hello! just a heads up for the next month or so, upload schedule will be worse than normal bc i am working on my masters thesis rn to finalize it and its stressful 😭 so sorry
I think Faith's fantasy moment of killing Angel is just supposed to signify that despite her epiphany moment in the rain, you don't just suddenly stop being homicidal or a past murderer.
Also mirrors the end of "Consequences" in Buffy S3. (edit: no it was in 3x7 "Revelations", after the whole Gwendolyn Post disaster) Then it was (almost) reaching out for support, now it's devolved into fantasies of violence.
I actually enjoyed the fact that Faith turned herself in and took responsibility for her crimes, and was willing to accept her punishment. One of my pet peeves is when villains turn good then get to run around free having fun adventures because they're 'sorry' now, but they can do more good if they are out and about and not in a cell. I understand that it's because fans like the character and the creators can use the former villain in new tales, it just irks me. Still love Faith
Its true but it has real life parallels. After WW2 plenty of Nazis were added to US science programs because they were useful. We let criminals off all the time because they can lead to bigger criminal convictions. Its one of those grey areas.
Omg every time with faith asking how this works and angel giving her a whole speech about redemption and then her being like umm... how dis microwave work? just kills me 😂😂😂
Fun fact: "Sanctuary" is also the name of the Angel title theme, performed by the band Darling Violetta. (Well, I think it's technically "The Sanctuary", but close enough.)
@@davewolf6256 so on the Angel soundtrack album the full version of the song is listed under the title "Angel Main Theme [The Sanctuary Extended Remix]". That's where I got the impression that the "the" was there... but maybe it was intended to be read as 'the "Sanctuary" extended remix'? Haven't been able to find anything definite either way
Buffy often gets crap from ppl in this episode, which I don't think is entirely fair, but I find it so telling that even in the midst of her betrayal and fury, and such comments as "if you apologise, I will beat you to death", the second that machine gun starts firing she grabs Faith and pulls her to the ground to protect her. Love that.
The only thing I dislike about Buffy's part in this the fact the Angel apologizes in the next episode. Angel was correct in trying to save Faith's soul and despite what Faith's done it wasn't required for her to know about or be involved.
Also worth remembering that Faith response with "go ahead." She tried getting Angel to due just that and it didn't work. Faith isn't ever sure she can have another chance at life. Buffy had already tried killing her before and looking at the hospital bed she clearly wished that didn't happen. She just wasn't gone to let Fatih get an easy way out. Yes Angel was basically right in that Buffy was a little to hung up on vengeance, but she was restating herself compared to the bounty hunter and giving with Faith had put her through the insistence on jail was totally understandable. Especially since all previous attempt Buffy made to reason with Faith had failed. At least Faith's decision to turn herself in validates her view a little.
My only issue with Buffy in this episode is when she's attacking Angel purely to hurt him, because she's mad (one of her few undesirable tendencies). It's immature and beneath her. She is 100,000,000% correct that Faith should be going to jail. If Angel feels Faith needs help to accept that, fine, but he's dead wrong to try to protect her from the consequences of her murderous and torturous crime spree. I understand the parallels with his own story, but that's his problem. By all means, try to save Faith's soul, but do it while she's behind bars.
@@mjtpli Buffy has always had a problem lashing out when Angel hurts her. She did it a few times in the last few episodes of season 3 as well. In this situation she was already irate about what Faith has done. She walks in on them hugged up on each other and he was even willing to get violent with her to protect Faith (yes she hit him first, but he hit back to protect Faith). I think she was feeling very betrayed. We still see her hero instincts kick in when needed. This episode highlights some of Buffy's less appealing traits, but I really don't see much inconsistency.
I love Faith and her arc so very much. She's such a fascinating study in trauma and how much it becomes an integral part of someone's identity. The moment they're in the elevator, looking exhausted and allowing herself to examine her own actions for what seems like the first time, cuts so very deep. The frantic talking, the panic attack, the seemingly casual suicidal ideation... She is one of my favourite characters in any media (along with dear Wesley) for good reason.
I so wish we could get a Faith show that starts with her as a potential. Getting her family story, the death or her watcher and then season 3 from her perspective. I think that would be amazing.
"is that the end of Faith's story?" .... at least until they finally greenlight my genius spinoff with Faith fighting demons behind bars. Working title: Blood is the New Black
honestly that title slaps and you should totally wait for Orange is the New Black to leave the public consciousness and then break out that shit to take the world by storm
@@alipie02 That was something Tim Minear and Joss Whedon wanted to do. Eliza Dushku wanted to move on to other things by that point though. This was proposed after Buffy ended.
In order to have a hope of truly turning back from evil, Faith had to go to jail. Long before she killed anyone she'd lost a clear sense of right or wrong ("want, take, have"). She believed Slayers were above human, above the law. The Mayor only reinforced her notions of morals being meaningless -power being all. She needed a clear line drawn so she could see herself on the wrong side of it. Only then can she start to heal.
I really enjoy your post-episode thoughts. When you were saying about Buffy having control over her life generally and Faith saying she can't really understand being on the other side, it made me wonder what the Buffy/Faith relationship would have been like if they'd met in BtVS s1 or s2 instead. Buffy often feels out of control of her life path in different ways as the show progresses and different shit happens to her. I also like how Faith's storyline reinforces a common theme in BtVS and Angel that it is so important to have a support system and not push people away. Which is hard for someone like Faith who has so much trouble trusting people and isn't used to people having her back without having ulterior motives.
Ah, you skipped over my favourite line of the episode: "This is getting ridiculous. The first assassin kills the second assassin--sent to kill the first assassin--who didn't assassinate anyone until we hired the second assassin to assassinate the first assassin." And also the bit with the cop calling Kate "Scully" 'cause Scully was the chick.
I do kind of feel bad for Buffy in this episode, lol they write her like an asshole so Angel can just dunk all over her and look like the righteous hero. SPOILER: Then they slide him in the backdoor of the next episode of Buffy where he apologizes like a little bitch and Buffy gets to be the boss on her show again lol
But isn’t that how we often communicate with recently past partners, it’s a grey area where you have baggage but want to be nice but are emotionally vulnerable.
You don't need. to justify supporting Faith and understanding how fracked up her situation was, while still understanding how much she hurt other people in turn. Redemption isn't fair and that's okay. The whole way she was treated, the stark contrast with her life and Buffy's even once she came to Sunnydale... yeah. You also don't need to justify liking Kate. She's awesome. Basically what I'm saying is have confidence in your interpretations, they're good and/or interesting and it's what we're here for ^^ And the whole story with Faith returning, and how it crashes into Angel... this mini-arc of three episodes is amazing and gives Faith the closure to her arc that she deserves.
Faith turning herself into the police was the ONLY way for her to start making things better. She can't do anything until she shows she's taking responsibility for herself. Angel is absolutely right to try to save her soul. He has no business trying to shield her from what she's done, which it seemed throughout the whole episode he was prepared to do. It's great she proves him right, but Buffy was absolutely correct that she NEEDS to be in jail. She just didn't need to attack Angel because her feelings were hurt on top of it. Angel's story having so many parallels may wrack him with guilt that he never had to be in jail, but he has paid his own price for over a century and has long since proven he's rehabilitated. Faith doesn't get to skip those steps just because Angel feels for her.
I think Angel's point wasn't that jail was never an option, but it would only work if Faith chose it herself, both mentally and physically. Angel was trying to get her into the right mind frame to believe in her own redemption, get her to a place mentally where she could maybe make that call to accept her punishment for her actions, but barely had a day before Buffy and the Council Goons bust in looking to whoop ass.
You mentioned a couple of times about Buffy trying to bring Faith into her friendship circle, but I actually feel it is the opposite. Remember that Buffy left her friends to spend time with Faith, rather than bringing them along. In that way, Buffy was isolating Faith from her friend circle, keeping them separate from each other.
Buffy’s right for most part and she absolutely deserves to be angry. But the whole thing with Angel screaming at her at the end is really frustrating. It’s like the writers wrote them both out of character so that Angel could look the best.
