The Ancient One: I'm sorry, I can't help you, Bruce. If I give up the Time Stone to help your Reality, I'm dooming my own. This is one line is single solid evidence that taking of the stones is not what creates a new timeline. The Ancient One has not parted with her Time Stone at this moment. She plans not to. But she's already talking about her reality vs Bruce's reality. This means the new timeline has already been born before Bruce gets the Time Stone. Why is this timeline (reality) already created? Simple, the time travel to the past created it.
This Is Barry : Yes. Of course. The only way to understand how this film relates multiverse time travel to the Quantum Realm is that you exit the Quantum Realm in a past based on an alternate reality that is *your new future.*
@@abhishekbharadwaj5092 Thanks. So now that its established that Hulk and The Ancient One are in an alternate timeline, here's what the branched reality means. Consider the new timeline created when Clint first goes back in the test run. He ends up taking a glove. That change is rather small. The missing glove is less likely to cause a diverged future. However, coming back tot he 2012 New York timeline, if Hulk takes away the stone and doesn't return it, that timeline will be plunged into darkness as indicated by the dark line in that scene. Hulk explains that he will ensure the Time Stone will be returned an instant after it was taken. So from the perspective of that reality, it barely left for under a minute. The branched reality that The Ancient One refers to is a diverged dark path. Returning the stone only averts that dark branch, but leaves the timeline as is. The disagreement between the writers and directors was this. The writers intended that only when a stone is taken, it leads to the birth of a new timeline. If not, then the prime timeline is to be affected because of the change to the past. Meaning, the glove goes missing in the main timeline. And also, Steve spends his life with Peggy in the main timeline. The Directors didn't want to have it this way because far too much care needs to be taken to ensure that the previous films are not messed up because of a massive decision like that. After all there were 20+ films to take care of. Remember in X-Men DOFP, how they erased X1, X2, X3? The directors didn't want to create any inconsistencies between Endgame and the previous movies. The directors instead decided to keep it consistent. Any travel to the past, stone or not, will cause a new timeline. That way everything is neat and clean. Hope that helps?
I would add that the writers originally wrote the time travel per the rules of Back to the Future - but in their own words - it didn't work. It was a mess precisely because every trip to the past destroys the continuity of another trip to the past. It's just a cluster. That's when Marvel hired the physicists - and they advised multiverse time travel. That is confirmed by the directors and that's what's in the film. By the way Mcfeely freely acknolwedges all this. He said in an interview that Cap goes back to an alternate timeline. It's Marcus the other writer - who got upset about it. 😂 Barry linked to a funny interview where you can hear the two writers briefly argue over it.
@@harishyam- No time travel in Endgame can result in any one going back and changing the prime timeline. Any travel to the past will create a new timeline. Steve lives his life with Peggy in an alternate timeline. Post her death, he returns to the prime MCU timeline, on the bench.
But how is Steve choosing the timeline to go back to? Did they keep tabs on them? Because every other instance they created a new timeline when they went back in time. How would Steve be able to travel back to a particular past if going to the past creates a new timeline? And how are they able to travel to the "main timeline" instead of traveling to a different timelines future? Do the stones remember the timeline they came from so they can get back to it?
@@cinemattic_multiverse Cap had enough Pym Particles with him. The machine was all set up and running. Cap had is GPS which was configured against the machine pointing the location of the timelines missing the stones. The rest is not shown, but he navigates to each of the timelines to return the stones.
@@baryflawless okay thank you, and I thought that alternate timelines were only formed if a stone is taken out of the timeline, so why is cap in an alternate timeline? One more question that has bothering me, how did Thanos know where to find the stones in Infinity War? Like how did he know to go to Wakanada, and how did the Black Order know Vision was in Scotland?
@@cinemattic_multiverse actually, no. Timelines are a result of Pym particles. Traveling back in time to your own past creates a new timeline. Remember Hulk's statement here when they discuss time travel in the base. Removing a stone makes that timeline vulnerable and to maintain balance, it needs to be returned to that timeline. Think about the 2014 timeline. That has the two Nebulas interfering well before they go near the power stone. Even if they didn't touch the power stone, Thanos would have found out about the future and used Pym particles to get to 2023. I'm not sure how Thanos found out locations in Infinity War. But he's been on the hunt for them for ages. He once sent Loki to get it, then decided to do it himself. So I'd recon he always knew, once get had his gauntlet ready, he gets his army ready and heads to get them.
That's a likely possibility. I mean, Kang is the villain who weaponized time and I could see him as the descendant of Tony Stark (instead of Reed like in the comics) from the future.
