mixer, all at once! Patch diagram & step-by-step info (if ya have other modules) in description! ↴
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/ mylarmelodies
PATCH DIAGRAM
www.modulargrid.net/e/patches...
(Before you ask, you DO need to invert the envelope followed kick that you feed into the BOTH control, which seems wrong, but this is because negative voltage to that input INCREASES rise and fall time, causing the VCA effect, not the other way round as you might assume! I did, originally. Always RTFM!).
STEP BY STEP RECIPIE
1. Use a multiple or stackcable to 'copy' (aka 'mult') the audio output of your kick.
2. Create an envelope followed version of this kick, by either passing the multed audio thru an envelope follower, or, 'mult' the trigger that triggers the kick, and use THAT to trigger a separate envelope generator which can be customised to create the most satisfying shape. MATHS is also great for that!
3. You now need to pass your 'music' channel (that is, all the audio you want to be 'ducked' by the kick) through a VCA. If you are doing a stereo mix, you'll need two VCAs.
4. Invert the envelope followed kick, with an inverter or attenuverter. This is why utilities rule, they make stuff possible.
5. Get the inverted kick to control the VCA CV level (if you're using two VCAs, use a mult to send it equally to both).
6. Now you need to mix together the percussion audio and the 'ducked' music audio channels together, which will give you your finished mix.
7. Rejoice, dropping your droppy drops harder, for they will drop with great effectiveness, even if your low/mids are a bloody mess.
Shoutout to @Colin Benders for inspiring me to work on getting this effect going. 😘
Here's a podcast I did with Colin, we talk about this effect in that: • Why We Bleep Podcast 0...
I have to admit, i've watched few videos on Maths before, and read the forums, but this is the first time it makes sense to me why this module is different from the other function generators and such...i guess i just needed a simple use case where all the elements are used. Thanks!
"suggested system 4: Just maths on its own"
oops all maths
this is great! Had been using the envelope follower sidechain against kicks but didn't realize you could do it all in maths. great!
Always love to see your videos!! Ive just recently purchased my first couple of modules, and I'm going to be starting a system soon. Your tiny techno system was definitely a huge inspiration!!
Hot damn! I was just watching your older video on maths last night then bam there’s a fresh one in my feed. Will try this this weekend
This is next level, thanks my man!
Ahhh nice! Been thinking about this for some time now 🤔 Glad you made a tutorial explaining it properly 😀🎵
🙌 This is also the first time I've ever used it as a VCA. Only had MATHs for like 8 years... :S
This is brilliant! New uses for Maths every day!
Nice 👍🏻 that is awesome I was looking for something fun to play with. My maths has a bit of dust on it to be honest but I really should use it more. Thanks for the awesome videos as always you rock.
I dig the jam! Wicked indeed!
This is a cool aplication of Maths! However if I was going to have this permanently set up in my rig, I would use a Makenoise optomix to achieve the same effect as it is less HP
yeah but can the optomix send an inverted signal or work as an envelope follower? My understanding is that it works like a dual low pass gate.
@@SuperBen421 the instructions on how to patch optomix as a sort of sidechain compressor are in the manual in the tips and tricks section. It’s pretty cool because you can use channel 1 to generate a kick and channel 2 to sidechain a different voice with the kick that you generated in Channel 1
Annnnd now I need another maths. ;-) outstanding patch, can't wait to try this.
2 have been on my list for a long time. It just does nearly everything.
Awesome!! I wanna go try it now...
Very helpful content, thanks!
Thank you! Cheers!
Now you just need another MATHS for stereo! Great video man!
I am not used to videos this short by you, but loved it anyway! :D
Very good idea!
Excellent!
nice patch !!
Such an awesome module
I use the neutron as a kick. It has an inverter. I send the inverted kick envelope to anything I need to sidechain. 😎
Sweet tip, thanks! 👌
thanks! this is great
I've been scoping out novas recently.. hope you start a run on maths modules and not those 😘. Beautiful tip!
Very clever and helpful. Might reinstall my Maths now...!
