Thanks for watching! If you like what I do, consider pledging on Patreon: patreon.com/dorked. If you are a Kingdom Hearts fan, please consider checking out my recent Yen Sid video, which is underperforming: ruclips.net/video/RPRx9SojFSE/видео.html I recently put out a video on common misconceptions w/ UT's timeline: ruclips.net/video/MC5y8-cDECw/видео.html And a music vid for Checkmate from the IF soundtrack: ruclips.net/video/N-h6gIJBgOw/видео.html You can read Inverted Fate at invertedfate.com/chapters (Note: the most recent two chapters haven't been added yet due to our webhost being busy). My Ko-Fi: My Ko-Fi: ko-fi.com/invertedfate Fandom Mandela Effect Playlist: ruclips.net/video/FaRKk4DrjUo/видео.html Other Undertale/Deltarune Analysis: ruclips.net/video/KueHgAZcV00/видео.html ruclips.net/video/4VfHhBh1c8c/видео.html Kingdom Hearts Analysis Playlist: ruclips.net/video/Ruy5aYUijGE/видео.html Undertale Q&A Blog: undertaleqa.tumblr.com/ Undertale Alarm Clock: undertale.com/alarmclock/
THANK you for pointing out that Toriel's argument against him makes no sense. As far as canon lore goes, neither of them know why Chara and Asriel crossed the barrier or what they did when they got to the village of the humans (although the monsters in new home seem to know a rough approximation of the truth). Asgore just knows that a village full of humans went up against the only monster to ever absorb a human SOUL, and the monster lost. Given that hypergoner asriel couldn't even destroy one particularly determined human child, it would be ridiculous to try to wage a war with one or even a few human souls under your belt. You might as well try to escape the underground doing the minimum utilitarian harm possible, and negotiate for peace.
Thats probably the loudest ive laughed in a deltarune gameplay, the way he just barge in, the way he shouts it out, the way toriel essentially just “?” Is hilarious to me
Everyone forgets that the famous ''Sans'' qutote ''It’s a beautiful day outside. Birds are singing, flowers are blooming'' is from Asgore, since he says it in the neutral rute, the one players always play first.
Yes, it's a play on Asgore's line, since you heard it before whilst fighting Asgore, Sans says the beginning but then changes the end. In my opinion I think it's really cool because it makes you understand that the actual final fight isn't Asgore but Sans.
I think Asgore having the least amount of screentime out of the main cast might've also contributed to how unpopular he is in the fandom. If we got to hang out with him in the true pacifist route like we did with Papyrus, Undyne, Alphys, Sans, then maybe he would've been a bit more popular, but who knows.
Oh, screentime is probably a huge factor. I've also noticed people tend to forget things like how imposing and threatening Undyne was before she took the helmet off and focus more on her funny and friendly traits later, so i think it's also a case of certain aspects being forgotten/sidelined, too.
It could fit in the True Pacifist like, instead of him just going to the Barrier you can convice him to dri k some Tea and etc. Maybe even talk about Toriel and whatnot. Would be nice
This kinda reminds me of Magus from Chrono Trigger and how he's rarely ever praised as much as the other characters due to his one and done nature. In fact, he doesn't even appear in the sequel. This is despite having the deepest backstory, (arguably) the best theme, unique gameplay mechanics, and is part of one of the most impactful player decisions in game. I can see why he's underrated though: His backstory needs to be pieced together, his villainy is simply boiled down to "Surprise! Here's the real villain, it's not Magus!" his recruitment/defeat are both optional side quests, and after his main story beats he has no more bearing on the plot but instead is characterized by his backstory and the two cents he gives throughout the rest of the playthrough.
The actual biggest mischaracterisation the fandom made about Asgore is giving him a posh voice, he's obviously got a country/western accent. Dude says howdy, listens to country music, like come on. Let him be a silly country man.
i think a western accent would be a little bit hard to pull off with his personality. western accents are usually more intense sounding but hes a really gentle guy.
Imagine disliking a character for having a moral conflict. Thats how we are as people to begin with, and we learn and grow seeing where that turmoil takes people
People: *hate Asgore for being 'evil'* Also people: *hyping AUs and ATs where Sans is increasingly more hateful and murderous* At this point, I gave up understanding people. 😂
@@Sekaidestroyer the obscene fascination with Sans like that is one I will never understand. Sans is more wary and warning (albeit quite harshly at times) than CONSISTENTLY intent and murderous. The sympathy angle you point out though is one I definitely dont get. Maybe its because Asgore technically has less screen time and is pitted as "responsible" for everything in a sense, but come on
Because most of the stupid people in the fan base who are vile and awful people are also that way in other fandoms and they just want to have something to abuse
Undertale fans when a character does bad things because they've become morally compromised and feel it's their best option out of a bad hand: 😡🤬😡🤬 Undertale fans when sociopathic genocidal murderer: omg they're such a skrunly skrimblo 🥰🥰🥰
I’m going to be honest, Asgore barging into Sans’s Shop and saying “don’t forget me, your eggs-husband” is genuinely one of the funniest things I’ve ever seen, and definitely the best egg pun I’ve ever heard
@@mintsmooth860 Not quite. That was where Chara fell in the first place. They later moved to New Home. During the "Undertale" part it's said that Asriel died in their garden.
Tbh, I've always liked Asgore way WAY more than Toriel, mainly because he never hides in the "I'm hurting you so I can protect you" thing (I hate that trope because of personal reasons), he straight up is like "I really REALLY don't want to do this, but it is something I have to do to make my people free again" and he even makes it clear that, if the circumstances had been a little different, he would've gladly accepted you as his child, and the fact that he's one of the few characters that doesn't look to you when fighting, really sells that he's a product of a worst case scenario but even then, he's still as kind and well meaning as ever
Gets better, gents. Toriel made it clear: 'you didn't need 7 souls. You needed one and you could get the others on the surface.' That meaning: 'As long as you don't disrupt my chance to replace my dead children with these fallen humans, you can kill humans on the surface if you want' Because it never been about violence for her. She used him as a Scapegoat (pun intended lol) for her frustration. That's why I love reading comics where they give him to chance to throw that back on her face. Lol
The whole thing about fans or fanart of asgore always being followed by "haha divorce" or "haha dead kids" is very similar to berdly's situation, where any fan/fanart always has atleast one person going "haha snowgrave", as a way to shoot down any appreciation of the character, by also pushing any negative traits under the sun onto him aswell.
People actually hate asgore??? Holy shit, I’ve only love asgore more since i recently got back into undertale. Him smiling if you choose to kill him at the end of his fight? That could make me cry on the right day
When i see asgore I see the perfect mix of a king and a father He acts like both In a perfect balance But, he is sweet no matter what role he is acting in For me, it's impossible to hate him Because I actually understand why he did what he did He had no other choice after saying that he would kill any humans that fell into the underground He said that in a moment of rage, but there was no turning back, it was 7 random humans Or the happiness and freedom of the monster kind The "why he didnt raise them or let them live until the moment they died naturally if they werent aggressive" Welp, i believe snowdin acts as that There frisk was safe, nothing actually made them continue, it was their choice If humans wanted to live peacefully, they just had to stay in snowdin, sans, the judge, is the highest rank after the king And i dont think he let frisk live JUST because a promise The promise might be the biggest part of it But even without it i dont think he would have attacked any human that was innocent (one that didnt kill any monster) But i dunno, maybe im just saying nonsense
@@EggyEggtoast i dont think toby really hates a character he made, i think toby just has a lot of plans for asgore in DR so we can see asgore's growth and development in future chapters
As a kid, him bidding the player a gentle farewell and speaking of how it was nice to meet them really left a mark on me. For many reasons I like him a lot, but that was a very very impressive one. I also believe that the fandom just wants someone to hate on honestly, and Asgore is an easy target. For many MANY theorized reasons. Ranging from just his normal flaws to him being an older male figure that could represent a disliked older generstion for certain fans. In general the asgore hate is extremely unfair and media illiterate. This game expects you to forgive Asriel and Flowey, but think its too high of an ask to forgive Asgore. What a joke.
@@agent3689tbf the Undertale fandom in the first few years was freaking wild and filled with teenagers with a very manichean wiew as they dont know better, tbf it hasnt changed to much nowadays but the lesser amount of people around makes the remainer far more about the compassion than the edgy genocide
when is it ever implied that you can't forgive asgore in-game, just because toriel doesn't doesn't mean toby thinks you shouldn't either, even if he isn't in merch, but that's not a game thing
The game itself has no bearing on forgiving Asgore. In fact, it does give you the choice to spare his life and even become his child. (although Flowey pops him before he can make it official). The main joke the game (and its sequel) pulls is in regards to him and Toriel, and it definitely doesn’t exclude Asgore from the same forgiveness as Flowey in the neutral run
Growing up and maturing is realizing to forgive everyone in Undertale while still acknowledging their flaws or crimes committed(which includes your own and not just singling out Asgore or heck, blaming Chara for the things you did in your route).
I think my favorite piece of fanon regarding the discourse around Asgore is the Growth Spurt AU. It has Toriel hating Asgore like her canon counterpart, and eventually Asriel's like "If you hate him then you should hate me too". Obviously Toriel didn't know until Asriel said it, and also she's a character within the story instead of an IRL fan, but it makes the artist's position on this discourse clear. If you dislike Asgore for killing kids while in a difficult situation, it's inconsistent to like Asriel despite him wiping out the Underground multiple times for fun. On the other hand, if you forgive Asriel for his actions, it's inconsistent to not also forgive Asgore for his actions.
@@axl256gamesx7 I'm sure their argument would be "but they're fictional characters but to Asgore they're just as real as he is!" Okay stop harassing people over a fictional character then.
I'm guessing the counterpoint for Asriel is that while he DID wipe out the monsters multiple times for fun, he ultimately reset over it and brought them all back, so it may as well have never happened. Or something along those lines, at any rate. :/c
@@F1areon ... true, but in the same Growthspurt episode Asriel makes it clear that he committed a "monster Genocide" multiple times, & that after Frisk arrived in the Underground Asriel literally lost count of how many times he ended up killing them-- Asriel: I must have killed Frisk *a thousand times*!! Frisk: And that's with some serious rounding down. Toriel: [horrified silence]
@@zenkim6709 Yes, but bc of the save point/resetting power, everybody came back; from the POV of basically every other monster, those genocides never even happened in the first place. Asriel and Frisk would be the only ones who ever remembered such things happening.
The thing that really gets to me about Asgore’s characterization is that, I guess as I always saw it, he’s never going to hurt anyone who isn’t willing to hurt him. He always makes sure that you’re ready to fight him knowing it’s either you or him, and that’s something I believe he applies to each human he’s forced to fight. He knows what he has to do to free his people, but he has the respect for each human he meets to give them the choice of staying below the Earth for the rest of their lives to have their souls taken through natural means, or die in trying to take Asgore’s soul and leave. It makes Toriel’s suggestions to him feel pretty gross imo (not giving her hate I just don’t appreciate how she treats him and manhandles the conversation around him), cus Asgore, to me, always followed a moral code that I can’t help but respect. Definitely a character I really like.
Copying my comment but... THIS! You can literally refuse to fight until the very last moment, sacrificing your freedom but saving your life. But no, all the people WANTED to go to the surface, because that was their home (as if it wasn't also a home for monsters) and went there, knowing that they would either become killers or die.
No other boss monster see you and decide to fight but asks if you have anything else to do, the only one who does is his student Undyne. Undyne doesn’t keep her composure the way he does, she probably doesn’t even do that out of compassion but out of habit of her training with Asgore. Undyne wants to beat you as your peak, asgore wants you to make sure you’re ready to die.
but also, as another commenter pointed out, all of the 6 children that fell in the underground were taken care by Toriel and a lot of them may have spent years living with her before getting killed by Asgore, if you were in Toriel's shoes, it's extremely unlikely you would forgive him for that.
I attribute this more to Asgore being cowardly, than merciful. He wants to literally kill all of humanity. I believe this is the case because he readily sics the royal guard with orders to kill the humans they encounter, without mercy. He doesn't want to start the fight but still wants the humans dead.
@@Colon-D... he doesn't want the humans dead. he never stated that he wanted to kill all of humanity. he declared war on humans in the heat of the moment, when he was angry over his children's deaths, but by the time frisk reaches him he regrets his choice, to the point where he doesn't just use one human soul to go to the surface, get the remaining 6 souls, and free all the monsters, because he's just hoping he won't have to kill anymore humans. in the end of the true pacifist run, he says nothing about wanting to kill all of humanity.
It’s really unfortunate how so much of the fandom hyperfocuses on the flaws of certain characters like Asgore, while completely ignoring the flaws of more popular characters like Undyne or Sans. Like, Asgore feels extremely guilty about having tasked himself with killing the humans, (and refuses to accept mercy, and will even give you his soul to let you escape), but Undyne feels nearly no remorse whatsoever when trying to kill you (unless you annoy her by not dodging) no matter how innocent you are. On the other hand, Sans doesn’t care nor confront you on your potential crimes throughout the neutral stories unless you kill Toriel or Papyrus, despite having the power to do so. I’m not saying that Undyne and Sans are bad characters tho, it’s just annoying how many people cherrypick attributes from some characters to create their own limited narratives. Asgore may have not been morally correct to do what he did, but he did have his entire people looking up to him to save them, and was forced between keeping the countless monsters imprisoned and taking the souls of the 6 fallen humans. He had to choose between 2 extremely awful options, and in the end (of some neutral routes), he wasn’t able to commit to saving the monsters, making his uncomfortable decisions unfortunately not have their desired impact
bro could even apply this shit to "uwu widdle pure soft goat child" who probably killed way more people compared to his father over and over just because he was bored and yet people want to hug him without hesitation
@ImJUSTGR8 Haven't really thought about that before, but holy shit you're right! People are so willing to forgive Asriel or try to lampshade it by saying that he's just a kid, but there really is no arguing that he didn't know what he was doing for a long time. Asgore never laughed at or mocked his victims. In contrast, Flowie delighted in torturing people.
Undyne's my favourite character and I must say you are absolutely correct. I don't understand why they erase her flaws (or the skelebros), it's what makes her a more multidimensional character. Can we acknowledge that you can be a good character and flawed instead of just ignoring those flaws?
"ultimately, sans knows it is futile to stop the human from killing in the neutral route. however, the knowledge he has about a permanent end to his world motivates him to stop the human in the genocide route - in a last ditched effort to save the ones he loves."
Note that in the begining, Asgore and Dreemur are introduced as 2 different and totaly opposite characters, Asgore is told to be an absolute monster by Toriel, and Dreemur is told to be a sweetheart and kind king. That's why when Undyne first speaks about Asgore Dreemur, it's written in both red and yellow. That quote reveals that the insane murderer that Toriel warned us about and the sweet king everyone else loves are the exact same person. That reveal is so overlooked even tho it's an important part of Asgore's character.
I never realised how much Asgore was hated on until semi recently. Him not being in official art is also very upsetting. Thank you for this analysis and really bringing to light his character and how much of a nuanced character he really is
@@theStridingRebelit's been 8 years since undertale released and he doesn't even appear in recent newsletters or merch, and (almost) everyone in the fandom knows who he is
@@theStridingRebelI thought about that being the reason, but tbh I feel like everyone knows his appearance even if you haven’t played the game yet and only seen clips or art. I’m starting to wonder if he just doesn’t have a plush or appear much in newsletters because he’s unpopular due to being hated for his crimes.
Something you didn't really touch on that I really love about Asgore is how the game goes out of its way to lead you to believe that "Asgore" and "King Dreemurr" are two separate characters, with most characters referring to him either by his first name or by his surname and/or title. Undyne is the one who reveals that they're one and the same, which makes her use of both red and yellow text especially important, it further emphasizes the conflicting information we've heard about this character, who we were led to believe was two different people. In the neutral route, we then don't really get any more information until the new home story: The Alphys stuff is neat, but it doesn't really tell us anything new about Asgore. While the most logical way to reconcile the conflicting sides of Asgore that we've learned of prior to new home is to assume Asgore is just racist, the new home sequence tells us that this isn't the case, and instead suggests that he's motivated by revenge. But this is immediately disproven when we meet Asgore and he's straight up *horrified* when he realizes that the last human he needs to free his people has arrived. His physical resemblance to Toriel is also quite important here, since by this point we associate people who look like Toriel with kind, parenty people. There's all the stuff you already mentioned about his fight and how he tries to put it off, but another thing to note is that his attacks get faster as the fight progresses, further showing his desperation to get this over with. I also think it's important to talk about Toriel, since, let's be real, she's definitely contributed to these sorts of "one-dimensional child killer" takes on Asgore, in particular with her bringing up the idea of Asgore taking one soul and using that to free monsters. She's objectively being hypocritical, since she admits herself that she would not have gone through with her own suggestion. She's just using this suggestion to justify calling Asgore a coward, and yet *she's completely right:* Asgore is a coward. He's a people pleaser at heart, and is consistently described as a pushover. Asgore struggles to put his foot down even at the expense of his own mental health, and that willingness to sacrifice his own wants and needs to make others happy is a key part of his character. It's also worth mentioning that while Toriel's dislike for Asgore does ignore the tough moral choice that they were both faced with, it is very much justified, at least in Undertale. It's worth remembering that these weren't just six random kids Asgore killed. Toriel cared for each and every one of them, and based on her collection of kids shoes in various sizes, some of them likely lived with Toriel for months or even years, long enough for them to outgrow the shoes they fell down with and need new ones. It's quite likely that she was just as close with some of these kids as she was with Chara. The kids killed by Asgore were *Toriel's own children,* kids she loved just as much as she and Asgore loved Asriel and Chara. That's why she's so upset with him, why she's unwilling to consider the possibility of ever being friends with him again. She has a very good reason to hate him, and every right to. She doesn't owe him forgiveness , and in her shoes, I doubt there is a single person on the planet who would, and yet in spite of all that, by the events of the credits, she's already gone from outright hate to what Toby describes as "begrudged pity". Asgore, in turn, doesn't push for things to go back to how they were before like in Deltarune, he fully understands that what he's done is unforgivable, especially to Toriel, and gives her space. He acknowledges that their relationship is unlikely to improve beyond "begrudged pity" with their interactions being mostly restricted to spending time with mutual friends, and yet he's happy with that. Toriel and Asgore are two sides of the same morally complex coin, two deeply depressed individuals dealing with grief, anger, and tough moral decisions in very different and yet similar, and very much unhealthy ways.
Yeah, I wish I had thought to comment on that distinction in the video- I noticed it after I had finished it and by then it was too late to edit it in and still make the release window I was shooting for.