I just love the Council's plan here: Send three random humans against two Slayers and the world's most dangerous vampire. Oh, and have a shootout on a rooftop in the middle of the city with a freaking helicopter while the cops are on the way. Discrete. You can really tell why the Council needs the Slayers, if these are their "elite".
@@anatoldenevers237 True, the writing kinda let them down as they were only really in the episode to increase the tension. "In Universe" though the council is still able to flex their influence so killing the rouge slayers covering it up and starting fresh with the next one probably seemed like a good idea.
@@Mr.Agateophile. Yeah, it seems like a reasonable thing for them to do, but it seems like the crew they sent was woefully unprepared to deal with three Slayer level individuals. Side note, I love the part where Angel jumps through the roof and hijacks the helicopter, and then we get the shot of Angel on the copter flying over his city.
I love the scene where Angel says "I need you to give me that knife" and Faith looks down at her hand like she didn't realize what she was holding. I think she intended that knife for herself.
A lot of people don't like how Buffy acts in this episode (and she did cross some lines). But, Buffy is very empathetic. To people, sometimes demons, she cares and wants to help. Down side is when someone hurts her, it cuts her to her core.
I always just felt like the things she did and said were sometimes a bit out of character in this episode. Edit: Especially after the end of the body-swap episode. It felt like Buffy hurt for Faith over the way she viewed herself. And then she comes onto Angel after that and reacts like this and it just kind of confuses me.
Regarding Faith victimizing Buffy, while it is true, it really was the Mayor who victimized her more than Faith. The device that did the body swap was made by the Mayor, and he never told Faith what it would do. So even in this, Faith was not in control of her life, but having it decided for her by the Mayor, which is an example of the toxic influence he had on her.
4:09: Yep. Tim Minear, at the time already number 2 day-to-day producer, writing and rewriting in many episodes, asked Joss to write the Buffy scenes (fun fact: Tim asked the editor to put his name before Joss as a joke because normally if Joss co-wrote (credited I mean) his name appeared first) Minear: 'Also, Buffy was going to appear in this episode, and I found myself feeling very intimidated because I knew that half way through the story Buffy would appear. I would have to write this iconic important character that I’d never written before and I was already writing one iconic important character, Faith. So when I got to the Buffy/Angel scenes I approached Joss and said "Maybe you could take a crack a these scenes because I’m feeling a little overwhelmed here" and he graciously did. After that, I asked him if he would share a screen credit with me on the episode, which he did, and it was almost more exciting to see my name with Joss’s on an episode even then writing the episode itself. I liked that episode a lot.'
13:18 perhaps the exact moment Angel, as a show, began a new life as a separate series (in the same Buffy world, of course) rather than a connected spin off.
Sanctuary and the preceding episode Five By Five were two brilliant back to back episodes. Buffy coming back into the show again was a major surprise at the time, and Faith letting slip that she had had sex with Riley, who unbeknown to Angel was a major shock finding out that Buffy now had a new lover, you can see how hurt he is. Standout moment was actually Wesley's dart shot with the syringe, it was from this moment onwards that Wesley's character arc changes in the show.
@@michaelstanley5575 Not really every character has arc. Am just saying what did happen in the show to that point. That scene shows Wesley is changing. I have not given any details about future events.
@@killianlpc "from this moment onwards" is about as spoilery as you can get. But no more arguments. Take it as helpful criticism. 'Nuff said. No more responses.
@@michaelstanley5575 Sorry, but at no point did I mention future events. The scene shows what I said. Absolutely nobody was spoiled by that comment. No more responses please, leave it there.
Given that in interviews writers & directors on the show have compared Angel's vampire-ness to being a recovering alcoholic (gotta watch that "drinking" lol), "Murderers Anonymous" is actually a pretty apt description XD Personally, I have complicated feelings about Faith's decision to turn herself in and go to prison, but really I think that's actually the most important part: that it was HER CHOICE. She's someone who's spent so much time feeling like she doesn't really have any agency, that she has to just act out being the Bad Thing because she's forgotten how to be anything else, and so making that call--which was not something anyone else was TELLING her to do really--to give herself up to the regular old human authorities like that, I think was a step towards her reclaiming her own moral agency, and maybe give herself the time and space away from the world to learn how to eventually reclaim it fully. As for Buffy, I always felt like maybe she was pushing and overcompensating a bit, because we've seen how she CAN really sympathize with faith and want to believe the best her. I mean, when she first heard Faith had woken form her coma, Buffy's first thought was "maybe she's sorry! maybe she's scared! And so I think sometimes with Faith Buffy will go farther in the OTHER direction of being very harsh with her, because she's afraid of the vulnerability that connection she DOES HAVE with Faith can give her. I was also reminded, as to the Angel & trust thing, that while she DID trust him a lot when they were together, there actually was kind of some recurring "trust issues" as well? Like in 'Lie To Me' when she says "I love you; I don't know that I trust you" & her insecurities after he playacted being Angelus and being with Faith, that kind of thing. It's not really based on anything Angel DID, but might more just be speaking to her uncertainty & insecurity when being with someone who didn't tend to be the most open about their past or inner life, and who is both older and mysterious and all that jazz. (Kind of speaks to what you mentioned about maybe their dynamic just not being the most healthy in general lol.) So, I can KIND OF see how, looking back & comparing to Riley now, Buffy might feel like her relationship with Angel less "trust" in it, over all.
In universe: the thing that is special about Faith is that she is the active slayer. Most slayers are not activated until they are about 15 and don't live past 18 or so. With the active slayer secure behind bars, no new slayers can be called. This is part of why the Council is so desperate to take control of or eliminate Faith. She is a cosmic obstacle to the reason they exist.
For those curious Faith's (human) kill count is 2: the Deputy Mayor, by accident, and the volcanologist the Mayor had her murder because he had info on a dead Ascended demon, info Mr Mayor didn't want Buffy getting (namely that they can be killed post-Ascension). Now obviously she's injured a TON of people but I like how she doesn't have a crazy high body count because killing two people, one by accident, one on purpose, is more than enough to dominate a person's life forever and that drive helps motivate Faith on the road to redemption
Faith: “Whatever. I’m not lookin’ to hug and cry and learn and grow. One thing I like about this show is that Angel, on occasion, gets to show some emotion as in this episode. And as for hitting Buffy she can't have it both ways, can't be equal to men and still hit them without expecting retaliation. As Angel said she is a little stronger than he is (cool factoid). I disagree that the Mayor used Faith, he genuinely cared about her and demonstrated that in a lot of ways, gave her a nice apartment, a pretty (and expensive) knife, spent time with her (miniature golf!), gave her milk and cookies. He corrected her when she was wrong like any dad would. When she went missing he was the most upset we ever see him. "Find her!!!" Not because he wants to use her, he said she wouldn't be needed during the ascension, he was worried about her, more than Giles or Wesley ever were.
Echoes of the real world, like in Ted, or Anne. Such an amazing show. And another view of Buffy from the outside, like in Zeppo. And the punching, its like when the tool you usually use is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Loved your in-depth review of this episode--and its a great episode for it. And good luck with your master's thesis and everything. Don't you just love a show that really makes you think (at times) AND is seriously entertaining!
Not all Slayers are activated at age 15. And I always got the impression Faith is a year or two older than Buffy. But that's not to negate your other points. Though Buffy did try to offer her something of a stable home. But Faith's damage led her to reject it. And not just reject. She outright goes looking for the Mayor - goes looking for evil. He doesn't try to turn her out of the blue. She willingly walks over to his side without influence from others.
I always figured Faith for being younger. Buffy even refers to Faith as her "new little sister" in Faith's first episode, and Faith calls Buffy "big sis" in _Graduation_ Also Eliza Dusku is about four years younger than SMG
@@donsample1002 I can't remember where I read this but I believe Faith is supposed to be about one year younger than Buffy and the rest of the Scoobys.
I'd assume Faith has to be younger, because if she wasn't, the Council would have wanted to put her through the Cruciamentum test before they put Buffy through it.
Jaycie Victory That only makes sense if the only thing they wanted to do was kill their heir Slayer. No way an unpowered Slayer could survive Kakistos. It would be much simpler just to shoot her.
Buffy knew exactly what she was doing, she’s perfectly aware thay Angel still loved her that’s why she used her “relationship” with Riley to annoy Angel, to make him jealous because she clearly hadn’t moved on from him either.
