No, this is pretty much the standard of historian conversation. "There is no evidence of (widely held belief)" Presented with evidence. "Well that doesn't count because there isn't evidence that words mean what they do." Accepting these spurious arguments isn't much better than thinking they Scarlett Johansson movie is a documentary.
Another absolutely riveting presentation! I enjoyed it tremendously and want you to know just how much I appreciate you! I love everything Tudor and you are such a fountain of knowledge in that field
Well done, Claire! I have never thought that Henry VIII was the father of Henry Carey because, judging from the portraiture (very subjective, I realize), Henry Carey looked like a blend of Mary Boleyn and her husband, William Carey. IF Henry VIII fathered either of the Carey children -- and that's a big "if" -- Catherine Carey looked more like him and his illegitimate son by Bessie Blount, Henry Fitzroy. Of course, since Henry VIII and William Carey were 3rd cousins via their shared Beaufort ancestry, and both men were also related to Mary Boleyn via her mother's descent from Edward I through the Mowbray and Howard family, any likeness between Henry VIII and Catherine Carey can be explained on the basis of this shared descent.
Those who confidently speculate that the king was Henry Carey's father totally fail to understand just how desperate King Henry and his council were for a male heir. Another son would have changed the whole dynamic of succession. If there had been even the least suspicion that Henry Carey was a royal by-blow, a faction would have risen up around him to put him forward as an heir to the throne. Neither King Henry, Cardinal Woolsey, nor Thomas Cromwell ever took any interest in Henry Carey, which they all certainly would have done if young Carey were Henry VIII's son. We don't even have to guess about this. We have only to look at the king's treatment of his acknowledged illegitimate son, Henry Fitzroy. Anne Boleyn would NEVER have raised up to prominence a rival to her own children or flaunted a walking, talking impediment to the legitimacy of her own marriage to Henry VIII. When Henry VIII died in 1547, Henry Carey would have been about 20. When Edward VI died in 1553, Henry Carey would have been about 27, a grown man with several children of his own by then. He would have been vastly more preferable as an heir to the throne than either Lady Jane Grey, Mary Tudor, or Elizabeth Tudor. There was never the least speculation or suggestion of Henry Careys becoming the heir, while when Henry Fitzroy lived, his prospects were discussed openly. Henry Carey went on to father a boatload of sons. SOMEONE would have reached out to ONE of them if there had been the least expectation that they had royal blood.
Henry VIII kept it secret so he could marry Anne...Mary's SISTER....YUCK...no the church and folks wouldn't put up with him sleeping with sisters! It's real easy to find out..get Henry Carey s DNA and then get Henry VIII and then Anne's.....
@@sirtedricwalker2979That's a great idea, but Queen Elizabeth ll would not let that happen. I bet King Charles wouldn't let that happen either. I don't know what their fears are about DNA. It would be fascinating to learn more about the past. 💗🙏💗
@@Odanti I agree because I've always thought Henry Carey and his sister were Henry VIII and Mary Boelyn 's children. I mean he then married Anne and has Queen Elizabeth I....then Mary Boelyn disappears and no one knows where her grave is?? QE I would have been made illegimate along with HVIII. That all had to be hidden.
@@sirtedricwalker2979 Remember, by that time, Elizabeth didn't have any sisters left. She only ever had her Boleyn-side cousins, like the Careys, the Howards and the Neofolks to support her. Even when Mary Tudor was alive, their relationship was never of equals and was ALWAYS fraught and complicated.
Hi Claire, it’s comforting to know Elizabeth kept her cousins close . Maybe they passed on some of her mother’s things along with stories of her. I hope so. I don’t think Mary’s other children were Henry’s either. Mary’s 2nd husband was kinda cute, I’ve never seen a pic of him. Thanks from the States! 😀
Each of your sentences contradict each other. Sorry idk what you mean. The person was cute, but, you have never seen a picture? How was he cute? Do you see how each sentence contradicts itself? It's sad that people though REST was hie you avoided ore term babies. More likely bacteria. Like STDs or even just yeast and not a lot of fluid intake in summers hard work. ❤❤❤
I agree. Why? Because I think Henry would have been pleased to acknowledge more sons than Henry Fitzroy, if he had any. He lavished so much affection and honours on his acknowledged illegitimate son, that it just seems crazy that he wouldn't do it for another -if he had one. It would also have been more evidence that his lack of an heir was the fault of Katherine (or his marriage to her) than himself - it would have basically boosted his ego and masculinity to acknowledge them. Also, if it was generally believed at the time that the Carey children were Henry's, they would have been a threat to Elizabeth and her claim to the Crown - when you consider that Elizabeth herself was considered illegitimate by many people. I'm sure that if there had been any truth to it, they would not have been raised so high at Elizabeth's court.
You certainly have done alot of research and time on your subject here. Brilliant work you have done. From Australia. My mother's side goes back to half brother of WTConquerer, but I have not followed it through thoroughly.
1. RED HAIR. Elizabeth of York (Henry VIII's mother) was a redhead. Henry VIII was a redhead. Elizabeth I (Henry VIII daughter by Anne Bolyen), was a redhead. Catherine Carey was a redhead. Henry Carey was a redhead. William Carey and his mother and father were NOT redheads, nor has any ascendant of William Carey been identified as a redhead. Mary Bolyen and her mother and father were NOT redheads, nor has any ascendant of Mary Bolyen been identified as a redhead. The genetic fact is red hair runs in families, a child MUST inherit the gene from a parent. Mary and William do not have red hair nor do they have an identifiable ancestor with red hair. So, who gave the Carey kids red hair? Red hair was rarer then than now. Today modern transportation allows races to easily travel and mix. Those from races where red hair is common can much more easily travel far and wide spreading the red hair gene. Not so in Henry VIIIs time. 2. THE CAREY KIDS LOOKED LIKE HENRY VIII. The number of letters that speak of the resemblance that both Catherine and Henry had to Henry VIII cannot be denied. Their red hair, their looks, and the dalliances between Henry VIII and Mary Boleyn are why everyone in Court thought Henry VIII was their father. Paintings that remain of them clearly show it is more than just red hair. They look like Henry VIII. Facial and other physical features are handed down from parent to child. Look at Willilam, and Henry VIIIs portraits in their 30s, and look at Henry Carey's portrait and tell me he looks more like William than Henry VIII? 3. THE COURT OF HENRY VIII KNEW THE CAREY CHILDREN WERE HENRYS, AND HENRY DID NOTHING TO STOP THE RUMORS, NOR DID HE DENY THEM. Henry VIII was NOT A NICE PERSON! He was not the type of man to allow people to slander his name, nor to allowed it to pass without rebuke. Henry VIII executed so many people that by the end of his reign he was known as an awful tyrant. Queen Anne was hated by many during her life and after her death. She was a whore in the people's eyes, accused of tempting Henry to abandon Catherine of Aragon, a beloved queen of the People. Likewise, Elizabeth was hated as a "bastard child" of the whore Anne. By the time Henrty died, however, this belief was completely reversed. Henry was an evil devil of a man, a butcher of women and men, a devil in human form. Everyone knew it by his death, and as such Queen Anne was seen in a much better light. The People rejoiced when the once hated "bastard child" Elizabeth I took to the thrown. Resurrected, like her mother by the proof of vile hatred that existed in Henry VIII. If Henry VIII had any objection to the continued rumors of him being the father of the Carey children, it is idiotic to suggest that he would not have put an end to the slander and punish those doing it. Henry was a hate-filled, evil man he would NEVER have put up with slander. If Henry had any objection to these rumors he would have ended them by cutting off the heads of those saying them. He did not do that. Henry VIII did not object to the rumors that he was the Carey's father. 4. HENRY WAS WITH MARY DURING THE TIME THE BOLYEN CHILDREN WERE CONCEIVED. If Henry was not bedding Mary at the time the Carey Children were conceived, then all the Court would have known it was impossible for him to have been the father. Ergo the rumors would never have been started. The fact that it was said Henry was their father proves the Court knew he was bedding Mary at the time of their conception. If the Court of Henry VIII all believed that Herny Carey was the King's Sone, then they had to have known that Mary and Henry were together when Catherine and Henry were conceived. If the dates of conception were not within the time Mary was being bedded by Henry, then the Court would have known. That everyone thought they were Henry's is proof that Mary and Henry were together at the time of conception, because that is the only way it could have been possible for Henry to be considered to be their father. 5. HENRY SAW THAT THE CAREY CHILDREN WERE CARED FOR AND ADVANCED AT THE COURT. Herny ALLOWED Queen Anne to have Henry Carey educated. If Henry did not want it to be, it would never have been. Henry ran the Court, not Anne. It was Henry who wanted Herny Carey educated, Anne merely carried out Herny's wishes. Further, in the last grant to William Carey was a title that came with the stipulation that it be passed to Henry at William's death. In 1539, when Catherine was 15, Henry appointed her Maid of Honor to Anne of Cleves. This is despite the Boleyn family's fall from Henry's graces. A study of the State Papers and other records for that time reveals that the family of the Bolelyn's suffered constant persecution and spoilation at the hand of Herny VIII. Yet Henry never raises a hand against either Catherine or Henry Carey. Further, in April 1540 Catherine married Sir Francis Knollys. It has been suggested that Catherine's marriage to Francis Knollys (as well as Mary's marriage to William Carey) was arranged by Henry. With this marriage, Francis was created Gentielman Pensioner, his first royal appointment. Also upon their marriage, there was the assurance of the Mannor of Rotherfield Grey, Oxon, to Francis and Katherine by Act of Parliament in May of 1540. No dowery eh? However, in a short time there was a dispute over the possession of Rotherfield Grey, so Henry on November 23, 1545 secured Francis and Catherine's possession of the Mannor with another Act of Parliament on December 31, 1545. This document is sealed with the King's stamp and clearly names Catherin and Francis Knollys. Henry was awful to the Bolyen family after the fall of Anne, but never to the kids of Mary. He even allowed Courtiers to go about rumoring that he was their father. Henry never said he was their father, but everyone thought he was, and he never denied it nor tried to stop the rumors he was. Henry clearly did not object to his Court rumoring that they were his children. He took care of them and saw to it that they were well positioned in his court to prosper in Elizabeth's court. 6. ELIZABETH GAVE THEM GREAT HONORS BEYOND THEIR STATION. These three were the ONLY Bolyne children of Anne and Mary. That alone can explain why Elizabeth was so close to each. However, in death Elizbeth did something very improper for both of them. Catherine was not only given a funeral fit for a Queen but her funeral papers are kept in Westminster! Catherine Carey Knolly's funeral papers are the only ones not belonging to a King or Queen of England in Westminster. And Henry's funeral Monument in Westminster is the Tallest in England still to this day. His monument looks down on every King and Queen of England! This is sheer arrogance! A mere Noble looks down on the Kings and Queens of England!!!! Not only did Elizabeth allow this to happen, but there is no record of anyone objecting to it. Nobles begin elevated to Royal status in Westminster. It is unheard of in the history of the country. The Carey children stand alone in this aspect of their deaths. No Noble has ever been given such honors in death. Was Elizabeth saying something? She knew the importance of image. Why elevate them in death? Why further their rumored Royal birth? Why create the image that they were more important than they were? Elizabeth knew the rumors, she could see her father's face in the Careys. She knew the rumors were true and their funerals were her way of elevating them to their birth.
