Street Fighter 1 being so ass that even when simplified it doesn't work properly is not only fitting but fuckin' hilarious Also, one thing you missed with SF4 3D is that the touch screen isn't the only way to map specials to one button. You can literally map any button to any action, the A button can be an auto-flash-kick for example, and its just as busted as you'd think
SF4 Mobile, which is somewhat of a Mobile port of the 3DS game? has controls that resemble SF6's modern control, especially for charge characters instead of an instant special move, you still need to charge down or back, you just don't need to press up or forward, and simply just do the attack buttons after the charge
Capcom back in '87 was thinking more towards mashing. Funnily enough, there was someone who actually calculated the frame data for it and why it felt so ass. Basically, instead of the movement reliance we're use to, it relies on the button, which is backwards nowdays.
Btw in some 3ds emulators you can set a macro to press on the touch screen in certain spots, meaning you can assign the 3ds one button specials to an actual button.
As a very casual fighter guy: easy modes are great. Not always the best for competition play, but definitely a good option. Idol Showdown shout-out was fun to see.
Was hoping to hear you talk about the tomfoolery of CvS2 on Xbox and GameCube. Face buttons for system mechanics, triggers for normals and the right stick for specials AND supers. Maybe the most insane control scheme for a 2d fighter that was trying to be "easy operation"
I've only ever played 3-4 button fighters, so my hands only really acclimate well to pressing 4 buttons beside eachother instead of reaching up or down, so modern controls lets me play SF6 like I would UNI or Guilty Gear while also still letting me perform motion inputs, I've greatly appreciated it's inclusion and it's helped me get into Street Fighter as a series.
But Guilty Gear uses 5 buttons? Arguably 6 if you include the Dash button in GGST, which is effectively required to play the game once you reach a certain level.
@@xetsumathe only thing you won’t be able to use is Dust, which, depending on the character, isn’t that big of a hindrance. (Edit: this part’s wrong. I’m stupid. Forgot about Burst. Even then, you can still put it on macro) At least it’s not anywhere near as important as your main 4 buttons. Everything else is just a macro. You can still input that stuff using the face buttons. Street Fighter, by default, has 6 main buttons. That’s where the problem lies for them. They probably have troubles getting accustomed to the triggers and bumpers. And when they HAVE to use them to access some of the most important tools in their arsenal, that‘s where things are gonna become difficult
@@KeDe1606One character in one game which isn't even right... in strive it is used for grabs, burst, and wild assault, which the latter 2 are still used. This isn't even mentioning Accent core and XRD the other 2 popular GG games.
@@muckdriver I didn’t say that you never have to use it. Where did you get that idea from? Just that you use it way less regularly than any one of your face buttons. Tell me, in your average game of Guilty Gear, doesn’t matter which one, which move do you use more: stand Slash, or Burst? Not even any other move that you initiate with the slash button, just 5S. Edit: also, about that first sentence, would it have been that difficult to actually explain why I’m wrong? At that point, you may as well have just said pickle
Was it SF2 that had the "magic hadoken" thing where hitting punch had a 1/256 chance to throw a fireball, presumably to teach people that there were those cool-ass special moves you could do?
One reason I really appreciate the choice of "easy" controls (particularly SF6 modern variant) isn't just casual or a possible comp advantage, but because it makes the game more access to those with certain muscle conditions in their hands. There's a whole video on why motion inputs are interesting but debatably not the best, and that (individuals with conditions that make it hard, painful or impossible to utilize motion inputs) is inarguably the strongest point against them.
It's really not. The vast majority of people don't have those conditions, and the ones that care enough will find a way to play through their disability (BrolyLegs). Not saying there shouldn't be easier controls for accessibility reasons, especially if there's going to be a single player mode like World Tour, but those easier controls should NEVER upset mechanical designs or make characters better by using them. See SF4 3DS Guile. Or Modern Gief, and the 2% of handicapped players aren't an excuse for bad simplification.
@@espurrseyes42 Did I say anything about bad simplification? Like really, you're take from this was "every game should have some form of simplified controls, even if they're bad" rather than "I think having the option is good for expanding the FGC in an inclusive manner, allowing more to play. Though this should be balanced properly." given I specifically highlighted SF6 which has the system balanced out in multiple ways and is arguably the best iteration of modern inputs in any fighting game TO DATE, I have no clue how you misconstrued this that badly.
@@joghnythegurue2710 My take is "easier controls should NEVER upset mechanical designs or make characters better by using them.". It was right there in front of you, yet you missed it somehow.
I understand the need to bring new players fo fighting games, but I was practicing hours a day to make pretzel motions inthe Fatal Fury and KOF series, so... I get a bit salty. But hey, listen: the *feeling* when you learn and pull off super moves and nasty specials by putting some hard work is amazing and I wouldn't trade it for anything. Just recently I got SF 6 (to play as Terry Bogard soon!), and am having fun playing Manon (I know she's bottom tier) in classic mode.
I feel the same as well. I get that new players wouldn't really have fun if Modern controls doesn't exist, but when you want to play a fighting game you are DEFINTELY gonna put time into command moves and combos for HOURS. I am sure that the modern controls is great and all but it really takes away the satisfaction of finally pulling off a combo that you struggle with the most. And I am so glad that I am not the only one who got the game just because of Terry Bogard lmfao, I have played most SF and KOF games but I liked KOF more. Although I was a bit tempted seeing Akuma for DLC.
@@YasakaAlvavus0727 Ah, a fellow SNK fan! I too have been in team SNK since the early 90ies because of their focus on the story of the game and of the characters. But then Verse happened and suddenly... "Somehow Palpatine has returned". I'm still on KOF XV daily, though. Hope to see you there someday!
@@lampad4549 Yeah... I feel salty because the fighting game community was a kind of secret cabal of players who studied frames, hibtoxes and praticed for hours to pull cool stuff off. But games need new players, or else they just wither away.
I think the closest to Modern Control SF6 would be the control scheme in the mobile phone port of SF4: just overall less attacks at the cost of instant specials and supers, though charge attacks do require charge.
There's a certain revelatory irony in the fact that in order to "dumb down" a game the Developers need to put a lot of time, thought, and effort into how they are going to expand accessibility. Good for them. Smart accessibility options will always improve a game.
Was hoping you’d talk about the iOS version of SF4, which has a punch, kick, focus, and special! It’s really interesting cause to do EX moves you still have to do the input, but then use the special move button. In addition, you just touch the HUD on either super or ultra to do that move, though I think charge character still have to charge to do them. It’s a really fun and unique port, with its own trials as well!
I know it's not directly related to the main topic but that point on Ed being so open ended in 6 is something I felt IMMEDIATELY online because it felt like every Ed had a different gameplan when fighting them which just makes for a fun matchup mentally. It's probably the most I've really felt an opponent's character expression online.
I remember when I was younger and not super into fighting games playing the crap out of mobile street fighter 4 and spamming the special move button because I was too dumb to memorize inputs. Good times.
Good video, but just a heads up for SF2T Revial, if I remember correctly there were remapping options for the buttons that would either do hold buttons for heavy or set two buttons to heavy.
Granblue has the option for regular and easy specials at the same time, though you can completely turn off the ability to do them manually, but not turn off easy. In the vanilla version, you had longer cooldowns as a punishment for using the easy input, but they changed that in Rising so there's no downside, and you get a damage boost if you do the manual motions outside of a cancel from a normal (so raw and in juggles). And yeah, no charge required for charge characters. It was a pure buff for characters like Charlotta in Rising. I don't like having to hit two buttons and a direction for a different strength of the move when the motion and one button is actually easier, especially on pad. Blade Arcus had an item you could equip in the second version that also activated easy inputs, and that would become the standard in Blade Strangers, where you still need to hit several buttons for different strength moves. They also had Rick in Blade Arcus as a character that only used easy inputs, which then meant he could have easy input mode activated on him in the updated version. Both games predate SF6 and Granblue. There was also Blazblue with the Stylish mode that gave you auto combos and a special move button, and Mai being an easy input only character. Again, predating SF6.
