We would appreciate it deeply if anyone could pray for us our 12 year old daughter Candice living with Chronic congestive heart failure passed away may 30 2022 peacefully in her sleep she is with the Lord please pray for peace and comfort with God's love conquers all amen we lost our first daughter Angel at 15 years old in 2018 peacefully in her sleep she had Ms this is very tough we are grateful to God for two wonderful daughters and we will be altogether again praying for everyone everyday God bless you all
Dear Lord, please guide Steve and his family through this tremendous heart break and horror. Please, allow him to experience these unbelievably powerful emotions with you by his side. Allow him to clutch to you when all of his surroundings seem to disappear. Please guide him through his thoughts of death and mortality. Please hold him and his family during those terrible late hours of the night. Please remind him of his community, and this everlasting struggle we all share. Give him the courage to lean on others, and to continually lean on you. No matter how exhausting the grief is, give him the strength to continue processing it. Lift his spirit when all of life’s existential dread seems to be collapsing him from the inside. Hold his daughters for him. Even though he feels alone, and feels as if his joy has been stolen from him - show him the peace and serenity his daughters are feeling in heaven with you. If he has a wife, please gift these same blessings to her and all of those deeply impacted by this loss. In Jesus’s name we pray, amen.
I'm so very sorry for your tremendous losses of your precious daughters..😢 Saying a prayer of healing of your broken heart. You may really get help and relief from Griefshare. There may be a group near you.. yiu can look online. Isaiah 61
Father I ask for peace and comfort and blessing on this family that is in so much pain right now. Wrap them in your grace and peace so that they can keep going and keep proclaiming Jesus is King of Kings and LORD of Lords.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:12 📘 The punishment for sins in the afterlife is not the same for everyone; it's geared toward the committed sins. 03:00 🚫 The speaker suggests that people don't stop sinning in hell, which implies a continued degree of punishment. 06:33 💔 Sin is often worse than we perceive it to be. Painful consequences or punishment can help reveal the severity of sin. 09:20 ⛓ Part of hell can be viewed as consequence, not just punishment, as a result of permanent decisions made in life. 14:00 🙏 While understanding of the concept of eternal punishment may be limited now, the speaker believes there will be eventual understanding and trust in God's judgement from a heavenly perspective.
@@SeerSeekingTruthI've seen a "Tammy A.I" be responsible for similar comments on other videos, could very well be a bot posting this to farm interaction/likes/etc
There's a German Gospelrapper who's lyrics really stick with me: "Wenn du von Jesus hier nichts wissen willst, was lässt dich dann glauben, dass du bei ihm im Himmel bist." Translated: If you're not interested in getting to know Jesus here on earth, why do you think you're with him in heaven? Really resonates with me. If people don't want God, they don't want heaven.
Mike, though we are from diferent denominations, you and Micheal from inspireing philosophy did help me in my spiritual struggle, so i wish that you know that i appreciate your commentary. I hope you're having a good life, and may the Lord bless you
Mr Potat, denominations are the work of men. We are One under Christ. There was only One type of first century church that the Apostles and Paul invested in.
And the smoke of their torment will rise forever….what a terrifying statement. If the seriousness of hell were to get into our bones, we wouldn’t be able to stand the idea of losing a single person to hell - even our enemies. Our hearts would break for the lost in our prayer time. Let it be so Lord.
Are you aware that in this verse John is alluding to the destruction of Edom in Isaiah? the smoke from Edom rises forever because they are destroyed forever and will never return. Go to the middle east today and you'll see that there is not actual smoke rising.
@@leavingnc there were many, many verses just like this that I did not truly know the context of. I read them through the eyes of what I had been taught and was actually very surprised to find the Bible talks so much of being consumed, burnt up root and branch, destroyed, they will perish, death, burned up like chaff, hay and stubble. It was quite eye-opening and I don't remember any of my traditionalist pastors ever touching on these verses
@leavingnc I’m referencing Revelation and the judgment of those who take the mark of the beast. The lake of fire is a terrifying judgment that is forever. To diminish it is to allow room for complacency. Annihilationism is a farce. We either tell it to water down the consequence of sin, or we tell it to try and reason with the world on God’s character….He is holy. There is no defense needed. Daniel’s 70th week will be catastrophic, worse than even Noah’s flood. The two witnesses will not be defending the character of God before the world. They’ll speak of holiness, repentance, and judgment - the things that the flesh reacts badly too…hence the whole world wanting to kill them.
This makes me appreciate Jesus’ sacrifice and my redemption SO much more. I was just thinking yesterday that we literally will never forget His sacrifice in heaven, because the very reason we’re there is because of Him! He’s so kind and merciful, that’s why he wants to save us! He’s not trying to push us into some sort of religion, we were literally made FOR a relationship with Him.
And that’s why when people ask why people suffer I always say we cannot see the otherside. We do not understand the glory that waits on other side of the veil.
It is a religion and if you were living in the Roman empire 2,000 years ago you probably would had denied the new religion of Christianity like people today deny any recent (last 300 years) new religion.
I’ve been an annihilationist for a while but I’d still love to hear an in depth study from you. Thank you for covering these challenging topics especially given how much flak I’m sure you open yourself to.
Same although hearing how he describes how life and death could mean something much different spiritually on the other side brings me back to a more middle ground view. I think God allows us to have conflicting and yet biblical views because He wants us to choose unity even in light of brotherly disagreements.
@spencergsmith revelation 5:8 and 19:8 follow the same pattern as 20:14 and 21:8. the lake of fire (the vision) is the 2nd death (john's inspired interpretation). lots of other ones like romans 6:23, 2 thessalonians 1:9, john 10:28 and 2 peter3:7. now think about matthew 25:46 and how Jesus made them clearly distinct as opposites. eternal punishment is not just eternal life with pain or "away from God" added on.
@@spencergsmithwages of sin is death...(not eternal conscious torment) God doesn't desire that ANY perish (there is a finality to that)... We people seem to think that although we shouldn't "beat a dead horse" God can cuz an eye for and eye and tooth for a tooth can't be applied to God...cuz He can do what He wants....(all under the umbrella called "love")
More like people should stop wasting their time on this conjecture and instead to out and really live plus try to make the world a better place through kindness and example. Religion is a waste of time, practiced by the hard of thinking.
You shouldn’t be learning from Mike he’s an idiot and he has no evidence to support any of the stuff that he’s just making up on the way. If you have no critical thinking skills and you’re just gonna listen to Mike without true investigation. You’re delusional. This belief system to burden torture people forever God’s personal holocaust. Then you are a disgusting human being for Even supporting such a disgusting system.
What’s absolutely amazing about this topic is that it shows the bounty of God’s grace. We keep sinning and keep sinning and yet for so many of us God keeps pouring blessings on us anyway….blessings we definitely don’t deserve.
My favorite description of annihilationism ever: "you die die, die die die." 😂 thank you though for saying this could be a biblical view. I'm no biblical Scholar but I read the bible on my own and watch smarter than me guys like you a lot and the first time I was introduced to the idea something just clicked in my brain like ah that makes so much sense! Like just logically if the Bible says we get to go on living forever only in Christ, how could we possibly expect those who aren't in Christ to go on living forever even if it is in torment? I do appreciate the nuance you bring for both sides. Thank you for striving for unity! 👏
I love and appreciate you and your ministry Mike Winger. You are a true blessing. I've been struggling with my faith for a while now. But every time I hear one of your teaching it inspires and blesses me. I hope and pray that I can get back to a place where I am completely trusting in God and His will for my life. You are one of the best Bible teachers in the world. Please keep doing what you do.
I've been struggling with my faith for a while now. Keep reaching for logic during these times. Maybe you can reason your way out of the cult. there is a reason why you need these "pump me up" sermons. Because it doesnt make sense.
@@eequalswtf6281 what in the hell are you talking about? What is wrong with you? Your comment has nothing to do with mine. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. May God have mercy on us both.
If you struggle with faith read the bible more. You will either come out faithful, or without any faith depending on whether or not you are a child of God.
@@user-iv1od1qm7q I believe God and his word. Everything that God says is true. I just have no faith to be able to live it out what you make the right choices to live for God. I just continue to make bad choices and ruin my life. It's not about whether I believe the word or God it's about my ability to obey him. That's the problem is I don't get into the word. Instead I get distracted and do other things.
@@carloporter1373oh son, your post saddens me.💔 We ALL fall short of the glory of God! Have you accepted Jesus as your Savior & repented of your sins? That's an important first step. ❤
What a waste of time !! Amazing how religion prevents making the world a better place by convincing people some abstraction is "in charge" of things and so the hard of thinking just pretend "someone in charge of the universe" is actually in control. No wonder there is war and poverty.
Very simple, yet important observations that often we pass by without thinking about, and very well explained. The job you do to God's kingdom is much appretiated, even for a brother all the way from Brazil. God bless you and keeps making you stronger and capable.
Hey Mike! A book you would find super interesting is Imagine Heaven. I have not found anything non-biblical in it but goes beyond biblical scope in the topic of what heaven and hell is like. Thankful for your RUclips presence, it is a true blessing!
The fact that Christ spent so much time teaching about it means God wants us to fully understand it. Otherwise, there would've been no point in Christ preaching about it. If that wasn't enough, the apostles were also inspired to talk about it, so it obviously means this is a very serious subject. Does it make sense to believe that God wouldn't want ppl to perish and also tell them they don't have to fully understand the subject? Ofc it doesn't.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 I don't mean it's not important or relevant only that the EXACT nature of hell isn't actually as clear as we've pretended it is. I try to approach these things with humility. The Jewish people had grown absolutely sure they knew who the messiah would be and what he would do,.... and most missed him because he didn't do what they thought the prophets taught he would do. They were absolutely sure they had figured it out. That he would rescue them from the Roman's and reestablish their kingdom, and you know, it really does seem to say that if you reduce the importance of the text that suggests something else and maximize the importance of the text that says that.
Why don’t we Believe what thé bible says. Second death is death in the lake of fire. Painful but the wicked will perish. John 3.15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Perish here mean destruction
The Bible describes the punishment has everlasting punishment also as everlasting destruction and also as death and perishing. As far as I know only one view fits all of those definitions which would be annihilation. But if you ignore every term except for eternal punishment then it's very easy to just hold on to the traditional view.
This brought so much clarity! I have been really struggling with this topic. I was having trouble reconciling God's justice with eternal unending torture.
The worst part of Hell - the true punishment - is a complete absence of God. That's something that we cannot even comprehend - every ounce of His nature is gone...Love, peace, light, etc.
Well, "eternity" is definitely hard to comprehend but the absence of God is just as difficult. We have never known existence without The Lord's presence in our world and we cannot even begin to comprehend what the impact would be if He was completely gone.
Hell is the state of self-exclusion from God. God will not force a person to be with him in heaven if that person commits a grave sin without repentance that destroys sanctifying grace in the soul of the sinner constituting a turn away from God.
Mike, ever read Edward Fudge's "The Fire That Consumes"? I recommend the third (and final, sadly) edition. I find Fudge's case for Conditional Immortality and his rebuttal of critics of his findings (along with his charming and kind footnotes) compelling) compelling. Any engagement with the topic of Hell as "eternal conscious torment" must contend with Fudge's masterful articulation of the Biblical corpus.
The more I got to read into the subject and considered God's character, I alos moved to conditional immortality and not an eternal conscious torment "hell." And I discovered Fudge and the rethinking hell speakers AFTER I already became a conditionalist, but they sure are worth looking into.
"eternal conscious torment" is contrary to the principle that God gives and sustains all live. It would mean God sustaining sinners alive in hell just so much that they would not die from their sufferings. Sophisticated torture in other words.
@@PB4U Mike believes hell exists to show people how bad sin is, but if God wants to help them change and become wiser, why make them understand their sins if God plans to remove them?
Mike, I thank you so much for this. Personally, I believe in conditional immortality, not like I'm 100% certain about it but there are passages where it say destroyed/perish. I just feel very uncomfortable with the concept of eternal punishment. Just like what you've said, let's trust God's justice, because so many things are not revealed to us yet. Also Malachi 4:1,3. "For behold the day is coming burning like and oven, and all the proud, yes allude wickedly shall be as stubble. And the day that is coming shall `burn them up`, says the Lord of hosts,that shall leave them neither root nor branch. . .
I love your commentaries, Mike, because they give me some of my biggest laughs of the week. First of all, I do not believe in a god, and I do not believe in hell. Your comments about hell are so speculative and so beyond what the Bible says about it, it's unbelievable. And it is unbelievable! Please, continue this wonderful work!
And with the title of "facts about hell" - it's hilarious, but another side of it is mildly disturbing - how easy is it to fool millions of people with utter nonsense, no wonder the supposed god called them his flock - he was actually calling them sheep - even the authors of the made up lord were actually openly trolling.
I appreciate having nuance here. Some other channels seem less able to do that and seem to really push hard on particular positions but use potentially flawed logic more than scripture to push those positions.
Hey Mike. Thank you for your teaching. In my reading of scripture I am amazed at the number of scriptural passages that talk about the destruction of the wicked . What is your understanding of these passages.
Yes just like when Jesus says fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell. But then I’m Mark it states the “their worm does not die” further the rich man in Luke ch16. Is in hell not destroyed but in tourment. Then in revelation at the final judgement that death and hell are drug up, judged and then thrown into the lake of fire. So if you are destroyed and or annihilated than what would be brought out of hell to be then thrown in the lake of fire? Also people tend to not look at how words are used in the Bible. Just like how death is synonymous with sleep and sleep is used as a metaphor for death death is not sleep. Also with destruction. Destruction isn’t annihilation but separated from life and the giver of life (god) and now are being destroyed, cut off from and tormented in hell.
I know the topic of hell and eternal punishment can be a stumbling block for both Christians and non-Christians, but I think your video will definitely alleviate some of the doubts they have about it, as I think you did a great job addressing it, Mike. 👍👍 I think another thing to mention that will make eternal punishment make more sense is that, God is infinite in His value, essence, righteousness and holiness, so to sin against an infinite being will likewise incur a sentence or punishment that reflects the infinite severity of such sins, since they are ultimately against God, not just people (Psalm 51:4). Regardless of what our opinions are, we should be able to echo the words of Abraham when he asked the question: "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" - Genesis 18:25
The problem with that theory is for it to work, it needs to be two equal entities. For a created being to suffer the price of an immortal divine being would seem grossly unfair. And by that judgment, we could say that for Christ to pay our debt of sin that would cause us to be tortured for zillions of years, unending, He needs to spend eternity in hell to pay for our sins. If our crime merits eternal suffering, then His payment needs to be for all of eternity too. But I do agree with you Bible verse and say, Amen.
I'm glad you agree with the Bible verse I gave. I understand what you're saying with respect to Christ's sacrifice, so we have to wonder how Him dying on the cross for only a few hours could satisfy the eternal weight of our punishment. One possible solution to that conundrum is that because Jesus is the Son of God and is therefore eternal in His nature, just like the Father, then He was therefore able to bear the eternal weight of our punishment, however way He did it, the scripture is not entirely clear, but we know that He did it nonetheless.@@martin9410
@@martin9410 The problem with your argument that Jesus would have to spend eternity in hell to pay for our sins is equally true for the other side of the coin. Jesus would have to be annihilated (cease to exist) to pay for our sins. The difference is Jesus, God, was/is sinless. His payment, due to His righteousness and love, pays for our sins.