Growth for Wesley 👏 It was quite big for him to betray the council whose approval he used to be so desperate for, and to protect Faith who'd just tortured him (and killed a bunch of people). I mean I think on some level he can also acknowledge that he's partly responsible for her getting to this point.
I think your count is a bit off. Allan -- manslaughter Lester -- murder Gavrok delivery guy -- maybe murder, we don't know for sure he was human, and not a humanoid demon
As Buffy proposing jail for Faith was out of anger, it was actually what Faith needed to redeemed herself. All that spiraling down started because she wanted to flee her responsabilities, and the consequences of her actions. Now that she accepted to get jailed, that she won't have to flee anymore, she could focus on her introspection.
Yeah Buffy and Angel right now are in such a place. They are both obviously still in love with each other in a way, but I feel like they feel like they have to hurt each other, to protect their own feelings, but we know that just makes one feel shite-ier. And GOOD LUCH on your thesis!!!
The morality of it all is definitely complex. For my mileage, I like the idea that, no matter how far someone has gone down the wrong road, they can always turn back. And then if they're really not a danger to anyone else, how do you proceed, can you forgive? And of course, given her history, it's a tall order for any of these characters to blindly trust that Faith truly won't do any more harm if she's set loose. There's the notion of giving people a chance to learn and grow, but it's balanced against so many other emotional and practical concerns. If their history is repeatedly violating trust and doing more harm, then there are only so many chances people can tolerate giving them. Some relationships just get too badly damaged to repair. Some consequences can't be taken back. Angel is a show that really gets into the task of examining the moral gray areas and it doesn't always come out with clear cut answers. Sometimes characters will make bad choices that are entirely their own fault and they have to deal with the consequences. There are conflicts like these between characters where each character can have entirely valid and complex reasons for coming at the conflict the way they do. Buffy is understandably furious, Faith is understandably messed up, and Angel is understandably defensive of Faith. At the end of the day, every viewer can walk away from it with different ideas and I think that's a strength that sets this show apart to a certain extent.
I think Buffy sees Faith as her responsibility. She is her shadow self. What Buffy could be if she let herself go bad. That coupled with still caring for Angel brought her to LA. To put Faith down.
It's weird that only Faith gets called as a shadow self to Buffy. And Faith is her dark reflection, who she'd be if her circumstances were different. But Cordelia is the shadow of who Buffy was before being called. Kendra the shadow of what a slayer is "supposed" to be.
Point about Wes supporting Angel: It's not only that he trusts Angel, it's that he's realized his own judgment when it comes to Faith is not trustworthy. That every time he's tried to take an active role with her it's been like pouring gasoline on a fire. It takes a big person to admit "I can't be the hero here." and follow another's lead. It's a huge step in his character growth from the smug authoritative know it all we met in Buffy.
I was never worried about what Faith would do. I don't think that she was fantasizing about killing him. My read was that's all she knows how to feel and how to relate to others is through violence so everyone uses her, including Wolfram and Hart, and it's terrifying her. The final moment in the last episode was her "soul" for lack of a better word pushing through and thinking that there was no redemption for her so death was her only way out of being used again and again to hurt other people. SInce Angel has been there done that he wasn't going to let her go. Of course some other people Faith has interacted with aren't quite as forgiving.
Also, let's remember that Faith's first "murder" was a mistake. It was done when both slayers were "acting out" and being wild together and abusing their "superpowers"... If it had been Buffy she would have been ruined also (maybe she would have turned herself in or maybe she would have been the slayer on the run). Since then Faith (corrupted by the Mayor) has done a bunch of bad stuff (partly in a self destructive spiral) but Buffy's judgemental, vengeful anger in this episode is almost all about the body-swap which, ironically, is the inciting moment for Faith wanting to atone; for her hurting Buffy in that way was worse than anything else she has done and she can't bear who she is. I love the contrast between the slayers being flipped in this episode - the light one is dark and vengeful and the dark one is repentant and seeking redemption...
Well when Buffy thought she killed Ted(she didn't know he was a robot yet) in season 2 she turned herself in and was ready to face the consequences of her actions. So I think that gives us some idea of how Buffy would have handled the situation if she had been the one to kill the deputy mayor.
@@jamie7398 agree (however it was a different situation so I don't want to flat out assume) but I think my point stands, right? I assume you're just agreeing with me by supporting enthymeme? If we're looking at other behaviours in the series
All the tension that came around Faith between the assassination attempt from the lawyers.. then the council.. and then Buffy punching it out with Angel over Faith. And then Kate comes in arresting Angel.. I feel like Faith came to terms to just turn herself in and it all stopped.
If you revisit season 1 and early season 2 of Buffy you can see that they always had this dramatic, soap opera like relationship that I always felt was very immature. But I thought was fitting with her being a teenager. So their argument at the end didn’t surprise me.
I don't think its a fantasy when Faith is imagining killing Angel. I think it is the turmoil Faith is going through being shown visually to the audience. I've talked about my opinion on Buffy being in this episode before so I won't go into much detail other than saying while I understand it as a great idea from a writing perspective, in-universe Buffy shouldn't have come because not only did Angel show Buffy was there more for vengeance than Angel being in danger, but when she realized this and realized she broke the rule she set down last time she was there of "staying out of each other's lives," she throws Riley in Angel's face.
Understanding/trying to understand all characters’ povs and the nuances of those povs is the way to go. I typically hate when fans just take sides (like it’s sports or something) or only view the situation in black and white binaries.
Don't apologize for seeing everyone's side in this episode. Buffy, the show's, POV can be gray (the demon that Faith killed for the books of ascension comes to mind) but it's mostly black and white. Angel as a show feels like it tackles more of the gray area. Everything surrounding Faith is super complicated but Angel's right, she wants to change. I think Faith choosing incarceration at the end is very powerful and shows she wants to repent for what she's done.
I may not speak for everyone, but I love your discussion. I watch some other reactors, and either they don’t have much to say, or I cut it off when I know whether or not they like it. But I watch to the end when it comes to your stuff. I love your vibe, and you always have a lot of insightful things to say, even when you get a bit scatterbrained. Don’t apologize for nothing.
This episode highlights the shittiness of the Watchers Council. They can afford *a goddamned helicopter* for their goons to tool around in, but Faith had to live alone in that shitty motel in Sunnydale. Imagine if they instead used some of that helicopter money to try to give Faith some semblance of a stable home life. Maybe they could have set her up with a foster family, or some sort of Watcher nanny who knows about Slayers and whatnot. But no. The Slayer is just a resource to be exploited until the next one comes around. So they budget for control, but not for nurturing. Come to think of it, is Giles rich? He comes from a long line of Watchers. At this point he's been unemployed for well over a year and hasn't batted an eye with regard to his finances. And since I see you're up to 5x08 on Patreon, it's not a spoiler to say he makes a couple of major purchases before securing a new source of income.
love this reaction!!!!! love Faith and i think her turning herself in it was the only thing she could do to start to redem herself, hope to keep reacting and uptade soon hehehe
Angel knows that he has been able to do good with his chance at redemption, and wants others to be afforded the same opportunity where possible. There is perhaps no greater relationship on the show that illustrates Angel living up to his name than the one shown between him and Faith, as he is indeed Faith's guiding light. Moreover, I like how Angel points out how redemption is not a finish line or end game, but rather a state of being...something sadly lost on many characters throughout media, many of whom seem to function only by means of a check list. A few of the many concepts the series explores spectacularly are the concept of hope and redemption, and the last two episodes are definitely up there with the best in digging into those ideas.
In 2009-2010 Eliza Dushku got her own Joss Whedon TV show. It was called Dollhouse... And like many Joss Whedon shows, it was canceled way too soon. However, it was 2 seasons and at some point, they must have gotten word that the series was going to be canceled so it did actually get an ending. Kinda mind-blowing ending as a matter of fact. After you finish Buffy you should check it out. Dollhouse, kinda weird premice but Joss made it work.