I feel like Xrd might be an interesting game to look at regarding this topic. Of course there's Jack-O, who just... has 1-button specials (that eat up meter), which is just one of many unorthodox facets to her kit, but also the Stylish Mode which in my opinion is... quite weird. Autocombos, semi-automatic blocking (except it doesn't block lows so....) a special button and a whopping *_20%_* penalty to damage taken, something that feels oddly punishing for a supposedly beginner-friendly mode.
xrd stylish is literally just training wheels, it's there to help complete beginners familiarize themselves with the game feel & controls and to give people unfamiliar with the character roster a simple way to just pick up any (well, most, but that's another can of worms entirely) character and do reasonably okay with them you're not meant to actually continue playing with stylish on after the first hundred hours and i think it does a reasonable enough job at simultaneously easing new players in and discouraging its overuse or relying too much on it
@@richardvlasek2445 I personally think it actually does the opposite. I have witnessed multiple people be completely turned off from trying to learn Technical because of how incredibly jarring the switch from Stylish is. It messes with multiple fundamental skills. Blocking works differently, and you aren't taught how to confirm off of your hits at all, same applies to some system mechanics. Stylish doesn't encourage offensive use of RCs, throws or learning the Gatling system, which is a huge problem in my opinion. It feels like Stylish has the same issues as DBFZ autocombos except turned up to eleven.
I prefer how guilty gear strive teaches you how to do specials. Instead of the clutter it's much more simplified. It doesn't have a tone arrows for directions. It's sleek and easy to look at and see how to do them.
was hoping you mentioned the godawful input shortcut system from the vita port of street fighter x tekken where you only ever activate it accidentally because you do them by touching the back of the vita, which is where your fingers are gripping it
Imo easy input modes are great but it’s also important to make sure there’s a tradeoff that limits how much you can get out of 1-button antiairs. I’m personally making a 6-button game and my current plan is to tie some advanced system mechanics to HP+HK that lower level players won’t immediately see a use for, then adding a control mode that lets you instead set HP+HK to perform specials. I’m not sure how it’ll go in practice but the idea is “newer players don’t have to worry about motion inputs OR get overwhelmed by having to manage their resources, but as they get better, the game starts heavily encouraging them to switch over to motions right around the point when they feel ready to learn them”
At any level, except novice, you really should be able to hit motion inputs at a pretty high rate. It's just not really the execution hurdle it's sometimes made out to be. Also it's not the game, sure sometimes there's a play where someone gets a motion super out on reaction and it's nuts, but for the most part, fighting games aren't about getting that dp motion more than your opponent. Charge is different, having to manage a charge adds additional things to deal with in a game. Like hiding a charge or planning for the charge move. Same with negative edge moves, not that they really exist in sf
Modern characters in SF6 don’t really change too much from their Classic control counterparts. Like my main Modern M. Bison only loses 5 normals and his Hover Kick. As someone who plays GBVS Rising, modern controls are something I adore having in SF6.
Capcom vs SNK on the GC/PS2 also has something like this where it's like SF4 on the 3DS...except it's even more busted. You only have 2 heavy buttons being your heavy punch and heavy kick but that's NOT a fair trade off when you can just throw out Sonic Boom's, Flash kick's, and do frame one supers all with just your right stick.
Honestly my opinion of easy inputs is that theyre great as a tool to get someone past a certain point, but if theyre not severely nerfed out of competitive play they become the standard. Risings simple inputs are a perfect example of this. There used to be a way longer cooldown on simple inputs in base game, but Rising removed it in favor of doing marginally less damage. This means that now special inputs are the preferred input mode for reactions in nearly every single situation. I dont particularly love it for this reason, because it feels like at this point they want Rising to not have motion inputs and they just give you a small reward for using them just to keep people who are used to them playing. It feels like theyre trying to have their cake and eat it too. But honestly, simple inputs not being balanced properly are the last of my worries when it comes down to modern fighting games. Id argue SF6 is the best designed game out of the bunch, except for its explosiveness, the Drive system is well thought out and feels like the game was designed with it in mind. Cant say the same for Risings System mechanics and for Strives Wild Assault system. Before devs start working on balancing simple inputs out, Id rather them make sure the game theyre making is fun to play and doesnt feel like anyone can win no matter what.
I'm surprised you didn't mention Power Rangers BftG. All the specials are "single direction + special button" and the ultras are single button as well. And that game is hype
Ed functioning like everyone else in SF6 is a bit sad imo, cause I think his SF5 control scheme is a fair bit cleaner and more elegant than how SF6 modern works. Also I think that if you wanted to have non-motion and motion controls in the same game on the equal level, having the controls be specific to the character is the way to go imo. If you have both for all characters, one is usually going to end up being the "real one", like while modern has been used in competition it's quite niche and for very specific use case and you don't even play without motions in modern usually because you can't control special move versions without motions.
I’m cool with modern inputs because while I hate to admit it, a lot of the design behind motion inputs is kind of antiquated. But I really don’t like it being bolstered as an accessibility option. We had players like BrolyLegs (R.I.P.) competing in big tournaments and Dogs doing Hadoukens. They’re not that hard (except for full circles and pretzels ig lol). I think Modern controls are a cool option that’s implemented, but I also think that at their core they reinforce instant gratification a bit too much and the idea that fighting games are about winning rather than improving, which just doesn’t fit for such arcadey games. They already made up for the inherent arcadey-ness with the loads of single player content. Like Street Fighter is incredibly simple, it’s 2 characters fighting on a straight line. The reason Smash gets away with not using inputs is because there’s a lot to it. Motion inputs and tricky combos are practically the only things keeping these games from being boring. I don’t know, maybe I’m wrong, but as well as Capcom implemented them in SF6 there’s still inherent design flaws. I want to be proven I’m wrong lol
@@toyinbode4368 They were basically no more than cheat codes in the original game and they were used as a way to keep people in arcades from SF2 onwards by an adding another layer of complexity.
@@Change51 Doesn't sound like a good reason to call it antiquated. "They were used as a way to keep players in arcades" - good gameplay does that, too.
@@toyinbode4368 I meant that they give the games substance in a way only they can. SF2 came out when people were starting to get tired of arcades because console games had more to offer, so it was designed in a way that even with its simple match based arcade gameplay, players would spend a lot of time trying to perfect their execution, and get as much time out of it as a console game. Of course, now, this doesn’t really matter because all fighting games launch on consoles now with loads of content and modes to choose from.
Looking back at these just proved how well designed and thought out modern controls are, I'm happy to see Capcom having the balls to put a system that always failed into one of their biggest series
Modern controls on low-mid level is actually busted. Being able to do large damage combos into super by holding a button and mashing another with no chance of dropping is not fun to fight against. At all. This could’ve been fixed by allowing the player to filter out modern or filter out classic whenever you go online.
Get better at the game or use the modern controls, is there actual evidence to prove that players that use classic loose a lot more likely to modern controls? If all it takes to determine whether you loose a match or not depends on being able to pull off moves it might just be a skill issue at that point
Hahaha modern controls auto combos suck! Look if u don’t want to use M controls and stick to classic, just sit down and learn the basic bnb combos, it’ll do more damage than any auto combo.
