Walther Factory at the End of WW2 (1945) | Walther PPs, PPKs, P.38s | Pre-1946 Walther Pistols
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- What did the G.I.s see when they rolled up to the Walther factory in Zella-Mehlis in 1945? In this episode, Tom walks us through what the soldiers in the 90th Infantry Division and 11th Armored Division saw and what weapons they took as souvenirs - Walther PPs, PPKs, P.38s and more! They also discovered secret experimental weapons that the Nazis were working on. Fritz Walther, head of the factory, met the US soldiers at the gates of the town and surrendered. Along with the townspeople, the Volksturm also surrendered - an army of the people who Hitler commanded to die for the cause. The US soldiers liberated thousands of slaves working in the factory as well. Tom reads actual letters from those who liberated the town. Watch to hear their stories!
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I became acquainted with a WWII vet in the mid-1970's. He told me he brought back two P-38's. He told me veterans were encouraged to deactivate their war souvenirs. He had both of the barrels welded shut. I didn't appreciate the historical value of the pistols at the time but I still thought the guy did a terrible thing.
he was an idiot.
Excellent Episode....
👍😎🤝
I have a Walther PPK it’s very old still in original box with original paperwork and the cleaning rod for sale.
My dad was in the 11th armored division.. had brought home several pistols from the factory..sold some , kept some..
He had an engraved nickle.qith a ivory grips he assembled himself...matching numbers no proof marks...a black hammer cuz he couldn't find the correct one...
Great history there..
Came to check this channel based on Ian's recommendation from the Forgotten Weapons channel. I really enjoy this channel, I've already watched almost all the videos released so far in less than a week. Thank you for the quality content! I would like a bit more detail and longer videos, I'm sure you could talk more on these subjects based on your years of experience and study, so please share all of that with us if you can.
I was walking past an athletic arena today and I saw a man carrying a long stick. I said are you a pole vaulter and he replied nein I’m a German how did you know my name is Walther.
From my experience in industry they were possibly using up previously out of spec rejected parts for these pistols as standards lowered over time , this happens in manufacturing when companies are heading towards a crisis, they try to get as much out of the door as possible by ignoring quality control because they have no brand name to worry about protecting anymore and no warranties to honour, the last production runs of bankrupt manufactures are often junk quality.
Another great video with some very rare pistols! Keep up the great work.
All weapons in USA And Russia the ideas came from Germany they were way ahead back in 1945
Tom that was a very interesting video. I love these stories. Please keep them coming.
I have one of the Walther PP taken from the factory when it was captured. Mismatched serial numbers and it is in the white as in no finish. I bought it from the Vet who liberated it 🇺🇸
Excellent blend of photos, history and anecdotal information. Please do more like this! Mauser and other arms factories, perhaps?
working on it. Thanks for watching! See how you like this one , ruclips.net/video/nCL_Mbfp284/видео.html
To be clear, civilians do not have to "surrender" as they are non-combatants, speaking as an ex Australian army soldier. Taking of peoples property is theft, plain and simple, even collectable firearms as they are not general military issue.
Paul Denne Right!!!
Mi preferida es la ppk 7,65 . La mía es la No de serie 281317. Es posible saber año de fabricación ? Saludos
What happened to the Walther Family ? immediately after the war, did they get prosecuted for using slave labour.
The were put under house arrest. I believe for about a year. They lost everything they owned in Germany (except perhaps their family home) as the factory was in the Russian sector. Russians took all the equipment and then blew up the factory. But then made a "come base about 4 years later by opening a new factory in Ulm (West Germany sector) I have to conclude they stashed a good bit of money into Swiss banks before the war ended.
@@LegacyCollectibles Wonder where they are now?
love PPKS all WALTHERS. please do the follow-up on this plant.
I have a miss match WWII Walther P-38 AC45 with an FN 140/M1 frame on it. It was very pitted.When I bought it.So years ago.I had a local gun smith. Take all of the pits out of it & re blued. Naturally it did lose all of its value. And for many year's I have carried it. As my legal conceal carry pistol.The very great thing.I found out about it.It will feed any FMJ or Hollow Points.With no problems.And that is saying a hell a lot about it. And I have a matching soft shell black military holster for it. And 4 matching WWII P-38 magazines for it. And I also have a near mint matching numbers. Spreewerk CYQ P-38 And a matching soft shell 44 black military holster for it And 3 matching JVC magazine for it.It is one hell of a gun
The AC45 was almost certainly taken out of the factory by a GI at the end of the war. Nice mini-collection for you !! Thanks for sharing .