Let's be clear: Buffy wasn't out of character! As good and brave as she is, she is still a human being, and even good people can make mistakes and get caught up in negative emotions, and in this case Buffy is right to want a revenge on Faith, but at the same time with her ways she has ended up going wrong (if not completely). Honestly though, you couldn't hope for forgiveness to come right away, it will take time, and the fact that Buffy fought to save Faith is already really important. Speaking of Angel there is that he is motivated and hopeful to save Faith, he is trying to redeem himself just like her, on this point they are more like souls than him with Buffy. Angel then has a different goal than her ex-girlfriend: Buffy saves the lives of others while Angel saves their souls, she wants Faith to be punished but still helps her while he saves her from everything and everyone. The issue of the final quarell can be explained by various factors. Buffy does not remember anything of 1x08 while Angel yes, for her now their story is over while he will remain forever with those memories; it was a hurt for Buffy to see Angel prefer Faith to her after she'd been jealous of it for a long time. Surely Buffy could have spared that outing on Riley, but Angel didn't handle the situation well either ..... in the end they are both right and wrong to the same extent.
Love Faith, it's not like she said hey I'm gonna go kill a bunch of people, her & Buffy were on the way somewhere killing vampires along the way, dude jumps outta nowhere & she thought it was another vampire.
I was waiting for this reaction. I swear if I didn't watch Buffy I woulda thought she's the villain in this episode. This episode is sooooo good. Shout out from Cape Town!!!!!!
1. Wesley hasn't really tried to help faith. 2. "Faith wins again" line from buffy is very telling. 3. Seeing Faith and Angel together in an intimate setting also reminds Buffy of her jealousy of Faith and the fake romance she shared with Angel once in S3 of Buffy
This is really getting me hyped for Alleys future reactions, especially about (spoilers) . . . . . Buffy's relationships, the stuff with Riley and then Spike.
I don't remember if anyone ever brings it up, but I always believed jail/prison whatever would be meaningless and unjust for the Slayer. Part of a trial for murder is explaining what happened and why and gathering evidence. What could Faith possibly say to defend herself? "I was out trying to protect innocent people from vampires which is why I accidentally stabbed him in the heart with a wooden stake. Oh also, I'm a random teenage girl who is strong enough to do that because I've been chosen as a vampire slayer and given superpowers." The Watcher's Council isn't about to go up there and testify on her behalf- anyone who knows enough wouldn't, like Giles or Buffy or whatever and even if they did they'd all be called crazy or worse. The mayor is dead and we haven't seen any of his underlings alive since S3 finale. There is nobody to give context that SHOULD be given during any trial. The US justice system isn't even equipped to handle 100% mundane issues half the time- dealing with people who have serious mental health problems for example, it is inherently biased and unfair and ineffective. What makes anyone in their right mind believe that Faith would receive a fair trial? What makes anyone believe a stint in prison would help her even if she did get a fair trial and it wound up not in her favor? It just blows my mind that so many people who think it's fine that Buffy runs around doing the kind of stuff she did in Anne turn around and say prison is the only answer to Faith. Faith is deeply twisted and needs help, but that help won't be provided to her in a US prison. Not even close. I don't even LIKE Faith and I can recognize that for this situation, the police and jail and prison are the opposite of helpful. Angel was right every step of the way and I think at least part of the function of this episode was Angel telling Buffy to go back to Sunnydale and worry about her own problems, because when it comes to how she handles things in LA, she's both unhelpful and unwelcome and I think that's 100% valid. Saying Buffy has a right to be angry is valid. Saying Buffy has a right to waltz in and demand everyone bow to her imagined authority is quite another. She also needs to learn that she can't just start smacking people around when she doesn't get her way.
Buffy being spiteful... Gotta remember Angel always made so many decisions in their breakup and didn't give her the option about him leaving and breaking her heart.
Um, this is the Buffyverse. Anything can happen. Once you start expecting something, your expectation will get turned on its head. I don't know about you though, but this felt a lot more "real" than anything you were imagining.
Best of the season right here kind of brought down a little bit by the next Buffy episode but still great. Solidifies Angel as one of the all time great characters in fiction who believes in equal rights and lefts.
Is it my imagination or does faith have the knife the mayor gave her in her little murder fantasy at the very beginning?! It really looks like it if so that's something I never noticed before haha
This is why I'm generally not very interested in "what people deserve". Regardless of what they've done previously, I feel like the only real question is this: What is the optimum possible outcome based on the current situation, and what strategy has the best chance of bringing us to that outcome? Like, is "dead Faith" really an optimum outcome? Wouldn't a reformed Faith that does good in the world be a better outcome? Regardless of whether she's "deserved" that chance?
She was the one who first suggested that Angel start charging the people for helping them. Though for all I know she might also have some modeling gigs on the side
Or like team Angel called Giles, after Faith showed up out of nowhere and tried to crossbow Angel in back, to ask hey we were just attacked by a coma patient, wtf?
@@charlesbaldwin3166 now let’s say your theory is correct which I doubt Buffy would’ve stated Giles got a call from Wesley or cordy. Westly wouldn’t have called Giles because he trust Angel to take care of it. It’s possible cordy did it but honestly if she called Buffy she wouldn’t have left for her safety makes no sense
@@Alejandro333777 I don't have to theorize I just have go actually remember what happened. If you go back to around the eight minute mark of her reaction to the last episode the show literally cuts from the trio standing around going wait isn't Faith supposed to be in a coma to Angel hanging up the phone from talking to Giles.
@@charlesbaldwin3166 that’s irrelevant just because they ASKED about faith being in a coma doesn’t mean that they told Giles that faith tried to kill him
hello! just a heads up for the next month or so, upload schedule will be worse than normal bc i am working on my masters thesis rn to finalize it and its stressful 😭 so sorry
James Marsters.
Good luck queen!!
9:34 SO FUCKING TRUE 😂😂😂Giles just knows everything it’s like he has cameras around the world or something
Yaaaas academia!! Best of luck. :)
Your thoughts weren't a mess in this video! Thoroughly enjoyed them 😊
I think Faith's fantasy moment of killing Angel is just supposed to signify that despite her epiphany moment in the rain, you don't just suddenly stop being homicidal or a past murderer.
Exactly - it's not necessarily her "true feelings" so much as it is an underlying impulse, an visceral urge to commit violence that hasn't gone away.
Also mirrors the end of "Consequences" in Buffy S3. (edit: no it was in 3x7 "Revelations", after the whole Gwendolyn Post disaster)
Then it was (almost) reaching out for support, now it's devolved into fantasies of violence.
Not to mention a callback to when she had the same kind of daydream about stabbing Willow in "Who Are You?" when she was in Buffy's body.
Also trauma flashbacks/replays and intrusive thoughts. It's very scary.
I actually enjoyed the fact that Faith turned herself in and took responsibility for her crimes, and was willing to accept her punishment. One of my pet peeves is when villains turn good then get to run around free having fun adventures because they're 'sorry' now, but they can do more good if they are out and about and not in a cell. I understand that it's because fans like the character and the creators can use the former villain in new tales, it just irks me. Still love Faith
Its true but it has real life parallels. After WW2 plenty of Nazis were added to US science programs because they were useful. We let criminals off all the time because they can lead to bigger criminal convictions. Its one of those grey areas.
Agreed!
yea she ended your father and then get a redemption arc....but at least she is ain jail now
Omg every time with faith asking how this works and angel giving her a whole speech about redemption and then her being like umm... how dis microwave work? just kills me 😂😂😂
Fun fact: "Sanctuary" is also the name of the Angel title theme, performed by the band Darling Violetta. (Well, I think it's technically "The Sanctuary", but close enough.)
Drop the “the.” Just “Sanctuary.”
@@davewolf6256 so on the Angel soundtrack album the full version of the song is listed under the title "Angel Main Theme [The Sanctuary Extended Remix]". That's where I got the impression that the "the" was there... but maybe it was intended to be read as 'the "Sanctuary" extended remix'? Haven't been able to find anything definite either way
Yeah, I emailed the extended song from the "Live Fast, Die Never" album to Alley as an attachment a while back.
Buffy often gets crap from ppl in this episode, which I don't think is entirely fair, but I find it so telling that even in the midst of her betrayal and fury, and such comments as "if you apologise, I will beat you to death", the second that machine gun starts firing she grabs Faith and pulls her to the ground to protect her. Love that.
