HOW TO FIX: EBAY PONTIAC TROPHY 4 CYL (1/2 A GTO 389). N0 COMPRESSION, RICHIE REBUILD, WILL IT RUN?
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- Опубликовано: 27 авг 2024
- HOW TO FIX LOW COMPRESSION. DIY RIDGE REAMER. THE OTHER GUYS PONTIAC TROPHY 4 CYLINDER. I BOUGHT A 1961 PONTIAC TROPHY 4 CYLINDER-IT DOESN'T RUN! CAN I FIX IT FOR THE DYNO? WHAT HAPPENS WEHN YOU HAVE NO COMPRESSION? TIME TO TAKE OUT THE BALL HONE AND VALVE GRINDING COMPOUND! WHAT ABOUT THE RIDGE AT THE TOP OF THE BORE? HOW TO USE A DIY RIDGE REAMER-AKA FLAPPER WHEEL! HOW TO LAP VALVES. CHECK OUT THIS VIDEO ON HOW TO GET A PONTIAC TROPHY 4 CYLINDER RUNNING FOR THE DYNO.
A trophy 4, I never would have thought I'd see such a high quality project on this oddball. Fantastic
You could almost call it a "Slant 4"!!!
I was stuck in a small town in Pennsylvania, just near the Ohio boarder. My 62 Tempest was overheating big time and when i took the car to my brother-in-laws' garage, found that my slant 4 engine, had a cracked engine head. I needed to be back in Cleveland for my job on Monday and had no idea where i was going to get an engine head on a Sunday.
My brother-in-law "Joe" called a friend, who came over with an engine head off the right side of a GTO. The ONLY thing that didn't match up was the intake valves, which were about twice the size of the ones that were on my engine head. All the water and oil ports, bolt holes and all, matched up perfectly. Joe put it all together and we had a rough time keeping it running until he had the carburetor jets almost completely open. It started and ran BEAUTIFULLY!! All of a sudden..... i had a race car.
I did some street racing with it once and blew away a ford "289". When it was finally starting to rust away, i sold it to a friend. He put the engine into a midget racer and took some trophies with it.
So if your looking to make a race car out of your slant 4 Tempest........
P.S. You'll burn an awful lot of gas though..... quickly. Ha ha ha
ALL OF THE V8 HEADS WILL BOLT ON-BUT HEADS ALONE WON'T GIVE IT ENOUGH CAM OR INTAKE TO REALLY MAKE IT A RACE MOTOR
@@richardholdener1727 Worked for me. :-)
I always thought I was the most frugal man on the planet. But DAMN,. I am humbled. A rings and gasket rebuild and good for another 100 thousand.
Hi. they made 2 versions of that motor , one with 8.6cr the other with 10.25 cr. The 8.6 motor only makes 110 hp@3800 190ft/lbs @2000 so it must have a super mild cam. maybe that is the one you got. Your only off by like 10 hp. Got the specs from old motors manual. P.S. You've saved me crap loads of time on my dyno, instead of testing stuff I can just watch you do it, Thanks!
My great grandparents last car that they could drive was a Tempest Lemans.
It had this engine and the transaxle.
It was parked in the barn at their house for couple decades, then the farm was sold.
First time I ever seen a dead car resurrected was when my dad and uncles showed up, got that old car running and it loaded itself onto a trailer to go to another barn.
I was a small child, but still remember them explaining it was half a V8, trans in the back and a flexible driveshaft.
Personally I blame squirrels
You may be on to something.
The standard 2bbl 389 in the 1962 full size Pontiac was rated at 215 HP at 3,600 rpm. The cam is obviously very mild, not much duration if it's only making power to 3,600 rpm factory new. It seems you are pretty close what you might expect with a 100,000 mile motor and half the displacement.
My thoughts exactly.
Cam could be wiped too!
Yes i agree, you are expecting way too much of this engine. try running 1500 - 4000 and see what the curve looks like.
I'd like to see it with a better head off a 389, maybe even some 389 flat top pistons and an 068 or similar mild factory performance cam. I know the H.O. Racing guys built one or two back in the 80's just for fun using a Ram Air IV head and some kind of custom intake. I think they made close to 300hp if I remember right but I'm getting old so it might not have bee that good.