True, though I feel Toriel isn't completely faultless either. When Asgore declared war on humanity after Asriel died, Toriel, instead of grieving with Asgore, or trying to make sense of what happened together, she left. It was as if she directed all the anger and resentment she felt towards the humans for killing her son at Asgore instead. He lost his two kids, his wife and the hope of his people all at once. The guy essentially lost everything. Not to mention that Toriel did absolutely nothing to stop Asgore from redeclaring war. She could have done anything to stop him. ANYTHING. Yet she didn't. If the Asgore ingame is anything to go by, then I am sure that Toriel could have convinced him to stand down after the initial shock had passed. Additionally, in her quest to protect the humans who fall into the underground from Asgore, she didn't save a single one. All of her efforts amounted essentially nothing. And despite her failure to keep the all 6 previous humans in the ruins, and in turn, ensuring they'd be killed, she doesn't seem to change or reflect on those failures. If Frisk was a normal, non-reality bending child, they would have died the same way the previous six did, with Toriel continuing on, likely to repeat the same mistakes if there was an eighth to fall. It's not to say I don't like Toriel, far from it, nice goat mom is nice, but she most certainly has her flaws, along with everyone else.
@@ShadowSaberBaroxio While I dont support Asgore x Sans and never really see it happening, the idea of Asgore c*ckblocking Toriel and getting with Sans despite the history Toriel and Sans have is hilarious.
GOD, Asgore doing Chara's weird "efficient" cup-filling quirk in remembrance of them legitimately makes me want to break down and cry. It's just too heartwarming and too cute and too sad all at the same time.
It is really painful to see characters like Asgore and Chara get demonized for their flaws by the fandom, only for that very same fandom to turn around and uphold Toriel and Asriel as the peak of morality. While Chara is especially near and dear to my heart, I love all of the Dreemurrs, and to see them reduced to caricatures of themselves is incredibly frustrating. It really goes to show that fandom is where nuance goes to die.
The worst part is that Toriel is an extremely immoral character. She imprisons people to fill out the void that the loss of her child caused her and unlike Asgore she didn't have any problem with killing children to free monsters. She just didn't like that Asgore killed the children she wanted to have replacing her dead ones.
The worst thing about Chara's perception by people is how the game makes the Chara-Flowey parallel pretty clear. Both are soulless beings that aren't capable of "love" without a soul. Yet Flowey gets excused and treated as a separate character from Asriel, while Chara doesn't get the same treatment. Pretty hypocritical imo.
I saw a person on Reddit say they were an Asgore fan and had a Tumblr blog where they expressed it and someone accused them of, I kid you not, being a child murderer Not a sympathizer or apologist, a perpetrator Also accused them of doing *other* things to children if you catch my drift (bad things that have absolutely nothing to do with Asgore)
Given how Deltarune Asgore acts, my hc is that he and Toriel are on a "separation" stage, not yet divorced. When they meet at the grocery store Toriel mentions that they need to discuss something when Asriel comes home, which might be the divorce. It doesn't excuse Asgore's actions but it at least explains why he's so convinced that things will work themselves out.
I also think that because they are both boss monsters with extremely long life spans, that have been through so much together, Asgore just assumes they are meant to be together. He seems like he puts too much value in fate and prophecies, rather than personal choices.
I should specify this is Deltarune Asgore I'm talking about here. Undertale Asgore is another, more complicated matter. Toriel's still a hypocrite and a traitor and the blood of the humans is on her hands and her point about taking a soul is still null and void , however. Both as an actual plan and as a rethorical device.
@@lolaurabc In deltrune, I don’t think boss monster exist. I don’t think even magic exist outside the dark world, so taking stuff frome undertale and putting it into deltrune is not always a great idea.
Good video, but i can't believe that you didn't talk about the seperation between “King/Mr. Dreemurr“, the nice fuzzy pushover, and “Asgore“, the one, who will take your soul. Toby clearly chose to distinguish those characters before he revealed that they're the same person through Undyne.
I dont exactly have the talent to do it, but honestly I would love to read a comic where frisk actually stayed with asgore. Have it start with his speech before he ends himself, but frisk gets in the way to stop him. Probably he would apologize again for the idea of putting a child through that, and the comic from there could show what he does as a king when he's out and about, but also the sort of stagnation he has at his new-ish home. Like- I can picture a scene where he's at his desk writing about some hopeful idea of having someone around again, but he keeps scratching out parts because he's trying not to delude himself while still being cheery.
13:50, my biggest criticism of "just let the humans live out their lives" idea is that Frisk is like ten or so. And with a healthy lifestyle, they could live to be nearly a hundred. That means that Alphys, Undyne, Sans, Papyrus, Monster Kid, the Nice-Cream guy, and everyone else we met in the game would have died without seeing the sun. Again, this does not excuse Asgore's actions, but it highlights what I feel is the ultimate reality: in a line-up of bad choices, he made the least bad one.
The least "bad" one, following this messy moral you're arguing where character I like >>> innocent children, would have been carrying out the plan fully instead of waiting for humans to fall to the underground. The actually least bad one would have been waiting for the children to die of old age. It doesn't matter if the monsters that live right now in the underground don't get to see the sun, future generations will, and even then their joy isn't more important nor valuable than children's lives.
@motivated2473 LOL 😂 I’d like to see you say that if any of the Monsters you just mentioned were your closest friends. We’ve got a real Hater here folks!! 🤣🤣🤣
@@alirezaomrani7650 wdym If monsters have any morality, then child killing, for whatever reason, would leave a bad taste in their mouth. Considering monsters are made of compassion (which i personally think is monster propaganda), why would they be okay with living on the surface at the cost of innocent children. Asgore could easily have used the first human soul to go to the surface and have brought back the souls needed, which meant many monsters who died during the time he was collecting souls could have seen the surface. But he didn’t. What he did was corwardice and inexcuseable. I still love him as a character and think he deserves a secound chance, but that doesn’t negate that he could have done better, even if he was put in a horrible position. You can love a character and still be critical of them. For example goat mom isn’t exactly innocent either, she could have stuck around to keep trying to convince him otherwise. She could have spoken out as the queen, voiced her distaste. She’s kind of a judgy dick. Asgore DID have to kill at least 1 fallen human to go to the surface and bring back souls of people who might be a little bit more deserving of death. Its a complicated matter, Asgore is baby but he also comitted atrocities.
@@tikimillie >Asgore could easily have used the first human soul to go to the surface and have brought back the souls needed And how exactly he would collect this souls lol. Asking nicely?
That was something that Toriel brought up in true pacifist. And Asgore seemed to agree with it to some extent. I think he could've gotten 6 souls if he tried because with one human soul he'd likely be stronger than most humans but idk @@CojaGamez
Asgore was put in a difficult position, Toriel leaving him to deal with the aftermath didn't help matters either. You could say it was cowardly of him to keep up the charade instead of telling people the truth, but didn't the game say that hopelessness can cause a monster to fall down? The people needed ressurance. And it's important to remember that Asgore gave up on the idea of going to the surface, he and Gerson agreed the humans would just kill them. But he's too afraid to tell his kingdom, so what does Asgore do? Take the longest road possible, wait in hopes that the sixth humans never appears, and if they do appear, that they kill him. It's selfish, but the only outcome where monsterkind survives.
THANK YOU! I hate how the fandom tends to overlook/demonize Asgore yet they love Toriel, despite the horrible sh*t that Toriel has done, which she never took accountability for and the fact that Asgore basically had no choice in his actions. Not to mention, people forget that Asgore lost his kids alongside Toriel.
@@brolytriplethreat I know, and I understand that both f*cked up, but Asgore at least had the decency to take responsibility for what he did, not to mention he had no choice. Toriel, on the other hand, never takes accountability for her terrible actions.
I'd imagine Asgore has the "Tom Nook issue". He's disliked for his role, but he himself isn't bad. At worst, both of them are complex, and at best they are nice. However, because of their role (Asgore collecting 7 souls / Tom Nook wanting you to pay back his loan), they are seen as evil. With Asgore, monsters can't live on the surface without 7 human souls to break the barrier. With Tom Nook, loans have nasty things like interest and penalties for not paying which he simply does not do. There's also the factor that the fans are immature, so they don't think about the complexities of the character. People like Flowey get more love because of the "Crazy Redd thing". They are MEANT to be hated and hurt the player, but the player sees this as a fun challenge or charming. The Joker could kill their parents, and it will make people love the Joker all the more.
TBF in Nook's case, much of the "hate" around him is very much just players making exaggerated jokes. If there truly ARE players who call him evil and bad, it's a tiny minority.
Asgore is actually a very complex and flaws character, but unfortunately many only notice the latter. I'm glad someone (you) made an analysis about his character. (Also, I liked how Asgore was characterized in IF)
Yeah! Lots of undertale characters have flaws such as Alphys (which is probably the second or third most misunderstood UT character)…Undyne..and even Toriel and Sans. It’s a shame that people only choose to pay attention to the fanon aspects of the characters rather than canon and or actually play the game for the full experience. However thankfully the UT fandom has gotten a lot better than 2016 and doesn’t focus on the fanon aspects AS much anymore, most likely due to the fandom realizing just how toxic everything was and I’m glad it isn’t as bad as before, possibly thanks to Deltarune releasing as well.
@RylishZaliou12 I get death of the author but the fact people make up a cannon and ignore what's been blatantly put into story makes newcomers develop a false impression and interpretation.
If you kill Flowey in a neutral run, and redo the Asgore fight, or a whole new neutral run, Asgore ends his own life when he's spared. Yes, you have to kill Flowey after Omega Flowey.
I absolutely love the subtle bit of characterization in that every character who is close friends with Asgore tends to inherit aspects of his speech patterns. Even Sans uses one of his lines, the infamous beautiful day line
It really is a shame that many leave this guy in the dust. They won’t forgive him for what he’s done. However let’s forgive every other monster that tried to kill the player and ESPECIALLY the goat women who left both her people and the player to die.
yeah some of my favourite undertale stories involving these 2 are ones where toriel actually realises "wow i did leave my grieving husband at his most vulnerable point to go hide as far away as possible huh?" and they actually make up, not get back together obviously but no longer hate each other
25:58 I've tuned out most of the discourse in the UT community, cause it's really not that surprising that a popular game has a few bad apples, but this section did actually kinda catch me off guard; if I was strapped to a chair and forced to watch this kind of misinterpretation I'd crap my pants instantly (/j) Been really enjoying these analysis videos, there's just so much about Undertale's world to remember, and these videos are great ways to review the game! About time that Asgore gets some respect, he didn't collab with Kanye West just to become a literal scapegoat
GOD. That meme with Asgore's theme sure is something. Sucks that Kanye is such an awful person. x_x But yeah, I saw a lot of the discourse because several of my friends were wrapped up in it. Not naming names, but there was a very vocal part of the UT fan community back then that was just really, really vitriolic about certain characters and... yeah. Not fun. I believe the main person spearheading it all eventually stopped actively engaging in discourse, at least, but a lot of bad takes were made.
I personally really like Asgore... I remember watching a playthrough of Undertale for the first time, and being extremely curious about him from all the buildup, and when the time came to meet him, he instantly became one of my favourite characters. Yeah, he's a very complex and flawed character... honestly, that's what I really like about him. He's a tragic character, and he had to do things he himself didn't want to do to free his people. And, as Flowey/Asriel is my absolute favourite Undertale character, it genuinely makes me sad that both him and Asgore just often get boiled down to only one part of their character, while the other parts are getting ignored. Both of them are really complex and ever since I became a fan of Undertale I started analyzing the lore about them, and the Dreemurr family as a whole, discovering a lot of things about them in the process. And you always manage to show all that in your videos. You look at all the parts of the characters and their story, and that's why I enjoy these videos so much. And yes we need an Asgore plush. If Fangamer ever releases it I will buy it right away
I don't know how to say this in a way that doesn't acknowledge Toriel's agency in deciding she can't push past the betrayal of her loved one killing her children, but... I really do think he's persecuted unfairly for his actions. There's an understanding that could be reached in that they were both facing horrific grief, and responded to it in different ways. It tears me up that throughout being mounted the kingdom's expectations of Asgore, and the passage of what may have been thousands of years, Toriel seemingly does not try to meet him halfway.
This is why I don't really like Toriel all that much. Her biggest flaw is that she cannot see beyond her own perspective AT ALL and in fact seemingly refuses to, even after all that time.
I think something else worth mentioning is the human children that fell. When Asgore declared war on the humans, and them falling down became the only way he would end up collecting SOULs, I don't think he expected or wanted only children to fall. But ultimately that's what ended up happening.
@@fourthmatchflamesans is strong because he can cheat and he can manipulate the numbers. He does indeed have 1 attack... per frame. Saying that he isn't strong because anyone can cheat if they learn it, is like saying that jacked people aren't strong because anyone can get jacked.
@@barnabasszoke6499 sans is also strong because of "karma" effect which is i think applies to us because we literally killed almost the whole underground, so i think if someone who doesn't have bad karma fights sans the fight would be more easier (sorry if bad grammar)
Like 80% of the main characters got stood up by the fandom but probably Asgore most of all, poor guy. He's one of my favourites. The only AU I can think of where he has any significant role (besides IF) is Underfell and he's just comically bad and it gets rid of all his nuance.
Canon Underfell does so many things right but I think Asgore's execution is disappointing. Him having poisoned Chara there is super messed up and the one thing I do not like from an otherwise solid AU.
@@Dorked I have a friend who made their own version of Underfell that changed that detail to Asgore pushing Asriel and Chara to duel for combat practice and Asriel accidentally killing Chara during a practice spar. Something like that is definitely better than Asgore poisoning a human child.
Something that I love is the specific mention of the ink being still wet with "nice day today" It sets up his character to be cheerful, yes, but it also adds to how devastating you showing up was for him.
He was a dad that I wished I'd had. He did difficult things for those whom he loved, like mine never did. Asgore will always be my favorite of the cast.
undertale yeah but i don't feel like characters in deltarune who don't make it to the dark world can be considered well written yet since they could be completely different
yeah, although in deltarune we have to wait to see it, but i think deltarune is going to be much better than undertale, in probably every aspect, so its probably that asgore has more time in the screen and would be a better written character.
I believe a lot of people just side with Toriel because they met her first and got bought by her pies. In fact the community has falsely said asgore has anger issues. Typically the argument against Asgore is that they wouldn't react like he did to his childs death. But like. A: most of the people saying that have never experienced the death of their child And B: Eeven if they did. They're not in Asgores position as the leader of thousands of people. It's not that they wouldn't react like asgore. They're literally not in his position to act like him
Wouldn't most world leaders want revenge for the murder of their heir/child? I don't think going "oh well, time to do nothing about this" when your heir is murdered by another group is a realistic response.
@@thehuyto exactly my point. Monsterkind had already been wronged by humans. Everyday they wake up is a constant reminder of that. Then humanity goes and kills the prince. Asgore was already grieving, but he also had to confront the fact if did nothing. Monsters would see that as him saying, humans can continue doing what they want to them.
i side with both asgore and toriel. i dont see how ppl can hate toriel and/or asgore. Although, toriel also was in a position to lead and lost her child yet she didnt resort to violence. it was reasonable for what asgore did considering he lost so much. his kids, freedom, etc. were all lost because of the humans.
@@mysticalaces8623 I don't hate toriel. I just acknowledge that she isn't the Saint everyone thinks she is. Look at it this way. Yeah, she didn't resort to violence, but she also, never acted on her own plan of using one soul to leave and peacefully get the rest. (This plan of hers is ofcourse blatantly ignoring the literal generations of persecution to monsterkind by humans, but lets stealman toriels position here) Now sure. It may have felt wrong after the first human. ... But what about the second? Ok. Still feels wrong. ... The third? Mmmabey it's time to do something besides sit on her chair in isolation. ... The fourth? Ok now she's just knowingly doing nothing as children fall to their doom. When she could go, grab souls and barricade the entrance, while she peacefully gets the rest. ... The fifth? DO SOMETHING!!!! ... the sixth? Yep. Toriel has indeed stood by while six humans died. You see my point? Yes asgore could have done this, but he's also the one who declared war. It was out of anger sure, but he'd look like a coward and uncarring to his people. Yeah so I know, I said I'd fight to protect you all, but... I'm over it... You know...? It's still NOT an excuse. But we can see where he's coming from. He made a declaration in a moment of anger, but it was a declaration so important to providing hope to monsterkind, that going back on his word publicly would feel like the ultimate betrayal of his peoples faith. Can he come up with a better plan, mabey. He could also fuck things up even more. So instead, asgore, procrastinated and procrastinated. Even down to the last second, letting frisk go take care of business before starting the fight. Hoping Frisk takes the hint and just never comes back. What's Toriels excuse? Fear of being attacked by monsters? She's the queen. For all her emotionally motivated propoganda about asgore being a demon. He never stopped loving her. He'd let her walk right up to him, slap him, and he'd say. "I'm so glad to see you again" As she walks past him. Grabs a soul and leaves the underground Is she afraid of the humans attacking her? Then put simply, she is a hypocrite for expecting of asgore what she herself is too scared to do. But you know what. Those most likely aren't the reason. Because the real reason. Is that she just can't stand the site of Asgore. She's petty. She's so petty, she feeds the humans lies about her Ex, that could work against them in the underground, choosing violence or self defense. Expecting the devil. She's so petty, that she refuses to accompany the humans to asgore, to keep them safe and potentially discover an alternative salution, having 2 boss monsters, the royal scientis and a human present. (More if she did anything early enough and more fell) She's so petty, that she won't even, ignore Asgore long enough to walk past him and save millions of lives by preventing the oncoming war. Toriel, is guilty of inaction, while being the one in the optimal position to do something. Now, afterall this. As I said. I don't jate Toriel. In fact this makes her a compelling character. A far more compelling character then the flawless saint the fanbase thinks she is. She's petty, judgemental, controlling. All very real flaws that toriel wouldn't be Toriel without. And that's what makes her a fan faveorite. That despite all her flaws, she's still a good person. And the fact that we met her first. Imagine for a moment, that we met asgore first. With the knowledge, that we'd need to kill him to leave. Without the toriel propoganda, he's A: acting in self defense, and B: fighting for his people. He's a good person, who just happens to be in our way. Edit: bleh that was long. I know. Sorry lol
I actually really like Asgore and is easily one of my favorite characters in Undertale, I am surprised to hear he is hated this much. I like how complex his situations are and how he doesn't always make the right decisions, but genuinely feels bad about them despite how understandable the mistakes are. He genuinely seems like a decent guy just repeatedly put in awful no-win situations from both others and his own emotionally driven making.
it does boggle my mind how people can see a game that makes its point be that no character is 100% good or bad and that and that they cannot be judged solely by their actions and that its important to empathize with them and know their needs to then take a character to shift all the blame and hatred towards, or instead get so lost in defending that character they erase their flaws and darker lore that make them so interesting. my jaw dropped when you mentioned the "asgore groomed undyne to hate humans" theory people supposedly have because that is so??? weird? like i barely have any words for that besides wow, what a misunderstanding of the themes and characters. what makes characters like undyne and asgore and flowey/asriel so awesome is that YES they all did terrible things, but despite that, we still are allowed to know them past those actions and understand their rich personalities and watch them grow. in general i will always prefer multifaceted approaches to characters than your usual fandom watering down of them. great video!! i was EXACTLY going to maybe bring up ralsei as a possible character to analyze when you mentioned him and i was like huh!! well then!!! something to look forward to! very excited thank you :3
Ralsei is really high on the list, but it's a video where I'll definitely wanna take my time and find as much optional text as I can in addition to the videos I already have. I at least have most of the optional dummy dialogue with him recorded as I kept trolling the poor dude. xD
I love toriel and asgore but too many ppl always either bring down either character to prove that the other character is better😭 i love both cus theyre both complex and flawed and thats what undertale is about!!! Super excited abt the sonic satam vid btw!!
