Whether the term is ‘redux’ or ‘reprise’ or ‘tribute’ or ‘clone’ or ‘replica’ or ‘homage’ or ‘iteration’ etc, doesn’t really seem to matter in my mind. As an independent cymbalsmith, a part of what we do is satisfying a clients desire to approximate a sound. And often a specific sound generated by a specific drummer, recording, cymbal etc. I’m not sure of the harm this causes? I’m often asked to give a Jack DeJohnette, or Elvin or Bill Stewart or Tony etc vibe to a piece I’m playing. It’s about trying to find a way to describe something as indescribable as a sound. It’s an approximation of a direction that is otherwise pretty tough to articulate. The exact nature of a smiths intention isn’t for me to judge. I’m not really invested one way or the other, but as I age I really like living more in grey areas. There are more shades to work with. I also haven’t seen any independent get rich off of offering a cymbal that uses some of the terms we're discussing here .... I could be wrong? Anyway, I love the discussion though and I love the work you’re doing. That’s a lovely cymbal you’ve made. Cheers, Craig.
This is absolutely the best counterpoint, in my mind. There's definitely a follow-up discussion that needs to be had in the realm of how we market our cymbals and describe sounds that no one can seem to agree upon. That, and how do we deal with the blurry lines of what inspires our cymbals, without using that as an expedient way to sell our product (via name recognition)? I do think intent matters but, you're right, how do you judge that? As the industry grows, inevitably bad actors will jump in and capitalize on the subjective nature of "high quality cymbals". They can use fancy marketing terms, edited audio, and well known drummer's names to push a product that may have very little to do with the actual sounds/drummers they are referencing. I do think those actors can muddy people's perception of the indie makers as a whole, and make us all seem less serious. I might be totally off the mark, though, and in the end it really might not matter as long as I just stick to my own convictions and "do my thing". You're a bad dude, Mr. Lauritsen. One of the greatest to ever swing a hammer. Still love that 22" that I picked up. It was perfect on my gig last week!
@@Reverie_Cymbals_Drums I agree that intent matters and you're right in saying that if there's a purposeful intent to exploit something that you have no ownership of, that's never a good thing. It's a tough one. I have no doubt about your intent. I love your content here and the cymbals you're making 🙏
Great Cymbal Mr. Roberts, I want one. The Import Brand Epiphone of Gibson Gutars uses the term "inspired by Gibson" for a series replicating the Gibsons that cost a multitude of the imports. I find that term fitting
Brother, all I can say is "The Truth" will set you free; in more ways than one, best wishes on your "Redux" metaphor! I really like your style and what you are doing. Stay true to yourself Timothy! Best wishes for 2025 and beyond.
great video! regarding using drummer name to market cymbals. i had a talk a year ago with one of the drummers whose name is used a lot .. He was not happy about it!
Should all the hints be removed in the naming, or just the names of the drummers? Do you think it's ok to name a line of cymbals after a song or album?
I think realistically, it's mainly about not using someone's name without their or their family's permission. Calling things the "old K" tribute has no legal barriers to my knowledge, but I personally don't like to go that route because most of the time those "tributes" come nowhere close to the actual sound.
Would you have told this to Roberto Spizzichino? For example not to reference Tony when naming a cymbal? Or does this only apply to your contemporaries/competition?
Maybe this is a copout, but Roberto did his thing in a very different time before the internet/social media, so while he maybe didn't get permission to use Tony's name/likeness, he was also somewhat under the radar until people got hip to his work. I also think he developed his own sound and it was clear his intent was to have a unique "voice" as an artist and craftsman. There are plenty of my contemporaries and those that came before me that use these terms, and I personally have no issue with it because I see their body of work and they have an honest, genuine love for the craft. My opinion here is just that we (makers) need to check ourselves and make sure we're keeping the main thing, the main thing (ie. developing our own sound based on our inspirations, rather than capitalizing on the names others have or have developed).