@@BuzzLOLOL No, you haven't looked. I can find no 2bbl V8 of the 60s rated at 3600 but the Pontiac My 68 Plymouth 383 2bbl rated at 4,400, the 62 Olds 394 2bbl rated at 4,400, 66 Ford 390 2bbl 4,400. Every engine I looked up rated at 4200 or more.
Until this week, I had never heard of the Pontiac Trophy Engine! And I'm 65! Oi Vey!!!!
Interesting as hell!!! On one of these vids, there's a Tempest with a license Plate "HALF V8"!!
Richard seems like the Best Beer Buddy ever!!
the points are likely "floating"- usually caused by insufficient spring tension in the points assembly (in this case new does not always mean good) or distributor housing bushing/ shaft wear (instead of the rubbing block pushing on the lobes and opening the points, it simply pushes the shaft, and the lobe, away from the points) I have seen both happen, and on one occasion, both in the same distributor. Same result, would not rev past 3500-4k.
A HEI distributor will likely fix the issue.
Always wanted to recreate one of these using a SBC, and use a supercharger where the left bank/ head would've sat. Dunno what I would put it in, but it would definitely be a fun project.
Giving the distributor a good once through may indeed improve matters.
I like your assessment. Also that would be such a cool build.
I wonder if the mechanical advance is stuck
Makes a guy wonder if some of the early 4 banger hei couldn't be made to work? If not it would be easy to take a vortec distributor and modify for cam sync, then just run a crank trigger on it. I suspect the valve springs and intake are what's holding it back like that.
There's a company out around Kansas that modifys the deck of the gm 4 cylinders to accept a sbc head. Chad speier racing has info on the setup, he ran one for a while.
Approved: Master Certified Razor Blade Rebuilder here.
certified!
Pertronix electronic ignition conversion, the base timing per the Pontiac spec is 6 degrees which I believe is the top groove on the balancer. There were two heads on these, the one barrel cars were 8.5:1, the factory 4 barrel cars were 10:1. The factory exhaust manifold is very restrictive. A ram air style exhaust manifold with a 2.5” exhaust really helps. Try to locate a factory 4 barrel intake. This will also help. When I built mine, I put the smaller combustion chamber head on it, 4 barrel intake and converted it to efi using the sniper setup.
I wish Mickey Thompson were still around.
The nylon timing gear and spring loads. They are gonna be more critical on a 195 cube big Four. You know, a 185 cubic inch GMC 4/71 Blown version of the Trophy 4 did a Bonneville return at a 232 MPH pass in the 1961 Pumpkin Seed with Bill Burke; it didn't have forged rods and it blew apart on the last pass. As long as it's not making over 280 HP for minutes on end like that version was, you should be all good for some fun dyno time. Best wishes 🥝✔️
I was just a little fella' when my Dad told me what the deal with indestructible engines like Slant Sixes and Industrial Hemis was - "they just can't make enough power to hurt themselves. If you keep air and oil filters on 'em and keep 'em full of coolant and oil it's impossible to screw one up so bad I can't fix it."
The man bought two '66 Toyota Coronas for my sisters after one test drive. "It torqued up pretty good and scooted across across an intersection, shifted gears and marched right up to 50 mph - and then just about quit accelerating."
The 4 cylinder didn't use a nylon timing gear though. Pontiac actually installed the strongest timing chain they ever made from the factory on the 4 cylinder engines because the standard ones were prone to failure due to the extreme vibration. An old racer's trick for a cheap heavy duty timing chain was to get a 4 cylinder replacement.
@@1967davethewave I can vouch for that - I had heard it but never done it.
PS - Gotta love the ol' racers - there's a will there's a way, lol.
@@1967davethewave I do not know if it was nylon or not but it was certainly not metal at least on a 64-tempest. My father had one that went about every 40,000 miles. They made 4 versions of the motor with various compression ratios and carburetor configurations.
With that original ring gap I now suggest you test the motor on 40 psi of boost
Use flat 389 flat top pistons over bore size .030 over, make sure the block is Sq.
Regrind you cam to ram air 3 cam specs, ram air 3 valve springs, retainers and rollers rockers, and some stainless stem down values,
Get a new pontiac head casting # 928 this is a V8 head, or Use a edelbrock, pontiac head, and aluminum 4 bbl intake manifold,
Find a windage tray and crank scrapers and hp oil pan. Hi volume oil pump,
And good hp header, estimated, hp 200 to 300 hp, if done right.
Good luck, Sir
This 4 banger is actually kinda cool idea using half of a v8 with same parts.