As someone who was once harassed incessantly by fans for having the audacity to say that sans is overrated and I was upset that he took time away from Asgore when I was a literal child back in 2015, I feel so validated by this video. I've always loved Asgore in every way someone can love a character, and he absolutely needs to get more love than he does. I remember being in absolute shambles doing his fight for the first time because in a matter of minutes Undertale made me never want to hurt this soft fluffy man who just made some very bad decisions. I could see the love, the heart, dare I say the determination in him, and when he appeals to mercy in the final moments of his life with that pained smile on his face after talking about missing his wife, I started crying, and it only got worse when Flowey took him out. Thank you for preaching to the choir about the fact that this character deserves as much love as everyone else.
I hate how the majority of the characters are boiled down to a single note when they're a lot more complex than that. Asgore the child killer/sad divorced dad. Alphys the shy wreck. Papyrus the silly skeleton who hates puns (? Where did that idea come from). Undyne's either a goof like Papyrus or just anger issues personified, no mix of the two. You get the idea :( Also I'm glad this video discusses the Asgore vs Toriel discourse I see a lot, why do we have to pick a side? Can't they both just be good characters with flaws?
Sans the funny skeleton man and genocide guy. Toriel the goat mom. Chara the murder child. Mettaton the sexualized robot. Seriously, why is Asriel the only character allowed to be multidimensional?
@@liviwaslost He actually tells more puns than Sans, so it's truly ironic that his dislike of Sans' comedic timing was interpreted as him hating puns with a burning passion.
I agree! I love both Toriel and Asgore, they both made mistakes and reacted to a tragic event in different ways. I never understood hate against either asgore or toriel imo
I'm new to Undertale/Deltarune, as of December 2022. I was unaware of Undertale's release in 2015, and vaguely aware that it existed between 2015 through last year. I had no idea what it was or what it was about. I dunno how I managed to avoid all the spoilers. I'm astounded by how this character, over the years, has been mischaracterized. Asgore was a father first and foremost, and I could tell that he was not happy about fighting us/Frisk in Undertale once we finally reached him. He had the responsibility of a whole kingdom on his shoulders and was working with royal scientists to try and break the barrier. When you don't have a choice, what are you supposed to do? He shows guilt, regret and remorse. He is avoidant of his responsibilities, and the morality of his choices are not lost on him. He has tough decisions he doesn't want to make. What did Toriel do by contrast? Lied to us about how it was SO dangerous outside the door, tried to coerce us to stay without asking if that's what we wanted, and never, not once, did she pick up the phone to answer us on our travels. We disobeyed her and she either gave up on us so as to not get attached because she knew we might die, or was unhappy with our choice and punishing us. I know she did those other things because she is a parent and we are playing a child protagonist, and she just wanted to protect us. But a bit of honesty and respect would have been appreciated... Then she has the audacity to show up again later just to have a petty argument with Asgore. If it was so dangerous to leave the ruins, and if we are lead to believe she tried to warn the other humans about the dangers before us, why didn't she take the responsibility to travel with any of the other humans to protect them? Why didn't she travel with a human herself and tried to negotiate with Asgore herself with any of the other humans? I don't know if she ever shows any remorse for never picking up the phone or letting us go alone. My heart broke for this character, he was dealt a bad hand in both timelines in Undertale and Deltarune and his story seems to be about him trying to cope, and trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I cherish him as a character because of this; despite how unfair his life gets, he still continues to be kind and still tries to face the day. The treatment of his character in Deltarune makes me wonder if the creators of the game hate Asgore too. 😕
Honestly, my take on DR Asgore and Toriel is that the divorce was more due to Toriel's personal issues than anything else. But Toriel refuses to talk about her issues - or anyone else's, if Kris is any indication - so she never fully explains why she was upset and wanted to separete. That's why Asgore thinks that they can work things out - because he was so happy with her, and she won't tell him what upset her, that he doesn't understand why she's so mad. And maybe there was something he was doing that was genuinely problamatic, but it'll never be worked out now because she just won't aknowlege that a problem exisists. I got this take from how she interacts with Kris, the way she only barely aknowleges that Kris isn't behaving like themself, calls it a good thing because they're acting more 'normal', and doesn't seem to want to deal with the fact that this kid is obviously miserable - if the fact she has to lock her bedroom door or Kris will ruin her stuff isn't a red flag that Kris needs help, I'm not sure what is.
@@sirthisisawendys9030not implied, confirmed, if you call Toriel while in the legendary artifsct room, the text says that there's sound coming from your inventory, only when Toby is in there mind you
People often overlook how Alphys and her research strengthen Asgore's character. After killing an unknown number of humans, Asgore asked Alphys to try and find another way. He didn't want to continue. But ultimately, Alphys' research failed and he had to continue. There was no alternative. He likely did the same with Gaster, although this can't be confirmed.
Something i noticed is that humans in undertales story initiated a war and took probably thousands of monster lives just because they were afraid that monsters would steal their souls, but the moment asgore has six humans killed to free his people he is immediately demonized by the fandom, like :///
I would like to see someone talk about how much of a coward Toriel was, and that she has no highground to talk down Asgore. She could've done the same with getting a soul and setting the monsters free, but she was too much of a coward to do it. She could've stayed and made Asgore come back into his sense, to help her kingdom even if she completely disagreed with Asgore, but she was too much of a coward, and left. She put the lives of hypothetical humans that she didn't even know might ever fall down Mt. Ebott over her whole kingdom. She turned her back on all of them, because she disagreed with Asgore and it took him dying for her to decide to step back up again. And she knows all of this or at least half, she calls herself pathetic when she can't even save a single child. And she also puts responsibility on random people just like Asgore, by making Sans promise he'll protect any human that comes through, and he does it even when you kill all but one monster in a failed genocide route. And when you kill her in a neutral route she outright tells you to not let Asgore succeed, she wants Asgore to fail, she puts humanity over her own kingdom. Don't get me wrong I love goat mommy as much as anyone, but... her hypocrisy cannot simply be ignored.
@@Irreverent_Radiation yeah, damn toriel. quite literally toriel is a joke as in, toby fox literally made toriel as a joke on how tutorials baby the player
yeah, i'm surprised no one ever talks about it, i'm not a huge fan of toriel because it feels like she's kind of a traitor i understand no one wanted to be in the situation they were in, yet it feels like toriel just gave up her duties as queen and left to live alone and pretend it wasn't happening, and it even feels like she's siding with humans most of the time it feels like she forgets asgore is in the same situation as her, they both are trapped underground, they both lost their families, yet she acts like asgore is a horrible murderer and not someone doing what he thought he had to do as king to free his people and get closure from the loss of his children, but from how she (and parts of the fandom even more so) act like he's some heartless king who gets joy from murdering children for no reason
it's so interesting to see a more aggressive looking Asgore from the beta content you shown. I was always compelled by how nuanced he is and how much grief has influenced his decisions. It felt off putting to see an Asgore who is actually intimidating and aggressive by the nature of those sprites.
The whole thing about how people give flowey a pass and hate asgore for killing the 6 humans so reminds me of the steven universe fandom and how they despise pink diamond/rose but love the other diamonds who are legit just space nazis
Poor King Fluffybuns is my personal favorite character of the game (Sans in second place and Flowey in third in case you were wondering) because of how many of his character traits clash in a believable way. He's soft and compassionate, but every bit as fierce and powerful. He is a coward and a fool, but also the only one that was willing to spearhead the Monsters' return to the surface. He loves children, but has ended six of them to uphold his vow. He's silly and comical, but has one of the most serious and somber encounters in the entire game. People in reality don't always have actions that line up perfectly with their beliefs, and sometimes they have completely opposing attributes that don't necessarily make sense even to them. The old man with multiple lifetimes worth of mistakes and regrets, but carrying on despite everything, head lowered, towards a future he thinks will be better than what they have now, no matter how grim his actions must be... that's determination. Just because he didn't get a 2nd phase Genocide fight doesn't mean he didn't have it. Also his theme song is amazing. I honestly have to put it AT LEAST on par with Megalovania, it's not even a contest with the rest of the soundtrack.
To be honest, I actually like Asgore a lot more than I do Toriel. I find him a much more relatable character in the sense of him genuinely wanting to do right by his people and atone for his past misdeeds (which, even then, was as a result of an extremely difficult situation he had to handle alone as a result of Toriel being a hypocrite), and he overall gets an unjustified amount of hate.
Nobody gives toriel the shit that she deserves. She abandoned her kingdom and her people in order to play house leaving her equally grieving husband to try to figure this shit out on his own and try to lead his people through the darkness. Yes, murdering six kids is horrible. You know what's also horrible? Condemning future Untold generations of monster children to be trapped in an underground World never seen the sky, all while trying to keep your dwindling endangered race from losing all symbols of Hope after having both of the heirs being killed. He was angry at the humans from murdering two of his adopted kids, and said what he said in Anger - leaving his equally angry and desperate people to latch on to that, trying to get back onto the surface. But and what the toriel do? Leave. Abandon everyone that she was responsible for. She could have been the voice of reason and empathy, but instead she got disgusted and left both the king and his kingdom to flail. She let those children die and is equally responsible because she thought playing house would be enough. You would think after the second or third time at most she would understand that shit is not working but no. Asgore May the wrong decision to try to solve the problem, but at least he was trying to solve the problem instead of running away from it like toriel did.
I might've missed a line that confirms it, but how certain is it that all six human souls in Asgore's possession belonged to children? It would be tragic odds for six children _in a row_ to have fallen, EIGHT in a row counting Chara and Frisk... Edit: In a pre-release interview with the Escapist, Toby said several human *children* had gone to the mountain... Those odds really are tragic.
Just truly unfortunate. The fact that *eight children* felt the need to go to that mountain where it was said that people never return...has implications for all of them, even if the motives might differ a bit.
Well, several is still pretty vague, it could still have at least 1 or 2 adults fall in, after all accidents like this can still happen when some adults climb up mountains (especially if theres a legend about MT. Ebott, which would bring a lot of attention.)
@@Debater we know chara went here for a really unhappy reason, but the others mught have came here because of growing curious about the legends or something.
Cool thing I noticed: ASGORE and TORIEL share one common flaw: They underestimate how kind and understanding their people are. ASGORE chooses to continue the war and eventually commit suicide because he fears what will happen if he calls it off. TORIEL runs away and tries to help the other humans, growing to hate her own people without understanding that the war declaration was a culmination of everyone's suffering and desparation, not just hatred and murderous intents. Both of them could have changed their minds at any point and chose a better path, but they didn't, because they didn't understand how the others truly felt. ASGORE is no saint, but neither is TORIEL. And neither is a bad person at heart; they're both extremely morally grey, but they deserve a chance at redemption.
I hope Rudy doesn't end up dying. I'm not sure how much more Asgore can take, what with his divorce, poverty, implied estrangement from his kids, threats of eviction, etc. Like the guy's not making perfect choices but were I in those circumstances, I doubt I'd be making perfect decisions either.
16:06 i like to think that's because by the moment toriel threw a fireball and everyone stepped in to stop the fight, asgore for the first time in a while, finally releases the heave of guilt and burden he carried on his shoulder for years. that was him allowing himself tl breathe again, and be silly again. i feel like that's relief talking over in that shift. we finally see asgore and mr dreemur visually. great analysis btw! you really put asgore's characters into well written words, i myself can't find it in myself to hate him even with the fandom's outlook on him, so this video was a great find to fully understand why.
In undertale the game constandly hypes asgore up so Toby really wanted to show he's importand. However, sadly he gets almost no screentime except for the battle. If we were able to bond more with him then he'd be a much more recognised and loved character.
@@Dorked At least most of the core was for mettaton. However, surprisingly the low screentime treatment did NOT stop Muffet from being loved by fans! Wich is quite strange, she gets even less attention than asgore, but she isn't forgotten like him 🤔
@@Dark_Slayer3000 muffet essentially is a gimmick type character who was also made by a fan. I imagine that they were deliberately made to have a strong and distinctive introduction with the fact that their encounter is incredibly brief in mind and also comes out of nearly nowhere. They were a pleasant surprise as it would. They also have essentially zero ties to the rest of the cast and thus a player would have zero expectations upon meeting them. Asgore on the other hand was hyped up for the entire game. As a monster by one of the most fan popular characters too which does not help matters. Asgore also being this broken down, sorrowful king also makes his stage presence far less charismatic, more subdued and solemn, and less immediately eye catching for people seeing him for the first time I imagine. Like he doesn’t want to be there, which appears to be the point of his character but also makes him lack stage presence, with other more forceful characters effectively stealing the show from him when they are onscreen and him getting shoved to the side. Undertale had an entire game beforehand with characters such as Toriel, Papyrus, sans, Undyne, Mettaton, heck even Alphys despite her sheer awkwardness manages to forcefully barge into the narrative and temporarily take some of the spotlight from mettaton.
@@fishyfishyfishy500akabs8And i think the reason why Sans is so goddanm overrated is because he makes puns, and is very memeable. Boom. Fan faveroite.
God. I hope that Deltarune‘s Asgore will see some redemption for him. He seems even more down-trodden than in the Pacifist ending encounter so far, but various theories give me hope that his sympathetic tragedy will get highlighted more in future chapters (perhaps even the very next one)…
every time i see toriel's suggestion of getting one soul, going through the barrier and then get 6 more i get mad, how is that in any way shape or form a better solution? yes maybe its faster, but its the opposite of peaceful, if anything it could make the humans come down and wipe them out for good
I suppose you could argue he could get souls from dying hospital patients or from graveyards if the souls ended up there, but it'd still require humans to trust him in the first place.
There is so much wrong with this. First of all Asgore wanted/promised to wipe out humanity after he freed the monsters so that the humans could never threaten them again. Also after absorbing just one human soul Asriel, who was a child at the time, became so powerful that he could've easily killed all of the unspecified amounts of villagers that were armed and attacking him. So fearing the humans could somehow put the other monsters in danger if Asgore chose to attack is just unreasonable. But most importantly: THAT WASN'T A SERIOUS SUGGESTION. Toriel didn't want him to do that. She was just pointing out how Asgore is a massive coward that wasn't actually interested in killing people or freeing monsters and that he chose to "declare war" while simultaneously hoping that the last, or any human, would never come so he wouldn't have to fullfill his promise. Toriels point wasn't that Asgore should have killed more humans sooner, it's that he shouldn't have killed any at all because he clearly didn't want to and that he's a hypocrite.
@@tobiasbayer4866 I definitely think Toriel's words are misconstrued, as you said. Though I think Asgore's actions were entirely born of grief and he acted impulsively and angrily and came to regret it VERY fast. He could have said "I wasn't in my right state of mind," but I think there was a real risk of that outraging his people, and it's an odd situation because he's very beloved but several neutral endings show that monsters are willing to rise up against the crown. Though Toriel was also absent for so long that there's less attachment to her than Asgore, so it's hard to say if they'd treat him the same way. I think Gerson has a better counterpoint, if anything- and hell, even Asriel, because going to the surface to take more SOULs would likely start another war unless it was done in a way where the souls were taken from dying hospital patients who consented. I think Asgore with human SOUls would be powerful- but that power would require him to commit to the promise if things went south, which is why he preferred to prolong it all, even if in the end he was getting the people's hopes up when he wasn't feeling it.
@@Dorked Yeah, I mean... they freaked out and killed Asriel over it, who was just smol babby goat boy. Now imagine how they'd respond to his much bigger burlier dad, even if we all know he's a huge pushover too... oAo
My thoughts on Asgore: I think his battle sprite is genious! I always thought he had this evil smile, but eventually I realized that he was looking on the ground in sadness and shame, and I love this little detail about him. Also I went on a whole rant about his themes Bergendrückung and Asgore once, but I won't repeat it here. Just briefly, I like how so many leitmotivs, like Heardache, Bergentrückung, and Determination, play together in Asgore, because it's a very good reflection of his character, and that through the meaning of Bergentrückung the leitmotiv story gets even more content to it. As you may be aware of, Bergentrückung is a german word that describes a tale of a king living in a mountain or something like that (I never heard of this tale until I played Undertale). As a german myself, I had no idea what Bergentrückung, or simply Entrückung is supposed to mean, until I googled what exactly an Entrückung is. Entrückung is the german word for "rapture" (I also had no idea what rapture is, so for anyone that doesn't know this either, rapture means when the people on earth are taken into heaven by an angelic force or something similar to that (It's been a while since I researched this)). So instead of the king in the mountain, Bergentrückung literally can be translated to "mountain rapture", and I think this is a nice reflection of Undertale's story, and Asgores motivation. Lastly I think it's genuenly disgusting how some fans handled their dislike of Asgore. Hating a character is no excuse to harass and stalk people who may like them.
Oh yeah I didn't notice how Asgore has like zero merch. You're probably right about him being controversial (I bet if he has a plush someone would probably violently shred it). Yeah, the discourse between Toriel/Asgore has turned me away from both so I hope Deltarune explores more of their familial dynamics.