THE BIG DESGUSTING-LOOTING IN 20°CENTURY.
snag the hammer and accidentally discharge ?? have you fired a PPK ? they have a a built in safety they makes that impossible.
Finally acknowledging that not only Nazis but also Allied were also looters.
This is a typical Abhramanic physique
My grandpa was in the 90th. Brought home a pp with plastic grips. Wish he would have grabbed a sturmgewehr.
The reason he didn't is probably because when he got it back to the U.S. he'd have had to register it and get the $200 tax stamp. $200 was a lot of money in 1945 about the equivalent of $3000 today. The NFA was passed in 1934 and after that date you needed the $200 tax stamp for any machine gun.
Thank you so much for story. I am a fan of Walther guns. I own Walther PPK with 22LR caliber. I am very delighted this story.
Amazing thank you!,,
Ian sent me too. Your smashing these videos; everybody loves them. We all love the history you preserve. Good or bad it happened. Thank you for your preservation of history. Too many now adays try to erase.
Wonder what the dones were they were making
Hopefully all of this well researched material will be published in book form.
Wow awesome stuff!! Makes me want to buy a P38
Bravo,,,, Great History. Am supposing that all or most the PPs and PPks were 7.65 (32). I'm wondering if any were 9mm kurz and/or how rare were they? Am guessing not many were made during the war..
Correct, all of the guns shown are 7.65. They did make both 22 caliber an 9MM during the war, but 95% or more were only in 7.65. Thanks for watching
I just bought a Walther PP, serial #299XXXP, it has proof marks on slide and barrel, but no where else (like on trigger guard). Any idea when it is from? I haven’t picked it up, but I think it is a Dural frame (best match to the ones for sale on your site to mine).
Well a Dural would be nice. The markings sound correct. I believe it would be 1939. Is it crown N proofs or Eagle N. ? If Eagles then it would be 1940.
Thomas Whiteman thanks for your reply. It is an Eagle N. I don’t have a magazine for it. Trying to find a correct mag for it. Too expensive to buy more than one.
We could get you a 1940 era mag for about $100. It should have a Walther banner and "7.65m/m" on it. Send us an email at info@legacy-collectibles.com and we can send you photos. Thanks!
@yesca jasta Sorry. No baseball cards
Ian sent me. I’m glad he did. Been going through the videos and I’m really liking the history. Great “hidden” channel. I hope it grows.
Thanks for the encouragement Steve. Tell your gun friends ! :) We need all we can get.
I came from FW also and I am loving the channel
Try this one. ruclips.net/video/nCL_Mbfp284/видео.html
To bad the miss match one, you could have people get together and try to match them back up?
I do collect the serial numbers and people who have them. So far, no matches.
You mention....c block. My question is what month would " h" block be? I believe my Walther p38 is a 1944 "h" block. But my question is just that. I don't know what month ..."h" is. Thank you
Just subscribed to your channel and I have to say the video I just watched was very informative. I own a BYF 1943 P-38 and the old girl shoots just as well as my Beretta M9 I Carried before switching to the SIG M17. I know that the Italians copied the P-38 because it’s such an outstanding design. Anyways keep the videos coming. PS... thank you for letting us no about the P-38 forum.
Is WalTHer really pronounced Walder?
No people are being dumb and lazy it is Walther!
I do know that feg co made a clone of the PP. It's the pa63.
Good report. That said... Regardless how you view the typical German soldier or civilian of this time period....it was a bit uncalled for to say members of the Volksturm scattered and "went home to their mommies" (3:50-3:57). Put yourself in those shoes and how would you or most anyone else have reacted if you found yourself in such a situation?..... fight to the bitter end when you see no hope?
Elsewhere ...near 6:06, you speak of a drone or robotic flying machine, whereas the picture you show is the incredible Horton 229... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horten_Ho_229. And....not to be overly picky, but as a gun guy yourself, you should call out the parts correctly, but you call out the the fire-blued "extractor" ( at 11:40-11:47)...as an "ejector".