Mercruiser did similar things with half of a Ford 460 big block making a 3.8L 4 cyl for marine applications
It would have been better to make a V8 with parts from two 4 bangers.
@@madmod i didn't know that, cool
@@fascistpedant758 probably
@@fascistpedant758 This is being done today too. The hayabusa v8 engine was two watercooled bike engines connected at the crankcase.
To make Pontiac valve train adjustable you used to buy hardened flat washers from GM and swap on SBC rocker nuts.
Richard, I'd definitely change the valve springs AND the timing chain.
Echo this.
Perhaps check or replace the hydraulic lifters, Im willing to bet a gallon of gas, there are 2-3 of those not pumping up properly and short-stroking their corresponding valves....
Richard, I looked up the factory camshaft and valve spring specs from the 1961 AMA passenger car specifications package that Pontiac prepared. It is a teeny, tiny, baby cam. The valve spring seat pressure is 83 lbs @ 1.52", open pressure is 174 lbs @ 1.19". Cam specs are: Intake: Opens at 14 deg. BTC, Closes 58 deg. ABC, gross Duration is 252 deg. Max intake valve lift is 0.330".
Exhaust: Opens at 48 deg. BBC, Closes 24 deg ATC, gross duration is 252 deg. Gross Overlap is 38 deg. Max Exhaust valve lift is 0.330". The base 110hp Trophy 4 195 uses the same cam specs as the base 215hp 389 2 bbl engine. Interesting fact is that the high compression (10.25:1 cr) Trophy 4 used dual valve springs with a larger cam.
C.J. ................Great info .........specs are really flat ..........you have almost 50 ci to feed per.......interested to see what the crossflow cly.head will do on a inline ?????
Great to see exactly what most of us do in the shed 😉
Pontiac Blue engine enamel in a rattle can...I just painted up a 3100 in a 95 Pontiac Grand Prix. It's like sky blue with a touch of silver. Beautiful color.
Pontiac Blue engine enamel is known to produce a 20 HP increase on a 389, so maybe half that with this engine.
Looking at everyone else's research efforts and seeing those dished pistons, I have to agree with 'em.... the issue here is native configuration. You're getting what it got, minus the age cut.
The bore is probably
.010 over stock
Distributor is wore out
the timing chain is slapping the inside of the timing cover from slack but i would take that intake and cut it open and weld a 2 barrel flange to it to test
Mickey Thompson had a passion for those engines. He set land speed records with several different variants including a Trophy 4 cut in half and made a 2 cylinder. Since they used a 389 crank with bob weights for the missing rods, I wondered about using a stroker crank. Might be fun to try.
I didn't think they used the same crankshaft in the trophy 4 as the 389, unless you are talking about the one Mickey Thompson used
The stock Trophy 4 had a completely different crankshaft than a 389.
I hope you'll check compression. A leak-down test is nice for some things, but it'll pass a leak-down test with no pushrods or rockers (or airflow).
Built-up crap or corrosion in the lifters could prevent the valves from seating properly at running speeds.
For under $1000 you can get a budget scope with an in cylinder pressure transducer and a spark voltage probe. You could reliably diagnose valve timing, compression, AFR, and spark problems. Test, don't guess.
I have built quit a few life-critical SI engines. The method I developed hinges on the fact that the combustion chamber has to have maximum integrity, the ignition has to have maximum voltage and milijoules - and then and only then can the fuel system be adjusted for "the sweet spot" between too lean and too rich.
Remove all spark plugs except one. Put a good-sized bar on the crankshaft and see if you can make it go over TDC compression. The engine's propeller works fine. You should perform this a couple thousand times on known good cylinders. The object is to turn the engine backwards (yes I know) to simulate the same force normally driving the crank. Simply bar the engine about halfway back up it's power stroke and hold it there. Or you can bounce it a little. Perfection is when you can hang a weight on the end of the bar, go home - and come back without it creeping down. I've seen that exactly once. Normally just keeping a good amount of reverse torque on it by hand bouncing a little bit and if it hasn't gone very far in ten seconds - it's good.
Remove that plug and put one in the next hole in the firing order and test that one. The problem with leakdown testers is that YOU ABSOLUTELY MUST have the manufacturer's recommended tester and their specifications for orifice size and regulated air pressure input. If you don't have those you are kidding yourself. The FAA has mandated that for engines over 1000 cubic inches it must use 100 psi regulated input pressure, a 0.080" input orifice > and the resulting cylinder pressure must not be below 80psi.