@@jeremywj Just to clarify the position of Christian Conditionalists/Annihilationists: we aren’t claiming that the punishment for sin is non-existence. Our claim is that the punishment for sin is death (the cessation of life). In the case of the lost person, the everlasting punishment will be the permanent (everlasting/eternal), second death of the entire person, soul & body (as Jesus describes in Matthew 10:28) after the resurrection to judgment. By contrast, Jesus’ death was not permanent (praise God!). But He really did die for our sins. So the Conditionalist/Annihlationist case is not at odds with Christ’s death and resurrection. In fact, for those who accept a substitutionary view of the atonement, Conditionalism is arguably much more compatible with Christ’s work on the cross than the later traditions. He suffered real death but was permanently resurrected (unlike the lost) and as a result, those who are in Him can also be resurrected and made immortal (as per 1 Corinthians 15). Regarding martin9410’s argument, we may still wish to examine and challenge it, but if so, it should be done with the understanding that we claim death is the punishment Christ bore, not ceasing to exist, so there is no conflict with Annihilationism on that point. By the way, it may very well be that non-existence is a *result* of that everlasting second death (in the sense that a permanently dead human being returns to dust and no longer exists in the form of a conscious, living human), but death itself is the Biblically stated punishment (a capital punishment which is never reversed for the lost). Hope that helps. Now back to iron sharpening iron!
I am glad that a mere man could solve all the mysteries for you... We are supposed to study the bible for ourselves daily and ask the Holy Spirit to teach us.
What’s wrong with studying the Bible and listening to a godly man teach? Humility is listening to other opinions and not merely being stubborn with our own
@@ImageBears If you are relying on a man to teach you truth then you are not reading the bible. I do not need to listen to men to know what the scriptures say.
Great video Pastor Mike. I lean towards conditional immortality myself. The best book I’d recommend on the topic is the third edition of The Fire That Consumes by Edward Fudge. Chris Date who you’ve interacted with in your videos recommends the book too.
Excellent book. I spoke to the author (Edward Fudge) about 6 months before he went to be with the Lord. We spoke for a good 30 minutes on the phone. He was a very humble servant and researcher! Probably known as one of the best books on the subject ever written.
@martin9410 I've never read his book, but I've heard a lot about it. I fall under the conditional mortality banner, have been for 40+ years. Back then there was no name for it. Just curious, you made a statement how you spoke to Fudge shortly before "he went to be with the Lord". Did he believe in an immortal soul? Or was that just a figure of speech?
@@deanwall9291 no, he didn’t believe in the immortal soul. He believed that immortality and/or eternal life was a free gift from God for those who trusted in Christ.
Response from an adherant of conditional immortality: Mike, thank you for this. I have long loved your content and wished you would do a thorough study and presentation on hell. Thank you for granting that conditional immortality is a legitimate position worth of consideration and respect. I trust you will give it a fair hearing. When you do so, here are two things I would like for you to address: 1. The Bible says that God alone has immortality. (1 Timothy 6:16) We do not have but rather seek after immortality. (Romans 2:7) Therefore, immortality for us is conditional. 2. The three most common words both Jesus and Paul used to describe the fate of the unsaved is that they will: die/perish/be destroyed. What do these words mean? Is not death the opposite of life? Is it not therefore making death literally mean the opposite of what it means to say that eternal death is a miserable eternal life? Please look into the arguments conditional immortalists use here, the response from those adhering to eternal conscious torment, and the response back given by conditional immortalists. Thank you so much for your good heart and studious mind!
I think that eternal/zoe life and it’s opposite (eternal death) are different to mere biological life and death. Eternal life is not just everlasting bios but something more (e.g. John 17:3). As such, it follows that eternal death/destruction could also mean something unlike our natural understanding of death.
I think Mike is doing a great job in bringing up these issues. On this particular topic I looked at it for over a thousand hours and I did an interview with a Brother on RUclips which you can find its entitled 10 reasons why people won't not burn in hell forever. Maybe a bit provocative but I go through each reason in some detail. I think my presentation might help particularly those who are thinking God seems like a monster to show that the Bible doesn't teach eternal torment. Here's a righteous judge, but not a sadistic torturer
My advice for those who struggle with the idea of Hell is to learn about who God is / God's character and also learning about who we are and about how bad sin is (like Mike said). The Old Testament is just as important as the New Testament ^•^
The Bible states that God is not the author of confusion, yet, there are many interpretations and beliefs about hell or the afterlife within Christianity. Something is not adding up here.
What dont add up is the looking and hoping that the scriptures r wrong...they r not...and regardless of what you believe in ...God is truth...anything not truthful is a lie and it dont matter if a church teaches lies. You should be studying so that no harmful teaching can harm you
@@preacher031163I don’t think you understand the poster’s concern. Many people interpret that Bible in many different ways, from regular folks to clergyman to theologists and religious scholars. You seem to be presuming that you have the right interpretation and that if people would read on their own they would too. It clearly doesn’t work that way.
Conditional immortality has been a head scratcher to me since I first heard of it. I'm open to both conditional immortality or eternal suffering, but since I've became aware for the former and looked at arguments conditional immortality has gotten more ground in my head. Still yet to do a deep dive, and I won't be committing to a side of this argument until I do.
That's a very healthy approach not committing to a particular view until you've done a good search of the topic. The sad reality is for most of us we just hold on to the traditional view by default and assume that it's true. I for one after spending over a thousand hours of studying this topic have come to the view that Annihilation is Biblical. But I do admire the fact that you have not committed until you've done the study yourself.
I spoke to Fudge about 6 months before he passed away. We talked on the phone for about 30 minutes. I always found him to be most humble and gracious and a tremendous researcher. His book on hell, is the best one I've ever read.
Evangelicals and their notes! When it comes time to find a "born again" name in the Book of Life Jesus will say "When I was hungry, there are notes from Mike Winger, when I was cold, here are more notes from Mike... Hmmm, nope can't find *that* name listed anywhere !" Get used to the sound of "..wailing and gnashing of teeth!"
Thank you for addressing annihilationism and saying there are true believers that believe this! The evidence I’ve been presented has convinced me to believe it but not being the traditional view it does give me worry that I’ve committed some unforgivable heresy in my attempts to rightly understand God’s word. I look forward to your 13.5 hour video on hell! 😉
I want to recommend that Mike read The Fire That Consumes by Edward Fudge. He was a solid Bible believer and pastor (I believe he's still alive) who grew up with fire and brimstone theology and was challenged to do an exhaustive study on the doctrine of hell through both OT and NT. His might be the most thorough study out there. His undeniable conclusion was that our immortality is conditional, thus the punishment for a life of sin is annihilation through eternal hellfire (consequences are eternal, not the torment). A lady I know made a movie about his life called Hell and Mr Fudge. She was able to get it into theaters around the country. Blessings
I definitely felt the same when I finally came to see the truth of the annihilation perspective. Ironically it was while trying to argue against it in a debate!
For me, part of the appeal of the perspective that annihilationism brings is that it doesn't make sense for people to be under a death sentence and for those who reject the free gift of eternal life to wriggle out of their death sentence.
What a refreshing it is to hear someone with my own personal conviction about hell. God knows what He is doing with Hell. He has clearly told how serious sin and rebellion is but many seem to want to think He is exaggerating about it, they seem to want to follow the worlds foolish views and opinions rather than what God has clearly revealed in His word. Sad. thanks so much for your Biblical stand.
If god so clearly reveals "things", why is there so much confusion ? There are so many preachers and hard of thinking followers in this world who think they have life "figured out" with different philosophies that it actually proves religion to be a mental disorder.
The problem is there are enough different views of hell shown in the bible that one cannot be proven over another. Also it does not matter if hell gets slightly less tormenting after a while, if it is infinite it is unjust. Also it is not sinning that keeps people in hell, the only reason people are in hell is because of not believing. Christians believe in god and still sin at a high rate. If sinners in hell do not have a chance to believe in god and heaven and repent and escape it, then hell is unjust. And for all of the split families where they believe that one or more of their family members would be burning in hell for eternity, do you really think that they will be able to be happy in heaven and at the same time know that their other family members are burning in hell forever for simply not believing?
It amazes me that there are people who still believe this stuff. I'll bet if you could get some of these christians to talk plainly, they'd tell you that jews go to hell, no matter how decent a person they may have been, merely for the sin of not being a Christian. It's pretty bigoted if you think about it.
I am a father, even if my sons reject me I would never wish an eternity of punishment on them. Yet the Bible claims that if we reject Jesus (i.e. don't believe that he is the true son of God) we would be cast into the depts of hell for eternity. I just cant see how people see this as just. No matter how you try to sugar coat or justify the concept of Hell. It is beyond me how any person can think a loving god can see hell as good and just punishment.
Millennia from now to what purpose are souls still being torment in hell? If there is no atonement, if there is no room for repentance, if there is no reprieve, then there is no purpose. The teaching of an eternal torment makes God out to be a despot, “love me or suffer for eternity”. This is why many find it hard to believe in God. The punishment is eternal. There is no coming back from the second death, (death of the soul); 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire (our nearest star). This is the second death. Rev 20:14 (KJV) The unbeliever and hypocrite perish, meaning no longer exist; 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:15 (KJV) A murderer has no eternal life whether it is in torment or bliss; 15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15 (KJV) Nowhere in the bible (KJV) does it tell us that our souls are eternal. And then you have this; 4 … the SOUL that sinneth, it shall DIE. 5 … he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD. Ezek 18:4-9 (KJV) And 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now PERISHED; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Eccl 9:5-6 (KJV) Your loves and your hates are who you are, they make you, you. They also determine how you react to life; they dictate what your envies (passions) are. The bible (KJV) clearly states that the sinning soul dies (perishes), “the second death” you no longer exist. You don’t punish a mortal with an immortal punishment. Hell isn’t a place it’s a condition of the nations. 9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. Isaiah 14:9 (KJV) And 17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. Psalms 9:17 (KJV) It is the condition of the nations after three major wars, (the last three trumpets of seven) for of each of God’s seven 1k year days, “woe, woe, woe,” 6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Psalms 12:6 (KJV) As for the worm that doesn’t die and the fire that isn’t quenched, they are obviously symbolic: Worm- disdain, reproach, or contempt, (abhorrence) towards those who help bring about this tribulation (hell on earth), by those in heaven who will remember forever the pain and suffering that disobedience to God creates. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66:24 (KJV) Fire- everlasting rebuke from the word of God to those of the second death. 8 … 9 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. … 16 And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered, at the REBUKING of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of his nostrils. 2 Sam 22:8-16 (KJV) And 3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. 4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Psalms 50:3-4 (KJV) And 29 For our God is a consuming fire. Heb 12:29 (KJV) And 14 … I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them. Jer 5:14 (KJV) And 4 … for ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn for ever. Jer 17:4 (KJV) Don’t take my word for it, or any bodies for that matter. Come to the bible (KJV) as a child and with sincere want for truth, and not to consume it upon your lusts, but that you may do true worship and obedience to God, with a repentant heart, and with reason and logic the spirit of God will teach.11 … in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Acts 17:11 (KJV) All glory to God. Amen
One thought I've actually had recently on the topic of annihliationism is that I do wonder if some of the instances where the Bible mentions eternal punishment are meant in more of a sense that the outcome or the effect of the punishment is eternal. As in, if you go along with the destruction language that Mike mentioned, the soul would then be completely destroyed and the punishment is final, thus meaning that it would last for eternity while not technically being active torment or anything of that nature. That being said, I do feel like I remember verses that implied that it was an ongoing eternal punishment, but I wanted to throw the thought out there and get some feedback on whether or not that is a reasonable interpretation. I'm currently digging more into the OT so forgive me if I'm not remembering some scripture that contradicts that thought from the NT.
I’ve heard the book “the fire that consumes” by Fudge is a good one that goes through all the scriptures, I’m going to read it soon as I’m curious about this as well
Its like Sodoma and Gomora, it is said be a eternal destruction. Is it still in the process of being destroyed today? No, the fire consumed everything to dust, but the memory of it keeps it alive.
When your dog dies, he is destroyed forever. That is what eternal destruction means. If the wages of sin is death then death must mean eternal destruction, not eternal suffering as we have been taught for so many years.
There are two things that makes me think there might be something to an annihilistic view. one the scriptures makes it abundantly clear in verses that says, God will not stay angry forever. Moreover, it makes me think about the parable of the unforgiving servant, where the King says to the servant owing the debt, that he will not get out UNTIL he has payed the last mite. So, there it seems to me there is the hint of an end. But yeah, glad you tackled this. It is an uncomfortable subject to say the least.
People won't be in hell because of God's anger but rather because of His judgment of sin. He will not be angry forever but that doesn't/won't negate His righteous judgment of sin. Also, in regards to debt, no one is able to pay for their own sin debt. Time spent in hell is not somehow paying for sin. Only Jesus' sacrifice was able cover our sin debt.
@@LuvlyDaze I get where you are going. But the servant in that parable also does not have any way to pay other than just be in the prison for until the last mite. So, it doesn't point in that direction yet.
My goodness. I had to pause to process several times. This had impact. The actual severity of sin. Reminds me of the phrase "familiarity breeds contempt". The more we do a particular act, the less impact it has on us emotionally and more importantly, spiritually. But we also have to ask God to keep our hearts from becoming calloused -- or full of contempt -- because we are so familiar with His Word, too. Repetitive behavior of any kind, good or bad, can create a callousness to it. Holy Spirit, keep us from hardened thinking.
Jesus didn't pay the wages of eternal torment. He paid the sentence of death. A state in which you can no longer sin against God. Death could not hold him because he was sinless 🙌 how can we say we can walk free from a sentence he didn't pay for?
@weirdwilliam8500 why would I want to take my time to make a solid counterpoint when you're clearly not here to seek out God. You obviously reject Christ and ur here just to cause strife. Lol
@@GusarEddie I’m not a sociopath. Even if I became convinced that your god wasn’t just imaginary, like all the other supposed gods, I lack the capacity to praise, revere, or respect anyone who drowns millions of babies, orders women to be publicly r*ped in order to punish their husband, threatens to hurt anyone who doesn’t love him enough, etc. Because I’m not a sociopath. I could never “seek” that because it’s awful and I am too decent and emotionally healthy. That was my point.
I have found myself leaning towards the idea that the "eternal" part of hell is that the second death is final and cannot be reversed. So only those who are saved will live on in the resurrection but those who are not saved die the second death which is eternal. I believe that it has to be stated because the first death is not eternal because of the judgment. That's how I have come to believe anyway. I could be wrong, but either way I don't intend on finding out the hard way.
Four different remnant radio episodes with 3 different guests(one with a part 2) convinced me of annihilationism/conditional immortality. And the biblical support for it is far more abundant than I had originally thought.