Lastly...and back to the story, I have often heard of the Americans entering the factory, but what historical record do you have for immediately aftterewards? Reports are that all the actual manufacturing machinery ended up in Russia, and that all the buildings at the Zella-Mehlis facility were levelled..... true? Was hoping to get more on this here.
As someone as anal as you are , I'm surprised you could not remember he stated all the machinery was taken by the Russians and was then the buildings leveled to the ground.
75+ years ago.
I argue the validity to some of yours and Ian's statements. Most might be repeated folklore, not fact. Please state that in some of your commentary. Important to false representation of valuable arms. Good video anyway👍
I have a Walther PP AC marked also. It is actually numbers matching. It had black weighted plastic grips on it, but I took them off so they wouldn't get broke. I enjoy shooting this PP today. It's a great handling firearm from history for sure .
great video!
Not to be a smart alec but do people and and you did it several times you say walder?Why is it so hard to say WALTHER?
I think Ian from Forgotten Weapons did a video almost exactly like this one.
Shouldn't "C' be the designation for March anyone?
volk=people and in swedish volk = folk I am not sure in volk in chinese Norway volk =gutte
I wonder if the US has the Walther records somewhere.
Apparently the machinery for doing the legends was worn out and thats one reason they decided to do away with it later in the war and used a code instead, I have a mint original condition late 1944 PP and the slide legend is quite shallow.
Wrong.....all manufacturers of weapons in WWII Gemany were assigned codes instead of showing brand names...such that if the guns were captured, it would confuse the enemy as to the source and true manufacturing capability that exists in wartime Germany, etc.....
@@TheWilferch Well my Wartime Walther banner PP & PPK, CZ27 , FN Browning 1922 kind of piss on your strawberries there, these are all military issued guns, made during wartime and have the makers names/banners/logos/addresses on the slides.
@@silverfingerthesilverstack5062 ...I stand by my comments. Piss on strawberries?...is that really necessary to make your point? CZ is Czech, FN in Belgian, so I don't know why you bring this up. German gun manufacturers were most assuredly allocated code designations to firstly hide them from possible WW1 treaty violations of production, and certainly during WWII to hide where (which facility) actually made them. Here is one reference, there are dozens others if you look--> www.firearmsales.com.au/germancodes.php. No doubt there were exceptions perhaps....but even 98 Mausers and such were codified. Also very likely that once foreign countries were occupied by Germann forces, they too ( at that time) were assigned codes. The referenced article says this---> "Foreign countries where arms were produced are included in these codes. These included factories taken over during the occupations, particularly those plants of well-established arms manufacturers in Austria, Belgium, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary and Sweden."
@@TheWilferch My wartime PPK & PP have the Walther banner & the address of Zella Mehlis on the slide, one of those is WaA stamped.
great story
That was a Horten brothers twin jet engined flying wing with stealth technology. Presently with the Smithsonian museum.
Great info. Thanks !!
Interesting and well done - Thank you for posting!
Best video yet, fascinating viewing!!
Thanks
Thank you for sharing this. My father was a tanker in the 11th Armored, and told me similar stories of the capture of the Walther works at Zella-Mehlis. He told me how he entered the factory showroom and saw GI's 'confiscating' some richly engraved and gold-plated pistols. He took a couple pistols himself, but gave them away prior to returning to the US (an order came out telling the GI's they could only bring back one pistol on penalty of court martial. However, his bags were never inspected at any point of his return journey). This video brings back some memories of dad and his "war stories". Dad passed away back in 2007 and I still miss him.
Thanks so much for sharing that. It was very meaningful.
Lucky he was in the European theater, my dad was an MP in the Japan occupation force. They arrested many GIs for violations of the souvenir rules, which MacArthur strictly enforced.
My father-in-law came back with the Canadian Army in 1945. They sailed into Halifax and just before docking an announcement went through that the military police and civil Halifax Police were looking for pistols. Anyone with one was going to be charged both military and criminally. He said that the harbour looked like it was raining with all the souvenirs being tossed overboard or out port holes. When they disembarked, not a policeman of any kind to be seen. Those with souvenirs increased the value considerably if they had extra pistols to sell.