If Queen in Deltarune chapter 2 is supposed to be a reflection of Noelle’s mom, then I think King is a reflection of Asgore. He’s a villain, probably because Toriel villainizes him so much, but King is clearly concerned about Lancer just like how Asgore clearly cares about Kris
Maybe King is ruined by the fact that Susie's parents are abusive and thus she connotates parenthood with abuse, which corrupts the King as a darkner, but every positive side of the King is formed based on Kris' connotations of parenthood, and thoughts on their own father. This is assuming that darkners and everything in the dark world is based on the lightners in said world.
been looking forward to this video! I personally haven't heard asgore talked about much at all, so it's nice to get an analysis video on him to understand more of his character.
I always knew Asgore was holding back greatly, cause I mean he lived through the war all the way through without getting hurt, that shows his power. If he wanted, he could use all his power and keep killing us until we just give up like the rest...But he doesn't. Asgore genuinely has a really sad history that makes even me sad. He is my favorite character no doubt
Okay, Toriel's idea of what Asgore should have done (it's on 13:29) may sound somewhat more practical, but. I just can't picture Asgore doing this. As much as some part of fandom likes pointing out that he's a murderer, he's actually very reluctant about it, as was said in the analysis. It may sound paradoxical, but Asgore is too kind to do what is best for the monsters. Waiting at his home for humans to come to him themselves and fight them is one thing - it's like making it at least a little bit less painful. After all, they sort of found their way to their death themselves. It is still a heavy burden, but this he can manage. However, going through the barrier with the intent of hunting down more souls to strike down? It sounds like something that requires much more determination to kill. Something that Asgore actually lacks. Yes, he killed children. But the fact that he couldn't have done what Toriel had said he could have done just proves to me that he IS a compassionate soul who hates hurting others.
True, I mean, he never absorbed the human souls even in the genocide route (you know, where the human is running around murdering everyone) so I'm pretty sure he'd never do it until all of them are collected and the time came to break the barrier. Even if what she meant was ask people for their souls, that's still hinging on the fact that Asgore can't be discovered by anyone that freaks out or the person he talks to goes to snitch to the pitchfork failing torches mob group of people, and gets chased back into the barrier (possibly exposing monsters to a scared mob) and possibly killed himself. (It really just takes one bad person to bring that whole plan crashing down and the guy needs to hope that 6 people he talks to all are willing to eventually give up their soul to him and won't be like "yo this demon goat wants my soul I should probably tell someone about that and maybe not do that, that's kinda suspicious") Toriel is weirdly trusting of humans honestly, I don't get how she thought this whole thing could work. Especially since I'm pretty sure she was in the war against humans at their worst.
THIS! You can literally refuse to fight until the very last moment, sacrificing your freedom but saving your life. But no, all the people WANTED to go to the surface, because that was their home (as if it wasn't also a home for monsters) and went there, knowing that they would either become killers or die.
Watching these character analysis videos always feels like an eye opener to me, even if I've known a lot about the characters already, there's always stuff I've missed or stuff I didn't think about, it's always fascinating to hear more about these characters I never viewed Asgore as a heartless murderer, because like this video beautifully paints, he's not. He's an intensely tragic character, and although he is an antagonist, I can't ever say was a villain. He's made terrible choices and many mistakes, but it just makes his more jovial Santa like demeanor all the more surprising and showing at least parts of his resilience, at least in some fashion Watching these makes me personally wish I had done things differently when writing my own Undertale AU, Undead Tale. The Alphys one made me realize that I shafted her character and gave her so little presence when now I would absolutely give her a very prominent role, it made me rethink how I handle parts of Gaster and the DT Experiments, and this one is makes me think about how Asgore maybe would've been handled differently, though honestly, I'm still happy with how he turned out in the story This is more of a personal tangent, I know, but I want to try and change some of these things for any potential follow ups or other AU stories I do, because I love these characters and I feel like I need to do them better next time, but there's still a lot I feel I miss out on or don't fully grasp yet. I'm not great at picking up small details, hell even with Undertales soundtrack it took me years to realize Death by Glamour has the It's Showtime! motif in it, lol, but still, I want to do these characters right in whatever I do next, and I feel these videos help me with that by giving me a fuller view and understanding of the characters
It's so silly that people say they don't like Asgore because he killed 6 kids, but William afton is an extremely popular character and how many kids did he murder?
I somewhat know fanf lore (or at least what people think the lore is) and I believe he is directly responsible for 11 (that we know of) and indirectly responsible for 2. Unlike afton,Asgore actually has an understandable reason and feels great remorse for his actions.
@@OrangeBuntwhat was Williams fate in the best outcome of the games? He suffers an extremely painful death having his body punctured by a springlock suit and gets burned a ton of times while in it. All that happened to Asgore was his wife doesn't like him anymore, so I think a feeling of an undeserved happy ending contributes a lot. Not just for the killing kids but for essentially creating systematic racism in society convincing most in the underground that humans were the enemy and need to be destroyed
I didn't even realize who you really were until you mentioned Inverted Fate!!! My genuine reaction was: A 3 second gasp followed by "OH my god, this is actually Dorked!"
I didn't know there was a side of the fandom that hates Asgore that much, like, i knew there were people who didn't like him for what he did, but i didn't think people would hate him enough to make those tweets
I think that the Asgore/Anakin analogy goes a bit deeper than “kid killer”, in both cases, they were murdering children out of grief/fear of loss and ended up losing themselves and their significant others in the process, but (depending on which route you choose) they eventually end up somewhat redeeming themselves, whether that’s throwing their manipulative master into a reactor shaft, or (indirectly) helping their kingdom go free thanks to their revived son, in both cases they sacrifice themselves to save their remaining family.
Asgore and Anakin definitely have a lot more common things between them once you step back and look at them. Obviously, the major difference is their kill count and one of their wife is still alive but hates him.
God this video was vindicating. Asgore is my favourite character in the game. Has been since I first played it. Such a compelling and tragic character who Toby Fox managed to give so many layers in so many screentime. A character whose personality is conveyed not just through dialogue but even the gameplay itself in the best boss fight in the game (I will stand by that). And this video not only highlighted so many of the little moments that give him nuance but it is a great rundown of just how dirty he gets done. Both in the game and in the fandom. In the fandom, Asgore is a victim of this absurd idea that liking a character is the same as condoning their actions, and that every character can be neatly sorted in good guys and bad guys. If you want proof that media literacy is a mess online, just check out Asgore discourse for 5 minutes. It was such a relief to se this video debunk the most common bad faith arguments without demonising Toriel, who is herself a great and layered character. But you also touched on something else that bothers me. Undertake itself kind of does Asgore dirty. The Pacifist ending reduces him to a punching bag. The tragic history of the Dreemurr family is just mined for divorce jokes that rob both Asgore and Toriel of further potential character development. And as you say, he doesn’t even get much merch. It’s such a waste of one of the best characters in the game. He just gets reduced to a joke or an afterthought, and the fandom followed suit. It’s also interesting you touch on Deltarune. Because truth be told, I don’t like how he’s written there at all. After years of seeing Asgore reduced by fans to ‘child killer’ or ‘divorced loser’, DR Asgore feels like the same flanderisation I see fans do. You know what Asgore did in canon when he saw his wife after possibly centuries, and saw she wanted nothing to do with him? He respected her decisions and backed off. The way he’s written in DR just doesn’t feel in character to me and it’s the one thing I don’t like about the game so far. I really hope Toby Fox is building to a character arc here because this honestly bugs me. And only serves to be more fuel for the same bad faith arguments Asgore’s character has faced for years. It’s nice to see there are people who still appreciate the complexity of Asgore’s character. So thanks for making this.
I agree completely about the sentiments on Deltarune. It was enormously disappointing to see how his characterization was handled and felt weirdly out of character.
The thing I like most about Asgore is that he at least took responsibility, even though he made bad choices. He puts his people first and acted like a king. Toriel on the other hand seems fine with her people living trapped underground for eternity so long as no children are killed. The children dying was tragic, but their entire civilization is in danger. Toriel makes no effort to solve this in any way. She hides in the ruins and ignores the problem. I see Toriel as far more selfish than Asgore but the fandom acts like Asgore is the spawn of Satan while Toriel is an angel and a perfect mother. I wish people would hold Toriel accountable.
IMO Asgore is understandable. entire race took everything from you, TWICE, wouldn't YOU want to kill them all? i can't be only one who doesn't like violence too much but deeply wishes to get revenge on some people. Can I?
Yes. Most people would feel a lifelong hatred against those that killed their precious family. Anyone that claims otherwise is either some kind of Buddha or someone who never loved their family to begin with. The way Asgore handles it is.. not morally better but certainly different than most people. Because despite feeling justified for his actions by this sort of grief, he still aknowledges himself as a monster undeserving of mercy and accepts his own death as much he dishes out anyone elses. This is best proven when he refuses your mercy and kills himself so you, the human player, could go out to the surface and MAYBE figure out a way to save the monsters he couldn't. in this way, I don't think he is truly evil, a REAL monster would never have this kind of conscience for those they deem an enemy. It wouldn't even occur to them.
Ever since undertale first came out, i was immediately interested in asgore The playthroughs, how he acted, his tragic backstory, i absolutely loved his character It's absolutely shocking to me how people will hate on a video game character as much as they did
honestly, i have always really liked asgore. i love how he was foreshadowed as menacing and scary and brutal, and how several times on your way to New Home to fight him, you hear so much contradicting the scary image of him, and then how you meet him and get to see that he is indeed a really friendly guy who really doesnt want to fight you, but that he still can be scary and menacing when he has to be. i always hoped that him and toriel would get back together, because i honestly think that everything you hear about their relationship in undertale is just so adorable and it's sad that so much trauma at once made that entire relationship null. i think part of why i like asgore so much too is that the very friendly and gentle giant image, and how he really doesnt like conflict, reminds me a lot of my dad, so i kinda see him in asgore in some way, even if he hasnt done any of the horrible shit asgore did lol. it just makes me sad to see asgore being so hated, he deserves more compassion.
I think the big reason Asgore struggles being liked is he never stands up for himself. And this is coming from an Asgore fan. No matter how anti-toxic you think you are, most people have an instinct to look down on weakness. Specially if it's in a big strong male. Contrast this with Jevil or Spamton. Jevil is a Nihilist who is willing to murder three strangers trying to set him free and probably would do the same to anyone else. Spamton in Snowgrave gives you the Throne Ring knowing you'll do evil with it and is fine with that if he gets what he wants. You could maybe argue insanity for them. But there's also the popular headcanon (if less common these days) of Chara as a psycho child who only loves knives and violence. All three of them get far more love despite being far happier about killing. If Toby Fox let Asgore do something cool or get an actual win or just stand up for himself it would shift public opinion on him a lot . But it feels like he's stuck in the comedy divorced dad role
Exactly. And whats worse nobody else defends Asgore after you meet him. As the video points out, Undyne should have defended Asgore after being barated by Toriel. Instead he is turned into the center of a joke. This serves as a good life lession, no matter how well intentioned you think others are defend yourself or you will get trampled.
Chara is not evil they are similar to noelle, you manipulate both to become "stronger" although chara might be more depressed and a little more evil than noelle
I still don't get why Toriel gets all the love of the fanbase, despite basically being just as bad. In a state of where the entire emotional state of the land in flux, and they desperately look to their leaders, toriel ran away, betraying her responsibilities as well as her husband. She made no attempt to stop Asgore from declaring vengeance. She sent six children who she KNEW would be killed to their deaths, and her solution to the 7th, was to deny her kind any salvation, in order to save a child she literally just met. In my incredibly outspoken opinion, Toriel is worse than Asgore.
It gets to me that he has that kind of hatred on him. Usually felt bad when it gets the short end of the stick in the situations he was put in officially even if talking it out is not an option anymore. Even in Deltarune I hope he gets good foreclosure on his situation as well as merch stuff, even if a plush makes him look like a cuddly dork. But after this video making me think of him more, I just want give him a big hug for what he goes through in the end of the day for his people and blind anger like the sad big fluffy goat dad pillow he is.
One thing about Deltarune Asgore not respecting boundaries like the Undertale Asgore does. When I first saw it, I interpreted it as him not believing it was his fault entirely. In Undertale he knew it was his fault. He's the one who made that impulsive decision to wage a war against humanity. He completely understands why Toriel was disgusted. That's why he's more easily accepting her decision, even if it hurts him a lot, because he knows that those are the consequences of his actions, and he can only blame himself. We don't know what happened in Deltarune, but it feels like whatever it was that split them apart, maybe it wasn't entirely Asgore's fault, maybe he doesn't realize it or maybe something else. It's jsut speculation, but sometihng very interesting I've noticed about keeping boundaries. As it's even the same case with real life people. We subconsciously respect others boundaries more when we are at fault for making them have them.
I really like SuperEyepatchWolf’s description of Asgore’s theme music “The frantic but reluctant Bergentrückung, […] the sound of a good person trying to convince himself to do something awful for what he believes is the greater good.” (He’s also notably the only character with the ‘determination’ motif in his character theme) That’s imo the most accurate description of him. He’s such a dad, being a dad is like, ingrained in the dna of his character, but he’s ended up in positions where his easygoing nature is unhelpful and maybe detrimental in solving the problems before him, which sucks :(
Stellar video. Asgore's always been my favourite Undertale character, and so it's very good to see such a well researched analysis on him. I've always found his complexity and flaws fascinating, and that just puts him above the rest for me; I realise that's not everyone's cup of tea, but I would hope that people are more civil about that. I just hope I can get a fangamer shirt for the big guy one day.
Asgore is one of my favorites and it's sad he gets so much disrespect. While him barely appearing in Undertale made his presence all the more impactful,I can only hope he gets more screentime in Deltarune,whether being connected to Kris or anything really.
Yeah, I'm hoping Deltarune does right by him. I was a bit disappointed with how... uncomfortable he behaved in Chapter 2 and I really hope Toby has a good payoff for that.
I so happy that asgore is gaining appreciation. I don't see a lot of fanart and fan comic that do more of him. Don't get me wrong he got some cool moments in the fandom, but I feel like still lacking. Oh and by the way I will love an analysis of frisk. That going to be hard because we don't know much about frisk. But there some interesting stuff about them.
I would say, for the longest time, I've seen Asgore perceived by the fandom as a severe case of Ron the death eater in the community. Ron the death eater is a ymmv (your mass may varied) trope that describe the character to be overly demonized by the fandom for various of reasons from their actions. But mostly for shipping purposes.
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what is that banger ASGORE cover played near the end???
ohh
Asgore were rewritten in the pacifist, he should be more difficult
THANK you for pointing out that Toriel's argument against him makes no sense. As far as canon lore goes, neither of them know why Chara and Asriel crossed the barrier or what they did when they got to the village of the humans (although the monsters in new home seem to know a rough approximation of the truth). Asgore just knows that a village full of humans went up against the only monster to ever absorb a human SOUL, and the monster lost. Given that hypergoner asriel couldn't even destroy one particularly determined human child, it would be ridiculous to try to wage a war with one or even a few human souls under your belt. You might as well try to escape the underground doing the minimum utilitarian harm possible, and negotiate for peace.
"Don't forget about me, your eggs-husband" proves that Asgore is a comedic genius
i just realised- eggs=ex lol
@@TheRealAxolotlAnimates thank you
Agree
Thats probably the loudest ive laughed in a deltarune gameplay, the way he just barge in, the way he shouts it out, the way toriel essentially just “?” Is hilarious to me
Now I’m wondering if sans got his comedic presence from Asgore.
Everyone forgets that the famous ''Sans'' qutote ''It’s a beautiful day outside. Birds are singing, flowers are blooming'' is from Asgore, since he says it in the neutral rute, the one players always play first.
ive seen some play genocide first
@@mysticalaces8623 Yes, but It's intended to be played after the neutral route.
Sans is too lazy to even come up with an original line
@@genericname2747 well he at least added "on day's like these, kids like you, should be burning in hell." To make it somewhat original.
Yes, it's a play on Asgore's line, since you heard it before whilst fighting Asgore, Sans says the beginning but then changes the end.
In my opinion I think it's really cool because it makes you understand that the actual final fight isn't Asgore but Sans.
I think Asgore having the least amount of screentime out of the main cast might've also contributed to how unpopular he is in the fandom. If we got to hang out with him in the true pacifist route like we did with Papyrus, Undyne, Alphys, Sans, then maybe he would've been a bit more popular, but who knows.
Oh, screentime is probably a huge factor. I've also noticed people tend to forget things like how imposing and threatening Undyne was before she took the helmet off and focus more on her funny and friendly traits later, so i think it's also a case of certain aspects being forgotten/sidelined, too.
agreed
Tea time with Asgore best moment in Undertale
It could fit in the True Pacifist like, instead of him just going to the Barrier you can convice him to dri k some Tea and etc. Maybe even talk about Toriel and whatnot. Would be nice
This kinda reminds me of Magus from Chrono Trigger and how he's rarely ever praised as much as the other characters due to his one and done nature. In fact, he doesn't even appear in the sequel.
This is despite having the deepest backstory, (arguably) the best theme, unique gameplay mechanics, and is part of one of the most impactful player decisions in game.
I can see why he's underrated though: His backstory needs to be pieced together, his villainy is simply boiled down to "Surprise! Here's the real villain, it's not Magus!" his recruitment/defeat are both optional side quests, and after his main story beats he has no more bearing on the plot but instead is characterized by his backstory and the two cents he gives throughout the rest of the playthrough.
The actual biggest mischaracterisation the fandom made about Asgore is giving him a posh voice, he's obviously got a country/western accent. Dude says howdy, listens to country music, like come on. Let him be a silly country man.
Also "you know what I want, bone man" is one of THE BEST Deltarune quotes of all time. Seriously that whole scene is GOLD.
UTY clover and UT asgore having a cowboy duel floods my mind
I always imagine Asgore sounding kinda like Winston from Overwatch
i think a western accent would be a little bit hard to pull off with his personality. western accents are usually more intense sounding but hes a really gentle guy.
I always imagined him with a Keith David voice.
Imagine disliking a character for having a moral conflict. Thats how we are as people to begin with, and we learn and grow seeing where that turmoil takes people
FACTS!
People: *hate Asgore for being 'evil'*
Also people: *hyping AUs and ATs where Sans is increasingly more hateful and murderous*
At this point, I gave up understanding people. 😂
@@Sekaidestroyer the obscene fascination with Sans like that is one I will never understand. Sans is more wary and warning (albeit quite harshly at times) than CONSISTENTLY intent and murderous.