Well, thanks for this info. Perhaps let us know how you got it all together. Very interesting. I hope Henry the APE, is no relation of mine and he was a evil man. Lizzie was no angel from what I have read. Not nice the Tudors. Poor Queen Catherine.
Thank you for the very detailed reply. We don't actually know that the Careys had red hair. It was fashionable in Elizabeth I's reign for her courtiers to dye their hair and beards red to honour the queen. I would also say that Henry Carey looks more dark blond than red-haired in his portrait, and the same with Catherine Carey. Also, we don't know what Mary Boleyn looked liked or Thomas Boleyn and Elizabeth Howard, so we definitely can't theorise based on hair colour. I'm also not sure that we know what William Carey looked like. I don't think that portrait has been firmly identified as him, but I would say that his colouring matches the Carey children. There were all kinds of rumours at the royal court, as there is anywhere where you have lots of people all together, and if we are to believe them then Henry VIII fathered lots of children. Henry VIII was a very private man and there don't seem to have been any rumours about him sleeping with Bessie Blount until he acknowledged her son, so I can't see anyone knowing about his relationship with Mary Boleyn. Elizabeth was not hated. She appears to have been popular and well loved as the daughter of Good King Hal. There's no evidence that Henry was with Mary at the time the Carey children were conceived. Not one jot of evidence. He didn't make any effort to see the Carey children advanced apart from granting Henry Carey's wardship to Anne, which was a win-win situation. We know nothing about whose idea that was, but I expect it was Anne's seeing as she then employed Nicholas Bourbon, and she did that, not Henry. Catherine was appointed maid of honour to Anne of Cleves in 1539, yes, but I can't see how that's evidence of her being the king's daughter. Many years of her standing were appointed as maids of honour. She was of age, she was the daughter of the king's late friend and relative, a man who'd been an esquire of the privy chamber. Her grandfather had been a loyal servant of the crown and had died just a few months earlier. The Boleyns did not suffer persecution following Anne's fall. Thomas Boleyn lost the privy seal and was out of favour for no longer than a few months. He was back serving the king during the Pilgrimage of Grace and so much was he in favour that it was rumoured that he was going to marry Lady Margaret Douglas, the king's niece. And, when he died in March 1539, Henry VIII paid 16l. 13s. 4d. to his chaplain, William Franklyn, Dean of Windsor, “for certain oraisons, suffrages and masses to be said for the soul’s health of th’erle of Wilts, late deceased”, which is hard evidence that Thomas was high in favour. Sir Francis Knollys' father was a favourite of both Henry VII and Henry VIII so Francis simply followed in his footsteps at court, as many young men did. His father had been granted Rotherfield Greys in 1514. Elizabeth did give them great honour. Like her father before her, she was generous to those who served her loyally. The Careys weren't only loyal servants, who sacrificed much in service to her, they were also her first cousins and family was important to Elizabeth. I think it's a huge leap to read more into their burials than Elizabeth simply honouring her closest relatives.
Red hair will result in a child, if both parents are red haired. However, red hair is a recessive gene. Both my niece and her husband have brown hair, but one of their children has beautiful red hair. That means that both have f them had ancestors who had red hair.
How do u know none of William Careys ancestors had red hair? Recessive traits like red hair can be dormant in a family for upto 7 generations. He had 4 grandparents, 8 great grandparents, 16 great grandparents and thats only going back 4 generations ....how the hell do u know none of his ancestors had red hair? The red hair gene was fairly common amongst royals due to inbreeding as that brings out recessive traits. I severely doubt he wasn't a carrier of red hair ...cause even if an aristocrat didn't have red hair they were likely carriers.
An excellent presentation which is fully grounded in the evidence. I became interested in the Carey marriage because of William Carey’s descent from the Beauforts - and the modern link to the present Royal Family from the marriage of William and Elizabeth.
Thank you, again, for your thorough research, Claire. It has never sat well with me that people think Henry fathered Mary's children. Henry would have acknowledged the fruits of his lions, I'm certain. Even daughters were proof of fertility, if somewhat useless as heirs *cough cough*.
I think Henry would have acknowledged ANY son he fathered, if for no other reason than as proof that he can produce boys. Therefore, his lack of sons by Catherine of Aragon, is all her fault (even though she did give him a living son. How sad that he died after a few short months.)(Henry would have been a lot less fascinating had the baby grown to adulthood)And, lack of sons by Anne is her fault.
No not just any son. He reportedly had more illegitimate kids, most boys. Just cause he acknowledged 1 boy and wanted him to be heir doesn't mean he would do it with all of them. A legitimate boy will always have a stronger claim, better yet if he comes from a political union. I doubt Henry Carey is his kid but Catherine ...yeah I can see it.
It amazes me every day that so many things that we take as gospel are figments of various authors' imagination. Henry was already larger than life (pun intended!). I honestly think that we want the queens to get the coverage that they got from their ex! A very witty video as always, Claire!
I thoroughly enjoy your posts. For my 13:31 whole life I’ve read books, watched movies and tv series, it seems I can’t get enough. I’m with you. I don’t believe Mary had any of Henry’s children. I believe script writers forget babies take 9 months, Henry’s time separating from the Church, took years not months. Fran Vancouver 🇨🇦 Canada
I listened to a podcast where the my tracked the location of the King and Bessie and Mary to see when they were in close proximity to even father the children. Since everyone moved around it made accessibility an interesting discussion.
As an American descendant of Mary Boleyn myself, through her daughter, Catherine, I really hope Henry VIII was not the father of Mary's children. My ancestry has enough "bad blood" running through it without adding Henry VIII's sins.
Me too lol me and my husband are related Don’t forgot the horrible stuff Henry 7 did to prince from the tower…. It was def Richard… the true king … Henry 7 murdered him imo!!!
Is there actually evidence that Mary Boleyn definitely came home with Mary Tudor from France? Allison Weir pointed to some possible (not concrete, but possible) evidence of her staying on in France, and thus encountering Henry later. She made it sound like there was not firm documentation either way. She also said that "You can trace a pattern of Henry maintaining Katherine financially throughout her life, making provision for her to have a good marriage," which seems to conflict with your statement that there was only one annuity or grant for Mary... Not saying Weir is correct, but she did make an interesting case for Catherine (but not Henry) being Henry's daughter, and it seems she agrees about the laundress' daughter being another possible daughter.
William Carey is the father of his wife’s (Mary Boleyn) two children. I have not come across from any possibility. I don’t take Philippa Gregory’s work seriously. Not a fan. Thank you for your video.
@@anneboleynfiles That’s true, but Henry didn’t claim them like he did with Henry Fitzroy. Maybe he couldn’t because of Anne Boleyn. We can only speculate. I’m glad Elizabeth took such care of Mary’s children.
Reading Gregory's work is like watching The Crown. It can be very entertaining but it's fiction. No one related some of those supposed conversations to anyone in both cases.