I think its hulk or a future hulk like maestro hulk. Why? he's the only known survivor of wearing the gauntlet. We learned that both thanos and Tony were futurists. What they both had in common as Thanos mentioned to Tony "Your not the only one cursed with knowledge". I think that gives the hint that wearing and using all the stones makes the experience influential across ones own time to go after something they want and how to do it. Perhaps even bleeds across multiverses too or where ever the character exits as visions and dreams. We saw both thanos and Tony fighting for some future outcome that haunted them. But we haven't seen what it did to the hulk. We do know he is now smart hulk and maybe that bleed backwards in time to his character and is why he was able to merge with his old angry persona so quickly vs the past since it was so near in time to the event where he would wear it. Plus he mumbles "its mostly gamma...its like I was meant for this".
@@axceljulio5747 I think that's probably better for the mcu continuity if kane is descendant of stark instead of Reed richerds even if we do get the fantastic four in the mcu
There is also the timeline where Clint goes back to his house and takes a glove. That created another timeline. Even a small change like that could lead to a different future.
That is true. That timeline is missing a glove. Also each of these branches would initially head in a path without the stones. And later be clipped to look like the red lines after Steve returns the Stones. I've kept it to the key timelines to avoid crowding.
@@keretaman yes, that's right. We don't know what happens to those Thanos. But as Dr. Strange said. Of all the futures, one one makes it. The other timelines, Thanos Or someone else dusts the population.
If you remember the Chat between the Ancient one and Banner, she warned him that removing the time stones will create alternate realities (Timelines) Banner then said it would be corrected by returning the stones back to there original place / time. So those timelines no longer exist? The point of replacing them was to have history take its natural course.
@@Scrub.v1 yes, taking the stones out is one of the main divergences of that timeline. Because of taking the Time Stone, Dr. Strange would not be able to protect the earth. This would be a turn to the darkness for that timeline. By replacing the stone at that very instant, the dark path would be averted and the timeline would, are you rightly said, follow the natural course of its own history.
Bob Gale, Screenwriter for the back to the future has an interesting comment: *One of the things that I'm really proud of is that we were able to explain time travel in a way that even a nine-year-old can understand it. That scene in Avengers: Endgame where they're sitting around and talking about time travel, I understand that when they first previewed the movie, [it] didn't have that scene in it. I was told that in the focus groups, people said, 'Well, wait a minute, in Back to the Future they could do this and they could do that.' And the filmmakers realized, 'Oh damn, we gotta deal with that, because everybody's knowledge of time travel, today, in 2019, comes from those movies. So they had to put that scene where Ant-Man says, 'What do you mean? Back to the Future's bullshit.'*
Nice! And the really cool thing there, which many people missed completely, is that they were not trying to bash up Back To The Future. They were paying homage to the film. It's the film that really set the tone for using time travel in a light and easy manner. Specifically BTTF-2. It was the film that threw in the concept of the sequel happening alongside the prequel. It was unprecedented. Endgame had the same thing, we had scenes set against the backdrop of the previous MCU movies. But the makers figured they had a lesson to learn about the Grandfather Paradox. They decided to avoid that by introducing multiple timelines. This is the central point of difference. They had to be careful in the past, but not care too much. Calling BTTF came across as scorning the film, but it really was not. Every time travel film mentioned in that conversation were all the films the makers loved and learned from. ❤❤❤
@@RitikMaurya07 The writers wanted to make it so that only removal of a stone causes a new timeline. But the directors disagreed and for perfectly right reasons. Think about the 2014 timeline. The two nebulas interlock. Thanos already knows the infinity saga and his death. Even if the team didn't touch the Power Stone, the events of the future will be rewritten causing a massive paradox and plot hole in the movie. So the directors took corrective actions and executed the film with the concept that any time travel causes a new timeline. They avoided the mistake X-Men DOFP did. Therefore, that missing glove is also in a new timeline. From the Butterfly Effect, we know that even a small event could cause massive cascading effects.
*Loki director Kate Herron interview on what happened at the end of Season 1* _"So the way I see it in my head is that the TVA exists outside of space and time, but reality and everything as we understood it has completely changed in the last few minutes. With the multiverse branching, how do we know the TVA still exists in that way? We don’t know, and I suppose that’s a big question that will be answered as the show goes on. But in my head, the intention is that Sylvie thinks she’s sending him back to the TVA, but because of the way time and branches are crossing each other outside the window, Loki has unfortunately been sent back somewhere very different. So reality has shifted just by the nature of what He Who Remains said, and the idea is that he’s in this alternate TVA now."_
Looks like Kate has understood what the writers are still trying to grasp. 😂 I have this very bad feeling that the writers are going to come up with - "Oh that version of the TVA was 'replaced' by this one and because of their 'connect', Morbius and B-15 will begin 'recollecting' their alternate past". Don't ask me why, but too many films have gone down this path and messed it all up. Separate, isolated timelines just removes all plot-holes and paradoxes.. but writers for some reason can never stick to it. However, I really wish I'm proved wrong!