The only thing I dislike about Buffy's part in this the fact the Angel apologizes in the next episode. Angel was correct in trying to save Faith's soul and despite what Faith's done it wasn't required for her to know about or be involved.
Also worth remembering that Faith response with "go ahead." She tried getting Angel to due just that and it didn't work. Faith isn't ever sure she can have another chance at life. Buffy had already tried killing her before and looking at the hospital bed she clearly wished that didn't happen. She just wasn't gone to let Fatih get an easy way out.
Yes Angel was basically right in that Buffy was a little to hung up on vengeance, but she was restating herself compared to the bounty hunter and giving with Faith had put her through the insistence on jail was totally understandable. Especially since all previous attempt Buffy made to reason with Faith had failed. At least Faith's decision to turn herself in validates her view a little.
My only issue with Buffy in this episode is when she's attacking Angel purely to hurt him, because she's mad (one of her few undesirable tendencies). It's immature and beneath her. She is 100,000,000% correct that Faith should be going to jail. If Angel feels Faith needs help to accept that, fine, but he's dead wrong to try to protect her from the consequences of her murderous and torturous crime spree. I understand the parallels with his own story, but that's his problem. By all means, try to save Faith's soul, but do it while she's behind bars.
I think it's debatable whether the Buffy in this ep is consistent with the Buffy we know from 3 ½ seasons.
@@mjtpli Buffy has always had a problem lashing out when Angel hurts her. She did it a few times in the last few episodes of season 3 as well. In this situation she was already irate about what Faith has done. She walks in on them hugged up on each other and he was even willing to get violent with her to protect Faith (yes she hit him first, but he hit back to protect Faith). I think she was feeling very betrayed. We still see her hero instincts kick in when needed. This episode highlights some of Buffy's less appealing traits, but I really don't see much inconsistency.
I love Faith and her arc so very much. She's such a fascinating study in trauma and how much it becomes an integral part of someone's identity. The moment they're in the elevator, looking exhausted and allowing herself to examine her own actions for what seems like the first time, cuts so very deep. The frantic talking, the panic attack, the seemingly casual suicidal ideation... She is one of my favourite characters in any media (along with dear Wesley) for good reason.
I so wish we could get a Faith show that starts with her as a potential. Getting her family story, the death or her watcher and then season 3 from her perspective. I think that would be amazing.
"is that the end of Faith's story?"
.... at least until they finally greenlight my genius spinoff with Faith fighting demons behind bars. Working title: Blood is the New Black
honestly that title slaps and you should totally wait for Orange is the New Black to leave the public consciousness and then break out that shit to take the world by storm
Genius
I always wanted a spinoff of Faith and Spike traveling around the country on motorcycles fighting demons together.
@@alipie02 That was something Tim Minear and Joss Whedon wanted to do. Eliza Dushku wanted to move on to other things by that point though. This was proposed after Buffy ended.
@@TheGeorgeD13 damn my dream could have come true.
In order to have a hope of truly turning back from evil, Faith had to go to jail. Long before she killed anyone she'd lost a clear sense of right or wrong ("want, take, have"). She believed Slayers were above human, above the law. The Mayor only reinforced her notions of morals being meaningless -power being all. She needed a clear line drawn so she could see herself on the wrong side of it. Only then can she start to heal.
The 4 episode arc of Faith across Buffy & Angel is one of my favorite things in the Buffyverse!
I really enjoy your post-episode thoughts. When you were saying about Buffy having control over her life generally and Faith saying she can't really understand being on the other side, it made me wonder what the Buffy/Faith relationship would have been like if they'd met in BtVS s1 or s2 instead. Buffy often feels out of control of her life path in different ways as the show progresses and different shit happens to her. I also like how Faith's storyline reinforces a common theme in BtVS and Angel that it is so important to have a support system and not push people away. Which is hard for someone like Faith who has so much trouble trusting people and isn't used to people having her back without having ulterior motives.
Ah, you skipped over my favourite line of the episode:
"This is getting ridiculous. The first assassin kills the second assassin--sent to kill the first assassin--who didn't assassinate anyone until we hired the second assassin to assassinate the first assassin."
And also the bit with the cop calling Kate "Scully" 'cause Scully was the chick.
"Schtop. Dis is starting to sound like vun of dose plans vere ve kill everyone who finds out ve's killing people."
Tim Minear just came from X-Files writers room
Angel's final dialogue translated:
"Damm Buffy, it's my show now! Go back to your show and then you can give orders again!"
I do kind of feel bad for Buffy in this episode, lol they write her like an asshole so Angel can just dunk all over her and look like the righteous hero.
SPOILER:
Then they slide him in the backdoor of the next episode of Buffy where he apologizes like a little bitch and Buffy gets to be the boss on her show again lol
Yep. It’s really annoying when writers purposefully misportray characters so that one can look better than the other on their show
But isn’t that how we often communicate with recently past partners, it’s a grey area where you have baggage but want to be nice but are emotionally vulnerable.
You don't need. to justify supporting Faith and understanding how fracked up her situation was, while still understanding how much she hurt other people in turn. Redemption isn't fair and that's okay. The whole way she was treated, the stark contrast with her life and Buffy's even once she came to Sunnydale... yeah.
You also don't need to justify liking Kate. She's awesome. Basically what I'm saying is have confidence in your interpretations, they're good and/or interesting and it's what we're here for ^^
And the whole story with Faith returning, and how it crashes into Angel... this mini-arc of three episodes is amazing and gives Faith the closure to her arc that she deserves.
Angel believes in redeeming people so much because if they can be redeemed, maybe he himself has a shot one day.
Faith turning herself into the police was the ONLY way for her to start making things better. She can't do anything until she shows she's taking responsibility for herself. Angel is absolutely right to try to save her soul. He has no business trying to shield her from what she's done, which it seemed throughout the whole episode he was prepared to do. It's great she proves him right, but Buffy was absolutely correct that she NEEDS to be in jail. She just didn't need to attack Angel because her feelings were hurt on top of it. Angel's story having so many parallels may wrack him with guilt that he never had to be in jail, but he has paid his own price for over a century and has long since proven he's rehabilitated. Faith doesn't get to skip those steps just because Angel feels for her.
I think Angel's point wasn't that jail was never an option, but it would only work if Faith chose it herself, both mentally and physically. Angel was trying to get her into the right mind frame to believe in her own redemption, get her to a place mentally where she could maybe make that call to accept her punishment for her actions, but barely had a day before Buffy and the Council Goons bust in looking to whoop ass.
You mentioned a couple of times about Buffy trying to bring Faith into her friendship circle, but I actually feel it is the opposite. Remember that Buffy left her friends to spend time with Faith, rather than bringing them along. In that way, Buffy was isolating Faith from her friend circle, keeping them separate from each other.
Buffy’s right for most part and she absolutely deserves to be angry. But the whole thing with Angel screaming at her at the end is really frustrating. It’s like the writers wrote them both out of character so that Angel could look the best.
I just love the Council's plan here: Send three random humans against two Slayers and the world's most dangerous vampire. Oh, and have a shootout on a rooftop in the middle of the city with a freaking helicopter while the cops are on the way. Discrete. You can really tell why the Council needs the Slayers, if these are their "elite".
The Council is pretty desperate at this point.
@@Mr.Agateophile. Yeah, but still, this plan was so idiotic
@@anatoldenevers237 True, the writing kinda let them down as they were only really in the episode to increase the tension. "In Universe" though the council is still able to flex their influence so killing the rouge slayers covering it up and starting fresh with the next one probably seemed like a good idea.
@@Mr.Agateophile. Yeah, it seems like a reasonable thing for them to do, but it seems like the crew they sent was woefully unprepared to deal with three Slayer level individuals.
Side note, I love the part where Angel jumps through the roof and hijacks the helicopter, and then we get the shot of Angel on the copter flying over his city.
I love the scene where Angel says "I need you to give me that knife" and Faith looks down at her hand like she didn't realize what she was holding. I think she intended that knife for herself.
A lot of people don't like how Buffy acts in this episode (and she did cross some lines).
But, Buffy is very empathetic. To people, sometimes demons, she cares and wants to help.