OK, I really never knew or thought about this concept. I heard Mike Johnson's cymbal and had to have one. The crash of his ride is so sweet and skooshi....I feel in love with it. Really never bought a cymbal based on hearing one then buying one from the company. Usually went out to the store and got what I wanted. I figured that it would be the same- I just did. Not an idiot, just thought it would. Boy was I wrong. The cymbal, especially its crash, is nothing like the one I heard. not even in the ball park. Really disappointing realization.
I don't mind "tribute" named cymbals (to either a drummer, or cymbal). Most modern cymbal-smiths are going to be inspired and influenced by drummer's sounds, or classic cymbals of the past (as we all are), so a nod to them is totally understandable. The use of the term "clone" is something else however, as it literally means "genetically identical" or an exact copy, which a handcrafted cymbal never is (and I don't think needs to be). I actually think the term "clone" works against a cymbal-smith because drummers don't just listen to it and appraise it on face value. They'll either judge it (usually with a pretty strong bias or allegiance) to the cymbals from that era they may know, and often to an even higher standard, which is their fantasy or romance of cymbals of that era.
I dig it! I understand that some don't find an issue with "tribute", and your take makes sense. To me, it's mainly about not using someone's name as the name of your product without their or their family's permission. That's pretty black and white in my mind. Now, there are gray areas within that discussion, but I'd say it's fine to reference the inspiration in a description or video somewhere. That doesn't seem to have any legal issues associated with it. My opinion here is just that we (makers) need to check ourselves and make sure we're keeping the main thing, the main thing (ie. developing our own sound based on our inspirations, rather than capitalizing on the names others have or have developed).
@@Reverie_Cymbals_Drums Yeah I get you. I totally understand that point of view regarding copyright of a product or person. That's a valid point. I also just prefer it when cymbal makers just use their own model names as I think it's pretty obvious who is influenced by what when you look and listen to their cymbals. And in the interest of doing your own thing and moving forwards with respect to what's gone before, rather than just copying it. Interestingly as someone who sells cymbals made by smiths or companies who often have a direct link back to some of the vintage cymbals people "tribute" or "clone", I know for a fact that most of them hate it when you ask them to make cymbals like the cymbals either they, their teachers, or their previous company made. They are certainly very proud of the lineage they have back to these products or people, but most of them are far more interested in making their own sounds now.
Mixed feelings. Honestly, I think naming cymbals in honor of artist can only help promote their music. I say this after realizing how many jazz artists and albums I’ve been introduced to and bought because of tribute cymbals whose sound interested me. Lasse’s cymbals recently introduced me to Kenny Washington records, for example. I do applaud you though for being a little more subtle (calling it Landmark ride instead of Brian Blade ride). In any case, I doubt Kenny or Elvin mind from the great beyond 😂
I do think the artists care if their name is being used w/o their permission and w/o financial compensation. It comes down to respect and honor. Also, the artists that have passed have families and estates that are not being consulted or given compensation. It's, strictly speaking, not legal and any of them would be fully within their rights to threaten a lawsuit. You are right that new people are introduced to artists which is technically a benefit, even if I would argue it doesn’t outweigh the drawbacks.
@ Totally see your point. And cymbal nerds are too few to move the needle with record sales. I wonder what Funch thinks, with so many rides named after artists.
Also, to use the word "unique" to describe any cymbal is weak at best. "Distinctive" might be better. Your knowledge about cymbal making is impressive and your cymbals all sound fantastic.
Whether the term is ‘redux’ or ‘reprise’ or ‘tribute’ or ‘clone’ or ‘replica’ or ‘homage’ or ‘iteration’ etc, doesn’t really seem to matter in my mind. As an independent cymbalsmith, a part of what we do is satisfying a clients desire to approximate a sound. And often a specific sound generated by a specific drummer, recording, cymbal etc.
I’m not sure of the harm this causes? I’m often asked to give a Jack DeJohnette, or Elvin or Bill Stewart or Tony etc vibe to a piece I’m playing. It’s about trying to find a way to describe something as indescribable as a sound. It’s an approximation of a direction that is otherwise pretty tough to articulate.