So, since Tony snapped away the Thanos from 2014…there’s technically a timeline where IW basically never happens. Like Thanos and his army just disappear and no one sees them ever again. I know that’s not the main timeline, and it’ll probably never be touched upon again. But it’s cool to think about how there’s a timeline where IW and EG basically never happen.
2014 timeline where there is no Thanos and army. This could mean that Ronan was powerful enough to try and procure all the stones. So there may have been an IW - but with very different outcomes. An important thing to note here is that the Gamora that we see in Guardians Of The Galaxy 3 is from this 2014 timeline, she doesn't go back and decides to live on in 2023 in the prime timeline. So the Quill in the 2014 timeline never gets to meet her. Lastly, if you've watched Loki (the Series), TVA purges timelines that are too divergent. So the 2014 timeline may have been terminated too making Gamora the only survivor from that timeline.
@@bharatkrishna975 They touched upon the subject of your first paragraph with the first episode of What If Season 2, but with a slightly different circumstances
*Infinity Stones work in any Universe/timeline or reality.* The Infinity Stones from the main timeline are atomized by Thanos. The Avengers create alternate timelines in the multiverse - which post Loki - we call Nexus Events. Alternate timelines are alternate Universes. This is why - when Nebula kills Nebula from an alternate Universe she doesn't die. She is not killing herself from the past. She has killed a different person. This is why - when Thanos travels from an alternate Universe to fight the Avengers - killing him does not alter the past. The snap still happened. This is why they can't solve the film by killing baby Thanos. This is why they can't solve the film by going back into the past to get the stones so Thanos doesn't ever get them. If you understand that the time travel creates alternate timelines, then you understand that at the end of the film, the Avengers have gathered 6 stones from 4 different timelines and used them to bring everyone in the main timeline. *The stones work in any timeline.* The idea that they don't comes from comic books, not the MCU. Comic books are *not* canon to the MCU.
The most devastating has to be the alternate 2014 timeline. Thanos , Gamora and Nebula are nolonger there an no Infinity War happens. Also the events of GotG vol.2 are effected by Gamora and Nebulas absence. Its even possible EGO the living planet wins without them involved in helping Quill.
That is true, they can do nothing to rectify that timeline. Though there is no Thanos, Ronan might be the one to collect all the stones. He might even snap most living beings out of existence.
@@awesomerperson2699 Thanos and Gamora came on their own will, well Thanos at least, and Gamora served him blindly. On their own, Tony or Nat wouldn't leave their own timelines, their own people, and come to another timeline.
Watched tons of videos and this one was the only one that made sense to me. Your explanation is top notch. The color coding on the video helped me visualize it easily too. I was curious at first how Cap in ice and 2023 Cap would overlap. I browsed in the comments and thought the same too in which 2023 Cap will fill in the frozen Cap. Mad props to your explanation so I left a like. Thank you for this! Finally I can get some sleep 🤣
Cheers to that. Thanks and glad you found the explanation useful. Yeah, companies like Looper and ScreenRant caused a lot of confusion by having people make semi-informational videos about the film. But they won the SEO war and appear on top of searches. :)
This is a really good explanation of why the Avengers didn't actually win. They created 6 other timelines in which Thanos would still snap (Loki's being the possible exception).
They wouldn’t have won - if Iron Man had not snapped. Of course we don’t know yet *for a fact* what the effects of IronMan’s snap was - implicitly if this is the 1 scenario where the Avengers win - then that means that Thanos has been disabled from attacking the Avengers from across the multiverse. My assumption is that Iron Man snapped him out of existence in the other timelines. Otherwise he is still out there and could still attack- and Dr. Strange would know this. Also since the stones effect all timelines - which is the basis of how the Avengers were able to gather them, then any Thanos in any timeline can destroy the Universe (or balance as Thanos would have it) in *all* timelines. I have theory as to how this will play out, but some things we just can’t know until the story continues....
Actually they created 11 new timelines. When Cap goes back he dossnt actually go back to the timelines missing stones because those timelines have continued past that point. He creates a new timeline for each stone and even then that means that each new timeline had a duplicate of one of the stones and the 5 first timeline jumps are missing a stone each (which means that the gauntlet in those timelines cant be used to it's full potential). Timelines mess literally everything up because theres so many loopholes!