Thank you for the info. I don't really think either of her children where Henry's. If I were pressed, I might agree that the daughter Katherine might be, but not the son. Henry VIII did tend to acknowledge his sons. So if Mary's son was his, I think he would have acknowledge that. On the other hand, Henry VIII was rather dismissive of his daughter (doted on them from time to time), even de-legitimating with ease.
One if my brothers in-law claims a direct line to Henry VIII through one of the Carey children. I doubted the story. Thank you for clearing it up. We do have ancestors of royal decent to on our side of the family. To those tracing decent back to Mary, keep looking. There might be royals down the Howard line somewhere.
Why is it that people are so so against close close close relationships, like a man sleeping with two sisters, but he can sleep with his aunt's daughter which is his cousin, he can sleep with that person sister too, he can sleep with that person's cousin as well, honestly it's disgusting why it's so bad for a king to sleep with two sisters however if he sleeps with his own cousin and they have a baby it's just wonderful news
Not gonna lie i was convinced Catherine was at least his kid and even commented it on another of your videos. But after this im inclined to believe they werent. Henry definitely wasnt his kid, Catherine ...not impossible but very unlikely. Thanks for the video.
The culture around mistresses was clearly different in the English court verse the French court. It seems to me that English kings didn't sleep with the wives of their courtiers, unlike in France. If I remember right, one of the reasons King John was so hated was the rumors of him sleeping with his noble's wives.
All you have to do is look at the red haired children that came from Catherine Carey. Like Leticia Knollys. And I understand she was a dead ringer for Elizabeth I. Where else did the red hair come from? Elizabeth would NEVER have allowed Leticia the privileges (including her sons) that she bestowed if Leticia was not indeed her true cousin. Where are all the paintings of those that were given honors by the King besides Carey as you mentioned. Why then a portraiture made of the two children (as adults) in very regal clothing? Carey was given so much so that he could support the children of the King and keep his mouth shut. The King had already been through hell and back in trying to legitimize his marriage to Anne, obviously this is how the Protestant church came to reside in England as a result. Having gone through all that, do you think he would have wanted to go through that again in an attempt to legitimize his children? NO. He went to his death still thinking he could get a legitimate heir with a royal marriage, such as Jane Seymour. And, in his mind, when he died, he did have a living heir......not to survive, of course. And there are many of us who do descend from Mary and Henry Tudor that still have the red hair, even to this day.
Soooo.. I'm actually a double descendant of Mary Boleyn through both of her children. Honestly, I've always thought that a DNA test should be done on the remains of Mary's children just to have the question answered once and for all. I would really hope Henry wasn't the father, but if he had to be the father of one, I'd guess Catherine would more likely be his.
I think we do not know. It is all speculation. The only shred of "evidence" it seems to me is Lettice Knollys favored Elizabeth a lot, at least some people claimed. If she did, she must have been more than a first cousin once removed but who's to say Katharine Carey's husband was not in some way related to the Tudors. We don't know, and we really don't know if Lettice favored Elizabeth anyway. That could be a legend. Botton line, it could be said Henry would not have acknowledged a bastard daughter, but he would have a son. As Alison Weir said, maybe Katheriene, but not her brother. the only other question I have had is why did it take Mary Boleyn 4 years to conceive a child after marriage? but maybe she did, and those babies died.
Yes, definitely speculation and there can be resemblances between family members like that. Mary may well have had miscarriages or stillbirths we don't know about as she wasn't that important at the time, so her pregnancies wouldn't appear in any royal records or anything.
I do believe that if Henry VIII had fathered her children, he would have acknowledged at least Henry Carey. As additional evidence that he could father a male child.
I agree, I think Henry Carey was born after Mary's relationship with Henry viii had ended but about Catherine I'm not sure, I think there could be a resemblance to Henry viii in her portrait, and if Mary was his mistress in 1523 it is possible Catherine was his daughter, born the follow year.
It seems rather inconsiderate of Henry to commit adultery with his good friend's wife, shortly after he got them married. Especially when Henry had his pick of young, unmarried women at court. I read that Mary was prettier than Anne, but Anne was more charming, intelligent, and cultured.
@@lisaa.4667Henry was a narcissist. Why would u be surprised? He turned on people easily, his 'friends', his wives and family members. He is definitely the type to sleep with a 'friends' wife.
@@lisaa.4667Men often made good marriages for their mistresses in history. People were weird back then. Some got them married off so illegitimate offspring would be perceived as legitimate. Many were also married off after their relationship with a royal as a 'thank you' for being a mistress.
Sorry I forgot two points I wanted to make. 7. TIMING PATTERNS SHOW RELATIONSHIPS. This is a standard measuring device in science. Cause and Effect. The Cause always come before the effect. She makes the statements repeatedly that Henry VIII rewarded lost of people, seemingly all the time. Thus the grants to William Carey, and to Francis Knollys don't indicate anything. This is absured! Let's look at the facts here. William Carey. He recieved 4 grants in his life from Henry, all came after his marriage to Mary. William is 25 years old when he marries and gets his first grant. He never gets anything from Henry before this. William was a "favorite" of Henry, yet in his first 25 years of life Henry gave him nothing, NOTHING!!! William gets nothing from Henry until after he marries Mary. Looks to me like Mary is the favorite not William. So her argument is that William's grants mean nothing as Henry is allway giving gifts to William... NO HE DIDN'T, William Carey got nothing from Henry for 25 years till he marries Mary. William IS NOT Henry's favorite. Henry give him nothing till he marries Mary his mistress! Mary is Henry's favoite. So, William and Mary get married, and William gets his first gift from Henry at 25 years of age. So, Herny's generosity is now going to lavis gifts on William eh? Not on your life. Over the next four years Henry gives William nothing, nada, ziltch, bubkis. But... A month before Catherine's birth William gets a second grant from Henry. Hum? Then for two more years pass and William gets more nothing from Henry. until... two weeks before Henry Careys birth, Henry gives him another grant. For a favorite of the court Henry doesn't seem to even like William. He has to married the Kings mistress before He gets anything. Then he has to have a child with the King's mistress before he gets anything else. Then he has to have a second kid with the King's mistress before he gets more. While the last grant was just a disguise to give Henry Carey a Title. It is obviousl to me that Herny doesn't even care about William, he cares about Mary. Everything Wiliam gets from Henry revolves around Mary and her children. If it can be shown that Herny gave gifts like these to others after they got married and had kids, then you can say this behavior is not unusual and so suggestive. I haven't hard any proof that Henry always did this for others. Now Francis Knolly. Francis was the son of Sir Willam Knolley a minor gentilmen of the court. Francis is 29 years of age when he Marries Catherin Carey,. Francis is never given anythign by Herny, then at 29 he marries Catherine and the gifts start rolling in...just like with William. Ignored, married, then popular with Henry. Again she says that Herny gives lot of gifts so that Francis got one is nothing. Wrong, Timing is key. He has to marry Catherine before he gets anything from Henry, just like with William. Over 29 years of life, Henry NEVER gave Francis Knolly anything. He give him nothing UNITL he married Catherine Carey! Timing shows relationships. Cause and effect. The truth here is Henry did NOT give out lots of gifts to these two individuals. She needs to stop saying that. He gave William and Frances nothing for almost 3 decades, then they married Mary and her daughter Cathering and NOW Henry likes them an gives them gifts. William is supposed to be a "favorite" of Henry's, not Francis, yet they are treated the same, ignored unilt they marry Mary and her daughter. And remember is is rumored that both marriages were arranged by Herny. Cause and Effect... Identical timing patters with both men. In Scient we call that a relationship, unless it can be shown that this pattern repeats with other people in similar situations to Wiliam and Francis. 8. THE COURT RUMOR MILL. She claims that there are lots of rumors, if they were all true Herny would have fathered dozens. I don't know if she is mispeaking or lying on this point but, ONLY 7 children over Henry's lifetime of bedding women, were rumored to be unrecognized children of Herny, not dozens. If Herny was a "private person" as she writes, that changes nothing. Henry is the King, he is constantly surrounded by courtiers and aids, he lives in a fish bowl. As she pointed out Henry, the "private Perons" was denied a divorce from the Pope because the Pope, in Rome, knew he'd bedded Mary Bolyen, Anne's sister. Not to private was Henry? The Pope knew and so did all of Europe probably. Heny lived in a fish bowl, he was always surrounded by people. He couldn't go anywhere without being seen or accompanied. The Court knew what was going on. If Henry had a single daliance with a woman that might go unnotieced but no an affair that lasted for some time. Here is the list the 7 kids that were rumored to be Henry's but not claimed by him: 1. Thomas Stukley bn. 1520. Herny never admitted to an affair with his mother Jane Pollard, but the Court believed that he'd had an affair and Tom was his because they saw them together and Herny treated her like he treated his known mistresses. Remember, Henry bedded lots of women only a few are rumored to have had Herny's kids. In these few instances, the Courtiers realized something was different with these women. That does not mean it is true, but they were there, they saw what was going on and how Henry reacted towards people in his court. They saw how he acted towards women they knew Henry was bedding and to those he wasn't. Obviously they saw the similarities in how Henry treated these 6 women to be separated out for special consideration of the hundreds if not thousand Henry bedded. This behvor of Kings producing bastards was the norm for Kings, bastards were everywhere by the time Henry is born. 2. Elizabeth Tailboys - Bn. April 1520. She is Bessie Blount's daughter born one year after her brother Fitzroy. Concived while Henry was still bedding her, or so it appeared to the Courtiers, and they were there! They know more than we do today about Henry's doings then, they should be consider a primary source. 3. Catherine Carey bn. 1524. 4. Richard Edwardes - Bn, March 25, 1525. The son of Agnes Blewitt Edwards. Again Henry never admits to a relationship, but they spend enough time together in private that the Courtiers know something was afoote. Henry did not spend quality time with women in private for good conversation. He treated Agnes publically like he did his other mistresses, and the Courtiers saw that she conceived Richard while they were together creating the possibility that he was Henry's. 5. Henry Carey bn. March 4, 1526, 2 years after Catherine. 6. Etherlreda “Audrey” Malte bn. 1527. Daughter of Joan Dingley. The Maltes were minor people, it is suggested that she may have been a launderess. Henry never openly acknowledged Audrey, BUT, Henry gave John Malte land and properties AFTER Malte recognized Audrey publicly as his own daughter. Like with William and Farncis, before Audrey John Malte got nothing from Henry, then all of a sudden a nobody in his court gets gifts from Herny. Three peets make a pattern in statistics. 7. John Perrot bn. November 1528 sone of Mary Berkeley a known mistress of Henry's. Concieved while the Courtiers saw they were still together. I cannot stress enought, over the decades in which the Courtiers saw Herny bedding women, ONLY 6 women were rumored to have had chidren with Henry. To suggest that this small number of suspected illegitimate children is the Courtier's hysteria is rediculous Only 6 over Hernrys lifetime. That is not hysteria. The Courtiers WERE THERE. Every day, week after week. They knew Henry's habits and behaviors. They saw Henry treat these 6 women differently from all the others he bed. This does not prove they were Henry's kids, they were all married women, at the time. Only a DNA test on their bones will prove conclusively if they were Henry's kids. But, the Courteirs were not hystiercal women and men. They did not accues Henry of having dozens of bastard kids, ONLY 7 in Henry's entire lifetime were rumored to be his bastards.