Its not about "gittin' gud". Modern controls provide an absolutely unmitigated advantage versus normal controls. Assuming both players have equal skill levels, the modern controls don't require multiple directional inputs to do a special, and allow access to a one button auto-combo, obviously incentivizing button mashing; this means the modern player's attack will always come out faster than a player performing a comparable move with classic controls & they'll have access to essentially undroppable auto-combos because zero execution skill is required (and that's not to mention how combo structuring/routing in street fighter IS SHIT TO BEGIN WITH). The modern player doesn't care about a few negligible omissions from their moveset because their character's best tools are still present & only one button away, and the moves that aren't can still be performed by doing the classic input (what!?!). Add in SF6's laughably bad input buffer, and the classic control player is fighting a two-front war against his human opponent AND the game's mechanics. I know all the Maximillians and other FGC-adjacent influencers will tell you that there is no modern control advantage, but even the slightest bit of critical thinking should debunk their position. Since capcom isn't going to address (or even acknowledge) any of the game's mechanical shortcomings, the least they could do is give us a fucking modern control filter during matchmaking. Until then we really shouldn't consider sf6 to be anything more than a party game.
@@sofachrome I don’t think modern controls have a large advantage in high level play, because they can already do all the combos and inputs with little to no chance of dropping. It’s just the lower mid level which modern provides a large advantage. However I do think SF6 is a fantastic fighting game, calling it a party game is in my opinion insane
The problem with modern controls, and really simplifications in general, is that they can't actually work unless the game is designed with them in mind from the ground up. On paper I don't mind the idea making games more accessible. But in practice there's always some sort of compromise. It's the inevitable concessions that rub me the wrong way. Command grabs are probably the most obvious example. Sure the SPD input was difficult, but these moves were generally the fastest in the game. They weren't just balanced, they had utility. They could reliably be used defensively to interrupt gaps or punish poorly spaced moves. In a way they where even better than dps since you had to commit to an option to avoid them. But now that they're balanced around simplified controls they're much slower and much less useful to compensate. At this point command grabs are just high risk mixup tools, and Grapplers are just awkard rushdown characters with high health and damage in lieu of a unique gameplan. Sure on paper this is still balanced, but in practice Grapplers are almost always strictly worse, rather than offering one among many valid playstyles. In a way, the complainers were absolutely right, Modern controls fundamentally changed the game. Choosing Classic controls doesn't change the fact that I can't choose a character with a 2 frame SPD. Now you could argue that the trade-off was worth it, but I'm sick of getting gaslit that modern design is an unmitigated good.
@@Putnam3145 I was speaking about simplifications generally, hence why I didn't mention Street Fighter or Zangief specifically. Though looking back the last paragraph pretty much is singling out SF6's Modern controls. While SFV didn't have Modern controls, it still deliberately streamlined and simplified parts of the gameplay. And there are other games that treat grapplers similarly, Strive Pot is a great example. I still think the overall point stands, even if I didn't do the best job of conveying it. Modern games aren't the same thing but simpler, they're fundamentally different. Whether you like them or not you can't argue that they're the same as they've always been and the complainers are just looking at the past with rose tinted glasses.
I'd argue DP is a better example for how simple commands can mess with a game's balance. There's a whole video talking about One Button DPs and how they forced P4A players to play in awkward ways out of fear of getting Instant Reversal'd. And even ignoring that, there's 3D Guile, spamming Booms at an abnormal rate, then easily Flash Kicking you when you try to jump over them.
easy execution modes are really cool is not just an accessibility thing skill wise but also for people who may want to get into fighting games but have things like carpel tunnel that makes the motions most fighting games require painful
I understand that lowering the barrier to people having fun is a great thing, but it feels bad seeing legacy skills potentially become irrelevant, because fighting gamea are so hecking *fun,* but now its changing a core component of them
this is demonstrably not the case, very few players are competing at a high level with modern controls. legacy skills also run deeper than just being able to dp on command
@@astray683 oh I know that for sure, hell, I play in tournies myself. I'm not making the claim that they are currently irrelevant, but that as games may continue further in that direction, the skill matters less and in some games, modern-esque controls are the only option. Which is great, be what you wanna be! But ... yeah
@@itloaf some games may choose to implement easy controls or no motions at all (2xko) but motions aren't going anywhere in sf (the biggest fighting game by far). plus these other games are designed specifically around lack of motion inputs. the technical requirements are lowered but those games aren't inherently "less skillful" they just emphasize other skills
@@astray683 for sure! I never claimed that motion inputs were "more or less skillful," I just personally like motion inputs and the the things that go with them. They're not going anywhere for now, but who knows what the future may hold. There are many franchises and genres of games that I once enjoyed that (rightfully) changed because they found something new and popular to do that made me fall out of love with them. I just don't want that to happen for fighting games in the future, too
14:30 YOU ARE GRAVELY MISTAKEN. SF4 3D was BUSTED. Imagine Fighting Guile with no charge and Blanka with no odd motions. It was hell. I still had fun and only played Ibuki, Makoto and Juri because I will never play high tiers if I don't resonate with them, it's unfun. Having a fighting game that had online in your pocket was cool though.
Always thought arbitrary execution barriers were dumb. Imagine an FPS where you have to input the konami code to reload. Sure its something you can practice. And tournament ppl will get their reload down to 15 frames. But it adds no strategic depth.
It's literally not arbitrary though, and motion inputs have been easy since SF2. Special moves are designed around their inputs to define when and how you can use them. FPS games have execution barriers anyway for things like aiming at fast moving targets or quick movement. There is nothing wrong with a game genre asking you to have higher execution than your average Sony first party movie game. Imagine if I asked a musical instrument to make itself "more accessible" and to remove its "arbitrary execution requirements". That would be a stupid and laughable thing to ask, and would also remove a lot of the satisfaction that comes from practicing and getting better at playing it. If you don't want to hone your executional skill and you'd rather have results instantly granted to you, fighting games simply are not for you. There's a million other games that will give you the instant gratification you're looking for instead.
@@mallow2902 you missed my point. Execution barriers are great. Execution barriers that don't add any strategic depth are not. Monkey Ball is the best example the controls couldn't be simpler but probably 90% of its playerbase never saw the endgame content. Clicking heads requires knowing where the opponent is likely to be, which is a strategic skill.
@@letsmakeit110 in no particular order: -You can't fire a Sonic Boom while walking forward because of its motion, so to compensate, it recovers faster than an average projectile. The motion input puts the move's strong properties in check. -DPs have the motions they do to prevent you from doing them while blocking, but most characters have a less risky but also less rewarding normal that they can do while blocking in order to anti-air, so you can make a decision on which to go for based on a risk/reward analysis depending on your level of executional skill. -Harder combos often reward you with higher damage, but are obviously easier to drop in high pressure situations. However, most characters have easier combos that are more consistent but give less reward. Thus, you can make a decision on which combos to go for in high pressure situations depending on your level of confidence to nail the harder combo. Remove the executional barrier and you just always do the max damage combo with no risk or effort. -The same goes for offense outside of combos. Urien in Third Strike for example gets unblockables after a knockdown with Aegis Reflector, but the setup to get a guaranteed combo after the knockdown with that unblockable is extremely difficult. Instead, a Urien player may choose to go for a mixup that isn't guaranteed, but is much easier to perform. There's pros and cons to each decision. -Supers have more complex inputs to reduce the likelihood of you doing them accidentally and wasting meter when you don't want to. It's also a similar case to DPs as mentioned above: their inputs determine when and how they can be used. -All special moves and supers have their frame data tailored around how long it takes to input the command for the move. The reason one-button reversals are so hated is because not only is it easier to react with them, but they come out faster than with a motion input, and in a game like Street Fighter 6 where the move itself is the same between classic and modern, it means that modern controls literally just have objectively better reversals than classic. Although admittedly modern isn't making classic obsolete for other reasons, but I use this example to point out how this can be an issue. -An example an actually truly arbitrary execution barrier is L-cancels in Super Smash Bros. It's arbitrary because there's literally no reason not to L-cancel the landing recovery of your aerials. To not do so simply gets you punished. Removing it from the game actually changes nothing about how the game flows, and nothing needs to be balanced around it. I don't expect any of this to change your mind, people don't generally change their minds when arguing on the internet.