@joshuakarr-BibleMan I wasn't either. I used to only hear an emotional argument for it but that's not a good way to do theology. I was surprised find it's alot more biblical than eternal consciousness torment
@@joshuakarr-BibleMan for start the verbiage used to describe what happens to someone in hell. IE: Perish, die, second death, destroy body and soul in hell, burn up, outer darkeness.. ect. But yes, there is so much more, too much to get into here.
Point #2 is really interesting, and I certainly don't understand it. It reminds me of a C.S. Lewis quote: "The door to Hell is locked from the inside." In other words, the people in Hell are there because they don't want to leave. They preferred to go their own way in life, and that preference stays with them in death. I heard a quote from an atheist during a debate (maybe it was Christopher Hitchens?) that said: "Heaven would be Hell to me". He won't want to be out of Hell, and God certainly won't force him to leave against his will. .
Atheists don't want to be with God, so He sends them elsewhere. But He can't create a separate heaven for them because all good comes from God: He's the source of it. So to ask for another heaven without Him is like asking for a room without darkness but with no light. It's impossible. Can't happen. God is omnipotent but He can't do the inconceivable, only the conceivable. That doesn't make Him not omnipotent, however. He can create the universe with a word, but He can't make a lit room without light, that's just nonsense.
@samanthajeffers9339 Keep praying for her!!! It may take pain in her life to cause her to stop and think about Life! ✡️✝ 2 Corinthians 4:4 "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."
I am an agnostic atheist. I don't believe in the divine because I have never found any compelling evidence for the divine. But if I had reason to believe in the Abrahamic god then I would tow the line and follow his commandments to the best of my ability. Not out of love for such a tyrannical being but for fear of eternal punishment. I would have no concern for the problem of evil or any of the gross, immoral commands that are laid out in the Bible. None of that would matter because if there was a supreme being I would be at his mercy and thus I would do whatever he said because I really, REALLY would not want to get tortured for all eternity. Divine command theory all the way! But as I said I have no evidence for such a being. Hell (and the Abrahamic god) seems to have evolved from various folk traditions, the synthesis of different religions, and interpretations of vague scriptures. That is why the ancient Jewish tradition of the afterlife is so radically different from the modern Christian interpretation even though they supposedly got their scripture from the same god. Because the evolution of Hell has human "fingerprints" all over it I disregard it. There may be a chance it is real, but I think that chance is so vanishingly small that I don't worry about it.
👍@Mike Winger you always do digilent research on every topic you present and always let the bible speak for itself. My heart sank for a moment at the beginning of this video when it seemed to me that you unlike you always otherwise do were turning more to reasoning and logic rather than the word of God this time. But then I was delighted when you said you are going to do a project on the topic of hell and that you are open to the possibility that there may be some truth in the anihiliation doctrine. Consider sheol/hades, tartarus, and gehenna, three distict and very different concepts, all translated as "hell" in many bible translations. No wonder there is so much confusion on this topic. If anyone is able to convince me of the eternal suffering doctrine it will be you, otherwise we will indeed have to agree to disagree. But consider that in many of the very phrases you quoted in this video and like you yourself pointed out, judgement is something reserved for the future, and not something that begins at death. Whatever the judgement in fire will be, I am certain it is not something that happens when you die, but rather after the return of Christ. This topic is connected to the whole eschatology. In order to understand what happens to those who reject Christ, it helps understanding what happens to us who don't. Are we really going to heaven, or is perhaps heaven itself coming down to earth? What is otherwise the point with God creating a new heaven and a new earth, if we are leaving the earth? Perhaps it is too much to do the whole eschatology in one go, but please do consider how these things are connected.
So I am a believer in apokatastasis, however, I think your point number 2 and 3 is the best point for ECT i have ever heard. ECT was a former belief of mine. And I’m glad I have a charitable view of it now. Thank you pastor 😊🙌🏼❤️ I still don’t know how to reconcile ECT with the grace that is greater than sin in Roman’s 5. With ECT Sin is greater than Grace for all Eternity.
You cant take a passage of scripture and build an entire absolute on it. In order to believe that you have to disregard most of the bible. What would he the point of the thousands of warnings in the bible if in the end it was all just a litany of empty threats?
My problem with the traditional teaching on hell is that Jesus said that it would be better for Judas if he'd never been born, and God says this of noone else in the Bible. God also calls life a gift. Jesus also, when talking about the broad and narrow gates suggested at least that more people are going to hell than heaven. Therefore it must be better to die and go to hell than to never be born, but how is this possible if you're going to spend an eternity in torment? I've liked annihilation to answer this, but an non static improving hell would also answer this.
"When a woman is giving birth, she has sorrow because her hour has come, but when she has delivered the baby, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world." (John 16:21)
"Dwell on these words, that you may grasp all they convey. Indeed, it may almost be said that in this lies the whole matter. It is a joy that a man -- any man -- should be born into the world. See how wide the words are. If you tell me that this joy is but a blind instinct of the mother: yes, I reply, it is this very blindness, as you call it, of the instinct that constitutes its force, for it thus betrays its origin ; it is implanted, and by whom? by the Great Parent, for it is spontaneous and betrays His hand. Do you ask me to believe that He has done this without a meaning, without a certain purpose of good? Can I believe that our Father bids any mother's heart to stir with joy at the sight of her infant, while He knows that this infant is destined to be, will be, in fact, shut up into endless torment and sin? And again, can you reconcile the theory of endless evil awaiting so large a portion of our race with that natural thirst for joy, that longing for happiness each one finds within? It matters not whether this has been slowly developed or created at one stroke, all that matters to this argument is its naturalness, its universality. This longing for happiness cannot then have been accidental, there must be in it a design on the Creator's part. Now, what was that design? To delude us -- is that possible? 'If the popular theory of future endless torment were true, what sublime mockery would there be in placing poor wretches first upon earth, where are heard the merry shouts of [carefree] children, the joyous song of birds, where above our heads "with constant kindly smile, the sleepless stars keep everlasting watch," where beneath our feet the delicate beauty of flowers of every tint gladdens the eye. What would have been thought of the propriety of placing a hundred bright and cheerful objects, suggestive of peace and happiness, in the anteroom to the torture chamber of the inquisition? It deserves, too, to be noted that man, the only animal that laughs, has of all animals, according to the popular theory, least cause to laugh.' - _Errors and Terrors of Blind Guides."_ --Thomas Allin, _Christ Triumphant,_ Annotated by Robin Parry edition, chapter 3
Sin is biblically defined as violating God's commandments, so yes, it does amount to being bad things that we do. Isaiah says the sins we commit separates us from God(Isa. 59:1-2), so you're clearly a deceiver. Somebody has to commit sin in order for it to exist.
Thank you, Mike, for another great and informative video, there is another Fascinating video on RUclips titled - why Hell must be eternal - by the Vatican Catholic, now, mind you, I am not Catholic, but regardless of that fact, it is by far, one of the best video, on the topic of Eternal Hell, I’ve ever heard, fascinating, and it makes you think, anyway, God bless .
This was helpful, for sure, but I am definitely looking forward to your in-depth study on hell- most specifically is it eternal for unbelievers, or is it annihilation? I've just been looking at this option, and I've got to admit that it would definitely be a comfort to me, as I have loved ones who have (for the moment, anyway) rejected Christ after living for Him for many years. I see in the Bible scriptures that seem to support both sides, so I am very curious where you will land on the topic. I've grown up as a Christian and have never even heard of the option of the punishment ending at some point until recently, and I'm very interested in the idea. But, obviously, it's not about what I want, it's about God's fair judgement, which is way beyond human understanding. Anyway, keep up the great talks and thanks for all the work you put in to searching for the truth.
haha indeed, really is crazy how humans 'want' things to be true and almost (sub-consciously ?) allow themselves to swallow this unrational nonsense. Most are scared to look outside the boundaries of what they've been indoctrinated with and others just incapable of doing so - these are the people that religions and cults feed on, they feed on our many flaws.
I wanted to compile the 8 (eight) points with time stamps for a small group meeting. If anyone wants them, you're welcome: 1. Not everyone gets the same punishment (0:25) 2. Do people stop sinning in hell? (3:08) 3. Why do we think hell is a static experience? (4:40) 4. Sin is way way worse than we think (6:12) 5. Part of hell can be viewed as consequence not merely punishment (9:23) 6. Annihilationism or conditional immortality is not heresy (10:44) 7. the people in hell do not want God (12:42) 8. Trust God's judgement (13:24)
God does not torture for eternity. Ecc9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. The results of death are eternal but it is not eternal torture.
The first few chapters Ecclesiastes are from a secular perspective. If you are studying about hell, please go to Jesus’ parables in the Gospels and see what He says.
@@abbycrown parables are exactly that, parables. There meaning must be searched out in the whole of scripture. Lets look at what Jesus said plainly about hell. mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Doesn't sound like eternal torture but the consequences of hell is eternal death. If you believe in the immortality of the soul then you believe the original lie of Satan that you will not surely die.
@@Eric-fq5wx And what exactly are parables in your opinion?? Meaningless? Thoughtless? Without grounding in moral truth? We both know they have meanings and are grounded in moral truth. First, I want to clarify I do not believe any “serpent’s lie”, I merely pointed out that certain ideas in Ecclesiastes are from secular POVs and may not relay your message clearly. I would also like to point out that I don’t know where I stand on this issue, I just want to follow the Bible and make as correct as possible judgements. My take on this matter will not affect my salvation in any way, so I’m okay taking my time to see what the Bible says. Secondly, going on to the reality of hell, I will quote a passage that is not actually a parable: “And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where “ ‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.’” Mark 9:47-48 NIV In this passage, Jesus is quoting Prophet Isaiah, whose works we know are sometimes poetic and allegorical, but more often than not, literal prophecies. We have here, worms “that do not die”, and “fire that is not quenched”, is this a metaphor? If the souls are not punished, why are there worms and fire to punish said souls? Also, to understand your point a bit more, are you saying, once sinners/unbelievers die, they disappear right away? Or do they wait somewhere for resurrection on Jesus’ second coming? If they will be resurrected, do they get judged and are annihilated? Or do they suffer for a time and then, are annihilated?
Thank You for elaborating on topic, seems like it widely misunderstood even among those who actively preach the Gospel. The focus wandering is a little unpleasant, did you tried manual focusing? ❤
I came to the conclusion of annihilationism while reading the OT before I knew it had a name or there was a big debate. Later i learned about the history of the eternal conscious torment theology, and that seemed the deal for me. Both view require a deep trust in God's judgment.
I am convinced that something must be seriously corrupted inside a person's heart, if he can think that creating sentient emotional living creatures, giving them eternal nature so that they cannot die even if they would wish to, and then giving them eternal horror pain and misery and that would be considered good, just and righteous act.
@@rxvyy Revelation also claims that the "beast" is a monstrous creature, mystery Babylon is a blood sucking prostitute who is tormented forever, and that death and hades are actual people who ride horses. Do you take those passages literally? If not, why can't eternal torment symbolize the 2nd death, similar to how the smoke of sodom will rise forever (even though it has been destroyed for thousands of years)?
@@rxvyy It only reads that way to someone who reads it through the lens of Catholicism's false afterlife theology. The passage says _the smoke of their torment_ is what rises forever. It doesn't say anything about ppl being tortured for eternity. The passage is phrased this way because the ppl who accept the beast's mark will have forever forfeited any possibility of ever being in God's Kingdom.
Saying “ It will be worse for you than Sodem” was a common way to add emphasis about how bad you’re going to get it. The carrot and the stick. It’s fear based, mind control. The worst possible fate imaginable if you don’t believe. The best fate imaginable if you do. The fact is hell doesn’t make sense. All those “sins” you’re talking about can easily be forgiven if you “but believe.” To achieve salvation, belief in the story is required which makes gullibility the only criteria for salvation. It’s the logical conclusion of make-believe, until you really do believe it or are at least afraid of not believing it. Boil it down. Believe the story. You will be rewarded beyond your comprehension. ( after death of course) If you don’t believe the story. You will be tortured for eternity. Do you really have a good reason to think there’s a deity who requires you to believe it exists or it will torture you for eternity? Love him or be tortured for eternity? What kind of psychopath God is this? Not only that imagine if your kid got into the orchard and ate off of a tree that was off-limits. Would you punish them for eternity? Would it be fair to their children if you tortured them for what their parents did? What about the grandchildren and great grandchildren? Do you torture them because your child ate the fruit when it was six years old? this is an immoral story. There are no good parents who do that. There is no good person who would demand somebody loves them or they’re going to torture them for eternity. It’s obvious. Christianity boils down to a fear based mind control method, perfected over a couple thousand years. It takes your weekends, free time and 10% of your income in exchange for the promise of eternal salvation if you love the deity. And eternal torture if you don’t. Good thing there are No good reasons to think it’s true.
The wages of sin is death, but if the wages of sin was eternal suffering, then Jesus could not have paid the price. He would still be in hell or in the grave if that were the case. He lived the perfect life, and died for our sins, body and soul. And because he lived the perfect life, Jesus was worthy to be the sacrifice for our sins and his death was enough. God brought him back to life and he has immortality now forevermore.
I don't believe in the "eternal torment" version of hell, but this isn't the best argument. The punishment for sin isn't just dying, it's dying and *staying* dead forever, which is why it's accurately called an eternal punishment. Otherwise, the wicked pay the punishment for sin with their first, temporary death. The traditionalist could just as easily turn this argument back on you and claim that Jesus didn't serve the *eternal* punishment of death either. So although initially promising, I find this specific argument to be a wash for both sides, since both sides agree Jesus fulfilled an eternal punishment in a temporal period.
The conditional immortality argument mainly rests on the concept of if your spirit is separate (as in Greek philosophy) or integral to your being ( ie the Jewish view that body, mind and soul is one). I too am searching in this regard. Looking forward to your envisaged project on this. God bless
A very interesting topic. As an ex JW, before and after I always believed in annihilation. Since I came to faith3 years ago I have held on to the general consensus that it was eternal torment in hell. However, I’m now leaning toward annihilation but not in the same way necessarily as the JW’s and some others. I am looking at the way we read it…could it be possible that the punishment is torment in hell according to one’s deeds and then eternal means it’s the end no coming back, the second death, no return, no coming back, it’s eternal. Once they’ve served their sentence, as it were, then it’s annihilation and it’s eternal? And the ‘smoke’ of their torment will rise forever! As a reminder??? It does fit the text but it’s looking at it from a different angle. I’m sure Hebrew speakers would benefit here from the original wording. Very interesting though, I’ve never quite reconciled an eternity of torment and punishment with the God I have come to know. He is ALL faithful, true and righteous so there must be something we aren’t understanding. I don’t rate the fluid extremes of punishment or it not being static. But hey, who knows? Maranatha
I agree...I can't find Eternal Conscious Torment in the Bible (save for once in the Apocrypha). When I presented this to some JWs who came to visit (and after I told them I was a Christian pastor), they were taken aback 😅
@@JosiahTheSiah They would be! Lol They have a strange view of ‘worldly people, false religion, goats,’ and many other terms I’ve heard used. They really are quite arrogant, brought about by the ‘cult’ural structure and brainwashing of the cohort. Satan masquerade’s as an Angel of light, gives you one or two truths, that strike a real cord and makes such immediate sense…like a bombshell…then they suck you in!!! They do not realise that there are bible literate people other than themselves. And I could argue that they aren’t even bible literate. But nevertheless, I can’t accept at this time the eternal torment and punishment for all time and ages. It is not part of God’s character. So there’s defo something!