For nearly all SI engines it happens that there is an air gap specification that the spark must jump without fail. It is usually 10X the spark plug gap but not always. When possible on an engine I like to put it's magneto or distributor on a test stand (hey a drill works too) with a spark gap for each wire. Nowadays I don't suppose there would be an alternative to rigging a belt drive to the crankshaft and motoring the entire engine for a minute or two with it's coil-on-plug coils holding space heater spark plugs set to 10Xgap.
The idea is to crank it much faster than the starter can and for enough time for a really rotten component to quit working.
You should do this test on known good working engines so you are experienced in the sound intensity of the sparks. It was common in the early days of outboard and motorcycle Capacitive ignitions for something to fail (?) and while the spark would jump quite a wide gap it either lacked enough mJ's to actually ignite the mixture or the multi-strike feature had crapped out.
IMO you can't let people be locked in a building with a running propane engine, or be allowed to fly over populated areas or far offshore, or far out of sight of shore until you have tested the compression and ignition in these or similar fashion. IMO if you are using a tester of some kind and do not understand how it works in scope and detail - you are hopelessly lost. These two things are a Big Deal. If you got them +valve and ignition timing sorted - then any remaining problem HAS TO BE fuel related.
My two dollars worth...
I passed the California driving test on my 16th birthday thanks to the Trophy 4.
Happy birthday!
Years ago when I built one, I bored it used std 400 pistons, put a 48 head on it, used the 4bbl intake and carb, and the passenger side hooker header from a 64 gto.
When you were turning it over with the valve cover off the rockers were barely moving so I'm guessing worn cam and probably a couple collapsed lifters but even if you replace them I don't think that your going to gain a lot of power I'm guessing that it's the 110hp version of that motor
Mercruiser did this with a 460 engine. Be cool to see how the little 3.9 engine does on the Dyno.
Yes! Merc block etc but stock 460 head, four barrel Rochester. 190hp.
Aluminum block by the way.
@@jimrudolph1582 I'm building one right now to swap into my honda. Hx35 turbo and efi.
I had a 3.7l mercruiser in my 1985 Thompson Cutlass boat [18.5ft]. Kinda hard to seal the front cover but not a bad 4 banger. Yes had a 460 big valve head on it and large 460 pistons.
Mine was a 170 hp 2 bbl model not the available 4 bbl 190hp model. Stil used quite a bit of fuel.
With a Boss 427 head that would be cool.
My guess would be a stretched timing chain but you would see that when you were adjusting the timing, low compression maybe, those things probably had 7.5:1 who knows, cool project though interesting to see how it progresses and what you do to it for more power
Officially its 8.6 to 1 but that's really close if tolerances stack up
@@BuzzLOLOL the high compression ones and all later ones had flat tops
I’m patiently waiting for the next video on this to drop to see what Richard did, I know he did a livestream on it but who has time to watch a 100 minute video lol
My money is on timing being off a tooth or so. I’d do a compression check to see what it’s making but that kind of loss I’d be willing to bet the valves aren’t opening and closing when they should be.
You need to change the cam timing chain and gears. The engine probably skipped a tooth off due to the slack on the chain from old age.
Great home rebuilding tips in this video
The thing was slightly better than a boat anchor when it left the factory. No one short of CAT or John Deere ever made a 4 banger with that much displacement. The vibration was horrendous from what I've read. Nonetheless, I reckon it's an interesting project. Thanks for the video!!
Richard, when I was watching you live I thought it was lacking fuel and air, that's why I said get a different cam. I didn't notice the intake. Try a V8 intake, maybe a single plane, and block off the driver side. I think the numbers will jump up. Also, I know you tried it, but I always set the valve lash to 1/4 turn, when engine is running, on a hydraulic flat tappet cam. I also only use polylocks.
Lol @ block off the driver’s side of the intake, why not? It should work
This was a great video. Loved watching the richie razor blade rebuild I approve of the method! I especially liked how you ground the valves in, that’s exactly what I do when I pull apart an old beat up motor, grind em in with the drill. My buddies talk mess for me doing that but it works haha! The way it looked on the graph I’m thinking probably valve springs. I think with the miles on it this would make sense that they have become fatigued. 👍👍
We used to call it something else; we called it "lapping" the valves. There used to be a tool with a rubber suction cup on the end of a wooden dowel; the suction cup would adhere to the face of the valve and the lapping compound would be applied to the port and the valve contact points. The valves would be lapped when the user rotated the wooden handle of the valve lapping tool to and fro.