I'm out and about so don't have time to answer properly, but it's completely untrue that Carey got nothing until he was married to Mary Boleyn. His annuity was granted before he married her. His grants are in keeping with his service record like those of his colleagues in the privy chamber. And the payments for playing tennis and cards etc. with the king prior to his marriage show he was a royal favourite on the rise.
@@anneboleynfiles "His grants are in keeping with his service record like those of his colleagues in the privy chamber." That is his pay and winnings, not Royal Grants. In all I've read, William gets only 4 Royal Grants from Herny, all during the affair with Mary. 1522, June 1524, February 1526, and April 1526. The 1522 Royal Grant is at the start of the affair. The June 1524 Royal Grant is two months before Catherine's birth. The Royal Grant on February 20, 1526 is 12 days before Henry Carey's birth. You have spoken of John Hale's (Vicar of Isleworth), letter to the Council of Apirl 20, 1535 in which he writes" "I confess the four bills by Mr. Feerne, Mr. Leeke, Mr. Skydmore, and Sir Thos. Mody to be true, and that by such seditious ways I have maliciously slandered the King and Queen and their Council; for which I ask forgiveness of God, king Henry VIII., and queen Anne, and shall continue sorrowful during my life, which stands only in the King's will. Moreover, Mr. Skydmore dyd show to me yongge Master Care, saying that he was our suffren Lord the Kynge's son by our suffren Lady the Qwyen's syster, whom the Qwyen's grace myght not suffer to be yn the Cowrte." Found in J. S. Brewer's work LETTERS AND PAPERS, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC OF THE REIGN OF HENRY VIII, Vol. 8, 567. It makes clear the common belief in Henry's court that Henry Carey is Henry VIII's son and is being introduced as Henry VIII's son. Is it not illegal to do so if it is not true? Henry VIII never objected to this rumor of Henry Careys birth, why not? Henry VIII was not a man to be toyed with, he liked to cut people's heads off who toyed with him. Yet he never objects to those who introduce Herny Carey as his son. Other letters speak of the Carey children's remarkable resemblance to Henry VIII as well. The 3rd. Royal Grant, made 12 days before Herny' Carey's birth, includes the Borough of Buckingham, which is given to William Carey in "tail male". Meaning it is to be inherited by William's son! The Last Royal grant is given 2 months after Mary gives birth to a son, and we all know how much Henry likes sons. This 4th Royal Grant makes William the Keeper of the Manor, Garden, and Tower of Pleasance at East Greenwich! Why is this interesting eh? Sir George Pultenham of Sherfield writes of this tower of Pleasance at East Greenwich saying: “the King. . . in his barge, went from Westminster to Greenwich to visit a fair lady whom the king loved, who was lodged in the tower of the park." This letter is found in A. G. Estrange's work THE PALACE AND THE HOSPIAL OR CHORNICLES OF GREENWICH, (2 vols., 1886), Vol. I, p. 192; LP IV, 2218 (12), 464 (18); Warnicke, 35, 237-8. So, two months after Herny Carey was born, Henry VIII, who has been of late, traveling to the Tower of Pleasance at East Greenwich to be with a woman he loves, William Carey, husband to Henry's mistress Mary, is made Keeper of the Tower where Henry's love lives! That is not a coincidence. It is payment for a son. William gets no further Royal Grants from Henry and dies of the sweating sickness on June 22, 1528. In law, there is a principle called "Preponderance of Facts", upon which guilt may be determined in Non-Capital cases. Looking at those sources left to us from that time, letters, and official records, we know William Carey got no Royal Grants before he married Mary, and none after the affair with Mary ended. William Carey got his pay and winnings from Henry, yes, but NO Royal Grants before the affair with Mary! All Royal Grants given to William seem to be linked to Mary, not to William. The Royal Grants start with the affair; The Royal Grant before Catherine is born; The "tail male" grant of the Borough of Buckingham 12 days before Henry is born; And the Royal Grant making William the Keeper of the tower where Herny's love lives. All these Royal Grants revolve around Mary and her kids not around William Carey. All those men chosen by Henry for a Privey appointment are close to him, that is a fact, they're all up-and-comers. I do not deny the closeness between these 3rd cousins, both descendants of John Beaufort 1st Earl of Somerset. But, William received NO Royal Grants from Henry until he Married Mary Boleyn! He got only 4 in the space of Henry's affair with his wife Mary and no more than these 4.
DNA will solve the mystery. Unless, of course, you are related to both the Boleyns AND the Tudors...which i am and although the tree is interesting..it certainly gives off the ick vibe.
@@anneboleynfiles Central air. A fan. Cotton blouses. Did tattoos exist in Tudor England? Would ladies have had them? I cannot take you seriously, and there are other Tudor channels. Give me now leave, to leave thee. Adieu.
@@livingincaptivityIII so I should get air con in my property, wear a cotton blouse and be ink free just to please you? No, I think I'll live how I like to live and please do move on. You might want to avoid Dan Jones too as he has far more tattoos than me but is a well respected historian. Oh, and they didn't have "central air" in Tudor England, and it's not a big thing here in rural Spain either.
@@anneboleynfiles I like your look. Dan Jones would look cool shirtless, showing off his tats like an ancient Celtic warrior as he lectures about the Plantagenets.
Can't argue with Ms. Ridgeway. Her research & knowledge of all things Tudor are phenomenal 👏 TY 😊
Aw, thank you, but I do love a good discussion!
No, this is pretty much the standard of historian conversation. "There is no evidence of (widely held belief)" Presented with evidence. "Well that doesn't count because there isn't evidence that words mean what they do." Accepting these spurious arguments isn't much better than thinking they Scarlett Johansson movie is a documentary.
Another absolutely riveting presentation! I enjoyed it tremendously and want you to know just how much I appreciate you! I love everything Tudor and you are such a fountain of knowledge in that field
You are so welcome! Thank you!
I love how you debunk ideas about the Tudors that we have come to take for granted. I like having a different prospective to consider. Thanks.
Another well argued video. You make your case soundly and logically. Plus its very entertaining, you provide such wonderful insight into Tudor times.
Thank you!
Many thanks Claire for all your research and for yet another interesting and enjoyable broadcast.
Well done, Claire!
I have never thought that Henry VIII was the father of Henry Carey because, judging from the portraiture (very subjective, I realize), Henry Carey looked like a blend of Mary Boleyn and her husband, William Carey.
IF Henry VIII fathered either of the Carey children -- and that's a big "if" -- Catherine Carey looked more like him and his illegitimate son by Bessie Blount, Henry Fitzroy. Of course, since Henry VIII and William Carey were 3rd cousins via their shared Beaufort ancestry, and both men were also related to Mary Boleyn via her mother's descent from Edward I through the Mowbray and Howard family, any likeness between Henry VIII and Catherine Carey can be explained on the basis of this shared descent.