Now that Loki has come out, I have some questions. 1. Does free will exist in MCU? In Loki, they said that everything has already been determined by the time-keepers - does this mean that there is no free will and events such as the Avengers defeating Thanos were already determined? 2. What exactly is the sacred timeline? Is it just one singular timeline that the time-keepers have determined to be the "correct" timeline, or is it multiple timelines intertwined that are very similar and produce a result that the time-keepers want, or is it something else? 3. If the sacred timeline is a singular timeline, how are there multiple Loki variants with differing powers and features, wouldn't all the variants be the same Loki who became variants at different points in time?
Great questions: 1) I believe that the Time Keepers only want to ensure there is no free will and that a sacred set of events happen from the beginning to the end of time (assuming time is linear). We don't know yet, but it looks like this show is going to show TVA lose control on their operation and it will lead to multiple timelines/universes. Let's not forget, Endgame has already left us with multiple timelines. The way Endgame has defined its multiple timelines is exactly how one would define multiple universes - similar realities with copies of people, places and events, but altered in minor or major ways. Minor - missing glove. Major - Dead Nebula. No event in the alternate timeline affects the MCU prime timeline. So I really can't see how a timeline behaves differently from a universe. Besides, we already know that timelines already existed at one point an the TVA then "brought things to order". So to your question - yes, free will exists, Time Keepers doesn't like it. 2) Going based on the concept that a timeline and a universe are similar in nature, it appears that there can't be exactly one timeline/universe, but one sacred flow of events that all timelines/universes must abide by. If any event results in a drastically different timeline/universe, that timeline/universe is deleted before it can spiral out of control (control of the TVA). Why do I feel there can't be exactly "one" timeline/universe? - Because we already know of a timeline/universe where Nebula is dead and so is Thanos. We know those events can't be undone. The events to unfold after the disappearance of Thanos and Nebula in 2014 is bound to change the future of that timeline/universe. There is no magic wand or reset charge that can "fix" this. Dead is dead, especially Nebula who didn't die of the Tony's snap. The 2014 timeline has changed so much that it can never be merged back to the Prime Timeline because of dead people. All that TVA can ensure is that the future events in the 2014-timeline are within the definition of "sacred". 3) I think you and I have the same dilemma Jonathan. Loki being born as a woman was not what TVA considered to be a deviation. If so, they would have tried to delete it. We also know from the show that Loki exists in many forms and each one is from one timeline/universe. So the real problem is definition. A timeline is treated very lightly - something that can just be "reset" and aligned back to the one sacred timeline. Where as they are going to introduce multiple-universes which will allow for multiple Lokis. But as we were shown in Endgame, a Timeline is similar (if not the same) as a Universe. Your thoughts?
1.) *Does free will exist in the MCU?* ⬆️ Does free will exist, period? Start with the fact that this question is not answerable in physics. If you have access to *Cosmos* (PBS doc) - Episode 9 *Possible Worlds.* It’s a fun look at how Quantum Physics concept of “entanglement” implied that the possible explanation for two entangled objects communicating instantaneously across infinite space is because everything that would happen to them had already happened. In other words - it’s like listening to two songs and not being able to explain how they are the same, even if their sounds could never have reached each other. It makes sense if the sounds are really just recordings, being listened to in two different places. That’s not the only conclusion of course - others include the idea that there are an infinite number of songs freely recorded - so that it is inevitable that some are identical. IE - multiple realities. Anyway if you watch Cosmos it makes the discussion fun. It makes clear *why* we don’t really have the answer to the question of the existence of free will. Everyone prefers free will though in storytelling and I’m sure that’s where the MCU’s multiverse story will end.