I grew up believing having a very vague idea about hell that involved eternal torment. In my young adulthood, I became a Seventh-day Adventist for about 15 years. I no longer believe everything SDA's believe, but I do think one thing they got right is their belief in conditional immortality. It makes a lot more sense to me biblically than eternal torment.
First and foremost… thank you for your work and dedication to preaching sound Scripture for all believers and non believers to study and hopefully grow closer to Jesus. I’d like your thoughts on my only mild rebuttal to your viewpoint on hell. While I wholeheartedly think your view of hell is valid… you didn’t really address the lake of fire. I have been unable to see any characteristic of the lake of fire to be anything other than infinite burning. I’d love your thoughts on this. Again… I appreciate you and respect you very much. I just wanted your thoughts on this. God bless!
1) Because loving God takes first place in a true believer's life (Matthew 22:36-38) and 2) because when we're born of the Spirit, we are born into a new family where other regenerate believers are our brothers and sisters: Jesus says it's the same for him in Mark 3:31-35 & Luke 11:27-28. Finally 3) I don't think we will have a memory of the unsaved (essentially those who chose to follow Satan rather than God, as Scripture makes clear) when we're in the perfectly holy presence of God i.e in Heaven.
There is nothing in scripture that says we forgot those who don't make it. But there is a verse that God wipes away every tear. God taught me to love and to care. I don't think I will stop loving and caring if I make it to Heaven.
Jesus Christ died for our Sins According to the scriptures and that he was Buried and that he rose again the third day praying for everyone everyday God bless you all 🙏🙏🙏🙏
With all due respect Jesus didn't die for anybody. according to Christianity Jesus never lay down his life Jesus was killed on the cross in barbaric way and you call such ugly crime as love. killing never produce love but HATE. If killing innocent Jesus on the cross in barbaric way means love for you, please define HATE. Jesus was GIVEN by his father to be killed on the cross and name it love. He didn’t go to the cross willingly but your God gave him to his enemy to kill him against his will read those verses please: Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He ( GAVE ) His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (Jesus was GIVEN by the father to be killed on the cross in barbaric way. The father is the one who plan the killing of Jesus and he named such crime as love. if Jesus died willingly why was he complaining shouting crying on the cross Eli, Eli Lama Sabachthani Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? That is, My God, My God, why have You forsaken me? Mat 26:39 And He went a little further and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, O My father, if it is possible, (let this cup pass from Me.) Yet not as I will, but as You will. ,( let this cup pass from Me.) Jesus didn’t want to die let this cup pass away from me means death and crucifixion. He asked his father to put crucifixion and death away from him. (Yet not as I will, but as You will.) Jesus will was not to be crucified or killed on the cross he said but as you will? Mat 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to) kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God(: this did not Abraham. Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. ( The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son:) the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Deu 24:16 (The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers): every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Who is the true God the god who killed Jesus because he love him or the God ALLAH who saved Jesus from being killed because he love him? DID GOD SEND GOD TO CRUCIFY GOD TO SATISFY GOD?
@@robertdouglas8895 Do you call killing innocent Jesus in barbaric way against his will as Mercy ? Please explain the verses I quote from the Bible . God of the Bible has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses? Rom 9:18 (ISV ) Therefore, )God has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses. ( English Standard Version Rom 9:18 So then )he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.( NASB 1995 Rom 9:18 So then )He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.(
@@robertdouglas8895 God had mercy on us by doing that sacrifice. If Jesus wasn't sacrificed, The Perfect God couldn't have sin in His presence. Only because Jesus took the punishment on HimSelf, we are able to put our trust in His sacrifice and be saved through Him. That is mercy. God desires mercy from us. But God shows us His mercy in this: while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us
@@uganda_mn397 We know God doesn't condemn us when we no longer condemn others and forgive them for what they never really did to you.. As you sow, so shall you reap. "“If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you"
@hylandsquire this means that hell is not eternal. The last 'two enemies' that will be destroyed are death and Hell. I could be wrong, but hell seems to be an 'holding area' for those who died without God.
Most Bible translations say "Death and HADES were cast into the Lake of Fire." Pastor Mike has said before that no one is in Hell right now, they are in Hades - and in the future, death and Hades will be cast into the Lake of Fire (which is Hell).
On the one hand you are right that Hell is not the final destination. But it's actually Death and Hades (i.e., the entire realm of the dead), not Hell, that are cast into the lake of fire. There is a lot of confusion because Scripture uses several terms in the original Greek (and Hebrew, where "Sheol" is the equivalent to the Greek "Hades", per the Septuagint), but a lot of English translations just translate them all as "hell" (Sheol/Hades, Tartarus, and Gehenna). Scripture uses a real place: the Valley of Hinnom ("Gehinnom" in Hebrew => anglicized as "Gehenna" and typically translated as "hell") as a symbol for what happens to the wicked in death. This valley is where garbage, sewage, and bodies were disposed of and burned. There is torment in Hades for the wicked (in the Gehenna/Hell/Tartarus part of it), but that is not the same as the "lake of fire (and sulfur)". Also, Tartarus is the deepest part of Hades, and is a place of suffering. It is only used once, in 2 Peter 2:4, where it is described as the place where the fallen angels were thrown. Taken with other Scripture it seems to just be another (very Greek) way of referring to Gehenna/Hell and as such it is almost universally translated "hell" in English. In summary: - Hades/Sheol = realm of the dead. - Gehenna/Hell/Tartarus = place of torment in Hades. - Abraham's Bosom/Paradise = place of comfort and rest in Hades. - Heaven = home to God and the angels. God's throne sits "on top of" Abraham's Bosom/Paradise (see Revelation where the saints cry out to God from under His throne). - Lake of Fire = where the the beast, the false prophet, the devil, death, Hades, and anyone whose name is not found written in the Book of Life are cast after final judgment. The reason Hades can and will be thrown into the Lake of Fire is because God's throne will no longer be there, but will be in the New Jerusalem on the New Earth. Also, Abraham's Bosom/Paradise will no longer exist either since all will be resurrected for the final judgment (so Hades will be empty and without purpose at that point). Revelation also states that the beast, the false prophet, and the devil "will be tormented day and night, forever and ever" in the Lake of Fire, which obviously cuts against annihilationism (at least for them). However for the wicked people who are cast into the Lake of Fire, only God knows if that is temporary or permanent. Revelation only states they will be thrown in there. Maybe the regular wicked people are ultimately destroyed and only the beast, the false prophet, and the devil are eternally tormented. We do know that there is no way for anyone to cross over from Hell/Gehenna/Tartarus to Abraham's Bosom/Paradise (per the Lord's parable about the rich man and Lazarus). That doesn't necessarily mean that the same is true for the Lake of Fire and the New Earth though, nor that anyone who dies and goes to Hell will inevitably be thrown into the Lake of Fire since they are not the same place and there is a final judgment between one's death and place of waiting in Hades (whether in comfort or torment) and one's eternal place in either the Lake of Fire or the New Earth. It certainly seems possible to me that someone who repents while in Hell can escape being cast into the Lake of Fire at the final judgment. It's pretty complicated and we probably shouldn't spend excessive amounts of time trying to figure it out exactly, but rather just put our faith in the Lord's promises and know that we who believe will be in Paradise until final judgment, and then the New Earth after.
Love you! Just wondering about the Greek original txt? Are these future tense as well? I would hope so but... I am convicted by the spirit and He leads me to your teaching so that tells me you're correct about so much. Thanks!
I can't move on past the 3 minute mark I am trusting Him to change me and He is and does but I still struggle so much with the flesh. I'm terrified that he'll scold me that I couldn't turn away all the things I should have turned away, knowing his law.
When you think about it, the books of the bible were written at a time and in a culture where misogyny, genocide, slavery, and a bunch of other bad things were considered good, necessary, and normal. The God of the bible was created in man's image specifically at the time and culture for which he was created. Why in hell do people want to play act on this literature which detrimental to mans positive development? You might as well get wrapped up in the game dungeons and dragons to the point it ruins your life.
Hell exists but what happens in Hell may not be what you have been taught from tradition. I would suggest that perhaps you have a very small view of the justice and love of God. His judgement of sin can be paid for. The wages of sin is death. Where does it say that death means separation from God in the Bible. Death means death. What goes on in Hell is judgement according to the severity of the crime (as Mike explains) but the end result is death. Death means eternal destruction. Hell is eternal for the devil and his angels. You can find verses that might imply eternal suffering but can you then deny all the many verses that say death is the payment for our sin Yes Hell exists and is forever.
@@JPepper467 You’re reading an awful lot into my comment, which is only one sentence long. I can hardly even tell what YOU think I said. You can’t make a proper argument by speaking on my behalf without my actual input and then “answering” to what I didn’t say. If you want a debate, then that’s fine, but please actually ask questions or start with one topic instead of monologuing. Much appreciated.
@MikeWinger Is there anythin in Scripture, or do you think, that all positive emotions (joy, satisfaction, etc.) will remain with those in Hell or will they lose those feelings? I can't remember who I heard say that those feelings would be gone because 'good' feelings come from God.
Mike I am glad for this lesion. I am 72 years old and over the years I have encountered this very set of ideas and worked overtime to come to the very same conclusion that you have. My idea of faith is composed of two parts believeth and trust, I believe that GOD is real and is described in scripture and trust that He will do as he said he would. This is my hope and guiding star. Be Blessed Mike.
I'm 70 and have realized religion is a hoax, especially after talking to mormons who are equally convinces as every other beLIEver that they know "The Truth(tm)" Check out 1 Corinthians 13:11 for the "escape clause". This is why the world is so messed up. People not helping to make the world a better place each day, but, instead, waste time talking about the billions of years of "heaven" or the "complexity of hell" after they die. How very sad to not really live as a result.
In my 73 years of age now and as a retired pastor I used to share Mike's ideas but have spent 100s of hours researching this topic and have come to a totally different conclusion than Mike's traditional one.
We would appreciate it deeply if anyone could pray for us our 12 year old daughter Candice living with Chronic congestive heart failure passed away may 30 2022 peacefully in her sleep she is with the Lord please pray for peace and comfort with God's love conquers all amen we lost our first daughter Angel at 15 years old in 2018 peacefully in her sleep she had Ms this is very tough we are grateful to God for two wonderful daughters and we will be altogether again praying for everyone everyday God bless you all
Dear Lord, please guide Steve and his family through this tremendous heart break and horror. Please, allow him to experience these unbelievably powerful emotions with you by his side. Allow him to clutch to you when all of his surroundings seem to disappear. Please guide him through his thoughts of death and mortality. Please hold him and his family during those terrible late hours of the night. Please remind him of his community, and this everlasting struggle we all share. Give him the courage to lean on others, and to continually lean on you. No matter how exhausting the grief is, give him the strength to continue processing it. Lift his spirit when all of life’s existential dread seems to be collapsing him from the inside. Hold his daughters for him. Even though he feels alone, and feels as if his joy has been stolen from him - show him the peace and serenity his daughters are feeling in heaven with you. If he has a wife, please gift these same blessings to her and all of those deeply impacted by this loss.
In Jesus’s name we pray, amen.
@@mrbungle2627I unite my faith and come into agreement with your prayer for our brother Steve and his entire family.🙏❤️🔥🙏
I'm so very sorry for your tremendous losses of your precious daughters..😢 Saying a prayer of healing of your broken heart. You may really get help and relief from Griefshare. There may be a group near you.. yiu can look online. Isaiah 61
Praying...I lost my 15 year old son three years ago. Everyday is pain.
Father I ask for peace and comfort and blessing on this family that is in so much pain right now. Wrap them in your grace and peace so that they can keep going and keep proclaiming Jesus is King of Kings and LORD of Lords.
We need a 6 hour Mike Winger study session on hell 😅
We need to Pray for Mike for 6 hours! He's a great blessing to the Body of Christ ✝️
👍 Like on October 31st?? 😂❤️
Might want to reread your own Bible though. The Firmament is not mentioned by NASA, except on it’s NAZI founders grave
Or you can open your bible and read the Word for yourself...
Truly. Also, we need a thick notebook and highlighters. 😅
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:12 📘 The punishment for sins in the afterlife is not the same for everyone; it's geared toward the committed sins.
03:00 🚫 The speaker suggests that people don't stop sinning in hell, which implies a continued degree of punishment.
06:33 💔 Sin is often worse than we perceive it to be. Painful consequences or punishment can help reveal the severity of sin.
09:20 ⛓ Part of hell can be viewed as consequence, not just punishment, as a result of permanent decisions made in life.
14:00 🙏 While understanding of the concept of eternal punishment may be limited now, the speaker believes there will be eventual understanding and trust in God's judgement from a heavenly perspective.
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@@omnitroph1501 No. He's just Canadian. 😂👌
@@jtzutube You shouldnt mock. People who question things and seek the truth are better than those who just take everything someone says.
@@SeerSeekingTruthI've seen a "Tammy A.I" be responsible for similar comments on other videos, could very well be a bot posting this to farm interaction/likes/etc
Your belief is foolish, its like thinking modern Israel are YHWH's people, when that prophecy can't occur until the tribulation.
There's a German Gospelrapper who's lyrics really stick with me: "Wenn du von Jesus hier nichts wissen willst, was lässt dich dann glauben, dass du bei ihm im Himmel bist." Translated: If you're not interested in getting to know Jesus here on earth, why do you think you're with him in heaven?
Really resonates with me. If people don't want God, they don't want heaven.
Hi, welches Lied ist denn das und von wem? :)
Da bin ich absolut deiner Meinung! Könntest du den Link zum Lied teilen? Bitte danke 🙃
@@Forever_in_Christ E.R. - Einziger Weg
Thanks for sharing.
What song is it?
Mike, though we are from diferent denominations, you and Micheal from inspireing philosophy did help me in my spiritual struggle, so i wish that you know that i appreciate your commentary. I hope you're having a good life, and may the Lord bless you
Mr Potat, denominations are the work of men. We are One under Christ. There was only One type of first century church that the Apostles and Paul invested in.
@@BIBLE-UNBUTCHEREDand it's Not the catholic church
@@BIBLE-UNBUTCHEREDwhat
Mike jones is great❤
And the smoke of their torment will rise forever….what a terrifying statement. If the seriousness of hell were to get into our bones, we wouldn’t be able to stand the idea of losing a single person to hell - even our enemies. Our hearts would break for the lost in our prayer time. Let it be so Lord.
Are you aware that in this verse John is alluding to the destruction of Edom in Isaiah? the smoke from Edom rises forever because they are destroyed forever and will never return. Go to the middle east today and you'll see that there is not actual smoke rising.