Those who confidently speculate that the king was Henry Carey's father totally fail to understand just how desperate King Henry and his council were for a male heir. Another son would have changed the whole dynamic of succession. If there had been even the least suspicion that Henry Carey was a royal by-blow, a faction would have risen up around him to put him forward as an heir to the throne. Neither King Henry, Cardinal Woolsey, nor Thomas Cromwell ever took any interest in Henry Carey, which they all certainly would have done if young Carey were Henry VIII's son. We don't even have to guess about this. We have only to look at the king's treatment of his acknowledged illegitimate son, Henry Fitzroy. Anne Boleyn would NEVER have raised up to prominence a rival to her own children or flaunted a walking, talking impediment to the legitimacy of her own marriage to Henry VIII. When Henry VIII died in 1547, Henry Carey would have been about 20. When Edward VI died in 1553, Henry Carey would have been about 27, a grown man with several children of his own by then. He would have been vastly more preferable as an heir to the throne than either Lady Jane Grey, Mary Tudor, or Elizabeth Tudor. There was never the least speculation or suggestion of Henry Careys becoming the heir, while when Henry Fitzroy lived, his prospects were discussed openly. Henry Carey went on to father a boatload of sons. SOMEONE would have reached out to ONE of them if there had been the least expectation that they had royal blood.
Henry VIII kept it secret so he could marry Anne...Mary's SISTER....YUCK...no the church and folks wouldn't put up with him sleeping with sisters! It's real easy to find out..get Henry Carey s DNA and then get Henry VIII and then Anne's.....
@@sirtedricwalker2979That's a great idea, but Queen Elizabeth ll would not let that happen. I bet King Charles wouldn't let that happen either.
I don't know what their fears are about DNA.
It would be fascinating to learn more about the past.
💗🙏💗
@@Odanti I agree because I've always thought Henry Carey and his sister were Henry VIII and Mary Boelyn 's children. I mean he then married Anne and has Queen Elizabeth I....then Mary Boelyn disappears and no one knows where her grave is?? QE I would have been made illegimate along with HVIII. That all had to be hidden.
Then Catherine Carey gets a real close position to QE I (more like 1/2 sister than cousin!!
@@sirtedricwalker2979 Remember, by that time, Elizabeth didn't have any sisters left. She only ever had her Boleyn-side cousins, like the Careys, the Howards and the Neofolks to support her. Even when Mary Tudor was alive, their relationship was never of equals and was ALWAYS fraught and complicated.
Hi Claire, it’s comforting to know Elizabeth kept her cousins close . Maybe they passed on some of her mother’s things along with stories of her. I hope so. I don’t think Mary’s other children were Henry’s either. Mary’s 2nd husband was kinda cute, I’ve never seen a pic of him. Thanks from the States! 😀
I think family was very important to Elizabeth.
Each of your sentences contradict each other. Sorry idk what you mean. The person was cute, but, you have never seen a picture? How was he cute?
Do you see how each sentence contradicts itself?
It's sad that people though REST was hie you avoided ore term babies. More likely bacteria. Like STDs or even just yeast and not a lot of fluid intake in summers hard work.
❤❤❤
@@mindymorgan8479 If you watch the video again when Mary’s husband was mentioned a painting of a man was shown I thought it was Stafford
@@christinestudley3982 yeah lol except for that one pesky Scottish one 🧐🤣😂
@@JusticeforJessica-Gomez oops forgot about that 1 😂😂😂
Great video! I would also love to learn more about the 2 women you said probably were King Henry's daughters. Thank you
I did videos on both of them a few weeks ago - see ruclips.net/video/zLifjJH5ZGc/видео.html and ruclips.net/video/EqynfTePOIQ/видео.html
I agree. Why?
Because I think Henry would have been pleased to acknowledge more sons than Henry Fitzroy, if he had any.
He lavished so much affection and honours on his acknowledged illegitimate son, that it just seems crazy that he wouldn't do it for another -if he had one. It would also have been more evidence that his lack of an heir was the fault of Katherine (or his marriage to her) than himself - it would have basically boosted his ego and masculinity to acknowledge them.
Also, if it was generally believed at the time that the Carey children were Henry's, they would have been a threat to Elizabeth and her claim to the Crown - when you consider that Elizabeth herself was considered illegitimate by many people. I'm sure that if there had been any truth to it, they would not have been raised so high at Elizabeth's court.
Hi Claire! Good video!🎉❤
Thank you!
Fantastic video Claire ❤
You certainly have done alot of research and time on your subject here. Brilliant work you have done. From Australia. My mother's side goes back to half brother of WTConquerer, but I have not followed it through thoroughly.
Interesting! You'll have to look into it.
1. RED HAIR.
Elizabeth of York (Henry VIII's mother) was a redhead.
Henry VIII was a redhead.
Elizabeth I (Henry VIII daughter by Anne Bolyen), was a redhead.
Catherine Carey was a redhead.
Henry Carey was a redhead.
William Carey and his mother and father were NOT redheads, nor has any ascendant of William Carey been identified as a redhead.
Mary Bolyen and her mother and father were NOT redheads, nor has any ascendant of Mary Bolyen been identified as a redhead.
The genetic fact is red hair runs in families, a child MUST inherit the gene from a parent.
Mary and William do not have red hair nor do they have an identifiable ancestor with red hair.
So, who gave the Carey kids red hair?
Red hair was rarer then than now.
Today modern transportation allows races to easily travel and mix.
Those from races where red hair is common can much more easily travel far and wide spreading the red hair gene. Not so in Henry VIIIs time.
2. THE CAREY KIDS LOOKED LIKE HENRY VIII.
The number of letters that speak of the resemblance that both Catherine and Henry had to Henry VIII cannot be denied.
Their red hair, their looks, and the dalliances between Henry VIII and Mary Boleyn are why everyone in Court thought Henry VIII was their father.
Paintings that remain of them clearly show it is more than just red hair. They look like Henry VIII.
Facial and other physical features are handed down from parent to child.
Look at Willilam, and Henry VIIIs portraits in their 30s, and look at Henry Carey's portrait and tell me he looks more like William than Henry VIII?
3. THE COURT OF HENRY VIII KNEW THE CAREY CHILDREN WERE HENRYS, AND HENRY DID NOTHING TO STOP THE RUMORS, NOR DID HE DENY THEM.
Henry VIII was NOT A NICE PERSON!
He was not the type of man to allow people to slander his name, nor to allowed it to pass without rebuke.
Henry VIII executed so many people that by the end of his reign he was known as an awful tyrant.
Queen Anne was hated by many during her life and after her death.
She was a whore in the people's eyes, accused of tempting Henry to abandon Catherine of Aragon, a beloved queen of the People.
Likewise, Elizabeth was hated as a "bastard child" of the whore Anne.
By the time Henrty died, however, this belief was completely reversed.
Henry was an evil devil of a man, a butcher of women and men, a devil in human form.
Everyone knew it by his death, and as such Queen Anne was seen in a much better light.
The People rejoiced when the once hated "bastard child" Elizabeth I took to the thrown.
Resurrected, like her mother by the proof of vile hatred that existed in Henry VIII.
If Henry VIII had any objection to the continued rumors of him being the father of the Carey children, it is idiotic to suggest that he would not have put an end to the slander and punish those doing it.
Henry was a hate-filled, evil man he would NEVER have put up with slander.
If Henry had any objection to these rumors he would have ended them by cutting off the heads of those saying them.
He did not do that.
Henry VIII did not object to the rumors that he was the Carey's father.
4. HENRY WAS WITH MARY DURING THE TIME THE BOLYEN CHILDREN WERE CONCEIVED.
If Henry was not bedding Mary at the time the Carey Children were conceived, then all the Court would have known it was impossible for him to have been the father. Ergo the rumors would never have been started.
The fact that it was said Henry was their father proves the Court knew he was bedding Mary at the time of their conception.
If the Court of Henry VIII all believed that Herny Carey was the King's Sone, then they had to have known that Mary and Henry were together when Catherine and Henry were conceived.
If the dates of conception were not within the time Mary was being bedded by Henry, then the Court would have known.
That everyone thought they were Henry's is proof that Mary and Henry were together at the time of conception, because that is the only way it could have been possible for Henry to be considered to be their father.
5. HENRY SAW THAT THE CAREY CHILDREN WERE CARED FOR AND ADVANCED AT THE COURT.
Herny ALLOWED Queen Anne to have Henry Carey educated. If Henry did not want it to be, it would never have been. Henry ran the Court, not Anne. It was Henry who wanted Herny Carey educated, Anne merely carried out Herny's wishes.
Further, in the last grant to William Carey was a title that came with the stipulation that it be passed to Henry at William's death.
In 1539, when Catherine was 15, Henry appointed her Maid of Honor to Anne of Cleves. This is despite the Boleyn family's fall from Henry's graces. A study of the State Papers and other records for that time reveals that the family of the Bolelyn's suffered constant persecution and spoilation at the hand of Herny VIII. Yet Henry never raises a hand against either Catherine or Henry Carey.
Further, in April 1540 Catherine married Sir Francis Knollys.
It has been suggested that Catherine's marriage to Francis Knollys (as well as Mary's marriage to William Carey) was arranged by Henry.
With this marriage, Francis was created Gentielman Pensioner, his first royal appointment. Also upon their marriage, there was the assurance of the Mannor of Rotherfield Grey, Oxon, to Francis and Katherine by Act of Parliament in May of 1540.
No dowery eh?