2) The term sacred timeline is singular, but remember even per the TVA - the sacred timeline is created by the time keepers, and is the result of a multiverse war. They are constantly preserving one timeline - by eliminating others. The reset charges are literally *time bombs.*
3) Let’s say I go back in time to the day before you were conceived. I create a branch timeline. This time when you are conceived a girl is born instead of a boy. Let’s repeat this process 10 times, until their are 5 times when your parents have a son, and 5 times a daughter. The TVA upon examine this timelines would see the connection between different realities in which *you* were born as either a boy or a girl. The show calls this identification process *temporal aura.* So they would identify your variants as Gender Fluid. Loki Laufeyson is also Sylvie Laufeydautir - even if we presume the *sacred* timeline Loki is male - both the Loki’s in this show are variants. That’s why Sylvie says to Loki: *If anything you are me!*
*Loki episodes 1* and time travel. In an interview the director and writer talk about staying up at night fretting over the rules of time travel in the MCU. We’ll have to see how the show ends up, but here are my thoughts two episodes in. The shows early goal is to moot both magical powers and Infinity Stones. Here’s how… The TVA is created by the time keepers. It is strongly suggested that one of the time Keepers is Kang. They frame him right behind Judge Renslayer who is his girlfriend in the comics so if he isn’t Kang then this is an intentional misdirect. Kang will be featured in Antman Quantum Mania. Kang is the time travel villain from the future. He has technology *from the end of time.* (ie - ultimate technology) The TVA exists in a null/space time dimension created by the time keepers. Null space/time zone isn’t a story telling coincidence or plot hole - it is a strategy weapon used by the time keepers to further their agenda. Their agenda is to make sure that the events of the Universe play out *the way they want it.* They are not “heroes” of the story or objective parties conveying exposition to the audience. *They are unreliable narrators with a self serving agenda.* Their existence across multiple cycles of life and death in the Universe is dependent upon what they see as the *sacred* timeline. Sacred to them - is that preserves their existence. Not so sacred to Loki - the most likely outcome of the show is that Loki will wreck their plans. The show isn’t even subtle about it: Miss Minutes says the time keepers are trying to prevent the multiverse from collapsing into madness. The writers for this show are also *writing Dr. Strange Multiverse of Madness.* duh 😂 Time Keepers are worshipped by the TVA drones (who are really glorified slaves), as Gods. Are the TVA agents also robots? Reject variants?? In the null space time dimension: *Infinity Stones are useless* -> Magic is also useless. Not just Loki’s magic. Any magic. Dr. Strange. Odin?! All magic. This is critical as otherwise the TVA would be easily destroyed. That’s why the Infinity Stones and magic are mooted within the TVA. We can’t judge yet how well the story is going to handle time travel but thus far they have been respectful of continuity. Even though one of the writers, Michael Waldron’s, comments are a little bit precious, he sounds a bit like Christopher Marcus, JK Rowling. Sometimes the writers let success go to their heads and the more they talk the less sense their stories make. That’s a writer for you. 😎
Wow. This is good education. Funny that I've read so much marvel but never encountered the TVA arks. I didn't know the writers are the same for Loki and Dr. Strange. This is great info because there will be more pressure to keep the MCU timeline definitions up. I'm happy with the way Loki has started. Cheers to a great show! And as always .. thank you. 🙂
From Loki episode 1: “Long ago, there was a vast multiversal war. Countless unique timelines battled each other for supremacy, nearly resulting in the total destruction of… …well, everything. But then, the all-knowing Time-Keepers emerged, bringing peace by reorganizing the multiverse into a single timeline, the Sacred Timeline.” -> The McU is multiverse of countless unique timelines. -> It was this way *before* there was a TVA. -> The TVA is trying to reduce the multiverse into a single timeline. -> This is no different than a conquerer wanting to combine all nations into a single nation. -> It is not the case that there actually is *a single timeline* - which was somehow broken and the time keepers are trying to restore it. -> It is a political construct of the time keepers seeking absolute power over time - and the elimination of free will.
This is the best explanation of Endgame's Time Travel on RUclips. Only 3 minutes, but it's clear and straight to the point. Also, most people think that old Steve was in MCU all along, but it doesn't match with the Time Travel rules that the movie told us. You can't change the past, you can only create another timeline. And Steve did it, and then returned to the original timeline. Even directors confirmed it, but writers are spreading the theory that Cap was there all along.
Agreed, this is the best explanation on the internet. 21 thousand views and no one has refuted it. I've actually pointed some single-timeline fan fiction-ers to this site to invite them to do so. Mostly they just duck out quietly. Wonder why? :0)
Thanks for the love guys. I'm usually a fan of the writers for most films, but the decision the directors made in this film was the best thing they did for the entire MCU we've watched over the years. I don't find it fair to erase the previous movies from existence just to enable a story for one movie. Like @SummerTyme and I were discussing in an other thread, this is exactly what Days Of Future Past of the X-Men did. It simply wiped out the original events of X1, X2 and X3. Endgame showed us nostalgic moments of the older films through time travel just like Back To The Future 2, but ensured they didn't change our experiences of watching the previous films, those are still intact. The writer's approach would have opened Pandora's box on the MCU universe we've watched and loved.