@@leavingnc Found in Isaiah 34:9-10.
@@leavingnc there were many, many verses just like this that I did not truly know the context of. I read them through the eyes of what I had been taught and was actually very surprised to find the Bible talks so much of being consumed, burnt up root and branch, destroyed, they will perish, death, burned up like chaff, hay and stubble. It was quite eye-opening and I don't remember any of my traditionalist pastors ever touching on these verses
@@davidbarnesyspot on
@leavingnc I’m referencing Revelation and the judgment of those who take the mark of the beast. The lake of fire is a terrifying judgment that is forever. To diminish it is to allow room for complacency. Annihilationism is a farce. We either tell it to water down the consequence of sin, or we tell it to try and reason with the world on God’s character….He is holy. There is no defense needed.
Daniel’s 70th week will be catastrophic, worse than even Noah’s flood. The two witnesses will not be defending the character of God before the world. They’ll speak of holiness, repentance, and judgment - the things that the flesh reacts badly too…hence the whole world wanting to kill them.
This makes me appreciate Jesus’ sacrifice and my redemption SO much more. I was just thinking yesterday that we literally will never forget His sacrifice in heaven, because the very reason we’re there is because of Him! He’s so kind and merciful, that’s why he wants to save us! He’s not trying to push us into some sort of religion, we were literally made FOR a relationship with Him.
And that’s why when people ask why people suffer I always say we cannot see the otherside. We do not understand the glory that waits on other side of the veil.
It is a religion and if you were living in the Roman empire 2,000 years ago you probably would had denied the new religion of Christianity like people today deny any recent (last 300 years) new religion.
@@aaronmonroe7932 luckily of you read of the Word of God, you know that He says the church age lasts about 2,000 years
@@ghostwhite1648 list the scripture
Amen!
I’ve been an annihilationist for a while but I’d still love to hear an in depth study from you. Thank you for covering these challenging topics especially given how much flak I’m sure you open yourself to.
What passages of Scripture do you think support annihilationism?
Same although hearing how he describes how life and death could mean something much different spiritually on the other side brings me back to a more middle ground view. I think God allows us to have conflicting and yet biblical views because He wants us to choose unity even in light of brotherly disagreements.
@spencergsmith revelation 5:8 and 19:8 follow the same pattern as 20:14 and 21:8. the lake of fire (the vision) is the 2nd death (john's inspired interpretation).
lots of other ones like romans 6:23, 2 thessalonians 1:9, john 10:28 and 2 peter3:7.
now think about matthew 25:46 and how Jesus made them clearly distinct as opposites. eternal punishment is not just eternal life with pain or "away from God" added on.
@@spencergsmithwages of sin is death...(not eternal conscious torment)
God doesn't desire that ANY perish (there is a finality to that)...
We people seem to think that although we shouldn't "beat a dead horse" God can cuz an eye for and eye and tooth for a tooth can't be applied to God...cuz He can do what He wants....(all under the umbrella called "love")
@@spencergsmithMalachi 4:1-3, Matthew 7:13-14, John 3:16 (!) and others.
Excellent. What we don't know about the final judgement is much more than that which has been revealed.
We should hold all these things with humility.
More like people should stop wasting their time on this conjecture and instead to out and really live plus try to make the world a better place through kindness and example. Religion is a waste of time, practiced by the hard of thinking.
So you admit you don’t have a good reason for it, so why do you make such a judgement about it in the first place then
Mike, i'm from Brazil 🇧🇷 and i have been learning a lot from you. Your life and service is a blessing.
Don't fall for his grift
You shouldn’t be learning from Mike he’s an idiot and he has no evidence to support any of the stuff that he’s just making up on the way. If you have no critical thinking skills and you’re just gonna listen to Mike without true investigation. You’re delusional. This belief system to burden torture people forever God’s personal holocaust. Then you are a disgusting human being for Even supporting such a disgusting system.
What’s absolutely amazing about this topic is that it shows the bounty of God’s grace. We keep sinning and keep sinning and yet for so many of us God keeps pouring blessings on us anyway….blessings we definitely don’t deserve.
Almost like god doesn't exist, right
@@David34981what
My favorite description of annihilationism ever: "you die die, die die die." 😂 thank you though for saying this could be a biblical view. I'm no biblical Scholar but I read the bible on my own and watch smarter than me guys like you a lot and the first time I was introduced to the idea something just clicked in my brain like ah that makes so much sense! Like just logically if the Bible says we get to go on living forever only in Christ, how could we possibly expect those who aren't in Christ to go on living forever even if it is in torment? I do appreciate the nuance you bring for both sides. Thank you for striving for unity! 👏
An eternal suffering of the wicked would mean God gave them eternal life also, exactly.
@@PB4Uscripture also says they will be no more. And it says their ashes will be trampled on. And they will suffer a second death.
@@PB4Uis that a Jehovah witness view?
@@ElliottBrandel I don't know. I'm not one if them
exactly as JWs have taught that no eternal suffering but eternal the sentences of no existing
I love and appreciate you and your ministry Mike Winger. You are a true blessing. I've been struggling with my faith for a while now. But every time I hear one of your teaching it inspires and blesses me. I hope and pray that I can get back to a place where I am completely trusting in God and His will for my life. You are one of the best Bible teachers in the world. Please keep doing what you do.
I've been struggling with my faith for a while now.
Keep reaching for logic during these times. Maybe you can reason your way out of the cult.
there is a reason why you need these "pump me up" sermons. Because it doesnt make sense.
@@eequalswtf6281 what in the hell are you talking about? What is wrong with you? Your comment has nothing to do with mine. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. May God have mercy on us both.
If you struggle with faith read the bible more. You will either come out faithful, or without any faith depending on whether or not you are a child of God.
@@user-iv1od1qm7q I believe God and his word. Everything that God says is true. I just have no faith to be able to live it out what you make the right choices to live for God. I just continue to make bad choices and ruin my life. It's not about whether I believe the word or God it's about my ability to obey him. That's the problem is I don't get into the word. Instead I get distracted and do other things.
@@carloporter1373oh son, your post saddens me.💔
We ALL fall short of the glory of God!
Have you accepted Jesus as your Savior & repented of your sins? That's an important first step. ❤
Thank you Mike, completely appreciate your heart and content. Been watching a few years now...
What a waste of time !! Amazing how religion prevents making the world a better place by convincing people some abstraction is "in charge" of things and so the hard of thinking just pretend "someone in charge of the universe" is actually in control. No wonder there is war and poverty.
Very simple, yet important observations that often we pass by without thinking about, and very well explained. The job you do to God's kingdom is much appretiated, even for a brother all the way from Brazil. God bless you and keeps making you stronger and capable.
Solid breakdown, questions, and thoughts on the topic. Thanks, Mike!!
Hey Mike! A book you would find super interesting is Imagine Heaven. I have not found anything non-biblical in it but goes beyond biblical scope in the topic of what heaven and hell is like. Thankful for your RUclips presence, it is a true blessing!
Made up nonsense.
This is really really really really good. This is so important to talk about.
Thanks so much Mike. You’re teaching is a gift to all Christians.❤
I love all the effort apologists (and theologians in general) make to explain what is inexplicable.
Seems like a waste of time.
I think the clearest fact about Hell is that God isn't interested in us fully understanding Hell.
True. And even tho eternal torment seems horrifically wrong to some of us, we must accept that God knows better than us and must accept what He does.
As an annihilationist, I disagree. I see the nature of Hell clearly with Christ's death on the cross.
The fact that Christ spent so much time teaching about it means God wants us to fully understand it. Otherwise, there would've been no point in Christ preaching about it. If that wasn't enough, the apostles were also inspired to talk about it, so it obviously means this is a very serious subject. Does it make sense to believe that God wouldn't want ppl to perish and also tell them they don't have to fully understand the subject? Ofc it doesn't.
Love it
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 I don't mean it's not important or relevant only that the EXACT nature of hell isn't actually as clear as we've pretended it is. I try to approach these things with humility. The Jewish people had grown absolutely sure they knew who the messiah would be and what he would do,.... and most missed him because he didn't do what they thought the prophets taught he would do. They were absolutely sure they had figured it out. That he would rescue them from the Roman's and reestablish their kingdom, and you know, it really does seem to say that if you reduce the importance of the text that suggests something else and maximize the importance of the text that says that.
#6 - Death really can be an everlasting punishment, precisely because you would miss out on eternal life.
It's also the wages of sin.
Why don’t we Believe what thé bible says. Second death is death in the lake of fire. Painful but the wicked will perish.
John 3.15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Perish here mean destruction
The Bible describes the punishment has everlasting punishment also as everlasting destruction and also as death and perishing. As far as I know only one view fits all of those definitions which would be annihilation. But if you ignore every term except for eternal punishment then it's very easy to just hold on to the traditional view.
Yet the Bible reads differently. Notice that well taught verse in John 3:16. It's either "perish," or have "eternal life." It's one or the other.
@@martin9410 I think we're in agreement. Proverbs 10:16 - "The wages of the righteous is life, but the earnings of the wicked are sin and death."
I love the Princess Bride shirt. You have the best t-shirts. I come for the teaching, but the shirts & the cat cam are bonuses that make me smile. 😁
This brought so much clarity! I have been really struggling with this topic. I was having trouble reconciling God's justice with eternal unending torture.
You can't and the Bible doesn't say the wicked will be burning for eternity. Read Malachi 4 and stop listening to RUclips preachers.
The worst part of Hell - the true punishment - is a complete absence of God. That's something that we cannot even comprehend - every ounce of His nature is gone...Love, peace, light, etc.
Absence of God is pretty easy to comprehend.
Much easier than "eternity"
Well, "eternity" is definitely hard to comprehend but the absence of God is just as difficult. We have never known existence without The Lord's presence in our world and we cannot even begin to comprehend what the impact would be if He was completely gone.
Absence of God is absence of "life, breath, and everything", Hense conditional immortality.
@@RussianBot4Christ Not only is it misspelled, it is also misused..
Hell is the state of self-exclusion from God. God will not force a person to be with him in heaven if that person commits a grave sin without repentance that destroys sanctifying grace in the soul of the sinner constituting a turn away from God.
Great ministry, Mike
Excellent teaching as always! LOVE your shirt Pastor Mike 😂
Your number 6 does need deeper consideration. You're bold to say that. I appreciate your boldness.
Yaay,, a Winger video! Been finding much understanding from your older teachings!
I look forward to this deep dive
Mike, ever read Edward Fudge's "The Fire That Consumes"? I recommend the third (and final, sadly) edition. I find Fudge's case for Conditional Immortality and his rebuttal of critics of his findings (along with his charming and kind footnotes) compelling) compelling. Any engagement with the topic of Hell as "eternal conscious torment" must contend with Fudge's masterful articulation of the Biblical corpus.
The more I got to read into the subject and considered God's character, I alos moved to conditional immortality and not an eternal conscious torment "hell." And I discovered Fudge and the rethinking hell speakers AFTER I already became a conditionalist, but they sure are worth looking into.
"eternal conscious torment" is contrary to the principle that God gives and sustains all live. It would mean God sustaining sinners alive in hell just so much that they would not die from their sufferings. Sophisticated torture in other words.
@@PB4U Mike believes hell exists to show people how bad sin is, but if God wants to help them change and become wiser, why make them understand their sins if God plans to remove them?
@@Metarig could you rephrase that question? I do not understand. Who are the people you are referring to? You and me?
Thank you so much for your recommendation. It was exactly what i was searching for.
Mike, I thank you so much for this. Personally, I believe in conditional immortality, not like I'm 100% certain about it but there are passages where it say destroyed/perish. I just feel very uncomfortable with the concept of eternal punishment. Just like what you've said, let's trust God's justice, because so many things are not revealed to us yet. Also Malachi 4:1,3. "For behold the day is coming burning like and oven, and all the proud, yes allude wickedly shall be as stubble. And the day that is coming shall `burn them up`, says the Lord of hosts,that shall leave them neither root nor branch. . .
I love your commentaries, Mike, because they give me some of my biggest laughs of the week. First of all, I do not believe in a god, and I do not believe in hell. Your comments about hell are so speculative and so beyond what the Bible says about it, it's unbelievable. And it is unbelievable! Please, continue this wonderful work!
And with the title of "facts about hell" - it's hilarious, but another side of it is mildly disturbing - how easy is it to fool millions of people with utter nonsense, no wonder the supposed god called them his flock - he was actually calling them sheep - even the authors of the made up lord were actually openly trolling.
I appreciate having nuance here. Some other channels seem less able to do that and seem to really push hard on particular positions but use potentially flawed logic more than scripture to push those positions.
Hey Mike. Thank you for your teaching. In my reading of scripture I am amazed at the number of scriptural passages that talk about the destruction of the wicked . What is your understanding of these passages.
Yes just like when Jesus says fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell. But then I’m Mark it states the “their worm does not die” further the rich man in Luke ch16. Is in hell not destroyed but in tourment. Then in revelation at the final judgement that death and hell are drug up, judged and then thrown into the lake of fire. So if you are destroyed and or annihilated than what would be brought out of hell to be then thrown in the lake of fire? Also people tend to not look at how words are used in the Bible. Just like how death is synonymous with sleep and sleep is used as a metaphor for death death is not sleep. Also with destruction. Destruction isn’t annihilation but separated from life and the giver of life (god) and now are being destroyed, cut off from and tormented in hell.
@@WordMadeFlesh777It's safe to say that, any word in the bible that disagrees with you is a metaphor.
They are made up by rather nasty people.
I know the topic of hell and eternal punishment can be a stumbling block for both Christians and non-Christians, but I think your video will definitely alleviate some of the doubts they have about it, as I think you did a great job addressing it, Mike. 👍👍
I think another thing to mention that will make eternal punishment make more sense is that, God is infinite in His value, essence, righteousness and holiness, so to sin against an infinite being will likewise incur a sentence or punishment that reflects the infinite severity of such sins, since they are ultimately against God, not just people (Psalm 51:4).
Regardless of what our opinions are, we should be able to echo the words of Abraham when he asked the question: "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" - Genesis 18:25
Well put!
The problem with that theory is for it to work, it needs to be two equal entities. For a created being to suffer the price of an immortal divine being would seem grossly unfair. And by that judgment, we could say that for Christ to pay our debt of sin that would cause us to be tortured for zillions of years, unending, He needs to spend eternity in hell to pay for our sins. If our crime merits eternal suffering, then His payment needs to be for all of eternity too. But I do agree with you Bible verse and say, Amen.
I'm glad you agree with the Bible verse I gave. I understand what you're saying with respect to Christ's sacrifice, so we have to wonder how Him dying on the cross for only a few hours could satisfy the eternal weight of our punishment. One possible solution to that conundrum is that because Jesus is the Son of God and is therefore eternal in His nature, just like the Father, then He was therefore able to bear the eternal weight of our punishment, however way He did it, the scripture is not entirely clear, but we know that He did it nonetheless.@@martin9410
@@martin9410 The problem with your argument that Jesus would have to spend eternity in hell to pay for our sins is equally true for the other side of the coin. Jesus would have to be annihilated (cease to exist) to pay for our sins.