modern controls are fine, they simply deserve their own ranked mode. idk wtf capcom was thinking in making - auto-hit confirm - auto-combo - instant special - instant super - vicariously making 5MK and 5HK nearly useless unless within *perfect* range (no special cancel on those buttons for most characters, so if they DI youre screwed. this is easily fixed by making DI *always* able to be used as a counter attack to another DI, but here we are). - the decision to make sure this can not happen is so modern players have an easier time not getting fucked, cause their buttons auto throw out good buttons. garbage.
modern controls is still the worse control scheme despite all these things lmao, very few top players use the control scheme and if you can't beat modern players at your own rank it's just a skill issue. you have to engage with modern characters slightly differently, similar to how you would treat Ryu and Zangief differently
I feel a lot of the problems that occur due to modern controls can be averted by allowing players to choose to fight again their own control scheme only
@@Wade_in_your_water there aren't any problems that occur due to fighting modern controls. you just need to treat modern characters as different characters entirely and play accordingly. if you can't beat a modern player, that's a skill issue.
@@Wade_in_your_water official tournaments don't separate modern and classic users and have no issues, and there are only a few notable modern players at the top level at all. if modern was truly so good, then more pros would use it, simple as
As a bottom level player: Modern controls are cheating. Doing a full confirm into level 3 by just mashing buttons just feels unfair. But apart from the auto combos its fun
all these easy control methods do is ease the amount of practice people need to get into the "real game". the real game isn't knowing how to do combos more than your opponent, it's winning neutral, pressing offense, responding to your opponent, etc. literally everything except combos
@@astray683it helps there too, special moves are apart of neutral and offense and not having the risk to mess up those inputs takes away stress and just is better. Same with using supers to escape pressure, pressing two buttons is easier that two quarter circles.
@@Wade_in_your_water oh for sure, but you trade that for less damage in punish scenarios on average as well as having less pokes. there's a trade-off and modern controls clearly aren't a direct upgrade, otherwise all the top players would be using it
All these new fighting games are being dumbed down and have these easy mode systems, yet a great portion of the FGC seem to dislike Arena Fighters. There really isn't too much of a difference between the sub genres anymore. I find myself wanting to play Arena Fighters for fun rather than these new fighting games.
fighting games and arena fighters are still wildly different, so much so that they still are not comparable. having autocombos in your game doesn't make you an arena fighter lol
@@astray683 To claim Arena and traditional fighters are wildly different is being disingenuous. At least state some of the wild differences in both sub genres as you're claiming. Both are fighting games in a technical sense. Deplete the others life resource before yours is. It's just that the term Fighting games is used similarly to how people to use the term "real men." The difference is between the sub genres are supposed to be aspects such as difficulty as a whole, character nuance and variety, and execution. When you take most of that away, the differences between Arena and traditional fighters become less noticeable. There is the case of aspects like balancing, but even Arena Fighters are balancing their games. The Arcade scene was also a big defining point, but you probably know how that ended. Then you have community, which I'm just going to say both are and have become soft and corny. All to say, traditional fighting games have heavily strayed from what made them appealing to me personally. Though I'm sure many others share the same sentiment. I'd rather play a non serious arena fighter than these new sorry excuse of traditional fighter. If these new fighting games games came out in there current state back then, they would've gotten flamed and exiled the same way as smash.
@@SeveredEverlastingWorldLore none of these things are what make a fighting game different from an arena fighter. dragon ball fighterz has autocombos, a tracking dash, and only quarter circle motions and is still clearly a 2d fighter, not an arena fighter. 2xko isn't going to have motion inputs at all and is still clearly a 2d fighter and not an arena fighter. motion inputs or high execution is not what makes a 2d fighter. the two genres are very different fundamentally and no amount of "skill erasure" would suddenly turn a 2d fighter into an arena fighter. it's a conscious decision in game design, not a spectrum
@@astray683 I never said anything about 2d fighters, or traditional fighters becoming Arena fighters. The point is that what separates the two on a serious level has diminished drastically with these new games. Yet, people in the FGC still talks trash about Smash and Arena Fighters even when the same implementations are found in these new Fighting Games. You seem to be rather new to the scene, and aren't familiar with how the community and older games used to be.
We do not approve of this Elena slander! Yun Decapre and Akuma are far more toxic than Elena. But given that you seem to like SFV I Can see how you made that mistake. You even used the wrong theme for Ed lmao
If you want to make a video about the history of modern control, that’s great. However, if your intention is to belittle people who choose that system, then you should take that to Twitter or another platform. The jokes you’re trying to make, or the redundant comments you liked are just insulting and make your video irrelevant. I didn’t even want to finish it. As soon as you made your first joke, I paused the video, disliked it, and reported it. It’s been a year now, and people are tired of these condescending comments about modern control. Grow up!!!
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I love that this calm, well-reasoned video essay briefly turns into an angry rant when it is forced to interact with Street Fighter 1's controls.
Street Fighter 1 being so ass that even when simplified it doesn't work properly is not only fitting but fuckin' hilarious
Also, one thing you missed with SF4 3D is that the touch screen isn't the only way to map specials to one button. You can literally map any button to any action, the A button can be an auto-flash-kick for example, and its just as busted as you'd think
Button mashers rejoice.
SF4 Mobile, which is somewhat of a Mobile port of the 3DS game? has controls that resemble SF6's modern control, especially for charge characters
instead of an instant special move, you still need to charge down or back, you just don't need to press up or forward, and simply just do the attack buttons after the charge
Capcom back in '87 was thinking more towards mashing. Funnily enough, there was someone who actually calculated the frame data for it and why it felt so ass. Basically, instead of the movement reliance we're use to, it relies on the button, which is backwards nowdays.
Btw in some 3ds emulators you can set a macro to press on the touch screen in certain spots, meaning you can assign the 3ds one button specials to an actual button.
Not just the SF4 port, huh?
XD
As a very casual fighter guy: easy modes are great. Not always the best for competition play, but definitely a good option. Idol Showdown shout-out was fun to see.
Was hoping to hear you talk about the tomfoolery of CvS2 on Xbox and GameCube. Face buttons for system mechanics, triggers for normals and the right stick for specials AND supers. Maybe the most insane control scheme for a 2d fighter that was trying to be "easy operation"
That needs to come back
#FreeCvS2
Surprised more games haven't tried using the right analog stick for attacks. Smash bros and slap city did it but I don't know if anything else did.
SUPER MOVE MACRO
Modern controls more like uhh mrmixtape controls
You...
I want you...
what the FUCK
@@henrymerkel2656 You...
@@deathcatthor I want you...
I've only ever played 3-4 button fighters, so my hands only really acclimate well to pressing 4 buttons beside eachother instead of reaching up or down, so modern controls lets me play SF6 like I would UNI or Guilty Gear while also still letting me perform motion inputs, I've greatly appreciated it's inclusion and it's helped me get into Street Fighter as a series.
But Guilty Gear uses 5 buttons? Arguably 6 if you include the Dash button in GGST, which is effectively required to play the game once you reach a certain level.
@@xetsumathe only thing you won’t be able to use is Dust, which, depending on the character, isn’t that big of a hindrance. (Edit: this part’s wrong. I’m stupid. Forgot about Burst. Even then, you can still put it on macro)
At least it’s not anywhere near as important as your main 4 buttons. Everything else is just a macro. You can still input that stuff using the face buttons.
