Hey Kyle, regarding the battery question there's much truth to what you said there. The NiMH are in the e-AWD for its better temperature performance in below freezing temperatures. Where as the small Li-ion battery can often be locked out as if it were in limp mode to protect the frozen electrolyte and run solely on the engine until the cabin & battery reaches proper warmth. Regarding longevity, it all has to do with SOC and the discharge rate of each. Li-ion is normally described as more efficient than NiMH partly due to its more flatter discharge curve which allowed Toyota to engineer a smaller battery with a larger operating charge range with the same engine system. Whereas NiMH cells since the 2001 Prius were kept in a moderate 63-40% percent range (it goes to 80% when fully charged and 25% when fully emptied) by the computer. This is because the discharge rates become noticeably higher above 60% and below 40%, it's less efficient and it caused more heat generation (an efficiency loss and cause of battery capacity loss/voltage misbalancing). Personally, I wouldn't go for a Li-ion Prius unless it's a Prime because a larger battery pack can retain more heat as well as use less amp draw for each individual cell. I had friends here in the temperate weather of northern europe who get scared that their car says that the Li-ion battery has restricted use when it gets below 5 degrees celcius in the morning. I'd say it's better for Californian/Floridian climates were a small Li-ion battery can be more easily cooled than the bulkier, more inefficient NiMH.
What would be the weight difference? I would have to assume that the significant loss of fuel economy ( about 5% it seems ) would be down to more than just having a rear motor, especially since that rear motor is out of the picture once cruising speeds are reached. It all seems a bit odd to me in a vehicle with an internal combustion engine. One thing that isn't in short supply is heat so I would have thought you could send some of that heat to the batteries in a winter mode where you warm the car up or drive on the internal combustion only when starting at very low temperatures. I suspect I am missing something like the difficult of "warming through" the batteries rather than heating the outsides.
@@errcoche The nickel metal hydride pack is definitely heavier than a lithium pack. in my car the pack weighs about 120lbs I think. The issues with cold and the lithium and probably also extreme heat I think nickel metal hydride is simply a bit more durable and resistant to abuse. As to being able to heat the battery pack actively. None of the Priuses use a liquid cooling system or Heating system. They are thermally regulated actively by air. There is a fan that grabs air from the cabin blows it over the battery and expels it I think back into the cabin in the 4th gen. In the earlier cars it actually forced the air out of the car. So the problem is you actually wouldn't be able to get any battery warming effect until the cabin heat got warm enough to make a difference. And it takes quite a long time for either heat or cooling to really make a difference in that battery pack. So I think the problem would be you would start the car in a very cold weather and you would immediately have a energy delivery problem. The only way to overcome it will be to run liquid cooling from the combustion engine and even that would still take probably 5 minutes to get really warmed up then you have the problem of needing to turn that coolant off at some point because you do not want 200 deg coolant running through that battery all the time either. when you're trying to keep the battery cool during normal operation. Toyota try to keep the cooling arrangement relatively simple but effective under most circumstances. One interesting thing is that on the nickel metal hydride pack the internal Panasonic modules that they use are the same ones they've used since 2004. I agree with the other guy I think I would prefer the nickel metal hydride pack even though it's heavier and slightly less efficient. Simply because when this car is older there are a huge amount of salvage yard and Ebay battery packs modules that you can go through to grab parts for it. The the lithium packs are much rarer and I suspect a lot more expensive. I've got a 2008 with 355,000 Miles. Still rolling on the original nickel metal hydride pack.. Certainly not a super exciting car to drive. But it's comfortable it's practical it's reliable and it's easy to work on actually. maintenance on the internal combustion side is pretty easy change the oil every 5K change the transmission fluid every 50K. I do all my own maintenance on mine. The car costs me 7 cents per mile that's fuel all maintenance and tires.
Lithium is less effective in cold temperatures. Nickel is better for cold temperatures so it makes sense that the awd system used in snow would have batteries more effective in cold weather.