The difference is Jesus, God, was/is sinless. His payment, due to His righteousness and love, pays for our sins.
@@jeremywj Just to clarify the position of Christian Conditionalists/Annihilationists: we aren’t claiming that the punishment for sin is non-existence. Our claim is that the punishment for sin is death (the cessation of life). In the case of the lost person, the everlasting punishment will be the permanent (everlasting/eternal), second death of the entire person, soul & body (as Jesus describes in Matthew 10:28) after the resurrection to judgment. By contrast, Jesus’ death was not permanent (praise God!). But He really did die for our sins.
So the Conditionalist/Annihlationist case is not at odds with Christ’s death and resurrection. In fact, for those who accept a substitutionary view of the atonement, Conditionalism is arguably much more compatible with Christ’s work on the cross than the later traditions. He suffered real death but was permanently resurrected (unlike the lost) and as a result, those who are in Him can also be resurrected and made immortal (as per 1 Corinthians 15).
Regarding martin9410’s argument, we may still wish to examine and challenge it, but if so, it should be done with the understanding that we claim death is the punishment Christ bore, not ceasing to exist, so there is no conflict with Annihilationism on that point. By the way, it may very well be that non-existence is a *result* of that everlasting second death (in the sense that a permanently dead human being returns to dust and no longer exists in the form of a conscious, living human), but death itself is the Biblically stated punishment (a capital punishment which is never reversed for the lost).
Hope that helps. Now back to iron sharpening iron!
Learning that hell isn't really what I think it was growing up is fascinating to me
Yeah it isn’t real
I am glad that a mere man could solve all the mysteries for you... We are supposed to study the bible for ourselves daily and ask the Holy Spirit to teach us.
What’s wrong with studying the Bible and listening to a godly man teach? Humility is listening to other opinions and not merely being stubborn with our own
@LisaChambers-mr1ur No part of my comment said I don't do that.
@@ImageBears If you are relying on a man to teach you truth then you are not reading the bible. I do not need to listen to men to know what the scriptures say.
Amen!!!
what a great closing statement and analogy!
I’m so glad you touched on biblical annihilationism and didn’t demonize it. Can’t wait to see where you land on this and why!
Great video Pastor Mike. I lean towards conditional immortality myself. The best book I’d recommend on the topic is the third edition of The Fire That Consumes by Edward Fudge. Chris Date who you’ve interacted with in your videos recommends the book too.
Excellent book. I spoke to the author (Edward Fudge) about 6 months before he went to be with the Lord. We spoke for a good 30 minutes on the phone. He was a very humble servant and researcher! Probably known as one of the best books on the subject ever written.
@martin9410 I've never read his book, but I've heard a lot about it. I fall under the conditional mortality banner, have been for 40+ years. Back then there was no name for it.
Just curious, you made a statement how you spoke to Fudge shortly before "he went to be with the Lord". Did he believe in an immortal soul? Or was that just a figure of speech?
@@deanwall9291 no, he didn’t believe in the immortal soul. He believed that immortality and/or eternal life was a free gift from God for those who trusted in Christ.
@martin9410 I agree. Amazingly, I do know conditional immortalitists who believe in an immortal soul.
On fire!
Pun intended.
I very much appreciate your videos and the way you make your case.
Response from an adherant of conditional immortality:
Mike, thank you for this. I have long loved your content and wished you would do a thorough study and presentation on hell. Thank you for granting that conditional immortality is a legitimate position worth of consideration and respect. I trust you will give it a fair hearing. When you do so, here are two things I would like for you to address:
1. The Bible says that God alone has immortality. (1 Timothy 6:16) We do not have but rather seek after immortality. (Romans 2:7) Therefore, immortality for us is conditional.
2. The three most common words both Jesus and Paul used to describe the fate of the unsaved is that they will: die/perish/be destroyed. What do these words mean? Is not death the opposite of life? Is it not therefore making death literally mean the opposite of what it means to say that eternal death is a miserable eternal life? Please look into the arguments conditional immortalists use here, the response from those adhering to eternal conscious torment, and the response back given by conditional immortalists.
Thank you so much for your good heart and studious mind!
well said!
I think that eternal/zoe life and it’s opposite (eternal death) are different to mere biological life and death.
Eternal life is not just everlasting bios but something more (e.g. John 17:3). As such, it follows that eternal death/destruction could also mean something unlike our natural understanding of death.
I think Mike is doing a great job in bringing up these issues. On this particular topic I looked at it for over a thousand hours and I did an interview with a Brother on RUclips which you can find its entitled 10 reasons why people won't not burn in hell forever. Maybe a bit provocative but I go through each reason in some detail. I think my presentation might help particularly those who are thinking God seems like a monster to show that the Bible doesn't teach eternal torment. Here's a righteous judge, but not a sadistic torturer
Great explanation as always Mike! Also, love your shirt
My advice for those who struggle with the idea of Hell is to learn about who God is / God's character and also learning about who we are and about how bad sin is (like Mike said). The Old Testament is just as important as the New Testament ^•^
Hell is just a way for cults to scare people in order to keep people in their group. Too bad the hard of thinking haven't figured this out.
The Bible states that God is not the author of confusion, yet, there are many interpretations and beliefs about hell or the afterlife within Christianity. Something is not adding up here.
What dont add up is the looking and hoping that the scriptures r wrong...they r not...and regardless of what you believe in ...God is truth...anything not truthful is a lie and it dont matter if a church teaches lies. You should be studying so that no harmful teaching can harm you
@@preacher031163I don’t think you understand the poster’s concern. Many people interpret that Bible in many different ways, from regular folks to clergyman to theologists and religious scholars. You seem to be presuming that you have the right interpretation and that if people would read on their own they would too. It clearly doesn’t work that way.
Conditional immortality has been a head scratcher to me since I first heard of it. I'm open to both conditional immortality or eternal suffering, but since I've became aware for the former and looked at arguments conditional immortality has gotten more ground in my head. Still yet to do a deep dive, and I won't be committing to a side of this argument until I do.
That's a very healthy approach not committing to a particular view until you've done a good search of the topic. The sad reality is for most of us we just hold on to the traditional view by default and assume that it's true. I for one after spending over a thousand hours of studying this topic have come to the view that Annihilation is Biblical. But I do admire the fact that you have not committed until you've done the study yourself.
I spoke to Fudge about 6 months before he passed away. We talked on the phone for about 30 minutes. I always found him to be most humble and gracious and a tremendous researcher. His book on hell, is the best one I've ever read.
Thanks so much for making this video. This gave me a ton of ideas for notes in my wide margin.
Evangelicals and their notes! When it comes time to find a "born again" name in the Book of Life Jesus will say "When I was hungry, there are notes from Mike Winger, when I was cold, here are more notes from Mike... Hmmm, nope can't find *that* name listed anywhere !"
Get used to the sound of "..wailing and gnashing of teeth!"
@@onedaya_martian1238 Exactly. ANd which of them has sold all they own and given the money to the poor? Maybe one of them? THey are all doomed.
Pastor Winger, thank you for all your teachings. You are such a treasure! God bless you!
Love the end message/analogy! So powerful!
You may have just saved my soul.
Thank you for addressing annihilationism and saying there are true believers that believe this! The evidence I’ve been presented has convinced me to believe it but not being the traditional view it does give me worry that I’ve committed some unforgivable heresy in my attempts to rightly understand God’s word. I look forward to your 13.5 hour video on hell! 😉
I want to recommend that Mike read The Fire That Consumes by Edward Fudge. He was a solid Bible believer and pastor (I believe he's still alive) who grew up with fire and brimstone theology and was challenged to do an exhaustive study on the doctrine of hell through both OT and NT. His might be the most thorough study out there. His undeniable conclusion was that our immortality is conditional, thus the punishment for a life of sin is annihilation through eternal hellfire (consequences are eternal, not the torment). A lady I know made a movie about his life called Hell and Mr Fudge. She was able to get it into theaters around the country. Blessings
I definitely felt the same when I finally came to see the truth of the annihilation perspective.
Ironically it was while trying to argue against it in a debate!
For me, part of the appeal of the perspective that annihilationism brings is that it doesn't make sense for people to be under a death sentence and for those who reject the free gift of eternal life to wriggle out of their death sentence.
@@truthbebold4009that's the same conclusion i got by just reading my bible? I don't wish to be wrong but that's currently how I understand it
@truthbebold4009 Im reading "Four Views On Hell" and he is one of the writers if Im not mistaken.
What a refreshing it is to hear someone with my own personal conviction about hell. God knows what He is doing with Hell. He has clearly told how serious sin and rebellion is but many seem to want to think He is exaggerating about it, they seem to want to follow the worlds foolish views and opinions rather than what God has clearly revealed in His word. Sad. thanks so much for your Biblical stand.
Sin and evil are more powerful then God I guess then...
If god so clearly reveals "things", why is there so much confusion ? There are so many preachers and hard of thinking followers in this world who think they have life "figured out" with different philosophies that it actually proves religion to be a mental disorder.
Obviously god didn’t make it clear if there’s so much confusion
I deeply appreciate your videos.
The problem is there are enough different views of hell shown in the bible that one cannot be proven over another.
Also it does not matter if hell gets slightly less tormenting after a while, if it is infinite it is unjust.
Also it is not sinning that keeps people in hell, the only reason people are in hell is because of not believing. Christians believe in god and still sin at a high rate.
If sinners in hell do not have a chance to believe in god and heaven and repent and escape it, then hell is unjust.
And for all of the split families where they believe that one or more of their family members would be burning in hell for eternity, do you really think that they will be able to be happy in heaven and at the same time know that their other family members are burning in hell forever for simply not believing?
It amazes me that there are people who still believe this stuff. I'll bet if you could get some of these christians to talk plainly, they'd tell you that jews go to hell, no matter how decent a person they may have been, merely for the sin of not being a Christian. It's pretty bigoted if you think about it.
I am a father, even if my sons reject me I would never wish an eternity of punishment on them. Yet the Bible claims that if we reject Jesus (i.e. don't believe that he is the true son of God) we would be cast into the depts of hell for eternity. I just cant see how people see this as just. No matter how you try to sugar coat or justify the concept of Hell. It is beyond me how any person can think a loving god can see hell as good and just punishment.
Millennia from now to what purpose are souls still being torment in hell?
If there is no atonement, if there is no room for repentance, if there is no reprieve, then there is no purpose.
The teaching of an eternal torment makes God out to be a despot, “love me or suffer for eternity”. This is why many find it hard to believe in God.
The punishment is eternal. There is no coming back from the second death, (death of the soul);
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire (our nearest star). This is the second death. Rev 20:14 (KJV)
The unbeliever and hypocrite perish, meaning no longer exist;
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:15 (KJV)
A murderer has no eternal life whether it is in torment or bliss;
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15 (KJV)
Nowhere in the bible (KJV) does it tell us that our souls are eternal.
And then you have this;
4 … the SOUL that sinneth, it shall DIE.
5 … he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD. Ezek 18:4-9 (KJV)
And
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now PERISHED; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Eccl 9:5-6 (KJV)
Your loves and your hates are who you are, they make you, you. They also determine how you react to life; they dictate what your envies (passions) are. The bible (KJV) clearly states that the sinning soul dies (perishes), “the second death” you no longer exist.
You don’t punish a mortal with an immortal punishment.
Hell isn’t a place it’s a condition of the nations.
9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. Isaiah 14:9 (KJV)
And
17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Psalms 9:17 (KJV)
It is the condition of the nations after three major wars, (the last three trumpets of seven) for of each of God’s seven 1k year days, “woe, woe, woe,”
6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Psalms 12:6 (KJV)
As for the worm that doesn’t die and the fire that isn’t quenched, they are obviously symbolic:
Worm- disdain, reproach, or contempt, (abhorrence) towards those who help bring about this tribulation (hell on earth), by those in heaven who will remember forever the pain and suffering that disobedience to God creates.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66:24 (KJV)
Fire- everlasting rebuke from the word of God to those of the second death.
8 …
9 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. …
16 And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered, at the REBUKING of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of his nostrils.
2 Sam 22:8-16 (KJV)
And
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Psalms 50:3-4 (KJV)
And
29 For our God is a consuming fire. Heb 12:29 (KJV)
And
14 … I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them. Jer 5:14 (KJV)
And
4 … for ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn for ever. Jer 17:4 (KJV)
Don’t take my word for it, or any bodies for that matter. Come to the bible (KJV) as a child and with sincere want for truth, and not to consume it upon your lusts, but that you may do true worship and obedience to God, with a repentant heart, and with reason and logic the spirit of God will teach.11 … in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Acts 17:11 (KJV)
All glory to God. Amen
One thought I've actually had recently on the topic of annihliationism is that I do wonder if some of the instances where the Bible mentions eternal punishment are meant in more of a sense that the outcome or the effect of the punishment is eternal. As in, if you go along with the destruction language that Mike mentioned, the soul would then be completely destroyed and the punishment is final, thus meaning that it would last for eternity while not technically being active torment or anything of that nature.
That being said, I do feel like I remember verses that implied that it was an ongoing eternal punishment, but I wanted to throw the thought out there and get some feedback on whether or not that is a reasonable interpretation. I'm currently digging more into the OT so forgive me if I'm not remembering some scripture that contradicts that thought from the NT.
I’ve heard the book “the fire that consumes” by Fudge is a good one that goes through all the scriptures, I’m going to read it soon as I’m curious about this as well
Yes it's eternal punishment, not eternal punishing. Just like it's eternal judgment, not eternal judging.
Its like Sodoma and Gomora, it is said be a eternal destruction. Is it still in the process of being destroyed today? No, the fire consumed everything to dust, but the memory of it keeps it alive.
When your dog dies, he is destroyed forever. That is what eternal destruction means. If the wages of sin is death then death must mean eternal destruction, not eternal suffering as we have been taught for so many years.
You articulated better what I was trying to say when I commented. Same idea, sentiment. God bless
There are two things that makes me think there might be something to an annihilistic view. one the scriptures makes it abundantly clear in verses that says, God will not stay angry forever. Moreover, it makes me think about the parable of the unforgiving servant, where the King says to the servant owing the debt, that he will not get out UNTIL he has payed the last mite. So, there it seems to me there is the hint of an end. But yeah, glad you tackled this. It is an uncomfortable subject to say the least.
People won't be in hell because of God's anger but rather because of His judgment of sin. He will not be angry forever but that doesn't/won't negate His righteous judgment of sin.
Also, in regards to debt, no one is able to pay for their own sin debt. Time spent in hell is not somehow paying for sin. Only Jesus' sacrifice was able cover our sin debt.
@@LuvlyDaze I get where you are going. But the servant in that parable also does not have any way to pay other than just be in the prison for until the last mite. So, it doesn't point in that direction yet.