Grinding valves was an entirely different operation. Done when doing a head job.
בס'ד
@@KelikakuCoutin I understand what you’re saying. When I’m saying grinding here I used that in particular because I’m referencing lapping aggressively with the drill to the point where you’re actually removing significant material off the valve mating surface and the seat like a 1 angle valve grind if you will and I will 😄 rather than just lightly lapping to mate them. I’ve done this when I’ve had really pitted valves and no money or time for fresh ones or a valve jobby. I attach the drill to the wooden dowel suction cup deal and let it eat until it grinds all the pitting flat.
I'd start with basics like cam timing. Beyond that I'm thinking ignition. I didn't know this engine existed. Very cool.
Really cool engine Rich, like most of us (I think) we have never seen this engine before. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE run this thing with a TURBO. "Everything is better with boost."
Looked up. Pontiac Trophy 4 review. I found Nov 9, 2021The Trophy 4 was offered in five different horsepower ratings for 1961, from 110 hp (one-barrel carburetor, 8.6:1 compression ratio, regular fuel) to 155 hp (four-barrel carb, 10.25:1 CR, premium fuel.) For 1962-63, there was a four-barrel, high-compression package with 166 hp at 4800 rpm, but that would be the end of the line.
I actually will admit to having owned one of these in a 63 4 door tempest. Powerglide. I bought it running and driving in 1980 ( unsafe however 🙃!) For $100 and drove till my broken wrist healed so I could change the blown head gasket on my 240z. It never let me down!
It sounds like a tractor engine. I would check the timing chain, gears and cam timing.Also make sure the lifters are pumped up.
As a Machinist I'll give you a few pointers never use your ridge rimmer on engine you'll ruin the bore to get a piston out that has a big ridge all you got to do is jiggle it out not Hammer now jiggle it out next thing is this anything that can catch your fingernail definitely needs to be bored now if you're just honing a engine that has a decent cylinder use the knocker loose spray in the spray can you know the stuff that don't smell that great it works really good like honing oil the knocker loose Soviet type in the can for getting bolts loose and I'll add one more when you're trying to get a bolt or not that's really stuck and you want to use to knock or lose hey use paraffin wax it doesn't burn off but keeps the threads lubricated.
I got my drivers license in a Tempest wagon,with that motor. Late 1960's at the age of 15 1/2
these Richie rebuilds are awesome! You should do some more!
single wenzler head, 4 side draft webbers, a richie plenum and gt25. that would be cool.
gt35
I would check the camshaft, see if the lobes are going flat.
It’s flat. Don’t even need to check
We happen to have a 4cyl. Its residing in a 63 four door tempest. has the Rope driveshft and a three speed transaxle. One bbl carb. Never even tried to get it running.
Intake manifold change also 1.8 roker arm and need headers if the haif v8 engine upgrade the camshaft
I owned one of this in a 1963 Tempest Wagon with a powerglide transmission. It was a dog and got around 14-17 MPG. In the stock configuration they just won't rev. If you want to make this thing go fast, it will need a high output 389 head (333 HP) a better intake manifold and a cam. The holly 4412XP is way too much carb for this engine. You will be lucky to pull 350 CFM. Good luck and great entertainment.
I had a Tempest with the Trophy motor. Dang engine vibrated like cousin Amy's personal assistant.
Cool to see 4 cyl in the show
This was a good video. Never heard of one of those engines. The whole process was fun
"wrong cam" shirt may be finally on the money!
Also 2 into 1 carb adapter looks like bad juju to me.
The other guys are right, only 110hp at 3800rpm and 190ft*lb at 2000rpm. You're probably getting all what the tired girl has to give. That big 4 cylinder has alot of imbalance, can you make a cam so mild that it acts as a governor and not to let it rev to keep it from shaking itself apart?
They actually took a 389 and removed the valves and drilled holes in the pistons of one bank just to if it would run. It did and they drove it like that to prove the concept. Crazy story.
the firing order would be all wrong like that-but it might run
It didn't run well I assume. That was the story I heard. I assume what they meant was they skipped every other piston in the firing order. It would have sounded terrible that way as well. Lots of luck with the trophy.