However, in a short time there was a dispute over the possession of Rotherfield Grey, so Henry on November 23, 1545 secured Francis and Catherine's possession of the Mannor with another Act of Parliament on December 31, 1545. This document is sealed with the King's stamp and clearly names Catherin and Francis Knollys.
Henry was awful to the Bolyen family after the fall of Anne, but never to the kids of Mary. He even allowed Courtiers to go about rumoring that he was their father.
Henry never said he was their father, but everyone thought he was, and he never denied it nor tried to stop the rumors he was.
Henry clearly did not object to his Court rumoring that they were his children.
He took care of them and saw to it that they were well positioned in his court to prosper in Elizabeth's court.
6. ELIZABETH GAVE THEM GREAT HONORS BEYOND THEIR STATION.
These three were the ONLY Bolyne children of Anne and Mary. That alone can explain why Elizabeth was so close to each.
However, in death Elizbeth did something very improper for both of them.
Catherine was not only given a funeral fit for a Queen but her funeral papers are kept in Westminster!
Catherine Carey Knolly's funeral papers are the only ones not belonging to a King or Queen of England in Westminster.
And Henry's funeral Monument in Westminster is the Tallest in England still to this day.
His monument looks down on every King and Queen of England!
This is sheer arrogance!
A mere Noble looks down on the Kings and Queens of England!!!!
Not only did Elizabeth allow this to happen, but there is no record of anyone objecting to it.
Nobles begin elevated to Royal status in Westminster. It is unheard of in the history of the country.
The Carey children stand alone in this aspect of their deaths.
No Noble has ever been given such honors in death.
Was Elizabeth saying something? She knew the importance of image.
Why elevate them in death?
Why further their rumored Royal birth?
Why create the image that they were more important than they were?
Elizabeth knew the rumors, she could see her father's face in the Careys.
She knew the rumors were true and their funerals were her way of elevating them to their birth.
Well, thanks for this info. Perhaps let us know how you got it all together. Very interesting. I hope Henry the APE, is no relation of mine and he was a evil man. Lizzie was no angel from what I have read. Not nice the Tudors. Poor Queen Catherine.
Thank you for the very detailed reply.
We don't actually know that the Careys had red hair. It was fashionable in Elizabeth I's reign for her courtiers to dye their hair and beards red to honour the queen. I would also say that Henry Carey looks more dark blond than red-haired in his portrait, and the same with Catherine Carey. Also, we don't know what Mary Boleyn looked liked or Thomas Boleyn and Elizabeth Howard, so we definitely can't theorise based on hair colour.
I'm also not sure that we know what William Carey looked like. I don't think that portrait has been firmly identified as him, but I would say that his colouring matches the Carey children.
There were all kinds of rumours at the royal court, as there is anywhere where you have lots of people all together, and if we are to believe them then Henry VIII fathered lots of children. Henry VIII was a very private man and there don't seem to have been any rumours about him sleeping with Bessie Blount until he acknowledged her son, so I can't see anyone knowing about his relationship with Mary Boleyn.
Elizabeth was not hated. She appears to have been popular and well loved as the daughter of Good King Hal.
There's no evidence that Henry was with Mary at the time the Carey children were conceived. Not one jot of evidence.
He didn't make any effort to see the Carey children advanced apart from granting Henry Carey's wardship to Anne, which was a win-win situation. We know nothing about whose idea that was, but I expect it was Anne's seeing as she then employed Nicholas Bourbon, and she did that, not Henry.
Catherine was appointed maid of honour to Anne of Cleves in 1539, yes, but I can't see how that's evidence of her being the king's daughter. Many years of her standing were appointed as maids of honour. She was of age, she was the daughter of the king's late friend and relative, a man who'd been an esquire of the privy chamber. Her grandfather had been a loyal servant of the crown and had died just a few months earlier.
The Boleyns did not suffer persecution following Anne's fall. Thomas Boleyn lost the privy seal and was out of favour for no longer than a few months. He was back serving the king during the Pilgrimage of Grace and so much was he in favour that it was rumoured that he was going to marry Lady Margaret Douglas, the king's niece. And, when he died in March 1539, Henry VIII paid 16l. 13s. 4d. to his chaplain, William Franklyn, Dean of Windsor, “for certain oraisons, suffrages and masses to be said for the soul’s health of th’erle of Wilts, late deceased”, which is hard evidence that Thomas was high in favour.
Sir Francis Knollys' father was a favourite of both Henry VII and Henry VIII so Francis simply followed in his footsteps at court, as many young men did. His father had been granted Rotherfield Greys in 1514.
Elizabeth did give them great honour. Like her father before her, she was generous to those who served her loyally. The Careys weren't only loyal servants, who sacrificed much in service to her, they were also her first cousins and family was important to Elizabeth. I think it's a huge leap to read more into their burials than Elizabeth simply honouring her closest relatives.
Very thorough! It sounds like something I wrote last week when Lady C compared Meghan Markle to Anne Boleyn. I vehemetly disagree. Fight me!
Red hair will result in a child, if both parents are red haired. However, red hair is a recessive gene. Both my niece and her husband have brown hair, but one of their children has beautiful red hair. That means that both have f them had ancestors who had red hair.
How do u know none of William Careys ancestors had red hair? Recessive traits like red hair can be dormant in a family for upto 7 generations. He had 4 grandparents, 8 great grandparents, 16 great grandparents and thats only going back 4 generations ....how the hell do u know none of his ancestors had red hair? The red hair gene was fairly common amongst royals due to inbreeding as that brings out recessive traits. I severely doubt he wasn't a carrier of red hair ...cause even if an aristocrat didn't have red hair they were likely carriers.
An excellent presentation which is fully grounded in the evidence. I became interested in the Carey marriage because of William Carey’s descent from the Beauforts - and the modern link to the present Royal Family from the marriage of William and Elizabeth.
Sorry - William and Mary Carey!
Thank you, again, for your thorough research, Claire. It has never sat well with me that people think Henry fathered Mary's children. Henry would have acknowledged the fruits of his lions, I'm certain. Even daughters were proof of fertility, if somewhat useless as heirs *cough cough*.
It doesn't sit well with me that people repeat it as fact. I don't believe they were and I have no problem with people saying they might have been.
I think Henry would have acknowledged ANY son he fathered, if for no other reason than as proof that he can produce boys. Therefore, his lack of sons by Catherine of Aragon, is all her fault (even though she did give him a living son. How sad that he died after a few short months.)(Henry would have been a lot less fascinating had the baby grown to adulthood)And, lack of sons by Anne is her fault.
No not just any son. He reportedly had more illegitimate kids, most boys. Just cause he acknowledged 1 boy and wanted him to be heir doesn't mean he would do it with all of them. A legitimate boy will always have a stronger claim, better yet if he comes from a political union. I doubt Henry Carey is his kid but Catherine ...yeah I can see it.
It amazes me every day that so many things that we take as gospel are figments of various authors' imagination. Henry was already larger than life (pun intended!). I honestly think that we want the queens to get the coverage that they got from their ex! A very witty video as always, Claire!
This is a good book that will interest you on this subject. Royal Bastards by Peter Beauclerk-Dewar. So many !!!
Thank you!
I thoroughly enjoy your posts. For my 13:31 whole life I’ve read books, watched movies and tv series, it seems I can’t get enough. I’m with you. I don’t believe Mary had any of Henry’s children. I believe script writers forget babies take 9 months, Henry’s time separating from the Church, took years not months.
Fran
Vancouver 🇨🇦 Canada
That was really interesting...I sort of thought at least one was Henry's but everything you said made sense.
Thank you! There's definitely more of a possibility that Catherine was.
I listened to a podcast where the my tracked the location of the King and Bessie and Mary to see when they were in close proximity to even father the children. Since everyone moved around it made accessibility an interesting discussion.
Oh that's interesting!
Not enough conspiracies to think William Careys kids weren't his.
I think they were his.
As an American descendant of Mary Boleyn myself, through her daughter, Catherine, I really hope Henry VIII was not the father of Mary's children. My ancestry has enough "bad blood" running through it without adding Henry VIII's sins.
oh my
Ha! Yes!
lol!
😂
Me too lol me and my husband are related
Don’t forgot the horrible stuff Henry 7 did to prince from the tower…. It was def Richard… the true king … Henry 7 murdered him imo!!!
My husband is Mary boldens 16th great grandson !!!
Is there actually evidence that Mary Boleyn definitely came home with Mary Tudor from France? Allison Weir pointed to some possible (not concrete, but possible) evidence of her staying on in France, and thus encountering Henry later. She made it sound like there was not firm documentation either way.
She also said that "You can trace a pattern of Henry maintaining Katherine financially throughout her life, making provision for her to have a good marriage," which seems to conflict with your statement that there was only one annuity or grant for Mary...
Not saying Weir is correct, but she did make an interesting case for Catherine (but not Henry) being Henry's daughter, and it seems she agrees about the laundress' daughter being another possible daughter.
William Carey is the father of his wife’s (Mary Boleyn) two children. I have not come across from any possibility. I don’t take Philippa Gregory’s work seriously. Not a fan. Thank you for your video.
I believe so, but we can't know for certain.