This Is Barry This is why filmmaking needs to be collaborative. Sometimes you need someone else to check your worst impulses. Another example that comes to mind is the great David Fincher. (Fight Club, Seven) - he directed Alien 3. He made the decision to kill Newt (the little girl that Ripley saved). This was meant to take her character down a path of complete despair - the the result of this forever destroys the two previous films - because in fact her efforts are all for nothing. And Alien 3 offers Ripley no redemption or catharsis that the audience can share in. It’s just an exercise in masochism. But why? Given Fincher’s brilliance? Ego is why. He needed to kill the previous story in order to tell his own. Same with Marcus and McFeely - by the way - ill repeat that I think they deserve an Oscar nomination for their screenplay - it’s the PR afterwards that has been a disaster. They got possessive over one story point - and would not let it go. They began by writing Back2theFuture time travel which failed, because in fact, it doesn’t make sense. But this also means that their bright idea of having Cap always be married to Peggy the whole time - doesn’t make sense. And it never will.
Stones command physics. Quantum Tunnel time travel obeys physics. Analogy: Star Lord's starship moves thru space based on the sci fi physics of space travel involving Jump Points (basically space warp/worm hole) The space stone: Commands space. It's ultimate expression is Omnipresence - where anything can be anywhere instantaneously. At the end of the film, Thanos wants to use the stones to do-over the Universe. There are no laws of physics to impede this because the laws would only be whatever he would make them. The point is, best not to get the time stone caught up in the mechanics of Quantum Tunnel time travel in the film. ' The stones when combined, are basically God mode.
EndGame has a simple and elegant concept of time travel. You can summarize in one sentence. *You can’t change the past.* The filmmakers communicated this clearly. It’s the writers who fixated on a specific agenda, which is in conflict with this concept. If you follow the writers they lead you down a rabbit hole, where the best you can do is choose to believe something that makes no sense, and makes a complete nonsense of the entire film. That’s your choice. But you can’t pretend that it makes any sense.
Funny that the writers talk about scientists who were brought in to talk about quantum physics where a single particle exists in multiple realities, meaning multiple timelines and then still cycling back to the idea that Cap as an exception went back to his own timeline. Anyways, it is not the writers decision as to what theory to apply. It's the director and the studio's and thankfully they stuck with new timelines every time one traveled back in time. So, phew.
What we do know about time in science as opposed to science fantasy. *We don’t fully understand time.* *We consider time to be a mysterious other dimension. The 3 dimensions of space are, height, width and depth combine with the 4th dimension which is time.* *Together these 4 dimensions are space/time.* *Everything in the Universe moves thru space/time.* *Everything has a total velocity thru space time that is exactly THE SAME speed.* (yes that’s correct - read again 😎) *However the act of moving faster thru space - means you move slower through time. Conversely moving slower thru space means you move faster thru time.* *The above is why time is relative and speed thru space is absolute.* *So - as you move faster thru space and slower thru time - the reason you hit a speed limit at the speed of light is because at that speed thru space - time comes to a stop* *In turn this implies that moving faster than the speed of light - would take you backwards thru time, and so......*
Professor Hulk: *I'm gonna send you back a week, let you walk around for an hour, then bring you back in 10 seconds. Make sense?* _Send you back a week:_ So if it were January 8th, you will travel back in time to January 1st. _Let you walk around for an hour:_ You will spend one hour moving around on January 1st. _Bring you back in 10 seconds:_ If you left on January 8th at 12:00 AM you’d come back January 8th *12:00 AM…ten seconds.* Actually yes, It does make sense. 😎
One of my favourite conversations. 💖 When Endgame released, the world of Time-Travel movies had already seen enough and more complex films, specifically the big-bad-wolves like Primer and Predestination. Fans of the sub genre were already equipped with the base understanding of a Single-Predestined-Timeline vs the glitchy Re-Written-Timeline vs the Multiple-Concurrent-Timelines. When Endgame hit with time-travel, the regular sub-genre geeks got it quick enough, validated which concept was used and enjoyed the film. But there was a whole other set of MCU fans who weren't following time-travel as a sub-genre that keenly. And without that, Endgame became hard to enjoy. Many of the questions that kept coming up after the film were all of these questions that came up in the early 90s when the time-travel sub-genre started seeing a lot of traction. Many MCU fans had to "catch-up" with the base concepts of time-travel, the paradoxes, the scenarios - all in a rushed manner. I'm guessing it would have been so difficult and mind-numbing. DOFP helped a little, good cast and story, but that timeline execution (read glitchy Re-Written-Timeline) just WREAKED it for the XCU. Logan was beautifully done keeping in mind the timeline re-write and the subtle changes like "Alkali Transigen". But the pathway for future films got destroyed because of the decision to allow the first couple of movies to be erased. XCU fans lost track because the movies they remembered watching over the years, never happened, which is a terrible thing to do to your own franchise. MCU's decision to not delete their 20+ films, I would like to believe, came from the learnings of DOFP's decision 😊. So when Clint has his "walk-around" and returned with a glove, that glove belongs to another timeline, even if all that changed was so little, but it was a change nevertheless. Endgame did it's fair share to summarize time-travel from the last 20 years within the run-time they had. This dialogue was well-placed to help viewers understand why Steve returned so old in just 10-20 seconds. 💖
When the movie came out, that is exactly how I understood the time travel in the movie. It seemed really strait forward. Even the part about cap living in a different time line and then coming back to the original one after Peggy dies. I had to explain this to my friends a million times
The problem was the other big online movie sites, they jumped the gun and produced videos stating things that were never intended by the directors. This caused all the confusion in that first two weeks of the movie release (... and till date). After that, it was a complete cluster until the directors had to come and say what they intended.