I agree and more importantly it's not seven horsepower it's 40 lb feet of torque which certainly is enough to get you moving. I think that is the primary goal of this system. From a stoplight when you hit the gas pedal you have a much better chance of reliably accelerating. I do kind of agree with Kyle though also, with decent tires on a regular front wheel drive Prius they go pretty good in the snow anyway. my only complaint on mine is that the trash control system is pretty intrusive especially if the tires are not great. Priuses do not like allowing any kind of wheel spin.
I agree with you Kyle. They really are pretty great cars. In the past they were a bit on the boring side style and performance and handling wise but super practical super reliable and actually pretty easy to work on surprisingly. This generation Prius is a bit funky looking. But it's pretty efficient. And has much better driving Dynamics than the previous models due to a independent rear suspension and much better suspension tuning. The nickel metal hydride pack is probably the more durable battery option. I believe it is more cold and heat resistant than lithium. And since they are only actively air-cooled when the car is operating. I wonder what the long-term result will be of some of these cars if they happen to be in very hot or cold climates. One interesting thing the nickel metal hydride pack still uses the same Panasonic modules inside that they have used since 2004. the good thing about that is if you need to do a battery repair there are lots of used modules available both at salvage yards and on eBay if you feel like trying to do a repair yourself which is not that difficult. I've got a 2008 with 355,000 miles on it. 7 cents per mile is my total cost of operation. That's fuel, all maintenance fluids and tires. Love all your videos and I like the fact that you don't just review electric cars but all kinds of other stuff too. Keep up the great work
Great review, Kyle! ..Tired of so many "cliche car guys" dumping on Prius. It's a tool for a job - and great at it. Personally, I had to have a commuter that interests me more technically, so instead got a 2017 i3 Rex (partly due to your reviews).
I'm not sure but I bet the reason they put a different size battery is because nimh has around a 50% depth of discharge while lithium is like 90%. So in the end it's probably around the same usable power.
I am near Philly and we had a lot of snow this past season. With my Vredestein snows, I had zero issues in my Prius e-AWD... felt more confident than my old Crosstrek.
Where I live AWD/4WD with snow tires is legally required to drive on many of the roads in my area during a good portion of the winter unless you want to put on chains. I hate chains so AWD is a necessity. I have my issues with this car but I begrudgingly like it.
I have a 2021 Prius prime and have no back wiper blade, which really sucks. How'd you get one on yours? It should be a standard feature I think, it's really needed.
Having a small electric motor in the back allows for balanced regineration (5kw I think will smooth the braking experience a lot) I have a awd Honda hybrid and you can not tell when the braking is in regin and when the mechanical breaks apply
It's actually not. If anything the maintenance on the ice side is much easier than most other ice-powered cars particularly transmission maintenance. change the oil every 5 or 7,000 miles I don't know what it is on the 4th gen Prius it's 5k on mine.. Change the transmission fluid every 50,000 miles. There's no filter it's simply a dump and refill 4 quarts Toyota World standard fluid you can get it at Walmart for $20 for a 4qrt jug. Which is what the ttans needs. Brake pads last about 120,000 Miles, I get about 50,000 miles out of a set of tires doing rideshare beating the heck out of my 2008. There's no alternator there's no starter, a couple electric water pumps for both ice cooling and inverter and transmission cooling. On the transmissions there are no wearable items inside the case. It's basically two electric motors with a planetary split device between the two of them. The small electric motor/generator is what starts the gasoline engine and charges the battery when sitting idling. it's directly coupled through that planetary. that one is called mg1. Mg2 is connected to the wheels , and it is on the other side of that planetary. To get varying output ratios between the gasoline engine and the wheels they put different electrical forces on either side of that planetary. That's it. If you looked inside of it it looks a lot like a manual transmission with to electric motors blended in with it. really the only thing that can go wrong with them, is if one of the electric motors fails, Burns a wire etc or a main bearing failure. Both of those generally are caused by the same thing someone failing to change the transmission fluid regularly. I've got a 2008 355,000 Miles. I bought it used with 200,000 and have put 155,000 on it in the last 3 years. Car costs me 7 cents per mile. That's fuel all maintenance and tires. I do all my own maintenance since it's so easy if you had it done at a shop obviously your cost would be a little higher.