Omg those apples 🍎 😍
What can’t Maths do?! Amazing, thanks for showing us❤️
MATHS can't walk to the store.
*yet😆
thanks! super usefull information, even tho i sold my maths :P
keep it up!
When, I thought there was enough with Maths there’s this. That’s fucking wild. I can’t wait to go back home and explore.
Holy fk! *Powers up system to try patch*
Nice, I already had this patched in to my system recently, using maths and a VCA for sidechaining... but this video reminded me that... silly me..I have a maths. I dont even need the VCA (at least for sidechaining)
Brilliant
Genius!
...and a bitcrusher :). But how about a Dynamix? It's smaller, it can do the side chaining for you, it can do the mixing and it also has an overdrive. And it's cheaper because it's discontinued. Regardless, this is an insanely great video as always and there's no stop to all the things Maths can do. It would also be great to use a timed LFO (like Pam or Clep Diaz) to create volume automation so it doesn't always compress when the kick comes in. You'll get the legendary Armin bounce.
Holy damn. I need an envelope follower now.
I love dem apples!
I don't have Maths, but that should work with Rampage and A*B+C from Befaco
lovely
hey thanks man great vid ! do you mabe know if this is possible with the befaco rampage only ? I want to diy it.
Have you found a use for that 1u USB module? I wondered whether I would power my beatstep pro with it.
Pikku Myy! Muumi for ever!
but wait, the summed output also contains the envelope follower DC information from channel 1 though? Or by tapping out of the Channel 1 direct out, it removes it from the summed mix?
Yes, taping from channels removes from sum / OR / Inv :-)
It gets removed from the SUM, MATHS is good like that!
Yup 👍
:O what is juicing up these drums? soo warm and fuzzy...
Ace, can this be achieved with Maths V1? I love my V1 so much but should I get V2?
Haha, aren't I smart for recognising that Keystep stock sequence? ❤️
Ha yes, nailed it. When I played it out I was like, damn, did I write this one? The answer is NOPE, way too in depth to be me, but it sounded great so it had to stay...
@@mylarmelodies Sometimes a Mylar's gotta do what a Mylar's gotta do. Even Arturia was like: damn, this is so good, we're not going to bother to "update" it for the KS37.
Use the kick trigger and send it into an eg, instead of sending the kick sound into an envelope follower, so that you can manually control the side chain amount, give it some more attack, etc
Is there a way to do this with the o-coast as the inverter using a vca & envelope follower?......have tried taking the kick copy to mu streams then out the the maths mixer on the o-coast but can’t seem to get ducking when i invert the signal
Kick trig to SLOPE trig, SLOPE to Attenuverter (input 2 on the mixer), turn the knob the the left and send the resulting cv to DYNMC. Send the audio you’re like to duck into the input to the left of BALANCE.
Alternatively you can use the CONTOUR as a sort of envelope follower, much like MATHS does in this vid.
Ace. I'm gonna need a black Maths.
Great vid! However I don't understand this: At 4:00 we see that Maths silences the melody channel if Rise/Fall are turned UP. But at 5:00 we're applying the inverted (-> negative) envelope to them while the controls are set fully CCW. This should lead to something like negative Rise/Fall times, right? Why don't we just use the un-inverted envelope to simulate that "we turn Rise/Fall up" we see at 4:00? (I know that in most traditional side-chain patches you must invert that envelope to apply negative CV to a VCA, but this scenario seems different, right?)
See description! It's a MATHs quirk
I just gor Maths and decided to try this. Unfortunately my right hand end of cycle LED is stuck on a positive voltage comes out the end of cycle jack. With nothing plugged in the end of cycle turns on and stays on. I can still use that side as an LFO and the end of cycle behaves as expected. But the default behavior is end of cycle always being on. Right now I have everything turned off to see if I just need to let it sit unpowered for a bit. If that doesn't do it I am going to email Make Noise to see what they can tell me. I hope my Maths isn't broken. If it is, I hope I can get a new one. Maths isn't cheap.
I love maths, it's such a handy module. Too bad mine is having issues so soon after getting it.