The exact nature of a smiths intention isn’t for me to judge. I’m not really invested one way or the other, but as I age I really like living more in grey areas. There are more shades to work with.
I also haven’t seen any independent get rich off of offering a cymbal that uses some of the terms we're discussing here .... I could be wrong?
Anyway, I love the discussion though and I love the work you’re doing. That’s a lovely cymbal you’ve made. Cheers, Craig.
This is absolutely the best counterpoint, in my mind. There's definitely a follow-up discussion that needs to be had in the realm of how we market our cymbals and describe sounds that no one can seem to agree upon. That, and how do we deal with the blurry lines of what inspires our cymbals, without using that as an expedient way to sell our product (via name recognition)? I do think intent matters but, you're right, how do you judge that? As the industry grows, inevitably bad actors will jump in and capitalize on the subjective nature of "high quality cymbals". They can use fancy marketing terms, edited audio, and well known drummer's names to push a product that may have very little to do with the actual sounds/drummers they are referencing. I do think those actors can muddy people's perception of the indie makers as a whole, and make us all seem less serious. I might be totally off the mark, though, and in the end it really might not matter as long as I just stick to my own convictions and "do my thing".
You're a bad dude, Mr. Lauritsen. One of the greatest to ever swing a hammer. Still love that 22" that I picked up. It was perfect on my gig last week!
@@Reverie_Cymbals_Drums I agree that intent matters and you're right in saying that if there's a purposeful intent to exploit something that you have no ownership of, that's never a good thing. It's a tough one. I have no doubt about your intent. I love your content here and the cymbals you're making 🙏
Thank you, brother. That means a ton coming from you!
@@Reverie_Cymbals_Drums 🙏
I watch last weeks video and went directly to your store and saw the 22" was sold. I will be watching for the redux. You're on the right track!
Great Cymbal Mr. Roberts, I want one.
The Import Brand Epiphone of Gibson Gutars uses the term "inspired by Gibson" for a series replicating the Gibsons that cost a multitude of the imports. I find that term fitting
Yeah I can dig that!
My best wishes for your new year... (That cymbal is simply unique, simply marvelous)
Thanks!
What a beautiful sounding cymbal! It's a sound I dream about. I have some cymbals that come close to it and I love playing them.
Thanks!
I have learned so much from your channel and hope to purchase one of your beautiful instruments soon.
awesome! Thanks for watching.
Awesome Artist Musician
Brother, all I can say is "The Truth" will set you free; in more ways than one, best wishes on your "Redux" metaphor! I really like your style and what you are doing. Stay true to yourself Timothy! Best wishes for 2025 and beyond.
Thank you brother! Good stuff!
great video! regarding using drummer name to market cymbals. i had a talk a year ago with one of the drummers whose name is used a lot .. He was not happy about it!
I'm sure he wasn't!
Should all the hints be removed in the naming, or just the names of the drummers?
Do you think it's ok to name a line of cymbals after a song or album?
I think realistically, it's mainly about not using someone's name without their or their family's permission. Calling things the "old K" tribute has no legal barriers to my knowledge, but I personally don't like to go that route because most of the time those "tributes" come nowhere close to the actual sound.
Would you have told this to Roberto Spizzichino? For example not to reference Tony when naming a cymbal?
Or does this only apply to your contemporaries/competition?
Maybe this is a copout, but Roberto did his thing in a very different time before the internet/social media, so while he maybe didn't get permission to use Tony's name/likeness, he was also somewhat under the radar until people got hip to his work. I also think he developed his own sound and it was clear his intent was to have a unique "voice" as an artist and craftsman. There are plenty of my contemporaries and those that came before me that use these terms, and I personally have no issue with it because I see their body of work and they have an honest, genuine love for the craft.
My opinion here is just that we (makers) need to check ourselves and make sure we're keeping the main thing, the main thing (ie. developing our own sound based on our inspirations, rather than capitalizing on the names others have or have developed).
I SOOOOOOO agree!!! Great video Timothy!
Timothy, what is the source of the blank you are using to make this fantastic cymbal? My favorite of favorites!