They made me decide I didn't want a Prius - I don't know if they are all like the Prius but when I was looking at used Prius Primes, the high resale value and the "HUGLY INTERIOR!!!" made my mind up for me. The two tone interiors are especially hideous.
@@errcoche The fourth generation Prius certainly has some interesting design elements both exterior and interior. The problem is it's a really really good car. It's comfortable it's practical and it's reliable and it's efficient and it's affordable. Since I use my car to earn a living. Those things take primary focus over it being a little ugly on the inside or outside. Honestly I don't really give a crap as long as the car works properly. Currently have a 2008 Prius, I would say the exterior and interior on those is just maybe a little boring perhaps not ugly. Mine has 355,000 miles on it, Still gives me between 45 and 50 MPG. What I really love is the easy maintenance on the internal combustion side. oil change every 5K transmission fluid is a dump and refill every 50K tires last about 50K for me. Brake pads last about 120,000. 7 cents per mile is my total cost that's fuel maintenance and tires. Pretty hard to go wrong. Yep it's boring. Nope I don't give a shit.
Hey Kyle, regarding the battery question there's much truth to what you said there. The NiMH are in the e-AWD for its better temperature performance in below freezing temperatures. Where as the small Li-ion battery can often be locked out as if it were in limp mode to protect the frozen electrolyte and run solely on the engine until the cabin & battery reaches proper warmth.
Regarding longevity, it all has to do with SOC and the discharge rate of each. Li-ion is normally described as more efficient than NiMH partly due to its more flatter discharge curve which allowed Toyota to engineer a smaller battery with a larger operating charge range with the same engine system. Whereas NiMH cells since the 2001 Prius were kept in a moderate 63-40% percent range (it goes to 80% when fully charged and 25% when fully emptied) by the computer. This is because the discharge rates become noticeably higher above 60% and below 40%, it's less efficient and it caused more heat generation (an efficiency loss and cause of battery capacity loss/voltage misbalancing).
Personally, I wouldn't go for a Li-ion Prius unless it's a Prime because a larger battery pack can retain more heat as well as use less amp draw for each individual cell. I had friends here in the temperate weather of northern europe who get scared that their car says that the Li-ion battery has restricted use when it gets below 5 degrees celcius in the morning. I'd say it's better for Californian/Floridian climates were a small Li-ion battery can be more easily cooled than the bulkier, more inefficient NiMH.
What would be the weight difference? I would have to assume that the significant loss of fuel economy ( about 5% it seems ) would be down to more than just having a rear motor, especially since that rear motor is out of the picture once cruising speeds are reached.
It all seems a bit odd to me in a vehicle with an internal combustion engine. One thing that isn't in short supply is heat so I would have thought you could send some of that heat to the batteries in a winter mode where you warm the car up or drive on the internal combustion only when starting at very low temperatures. I suspect I am missing something like the difficult of "warming through" the batteries rather than heating the outsides.
@@errcoche
The nickel metal hydride pack is definitely heavier than a lithium pack.
in my car the pack weighs about 120lbs I think.
The issues with cold and the lithium and probably also extreme heat I think nickel metal hydride is simply a bit more durable and resistant to abuse.
As to being able to heat the battery pack actively.
None of the Priuses use a liquid cooling system or Heating system. They are thermally regulated actively by air. There is a fan that grabs air from the cabin blows it over the battery and expels it I think back into the cabin in the 4th gen. In the earlier cars it actually forced the air out of the car.
So the problem is you actually wouldn't be able to get any battery warming effect until the cabin heat got warm enough to make a difference. And it takes quite a long time for either heat or cooling to really make a difference in that battery pack. So I think the problem would be you would start the car in a very cold weather and you would immediately have a energy delivery problem. The only way to overcome it will be to run liquid cooling from the combustion engine and even that would still take probably 5 minutes to get really warmed up then you have the problem of needing to turn that coolant off at some point because you do not want 200 deg coolant running through that battery all the time either. when you're trying to keep the battery cool during normal operation.