Down side is when someone hurts her, it cuts her to her core.
I always just felt like the things she did and said were sometimes a bit out of character in this episode.
Edit: Especially after the end of the body-swap episode. It felt like Buffy hurt for Faith over the way she viewed herself. And then she comes onto Angel after that and reacts like this and it just kind of confuses me.
Regarding Faith victimizing Buffy, while it is true, it really was the Mayor who victimized her more than Faith. The device that did the body swap was made by the Mayor, and he never told Faith what it would do. So even in this, Faith was not in control of her life, but having it decided for her by the Mayor, which is an example of the toxic influence he had on her.
It’s nice to see someone enjoying this show. I loved Buffy and Angel.
Faith couldnt have this epiphany when she woke up from the coma. she woke up to find her adoptive father had been killed.
Im watching reaction and its funny when people say " adoptive father" like that grown man groomed and manipulated a traumatized teenager to be evil.
4:09: Yep. Tim Minear, at the time already number 2 day-to-day producer, writing and rewriting in many episodes, asked Joss to write the Buffy scenes (fun fact: Tim asked the editor to put his name before Joss as a joke because normally if Joss co-wrote (credited I mean) his name appeared first)
Minear: 'Also, Buffy was going to appear in this episode, and I found myself feeling very intimidated because I knew that half way through the story Buffy would appear. I would have to write this iconic important character that I’d never written before and I was already writing one iconic important character, Faith. So when I got to the Buffy/Angel scenes I approached Joss and said "Maybe you could take a crack a these scenes because I’m feeling a little overwhelmed here" and he graciously did.
After that, I asked him if he would share a screen credit with me on the episode, which he did, and it was almost more exciting to see my name with Joss’s on an episode even then writing the episode itself. I liked that episode a lot.'
Genius move from Tim
Alley is a hot mess in the intro and I am here for it.
13:18 perhaps the exact moment Angel, as a show, began a new life as a separate series (in the same Buffy world, of course) rather than a connected spin off.
Sanctuary and the preceding episode Five By Five were two brilliant back to back episodes. Buffy coming back into the show again was a major surprise at the time, and Faith letting slip that she had had sex with Riley, who unbeknown to Angel was a major shock finding out that Buffy now had a new lover, you can see how hurt he is. Standout moment was actually Wesley's dart shot with the syringe, it was from this moment onwards that Wesley's character arc changes in the show.
Talking about arc change sounds like spoilers.
Apparently Angel saying Buffy should find someone else is one thing and seeing it happen is another.
@@michaelstanley5575 Not really every character has arc. Am just saying what did happen in the show to that point. That scene shows Wesley is changing. I have not given any details about future events.
@@killianlpc "from this moment onwards" is about as spoilery as you can get. But no more arguments. Take it as helpful criticism. 'Nuff said. No more responses.
@@michaelstanley5575 Sorry, but at no point did I mention future events. The scene shows what I said. Absolutely nobody was spoiled by that comment. No more responses please, leave it there.
Given that in interviews writers & directors on the show have compared Angel's vampire-ness to being a recovering alcoholic (gotta watch that "drinking" lol), "Murderers Anonymous" is actually a pretty apt description XD
Personally, I have complicated feelings about Faith's decision to turn herself in and go to prison, but really I think that's actually the most important part: that it was HER CHOICE. She's someone who's spent so much time feeling like she doesn't really have any agency, that she has to just act out being the Bad Thing because she's forgotten how to be anything else, and so making that call--which was not something anyone else was TELLING her to do really--to give herself up to the regular old human authorities like that, I think was a step towards her reclaiming her own moral agency, and maybe give herself the time and space away from the world to learn how to eventually reclaim it fully.
As for Buffy, I always felt like maybe she was pushing and overcompensating a bit, because we've seen how she CAN really sympathize with faith and want to believe the best her. I mean, when she first heard Faith had woken form her coma, Buffy's first thought was "maybe she's sorry! maybe she's scared! And so I think sometimes with Faith Buffy will go farther in the OTHER direction of being very harsh with her, because she's afraid of the vulnerability that connection she DOES HAVE with Faith can give her.
I was also reminded, as to the Angel & trust thing, that while she DID trust him a lot when they were together, there actually was kind of some recurring "trust issues" as well? Like in 'Lie To Me' when she says "I love you; I don't know that I trust you" & her insecurities after he playacted being Angelus and being with Faith, that kind of thing. It's not really based on anything Angel DID, but might more just be speaking to her uncertainty & insecurity when being with someone who didn't tend to be the most open about their past or inner life, and who is both older and mysterious and all that jazz. (Kind of speaks to what you mentioned about maybe their dynamic just not being the most healthy in general lol.) So, I can KIND OF see how, looking back & comparing to Riley now, Buffy might feel like her relationship with Angel less "trust" in it, over all.
I just realized... a great way to troll the audience would have been to have Faith in the opening credits of this episode.
only a true warrior and hero like jonathan has the sort of power to change a title sequence.
Keep in mind that Wesley is at least somewhat responsible for how Faith got here.
In universe: the thing that is special about Faith is that she is the active slayer. Most slayers are not activated until they are about 15 and don't live past 18 or so. With the active slayer secure behind bars, no new slayers can be called. This is part of why the Council is so desperate to take control of or eliminate Faith. She is a cosmic obstacle to the reason they exist.
For those curious Faith's (human) kill count is 2: the Deputy Mayor, by accident, and the volcanologist the Mayor had her murder because he had info on a dead Ascended demon, info Mr Mayor didn't want Buffy getting (namely that they can be killed post-Ascension). Now obviously she's injured a TON of people but I like how she doesn't have a crazy high body count because killing two people, one by accident, one on purpose, is more than enough to dominate a person's life forever and that drive helps motivate Faith on the road to redemption
"It wasn't too terribly long ago I had full feeling in my right arm."
That line always hits me so hard.
Faith: “Whatever. I’m not lookin’ to hug and cry and learn and grow.
One thing I like about this show is that Angel, on occasion, gets to show some emotion as in this episode. And as for hitting Buffy she can't have it both ways, can't be equal to men and still hit them without expecting retaliation. As Angel said she is a little stronger than he is (cool factoid).
I disagree that the Mayor used Faith, he genuinely cared about her and demonstrated that in a lot of ways, gave her a nice apartment, a pretty (and expensive) knife, spent time with her (miniature golf!), gave her milk and cookies. He corrected her when she was wrong like any dad would. When she went missing he was the most upset we ever see him. "Find her!!!" Not because he wants to use her, he said she wouldn't be needed during the ascension, he was worried about her, more than Giles or Wesley ever were.
Echoes of the real world, like in Ted, or Anne. Such an amazing show.
And another view of Buffy from the outside, like in Zeppo.
And the punching, its like when the tool you usually use is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
Loved your in-depth review of this episode--and its a great episode for it. And good luck with your master's thesis and everything.
Don't you just love a show that really makes you think (at times) AND is seriously entertaining!
Not all Slayers are activated at age 15. And I always got the impression Faith is a year or two older than Buffy. But that's not to negate your other points. Though Buffy did try to offer her something of a stable home. But Faith's damage led her to reject it. And not just reject. She outright goes looking for the Mayor - goes looking for evil. He doesn't try to turn her out of the blue. She willingly walks over to his side without influence from others.
I always figured Faith for being younger. Buffy even refers to Faith as her "new little sister" in Faith's first episode, and Faith calls Buffy "big sis" in _Graduation_
Also Eliza Dusku is about four years younger than SMG
@@donsample1002 I can't remember where I read this but I believe Faith is supposed to be about one year younger than Buffy and the rest of the Scoobys.
I'd assume Faith has to be younger, because if she wasn't, the Council would have wanted to put her through the Cruciamentum test before they put Buffy through it.
@@lurker1316 There's a fan theory that Kakistos was Faith's
Cruciamentum and her watcher died when it went wrong
Jaycie Victory That only makes sense if the only thing they wanted to do was kill their heir Slayer. No way an unpowered Slayer could survive Kakistos. It would be much simpler just to shoot her.
Buffy knew exactly what she was doing, she’s perfectly aware thay Angel still loved her that’s why she used her “relationship” with Riley to annoy Angel, to make him jealous because she clearly hadn’t moved on from him either.