I'd guess that It's a combination of a worn timing chain, low compression, and a bad tune. You can't get the distributor timing right with a cam that's being spun with a sloppy chain. I bet you got 20° of play in that timing chain.
I'm with Rob Oly - my first thought was 'yup, that's about right.' I'd also take a look at the size of the single hole in that intake manifold (if I saw it correctly).....
If i recall there were 3 options. A 1 bbl, 2 bbl, and 4 bbl intake and hotter cam options. Ypu probably just have the least powerful option created with economy in mind more than power with that single barrel intake. Being that the ford 170 i6 from the same years makes 101hp you're probably seeing an accurate power rating.
Oh, Richard, that .125 ring gap was with new standard rings I just thought I'd add that to my first comment!
You are likely losing ring seal due to excessive bore taper at "higher RPM" the rings are having trouble maintaining contact with the bore.
My first car 61 tempest. Auto transaxle. Dad bought it not running for me (age 14) to learn on. Never did run because I was working on my 64 barracuda V8
I love this motor! Would be super cool in a flat fender Jeep.
That ring ridge on those cylinders should have given it away that the block is really wore out and needs bore out. If you use a micrometer on the cylinders you will see they are tapered causing the bad dyno run. Rebuild the block with 60 over flat top pistons. Upgrade the cam. Use oil with zinc when breaking in the cam or expect to round it out. Would love to see it making at least 200hp but I doubt that intake will make it happen.
Yup, she wo'out. Needs a visit to the machine shop. Back in that engine's day machine shop's boring bar stayed busy. Cast iron bores were short life.
We had a new 61 tempest wagon with that motor and the power gliderport transaxle. Rear end was alway noisy. My dad took it to the dealer several times. They never could fix it. It was gutless always down shifting to low when driving in the mountains.
I would say new distributor, timing chain,get the cam lobes . I don't remember the motor shaking at high Rpms.
My guess would be camshaft related. I can only imagine after seeing the ring gap and ridge in the bore what the camshaft looks like. Maybe the timing is off on the cam. Still looks like valve train takes a crap too early regardless of seat pressure. I’m sure valve spring technology back then had no good way to account for harmonics either. Also I looked up a trophy 4 peak hp is at 3800 rpm.
I could be wrong, but... judging by the size of the cap, the internals, cap and rotor for the distributor on an American Chevette gasoline engine should bolt-onto one meant for any V-8... including those for Pontiac models.
Also: I think a proper rebuild might be in order. Bore it 'til the taper is gone, Richard!
WD, dingle balls, and razor blades! I’m in
I couldn't say for sure but the cam could be the issue, but I'd love to see the thing with a aftermarket head a 4 barrel intake and a tube header and some compression what power that thing could make.
I’d love to have this engine
I'm impressed you got 95hp out of it. Considering the 389 only makes 215hp, and brand new the trophy 4 only makes 110hp.
The Four Barrel option makes 150 hp
95 HP would be perfectly normal for that engine. I had three of those Tempests back in the day. The 1bbl intake is choking it. Find a factory 4bbl intake and carb and that will liven it up.
Color me jealous you have found my unicorn engine I've wanted to play with for years.
Solid solid roller cam and lifter. Ignition mods
Mickey Thompson used to built this 4 cyl. Engines with a supercharger n run it at the salt flats...
There were many versions of those engines, basically there were low and high compression and different carbs up to 4 bbl. I believe factory gross ratings were from 110 to 166 I believe.
Those engines had really poor balance so timing chains tend to stretch which really retards valve and spark timing.
Would of been neat if they continued making this engine. Would of been cool in a Fiero.
Its a 110 or 115hp (gross, without the water pump) engine that is sixty years old and is already worn out once and its only down like 10hp and 20ft lbs?
I think its probably doing what it does.
1963 Pontiac tempest trophy 4, 1963 corvair spyder turbo. Same company, if only they had thought of it. Could have had a factory turbo 4 with a transaxle.
How about an efi conversion with more aggressive cams and see how much power you can squeeze out of it 😁
These are numbers I'd expect from Nick's Garage if you gave him Randi Lyn Shipp's D/SA 400 to start with.
It may be cam timing. But since you know someone has been into the bottom end as a last resort check the stroke. It should be 3.750 not 3.560. That would put you down in the cylinder .190. That's Briggs and Stratton compression zone.