@@anneboleynfiles
That’s true, but Henry didn’t claim them like he did with Henry Fitzroy. Maybe he couldn’t because of Anne Boleyn. We can only speculate. I’m glad Elizabeth took such care of Mary’s children.
@@anneboleynfiles Hello; why can't there be DNA testing to confirm or deny the paternity of Mary's children? Isn't that possible?
Reading Gregory's work is like watching The Crown. It can be very entertaining but it's fiction. No one related some of those supposed conversations to anyone in both cases.
Henry Carey is my 13th great grandfather and I sincerely hope he wasn't Henry's son!
Hi cousin, Catherine is my ancestor.
Mary Boleyn is my 13th great grandmother. Catherine Carey is my 12th great grandmother
Loved this
Thank you! So interesting
Thank you!
Thank you for the info. I don't really think either of her children where Henry's. If I were pressed, I might agree that the daughter Katherine might be, but not the son. Henry VIII did tend to acknowledge his sons. So if Mary's son was his, I think he would have acknowledge that. On the other hand, Henry VIII was rather dismissive of his daughter (doted on them from time to time), even de-legitimating with ease.
One if my brothers in-law claims a direct line to Henry VIII through one of the Carey children. I doubted the story. Thank you for clearing it up. We do have ancestors of royal decent to on our side of the family. To those tracing decent back to Mary, keep looking. There might be royals down the Howard line somewhere.
Edward I
The Mary Boleyn affair is keeping us talking and debating for centuries. Especially when there is almost no verified evidence on it.
If only she'd kept a diary!
Why is it that people are so so against close close close relationships, like a man sleeping with two sisters, but he can sleep with his aunt's daughter which is his cousin, he can sleep with that person sister too, he can sleep with that person's cousin as well, honestly it's disgusting why it's so bad for a king to sleep with two sisters however if he sleeps with his own cousin and they have a baby it's just wonderful news
Not gonna lie i was convinced Catherine was at least his kid and even commented it on another of your videos. But after this im inclined to believe they werent. Henry definitely wasnt his kid, Catherine ...not impossible but very unlikely. Thanks for the video.
The culture around mistresses was clearly different in the English court verse the French court. It seems to me that English kings didn't sleep with the wives of their courtiers, unlike in France. If I remember right, one of the reasons King John was so hated was the rumors of him sleeping with his noble's wives.
And French kings could have official mistresses too.
All you have to do is look at the red haired children that came from Catherine Carey. Like Leticia Knollys. And I understand she was a dead ringer for Elizabeth I. Where else did the red hair come from? Elizabeth would NEVER have allowed Leticia the privileges (including her sons) that she bestowed if Leticia was not indeed her true cousin. Where are all the paintings of those that were given honors by the King besides Carey as you mentioned. Why then a portraiture made of the two children (as adults) in very regal clothing? Carey was given so much so that he could support the children of the King and keep his mouth shut. The King had already been through hell and back in trying to legitimize his marriage to Anne, obviously this is how the Protestant church came to reside in England as a result. Having gone through all that, do you think he would have wanted to go through that again in an attempt to legitimize his children? NO. He went to his death still thinking he could get a legitimate heir with a royal marriage, such as Jane Seymour. And, in his mind, when he died, he did have a living heir......not to survive, of course. And there are many of us who do descend from Mary and Henry Tudor that still have the red hair, even to this day.
It would be interesting to find out if any DNA research has been done to check for any illegitimacy.
No, nothing has been done.
They should do a DNA test
Soooo.. I'm actually a double descendant of Mary Boleyn through both of her children. Honestly, I've always thought that a DNA test should be done on the remains of Mary's children just to have the question answered once and for all.
I would really hope Henry wasn't the father, but if he had to be the father of one, I'd guess Catherine would more likely be his.
I think we do not know. It is all speculation. The only shred of "evidence" it seems to me is Lettice Knollys favored Elizabeth a lot, at least some people claimed. If she did, she must have been more than a first cousin once removed but who's to say Katharine Carey's husband was not in some way related to the Tudors. We don't know, and we really don't know if Lettice favored Elizabeth anyway. That could be a legend. Botton line, it could be said Henry would not have acknowledged a bastard daughter, but he would have a son. As Alison Weir said, maybe Katheriene, but not her brother. the only other question I have had is why did it take Mary Boleyn 4 years to conceive a child after marriage? but maybe she did, and those babies died.
Yes, definitely speculation and there can be resemblances between family members like that.
Mary may well have had miscarriages or stillbirths we don't know about as she wasn't that important at the time, so her pregnancies wouldn't appear in any royal records or anything.
I do believe that if Henry VIII had fathered her children, he would have acknowledged at least Henry Carey. As additional evidence that he could father a male child.
When William Carey died why did Henry Carey get nothing?
Carey left his son lands in Essex, Hampshire, Wiltshire, and Buckinghamshire.
Catherine Carey maybe 50/50
Henry Carey very unlikely. Hi
Yes!
I agree, I think Henry Carey was born after Mary's relationship with Henry viii had ended but about Catherine I'm not sure, I think there could be a resemblance to Henry viii in her portrait, and if Mary was his mistress in 1523 it is possible Catherine was his daughter, born the follow year.
It seems rather inconsiderate of Henry to commit adultery with his good friend's wife, shortly after he got them married. Especially when Henry had his pick of young, unmarried women at court. I read that Mary was prettier than Anne, but Anne was more charming, intelligent, and cultured.
@@lisaa.4667Henry was a narcissist. Why would u be surprised? He turned on people easily, his 'friends', his wives and family members. He is definitely the type to sleep with a 'friends' wife.
@@lisaa.4667Men often made good marriages for their mistresses in history. People were weird back then. Some got them married off so illegitimate offspring would be perceived as legitimate. Many were also married off after their relationship with a royal as a 'thank you' for being a mistress.
Sorry I forgot two points I wanted to make.
7. TIMING PATTERNS SHOW RELATIONSHIPS.
This is a standard measuring device in science.
Cause and Effect. The Cause always come before the effect.
She makes the statements repeatedly that Henry VIII rewarded lost of people, seemingly all the time.
Thus the grants to William Carey, and to Francis Knollys don't indicate anything.
This is absured!
Let's look at the facts here.
William Carey. He recieved 4 grants in his life from Henry, all came after his marriage to Mary.
William is 25 years old when he marries and gets his first grant.
He never gets anything from Henry before this.
William was a "favorite" of Henry, yet in his first 25 years of life Henry gave him nothing, NOTHING!!!
William gets nothing from Henry until after he marries Mary.
Looks to me like Mary is the favorite not William.
So her argument is that William's grants mean nothing as Henry is allway giving gifts to William...
NO HE DIDN'T, William Carey got nothing from Henry for 25 years till he marries Mary.
William IS NOT Henry's favorite. Henry give him nothing till he marries Mary his mistress!
Mary is Henry's favoite.
So, William and Mary get married, and William gets his first gift from Henry at 25 years of age.
So, Herny's generosity is now going to lavis gifts on William eh?
Not on your life.
Over the next four years Henry gives William nothing, nada, ziltch, bubkis.
But...
A month before Catherine's birth William gets a second grant from Henry.
Hum?
Then for two more years pass and William gets more nothing from Henry.
until...
two weeks before Henry Careys birth, Henry gives him another grant.
For a favorite of the court Henry doesn't seem to even like William.
He has to married the Kings mistress before He gets anything.
Then he has to have a child with the King's mistress before he gets anything else.
Then he has to have a second kid with the King's mistress before he gets more.
While the last grant was just a disguise to give Henry Carey a Title.
It is obviousl to me that Herny doesn't even care about William, he cares about Mary.
Everything Wiliam gets from Henry revolves around Mary and her children.
If it can be shown that Herny gave gifts like these to others after they got married and had kids,
then you can say this behavior is not unusual and so suggestive.
I haven't hard any proof that Henry always did this for others.
Now Francis Knolly.
Francis was the son of Sir Willam Knolley a minor gentilmen of the court.
Francis is 29 years of age when he Marries Catherin Carey,.
Francis is never given anythign by Herny, then at 29 he marries Catherine and the gifts start rolling in...just like with William.
Ignored, married, then popular with Henry.
Again she says that Herny gives lot of gifts so that Francis got one is nothing.
Wrong, Timing is key.
He has to marry Catherine before he gets anything from Henry, just like with William.
Over 29 years of life, Henry NEVER gave Francis Knolly anything.
He give him nothing UNITL he married Catherine Carey!
Timing shows relationships. Cause and effect.
The truth here is Henry did NOT give out lots of gifts to these two individuals.
She needs to stop saying that.
He gave William and Frances nothing for almost 3 decades, then they married Mary and her daughter Cathering and NOW Henry likes them an gives them gifts.
William is supposed to be a "favorite" of Henry's, not Francis, yet they are treated the same, ignored unilt they marry Mary and her daughter.
And remember is is rumored that both marriages were arranged by Herny.
Cause and Effect... Identical timing patters with both men.
In Scient we call that a relationship, unless it can be shown that this pattern repeats with other people in similar situations to Wiliam and Francis.
8. THE COURT RUMOR MILL.
She claims that there are lots of rumors, if they were all true Herny would have fathered dozens.