Exactly. She was intentionally trying to hurt him with what she said.
Just found out that Eliza Dushku in 2000 was in a cheerleader movie with Kirsten Dunst called "Bring it on". She went from Slayer to cheerleader?!
1:45 Yeah Faith hates herself but she still has an ego, she imagined herself being killed in glorious single combat with Angel.
Growth for Wesley 👏 It was quite big for him to betray the council whose approval he used to be so desperate for, and to protect Faith who'd just tortured him (and killed a bunch of people).
I mean I think on some level he can also acknowledge that he's partly responsible for her getting to this point.
15:00 Faith is guilty of 4 counts of premeditated murder and one count of manslaughter.
I think your count is a bit off.
Allan -- manslaughter
Lester -- murder
Gavrok delivery guy -- maybe murder, we don't know for sure he was human, and not a humanoid demon
And these are the eps where the series REALLY found its' feet.
2:15 Faith is in no condition to do double agent work right now.
Love your analysis of Faith towards the end!
Fun fact: Eliza Dushku was 17 when she first appeared on Buffy.
These last two episodes are the birth of real Wesley! Aka best character!
This is exactly the Buffy discourse I was looking for 13 years ago
As Buffy proposing jail for Faith was out of anger, it was actually what Faith needed to redeemed herself. All that spiraling down started because she wanted to flee her responsabilities, and the consequences of her actions. Now that she accepted to get jailed, that she won't have to flee anymore, she could focus on her introspection.
Yeah Buffy and Angel right now are in such a place. They are both obviously still in love with each other in a way, but I feel like they feel like they have to hurt each other, to protect their own feelings, but we know that just makes one feel shite-ier.
And GOOD LUCH on your thesis!!!
17:30 He's Faith's watcher! If he was any good at his job faith would never have fallen.
The morality of it all is definitely complex. For my mileage, I like the idea that, no matter how far someone has gone down the wrong road, they can always turn back. And then if they're really not a danger to anyone else, how do you proceed, can you forgive? And of course, given her history, it's a tall order for any of these characters to blindly trust that Faith truly won't do any more harm if she's set loose. There's the notion of giving people a chance to learn and grow, but it's balanced against so many other emotional and practical concerns. If their history is repeatedly violating trust and doing more harm, then there are only so many chances people can tolerate giving them. Some relationships just get too badly damaged to repair. Some consequences can't be taken back. Angel is a show that really gets into the task of examining the moral gray areas and it doesn't always come out with clear cut answers. Sometimes characters will make bad choices that are entirely their own fault and they have to deal with the consequences. There are conflicts like these between characters where each character can have entirely valid and complex reasons for coming at the conflict the way they do. Buffy is understandably furious, Faith is understandably messed up, and Angel is understandably defensive of Faith. At the end of the day, every viewer can walk away from it with different ideas and I think that's a strength that sets this show apart to a certain extent.
I think Buffy sees Faith as her responsibility. She is her shadow self. What Buffy could be if she let herself go bad. That coupled with still caring for Angel brought her to LA. To put Faith down.
It's weird that only Faith gets called as a shadow self to Buffy. And Faith is her dark reflection, who she'd be if her circumstances were different. But Cordelia is the shadow of who Buffy was before being called. Kendra the shadow of what a slayer is "supposed" to be.
@@lars573 Yes, they are all what could have been :)
Point about Wes supporting Angel: It's not only that he trusts Angel, it's that he's realized his own judgment when it comes to Faith is not trustworthy. That every time he's tried to take an active role with her it's been like pouring gasoline on a fire.
It takes a big person to admit "I can't be the hero here." and follow another's lead. It's a huge step in his character growth from the smug authoritative know it all we met in Buffy.
I was never worried about what Faith would do. I don't think that she was fantasizing about killing him. My read was that's all she knows how to feel and how to relate to others is through violence so everyone uses her, including Wolfram and Hart, and it's terrifying her. The final moment in the last episode was her "soul" for lack of a better word pushing through and thinking that there was no redemption for her so death was her only way out of being used again and again to hurt other people. SInce Angel has been there done that he wasn't going to let her go. Of course some other people Faith has interacted with aren't quite as forgiving.
Also, let's remember that Faith's first "murder" was a mistake. It was done when both slayers were "acting out" and being wild together and abusing their "superpowers"... If it had been Buffy she would have been ruined also (maybe she would have turned herself in or maybe she would have been the slayer on the run).
Since then Faith (corrupted by the Mayor) has done a bunch of bad stuff (partly in a self destructive spiral) but Buffy's judgemental, vengeful anger in this episode is almost all about the body-swap which, ironically, is the inciting moment for Faith wanting to atone; for her hurting Buffy in that way was worse than anything else she has done and she can't bear who she is. I love the contrast between the slayers being flipped in this episode - the light one is dark and vengeful and the dark one is repentant and seeking redemption...
Well when Buffy thought she killed Ted(she didn't know he was a robot yet) in season 2 she turned herself in and was ready to face the consequences of her actions. So I think that gives us some idea of how Buffy would have handled the situation if she had been the one to kill the deputy mayor.
@@jamie7398 agree (however it was a different situation so I don't want to flat out assume) but I think my point stands, right? I assume you're just agreeing with me by supporting enthymeme?
If we're looking at other behaviours in the series
When Angel tells Buffy "Not in my city" is the moment the show went from being "The Buffy Spinoff" to "Angel."
All the tension that came around Faith between the assassination attempt from the lawyers.. then the council.. and then Buffy punching it out with Angel over Faith. And then Kate comes in arresting Angel.. I feel like Faith came to terms to just turn herself in and it all stopped.
With Angel it's all a lot more recent regarding Buffy. She doesn't remember that day of Angel being human while he does
If you revisit season 1 and early season 2 of Buffy you can see that they always had this dramatic, soap opera like relationship that I always felt was very immature. But I thought was fitting with her being a teenager. So their argument at the end didn’t surprise me.
Awesome reaction and review. We are totally here for it, no matter how long and wide-ranging it gets. Good luck on your thesis!
I don't think its a fantasy when Faith is imagining killing Angel. I think it is the turmoil Faith is going through being shown visually to the audience.
I've talked about my opinion on Buffy being in this episode before so I won't go into much detail other than saying while I understand it as a great idea from a writing perspective, in-universe Buffy shouldn't have come because not only did Angel show Buffy was there more for vengeance than Angel being in danger, but when she realized this and realized she broke the rule she set down last time she was there of "staying out of each other's lives," she throws Riley in Angel's face.
Understanding/trying to understand all characters’ povs and the nuances of those povs is the way to go. I typically hate when fans just take sides (like it’s sports or something) or only view the situation in black and white binaries.
Don't apologize for seeing everyone's side in this episode. Buffy, the show's, POV can be gray (the demon that Faith killed for the books of ascension comes to mind) but it's mostly black and white.
Angel as a show feels like it tackles more of the gray area. Everything surrounding Faith is super complicated but Angel's right, she wants to change. I think Faith choosing incarceration at the end is very powerful and shows she wants to repent for what she's done.
One of the best episodes, fuel to so many fanfics
I may not speak for everyone, but I love your discussion. I watch some other reactors, and either they don’t have much to say, or I cut it off when I know whether or not they like it. But I watch to the end when it comes to your stuff. I love your vibe, and you always have a lot of insightful things to say, even when you get a bit scatterbrained. Don’t apologize for nothing.
29:15 Her first watcher died her second watcher tried to kill her.
And her third Watcher was... Wesley. 🙄
Looks like angel is gonna need a hand dealing with Wolfram and Heart
This episode highlights the shittiness of the Watchers Council. They can afford *a goddamned helicopter* for their goons to tool around in, but Faith had to live alone in that shitty motel in Sunnydale. Imagine if they instead used some of that helicopter money to try to give Faith some semblance of a stable home life. Maybe they could have set her up with a foster family, or some sort of Watcher nanny who knows about Slayers and whatnot. But no. The Slayer is just a resource to be exploited until the next one comes around. So they budget for control, but not for nurturing.