I had no idea this engine even existed. It would be sick to put in a rat rod and make the other side look like a broken block with rods hanging out. 😉
You have got to be the brother I never knew I had, lol.
@@patrickshaw8595 you never know lol!
@@bobross07 Yeah Dad got around in his younger years. He specifically told me never to go to France or Germany and have sex with anyone. lol.
@@patrickshaw8595 haha that is awesome 🤣🤣
@@bobross07 He also told me if I went there and met anybody who sort of looked like my brothers and sisters I should be real kind and nice to them.
I vote new timing chain and distributor, Also would love to see what it does if you just threw one of those speedmaster heads on it...
Would put a fresh timing chain and gears on it. HEI distributor also. Sad thing is there are probably no true 2 bbl intakes available for it as it would be cool to see a build on that engine as its unique and shares many parts with the V8 Ponchos
Theoretically you could modify a Pontiac 389 intake to mount to it that would get it to a 2/4 barrel setup.
There is factory 4bbl intakes
Will a 389 camshaft fit the block?
Yes but the firing order is wrong. Some guys have used a 389 crank and gone the 90° crank route but there really isnt a good source for.cams for these engines.
That is a cool engine. A slant 4. I want one..lol
Cam is wiped out.
Camshaft was probably very mild when brand new and maybe slightly wiped
Check the valve guides, tension of the valve springs . That’s my $0.02
It's a shame Pontiac never made a long runner cross ram like Chrysler did in the early 60's. Wouldn't this be totally cool with half of one bolted to it!!!!
This would be cool with a gt35. You'll be "the only kid on the block" with one.
Very-nice, Richard...! Now, since you're doing Pontiac 4-cyl. performance... how about doing a "Iron Duke" build, including/especially one utilizing the the GM "waste-spark" DIS? The same system (cast-on crankshaft trigger wheel & all) was used on the OHV 1.8/2.0/2.2L, and got multi-port EFI in '92... which became sequential with the OBD-II system in '98! Heck... look in the right marine and fork-lift catalogs, and you can even build a 3.0L stroker version!! Imagine that combo, with a custom grind for the factory roller-cam setup, a "choice" aftermarket/custom intake manifold, and the GMPP aluminum head!!!😉
I see that you checked the ring gap on the old rings. Did you check the gaps on the new ones? I also see that the valve seats were too wide. Spinning valves on the seats with grinding compound is only good for a final finish and check of the seats - not meant to substitute for a valve job.
Changing parts like cap and rotor, plugs, and wires does little to bring up the horsepower. Look at things like too much slop in timing chain, worn distributor shaft, and worn out cam lobes.
If you do a half-ass "overhaul," you get half-ass results.
Adjust rockers with it running .. maybe stops are worn in studs and valves aren’t closing all the way
Mill the head down, maybe some modified tunnel ram, coil on cap & swap to an efi(if possible)... and procharge or turbo?
I would say that is pretty close to what a new stock motor made so the next thing to do is to throw some performance parts at it like a new head and try to find a different intake and cam
I would guess this motor should make from 110 hp to 135 hp. Something is off that this starts to dive in power around 3500 rpm, and is crashing by 4,000 rpm.
Factory peak power is 110hp at 3800rpm. Its not far off
@@timothybayliss6680 I did not know that. 3800 is the peak power, that seems a bit low but OK. Thanks so much.
@@RalphRomano2 its got the same cam profile as the most basic 389 2bbl that made peak power at 3600. Maybe even the same head.
@@timothybayliss6680 OK - I did not look that motor up. I simply assumed since it's a "trophy" 4 cylinder that it was the 4 barrel cam, and based most of what I said about that motor. I know pontiacs v8's and don't care about the other motors. Since it's using the 1/2 block and the same head, I figured my numbers more on the 4 bl cam.
WOW, that's interesting. Imagine if they did that with LS or new LT...
Id say camshaft has lost lift and possibly poor lifter pump up. Try a few quarts of 15w40 in it and see if it helps
@richard Hollander I didn't realize that you had dished pistons. I have a bad 389 but i might be able to get 4 flat top pistons together out of it. Maybe some v8 rods but the bearings had uneven wear so the rods might be honed out of square. It might be worth it to use std 400 pistons and bore it .058" over to make them work as to also use later model heads but if you'd like standard 389 flat tops for any reason let me know.
thnx-bore to 400 is the plan