I don't know if she is mispeaking or lying on this point but, ONLY 7 children over Henry's lifetime of bedding women, were rumored to be unrecognized children of Herny, not dozens.
If Herny was a "private person" as she writes, that changes nothing. Henry is the King, he is constantly surrounded by courtiers and aids, he lives in a fish bowl.
As she pointed out Henry, the "private Perons" was denied a divorce from the Pope because the Pope, in Rome, knew he'd bedded Mary Bolyen, Anne's sister. Not to private was Henry? The Pope knew and so did all of Europe probably.
Heny lived in a fish bowl, he was always surrounded by people. He couldn't go anywhere without being seen or accompanied. The Court knew what was going on. If Henry had a single daliance with a woman that might go unnotieced but no an affair that lasted for some time.
Here is the list the 7 kids that were rumored to be Henry's but not claimed by him:
1. Thomas Stukley bn. 1520. Herny never admitted to an affair with his mother Jane Pollard, but the Court believed that he'd had an affair and Tom was his because they saw them together and Herny treated her like he treated his known mistresses.
Remember, Henry bedded lots of women only a few are rumored to have had Herny's kids. In these few instances, the Courtiers realized something was different with these women. That does not mean it is true, but they were there, they saw what was going on and how Henry reacted towards people in his court. They saw how he acted towards women they knew Henry was bedding and to those he wasn't.
Obviously they saw the similarities in how Henry treated these 6 women to be separated out for special consideration of the hundreds if not thousand Henry bedded.
This behvor of Kings producing bastards was the norm for Kings, bastards were everywhere by the time Henry is born.
2. Elizabeth Tailboys - Bn. April 1520. She is Bessie Blount's daughter born one year after her brother Fitzroy. Concived while Henry was still bedding her, or so it appeared to the Courtiers, and they were there! They know more than we do today about Henry's doings then, they should be consider a primary source.
3. Catherine Carey bn. 1524.
4. Richard Edwardes - Bn, March 25, 1525. The son of Agnes Blewitt Edwards. Again Henry never admits to a relationship, but they spend enough time together in private that the Courtiers know something was afoote. Henry did not spend quality time with women in private for good conversation. He treated Agnes publically like he did his other mistresses, and the Courtiers saw that she conceived Richard while they were together creating the possibility that he was Henry's.
5. Henry Carey bn. March 4, 1526, 2 years after Catherine.
6. Etherlreda “Audrey” Malte bn. 1527. Daughter of Joan Dingley. The Maltes were minor people, it is suggested that she may have been a launderess.
Henry never openly acknowledged Audrey, BUT, Henry gave John Malte land and properties AFTER Malte recognized Audrey publicly as his own daughter.
Like with William and Farncis, before Audrey John Malte got nothing from Henry, then all of a sudden a nobody in his court gets gifts from Herny. Three peets make a pattern in statistics.
7. John Perrot bn. November 1528 sone of Mary Berkeley a known mistress of Henry's. Concieved while the Courtiers saw they were still together.
I cannot stress enought, over the decades in which the Courtiers saw Herny bedding women, ONLY 6 women were rumored to have had chidren with Henry. To suggest that this small number of suspected illegitimate children is the Courtier's hysteria is rediculous Only 6 over Hernrys lifetime. That is not hysteria.
The Courtiers WERE THERE. Every day, week after week.
They knew Henry's habits and behaviors.
They saw Henry treat these 6 women differently from all the others he bed.
This does not prove they were Henry's kids, they were all married women, at the time.
Only a DNA test on their bones will prove conclusively if they were Henry's kids.
But, the Courteirs were not hystiercal women and men.
They did not accues Henry of having dozens of bastard kids, ONLY 7 in Henry's entire lifetime were rumored to be his bastards.
I'm out and about so don't have time to answer properly, but it's completely untrue that Carey got nothing until he was married to Mary Boleyn. His annuity was granted before he married her. His grants are in keeping with his service record like those of his colleagues in the privy chamber. And the payments for playing tennis and cards etc. with the king prior to his marriage show he was a royal favourite on the rise.
@@anneboleynfiles "His grants are in keeping with his service record like those of his colleagues in the privy chamber."
That is his pay and winnings, not Royal Grants.
In all I've read, William gets only 4 Royal Grants from Herny, all during the affair with Mary.
1522, June 1524, February 1526, and April 1526.
The 1522 Royal Grant is at the start of the affair.
The June 1524 Royal Grant is two months before Catherine's birth.
The Royal Grant on February 20, 1526 is 12 days before Henry Carey's birth.
You have spoken of John Hale's (Vicar of Isleworth), letter to the Council of Apirl 20, 1535 in which he writes"
"I confess the four bills by Mr. Feerne, Mr. Leeke, Mr. Skydmore, and Sir Thos. Mody to be true,
and that by such seditious ways I have maliciously slandered the King and Queen and their
Council; for which I ask forgiveness of God, king Henry VIII., and queen Anne, and shall
continue sorrowful during my life, which stands only in the King's will.
Moreover, Mr. Skydmore dyd show to me yongge Master Care, saying that he was our suffren
Lord the Kynge's son by our suffren Lady the Qwyen's syster, whom the Qwyen's grace myght
not suffer to be yn the Cowrte."
Found in J. S. Brewer's work LETTERS AND PAPERS, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC OF THE REIGN OF HENRY VIII, Vol. 8, 567.
It makes clear the common belief in Henry's court that Henry Carey is Henry VIII's son and is being introduced as Henry VIII's son.
Is it not illegal to do so if it is not true?
Henry VIII never objected to this rumor of Henry Careys birth, why not?
Henry VIII was not a man to be toyed with, he liked to cut people's heads off who toyed with him.
Yet he never objects to those who introduce Herny Carey as his son.
Other letters speak of the Carey children's remarkable resemblance to Henry VIII as well.
The 3rd. Royal Grant, made 12 days before Herny' Carey's birth, includes the Borough of Buckingham, which is given to William Carey in "tail male". Meaning it is to be inherited by William's son!
The Last Royal grant is given 2 months after Mary gives birth to a son, and we all know how much Henry likes sons.
This 4th Royal Grant makes William the Keeper of the Manor, Garden, and Tower of Pleasance at East Greenwich!
Why is this interesting eh?
Sir George Pultenham of Sherfield writes of this tower of Pleasance at East Greenwich saying:
“the King. . . in his barge, went from Westminster to Greenwich
to visit a fair lady whom the king loved, who was lodged in the
tower of the park."
This letter is found in A. G. Estrange's work THE PALACE AND THE HOSPIAL OR CHORNICLES OF GREENWICH, (2 vols., 1886), Vol. I, p. 192; LP IV, 2218 (12), 464 (18); Warnicke, 35, 237-8.
So, two months after Herny Carey was born, Henry VIII, who has been of late, traveling to the Tower of Pleasance at East Greenwich to be with a woman he loves, William Carey, husband to Henry's mistress Mary, is made Keeper of the Tower where Henry's love lives!
That is not a coincidence. It is payment for a son.
William gets no further Royal Grants from Henry and dies of the sweating sickness on June 22, 1528.
In law, there is a principle called "Preponderance of Facts", upon which guilt may be determined in Non-Capital cases.
Looking at those sources left to us from that time, letters, and official records, we know William Carey got no Royal Grants before he married Mary, and none after the affair with Mary ended.
William Carey got his pay and winnings from Henry, yes, but NO Royal Grants before the affair with Mary!
All Royal Grants given to William seem to be linked to Mary, not to William.
The Royal Grants start with the affair; The Royal Grant before Catherine is born; The "tail male" grant of the Borough of Buckingham 12 days before Henry is born; And the Royal Grant making William the Keeper of the tower where Herny's love lives.
All these Royal Grants revolve around Mary and her kids not around William Carey.
All those men chosen by Henry for a Privey appointment are close to him, that is a fact, they're all up-and-comers.
I do not deny the closeness between these 3rd cousins, both descendants of John Beaufort 1st Earl of Somerset.
But, William received NO Royal Grants from Henry until he Married Mary Boleyn!
He got only 4 in the space of Henry's affair with his wife Mary and no more than these 4.
DNA will solve the mystery. Unless, of course, you are related to both the Boleyns AND the Tudors...which i am and although the tree is interesting..it certainly gives off the ick vibe.
The apparel,tattoos and this subject matter seem at odds with one another.
??? I'm talking in 37°C heat so I'm wearing appropriate clothing for that and I'm a historian with tattoos. I'm not sure what you mean.
@@anneboleynfiles
Central air.
A fan.
Cotton blouses.
Did tattoos exist in Tudor England?
Would ladies have had them?
I cannot take you seriously, and there are other Tudor channels.
Give me now leave, to leave thee. Adieu.
@@livingincaptivityIII so I should get air con in my property, wear a cotton blouse and be ink free just to please you? No, I think I'll live how I like to live and please do move on. You might want to avoid Dan Jones too as he has far more tattoos than me but is a well respected historian.
Oh, and they didn't have "central air" in Tudor England, and it's not a big thing here in rural Spain either.
@@anneboleynfiles I like your look. Dan Jones would look cool shirtless, showing off his tats like an ancient Celtic warrior as he lectures about the Plantagenets.