*“It's not a time loop." "Both Ancient One and Hulk were right. You can't change the future by simply going back to past. But it's possible to create a different alternate future. It's not butterfly effect. Every decision you made in the past could potentially create a new timeline. For example, the old Cap at the end movie, he lived his married life in a different universe from the main one. He had to make another jump back to the main universe at the end to give the shield to Sam."* - Joe and Anthony Russo. The directors understand their film - and their explanation of it makes sense. If you disagree and insist that there is some sort of loop that can have Captain America go back to his own past, then none of the entire Infinity Saga can make any sense. But then you would have only yourself, not the film to blame.
we don't know what the main universe is any more since the stones were destroyed. You have to be real careful when relying on the russo's. All their trailers were effectively orchestrated to lear you in a false direction vs what they were going for on purpose to prevent spoilers. If that behavior is canon so is maybe what they say is deceptive too. The writers on the contrary say the exact opposite of what they wrote which the russos did follow. Plus for steve to live in a branched timeline he would have to remove a stone first as the ancient one said to make a new one then hope he lives thru it in time to leave it and clip it. Plus figure out how to get the stone out and keep it safely but thats the only way it could be separate. But steve says himself..."after i returned the stones I thought of a life tony said I should get". Now remember steve went back to 1947ish. All stones were in play no stones were removed. Then with no stones removed its a time loop and would explain why there is no real record of Peggy's husband no photos and even Nick Fury didn't know? Why do that. Because he did live a different life than from the main universe. He was neither cpt america nor steve rogers. In His own new reality he would have to be completely......different. Then at the end return to his old identity and life to pass the shield.
"You have to be real careful when relying on the Russo's" Bah. Sure they try to hide their upcoming film's from the leakers by intentionally misleading. But that's both understandable and in good fun - in the age of the Internet when it is almost impossible to keep films secret and so prevent them from being spoiled. You are trying to justify *not paying attention to the film* and *not listening to the filmmakers* - not in order to find out what "really" happened (in a fantasy film?), but rather in order to trick yourself into replacing the film with the fan fiction in your own mind. This is a common tactic of fan fiction by the way. Heck I even do it too. For example - in my head Canon - the Star Wars story ended after Return of the Jedi, and the last 6 films, never happened. :0)
I agree. I find endgame’s time travel pretty simple because instead of “directly changing the past” which could cause potential paradoxes, Endgame uses the concept of alternate timelines and realities, and I gotta say, the Russos truly nailed it with the concept. Plus, changing the past wouldn’t really make sense. For example, in x men days of the future past, they had to directly change the timeline, which felt so confusing. As well made as the movie is, I found X men’s time travel to be so confusing because it just feels like an excuse to reset, therefore breaking the continuity. Endgame doesn’t do that. It keeps the original timeline intact and creates alternate timeline branches, therefore keeping continuity in the original timeline. So that being said, Endgame’s portrayal of time travel pretty much works because instead of changing the past directly, they use the concept of alternate realities and timelines.
@@noobmaster69426 nice summary and comparison against DOFP. The way DOFP did it, they pretty much erased the events of the first 3 films, which is a terrible thing to do to the previous movies.
what i dont get is once you've created an alternate timeline from going back in time. why is it that when you travel forward, you return to the original timeline? and not the future of the alternate timeline you created.