The Nova makes an appearance! Hope you end up doing your 'revisiting the nova' video some day. But not before I 're buy' one myself, want to pre empt you pushing the prices up =D.
I actually filmed half an hour of first reaction to it, but it was turning rapidly into something quite tedious to watch so I canned it - picture a man pushing beepy buttons with no sound for ten solid minutes going “wait why is it doing that”. It’s so powerful but it IS quite tricky to get the hang of which totally vindicates the confused 17 year old me who found it baffling then. It’s a ‘rewards time spent discovering its secrets’ synth, rather than an ‘impressive on first blush’. I got an amazing sound by filtering white noise on it, the filters are wicked. So it’s recommended, but not as your first synth...
@@mylarmelodies I loved the filters. I probably had the same experience as a 17 year old. Spent a very long time mastering it. Probably isn't a great first synth now, but then it worked for me as a first and only synth and unlikely to afford any other ones for a long time... The market was very different then!
@@mentat7984 It was. For me I direct swapped it for an MS2000, and that was the best decision I ever made. LOVED that synth and rinsed it like no other. Very kindly the person I sold it to is giving it back to me(!) Which is wild, and since I have back my A4000, I think I need to do a BT and recreate my 1999 setup in a corner of my studio, but use it properly this time! I had some great stuff I never 'got' at the time - including Kawai K4R which I would love to mess around with now!
@@mylarmelodies So cool, you should re create it a la BT! I recently got my old RM1x sequencer back up and running after fixing the keys and was amazed at the muscle memory I still had. Banged out some great ideas for tracks straight away. The sounds might not be all that but the sequencing is amazing so great for writing. My 'BT' setup would be RM1x, Nova, Yamaha A5000, Nord Rack 2.
@@mylarmelodies "So it’s recommended, but not as your first synth..."
The Nova WAS my first synth (I have the same desktop model) and it is still largely a mystery. My Minibrute2S and 0-Coast are so much easier. No goddamned menus. I'm hoping they'll help me to figure out the Nova, as I know it's a good machine, and I got it cheap in mint condition. All in good time though. Nice to see it pop up. Also, Maths is definitely on the essential list for when I start a rack later this year. The more YT clips I see on it, the more amazing it looks. Thanks for another great video among so many.
I run my Digitone into my modular setup, straight into the euro level mixer - I just use the headphone output of the digitone which goes way loud enough.
same here, using phone outputs to enter modular reign level :)
@@BruitBlancXYZ It's the price and hp conscious way ;)
Using Maths as a VCA kind of blew my mind
Do you think you could do this with the maths section of the 0-coast?
Some but not all I don’t think!
When I run any audio through a channel of maths, it comes out aggressively filtered even with rise and fall all the way down. Any ideas why that might be?
Yep, have you got any of the other channels active and turned up? They might be, and therefore throwing CV into your audio stream. Any unused channel should be pointing straight up. And the rise and fall should be full anticlockwise?
ohh damn like the black faceplate
Nice take! Whats that trigger sequencer on the left?
Tiptop Audio Circadian Rhythms!
@@mylarmelodies Sure, it looked like but it took me a bit to realize the case rotated 😂 Thx for reply and have a good one!
MOTHFKING SIDECHAIN!
would this be possible with makenoise's function module?
Not exclusively no, sorry!
Darn it.
Any external compressor and a mixer though, yep!
(With a sidechain input)
I hope you listen to your system on good speakers some day.
Thanks, I hope so too.
I wonder if there is going to be a pond monster in this
Great vid. isn’t that technically sidechaining ducking though, as opposed to compression? If anyone is selling a maths hml
Compression is what achieves ducking :)
@@ozzy3ml in sidechain compression, yes, but this technique does not utilize compression, rather amplitude modulation. :)
So many HP... but I need one now.
What is a “pumping side chain mix”??
Sidechain is a type of compression where the compressor is triggered by something - like a kick drum. The overall mix has a "pumping" sound because the compression is happening in time with the music.