Street Fighter, by default, has 6 main buttons. That’s where the problem lies for them. They probably have troubles getting accustomed to the triggers and bumpers. And when they HAVE to use them to access some of the most important tools in their arsenal, that‘s where things are gonna become difficult
@@KeDe1606One character in one game which isn't even right... in strive it is used for grabs, burst, and wild assault, which the latter 2 are still used.
This isn't even mentioning Accent core and XRD the other 2 popular GG games.
@@muckdriver I didn’t say that you never have to use it. Where did you get that idea from? Just that you use it way less regularly than any one of your face buttons. Tell me, in your average game of Guilty Gear, doesn’t matter which one, which move do you use more: stand Slash, or Burst? Not even any other move that you initiate with the slash button, just 5S.
Edit: also, about that first sentence, would it have been that difficult to actually explain why I’m wrong? At that point, you may as well have just said pickle
its literally just 2 button more u crybaby
Was it SF2 that had the "magic hadoken" thing where hitting punch had a 1/256 chance to throw a fireball, presumably to teach people that there were those cool-ass special moves you could do?
It was! and in an Arcade environment, that made a lot of sense to include.
The short lived IOS port of MVC2 has a simple input style not all that different from sf6's modern inputs surprisingly.
One reason I really appreciate the choice of "easy" controls (particularly SF6 modern variant) isn't just casual or a possible comp advantage, but because it makes the game more access to those with certain muscle conditions in their hands.
There's a whole video on why motion inputs are interesting but debatably not the best, and that (individuals with conditions that make it hard, painful or impossible to utilize motion inputs) is inarguably the strongest point against them.
It's really not. The vast majority of people don't have those conditions, and the ones that care enough will find a way to play through their disability (BrolyLegs). Not saying there shouldn't be easier controls for accessibility reasons, especially if there's going to be a single player mode like World Tour, but those easier controls should NEVER upset mechanical designs or make characters better by using them. See SF4 3DS Guile. Or Modern Gief, and the 2% of handicapped players aren't an excuse for bad simplification.
wahh wahh i cant do motion input wahh
@@TOS4KA Bro, what are you even doing on a video for genuine discussion of the subject if you're gonna be a stubborn purist?
@@espurrseyes42 Did I say anything about bad simplification? Like really, you're take from this was "every game should have some form of simplified controls, even if they're bad" rather than "I think having the option is good for expanding the FGC in an inclusive manner, allowing more to play. Though this should be balanced properly."
given I specifically highlighted SF6 which has the system balanced out in multiple ways and is arguably the best iteration of modern inputs in any fighting game TO DATE, I have no clue how you misconstrued this that badly.
@@joghnythegurue2710
My take is "easier controls should NEVER upset mechanical designs or make characters better by using them.". It was right there in front of you, yet you missed it somehow.
I understand the need to bring new players fo fighting games, but I was practicing hours a day to make pretzel motions inthe Fatal Fury and KOF series, so... I get a bit salty.
But hey, listen: the *feeling* when you learn and pull off super moves and nasty specials by putting some hard work is amazing and I wouldn't trade it for anything.
Just recently I got SF 6 (to play as Terry Bogard soon!), and am having fun playing Manon (I know she's bottom tier) in classic mode.
I feel the same as well. I get that new players wouldn't really have fun if Modern controls doesn't exist, but when you want to play a fighting game you are DEFINTELY gonna put time into command moves and combos for HOURS. I am sure that the modern controls is great and all but it really takes away the satisfaction of finally pulling off a combo that you struggle with the most.
And I am so glad that I am not the only one who got the game just because of Terry Bogard lmfao, I have played most SF and KOF games but I liked KOF more. Although I was a bit tempted seeing Akuma for DLC.
A lot of people would trade that in to do easy controls for their characters to do cool shit.
@@YasakaAlvavus0727 Ah, a fellow SNK fan! I too have been in team SNK since the early 90ies because of their focus on the story of the game and of the characters.
But then Verse happened and suddenly... "Somehow Palpatine has returned".
I'm still on KOF XV daily, though. Hope to see you there someday!
@@lampad4549 Yeah... I feel salty because the fighting game community was a kind of secret cabal of players who studied frames, hibtoxes and praticed for hours to pull cool stuff off.
But games need new players, or else they just wither away.
@@Fenrisson heck yeah!
I think the closest to Modern Control SF6 would be the control scheme in the mobile phone port of SF4: just overall less attacks at the cost of instant specials and supers, though charge attacks do require charge.
There's a certain revelatory irony in the fact that in order to "dumb down" a game the Developers need to put a lot of time, thought, and effort into how they are going to expand accessibility.
Good for them. Smart accessibility options will always improve a game.
“Less is more” I guess.
@@pian-0g445 Or, more often, you have to do more to do get to "less".
Was hoping you’d talk about the iOS version of SF4, which has a punch, kick, focus, and special! It’s really interesting cause to do EX moves you still have to do the input, but then use the special move button. In addition, you just touch the HUD on either super or ultra to do that move, though I think charge character still have to charge to do them. It’s a really fun and unique port, with its own trials as well!
I know it's not directly related to the main topic but that point on Ed being so open ended in 6 is something I felt IMMEDIATELY online because it felt like every Ed had a different gameplan when fighting them which just makes for a fun matchup mentally. It's probably the most I've really felt an opponent's character expression online.
I remember playing SF43D with some other kids at school and watching as the matches turned into RPS with specials.
I remember when I was younger and not super into fighting games playing the crap out of mobile street fighter 4 and spamming the special move button because I was too dumb to memorize inputs. Good times.
Good video, but just a heads up for SF2T Revial, if I remember correctly there were remapping options for the buttons that would either do hold buttons for heavy or set two buttons to heavy.
Granblue has the option for regular and easy specials at the same time, though you can completely turn off the ability to do them manually, but not turn off easy. In the vanilla version, you had longer cooldowns as a punishment for using the easy input, but they changed that in Rising so there's no downside, and you get a damage boost if you do the manual motions outside of a cancel from a normal (so raw and in juggles). And yeah, no charge required for charge characters. It was a pure buff for characters like Charlotta in Rising. I don't like having to hit two buttons and a direction for a different strength of the move when the motion and one button is actually easier, especially on pad.
Blade Arcus had an item you could equip in the second version that also activated easy inputs, and that would become the standard in Blade Strangers, where you still need to hit several buttons for different strength moves. They also had Rick in Blade Arcus as a character that only used easy inputs, which then meant he could have easy input mode activated on him in the updated version. Both games predate SF6 and Granblue.
There was also Blazblue with the Stylish mode that gave you auto combos and a special move button, and Mai being an easy input only character. Again, predating SF6.
I feel like Xrd might be an interesting game to look at regarding this topic. Of course there's Jack-O, who just... has 1-button specials (that eat up meter), which is just one of many unorthodox facets to her kit, but also the Stylish Mode which in my opinion is... quite weird.
Autocombos, semi-automatic blocking (except it doesn't block lows so....) a special button and a whopping *_20%_* penalty to damage taken, something that feels oddly punishing for a supposedly beginner-friendly mode.
xrd stylish is literally just training wheels, it's there to help complete beginners familiarize themselves with the game feel & controls and to give people unfamiliar with the character roster a simple way to just pick up any (well, most, but that's another can of worms entirely) character and do reasonably okay with them
you're not meant to actually continue playing with stylish on after the first hundred hours and i think it does a reasonable enough job at simultaneously easing new players in and discouraging its overuse or relying too much on it
@@richardvlasek2445 I personally think it actually does the opposite. I have witnessed multiple people be completely turned off from trying to learn Technical because of how incredibly jarring the switch from Stylish is.