Come to think of it, is Giles rich? He comes from a long line of Watchers. At this point he's been unemployed for well over a year and hasn't batted an eye with regard to his finances. And since I see you're up to 5x08 on Patreon, it's not a spoiler to say he makes a couple of major purchases before securing a new source of income.
love this reaction!!!!! love Faith and i think her turning herself in it was the only thing she could do to start to redem herself, hope to keep reacting and uptade soon hehehe
This episode really did Angel and Buffy dirty.
If anyone would understand the need for redemption it is Angel.
Angel knows that he has been able to do good with his chance at redemption, and wants others to be afforded the same opportunity where possible. There is perhaps no greater relationship on the show that illustrates Angel living up to his name than the one shown between him and Faith, as he is indeed Faith's guiding light. Moreover, I like how Angel points out how redemption is not a finish line or end game, but rather a state of being...something sadly lost on many characters throughout media, many of whom seem to function only by means of a check list.
A few of the many concepts the series explores spectacularly are the concept of hope and redemption, and the last two episodes are definitely up there with the best in digging into those ideas.
In 2009-2010 Eliza Dushku got her own Joss Whedon TV show. It was called Dollhouse... And like many Joss Whedon shows, it was canceled way too soon. However, it was 2 seasons and at some point, they must have gotten word that the series was going to be canceled so it did actually get an ending. Kinda mind-blowing ending as a matter of fact. After you finish Buffy you should check it out. Dollhouse, kinda weird premice but Joss made it work.
Seconding this rec. Especially for a psych major, Dollhouse should be rife with interesting and complex subject matter.
Faith will return, but for now she had to follow her Tru Calling
I understand your love for Kate. I always loved her, too.
Let's be clear: Buffy wasn't out of character!
As good and brave as she is, she is still a human being, and even good people can make mistakes and get caught up in negative emotions, and in this case Buffy is right to want a revenge on Faith, but at the same time with her ways she has ended up going wrong (if not completely).
Honestly though, you couldn't hope for forgiveness to come right away, it will take time, and the fact that Buffy fought to save Faith is already really important.
Speaking of Angel there is that he is motivated and hopeful to save Faith, he is trying to redeem himself just like her, on this point they are more like souls than him with Buffy. Angel then has a different goal than her ex-girlfriend: Buffy saves the lives of others while Angel saves their souls, she wants Faith to be punished but still helps her while he saves her from everything and everyone.
The issue of the final quarell can be explained by various factors. Buffy does not remember anything of 1x08 while Angel yes, for her now their story is over while he will remain forever with those memories; it was a hurt for Buffy to see Angel prefer Faith to her after she'd been jealous of it for a long time. Surely Buffy could have spared that outing on Riley, but Angel didn't handle the situation well either ..... in the end they are both right and wrong to the same extent.
Love Faith, it's not like she said hey I'm gonna go kill a bunch of people, her & Buffy were on the way somewhere killing vampires along the way, dude jumps outta nowhere & she thought it was another vampire.
Faith stabbing Angel in her fantasy is a callback to her "doing" the same thing to Willow in Buffy S04E16 "Who Are You".
Straight to Jail!
I was waiting for this reaction. I swear if I didn't watch Buffy I woulda thought she's the villain in this episode. This episode is sooooo good. Shout out from Cape Town!!!!!!
1. Wesley hasn't really tried to help faith.
2. "Faith wins again" line from buffy is very telling.
3. Seeing Faith and Angel together in an intimate setting also reminds Buffy of her jealousy of Faith and the fake romance she shared with Angel once in S3 of Buffy
This is really getting me hyped for Alleys future reactions, especially about (spoilers)
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Buffy's relationships, the stuff with Riley and then Spike.
I don't remember if anyone ever brings it up, but I always believed jail/prison whatever would be meaningless and unjust for the Slayer. Part of a trial for murder is explaining what happened and why and gathering evidence. What could Faith possibly say to defend herself? "I was out trying to protect innocent people from vampires which is why I accidentally stabbed him in the heart with a wooden stake. Oh also, I'm a random teenage girl who is strong enough to do that because I've been chosen as a vampire slayer and given superpowers." The Watcher's Council isn't about to go up there and testify on her behalf- anyone who knows enough wouldn't, like Giles or Buffy or whatever and even if they did they'd all be called crazy or worse. The mayor is dead and we haven't seen any of his underlings alive since S3 finale. There is nobody to give context that SHOULD be given during any trial.
The US justice system isn't even equipped to handle 100% mundane issues half the time- dealing with people who have serious mental health problems for example, it is inherently biased and unfair and ineffective. What makes anyone in their right mind believe that Faith would receive a fair trial? What makes anyone believe a stint in prison would help her even if she did get a fair trial and it wound up not in her favor? It just blows my mind that so many people who think it's fine that Buffy runs around doing the kind of stuff she did in Anne turn around and say prison is the only answer to Faith. Faith is deeply twisted and needs help, but that help won't be provided to her in a US prison. Not even close.
I don't even LIKE Faith and I can recognize that for this situation, the police and jail and prison are the opposite of helpful. Angel was right every step of the way and I think at least part of the function of this episode was Angel telling Buffy to go back to Sunnydale and worry about her own problems, because when it comes to how she handles things in LA, she's both unhelpful and unwelcome and I think that's 100% valid. Saying Buffy has a right to be angry is valid. Saying Buffy has a right to waltz in and demand everyone bow to her imagined authority is quite another. She also needs to learn that she can't just start smacking people around when she doesn't get her way.
Have you heard of Dollhouse? It stars Eliza Dushku and is another Joss Whedon show
Buffy being spiteful... Gotta remember Angel always made so many decisions in their breakup and didn't give her the option about him leaving and breaking her heart.
I so get your point about being able to talk this from everyone's point of view 😅
Um, this is the Buffyverse. Anything can happen. Once you start expecting something, your expectation will get turned on its head. I don't know about you though, but this felt a lot more "real" than anything you were imagining.
Loved the Parks and Rec reference! 😂
I FUCKING LOVE THIS SHOW !!!!!
I enjoy your reactions, do well in school! Look forward to future reactions!
Best of the season right here kind of brought down a little bit by the next Buffy episode but still great. Solidifies Angel as one of the all time great characters in fiction who believes in equal rights and lefts.
ur not a faith apologist ur an empathizer
I love Eliza Dushku.
Is it my imagination or does faith have the knife the mayor gave her in her little murder fantasy at the very beginning?! It really looks like it if so that's something I never noticed before haha
This is why I'm generally not very interested in "what people deserve". Regardless of what they've done previously, I feel like the only real question is this: What is the optimum possible outcome based on the current situation, and what strategy has the best chance of bringing us to that outcome? Like, is "dead Faith" really an optimum outcome? Wouldn't a reformed Faith that does good in the world be a better outcome? Regardless of whether she's "deserved" that chance?
Great episode, great reaction
where does angel get the money to pay cordelia?
She was the one who first suggested that Angel start charging the people for helping them. Though for all I know she might also have some modeling gigs on the side
@@9ansean i wonder if he pays taxes lol
6:04 does angel sound like batman to anyone else here or is just me and he's always like that...
9:22 9:34 SO FUCKING TRUE 😂😂😂Giles just knows everything it’s like he has cameras around the world or something
Or like team Angel called Giles, after Faith showed up out of nowhere and tried to crossbow Angel in back, to ask hey we were just attacked by a coma patient, wtf?
@@charlesbaldwin3166 that literally happened last night and Angel didn’t expect Buffy so clearly that didn’t happen nice try tho
@@charlesbaldwin3166 now let’s say your theory is correct which I doubt Buffy would’ve stated Giles got a call from Wesley or cordy. Westly wouldn’t have called Giles because he trust Angel to take care of it. It’s possible cordy did it but honestly if she called Buffy she wouldn’t have left for her safety makes no sense
@@Alejandro333777 I don't have to theorize I just have go actually remember what happened. If you go back to around the eight minute mark of her reaction to the last episode the show literally cuts from the trio standing around going wait isn't Faith supposed to be in a coma to Angel hanging up the phone from talking to Giles.
@@charlesbaldwin3166 that’s irrelevant just because they ASKED about faith being in a coma doesn’t mean that they told Giles that faith tried to kill him