LMNC thousand maths mega synth? make it so
I've always wanted to fill a small case with Maths modules, just to refer to it as "the polymaths'
Please dear Sir, make a Maths system! I beg you 🙏
If you want the sideschain to be in affect when the kick is muted, use an inverted envelope. Bonus: you do not need to mult the kickdrum
True dat, though I like in this implementation that the sidechain follows the shape of the kick as I modify it!
well, you kind of touch on it but the slew limiter is a lowpass filter so it's kind of an LPG really.
It is! But you'll have to simulate the vactrol thonk with whatever you control it with
Cool, but it’s no Alexis 3630
"Sidechaining with Maths ? I thought that was a well-known, basic use of it. Surprising that Mylar Melodies makes a video on that. Let's check it anyway.
...Oooooooooooh right. Now THIS is interresting."
PM'd for Maths
And one module to rule them all...
Isn't that a Mutable Instruments one...?
@@mylarmelodies lol. Oh yes, that`s a bit confusing indeed...
4:30 ok, you lost me there. I have Maths for ages but only used it in simple functions. Why does it make a sound quieter if the rise and fall values are increased? Shouldn't this just make the movement of the sound slower?
The rise and fall values are actually decreased(made more negative), because it’s being fed an inverted envelope that controls both the rise and fall ramp. Therefore the intensity of the envelope follower on channel 4 is dampened. It’s admittedly not a super intuitive concept, I find it helpful to think of it as slewing at audio frequencies. Every time channel 4 “sees” A rise in the audio wave, there is a CV over the rate of the rise that is somewhat more negative than it would normally be. Likewise every time channel 4 sees a fall in the audio wave, there is a CV over the rate of the fall that is somewhat more negative than it would “normally’” be. Do think of it more in terms of the whole envelope, that is controlling the “vca”, The envelope is overall smaller, this side chain instrument has reduced intensity
As I understand it: So you can use MATHS as a 'lag processor', or 'slew limiter', which 'rounds off' the start and end of a waveform. For example - if you fed a square wave LFO into either channel 1 or 4 inputs, you can use the 'Rise' control to turn that square LFO into a sawtooth LFO, ramping up. Likewise you can use the 'Fall' control to make it into a sawtooth ramping down. In that way you can think of it as 'smoothing out' CV. In this same way it can smooth out audio rate stuff, too! So this is what you're hearing - it smoothed out into nothing at all....I think!! Either way...it works!
When there’s no bass drum, the inverted envelope is high, so the rise and fall are quick, and channel 4 is tracking the audio input very closely, coming out like the input. When the bass drum appears, the inverted envelope pulls the both cv low, slowing down the rate of following channel 4 until the output can’t follow the audio input well at all and it ends up very attenuated, also with lots of high frequency roll off. Theoretically (I don’t have maths to try it), the output of ch4 will now resemble an attenuated low pass filtered input and so maybe if you could subtract that from the input you’d get more of a multi band sidechain compressor effect where only the bass is removed from ch4 when the kick is present. That’s be nice to try....
you’re so positive it makes me sick (I kid I kid), I’d like to see a video about things you don’t like! A module that you thought would blow your tits off, but you never gelled with. Something you can’t get to work. A brand that wronged you. Show me some negativity! Great work man, keep it up.
Ha - fact is, I don't make demos of things I don't like!! And just because I might not gel with something shouldn't devalue it for someone else - I might not get it, but someone else might! But since you asked, OK, I don't particularly like the new SMD panel attachment redesign on latter 2HP modules...but instead of making a video about it - I told the brand directly via email :) Also...try this: ruclips.net/video/zQ24gKHHH1Y/видео.html
I feel like a dummy posting this as I doubt you're wrong, but why would you invert the voltage coming out of 1? Uninverted, the voltage goes high with the loud elements, and low with the quiet (a positive voltage envelope shape). In your example, you turned up the knobs on channel 4, and if turning them up is the intended aim, wouldn't you want a positive voltage going in? Doesn't positive voltage correlate to a clockwise knob turn?
See description!