It messes with multiple fundamental skills. Blocking works differently, and you aren't taught how to confirm off of your hits at all, same applies to some system mechanics. Stylish doesn't encourage offensive use of RCs, throws or learning the Gatling system, which is a huge problem in my opinion. It feels like Stylish has the same issues as DBFZ autocombos except turned up to eleven.
i like how ed is sf6 actually looks and moves like he learned from balrog instead of "funny purple go brrrr"
I prefer how guilty gear strive teaches you how to do specials. Instead of the clutter it's much more simplified. It doesn't have a tone arrows for directions. It's sleek and easy to look at and see how to do them.
I know it's not Just Street Fighter but CvS2 EO also had a mode for simpler inputs iirc
was hoping you mentioned the godawful input shortcut system from the vita port of street fighter x tekken where you only ever activate it accidentally because you do them by touching the back of the vita, which is where your fingers are gripping it
Imo easy input modes are great but it’s also important to make sure there’s a tradeoff that limits how much you can get out of 1-button antiairs. I’m personally making a 6-button game and my current plan is to tie some advanced system mechanics to HP+HK that lower level players won’t immediately see a use for, then adding a control mode that lets you instead set HP+HK to perform specials. I’m not sure how it’ll go in practice but the idea is “newer players don’t have to worry about motion inputs OR get overwhelmed by having to manage their resources, but as they get better, the game starts heavily encouraging them to switch over to motions right around the point when they feel ready to learn them”
I love Ed since the beginning pfft. Such a good character.
At any level, except novice, you really should be able to hit motion inputs at a pretty high rate. It's just not really the execution hurdle it's sometimes made out to be. Also it's not the game, sure sometimes there's a play where someone gets a motion super out on reaction and it's nuts, but for the most part, fighting games aren't about getting that dp motion more than your opponent.
Charge is different, having to manage a charge adds additional things to deal with in a game. Like hiding a charge or planning for the charge move.
Same with negative edge moves, not that they really exist in sf
Modern characters in SF6 don’t really change too much from their Classic control counterparts. Like my main Modern M. Bison only loses 5 normals and his Hover Kick. As someone who plays GBVS Rising, modern controls are something I adore having in SF6.
You should check out the EO version of Capcom vs SNK 2 where you use the right analog to do specials
Capcom vs SNK on the GC/PS2 also has something like this where it's like SF4 on the 3DS...except it's even more busted. You only have 2 heavy buttons being your heavy punch and heavy kick but that's NOT a fair trade off when you can just throw out Sonic Boom's, Flash kick's, and do frame one supers all with just your right stick.
Absolutely hate playing against modern controls 😎😎
Honestly my opinion of easy inputs is that theyre great as a tool to get someone past a certain point, but if theyre not severely nerfed out of competitive play they become the standard.
Risings simple inputs are a perfect example of this. There used to be a way longer cooldown on simple inputs in base game, but Rising removed it in favor of doing marginally less damage. This means that now special inputs are the preferred input mode for reactions in nearly every single situation.
I dont particularly love it for this reason, because it feels like at this point they want Rising to not have motion inputs and they just give you a small reward for using them just to keep people who are used to them playing. It feels like theyre trying to have their cake and eat it too.
But honestly, simple inputs not being balanced properly are the last of my worries when it comes down to modern fighting games. Id argue SF6 is the best designed game out of the bunch, except for its explosiveness, the Drive system is well thought out and feels like the game was designed with it in mind. Cant say the same for Risings System mechanics and for Strives Wild Assault system. Before devs start working on balancing simple inputs out, Id rather them make sure the game theyre making is fun to play and doesnt feel like anyone can win no matter what.
In super street fighter 4 3d, charge characters aren’t HOLDING BACK.
I'm surprised you didn't mention Power Rangers BftG. All the specials are "single direction + special button" and the ultras are single button as well. And that game is hype
Ed functioning like everyone else in SF6 is a bit sad imo, cause I think his SF5 control scheme is a fair bit cleaner and more elegant than how SF6 modern works. Also I think that if you wanted to have non-motion and motion controls in the same game on the equal level, having the controls be specific to the character is the way to go imo. If you have both for all characters, one is usually going to end up being the "real one", like while modern has been used in competition it's quite niche and for very specific use case and you don't even play without motions in modern usually because you can't control special move versions without motions.
I’m cool with modern inputs because while I hate to admit it, a lot of the design behind motion inputs is kind of antiquated. But I really don’t like it being bolstered as an accessibility option. We had players like BrolyLegs (R.I.P.) competing in big tournaments and Dogs doing Hadoukens. They’re not that hard (except for full circles and pretzels ig lol).
I think Modern controls are a cool option that’s implemented, but I also think that at their core they reinforce instant gratification a bit too much and the idea that fighting games are about winning rather than improving, which just doesn’t fit for such arcadey games. They already made up for the inherent arcadey-ness with the loads of single player content.
Like Street Fighter is incredibly simple, it’s 2 characters fighting on a straight line. The reason Smash gets away with not using inputs is because there’s a lot to it. Motion inputs and tricky combos are practically the only things keeping these games from being boring.
I don’t know, maybe I’m wrong, but as well as Capcom implemented them in SF6 there’s still inherent design flaws. I want to be proven I’m wrong lol
What about motion inputs is antiquated?
@@toyinbode4368 They were basically no more than cheat codes in the original game and they were used as a way to keep people in arcades from SF2 onwards by an adding another layer of complexity.
@@Change51 Doesn't sound like a good reason to call it antiquated. "They were used as a way to keep players in arcades" - good gameplay does that, too.
@@toyinbode4368 I meant that they give the games substance in a way only they can. SF2 came out when people were starting to get tired of arcades because console games had more to offer, so it was designed in a way that even with its simple match based arcade gameplay, players would spend a lot of time trying to perfect their execution, and get as much time out of it as a console game. Of course, now, this doesn’t really matter because all fighting games launch on consoles now with loads of content and modes to choose from.
Looking back at these just proved how well designed and thought out modern controls are, I'm happy to see Capcom having the balls to put a system that always failed into one of their biggest series
Uzuki acknowledged.
dokkan ost surprised me ngl
Modern controls on low-mid level is actually busted. Being able to do large damage combos into super by holding a button and mashing another with no chance of dropping is not fun to fight against. At all. This could’ve been fixed by allowing the player to filter out modern or filter out classic whenever you go online.
Get better at the game or use the modern controls, is there actual evidence to prove that players that use classic loose a lot more likely to modern controls? If all it takes to determine whether you loose a match or not depends on being able to pull off moves it might just be a skill issue at that point
Hahaha modern controls auto combos suck! Look if u don’t want to use M controls and stick to classic, just sit down and learn the basic bnb combos, it’ll do more damage than any auto combo.
Its not about "gittin' gud". Modern controls provide an absolutely unmitigated advantage versus normal controls. Assuming both players have equal skill levels, the modern controls don't require multiple directional inputs to do a special, and allow access to a one button auto-combo, obviously incentivizing button mashing; this means the modern player's attack will always come out faster than a player performing a comparable move with classic controls & they'll have access to essentially undroppable auto-combos because zero execution skill is required (and that's not to mention how combo structuring/routing in street fighter IS SHIT TO BEGIN WITH). The modern player doesn't care about a few negligible omissions from their moveset because their character's best tools are still present & only one button away, and the moves that aren't can still be performed by doing the classic input (what!?!). Add in SF6's laughably bad input buffer, and the classic control player is fighting a two-front war against his human opponent AND the game's mechanics. I know all the Maximillians and other FGC-adjacent influencers will tell you that there is no modern control advantage, but even the slightest bit of critical thinking should debunk their position.