Toyota try to keep the cooling arrangement relatively simple but effective under most circumstances.
One interesting thing is that on the nickel metal hydride pack the internal Panasonic modules that they use are the same ones they've used since 2004. I agree with the other guy I think I would prefer the nickel metal hydride pack even though it's heavier and slightly less efficient. Simply because when this car is older there are a huge amount of salvage yard and Ebay battery packs modules that you can go through to grab parts for it. The the lithium packs are much rarer and I suspect a lot more expensive.
I've got a 2008 with 355,000 Miles.
Still rolling on the original nickel metal hydride pack..
Certainly not a super exciting car to drive. But it's comfortable it's practical it's reliable and it's easy to work on actually. maintenance on the internal combustion side is pretty easy change the oil every 5K change the transmission fluid every 50K. I do all my own maintenance on mine. The car costs me 7 cents per mile that's fuel all maintenance and tires.
0:50 There's nothing nice about a touchscreen interface. Base trim Prius Prime is specced with the best interface.
Lithium is less effective in cold temperatures.
Nickel is better for cold temperatures so it makes sense that the awd system used in snow would have batteries more effective in cold weather.
The seats are very comfortable. I’m 6’3
I'm 6'5" and have a Prime and it's very comfortable. Lots of headroom and I actually don't have the seat all the way back.
I thought the reason why they use the nickel metal before the update was because of longevity and temperature
Hi Kyle, the safety suite is standard across the board for all Toyota’s. I have a Rav4 and the only one I turned off was the lane assist / centering.
7 HP is more than several guys pushing when the car is stuck.
It's 7 horses - that should be enough to get you going.
I agree and more importantly it's not seven horsepower it's 40 lb feet of torque which certainly is enough to get you moving. I think that is the primary goal of this system. From a stoplight when you hit the gas pedal you have a much better chance of reliably accelerating.
I do kind of agree with Kyle though also, with decent tires on a regular front wheel drive Prius they go pretty good in the snow anyway. my only complaint on mine is that the trash control system is pretty intrusive especially if the tires are not great. Priuses do not like allowing any kind of wheel spin.
7 horses is very powerful
People be putting 1.5" strut spacers on these and go rock crawling.
I agree with you Kyle. They really are pretty great cars. In the past they were a bit on the boring side style and performance and handling wise but super practical super reliable and actually pretty easy to work on surprisingly. This generation Prius is a bit funky looking. But it's pretty efficient. And has much better driving Dynamics than the previous models due to a independent rear suspension and much better suspension tuning.
The nickel metal hydride pack is probably the more durable battery option. I believe it is more cold and heat resistant than lithium. And since they are only actively air-cooled when the car is operating. I wonder what the long-term result will be of some of these cars if they happen to be in very hot or cold climates.
One interesting thing the nickel metal hydride pack still uses the same Panasonic modules inside that they have used since 2004.
the good thing about that is if you need to do a battery repair there are lots of used modules available both at salvage yards and on eBay if you feel like trying to do a repair yourself which is not that difficult.
I've got a 2008 with 355,000 miles on it.
7 cents per mile is my total cost of operation. That's fuel, all maintenance fluids and tires.
Love all your videos and I like the fact that you don't just review electric cars but all kinds of other stuff too. Keep up the great work
Great review, Kyle!
..Tired of so many "cliche car guys" dumping on Prius. It's a tool for a job - and great at it.
Personally, I had to have a commuter that interests me more technically, so instead got a 2017 i3 Rex (partly due to your reviews).
I'm not sure but I bet the reason they put a different size battery is because nimh has around a 50% depth of discharge while lithium is like 90%. So in the end it's probably around the same usable power.
All those fancy good to have settings available in 2011 model??
Is this good for driving in the snow? I travel to ski around New England.