@@mylarmelodies Makes sense for a VCA, since you're trying to turn the knobs down, effectively. In this Maths example, you want to turn the knobs up to muffle the sound, right? There's that section where you show raising even one of the two knobs works, but creates artifacts (hence why you do both). Up is positive voltage, no? Legit question, not trying to snark.
@@Anarchosyn "(Before you ask, you DO need to invert the envelope followed kick that you feed into the BOTH control, which seems wrong, but this is because _negative voltage_ to that input INCREASES rise and fall time, causing the VCA effect, not the other way round as you might assume! I did, originally. Always RTFM!)."
@@mylarmelodies Ahh, I so rarely use "both" that I forgot Make Noise inverted how that reacts to voltage compared to the Rise and Fall inputs. Weird, but thank you for reminding me of this.
im planning to build a modular system, but if there was 1 module that i buy, i think it would be maths
@Black Coffee Now im gonna build the simple stuff from scratch.
VCOs and VCFs and all that other good stuff
maths would probably be a bit too complex to build from scratch tho
@Black Coffee Now thanks man, im planning it now for it to be my new years project!
Phrases like the one regarding "...Them apples" look kinda funny on a Brit, at least to a Yank whose spent time in the UK and Ireland. No offense intended, it's just... OK, Americans use "Brass Tacks" all the time, but imagine if you heard me in my heavy New York accent say something like, "Dyer catch a butcher's of that bird's frupnies [thruppenies]?" It would just seem out of place. Know what I mean, yeah?
also, great video, as always.
I need to remember the name of this technique, "sidechained mix", because I hate it. Now, let's continue watching as there sure are other useful things to learn.
Make Noise Maths = $290, 20HP, and a bunch of finagling to get a very basic feature.
Behringer 140 Dual Envelope + LFO = $110, 16HP, and comes with a second envelope (also with +/- envelope out), and an LFO that is too complex to be fully functional within its size constraints.
...Yes, I think I'm becoming a fanboy.
Not sure I follow but I’m happy if you’re happy!
@@mylarmelodies I'm saying you're using a lot of HP and $ to get an inverted form of your ADSR for side-chaining, or ducking, or whatever it's called. If there's something else going on here, then I'm the one that is not following. :P
@@mylarmelodies Yeah, I just tested it and it works fine. You just need an ADSR with an inverted output (such as the Behringer 140) and you'll be able to save your fancy Math module and a bunch of noodles for less mundane things. Hope it helps!
@@buckstarchaser2376 I'm afraid I have to confirm you're not definitely not following this in its entirety, sorry! This video is showing the *complete* creation of a very specific effect in one single module. The Behringer 140 can't do what's done in the video, sorry.
@@mylarmelodies Well, I'm generally wrong about something every hour or so, if you include sleeping hours, but from the video, I gather the following.:
The Maths module (which I don't have, so I'm not familiar with) is turning the average amplitude of your bass into an envelope (which may already exist somewhere in your kit as an envelope already). This envelope is then negated from the VCA control of one or more other instruments, or the post-mixed assemblage of sounds (except for the bass), within the complex Maths unit. The result is that selected - or all - other instruments are getting hushed in relation to the envelope of the bass.
Now, to recreate this effect in Behringer 100M modules (which I later realized have features not commonly found on differently-featured modules, probably leading to my confusion) I took the negative ADSR output from the bass channel envelope, and put it into one of the three CV inputs of each instruments' VCA to hush those to whichever degree desired.
I'm sure there are plenty of other ways to do this on my 'no frills' low-cost system, and those will arguably be different with various unique setups that people may have. This is the core purpose of modular synthesizers to begin with, I thought. My approach (not sure how well it's working so far) is to avoid any module with menus, or a bunch of wild shit that takes more than fiddling around with for a bit to learn. So far, I've found that I'm developing my unique way of understanding how to achieve the effects I'm looking for, and need to carry forward that understanding when addressing others. ...or maybe I still don't get it. Maybe some day I will. Either way, this discussion is helping me learn, which is the value I'm taking here.