Since capcom isn't going to address (or even acknowledge) any of the game's mechanical shortcomings, the least they could do is give us a fucking modern control filter during matchmaking. Until then we really shouldn't consider sf6 to be anything more than a party game.
@@sofachrome I don’t think modern controls have a large advantage in high level play, because they can already do all the combos and inputs with little to no chance of dropping. It’s just the lower mid level which modern provides a large advantage. However I do think SF6 is a fantastic fighting game, calling it a party game is in my opinion insane
2:12 my ears always perk up when I hear this... someone knows how to postulate the possibilities
You forgot SF4: Champion Edition for IOS and Android.
15:20 Huh? is that Undertale... POWER OF NEO?!
Very fitting
19:33 - Ed was raised an trained by Balrog/Boxer, right? He's not exactly famous for fighting fair, you know.
Capcom vs SNK 2: Easy Operation
Cool video.
7:51
At least they (managed?) to put a background!
XD
16:14 you get to be sf2 cpu guile 🔥🔥🔥
thing is.. Capcom had a Better Simple Imputs System in the Past in CvS2EO and also.. Alpha3 on the GBA had easy imputs that were better than SF6s
A good SF6 Ed Lvl2 juggle combo is a thing of beauty
Why are u not included sf4 mobile version, It's basically sf6 modern input in sf4
i played sf4 3D!
Modern controls is for people that poor the milk first, then the cereal.
??? What does this mean?
@PikaPenny17 Nothing really
@@PikaPenny17 its from a vidoe by Mighty Keef about modern controls. lol
You should watch it
babe wake up mr mixtape dropped
6:16 Even back then, THEY KNEW
The problem with modern controls, and really simplifications in general, is that they can't actually work unless the game is designed with them in mind from the ground up. On paper I don't mind the idea making games more accessible. But in practice there's always some sort of compromise. It's the inevitable concessions that rub me the wrong way.
Command grabs are probably the most obvious example. Sure the SPD input was difficult, but these moves were generally the fastest in the game. They weren't just balanced, they had utility. They could reliably be used defensively to interrupt gaps or punish poorly spaced moves. In a way they where even better than dps since you had to commit to an option to avoid them. But now that they're balanced around simplified controls they're much slower and much less useful to compensate. At this point command grabs are just high risk mixup tools, and Grapplers are just awkard rushdown characters with high health and damage in lieu of a unique gameplan. Sure on paper this is still balanced, but in practice Grapplers are almost always strictly worse, rather than offering one among many valid playstyles.
In a way, the complainers were absolutely right, Modern controls fundamentally changed the game. Choosing Classic controls doesn't change the fact that I can't choose a character with a 2 frame SPD. Now you could argue that the trade-off was worth it, but I'm sick of getting gaslit that modern design is an unmitigated good.
SFV didn't have 2-frame SPDs either (there was nothing faster than 5!), they were already moving away from that, it's not the fault of modern at all
@@Putnam3145 I was speaking about simplifications generally, hence why I didn't mention Street Fighter or Zangief specifically. Though looking back the last paragraph pretty much is singling out SF6's Modern controls. While SFV didn't have Modern controls, it still deliberately streamlined and simplified parts of the gameplay. And there are other games that treat grapplers similarly, Strive Pot is a great example.
I still think the overall point stands, even if I didn't do the best job of conveying it. Modern games aren't the same thing but simpler, they're fundamentally different. Whether you like them or not you can't argue that they're the same as they've always been and the complainers are just looking at the past with rose tinted glasses.
@@hijster479 Yeah, that much can be agreed on; like, earlier games are still played at EVO, all the evidence you need
I feel like the issue with modern controls could be mostly fixed by Capcom adding the ability to filter out anyone using a different control scheme.
I'd argue DP is a better example for how simple commands can mess with a game's balance. There's a whole video talking about One Button DPs and how they forced P4A players to play in awkward ways out of fear of getting Instant Reversal'd. And even ignoring that, there's 3D Guile, spamming Booms at an abnormal rate, then easily Flash Kicking you when you try to jump over them.
What about the SFIV Champion Edition? (the mobile ver.)
12:34 and here
We
GO...
easy execution modes are really cool is not just an accessibility thing skill wise but also for people who may want to get into fighting games but have things like carpel tunnel that makes the motions most fighting games require painful
dokkan ost spotted
Dude, I didn’t know you were a Dokkan fan! 😮
Modern feels like the defensive scheme of the game
"Mostly Darkstalkers " you say that like it's a bad thing
*Nice video. Inspirational.*
No Alpha 3 Max or GBA Upper 😔
Great vid, whats the music used for the outro?
Sunset Bridge from Persona 5
I understand that lowering the barrier to people having fun is a great thing, but it feels bad seeing legacy skills potentially become irrelevant, because fighting gamea are so hecking *fun,* but now its changing a core component of them
this is demonstrably not the case, very few players are competing at a high level with modern controls. legacy skills also run deeper than just being able to dp on command
@@astray683 oh I know that for sure, hell, I play in tournies myself. I'm not making the claim that they are currently irrelevant, but that as games may continue further in that direction, the skill matters less and in some games, modern-esque controls are the only option. Which is great, be what you wanna be! But ... yeah
@@itloaf some games may choose to implement easy controls or no motions at all (2xko) but motions aren't going anywhere in sf (the biggest fighting game by far). plus these other games are designed specifically around lack of motion inputs. the technical requirements are lowered but those games aren't inherently "less skillful" they just emphasize other skills
@@astray683 for sure! I never claimed that motion inputs were "more or less skillful," I just personally like motion inputs and the the things that go with them. They're not going anywhere for now, but who knows what the future may hold. There are many franchises and genres of games that I once enjoyed that (rightfully) changed because they found something new and popular to do that made me fall out of love with them. I just don't want that to happen for fighting games in the future, too
if stylish weren't in xrd, my boyfriend would've never gotten into guilty gear so i have nothing but praise for simple input modes in fighters
14:30 YOU ARE GRAVELY MISTAKEN. SF4 3D was BUSTED. Imagine Fighting Guile with no charge and Blanka with no odd motions. It was hell. I still had fun and only played Ibuki, Makoto and Juri because I will never play high tiers if I don't resonate with them, it's unfun. Having a fighting game that had online in your pocket was cool though.
Nevermind, got to the rest of the video.
Dokkan music heard 🗣️
Sf6 trying to be Kyanta 2 frfr😔
16:13
Why do people hate sf6?
Elitists hating on how the game gets easier with no drawbacks
Always thought arbitrary execution barriers were dumb. Imagine an FPS where you have to input the konami code to reload. Sure its something you can practice. And tournament ppl will get their reload down to 15 frames. But it adds no strategic depth.
It's literally not arbitrary though, and motion inputs have been easy since SF2. Special moves are designed around their inputs to define when and how you can use them. FPS games have execution barriers anyway for things like aiming at fast moving targets or quick movement. There is nothing wrong with a game genre asking you to have higher execution than your average Sony first party movie game. Imagine if I asked a musical instrument to make itself "more accessible" and to remove its "arbitrary execution requirements". That would be a stupid and laughable thing to ask, and would also remove a lot of the satisfaction that comes from practicing and getting better at playing it. If you don't want to hone your executional skill and you'd rather have results instantly granted to you, fighting games simply are not for you. There's a million other games that will give you the instant gratification you're looking for instead.
@@mallow2902 you missed my point. Execution barriers are great. Execution barriers that don't add any strategic depth are not. Monkey Ball is the best example the controls couldn't be simpler but probably 90% of its playerbase never saw the endgame content.
Clicking heads requires knowing where the opponent is likely to be, which is a strategic skill.