The sympathy angle you point out though is one I definitely dont get. Maybe its because Asgore technically has less screen time and is pitted as "responsible" for everything in a sense, but come on
Because most of the stupid people in the fan base who are vile and awful people are also that way in other fandoms and they just want to have something to abuse
Undertale fans when a character does bad things because they've become morally compromised and feel it's their best option out of a bad hand: 😡🤬😡🤬
Undertale fans when sociopathic genocidal murderer: omg they're such a skrunly skrimblo 🥰🥰🥰
I’m going to be honest, Asgore barging into Sans’s Shop and saying “don’t forget me, your eggs-husband” is genuinely one of the funniest things I’ve ever seen, and definitely the best egg pun I’ve ever heard
It was the best kind of cringe XD
it just makes me feel so bad for him, perhaps still having feelings for toriel while she is no longer interested 😕
I wonder if Asgore's throne standing where his children died is intentional. He literally never moved on.
didnt they died where frisk fell?
@@mintsmooth860 no, that was where Chara was BURIED, by Toriel after she left New Home.
@@mintsmooth860 …no?? that would make no sense in the story
@@mintsmooth860 Not quite. That was where Chara fell in the first place. They later moved to New Home. During the "Undertale" part it's said that Asriel died in their garden.
@@woobgamer5210 This was actually never stated anywhere. However it makes so much sense that it's probably true.
Tbh, I've always liked Asgore way WAY more than Toriel, mainly because he never hides in the "I'm hurting you so I can protect you" thing (I hate that trope because of personal reasons), he straight up is like "I really REALLY don't want to do this, but it is something I have to do to make my people free again" and he even makes it clear that, if the circumstances had been a little different, he would've gladly accepted you as his child, and the fact that he's one of the few characters that doesn't look to you when fighting, really sells that he's a product of a worst case scenario but even then, he's still as kind and well meaning as ever
FR!! in the cast of people who attempted to murder a child, i think asgore is easily forgivable
While Flowey is my favourite for how well written it is and how the game wouldn't be half as good without it, Asgore is a close second!
SOMEONE SAID IT 🙏🙏
Toriel could have also stopped asgore before any human souls were taken
Gets better, gents.
Toriel made it clear: 'you didn't need 7 souls. You needed one and you could get the others on the surface.'
That meaning: 'As long as you don't disrupt my chance to replace my dead children with these fallen humans, you can kill humans on the surface if you want'
Because it never been about violence for her. She used him as a Scapegoat (pun intended lol) for her frustration. That's why I love reading comics where they give him to chance to throw that back on her face. Lol
The whole thing about fans or fanart of asgore always being followed by "haha divorce" or "haha dead kids" is very similar to berdly's situation, where any fan/fanart always has atleast one person going "haha snowgrave", as a way to shoot down any appreciation of the character, by also pushing any negative traits under the sun onto him aswell.
That is true but atleast Berdly gets more respect then Asgore
@@elliotsturtplus340berdly is worst character ever i swear he was designed to be hated.
@@Lunarcreeper L take
@@Lunarcreeperl take
@@Lunarcreeper cringe not gamer take
People actually hate asgore??? Holy shit, I’ve only love asgore more since i recently got back into undertale. Him smiling if you choose to kill him at the end of his fight? That could make me cry on the right day
I was surprised too how can a creature hate asgore
When i see asgore
I see the perfect mix of a king and a father
He acts like both
In a perfect balance
But, he is sweet no matter what role he is acting in
For me, it's impossible to hate him
Because I actually understand why he did what he did
He had no other choice after saying that he would kill any humans that fell into the underground
He said that in a moment of rage, but there was no turning back, it was 7 random humans
Or the happiness and freedom of the monster kind
The "why he didnt raise them or let them live until the moment they died naturally if they werent aggressive"
Welp, i believe snowdin acts as that
There frisk was safe, nothing actually made them continue, it was their choice
If humans wanted to live peacefully, they just had to stay in snowdin, sans, the judge, is the highest rank after the king
And i dont think he let frisk live JUST because a promise
The promise might be the biggest part of it
But even without it i dont think he would have attacked any human that was innocent (one that didnt kill any monster)
But i dunno, maybe im just saying nonsense
Asgore deserves better but I feel like Toby personally hates him or what he represents or something
@@EggyEggtoast i dont think toby really hates a character he made, i think toby just has a lot of plans for asgore in DR so we can see asgore's growth and development in future chapters
@@mysticalaces8623 i hope you re right bud
I cannot believe that there's a not an Asgore fangamer plushie.The man is simply to huggable to not have one!
Holy frick i didnt know i needed that until you mentioned it
Same with Mad Mew Mew. I know they aren’t a significant character, but a figurine or plush of them would look cool.
he hardly has any merchandise, which is a crime.
THIS
As a kid, him bidding the player a gentle farewell and speaking of how it was nice to meet them really left a mark on me. For many reasons I like him a lot, but that was a very very impressive one.
I also believe that the fandom just wants someone to hate on honestly, and Asgore is an easy target. For many MANY theorized reasons. Ranging from just his normal flaws to him being an older male figure that could represent a disliked older generstion for certain fans.
In general the asgore hate is extremely unfair and media illiterate.
This game expects you to forgive Asriel and Flowey, but think its too high of an ask to forgive Asgore. What a joke.
For a game that hopes its players would show compassion, those players sure are full of hate, huh.
@@agent3689tbf the Undertale fandom in the first few years was freaking wild and filled with teenagers with a very manichean wiew as they dont know better, tbf it hasnt changed to much nowadays but the lesser amount of people around makes the remainer far more about the compassion than the edgy genocide
when is it ever implied that you can't forgive asgore in-game, just because toriel doesn't doesn't mean toby thinks you shouldn't either, even if he isn't in merch, but that's not a game thing
The game itself has no bearing on forgiving Asgore. In fact, it does give you the choice to spare his life and even become his child. (although Flowey pops him before he can make it official). The main joke the game (and its sequel) pulls is in regards to him and Toriel, and it definitely doesn’t exclude Asgore from the same forgiveness as Flowey in the neutral run
Growing up and maturing is realizing to forgive everyone in Undertale while still acknowledging their flaws or crimes committed(which includes your own and not just singling out Asgore or heck, blaming Chara for the things you did in your route).
I think my favorite piece of fanon regarding the discourse around Asgore is the Growth Spurt AU. It has Toriel hating Asgore like her canon counterpart, and eventually Asriel's like "If you hate him then you should hate me too".
Obviously Toriel didn't know until Asriel said it, and also she's a character within the story instead of an IRL fan, but it makes the artist's position on this discourse clear.
If you dislike Asgore for killing kids while in a difficult situation, it's inconsistent to like Asriel despite him wiping out the Underground multiple times for fun. On the other hand, if you forgive Asriel for his actions, it's inconsistent to not also forgive Asgore for his actions.
OH THAT LINE! It hit me so hard while I was going through the Growth Spurt AU. It's just so accurate.
@@axl256gamesx7 I'm sure their argument would be "but they're fictional characters but to Asgore they're just as real as he is!" Okay stop harassing people over a fictional character then.
I'm guessing the counterpoint for Asriel is that while he DID wipe out the monsters multiple times for fun, he ultimately reset over it and brought them all back, so it may as well have never happened. Or something along those lines, at any rate. :/c
@@F1areon ... true, but in the same Growthspurt episode Asriel makes it clear that he committed a "monster Genocide" multiple times, & that after Frisk arrived in the Underground Asriel literally lost count of how many times he ended up killing them--
Asriel: I must have killed Frisk *a thousand times*!!
Frisk: And that's with some serious rounding down.
Toriel: [horrified silence]
@@zenkim6709 Yes, but bc of the save point/resetting power, everybody came back; from the POV of basically every other monster, those genocides never even happened in the first place. Asriel and Frisk would be the only ones who ever remembered such things happening.
The thing that really gets to me about Asgore’s characterization is that, I guess as I always saw it, he’s never going to hurt anyone who isn’t willing to hurt him. He always makes sure that you’re ready to fight him knowing it’s either you or him, and that’s something I believe he applies to each human he’s forced to fight. He knows what he has to do to free his people, but he has the respect for each human he meets to give them the choice of staying below the Earth for the rest of their lives to have their souls taken through natural means, or die in trying to take Asgore’s soul and leave. It makes Toriel’s suggestions to him feel pretty gross imo (not giving her hate I just don’t appreciate how she treats him and manhandles the conversation around him), cus Asgore, to me, always followed a moral code that I can’t help but respect. Definitely a character I really like.
Copying my comment but...
THIS! You can literally refuse to fight until the very last moment, sacrificing your freedom but saving your life. But no, all the people WANTED to go to the surface, because that was their home (as if it wasn't also a home for monsters) and went there, knowing that they would either become killers or die.
No other boss monster see you and decide to fight but asks if you have anything else to do, the only one who does is his student Undyne. Undyne doesn’t keep her composure the way he does, she probably doesn’t even do that out of compassion but out of habit of her training with Asgore. Undyne wants to beat you as your peak, asgore wants you to make sure you’re ready to die.
but also, as another commenter pointed out, all of the 6 children that fell in the underground were taken care by Toriel and a lot of them may have spent years living with her before getting killed by Asgore, if you were in Toriel's shoes, it's extremely unlikely you would forgive him for that.
I attribute this more to Asgore being cowardly, than merciful. He wants to literally kill all of humanity. I believe this is the case because he readily sics the royal guard with orders to kill the humans they encounter, without mercy. He doesn't want to start the fight but still wants the humans dead.
@@Colon-D... he doesn't want the humans dead. he never stated that he wanted to kill all of humanity.
he declared war on humans in the heat of the moment, when he was angry over his children's deaths, but by the time frisk reaches him he regrets his choice, to the point where he doesn't just use one human soul to go to the surface, get the remaining 6 souls, and free all the monsters, because he's just hoping he won't have to kill anymore humans.
in the end of the true pacifist run, he says nothing about wanting to kill all of humanity.
It’s really unfortunate how so much of the fandom hyperfocuses on the flaws of certain characters like Asgore, while completely ignoring the flaws of more popular characters like Undyne or Sans. Like, Asgore feels extremely guilty about having tasked himself with killing the humans, (and refuses to accept mercy, and will even give you his soul to let you escape), but Undyne feels nearly no remorse whatsoever when trying to kill you (unless you annoy her by not dodging) no matter how innocent you are. On the other hand, Sans doesn’t care nor confront you on your potential crimes throughout the neutral stories unless you kill Toriel or Papyrus, despite having the power to do so.
I’m not saying that Undyne and Sans are bad characters tho, it’s just annoying how many people cherrypick attributes from some characters to create their own limited narratives. Asgore may have not been morally correct to do what he did, but he did have his entire people looking up to him to save them, and was forced between keeping the countless monsters imprisoned and taking the souls of the 6 fallen humans. He had to choose between 2 extremely awful options, and in the end (of some neutral routes), he wasn’t able to commit to saving the monsters, making his uncomfortable decisions unfortunately not have their desired impact
bro could even apply this shit to "uwu widdle pure soft goat child" who probably killed way more people compared to his father over and over just because he was bored and yet people want to hug him without hesitation
@@imjustgr8 Bro in his hyperdeath form he tries to destroy the whole timeline because he was bored, and reminder that form WAS Asriel.
@ImJUSTGR8 Haven't really thought about that before, but holy shit you're right! People are so willing to forgive Asriel or try to lampshade it by saying that he's just a kid, but there really is no arguing that he didn't know what he was doing for a long time. Asgore never laughed at or mocked his victims. In contrast, Flowie delighted in torturing people.
Undyne's my favourite character and I must say you are absolutely correct. I don't understand why they erase her flaws (or the skelebros), it's what makes her a more multidimensional character. Can we acknowledge that you can be a good character and flawed instead of just ignoring those flaws?
"ultimately, sans knows it is futile to stop the human from killing in the neutral route. however, the knowledge he has about a permanent end to his world motivates him to stop the human in the genocide route - in a last ditched effort to save the ones he loves."
Note that in the begining, Asgore and Dreemur are introduced as 2 different and totaly opposite characters, Asgore is told to be an absolute monster by Toriel, and Dreemur is told to be a sweetheart and kind king. That's why when Undyne first speaks about Asgore Dreemur, it's written in both red and yellow. That quote reveals that the insane murderer that Toriel warned us about and the sweet king everyone else loves are the exact same person. That reveal is so overlooked even tho it's an important part of Asgore's character.
I never realised how much Asgore was hated on until semi recently.
Him not being in official art is also very upsetting.
Thank you for this analysis and really bringing to light his character and how much of a nuanced character he really is
Perhaps he's not in official art to hide his appearance? He is the final boss after all
@@theStridingRebelit's been 8 years since undertale released and he doesn't even appear in recent newsletters or merch, and (almost) everyone in the fandom knows who he is
at least he was in the winter clock dialogue or whatever it is
@@theStridingRebelI thought about that being the reason, but tbh I feel like everyone knows his appearance even if you haven’t played the game yet and only seen clips or art. I’m starting to wonder if he just doesn’t have a plush or appear much in newsletters because he’s unpopular due to being hated for his crimes.
Something you didn't really touch on that I really love about Asgore is how the game goes out of its way to lead you to believe that "Asgore" and "King Dreemurr" are two separate characters, with most characters referring to him either by his first name or by his surname and/or title. Undyne is the one who reveals that they're one and the same, which makes her use of both red and yellow text especially important, it further emphasizes the conflicting information we've heard about this character, who we were led to believe was two different people. In the neutral route, we then don't really get any more information until the new home story: The Alphys stuff is neat, but it doesn't really tell us anything new about Asgore. While the most logical way to reconcile the conflicting sides of Asgore that we've learned of prior to new home is to assume Asgore is just racist, the new home sequence tells us that this isn't the case, and instead suggests that he's motivated by revenge. But this is immediately disproven when we meet Asgore and he's straight up *horrified* when he realizes that the last human he needs to free his people has arrived. His physical resemblance to Toriel is also quite important here, since by this point we associate people who look like Toriel with kind, parenty people. There's all the stuff you already mentioned about his fight and how he tries to put it off, but another thing to note is that his attacks get faster as the fight progresses, further showing his desperation to get this over with.
I also think it's important to talk about Toriel, since, let's be real, she's definitely contributed to these sorts of "one-dimensional child killer" takes on Asgore, in particular with her bringing up the idea of Asgore taking one soul and using that to free monsters. She's objectively being hypocritical, since she admits herself that she would not have gone through with her own suggestion. She's just using this suggestion to justify calling Asgore a coward, and yet *she's completely right:* Asgore is a coward. He's a people pleaser at heart, and is consistently described as a pushover. Asgore struggles to put his foot down even at the expense of his own mental health, and that willingness to sacrifice his own wants and needs to make others happy is a key part of his character. It's also worth mentioning that while Toriel's dislike for Asgore does ignore the tough moral choice that they were both faced with, it is very much justified, at least in Undertale. It's worth remembering that these weren't just six random kids Asgore killed. Toriel cared for each and every one of them, and based on her collection of kids shoes in various sizes, some of them likely lived with Toriel for months or even years, long enough for them to outgrow the shoes they fell down with and need new ones. It's quite likely that she was just as close with some of these kids as she was with Chara. The kids killed by Asgore were *Toriel's own children,* kids she loved just as much as she and Asgore loved Asriel and Chara. That's why she's so upset with him, why she's unwilling to consider the possibility of ever being friends with him again. She has a very good reason to hate him, and every right to. She doesn't owe him forgiveness , and in her shoes, I doubt there is a single person on the planet who would, and yet in spite of all that, by the events of the credits, she's already gone from outright hate to what Toby describes as "begrudged pity". Asgore, in turn, doesn't push for things to go back to how they were before like in Deltarune, he fully understands that what he's done is unforgivable, especially to Toriel, and gives her space. He acknowledges that their relationship is unlikely to improve beyond "begrudged pity" with their interactions being mostly restricted to spending time with mutual friends, and yet he's happy with that.
Toriel and Asgore are two sides of the same morally complex coin, two deeply depressed individuals dealing with grief, anger, and tough moral decisions in very different and yet similar, and very much unhealthy ways.
Yeah, I wish I had thought to comment on that distinction in the video- I noticed it after I had finished it and by then it was too late to edit it in and still make the release window I was shooting for.
True, though I feel Toriel isn't completely faultless either. When Asgore declared war on humanity after Asriel died, Toriel, instead of grieving with Asgore, or trying to make sense of what happened together, she left. It was as if she directed all the anger and resentment she felt towards the humans for killing her son at Asgore instead. He lost his two kids, his wife and the hope of his people all at once. The guy essentially lost everything. Not to mention that Toriel did absolutely nothing to stop Asgore from redeclaring war. She could have done anything to stop him. ANYTHING. Yet she didn't. If the Asgore ingame is anything to go by, then I am sure that Toriel could have convinced him to stand down after the initial shock had passed. Additionally, in her quest to protect the humans who fall into the underground from Asgore, she didn't save a single one. All of her efforts amounted essentially nothing. And despite her failure to keep the all 6 previous humans in the ruins, and in turn, ensuring they'd be killed, she doesn't seem to change or reflect on those failures. If Frisk was a normal, non-reality bending child, they would have died the same way the previous six did, with Toriel continuing on, likely to repeat the same mistakes if there was an eighth to fall. It's not to say I don't like Toriel, far from it, nice goat mom is nice, but she most certainly has her flaws, along with everyone else.
The worst part is that it’s not even confirmed that asgore killed the six humans at all. The six humans’ stuff is littered throughout the underground.
Holy crap. People are _really_ opinionated on this... Kinda interesting to read, though.
@@ShadowSaberBaroxio While I dont support Asgore x Sans and never really see it happening, the idea of Asgore c*ckblocking Toriel and getting with Sans despite the history Toriel and Sans have is hilarious.
GOD, Asgore doing Chara's weird "efficient" cup-filling quirk in remembrance of them legitimately makes me want to break down and cry. It's just too heartwarming and too cute and too sad all at the same time.
It is really painful to see characters like Asgore and Chara get demonized for their flaws by the fandom, only for that very same fandom to turn around and uphold Toriel and Asriel as the peak of morality. While Chara is especially near and dear to my heart, I love all of the Dreemurrs, and to see them reduced to caricatures of themselves is incredibly frustrating. It really goes to show that fandom is where nuance goes to die.
The worst part is that Toriel is an extremely immoral character. She imprisons people to fill out the void that the loss of her child caused her and unlike Asgore she didn't have any problem with killing children to free monsters. She just didn't like that Asgore killed the children she wanted to have replacing her dead ones.
The worst thing about Chara's perception by people is how the game makes the Chara-Flowey parallel pretty clear. Both are soulless beings that aren't capable of "love" without a soul. Yet Flowey gets excused and treated as a separate character from Asriel, while Chara doesn't get the same treatment. Pretty hypocritical imo.