This is a Brazilian blank! It's great for this kind of sound!
OK, I really never knew or thought about this concept. I heard Mike Johnson's cymbal and had to have one. The crash of his ride is so sweet and skooshi....I feel in love with it. Really never bought a cymbal based on hearing one then buying one from the company. Usually went out to the store and got what I wanted. I figured that it would be the same- I just did. Not an idiot, just thought it would. Boy was I wrong. The cymbal, especially its crash, is nothing like the one I heard. not even in the ball park. Really disappointing realization.
Yep, it's unfortunate but that's the case with a lot of cymbals from the big manufacturers... No 2 are the same and the artists get the good ones.
I don't mind "tribute" named cymbals (to either a drummer, or cymbal). Most modern cymbal-smiths are going to be inspired and influenced by drummer's sounds, or classic cymbals of the past (as we all are), so a nod to them is totally understandable. The use of the term "clone" is something else however, as it literally means "genetically identical" or an exact copy, which a handcrafted cymbal never is (and I don't think needs to be). I actually think the term "clone" works against a cymbal-smith because drummers don't just listen to it and appraise it on face value. They'll either judge it (usually with a pretty strong bias or allegiance) to the cymbals from that era they may know, and often to an even higher standard, which is their fantasy or romance of cymbals of that era.
I dig it! I understand that some don't find an issue with "tribute", and your take makes sense. To me, it's mainly about not using someone's name as the name of your product without their or their family's permission. That's pretty black and white in my mind.
Now, there are gray areas within that discussion, but I'd say it's fine to reference the inspiration in a description or video somewhere. That doesn't seem to have any legal issues associated with it. My opinion here is just that we (makers) need to check ourselves and make sure we're keeping the main thing, the main thing (ie. developing our own sound based on our inspirations, rather than capitalizing on the names others have or have developed).
@@Reverie_Cymbals_Drums Yeah I get you. I totally understand that point of view regarding copyright of a product or person. That's a valid point. I also just prefer it when cymbal makers just use their own model names as I think it's pretty obvious who is influenced by what when you look and listen to their cymbals. And in the interest of doing your own thing and moving forwards with respect to what's gone before, rather than just copying it. Interestingly as someone who sells cymbals made by smiths or companies who often have a direct link back to some of the vintage cymbals people "tribute" or "clone", I know for a fact that most of them hate it when you ask them to make cymbals like the cymbals either they, their teachers, or their previous company made. They are certainly very proud of the lineage they have back to these products or people, but most of them are far more interested in making their own sounds now.
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly!
Very interesting. Do you ship any of your gold to Europe?
Yeah, I ship to Europe often! Send me an email if you want more info: tim@reveriedrums.com
Mixed feelings. Honestly, I think naming cymbals in honor of artist can only help promote their music. I say this after realizing how many jazz artists and albums I’ve been introduced to and bought because of tribute cymbals whose sound interested me. Lasse’s cymbals recently introduced me to Kenny Washington records, for example. I do applaud you though for being a little more subtle (calling it Landmark ride instead of Brian Blade ride). In any case, I doubt Kenny or Elvin mind from the great beyond 😂
I do think the artists care if their name is being used w/o their permission and w/o financial compensation. It comes down to respect and honor. Also, the artists that have passed have families and estates that are not being consulted or given compensation. It's, strictly speaking, not legal and any of them would be fully within their rights to threaten a lawsuit.
You are right that new people are introduced to artists which is technically a benefit, even if I would argue it doesn’t outweigh the drawbacks.
@ Totally see your point. And cymbal nerds are too few to move the needle with record sales. I wonder what Funch thinks, with so many rides named after artists.
Also, to use the word "unique" to describe any cymbal is weak at best. "Distinctive" might be better. Your knowledge about cymbal making is impressive and your cymbals all sound fantastic.
I dig that!
😅 might as well call it "one-of-a-kind."
to bad he recording was so clipped. the cymbal was distorted.
That must've happened on the upload, because it wasn't distorting during editing. Bummer!
Iterations
Dig it