Thank you Pastooor Mike. ❤ Australia 🇦🇺
My goodness. I had to pause to process several times. This had impact. The actual severity of sin. Reminds me of the phrase "familiarity breeds contempt". The more we do a particular act, the less impact it has on us emotionally and more importantly, spiritually. But we also have to ask God to keep our hearts from becoming calloused -- or full of contempt -- because we are so familiar with His Word, too. Repetitive behavior of any kind, good or bad, can create a callousness to it. Holy Spirit, keep us from hardened thinking.
Jesus didn't pay the wages of eternal torment. He paid the sentence of death. A state in which you can no longer sin against God. Death could not hold him because he was sinless 🙌 how can we say we can walk free from a sentence he didn't pay for?
This never made sense to me until now that I’m considering conditionalism
“Hi, I’m Mike Winger. Let me tell you all the ways I think it could be okay to torture people, because Christianity made me a de facto sociopath.”
the name suits you.
@@GusarEddie Good counterpoint. Very substantive.
@weirdwilliam8500 why would I want to take my time to make a solid counterpoint when you're clearly not here to seek out God. You obviously reject Christ and ur here just to cause strife. Lol
@@GusarEddie I’m not a sociopath. Even if I became convinced that your god wasn’t just imaginary, like all the other supposed gods, I lack the capacity to praise, revere, or respect anyone who drowns millions of babies, orders women to be publicly r*ped in order to punish their husband, threatens to hurt anyone who doesn’t love him enough, etc. Because I’m not a sociopath. I could never “seek” that because it’s awful and I am too decent and emotionally healthy. That was my point.
I have found myself leaning towards the idea that the "eternal" part of hell is that the second death is final and cannot be reversed. So only those who are saved will live on in the resurrection but those who are not saved die the second death which is eternal. I believe that it has to be stated because the first death is not eternal because of the judgment. That's how I have come to believe anyway. I could be wrong, but either way I don't intend on finding out the hard way.
Brilliant work brother!
So good! Thank you for posting in a shorter format🙌
Only in a religious cult are people so convinced of something they don’t actually know.
Four different remnant radio episodes with 3 different guests(one with a part 2) convinced me of annihilationism/conditional immortality. And the biblical support for it is far more abundant than I had originally thought.
Elaborate. Why are you convinced?
I'm not aware of any Biblical evidence for anihilation.
I know Jesus talked about Hell an awful lot.
@Andromedon777 man, I wish Had that sort of time on my hands. A good place to start is to watch the episode with Michael heisser on the tree of life.
@joshuakarr-BibleMan I wasn't either. I used to only hear an emotional argument for it but that's not a good way to do theology. I was surprised find it's alot more biblical than eternal consciousness torment
@@joshuakarr-BibleMan for start the verbiage used to describe what happens to someone in hell. IE: Perish, die, second death, destroy body and soul in hell, burn up, outer darkeness.. ect. But yes, there is so much more, too much to get into here.
Point #2 is really interesting, and I certainly don't understand it. It reminds me of a C.S. Lewis quote: "The door to Hell is locked from the inside." In other words, the people in Hell are there because they don't want to leave. They preferred to go their own way in life, and that preference stays with them in death. I heard a quote from an atheist during a debate (maybe it was Christopher Hitchens?) that said: "Heaven would be Hell to me". He won't want to be out of Hell, and God certainly won't force him to leave against his will.
.
I believe that. One of my friends who is an atheist said she’d rather be in hell than in heaven. It deeply troubled me she would say such a thing
Atheists don't want to be with God, so He sends them elsewhere. But He can't create a separate heaven for them because all good comes from God: He's the source of it. So to ask for another heaven without Him is like asking for a room without darkness but with no light. It's impossible. Can't happen.
God is omnipotent but He can't do the inconceivable, only the conceivable. That doesn't make Him not omnipotent, however. He can create the universe with a word, but He can't make a lit room without light, that's just nonsense.
@samanthajeffers9339
Keep praying for her!!! It may take pain in her life to cause her to stop and think about Life!
✡️✝ 2 Corinthians 4:4
"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."
I am an agnostic atheist. I don't believe in the divine because I have never found any compelling evidence for the divine. But if I had reason to believe in the Abrahamic god then I would tow the line and follow his commandments to the best of my ability. Not out of love for such a tyrannical being but for fear of eternal punishment. I would have no concern for the problem of evil or any of the gross, immoral commands that are laid out in the Bible. None of that would matter because if there was a supreme being I would be at his mercy and thus I would do whatever he said because I really, REALLY would not want to get tortured for all eternity. Divine command theory all the way!
But as I said I have no evidence for such a being. Hell (and the Abrahamic god) seems to have evolved from various folk traditions, the synthesis of different religions, and interpretations of vague scriptures. That is why the ancient Jewish tradition of the afterlife is so radically different from the modern Christian interpretation even though they supposedly got their scripture from the same god.
Because the evolution of Hell has human "fingerprints" all over it I disregard it. There may be a chance it is real, but I think that chance is so vanishingly small that I don't worry about it.
Luke 15 and the story of the prodigal son.... Tells it perfectly.
👍@Mike Winger you always do digilent research on every topic you present and always let the bible speak for itself. My heart sank for a moment at the beginning of this video when it seemed to me that you unlike you always otherwise do were turning more to reasoning and logic rather than the word of God this time. But then I was delighted when you said you are going to do a project on the topic of hell and that you are open to the possibility that there may be some truth in the anihiliation doctrine. Consider sheol/hades, tartarus, and gehenna, three distict and very different concepts, all translated as "hell" in many bible translations. No wonder there is so much confusion on this topic. If anyone is able to convince me of the eternal suffering doctrine it will be you, otherwise we will indeed have to agree to disagree. But consider that in many of the very phrases you quoted in this video and like you yourself pointed out, judgement is something reserved for the future, and not something that begins at death. Whatever the judgement in fire will be, I am certain it is not something that happens when you die, but rather after the return of Christ. This topic is connected to the whole eschatology. In order to understand what happens to those who reject Christ, it helps understanding what happens to us who don't. Are we really going to heaven, or is perhaps heaven itself coming down to earth? What is otherwise the point with God creating a new heaven and a new earth, if we are leaving the earth? Perhaps it is too much to do the whole eschatology in one go, but please do consider how these things are connected.
So I am a believer in apokatastasis, however, I think your point number 2 and 3 is the best point for ECT i have ever heard. ECT was a former belief of mine. And I’m glad I have a charitable view of it now. Thank you pastor 😊🙌🏼❤️ I still don’t know how to reconcile ECT with the grace that is greater than sin in Roman’s 5. With ECT Sin is greater than Grace for all Eternity.
You cant take a passage of scripture and build an entire absolute on it. In order to believe that you have to disregard most of the bible. What would he the point of the thousands of warnings in the bible if in the end it was all just a litany of empty threats?
My problem with the traditional teaching on hell is that Jesus said that it would be better for Judas if he'd never been born, and God says this of noone else in the Bible. God also calls life a gift. Jesus also, when talking about the broad and narrow gates suggested at least that more people are going to hell than heaven. Therefore it must be better to die and go to hell than to never be born, but how is this possible if you're going to spend an eternity in torment? I've liked annihilation to answer this, but an non static improving hell would also answer this.
"When a woman is giving birth, she has sorrow because her hour has come, but when she has delivered the baby, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world." (John 16:21)
"Dwell on these words, that you may grasp all they convey. Indeed, it may almost be said that in this lies the whole matter. It is a joy that a man -- any man -- should be born into the world. See how wide the words are. If you tell me that this joy is but a blind instinct of the mother: yes, I reply, it is this very blindness, as you call it, of the instinct that constitutes its force, for it thus betrays its origin ; it is implanted, and by whom? by the Great Parent, for it is spontaneous and betrays His hand. Do you ask me to believe that He has done this without a meaning, without a certain purpose of good? Can I believe that our Father bids any mother's heart to stir with joy at the sight of her infant, while He knows that this infant is destined to be, will be, in fact, shut up into endless torment and sin?
And again, can you reconcile the theory of endless evil awaiting so large a portion of our race with that natural thirst for joy, that longing for happiness each one finds within? It matters not whether this has been slowly developed or created at one stroke, all that matters to this argument is its naturalness, its universality. This longing for happiness cannot then have been accidental, there must be in it a design on the Creator's part. Now, what was that design? To delude us -- is that possible?
'If the popular theory of future endless torment were true, what sublime mockery would there be in placing poor wretches first upon earth, where are heard the merry shouts of [carefree] children, the joyous song of birds, where above our heads "with constant kindly smile, the sleepless stars keep everlasting watch," where beneath our feet the delicate beauty of flowers of every tint gladdens the eye. What would have been thought of the propriety of placing a hundred bright and cheerful objects, suggestive of peace and happiness, in the anteroom to the torture chamber of the inquisition? It deserves, too, to be noted that man, the only animal that laughs, has of all animals, according to the popular theory, least cause to laugh.' - _Errors and Terrors of Blind Guides."_
--Thomas Allin, _Christ Triumphant,_ Annotated by Robin Parry edition, chapter 3
Too many people think of sin as "sins", bad things we do. We are separated from God because of sin itself, not our bad deeds which are caused by sin.
@@cthulhucrews6602 No. BTW I like your name, as I am a big H.P. Lovecraft fan. Unless you get it from games or such.
Sin is biblically defined as violating God's commandments, so yes, it does amount to being bad things that we do. Isaiah says the sins we commit separates us from God(Isa. 59:1-2), so you're clearly a deceiver. Somebody has to commit sin in order for it to exist.
Too many people just make up rubbish about something they cannot possibly know anything about.
Mike, if you haven’t read Edward Fudge already, I recommend him.
Thank you, Mike, for another great and informative video, there is another Fascinating video on RUclips titled - why Hell must be eternal - by the Vatican Catholic, now, mind you, I am not Catholic, but regardless of that fact, it is by far, one of the best video, on the topic of Eternal Hell, I’ve ever heard, fascinating, and it makes you think, anyway, God bless .
This was helpful, for sure, but I am definitely looking forward to your in-depth study on hell- most specifically is it eternal for unbelievers, or is it annihilation? I've just been looking at this option, and I've got to admit that it would definitely be a comfort to me, as I have loved ones who have (for the moment, anyway) rejected Christ after living for Him for many years. I see in the Bible scriptures that seem to support both sides, so I am very curious where you will land on the topic. I've grown up as a Christian and have never even heard of the option of the punishment ending at some point until recently, and I'm very interested in the idea. But, obviously, it's not about what I want, it's about God's fair judgement, which is way beyond human understanding. Anyway, keep up the great talks and thanks for all the work you put in to searching for the truth.
This is an excellent illustration of why I'm no longer a Christian.
haha indeed, really is crazy how humans 'want' things to be true and almost (sub-consciously ?) allow themselves to swallow this unrational nonsense. Most are scared to look outside the boundaries of what they've been indoctrinated with and others just incapable of doing so - these are the people that religions and cults feed on, they feed on our many flaws.
I wanted to compile the 8 (eight) points with time stamps for a small group meeting. If anyone wants them, you're welcome:
1. Not everyone gets the same punishment (0:25)
2. Do people stop sinning in hell? (3:08)
3. Why do we think hell is a static experience? (4:40)
4. Sin is way way worse than we think (6:12)
5. Part of hell can be viewed as consequence not merely punishment (9:23)
6. Annihilationism or conditional immortality is not heresy (10:44)
7. the people in hell do not want God (12:42)
8. Trust God's judgement (13:24)
God does not torture for eternity. Ecc9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. The results of death are eternal but it is not eternal torture.
The first few chapters Ecclesiastes are from a secular perspective. If you are studying about hell, please go to Jesus’ parables in the Gospels and see what He says.
@@abbycrown parables are exactly that, parables. There meaning must be searched out in the whole of scripture. Lets look at what Jesus said plainly about hell. mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Doesn't sound like eternal torture but the consequences of hell is eternal death. If you believe in the immortality of the soul then you believe the original lie of Satan that you will not surely die.
@@Eric-fq5wx And what exactly are parables in your opinion?? Meaningless? Thoughtless? Without grounding in moral truth? We both know they have meanings and are grounded in moral truth.
First, I want to clarify I do not believe any “serpent’s lie”, I merely pointed out that certain ideas in Ecclesiastes are from secular POVs and may not relay your message clearly. I would also like to point out that I don’t know where I stand on this issue, I just want to follow the Bible and make as correct as possible judgements. My take on this matter will not affect my salvation in any way, so I’m okay taking my time to see what the Bible says.
Secondly, going on to the reality of hell, I will quote a passage that is not actually a parable:
“And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where “ ‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.’”
Mark 9:47-48 NIV
In this passage, Jesus is quoting Prophet Isaiah, whose works we know are sometimes poetic and allegorical, but more often than not, literal prophecies. We have here, worms “that do not die”, and “fire that is not quenched”, is this a metaphor? If the souls are not punished, why are there worms and fire to punish said souls?
Also, to understand your point a bit more, are you saying, once sinners/unbelievers die, they disappear right away? Or do they wait somewhere for resurrection on Jesus’ second coming? If they will be resurrected, do they get judged and are annihilated? Or do they suffer for a time and then, are annihilated?
Thank You for elaborating on topic, seems like it widely misunderstood even among those who actively preach the Gospel.
The focus wandering is a little unpleasant, did you tried manual focusing?
❤
I LOVE YOU PASTOR MIKE AND TEAM ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
I came to the conclusion of annihilationism while reading the OT before I knew it had a name or there was a big debate. Later i learned about the history of the eternal conscious torment theology, and that seemed the deal for me.
Both view require a deep trust in God's judgment.
I am convinced that something must be seriously corrupted inside a person's heart, if he can think that creating sentient emotional living creatures, giving them eternal nature so that they cannot die even if they would wish to, and then giving them eternal horror pain and misery and that would be considered good, just and righteous act.
@@rxvyy There is a lot of symbolic language in that passage and a lot of misunderstandings if taken literally.
@@rxvyy Revelation also claims that the "beast" is a monstrous creature, mystery Babylon is a blood sucking prostitute who is tormented forever, and that death and hades are actual people who ride horses. Do you take those passages literally? If not, why can't eternal torment symbolize the 2nd death, similar to how the smoke of sodom will rise forever (even though it has been destroyed for thousands of years)?
@@rxvyy It only reads that way to someone who reads it through the lens of Catholicism's false afterlife theology. The passage says _the smoke of their torment_ is what rises forever. It doesn't say anything about ppl being tortured for eternity. The passage is phrased this way because the ppl who accept the beast's mark will have forever forfeited any possibility of ever being in God's Kingdom.
Learning to read well is the best thing you can do to understand literature.
Saying “ It will be worse for you than Sodem” was a common way to add emphasis about how bad you’re going to get it. The carrot and the stick. It’s fear based, mind control. The worst possible fate imaginable if you don’t believe. The best fate imaginable if you do. The fact is hell doesn’t make sense. All those “sins” you’re talking about can easily be forgiven if you “but believe.” To achieve salvation, belief in the story is required which makes gullibility the only criteria for salvation. It’s the logical conclusion of make-believe, until you really do believe it or are at least afraid of not believing it.
Boil it down.