@@barnabasszoke6499that's a wild mischaracterization of Toriel you got there but okay
@@Kagomai15 which part exactly
@@barnabasszoke6499the bit about her not having a problem with killing children, she absolutely does, whether they're "hers" or not
I saw a person on Reddit say they were an Asgore fan and had a Tumblr blog where they expressed it and someone accused them of, I kid you not, being a child murderer
Not a sympathizer or apologist, a perpetrator
Also accused them of doing *other* things to children if you catch my drift (bad things that have absolutely nothing to do with Asgore)
Oof. That might be my friend Pixie. They've gotten so much bizarre hate messages over the past few years and it's frankly disturbing.
????
what the [Fifty Percent Off]
Given how Deltarune Asgore acts, my hc is that he and Toriel are on a "separation" stage, not yet divorced. When they meet at the grocery store Toriel mentions that they need to discuss something when Asriel comes home, which might be the divorce. It doesn't excuse Asgore's actions but it at least explains why he's so convinced that things will work themselves out.
I also think that because they are both boss monsters with extremely long life spans, that have been through so much together, Asgore just assumes they are meant to be together. He seems like he puts too much value in fate and prophecies, rather than personal choices.
This does make a lot of sense! I also headcanon that Deltarune Asgore and Toriel are currently seperated, and will later on divorce.
Except there is nothing to excuse because he's not done anything wrong.
"Evil goat man bad hurr durr"
I should specify this is Deltarune Asgore I'm talking about here. Undertale Asgore is another, more complicated matter.
Toriel's still a hypocrite and a traitor and the blood of the humans is on her hands and her point about taking a soul is still null and void , however. Both as an actual plan and as a rethorical device.
@@lolaurabc In deltrune, I don’t think boss monster exist. I don’t think even magic exist outside the dark world, so taking stuff frome undertale and putting it into deltrune is not always a great idea.
Good video, but i can't believe that you didn't talk about the seperation between “King/Mr. Dreemurr“, the nice fuzzy pushover, and “Asgore“, the one, who will take your soul. Toby clearly chose to distinguish those characters before he revealed that they're the same person through Undyne.
Yeah by the time I realized, the video was already close to done. Alas!
I dont exactly have the talent to do it, but honestly I would love to read a comic where frisk actually stayed with asgore. Have it start with his speech before he ends himself, but frisk gets in the way to stop him. Probably he would apologize again for the idea of putting a child through that, and the comic from there could show what he does as a king when he's out and about, but also the sort of stagnation he has at his new-ish home. Like- I can picture a scene where he's at his desk writing about some hopeful idea of having someone around again, but he keeps scratching out parts because he's trying not to delude himself while still being cheery.
Oh, that would be a really fun idea. :O Lots of potential interesting character moments, too.
The only problem with that is Flowey would have to die waay before that point in the story or his motives would have to be changed.
@@rafsandomierz5313 Well, Flowey don't kill Asgore if you re-do the fight after the Flowey one.
@@sheogorath6834 So what about Papyrus's interaction?
It would definitely erase the pacifist timeline.
@@rafsandomierz5313 What about him? He doesn't have anything to do with what they were talking about.
13:50, my biggest criticism of "just let the humans live out their lives" idea is that Frisk is like ten or so. And with a healthy lifestyle, they could live to be nearly a hundred. That means that Alphys, Undyne, Sans, Papyrus, Monster Kid, the Nice-Cream guy, and everyone else we met in the game would have died without seeing the sun. Again, this does not excuse Asgore's actions, but it highlights what I feel is the ultimate reality: in a line-up of bad choices, he made the least bad one.
The least "bad" one, following this messy moral you're arguing where character I like >>> innocent children, would have been carrying out the plan fully instead of waiting for humans to fall to the underground.
The actually least bad one would have been waiting for the children to die of old age. It doesn't matter if the monsters that live right now in the underground don't get to see the sun, future generations will, and even then their joy isn't more important nor valuable than children's lives.
@motivated2473 LOL 😂 I’d like to see you say that if any of the Monsters you just mentioned were your closest friends. We’ve got a real Hater here folks!! 🤣🤣🤣
@@alirezaomrani7650 wdym
If monsters have any morality, then child killing, for whatever reason, would leave a bad taste in their mouth.
Considering monsters are made of compassion (which i personally think is monster propaganda), why would they be okay with living on the surface at the cost of innocent children.
Asgore could easily have used the first human soul to go to the surface and have brought back the souls needed, which meant many monsters who died during the time he was collecting souls could have seen the surface. But he didn’t.
What he did was corwardice and inexcuseable.
I still love him as a character and think he deserves a secound chance, but that doesn’t negate that he could have done better, even if he was put in a horrible position.
You can love a character and still be critical of them.
For example goat mom isn’t exactly innocent either, she could have stuck around to keep trying to convince him otherwise.
She could have spoken out as the queen, voiced her distaste.
She’s kind of a judgy dick. Asgore DID have to kill at least 1 fallen human to go to the surface and bring back souls of people who might be a little bit more deserving of death.
Its a complicated matter, Asgore is baby but he also comitted atrocities.
@@tikimillie >Asgore could easily have used the first human soul to go to the surface and have brought back the souls needed
And how exactly he would collect this souls lol. Asking nicely?
@@feilkate5892 ordering them at a KFC
I don't like how people often refer to him as a murderer,he did it because he HAD to not because he WANTED to. He is very cool too.
I know right? The kids came to him to leave, and both knew it was going to be a life or death battle.
he could have took one soul and gone to the surface and take 6
@@bloodrinkerAnd die in the process? Provoke a violent war?
That was something that Toriel brought up in true pacifist. And Asgore seemed to agree with it to some extent. I think he could've gotten 6 souls if he tried because with one human soul he'd likely be stronger than most humans but idk @@CojaGamez
@@CojaGameznevermind I just found my comment again, you're right I'm wrong lol
Asgore was put in a difficult position, Toriel leaving him to deal with the aftermath didn't help matters either. You could say it was cowardly of him to keep up the charade instead of telling people the truth, but didn't the game say that hopelessness can cause a monster to fall down? The people needed ressurance.
And it's important to remember that Asgore gave up on the idea of going to the surface, he and Gerson agreed the humans would just kill them. But he's too afraid to tell his kingdom, so what does Asgore do? Take the longest road possible, wait in hopes that the sixth humans never appears, and if they do appear, that they kill him. It's selfish, but the only outcome where monsterkind survives.
THANK YOU! I hate how the fandom tends to overlook/demonize Asgore yet they love Toriel, despite the horrible sh*t that Toriel has done, which she never took accountability for and the fact that Asgore basically had no choice in his actions. Not to mention, people forget that Asgore lost his kids alongside Toriel.
I mean I also hate when the opposite happens. It's a very complex issue and far from black and white on either side
@@brolytriplethreat I know, and I understand that both f*cked up, but Asgore at least had the decency to take responsibility for what he did, not to mention he had no choice. Toriel, on the other hand, never takes accountability for her terrible actions.
@RylishZaliou12 and in neutral endings where you killed enough people she gets called out on her BS and promptly exiled to ruins again.
That's why when I play Undertale I don't never choose the option of staying with her cus she don't deserve it in my opinion.
@@gaminglulunightmare6092 Fax. DR Toriel deserves her kids far more
I'd imagine Asgore has the "Tom Nook issue". He's disliked for his role, but he himself isn't bad.
At worst, both of them are complex, and at best they are nice. However, because of their role (Asgore collecting 7 souls / Tom Nook wanting you to pay back his loan), they are seen as evil. With Asgore, monsters can't live on the surface without 7 human souls to break the barrier. With Tom Nook, loans have nasty things like interest and penalties for not paying which he simply does not do. There's also the factor that the fans are immature, so they don't think about the complexities of the character.
People like Flowey get more love because of the "Crazy Redd thing". They are MEANT to be hated and hurt the player, but the player sees this as a fun challenge or charming. The Joker could kill their parents, and it will make people love the Joker all the more.
TBF in Nook's case, much of the "hate" around him is very much just players making exaggerated jokes. If there truly ARE players who call him evil and bad, it's a tiny minority.
@eggchjf It is hard to tell those are jokes and easy to confuse it as honest beliefs about the Tanuki.
taxes are worse than murder
Asgore is actually a very complex and flaws character, but unfortunately many only notice the latter. I'm glad someone (you) made an analysis about his character. (Also, I liked how Asgore was characterized in IF)
Eyy, thanks! Asgore's IF characterization definitely tries to capture his complexities and tragedies, even if he has a much smaller bodycount.
agree
Yeah! Lots of undertale characters have flaws such as Alphys (which is probably the second or third most misunderstood UT character)…Undyne..and even Toriel and Sans. It’s a shame that people only choose to pay attention to the fanon aspects of the characters rather than canon and or actually play the game for the full experience.
However thankfully the UT fandom has gotten a lot better than 2016 and doesn’t focus on the fanon aspects AS much anymore, most likely due to the fandom realizing just how toxic everything was and I’m glad it isn’t as bad as before, possibly thanks to Deltarune releasing as well.
@RylishZaliou12 True true.
I hope my game will have a less toxic fandom.
@RylishZaliou12 I get death of the author but the fact people make up a cannon and ignore what's been blatantly put into story makes newcomers develop a false impression and interpretation.
I never knew Asgore kills himself in some endings. I always figured Flowey kills him in every non-pacifist ending.
If you kill Flowey in a neutral run, and redo the Asgore fight, or a whole new neutral run, Asgore ends his own life when he's spared.
Yes, you have to kill Flowey after Omega Flowey.
Asgore seeing that humanity has committed atrocities even worse than anything he has done: 😦
I absolutely love the subtle bit of characterization in that every character who is close friends with Asgore tends to inherit aspects of his speech patterns. Even Sans uses one of his lines, the infamous beautiful day line
It really is a shame that many leave this guy in the dust. They won’t forgive him for what he’s done.
However let’s forgive every other monster that tried to kill the player and ESPECIALLY the goat women who left both her people and the player to die.
In politics , consistency is weakness. Seems the Undertale fandom finds that to be true for discourse as well.
Asgore at least has the decency to feel bad. Undyne never even apologizes for trying to kill you
yeah some of my favourite undertale stories involving these 2 are ones where toriel actually realises "wow i did leave my grieving husband at his most vulnerable point to go hide as far away as possible huh?" and they actually make up, not get back together obviously but no longer hate each other
@@connortg5 if I'm not correct one of them is growth spurt correct? I am unsure about the 2nd one though
@@windonhighnoon growth spurt yes
Glitchtale also has it happen I believe, not nearly as well as growth spurt but it happens
25:58 I've tuned out most of the discourse in the UT community, cause it's really not that surprising that a popular game has a few bad apples, but this section did actually kinda catch me off guard; if I was strapped to a chair and forced to watch this kind of misinterpretation I'd crap my pants instantly (/j)
Been really enjoying these analysis videos, there's just so much about Undertale's world to remember, and these videos are great ways to review the game! About time that Asgore gets some respect, he didn't collab with Kanye West just to become a literal scapegoat
GOD. That meme with Asgore's theme sure is something. Sucks that Kanye is such an awful person. x_x But yeah, I saw a lot of the discourse because several of my friends were wrapped up in it. Not naming names, but there was a very vocal part of the UT fan community back then that was just really, really vitriolic about certain characters and... yeah. Not fun. I believe the main person spearheading it all eventually stopped actively engaging in discourse, at least, but a lot of bad takes were made.
@@Dorked Was this person proeminent on Tumblr and/or Reddit?
Another ChristopherMoom banger
I personally really like Asgore... I remember watching a playthrough of Undertale for the first time, and being extremely curious about him from all the buildup, and when the time came to meet him, he instantly became one of my favourite characters. Yeah, he's a very complex and flawed character... honestly, that's what I really like about him. He's a tragic character, and he had to do things he himself didn't want to do to free his people.
And, as Flowey/Asriel is my absolute favourite Undertale character, it genuinely makes me sad that both him and Asgore just often get boiled down to only one part of their character, while the other parts are getting ignored. Both of them are really complex and ever since I became a fan of Undertale I started analyzing the lore about them, and the Dreemurr family as a whole, discovering a lot of things about them in the process. And you always manage to show all that in your videos. You look at all the parts of the characters and their story, and that's why I enjoy these videos so much.
And yes we need an Asgore plush. If Fangamer ever releases it I will buy it right away
I don't know how to say this in a way that doesn't acknowledge Toriel's agency in deciding she can't push past the betrayal of her loved one killing her children, but...
I really do think he's persecuted unfairly for his actions. There's an understanding that could be reached in that they were both facing horrific grief, and responded to it in different ways. It tears me up that throughout being mounted the kingdom's expectations of Asgore, and the passage of what may have been thousands of years, Toriel seemingly does not try to meet him halfway.
This is why I don't really like Toriel all that much. Her biggest flaw is that she cannot see beyond her own perspective AT ALL and in fact seemingly refuses to, even after all that time.
I think something else worth mentioning is the human children that fell. When Asgore declared war on the humans, and them falling down became the only way he would end up collecting SOULs, I don't think he expected or wanted only children to fall. But ultimately that's what ended up happening.
Also, when Asgore was in his prime, when he was with Toriel, when he wasn't ridden with regret and sadness, he might've even been stronger than sans
Hes canonically stronger than sans. He can dodge, and is talked as being capable of killing us in seconds but doesnt due to grief
actually its fully possible he was just holding back in his boss fight as well.
also, sans inst strong. he just cheats. anyone could do the things he did iff they just thought outside the box.
@@fourthmatchflamesans is strong because he can cheat and he can manipulate the numbers. He does indeed have 1 attack... per frame. Saying that he isn't strong because anyone can cheat if they learn it, is like saying that jacked people aren't strong because anyone can get jacked.
@@barnabasszoke6499 sans is also strong because of "karma" effect which is i think applies to us because we literally killed almost the whole underground, so i think if someone who doesn't have bad karma fights sans the fight would be more easier (sorry if bad grammar)
Like 80% of the main characters got stood up by the fandom but probably Asgore most of all, poor guy. He's one of my favourites. The only AU I can think of where he has any significant role (besides IF) is Underfell and he's just comically bad and it gets rid of all his nuance.
Canon Underfell does so many things right but I think Asgore's execution is disappointing. Him having poisoned Chara there is super messed up and the one thing I do not like from an otherwise solid AU.
@@Dorked I have a friend who made their own version of Underfell that changed that detail to Asgore pushing Asriel and Chara to duel for combat practice and Asriel accidentally killing Chara during a practice spar. Something like that is definitely better than Asgore poisoning a human child.
@@amberdawn868that sounds a lot better
I thought the whole point of Underfell is to be edgy and dark, what's so out of place with with him poisoning Chara?
What about Handplates comics? There his backstory is important.
Something that I love is the specific mention of the ink being still wet with "nice day today"
It sets up his character to be cheerful, yes, but it also adds to how devastating you showing up was for him.
He was a dad that I wished I'd had. He did difficult things for those whom he loved, like mine never did. Asgore will always be my favorite of the cast.
Maturing is realizing that Asgore is the most well written character in both Undertale and Deltarune.
Undertale perhaps, but DELTARUNE!?!?!?!?!?
undertale yeah but i don't feel like characters in deltarune who don't make it to the dark world can be considered well written yet since they could be completely different
wait MOST? then that's a hard disagree on both games, i love asgore but what
yeah, although in deltarune we have to wait to see it, but i think deltarune is going to be much better than undertale, in probably every aspect, so its probably that asgore has more time in the screen and would be a better written character.
Ngl. I don't know if he can beat Flowey in writing.
I believe a lot of people just side with Toriel because they met her first and got bought by her pies.
In fact the community has falsely said asgore has anger issues.
Typically the argument against Asgore is that they wouldn't react like he did to his childs death.
But like.
A: most of the people saying that have never experienced the death of their child
And
B: Eeven if they did. They're not in Asgores position as the leader of thousands of people.
It's not that they wouldn't react like asgore. They're literally not in his position to act like him
"Context? Tact? What are those?"
Asgore haters, in essence. Ridiculous.
Wouldn't most world leaders want revenge for the murder of their heir/child? I don't think going "oh well, time to do nothing about this" when your heir is murdered by another group is a realistic response.
@@thehuyto exactly my point.
Monsterkind had already been wronged by humans.
Everyday they wake up is a constant reminder of that.
Then humanity goes and kills the prince.
Asgore was already grieving, but he also had to confront the fact if did nothing. Monsters would see that as him saying, humans can continue doing what they want to them.
i side with both asgore and toriel. i dont see how ppl can hate toriel and/or asgore. Although, toriel also was in a position to lead and lost her child yet she didnt resort to violence. it was reasonable for what asgore did considering he lost so much. his kids, freedom, etc. were all lost because of the humans.
@@mysticalaces8623 I don't hate toriel. I just acknowledge that she isn't the Saint everyone thinks she is.
Look at it this way.
Yeah, she didn't resort to violence, but she also, never acted on her own plan of using one soul to leave and peacefully get the rest.
(This plan of hers is ofcourse blatantly ignoring the literal generations of persecution to monsterkind by humans, but lets stealman toriels position here)
Now sure. It may have felt wrong after the first human.
...
But what about the second?
Ok. Still feels wrong.
...
The third?
Mmmabey it's time to do something besides sit on her chair in isolation.
...
The fourth?
Ok now she's just knowingly doing nothing as children fall to their doom. When she could go, grab souls and barricade the entrance, while she peacefully gets the rest.
...
The fifth?
DO SOMETHING!!!!
...
the sixth?
Yep. Toriel has indeed stood by while six humans died.
You see my point?
Yes asgore could have done this, but he's also the one who declared war. It was out of anger sure, but he'd look like a coward and uncarring to his people.
Yeah so I know, I said I'd fight to protect you all, but... I'm over it... You know...?
It's still NOT an excuse. But we can see where he's coming from. He made a declaration in a moment of anger, but it was a declaration so important to providing hope to monsterkind, that going back on his word publicly would feel like the ultimate betrayal of his peoples faith.
Can he come up with a better plan, mabey.
He could also fuck things up even more.
So instead, asgore, procrastinated and procrastinated.
Even down to the last second, letting frisk go take care of business before starting the fight. Hoping Frisk takes the hint and just never comes back.
What's Toriels excuse?
Fear of being attacked by monsters?
She's the queen. For all her emotionally motivated propoganda about asgore being a demon. He never stopped loving her. He'd let her walk right up to him, slap him, and he'd say.