Another interesting video! Love the history and unique photos. I would be interested in more! Thanks for doing this.
Is there a book?
I was good friends with a Customs Agent who was investigating Walther after the war as Walther's were being imported into the states as being made in W. Germany, when, in fact they were made in France as you probably know. As I recall the pistols were pp's & ppk's which were even marked by the French "W. Germany", but the pistols were not finished as this was done in W. Germany. This was in violation of our country of origin marking requirements and this would have been in the 1960's or possibly the 1970's. He actually went to Mauhrin and was given a tour of the plant which he said was just across the German border. There would have been a 10% marking duty as well as fines and penalties levied against Walther if he could make the case. One of his superiors told him to drop the case and for the life of me I cannot remember why. I am sure you have heard this before, but the agent was a good friend of mine and I thought it noteworthy to share with you.
Great information. Thanks
The post war Colt Junior was the same gun, made in Spain, as the Astra Cub. Colt imported the gun,( or the parts), put a high quality polish and Colt markings, and called them American made. Lots of foreign guns have been imported for American manufacturers/retailers over the years, and sold as American made. Other items had to be permanently marked "made in...." Oyr laws are screwy.
@@vincentmueller3717 The country of origin markings requirements have not changed in a very long time. I suspect Colt imported the parts and finished them which would make them eligible to be deemed American made as they went through a substansial transformation.
@buckshot4428
Colt was (and still is) famous for its beautiful color case hardening of parts. The Juniors had the trigger and safety finished in straw colors, a Spanish process and not a Colt process used at the time on anything else.
"Major or significant change" is subjective, depending on the size of the companys and envelopes involved.
@@vincentmueller3717 Many things are subjective. That is one reason there are so many attorney's.
This guy keeps talking about pee pees
I was always fascinated by this story, first read about it in Ezel's Handguns of the World.
Maybe you can get a chance to explore more factories..Mauser...or even like the Beretta when Germany occupied! Thank you...keep up the great work!!
I actually owned a P-38 that was dated c 45, so it was a April of 45. Another I had was a mismatched b45, which I was told was put together for the GI's.
I saw a Walter PP at the Gettysburg gun show exactly like the AC one in the video it was not matching and had no proof marks...
the guy wanted $500 I scoffed but now I regret my decision.These Walters are part of its history.
A family member just recently sold a 380 for 40 g that came out of the factory in 45. Never saw it but we have a 22lr ppk that came out the same day.
He done the right thing by his people nothing wrong with that. Look at all those hypocrites that were die hardy then took up residence in the USA and Russia
Looting...uhh umm...liberating the Walther factory as an officer with an empty duffle bag and part of the first group of soldiers to get there. Now that is the stuff dreams are made of. 😇
I think the P38 is as iconic as the MP40. Beautiful works of art, in my opinion.
I bet the GIs were like kids in a candy shop.
On time. On target. What's not to love?
🍸
Agreed. I love the PPQ.
so the US took all theGuns togheter whit all the gold.
thomas kristensen : I guess the Nazis aren’t the only looters in history...
thomas kristensen yup they stole a lot
The Second World War at least the European campaign wasn’t about the narrative we’ve been told it...
The allies always so proud of defeat the Germans, but like a good friend of mine used to say:
The time will come, when the allies realized that they fought the wrong enemy.
Enjoy being slave from Soros and co
We should win this war not you
You should, but you didn't. And you never will!
fursan, nice to know we have a terrorist in VA.
Great channel...
Restrictive Theory of Sovereign Immunity according to which the Public Acts (Jure Imperii) of a Foreign State are entitled to immunity, while the Private Acts (Jure Gestionis) are not. Means items taken like described here by soldiers are recoverable, as this was retroactively codified by the FSIA and Supreme Court decision. Likely low values items no one would bother with. However, items of family or cultural heritage significance would be subject to recovery by the original owner's descendants, in U.S. District Court. High value items are most likely collectable and collectors should be aware of this. Further both Japan and the European Countries have programs to recover looted items, usually of cultural or family significance. Less was lost in the occupation of Japan due to strict rules under MacArthur and also the formal issue of souvenirs from captured military hardware such as rifles or low value swords. All high value swords of Japanese origin are considered stolen cultural items. But under various recovery treaties prosecution or suit for damages is usually avoided by return of the item though proper channels. FSIA law passed in 1976, Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act (FSIA), has many exceptions to immunity of states as to suits, but individuals are open season game.