Believe the story. You will be rewarded beyond your comprehension. ( after death of course)
If you don’t believe the story. You will be tortured for eternity.
Do you really have a good reason to think there’s a deity who requires you to believe it exists or it will torture you for eternity? Love him or be tortured for eternity? What kind of psychopath God is this? Not only that imagine if your kid got into the orchard and ate off of a tree that was off-limits. Would you punish them for eternity? Would it be fair to their children if you tortured them for what their parents did? What about the grandchildren and great grandchildren? Do you torture them because your child ate the fruit when it was six years old? this is an immoral story. There are no good parents who do that. There is no good person who would demand somebody loves them or they’re going to torture them for eternity. It’s obvious. Christianity boils down to a fear based mind control method, perfected over a couple thousand years. It takes your weekends, free time and 10% of your income in exchange for the promise of eternal salvation if you love the deity. And eternal torture if you don’t. Good thing there are No good reasons to think it’s true.
The wages of sin is death, but if the wages of sin was eternal suffering, then Jesus could not have paid the price. He would still be in hell or in the grave if that were the case. He lived the perfect life, and died for our sins, body and soul. And because he lived the perfect life, Jesus was worthy to be the sacrifice for our sins and his death was enough. God brought him back to life and he has immortality now forevermore.
I don't believe in the "eternal torment" version of hell, but this isn't the best argument. The punishment for sin isn't just dying, it's dying and *staying* dead forever, which is why it's accurately called an eternal punishment. Otherwise, the wicked pay the punishment for sin with their first, temporary death. The traditionalist could just as easily turn this argument back on you and claim that Jesus didn't serve the *eternal* punishment of death either. So although initially promising, I find this specific argument to be a wash for both sides, since both sides agree Jesus fulfilled an eternal punishment in a temporal period.
Thank you so much Mike!
The conditional immortality argument mainly rests on the concept of if your spirit is separate (as in Greek philosophy) or integral to your being ( ie the Jewish view that body, mind and soul is one). I too am searching in this regard. Looking forward to your envisaged project on this. God bless
I lean towards annihilation view but haven't studied it thoroughly enough to know for sure. Would love a long in depth video about Hell, Mike
Pretending to know what happens after death is like explaining where the light goes after blowing out a candle.
Theres no need to pretend. God told us.
@@meeks4004 People said god told them.
A very interesting topic. As an ex JW, before and after I always believed in annihilation. Since I came to faith3 years ago I have held on to the general consensus that it was eternal torment in hell.
However, I’m now leaning toward annihilation but not in the same way necessarily as the JW’s and some others.
I am looking at the way we read it…could it be possible that the punishment is torment in hell according to one’s deeds and then eternal means it’s the end no coming back, the second death, no return, no coming back, it’s eternal.
Once they’ve served their sentence, as it were, then it’s annihilation and it’s eternal? And the ‘smoke’ of their torment will rise forever! As a reminder???
It does fit the text but it’s looking at it from a different angle. I’m sure Hebrew speakers would benefit here from the original wording. Very interesting though, I’ve never quite reconciled an eternity of torment and punishment with the God I have come to know. He is ALL faithful, true and righteous so there must be something we aren’t understanding. I don’t rate the fluid extremes of punishment or it not being static. But hey, who knows?
Maranatha
I agree...I can't find Eternal Conscious Torment in the Bible (save for once in the Apocrypha). When I presented this to some JWs who came to visit (and after I told them I was a Christian pastor), they were taken aback 😅
@@JosiahTheSiah
They would be! Lol
They have a strange view of ‘worldly people, false religion, goats,’ and many other terms I’ve heard used.
They really are quite arrogant, brought about by the ‘cult’ural structure and brainwashing of the cohort.
Satan masquerade’s as an Angel of light, gives you one or two truths, that strike a real cord and makes such immediate sense…like a bombshell…then they suck you in!!!
They do not realise that there are bible literate people other than themselves. And I could argue that they aren’t even bible literate. But nevertheless, I can’t accept at this time the eternal torment and punishment for all time and ages. It is not part of God’s character. So there’s defo something!
I grew up believing having a very vague idea about hell that involved eternal torment. In my young adulthood, I became a Seventh-day Adventist for about 15 years. I no longer believe everything SDA's believe, but I do think one thing they got right is their belief in conditional immortality. It makes a lot more sense to me biblically than eternal torment.
The biblical analogy of Hellfire is being burnt out of existence not burnt forever. Only the righteous are promised eternal life not the wicked.
Ethernal hell is false doctrine, if it was true I would not respect God.
You are referring to a false doctrine called ‘Annihilation’. Old heresy. Hell carries on forever, on a conscious person.
@@warrenduplessis1757 How can you love monster like that?
@@warrenduplessis1757If annihilationism is false, how does one go about torturing death in the lake of fire?
Lol.
First and foremost… thank you for your work and dedication to preaching sound Scripture for all believers and non believers to study and hopefully grow closer to Jesus. I’d like your thoughts on my only mild rebuttal to your viewpoint on hell. While I wholeheartedly think your view of hell is valid… you didn’t really address the lake of fire. I have been unable to see any characteristic of the lake of fire to be anything other than infinite burning. I’d love your thoughts on this. Again… I appreciate you and respect you very much. I just wanted your thoughts on this. God bless!
Briliant video, thanks Mike.
How do believers enjoy Heaven if their loved ones are in Hell ?
1) Because loving God takes first place in a true believer's life (Matthew 22:36-38) and
2) because when we're born of the Spirit, we are born into a new family where other regenerate believers are our brothers and sisters: Jesus says it's the same for him in Mark 3:31-35 & Luke 11:27-28.
Finally 3) I don't think we will have a memory of the unsaved (essentially those who chose to follow Satan rather than God, as Scripture makes clear) when we're in the perfectly holy presence of God i.e in Heaven.
Psychopaths don't care about anyone.
There is nothing in scripture that says we forgot those who don't make it. But there is a verse that God wipes away every tear. God taught me to love and to care. I don't think I will stop loving and caring if I make it to Heaven.
Jesus Christ died for our Sins According to the scriptures and that he was Buried and that he rose again the third day praying for everyone everyday God bless you all 🙏🙏🙏🙏
With all due respect Jesus didn't die for anybody. according to Christianity Jesus never lay down his life Jesus was killed on the cross in barbaric way and you call such ugly crime as love. killing never produce love but HATE. If killing innocent Jesus on the cross in barbaric way means love for you, please define HATE. Jesus was GIVEN by his father to be killed on the cross and name it love. He didn’t go to the cross willingly but your God gave him to his enemy to kill him against his will read those verses please:
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He ( GAVE ) His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (Jesus was GIVEN by the father to be killed on the cross in barbaric way. The father is the one who plan the killing of Jesus and he named such crime as love.
if Jesus died willingly why was he complaining shouting crying on the cross Eli, Eli Lama Sabachthani
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? That is, My God, My God, why have You forsaken me?
Mat 26:39 And He went a little further and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, O My father, if it is possible, (let this cup pass from Me.) Yet not as I will, but as You will.
,( let this cup pass from Me.) Jesus didn’t want to die let this cup pass away from me means death and crucifixion. He asked his father to put crucifixion and death away from him.
(Yet not as I will, but as You will.) Jesus will was not to be crucified or killed on the cross he said but as you will?
Mat 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to) kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God(: this did not Abraham.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. ( The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son:) the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Deu 24:16 (The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers): every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Who is the true God the god who killed Jesus because he love him or the God ALLAH who saved Jesus from being killed because he love him?
DID GOD SEND GOD TO CRUCIFY GOD TO SATISFY GOD?
" If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent."
@@robertdouglas8895 Do you call killing innocent Jesus in barbaric way against his will as Mercy ?
Please explain the verses I quote from the Bible .
God of the Bible has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses?
Rom 9:18 (ISV ) Therefore, )God has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses. (
English Standard Version Rom 9:18 So then )he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.(
NASB 1995 Rom 9:18 So then )He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.(
@@robertdouglas8895 God had mercy on us by doing that sacrifice.
If Jesus wasn't sacrificed, The Perfect God couldn't have sin in His presence. Only because Jesus took the punishment on HimSelf, we are able to put our trust in His sacrifice and be saved through Him.
That is mercy. God desires mercy from us. But God shows us His mercy in this: while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us
@@uganda_mn397 We know God doesn't condemn us when we no longer condemn others and forgive them for what they never really did to you.. As you sow, so shall you reap.
"“If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you"
Hey, Mike. Hell is not the final punishment/destination. Death and hell were cast(thrown) into the 'lake of fire'.
What does that mean/entail?
@hylandsquire this means that hell is not eternal. The last 'two enemies' that will be destroyed are death and Hell. I could be wrong, but hell seems to be an 'holding area' for those who died without God.
Most Bible translations say "Death and HADES were cast into the Lake of Fire." Pastor Mike has said before that no one is in Hell right now, they are in Hades - and in the future, death and Hades will be cast into the Lake of Fire (which is Hell).
On the one hand you are right that Hell is not the final destination. But it's actually Death and Hades (i.e., the entire realm of the dead), not Hell, that are cast into the lake of fire. There is a lot of confusion because Scripture uses several terms in the original Greek (and Hebrew, where "Sheol" is the equivalent to the Greek "Hades", per the Septuagint), but a lot of English translations just translate them all as "hell" (Sheol/Hades, Tartarus, and Gehenna).
Scripture uses a real place: the Valley of Hinnom ("Gehinnom" in Hebrew => anglicized as "Gehenna" and typically translated as "hell") as a symbol for what happens to the wicked in death. This valley is where garbage, sewage, and bodies were disposed of and burned. There is torment in Hades for the wicked (in the Gehenna/Hell/Tartarus part of it), but that is not the same as the "lake of fire (and sulfur)". Also, Tartarus is the deepest part of Hades, and is a place of suffering. It is only used once, in 2 Peter 2:4, where it is described as the place where the fallen angels were thrown. Taken with other Scripture it seems to just be another (very Greek) way of referring to Gehenna/Hell and as such it is almost universally translated "hell" in English.
In summary:
- Hades/Sheol = realm of the dead.
- Gehenna/Hell/Tartarus = place of torment in Hades.
- Abraham's Bosom/Paradise = place of comfort and rest in Hades.
- Heaven = home to God and the angels. God's throne sits "on top of" Abraham's Bosom/Paradise (see Revelation where the saints cry out to God from under His throne).
- Lake of Fire = where the the beast, the false prophet, the devil, death, Hades, and anyone whose name is not found written in the Book of Life are cast after final judgment.
The reason Hades can and will be thrown into the Lake of Fire is because God's throne will no longer be there, but will be in the New Jerusalem on the New Earth. Also, Abraham's Bosom/Paradise will no longer exist either since all will be resurrected for the final judgment (so Hades will be empty and without purpose at that point). Revelation also states that the beast, the false prophet, and the devil "will be tormented day and night, forever and ever" in the Lake of Fire, which obviously cuts against annihilationism (at least for them). However for the wicked people who are cast into the Lake of Fire, only God knows if that is temporary or permanent. Revelation only states they will be thrown in there. Maybe the regular wicked people are ultimately destroyed and only the beast, the false prophet, and the devil are eternally tormented.
We do know that there is no way for anyone to cross over from Hell/Gehenna/Tartarus to Abraham's Bosom/Paradise (per the Lord's parable about the rich man and Lazarus). That doesn't necessarily mean that the same is true for the Lake of Fire and the New Earth though, nor that anyone who dies and goes to Hell will inevitably be thrown into the Lake of Fire since they are not the same place and there is a final judgment between one's death and place of waiting in Hades (whether in comfort or torment) and one's eternal place in either the Lake of Fire or the New Earth. It certainly seems possible to me that someone who repents while in Hell can escape being cast into the Lake of Fire at the final judgment.
It's pretty complicated and we probably shouldn't spend excessive amounts of time trying to figure it out exactly, but rather just put our faith in the Lord's promises and know that we who believe will be in Paradise until final judgment, and then the New Earth after.
@@sarahfaith316 Pastor Mike is talking out of his arse though.
Love you! Just wondering about the Greek original txt? Are these future tense as well? I would hope so but...
I am convicted by the spirit and He leads me to your teaching so that tells me you're correct about so much. Thanks!
I can't move on past the 3 minute mark
I am trusting Him to change me and He is and does but I still struggle so much with the flesh. I'm terrified that he'll scold me that I couldn't turn away all the things I should have turned away, knowing his law.
Hey Mike Winger, Thanks for the reminder, that we do not know how bad sin is. I'm going to sit with this thought.
When you think about it, the books of the bible were written at a time and in a culture where misogyny, genocide, slavery, and a bunch of other bad things were considered good, necessary, and normal. The God of the bible was created in man's image specifically at the time and culture for which he was created. Why in hell do people want to play act on this literature which detrimental to mans positive development? You might as well get wrapped up in the game dungeons and dragons to the point it ruins your life.
You should watch more of this channel
Those who wish to get rid of hell have a very small view of sin.
Hell exists but what happens in Hell may not be what you have been taught from tradition. I would suggest that perhaps you have a very small view of the justice and love of God. His judgement of sin can be paid for. The wages of sin is death. Where does it say that death means separation from God in the Bible. Death means death. What goes on in Hell is judgement according to the severity of the crime (as Mike explains) but the end result is death. Death means eternal destruction. Hell is eternal for the devil and his angels. You can find verses that might imply eternal suffering but can you then deny all the many verses that say death is the payment for our sin Yes Hell exists and is forever.
@@JPepper467no it doesn’t.
@@JPepper467 well put
@@JPepper467 You’re reading an awful lot into my comment, which is only one sentence long. I can hardly even tell what YOU think I said. You can’t make a proper argument by speaking on my behalf without my actual input and then “answering” to what I didn’t say. If you want a debate, then that’s fine, but please actually ask questions or start with one topic instead of monologuing. Much appreciated.
Do you think Hell actually exist?
This guy is one of the main reasons the pews are emptying out both in droves and disgust.
Thanks Mike!!
@MikeWinger Is there anythin in Scripture, or do you think, that all positive emotions (joy, satisfaction, etc.) will remain with those in Hell or will they lose those feelings? I can't remember who I heard say that those feelings would be gone because 'good' feelings come from God.
Mike I am glad for this lesion. I am 72 years old and over the years I have encountered this very set of ideas and worked overtime to come to the very same conclusion that you have. My idea of faith is composed of two parts believeth and trust, I believe that GOD is real and is described in scripture and trust that He will do as he said he would. This is my hope and guiding star. Be Blessed Mike.
I'm 70 and have realized religion is a hoax, especially after talking to mormons who are equally convinces as every other beLIEver that they know "The Truth(tm)"
Check out 1 Corinthians 13:11 for the "escape clause".
This is why the world is so messed up. People not helping to make the world a better place each day, but, instead, waste time talking about the billions of years of "heaven" or the "complexity of hell" after they die. How very sad to not really live as a result.
In my 73 years of age now and as a retired pastor I used to share Mike's ideas but have spent 100s of hours researching this topic and have come to a totally different conclusion than Mike's traditional one.