"I'm so glad to see you again"
As she walks past him. Grabs a soul and leaves the underground
Is she afraid of the humans attacking her?
Then put simply, she is a hypocrite for expecting of asgore what she herself is too scared to do.
But you know what. Those most likely aren't the reason. Because the real reason.
Is that she just can't stand the site of Asgore.
She's petty.
She's so petty, she feeds the humans lies about her Ex, that could work against them in the underground, choosing violence or self defense. Expecting the devil.
She's so petty, that she refuses to accompany the humans to asgore, to keep them safe and potentially discover an alternative salution, having 2 boss monsters, the royal scientis and a human present. (More if she did anything early enough and more fell)
She's so petty, that she won't even, ignore Asgore long enough to walk past him and save millions of lives by preventing the oncoming war.
Toriel, is guilty of inaction, while being the one in the optimal position to do something.
Now, afterall this. As I said. I don't jate Toriel.
In fact this makes her a compelling character. A far more compelling character then the flawless saint the fanbase thinks she is.
She's petty, judgemental, controlling.
All very real flaws that toriel wouldn't be Toriel without.
And that's what makes her a fan faveorite. That despite all her flaws, she's still a good person. And the fact that we met her first.
Imagine for a moment, that we met asgore first. With the knowledge, that we'd need to kill him to leave.
Without the toriel propoganda, he's A: acting in self defense, and B: fighting for his people.
He's a good person, who just happens to be in our way.
Edit: bleh that was long. I know. Sorry lol
I actually really like Asgore and is easily one of my favorite characters in Undertale, I am surprised to hear he is hated this much. I like how complex his situations are and how he doesn't always make the right decisions, but genuinely feels bad about them despite how understandable the mistakes are. He genuinely seems like a decent guy just repeatedly put in awful no-win situations from both others and his own emotionally driven making.
it does boggle my mind how people can see a game that makes its point be that no character is 100% good or bad and that and that they cannot be judged solely by their actions and that its important to empathize with them and know their needs to then take a character to shift all the blame and hatred towards, or instead get so lost in defending that character they erase their flaws and darker lore that make them so interesting. my jaw dropped when you mentioned the "asgore groomed undyne to hate humans" theory people supposedly have because that is so??? weird? like i barely have any words for that besides wow, what a misunderstanding of the themes and characters. what makes characters like undyne and asgore and flowey/asriel so awesome is that YES they all did terrible things, but despite that, we still are allowed to know them past those actions and understand their rich personalities and watch them grow. in general i will always prefer multifaceted approaches to characters than your usual fandom watering down of them.
great video!! i was EXACTLY going to maybe bring up ralsei as a possible character to analyze when you mentioned him and i was like huh!! well then!!! something to look forward to! very excited thank you :3
Ralsei is really high on the list, but it's a video where I'll definitely wanna take my time and find as much optional text as I can in addition to the videos I already have. I at least have most of the optional dummy dialogue with him recorded as I kept trolling the poor dude. xD
I love toriel and asgore but too many ppl always either bring down either character to prove that the other character is better😭 i love both cus theyre both complex and flawed and thats what undertale is about!!!
Super excited abt the sonic satam vid btw!!
To be truthful, I am at fault for doing this 😅
As someone who was once harassed incessantly by fans for having the audacity to say that sans is overrated and I was upset that he took time away from Asgore when I was a literal child back in 2015, I feel so validated by this video. I've always loved Asgore in every way someone can love a character, and he absolutely needs to get more love than he does. I remember being in absolute shambles doing his fight for the first time because in a matter of minutes Undertale made me never want to hurt this soft fluffy man who just made some very bad decisions. I could see the love, the heart, dare I say the determination in him, and when he appeals to mercy in the final moments of his life with that pained smile on his face after talking about missing his wife, I started crying, and it only got worse when Flowey took him out. Thank you for preaching to the choir about the fact that this character deserves as much love as everyone else.
I hate how the majority of the characters are boiled down to a single note when they're a lot more complex than that. Asgore the child killer/sad divorced dad. Alphys the shy wreck. Papyrus the silly skeleton who hates puns (? Where did that idea come from). Undyne's either a goof like Papyrus or just anger issues personified, no mix of the two. You get the idea :(
Also I'm glad this video discusses the Asgore vs Toriel discourse I see a lot, why do we have to pick a side? Can't they both just be good characters with flaws?
Sans the funny skeleton man and genocide guy. Toriel the goat mom. Chara the murder child. Mettaton the sexualized robot. Seriously, why is Asriel the only character allowed to be multidimensional?
Papyrus doesn’t even hate puns. He plays along with them sometimes.
@@liviwaslost He actually tells more puns than Sans, so it's truly ironic that his dislike of Sans' comedic timing was interpreted as him hating puns with a burning passion.
I agree! I love both Toriel and Asgore, they both made mistakes and reacted to a tragic event in different ways. I never understood hate against either asgore or toriel imo
@@mysticalaces8623 Yeah, like... They're two sides of the same morally complex, very much depressed coin.
I'm new to Undertale/Deltarune, as of December 2022. I was unaware of Undertale's release in 2015, and vaguely aware that it existed between 2015 through last year. I had no idea what it was or what it was about. I dunno how I managed to avoid all the spoilers.
I'm astounded by how this character, over the years, has been mischaracterized. Asgore was a father first and foremost, and I could tell that he was not happy about fighting us/Frisk in Undertale once we finally reached him. He had the responsibility of a whole kingdom on his shoulders and was working with royal scientists to try and break the barrier. When you don't have a choice, what are you supposed to do? He shows guilt, regret and remorse. He is avoidant of his responsibilities, and the morality of his choices are not lost on him. He has tough decisions he doesn't want to make.
What did Toriel do by contrast? Lied to us about how it was SO dangerous outside the door, tried to coerce us to stay without asking if that's what we wanted, and never, not once, did she pick up the phone to answer us on our travels. We disobeyed her and she either gave up on us so as to not get attached because she knew we might die, or was unhappy with our choice and punishing us. I know she did those other things because she is a parent and we are playing a child protagonist, and she just wanted to protect us. But a bit of honesty and respect would have been appreciated...
Then she has the audacity to show up again later just to have a petty argument with Asgore. If it was so dangerous to leave the ruins, and if we are lead to believe she tried to warn the other humans about the dangers before us, why didn't she take the responsibility to travel with any of the other humans to protect them? Why didn't she travel with a human herself and tried to negotiate with Asgore herself with any of the other humans? I don't know if she ever shows any remorse for never picking up the phone or letting us go alone.
My heart broke for this character, he was dealt a bad hand in both timelines in Undertale and Deltarune and his story seems to be about him trying to cope, and trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I cherish him as a character because of this; despite how unfair his life gets, he still continues to be kind and still tries to face the day.
The treatment of his character in Deltarune makes me wonder if the creators of the game hate Asgore too. 😕
Honestly, my take on DR Asgore and Toriel is that the divorce was more due to Toriel's personal issues than anything else. But Toriel refuses to talk about her issues - or anyone else's, if Kris is any indication - so she never fully explains why she was upset and wanted to separete. That's why Asgore thinks that they can work things out - because he was so happy with her, and she won't tell him what upset her, that he doesn't understand why she's so mad. And maybe there was something he was doing that was genuinely problamatic, but it'll never be worked out now because she just won't aknowlege that a problem exisists. I got this take from how she interacts with Kris, the way she only barely aknowleges that Kris isn't behaving like themself, calls it a good thing because they're acting more 'normal', and doesn't seem to want to deal with the fact that this kid is obviously miserable - if the fact she has to lock her bedroom door or Kris will ruin her stuff isn't a red flag that Kris needs help, I'm not sure what is.
I feel like Asgore is just a naturally goofy guy, and is goofy in deltarune just because he isn't depressed
For the phone bit, it is implied her phone was stolen by a dog.
@@sirthisisawendys9030 Stolen by Toby Fox himself
@@sirthisisawendys9030not implied, confirmed, if you call Toriel while in the legendary artifsct room, the text says that there's sound coming from your inventory, only when Toby is in there mind you
People often overlook how Alphys and her research strengthen Asgore's character. After killing an unknown number of humans, Asgore asked Alphys to try and find another way. He didn't want to continue. But ultimately, Alphys' research failed and he had to continue. There was no alternative. He likely did the same with Gaster, although this can't be confirmed.
Something i noticed is that humans in undertales story initiated a war and took probably thousands of monster lives just because they were afraid that monsters would steal their souls, but the moment asgore has six humans killed to free his people he is immediately demonized by the fandom, like :///
I would like to see someone talk about how much of a coward Toriel was, and that she has no highground to talk down Asgore.
She could've done the same with getting a soul and setting the monsters free, but she was too much of a coward to do it.
She could've stayed and made Asgore come back into his sense, to help her kingdom even if she completely disagreed with Asgore, but she was too much of a coward, and left.
She put the lives of hypothetical humans that she didn't even know might ever fall down Mt. Ebott over her whole kingdom. She turned her back on all of them, because she disagreed with Asgore and it took him dying for her to decide to step back up again.
And she knows all of this or at least half, she calls herself pathetic when she can't even save a single child. And she also puts responsibility on random people just like Asgore, by making Sans promise he'll protect any human that comes through, and he does it even when you kill all but one monster in a failed genocide route. And when you kill her in a neutral route she outright tells you to not let Asgore succeed, she wants Asgore to fail, she puts humanity over her own kingdom.
Don't get me wrong I love goat mommy as much as anyone, but... her hypocrisy cannot simply be ignored.
damn..
@@Riciliz Damn indeed.
@@Irreverent_Radiation yeah, damn toriel.
quite literally toriel is a joke
as in, toby fox literally made toriel as a joke on how tutorials baby the player
I remember Dorked making a video on Toriel a few months ago.
yeah, i'm surprised no one ever talks about it, i'm not a huge fan of toriel because it feels like she's kind of a traitor
i understand no one wanted to be in the situation they were in, yet it feels like toriel just gave up her duties as queen and left to live alone and pretend it wasn't happening, and it even feels like she's siding with humans most of the time
it feels like she forgets asgore is in the same situation as her, they both are trapped underground, they both lost their families, yet she acts like asgore is a horrible murderer and not someone doing what he thought he had to do as king to free his people and get closure from the loss of his children, but from how she (and parts of the fandom even more so) act like he's some heartless king who gets joy from murdering children for no reason
it's so interesting to see a more aggressive looking Asgore from the beta content you shown. I was always compelled by how nuanced he is and how much grief has influenced his decisions. It felt off putting to see an Asgore who is actually intimidating and aggressive by the nature of those sprites.
That Tumblr Ask is baffling, holy crap. With views like that how can they enjoy Undertale, let alone Toby's works in general.
The whole thing about how people give flowey a pass and hate asgore for killing the 6 humans so reminds me of the steven universe fandom and how they despise pink diamond/rose but love the other diamonds who are legit just space nazis
Poor King Fluffybuns is my personal favorite character of the game (Sans in second place and Flowey in third in case you were wondering) because of how many of his character traits clash in a believable way.
He's soft and compassionate, but every bit as fierce and powerful. He is a coward and a fool, but also the only one that was willing to spearhead the Monsters' return to the surface. He loves children, but has ended six of them to uphold his vow. He's silly and comical, but has one of the most serious and somber encounters in the entire game. People in reality don't always have actions that line up perfectly with their beliefs, and sometimes they have completely opposing attributes that don't necessarily make sense even to them. The old man with multiple lifetimes worth of mistakes and regrets, but carrying on despite everything, head lowered, towards a future he thinks will be better than what they have now, no matter how grim his actions must be... that's determination. Just because he didn't get a 2nd phase Genocide fight doesn't mean he didn't have it.
Also his theme song is amazing. I honestly have to put it AT LEAST on par with Megalovania, it's not even a contest with the rest of the soundtrack.
dorked understands the undertale characters so well
no wonder they have such a good undertale au
To be honest, I actually like Asgore a lot more than I do Toriel. I find him a much more relatable character in the sense of him genuinely wanting to do right by his people and atone for his past misdeeds (which, even then, was as a result of an extremely difficult situation he had to handle alone as a result of Toriel being a hypocrite), and he overall gets an unjustified amount of hate.
Nobody gives toriel the shit that she deserves. She abandoned her kingdom and her people in order to play house leaving her equally grieving husband to try to figure this shit out on his own and try to lead his people through the darkness. Yes, murdering six kids is horrible. You know what's also horrible? Condemning future Untold generations of monster children to be trapped in an underground World never seen the sky, all while trying to keep your dwindling endangered race from losing all symbols of Hope after having both of the heirs being killed. He was angry at the humans from murdering two of his adopted kids, and said what he said in Anger - leaving his equally angry and desperate people to latch on to that, trying to get back onto the surface. But and what the toriel do? Leave. Abandon everyone that she was responsible for. She could have been the voice of reason and empathy, but instead she got disgusted and left both the king and his kingdom to flail. She let those children die and is equally responsible because she thought playing house would be enough. You would think after the second or third time at most she would understand that shit is not working but no. Asgore May the wrong decision to try to solve the problem, but at least he was trying to solve the problem instead of running away from it like toriel did.
I might've missed a line that confirms it, but how certain is it that all six human souls in Asgore's possession belonged to children? It would be tragic odds for six children _in a row_ to have fallen, EIGHT in a row counting Chara and Frisk...
Edit: In a pre-release interview with the Escapist, Toby said several human *children* had gone to the mountain... Those odds really are tragic.
I think the most tragic thing is that at least one of them were most probably trying to end their lifes
Just truly unfortunate. The fact that *eight children* felt the need to go to that mountain where it was said that people never return...has implications for all of them, even if the motives might differ a bit.
Well, several is still pretty vague, it could still have at least 1 or 2 adults fall in, after all accidents like this can still happen when some adults climb up mountains (especially if theres a legend about MT. Ebott, which would bring a lot of attention.)
@@dylanzlol7293While *technically* true, it kind of feels like we were deliberately led towards a specific conclusion.
@@Debater we know chara went here for a really unhappy reason, but the others mught have came here because of growing curious about the legends or something.
Cool thing I noticed:
ASGORE and TORIEL share one common flaw: They underestimate how kind and understanding their people are. ASGORE chooses to continue the war and eventually commit suicide because he fears what will happen if he calls it off.
TORIEL runs away and tries to help the other humans, growing to hate her own people without understanding that the war declaration was a culmination of everyone's suffering and desparation, not just hatred and murderous intents.
Both of them could have changed their minds at any point and chose a better path, but they didn't, because they didn't understand how the others truly felt.
ASGORE is no saint, but neither is TORIEL. And neither is a bad person at heart; they're both extremely morally grey, but they deserve a chance at redemption.
I hope Rudy doesn't end up dying. I'm not sure how much more Asgore can take, what with his divorce, poverty, implied estrangement from his kids, threats of eviction, etc. Like the guy's not making perfect choices but were I in those circumstances, I doubt I'd be making perfect decisions either.
16:06 i like to think that's because by the moment toriel threw a fireball and everyone stepped in to stop the fight, asgore for the first time in a while, finally releases the heave of guilt and burden he carried on his shoulder for years. that was him allowing himself tl breathe again, and be silly again. i feel like that's relief talking over in that shift. we finally see asgore and mr dreemur visually. great analysis btw! you really put asgore's characters into well written words, i myself can't find it in myself to hate him even with the fandom's outlook on him, so this video was a great find to fully understand why.
In undertale the game constandly hypes asgore up so Toby really wanted to show he's importand. However, sadly he gets almost no screentime except for the battle. If we were able to bond more with him then he'd be a much more recognised and loved character.
Yeah, I definitely wish he had more screentime. It's a problem with Mettaton to a lesser extent, too.
@@Dorked At least most of the core was for mettaton.
However, surprisingly the low screentime treatment did NOT stop Muffet from being loved by fans! Wich is quite strange, she gets even less attention than asgore, but she isn't forgotten like him 🤔
@@Dark_Slayer3000 muffet essentially is a gimmick type character who was also made by a fan.
I imagine that they were deliberately made to have a strong and distinctive introduction with the fact that their encounter is incredibly brief in mind and also comes out of nearly nowhere.
They were a pleasant surprise as it would. They also have essentially zero ties to the rest of the cast and thus a player would have zero expectations upon meeting them.
Asgore on the other hand was hyped up for the entire game. As a monster by one of the most fan popular characters too which does not help matters. Asgore also being this broken down, sorrowful king also makes his stage presence far less charismatic, more subdued and solemn, and less immediately eye catching for people seeing him for the first time I imagine.
Like he doesn’t want to be there, which appears to be the point of his character but also makes him lack stage presence, with other more forceful characters effectively stealing the show from him when they are onscreen and him getting shoved to the side.
Undertale had an entire game beforehand with characters such as Toriel, Papyrus, sans, Undyne, Mettaton, heck even Alphys despite her sheer awkwardness manages to forcefully barge into the narrative and temporarily take some of the spotlight from mettaton.
@@fishyfishyfishy500akabs8And i think the reason why Sans is so goddanm overrated is because he makes puns, and is very memeable. Boom. Fan faveroite.
God. I hope that Deltarune‘s Asgore will see some redemption for him. He seems even more down-trodden than in the Pacifist ending encounter so far, but various theories give me hope that his sympathetic tragedy will get highlighted more in future chapters (perhaps even the very next one)…
every time i see toriel's suggestion of getting one soul, going through the barrier and then get 6 more i get mad, how is that in any way shape or form a better solution? yes maybe its faster, but its the opposite of peaceful, if anything it could make the humans come down and wipe them out for good
I suppose you could argue he could get souls from dying hospital patients or from graveyards if the souls ended up there, but it'd still require humans to trust him in the first place.
There is so much wrong with this.
First of all Asgore wanted/promised to wipe out humanity after he freed the monsters so that the humans could never threaten them again. Also after absorbing just one human soul Asriel, who was a child at the time, became so powerful that he could've easily killed all of the unspecified amounts of villagers that were armed and attacking him. So fearing the humans could somehow put the other monsters in danger if Asgore chose to attack is just unreasonable.
But most importantly: THAT WASN'T A SERIOUS SUGGESTION. Toriel didn't want him to do that. She was just pointing out how Asgore is a massive coward that wasn't actually interested in killing people or freeing monsters and that he chose to "declare war" while simultaneously hoping that the last, or any human, would never come so he wouldn't have to fullfill his promise.
Toriels point wasn't that Asgore should have killed more humans sooner, it's that he shouldn't have killed any at all because he clearly didn't want to and that he's a hypocrite.