@@letsmakeit110 You're still wrong though because you assume that the execution barriers in fighting games are arbitrary, which they aren't.
@@mallow2902 are you planning to provide an example at any point? That's normally how discussions work you support your arguments with examples.
@@letsmakeit110 in no particular order:
-You can't fire a Sonic Boom while walking forward because of its motion, so to compensate, it recovers faster than an average projectile. The motion input puts the move's strong properties in check.
-DPs have the motions they do to prevent you from doing them while blocking, but most characters have a less risky but also less rewarding normal that they can do while blocking in order to anti-air, so you can make a decision on which to go for based on a risk/reward analysis depending on your level of executional skill.
-Harder combos often reward you with higher damage, but are obviously easier to drop in high pressure situations. However, most characters have easier combos that are more consistent but give less reward. Thus, you can make a decision on which combos to go for in high pressure situations depending on your level of confidence to nail the harder combo. Remove the executional barrier and you just always do the max damage combo with no risk or effort.
-The same goes for offense outside of combos. Urien in Third Strike for example gets unblockables after a knockdown with Aegis Reflector, but the setup to get a guaranteed combo after the knockdown with that unblockable is extremely difficult. Instead, a Urien player may choose to go for a mixup that isn't guaranteed, but is much easier to perform. There's pros and cons to each decision.
-Supers have more complex inputs to reduce the likelihood of you doing them accidentally and wasting meter when you don't want to. It's also a similar case to DPs as mentioned above: their inputs determine when and how they can be used.
-All special moves and supers have their frame data tailored around how long it takes to input the command for the move. The reason one-button reversals are so hated is because not only is it easier to react with them, but they come out faster than with a motion input, and in a game like Street Fighter 6 where the move itself is the same between classic and modern, it means that modern controls literally just have objectively better reversals than classic. Although admittedly modern isn't making classic obsolete for other reasons, but I use this example to point out how this can be an issue.
-An example an actually truly arbitrary execution barrier is L-cancels in Super Smash Bros. It's arbitrary because there's literally no reason not to L-cancel the landing recovery of your aerials. To not do so simply gets you punished. Removing it from the game actually changes nothing about how the game flows, and nothing needs to be balanced around it.
I don't expect any of this to change your mind, people don't generally change their minds when arguing on the internet.
modern controls are fine, they simply deserve their own ranked mode. idk wtf capcom was thinking in making
- auto-hit confirm
- auto-combo
- instant special
- instant super
- vicariously making 5MK and 5HK nearly useless unless within *perfect* range (no special cancel on those buttons for most characters, so if they DI youre screwed. this is easily fixed by making DI *always* able to be used as a counter attack to another DI, but here we are).
- the decision to make sure this can not happen is so modern players have an easier time not getting fucked, cause their buttons auto throw out good buttons.
garbage.
modern controls is still the worse control scheme despite all these things lmao, very few top players use the control scheme and if you can't beat modern players at your own rank it's just a skill issue.
you have to engage with modern characters slightly differently, similar to how you would treat Ryu and Zangief differently
I feel a lot of the problems that occur due to modern controls can be averted by allowing players to choose to fight again their own control scheme only
@@Wade_in_your_water there aren't any problems that occur due to fighting modern controls. you just need to treat modern characters as different characters entirely and play accordingly. if you can't beat a modern player, that's a skill issue.
@@Wade_in_your_water official tournaments don't separate modern and classic users and have no issues, and there are only a few notable modern players at the top level at all. if modern was truly so good, then more pros would use it, simple as
STREET FIGHTER 1 ATARI DELUXE PNEUMATIC PRESSURE SENSITIVE PAD CABINET
3DS!!!
As a bottom level player: Modern controls are cheating. Doing a full confirm into level 3 by just mashing buttons just feels unfair. But apart from the auto combos its fun
all these easy control methods do is ease the amount of practice people need to get into the "real game". the real game isn't knowing how to do combos more than your opponent, it's winning neutral, pressing offense, responding to your opponent, etc. literally everything except combos
@@astray683it helps there too, special moves are apart of neutral and offense and not having the risk to mess up those inputs takes away stress and just is better. Same with using supers to escape pressure, pressing two buttons is easier that two quarter circles.
@@Wade_in_your_water oh for sure, but you trade that for less damage in punish scenarios on average as well as having less pokes. there's a trade-off and modern controls clearly aren't a direct upgrade, otherwise all the top players would be using it
@@astray683 of course, i should have mentioned I’m speaking from a low-mid level perspective (Iron) where modern is just better there
@@Wade_in_your_water hop on modern controls broski 🫡 no shame in it
All these new fighting games are being dumbed down and have these easy mode systems, yet a great portion of the FGC seem to dislike Arena Fighters. There really isn't too much of a difference between the sub genres anymore. I find myself wanting to play Arena Fighters for fun rather than these new fighting games.
fighting games and arena fighters are still wildly different, so much so that they still are not comparable. having autocombos in your game doesn't make you an arena fighter lol
This is so wrong on so many levels, it's so funny
@@astray683 To claim Arena and traditional fighters are wildly different is being disingenuous. At least state some of the wild differences in both sub genres as you're claiming. Both are fighting games in a technical sense. Deplete the others life resource before yours is. It's just that the term Fighting games is used similarly to how people to use the term "real men." The difference is between the sub genres are supposed to be aspects such as difficulty as a whole, character nuance and variety, and execution. When you take most of that away, the differences between Arena and traditional fighters become less noticeable. There is the case of aspects like balancing, but even Arena Fighters are balancing their games. The Arcade scene was also a big defining point, but you probably know how that ended. Then you have community, which I'm just going to say both are and have become soft and corny. All to say, traditional fighting games have heavily strayed from what made them appealing to me personally. Though I'm sure many others share the same sentiment. I'd rather play a non serious arena fighter than these new sorry excuse of traditional fighter. If these new fighting games games came out in there current state back then, they would've gotten flamed and exiled the same way as smash.
@@SeveredEverlastingWorldLore none of these things are what make a fighting game different from an arena fighter. dragon ball fighterz has autocombos, a tracking dash, and only quarter circle motions and is still clearly a 2d fighter, not an arena fighter. 2xko isn't going to have motion inputs at all and is still clearly a 2d fighter and not an arena fighter. motion inputs or high execution is not what makes a 2d fighter. the two genres are very different fundamentally and no amount of "skill erasure" would suddenly turn a 2d fighter into an arena fighter. it's a conscious decision in game design, not a spectrum
@@astray683 I never said anything about 2d fighters, or traditional fighters becoming Arena fighters. The point is that what separates the two on a serious level has diminished drastically with these new games. Yet, people in the FGC still talks trash about Smash and Arena Fighters even when the same implementations are found in these new Fighting Games. You seem to be rather new to the scene, and aren't familiar with how the community and older games used to be.
Easy input is for the lazy. You want to get good at something practice it.
Imagine demanding musical instruments give you an easy inputs mode.
People prefer Ed wearing a plain hoodie and jeans? He looks like one of the more boring characters from Tekken
Least he doesn't look stupid like he does with that "I worked for the evil mustache man from WW2" looking ass fit.
We do not approve of this Elena slander! Yun Decapre and Akuma are far more toxic than Elena. But given that you seem to like SFV I Can see how you made that mistake. You even used the wrong theme for Ed lmao
If you want to make a video about the history of modern control, that’s great. However, if your intention is to belittle people who choose that system, then you should take that to Twitter or another platform. The jokes you’re trying to make, or the redundant comments you liked are just insulting and make your video irrelevant. I didn’t even want to finish it. As soon as you made your first joke, I paused the video, disliked it, and reported it. It’s been a year now, and people are tired of these condescending comments about modern control. Grow up!!!
what are you talking about