I am near Philly and we had a lot of snow this past season. With my Vredestein snows, I had zero issues in my Prius e-AWD... felt more confident than my old Crosstrek.
I genuinely haven't enjoyed a car review video until now... Thumbs up! :)
Where I live AWD/4WD with snow tires is legally required to drive on many of the roads in my area during a good portion of the winter unless you want to put on chains.
I hate chains so AWD is a necessity.
I have my issues with this car but I begrudgingly like it.
Where is that? Alaska?
6:32 where is this place?
I have a 2021 Prius prime and have no back wiper blade, which really sucks. How'd you get one on yours? It should be a standard feature I think, it's really needed.
Does it flat tow behind motorhome.
Having a small electric motor in the back allows for balanced regineration (5kw I think will smooth the braking experience a lot) I have a awd Honda hybrid and you can not tell when the braking is in regin and when the mechanical breaks apply
How can i buy this if this is reviewed from out of spec?
you didn't show the truck
Great information on that car, in staying all electric or all ICE.
Just seems like a maintenance nightmare with two propulsion systems.
not really toyota is reliable. and once they come out with an ev ... oooohhh babyyy
It's actually not. If anything the maintenance on the ice side is much easier than most other ice-powered cars particularly transmission maintenance.
change the oil every 5 or 7,000 miles I don't know what it is on the 4th gen Prius it's 5k on mine..
Change the transmission fluid every 50,000 miles.
There's no filter it's simply a dump and refill 4 quarts Toyota World standard fluid you can get it at Walmart for $20 for a 4qrt jug. Which is what the ttans needs.
Brake pads last about 120,000 Miles,
I get about 50,000 miles out of a set of tires doing rideshare beating the heck out of my 2008.
There's no alternator there's no starter, a couple electric water pumps for both ice cooling and inverter and transmission cooling. On the transmissions there are no wearable items inside the case. It's basically two electric motors with a planetary split device between the two of them. The small electric motor/generator is what starts the gasoline engine and charges the battery when sitting idling.
it's directly coupled through that planetary. that one is called mg1.
Mg2 is connected to the wheels , and it is on the other side of that planetary. To get varying output ratios between the gasoline engine and the wheels they put different electrical forces on either side of that planetary. That's it. If you looked inside of it it looks a lot like a manual transmission with to electric motors blended in with it. really the only thing that can go wrong with them, is if one of the electric motors fails, Burns a wire etc or a main bearing failure. Both of those generally are caused by the same thing someone failing to change the transmission fluid regularly.
I've got a 2008 355,000 Miles.
I bought it used with 200,000 and have put 155,000 on it in the last 3 years.
Car costs me 7 cents per mile. That's fuel all maintenance and tires.
I do all my own maintenance since it's so easy if you had it done at a shop obviously your cost would be a little higher.
ITS AN AWD ITS SNOWING WHY NOT TAKE IT ON SNOWY ROADS AND SEE HOW IT HANDLES?
LIKE
Toyota interiors suck
They made me decide I didn't want a Prius - I don't know if they are all like the Prius but when I was looking at used Prius Primes, the high resale value and the "HUGLY INTERIOR!!!" made my mind up for me. The two tone interiors are especially hideous.
@@errcoche
The fourth generation Prius certainly has some interesting design elements both exterior and interior.
The problem is it's a really really good car. It's comfortable it's practical and it's reliable and it's efficient and it's affordable.
Since I use my car to earn a living. Those things take primary focus over it being a little ugly on the inside or outside. Honestly I don't really give a crap as long as the car works properly.
Currently have a 2008 Prius, I would say the exterior and interior on those is just maybe a little boring perhaps not ugly. Mine has 355,000 miles on it,
Still gives me between 45 and 50 MPG.
What I really love is the easy maintenance on the internal combustion side. oil change every 5K transmission fluid is a dump and refill every 50K tires last about 50K for me. Brake pads last about 120,000.
7 cents per mile is my total cost that's fuel maintenance and tires. Pretty hard to go wrong. Yep it's boring. Nope I don't give a shit.