@@tobiasbayer4866 I definitely think Toriel's words are misconstrued, as you said. Though I think Asgore's actions were entirely born of grief and he acted impulsively and angrily and came to regret it VERY fast. He could have said "I wasn't in my right state of mind," but I think there was a real risk of that outraging his people, and it's an odd situation because he's very beloved but several neutral endings show that monsters are willing to rise up against the crown. Though Toriel was also absent for so long that there's less attachment to her than Asgore, so it's hard to say if they'd treat him the same way.
I think Gerson has a better counterpoint, if anything- and hell, even Asriel, because going to the surface to take more SOULs would likely start another war unless it was done in a way where the souls were taken from dying hospital patients who consented. I think Asgore with human SOUls would be powerful- but that power would require him to commit to the promise if things went south, which is why he preferred to prolong it all, even if in the end he was getting the people's hopes up when he wasn't feeling it.
@@Dorked Yeah, I mean... they freaked out and killed Asriel over it, who was just smol babby goat boy. Now imagine how they'd respond to his much bigger burlier dad, even if we all know he's a huge pushover too... oAo
My thoughts on Asgore:
I think his battle sprite is genious!
I always thought he had this evil smile, but eventually I realized that he was looking on the ground in sadness and shame, and I love this little detail about him.
Also I went on a whole rant about his themes Bergendrückung and Asgore once, but I won't repeat it here.
Just briefly, I like how so many leitmotivs, like Heardache, Bergentrückung, and Determination, play together in Asgore, because it's a very good reflection of his character,
and that through the meaning of Bergentrückung the leitmotiv story gets even more content to it.
As you may be aware of, Bergentrückung is a german word that describes a tale of a king living in a mountain or something like that (I never heard of this tale until I played Undertale).
As a german myself, I had no idea what Bergentrückung, or simply Entrückung is supposed to mean, until I googled what exactly an Entrückung is.
Entrückung is the german word for "rapture" (I also had no idea what rapture is, so for anyone that doesn't know this either, rapture means when the people on earth are taken into heaven by an angelic force or something similar to that (It's been a while since I researched this)).
So instead of the king in the mountain, Bergentrückung literally can be translated to "mountain rapture", and I think this is a nice reflection of Undertale's story, and Asgores motivation.
Lastly I think it's genuenly disgusting how some fans handled their dislike of Asgore.
Hating a character is no excuse to harass and stalk people who may like them.
I never understood why anyone would think Asgore is evil, it's obvious that he is a genuinely good person.
Oh yeah I didn't notice how Asgore has like zero merch. You're probably right about him being controversial (I bet if he has a plush someone would probably violently shred it). Yeah, the discourse between Toriel/Asgore has turned me away from both so I hope Deltarune explores more of their familial dynamics.
If Queen in Deltarune chapter 2 is supposed to be a reflection of Noelle’s mom, then I think King is a reflection of Asgore. He’s a villain, probably because Toriel villainizes him so much, but King is clearly concerned about Lancer just like how Asgore clearly cares about Kris
I always thought King was Asgore if all that early hype Toriel put around him being an evil bloodthirsty tyrant was 100% true.
Maybe King is ruined by the fact that Susie's parents are abusive and thus she connotates parenthood with abuse, which corrupts the King as a darkner, but every positive side of the King is formed based on Kris' connotations of parenthood, and thoughts on their own father.
This is assuming that darkners and everything in the dark world is based on the lightners in said world.
been looking forward to this video! I personally haven't heard asgore talked about much at all, so it's nice to get an analysis video on him to understand more of his character.
I always knew Asgore was holding back greatly, cause I mean he lived through the war all the way through without getting hurt, that shows his power. If he wanted, he could use all his power and keep killing us until we just give up like the rest...But he doesn't. Asgore genuinely has a really sad history that makes even me sad. He is my favorite character no doubt
Okay, Toriel's idea of what Asgore should have done (it's on 13:29) may sound somewhat more practical, but. I just can't picture Asgore doing this. As much as some part of fandom likes pointing out that he's a murderer, he's actually very reluctant about it, as was said in the analysis.
It may sound paradoxical, but Asgore is too kind to do what is best for the monsters. Waiting at his home for humans to come to him themselves and fight them is one thing - it's like making it at least a little bit less painful. After all, they sort of found their way to their death themselves. It is still a heavy burden, but this he can manage. However, going through the barrier with the intent of hunting down more souls to strike down? It sounds like something that requires much more determination to kill. Something that Asgore actually lacks. Yes, he killed children. But the fact that he couldn't have done what Toriel had said he could have done just proves to me that he IS a compassionate soul who hates hurting others.
True, I mean, he never absorbed the human souls even in the genocide route (you know, where the human is running around murdering everyone) so I'm pretty sure he'd never do it until all of them are collected and the time came to break the barrier.
Even if what she meant was ask people for their souls, that's still hinging on the fact that Asgore can't be discovered by anyone that freaks out or the person he talks to goes to snitch to the pitchfork failing torches mob group of people, and gets chased back into the barrier (possibly exposing monsters to a scared mob) and possibly killed himself.
(It really just takes one bad person to bring that whole plan crashing down and the guy needs to hope that 6 people he talks to all are willing to eventually give up their soul to him and won't be like "yo this demon goat wants my soul I should probably tell someone about that and maybe not do that, that's kinda suspicious")
Toriel is weirdly trusting of humans honestly, I don't get how she thought this whole thing could work. Especially since I'm pretty sure she was in the war against humans at their worst.
@@Diamond1234 asgore didnt know you were the human in genocide.
THIS! You can literally refuse to fight until the very last moment, sacrificing your freedom but saving your life. But no, all the people WANTED to go to the surface, because that was their home (as if it wasn't also a home for monsters) and went there, knowing that they would either become killers or die.
Plus her suggested plan is literally what Asriel and Chara tried, and their plan failed MISERABLY. Asgore wouldn't do much better IMO...
YES! ASGORE DISCUSSION! the world needs more of this.
Watching these character analysis videos always feels like an eye opener to me, even if I've known a lot about the characters already, there's always stuff I've missed or stuff I didn't think about, it's always fascinating to hear more about these characters
I never viewed Asgore as a heartless murderer, because like this video beautifully paints, he's not. He's an intensely tragic character, and although he is an antagonist, I can't ever say was a villain. He's made terrible choices and many mistakes, but it just makes his more jovial Santa like demeanor all the more surprising and showing at least parts of his resilience, at least in some fashion
Watching these makes me personally wish I had done things differently when writing my own Undertale AU, Undead Tale. The Alphys one made me realize that I shafted her character and gave her so little presence when now I would absolutely give her a very prominent role, it made me rethink how I handle parts of Gaster and the DT Experiments, and this one is makes me think about how Asgore maybe would've been handled differently, though honestly, I'm still happy with how he turned out in the story
This is more of a personal tangent, I know, but I want to try and change some of these things for any potential follow ups or other AU stories I do, because I love these characters and I feel like I need to do them better next time, but there's still a lot I feel I miss out on or don't fully grasp yet. I'm not great at picking up small details, hell even with Undertales soundtrack it took me years to realize Death by Glamour has the It's Showtime! motif in it, lol, but still, I want to do these characters right in whatever I do next, and I feel these videos help me with that by giving me a fuller view and understanding of the characters
Asgore is such an underrated character.
All the sequence from where you met him to the end of his figth is by far my favorite part of undertale.
It's so silly that people say they don't like Asgore because he killed 6 kids, but William afton is an extremely popular character and how many kids did he murder?
I somewhat know fanf lore (or at least what people think the lore is) and I believe he is directly responsible for 11 (that we know of) and indirectly responsible for 2. Unlike afton,Asgore actually has an understandable reason and feels great remorse for his actions.
@@skydragonslayer9820 yeah, at least asgore killed them for the sake of his own people
I promise you the same people who think it's "pRoBLemATiC" to like Asgore are not the same people who like the purple guy
Ok but like I don't think anyone is saying William Afton is a goof person
@@OrangeBuntwhat was Williams fate in the best outcome of the games? He suffers an extremely painful death having his body punctured by a springlock suit and gets burned a ton of times while in it. All that happened to Asgore was his wife doesn't like him anymore, so I think a feeling of an undeserved happy ending contributes a lot. Not just for the killing kids but for essentially creating systematic racism in society convincing most in the underground that humans were the enemy and need to be destroyed
I didn't even realize who you really were until you mentioned Inverted Fate!!!
My genuine reaction was: A 3 second gasp followed by "OH my god, this is actually Dorked!"
I relate with Asgore’s loneliness with being divorced by Toriel. Minus him literally pulling a Darth Vader by killing 6 humans.
I didn't know there was a side of the fandom that hates Asgore that much, like, i knew there were people who didn't like him for what he did, but i didn't think people would hate him enough to make those tweets
I think that the Asgore/Anakin analogy goes a bit deeper than “kid killer”, in both cases, they were murdering children out of grief/fear of loss and ended up losing themselves and their significant others in the process, but (depending on which route you choose) they eventually end up somewhat redeeming themselves, whether that’s throwing their manipulative master into a reactor shaft, or (indirectly) helping their kingdom go free thanks to their revived son, in both cases they sacrifice themselves to save their remaining family.
Asgore and Anakin definitely have a lot more common things between them once you step back and look at them.
Obviously, the major difference is their kill count and one of their wife is still alive but hates him.
It hurts to be an Asgore fan these days
God this video was vindicating. Asgore is my favourite character in the game. Has been since I first played it. Such a compelling and tragic character who Toby Fox managed to give so many layers in so many screentime. A character whose personality is conveyed not just through dialogue but even the gameplay itself in the best boss fight in the game (I will stand by that).
And this video not only highlighted so many of the little moments that give him nuance but it is a great rundown of just how dirty he gets done. Both in the game and in the fandom.
In the fandom, Asgore is a victim of this absurd idea that liking a character is the same as condoning their actions, and that every character can be neatly sorted in good guys and bad guys. If you want proof that media literacy is a mess online, just check out Asgore discourse for 5 minutes. It was such a relief to se this video debunk the most common bad faith arguments without demonising Toriel, who is herself a great and layered character.
But you also touched on something else that bothers me. Undertake itself kind of does Asgore dirty. The Pacifist ending reduces him to a punching bag. The tragic history of the Dreemurr family is just mined for divorce jokes that rob both Asgore and Toriel of further potential character development. And as you say, he doesn’t even get much merch. It’s such a waste of one of the best characters in the game. He just gets reduced to a joke or an afterthought, and the fandom followed suit.
It’s also interesting you touch on Deltarune. Because truth be told, I don’t like how he’s written there at all. After years of seeing Asgore reduced by fans to ‘child killer’ or ‘divorced loser’, DR Asgore feels like the same flanderisation I see fans do.
You know what Asgore did in canon when he saw his wife after possibly centuries, and saw she wanted nothing to do with him? He respected her decisions and backed off. The way he’s written in DR just doesn’t feel in character to me and it’s the one thing I don’t like about the game so far. I really hope Toby Fox is building to a character arc here because this honestly bugs me. And only serves to be more fuel for the same bad faith arguments Asgore’s character has faced for years.
It’s nice to see there are people who still appreciate the complexity of Asgore’s character. So thanks for making this.
I agree completely about the sentiments on Deltarune. It was enormously disappointing to see how his characterization was handled and felt weirdly out of character.
The thing I like most about Asgore is that he at least took responsibility, even though he made bad choices. He puts his people first and acted like a king. Toriel on the other hand seems fine with her people living trapped underground for eternity so long as no children are killed. The children dying was tragic, but their entire civilization is in danger. Toriel makes no effort to solve this in any way. She hides in the ruins and ignores the problem. I see Toriel as far more selfish than Asgore but the fandom acts like Asgore is the spawn of Satan while Toriel is an angel and a perfect mother. I wish people would hold Toriel accountable.
IMO Asgore is understandable. entire race took everything from you, TWICE, wouldn't YOU want to kill them all? i can't be only one who doesn't like violence too much but deeply wishes to get revenge on some people.
Can I?
Thank you.
Yes. Most people would feel a lifelong hatred against those that killed their precious family. Anyone that claims otherwise is either some kind of Buddha or someone who never loved their family to begin with.
The way Asgore handles it is.. not morally better but certainly different than most people. Because despite feeling justified for his actions by this sort of grief, he still aknowledges himself as a monster undeserving of mercy and accepts his own death as much he dishes out anyone elses.
This is best proven when he refuses your mercy and kills himself so you, the human player, could go out to the surface and MAYBE figure out a way to save the monsters he couldn't.
in this way, I don't think he is truly evil, a REAL monster would never have this kind of conscience for those they deem an enemy. It wouldn't even occur to them.
Ever since undertale first came out, i was immediately interested in asgore
The playthroughs, how he acted, his tragic backstory, i absolutely loved his character
It's absolutely shocking to me how people will hate on a video game character as much as they did
honestly, i have always really liked asgore. i love how he was foreshadowed as menacing and scary and brutal, and how several times on your way to New Home to fight him, you hear so much contradicting the scary image of him, and then how you meet him and get to see that he is indeed a really friendly guy who really doesnt want to fight you, but that he still can be scary and menacing when he has to be. i always hoped that him and toriel would get back together, because i honestly think that everything you hear about their relationship in undertale is just so adorable and it's sad that so much trauma at once made that entire relationship null. i think part of why i like asgore so much too is that the very friendly and gentle giant image, and how he really doesnt like conflict, reminds me a lot of my dad, so i kinda see him in asgore in some way, even if he hasnt done any of the horrible shit asgore did lol. it just makes me sad to see asgore being so hated, he deserves more compassion.
I think the big reason Asgore struggles being liked is he never stands up for himself. And this is coming from an Asgore fan. No matter how anti-toxic you think you are, most people have an instinct to look down on weakness. Specially if it's in a big strong male.
Contrast this with Jevil or Spamton. Jevil is a Nihilist who is willing to murder three strangers trying to set him free and probably would do the same to anyone else. Spamton in Snowgrave gives you the Throne Ring knowing you'll do evil with it and is fine with that if he gets what he wants. You could maybe argue insanity for them. But there's also the popular headcanon (if less common these days) of Chara as a psycho child who only loves knives and violence. All three of them get far more love despite being far happier about killing.
If Toby Fox let Asgore do something cool or get an actual win or just stand up for himself it would shift public opinion on him a lot . But it feels like he's stuck in the comedy divorced dad role
Exactly. And whats worse nobody else defends Asgore after you meet him. As the video points out, Undyne should have defended Asgore after being barated by Toriel. Instead he is turned into the center of a joke. This serves as a good life lession, no matter how well intentioned you think others are defend yourself or you will get trampled.
Chara is not evil they are similar to noelle, you manipulate both to become "stronger" although chara might be more depressed and a little more evil than noelle
Fuck you bc I interpreted “doing something cool” as asgore doing a sick ass kickflip
Media literacy and non-bias is a rarity in many communities. I feel really bad for Asgore.
Toriel be like "Itd have been much better if you did the other six murders where we couldnt see you do it" and acts like its a justification
I still don't get why Toriel gets all the love of the fanbase, despite basically being just as bad. In a state of where the entire emotional state of the land in flux, and they desperately look to their leaders, toriel ran away, betraying her responsibilities as well as her husband. She made no attempt to stop Asgore from declaring vengeance. She sent six children who she KNEW would be killed to their deaths, and her solution to the 7th, was to deny her kind any salvation, in order to save a child she literally just met. In my incredibly outspoken opinion, Toriel is worse than Asgore.
It gets to me that he has that kind of hatred on him. Usually felt bad when it gets the short end of the stick in the situations he was put in officially even if talking it out is not an option anymore.
Even in Deltarune I hope he gets good foreclosure on his situation as well as merch stuff, even if a plush makes him look like a cuddly dork.
But after this video making me think of him more, I just want give him a big hug for what he goes through in the end of the day for his people and blind anger like the sad big fluffy goat dad pillow he is.
One thing about Deltarune Asgore not respecting boundaries like the Undertale Asgore does. When I first saw it, I interpreted it as him not believing it was his fault entirely.
In Undertale he knew it was his fault. He's the one who made that impulsive decision to wage a war against humanity. He completely understands why Toriel was disgusted. That's why he's more easily accepting her decision, even if it hurts him a lot, because he knows that those are the consequences of his actions, and he can only blame himself.
We don't know what happened in Deltarune, but it feels like whatever it was that split them apart, maybe it wasn't entirely Asgore's fault, maybe he doesn't realize it or maybe something else. It's jsut speculation, but sometihng very interesting I've noticed about keeping boundaries.
As it's even the same case with real life people. We subconsciously respect others boundaries more when we are at fault for making them have them.
I really like SuperEyepatchWolf’s description of Asgore’s theme music
“The frantic but reluctant Bergentrückung, […] the sound of a good person trying to convince himself to do something awful for what he believes is the greater good.” (He’s also notably the only character with the ‘determination’ motif in his character theme)
That’s imo the most accurate description of him. He’s such a dad, being a dad is like, ingrained in the dna of his character, but he’s ended up in positions where his easygoing nature is unhelpful and maybe detrimental in solving the problems before him, which sucks :(
Stellar video. Asgore's always been my favourite Undertale character, and so it's very good to see such a well researched analysis on him. I've always found his complexity and flaws fascinating, and that just puts him above the rest for me; I realise that's not everyone's cup of tea, but I would hope that people are more civil about that. I just hope I can get a fangamer shirt for the big guy one day.
Asgore is one of my favorites and it's sad he gets so much disrespect.
While him barely appearing in Undertale made his presence all the more impactful,I can only hope he gets more screentime in Deltarune,whether being connected to Kris or anything really.
Yeah, I'm hoping Deltarune does right by him. I was a bit disappointed with how... uncomfortable he behaved in Chapter 2 and I really hope Toby has a good payoff for that.
@Dorked I agree that it was uncomfortable, but I definitely believe that is the point.
I so happy that asgore is gaining appreciation. I don't see a lot of fanart and fan comic that do more of him. Don't get me wrong he got some cool moments in the fandom, but I feel like still lacking. Oh and by the way I will love an analysis of frisk. That going to be hard because we don't know much about frisk. But there some interesting stuff about them.
I would say, for the longest time, I've seen Asgore perceived by the fandom as a severe case of Ron the death eater in the community. Ron the death eater is a ymmv (your mass may varied) trope that describe the character to be overly demonized by the fandom for various of reasons from their actions. But mostly for shipping purposes.
Soriel shippers bashing on Asgore is a major reason why I don't like that ship (the other reason being that I dont see them as romantic, only friends)
When it's for shipping it's called die for our ship I think