It has been retroactively applied under common law settled opinion of US Supreme Ct. see, 2004, the Supreme Court held in Republic of Austria v. Altmann, 541 U.S. 677 (2004) that the FSIA applies retroactively. That case involved a claim by the descendants [U.S. Citizens living in the United States] of owners of famous paintings against the Austrian government for return of those paintings, which were allegedly seized during the Nazi era. As a consequence of Altmann, for lawsuits filed after the enactment of the FSIA (1976), FSIA standards of immunity and its exceptions apply, even where the conduct that took place prior to enactment of the FSIA. This not only works against foreign states, but also works against U.S. citizens holding items looted from foreign countries, as they can be sued in Federal Court or in some cases foreign courts were treaty holds or recognized foreign equivalents of FSIA. Something to think of in collecting particularly high value war souvenirs... they are stolen booty even if paid for with some token payment.
Great commentary.
@@thomaswhiteman4261 Thanks, I should note also the Strumgewehr 44 (machine guns under U.S. Law) shown in the video clips were and are illegal in the United States due to Gun Control Act 1934 without proper ATF Stamp documentation, ($200.00 transfer/registration fee). Technically as those were not exempted from the total ban on weapons fully automatic capable manufactured after 1934, as they were manufactured after codification of the act in 1934, they could not be legally owned for any reason under the Act... but for the fact ATF has regulated and published determinations allowing transfer/registration.
But we should all be aware, such release or allowance to be registered and transferred, was due to agency administrative actions, determinations or regulations, and are subject to the whim of the ATF, under the Attorney General (meaning a nameless faceless bureaucrat fiat) or Presidential fiat. And, these like bump-stocks could simply have the law enforced, and the administrative decisions simply evaporate. This was codified in Administrative Procedures Act 1948 under President Truman. Such administrative acts can only be fought by administrative appeal proceedings within 30 days of enactment or first notifications of the administrative action. Such administrative acts or determinations cannot be taken directly to District court (Federal) as the court does not have jurisdiction, and will dismiss immediately these suits on application, as to the original subject matter and may even rule it to be final with prejudice meaning you cannot take the action back to the proper jurisdiction, because you screwed up and took it to the wrong jurisdiction... its dead. But only in an appeal of an unfavorable administrative appeal decision based on constitutional grounds can that determination be taken to Federal District Court. Very hard and rare thing to do. So owning or holding such automatic weapons, or now 'destructive devices', see National Firearms Act 1986, as even in dealers holding unsold stock, are subject to whim or fiat of nameless faceless bureaucrats or elected/appointed officials who's disposition could change, at anytime.
I gave up collecting military weapons long ago once I realized the risks. I suppose in my remaining lifetime I might see our constitutional rights as to the 2nd Amendment totally taken away.
I might mention the newly minted Walther PPK / PPKS made in the USA by Walther's new factory at Ft. Smith Arkansas, are really the best ever made in precision. But don't have the hand touches in finish of the old ones. Even the war slave labor produced ones have a certain handmade utilitarian beauty. See one gets to see really the beauty of proper as machined finishes fit and finish rather than the polished over gloss. The new ones have that same aspect but CNC and modern tooling allow impressive levels of final finish without the hand labor. The new trigger pulls, and internal part finishes, which are all machined, put old guns to shame by in large (does not apply to the 22 cal versions zinc cast toy aspect. However, strangely the new pistols cannot be imported to France where most of Walther piece part work was done for so long, though you can own an old one made by Interarms or older. I have not check with German laws but I bet knowing the Euro-zone the new Walther PP series is illegal to own there too!
I will make one further observation. Today by in large I see in Germany the new flourishing of National Socialism under and more benign cover of general socialism and the German Peoples slavish devotion to it. Perhaps Germany lost the war, but in Eurozone they rule with a pretty hard gloved hand. And, it is only a matter of degree and ugly pants suits substituting for military garb that it has been turned into sort of a sissified _ism socialist capitalistic State ruling Europe.