I use the analogy of phone system, where the Quantum Tunnel or time machine is the phone company switch, or service provider. The phone company switch is the hub where all the calls actually go. It's the part of the system that knows where you are, and connects you to someone else. The point is - if you talk to someone on your cell phone - you can't see the phone company in the middle - but they are there and without them the phones don't work. Time travel begins with Quantum Tunnel. You enter the Quantum Realm. You signal the Quantum Tunnel to tell it where to forward or transfer your (call) destination. When the Avengers travel for 2012 further back in time to 1970, the process is still the same. They still shrink into the Quantum Realm and the GPS is still a cell phone talking to the Quantum Tunnel at Avengers tower - again this is the service provider. But this time - instead of bringing them back to Service Center - it forwards them on - to their next destination. Of course it's all SCI_FI silliness but I personally understand more about how time travel works in this *one film* than I do from 60 years of Doctor Who. 😂
But there is one thing that still needs an explanation. When Cap goes back in time to return all the stone and then decided to live his life in the past with peggy so when he comes back, why he didn't landed on the quantum tunnel?
He doesn't have to. He can land anywhere. The platform is just the default location. When Steve and Tony go from New York to New Jersey, there is no quantum on either sides. They can move through spacetime. The chair is one such place in spacetime.
@@shaharyarshahid1370 Cap and Tony steal 4 vials of pym particles. One round trip takes one vial, or one jump takes half a vial. We know this when Scott goofs up to go back and return, he uses one vial. So Cap and Tony have 4 vials, they each use half to return to 2023. Now Steve is left with 3 vials for this trip to return all the stones. This is 6 trips. I would imagine on his way back, he stopped again in 1970 to grab more pym particles if needed.
@@baryflawless I have never understood the question about the Pym particles at films end. *The only reason* why they have a shortage of Pym particles - is that Hank Pym is snapped. But at the end of the film he is shown at Tony’s funeral. Once Hank Pym is back - they would have all the Pym particles they need. Clearly that was the original plan. Obviously AntMan and Wasp will continue to get Pym particles from Hank, so what’s the problem? Also at the end of the film Banner has built a new Time Machine. Remember Thanos destroyed the one in the Avengers compound which is *why* they tried to use the one in the van. Then Thanos destroyed the Van. So Banner built a new one. Imaginary conversation with Banner: *Great Bruce, but now where will you get the Pym particles....?* Bruce: *Uhm....Hank Pym?* 😎
This is a great explanation, thanks for sharing! Now, something this video doesn't talk about is the erase of the timelines once Captain America returned the Infinity Stones. We may assume that the ones highlighted in red were erased, while the last one in blue remained (considering that is the Russo brothers' point of view, since the writters said that old Steve lived in the main timeline all along).
Thanks a lot Martin. About the red timelines. Let's consider how they were created - through time travel, powered by Pym Particles. All of those timelines changed before the stones were taken. Some very badly, eg Loki escapes, or Thanos knows about a possible future. None of these timelines can be erased by returning the stone as the stone was taken only after the timeline was created. Returning the stone merely ensures that new timeline doesn't go down a dark path, eg: Dormammu destroys Earth because there is no time-stone hence no Dr. Strange. Removing the dark path is what is referred to in the movie as "clipping the branches".
Agreed. And the story goes out of its way to make sure that the timelines they created can't be easily re-converged. I would say watch the Loki series. It's very existence is based on a Loki from the 2012 timelines having some sort of misadventures. There is a fun theory craft going around that suggests Loki will turn out to be the rat who gets Scott out of the Quantum Tunnel. Why was he turned into a rat? Maybe to make sure he completes the mission and then returns. [in order to be changed back]
@@baryflawless I guess you're right. Actually, despite all the analysis I've seen and the discussions I've had, I never thought about that fact that certain small but significant events took place before the stones were taken. Thanks, Barry.
Ah yes, they always start with changing the past to change the future. Part 1. Then they realize that A) this makes no sense and B) the story has *no* continuity if you can auto-erase with time travel. Then…… they retcon and start talking about multiple timelines. Lol. Endgame got it right from the start. Now we will see if they can avoid messing it up.
*Back to the Future vs. Endgame vs. Tenet vs. time travel* B2TF is arguably the best of the 3 films. However it is a comedy and its time travel concepts are completely ridiculous. That's what makes it funny to begin with. B2TF can no more be understood thru physics than Wile E Coyote vs. Road runner can. B2TF like Road Runner, *makes a joke* out of physics. Tenet is a film that writes its own rules of time travel. The rules are quite complicated and their whole purpose is to selectively invert causality, while avoiding paradox. In Tenet for specific inverted objects effect can come before cause. Endgame does *not* create any new rules of time travel. It just follows multiverse theory. In Endgame you cannot travel back to the past, because - cause comes before effect - per physics. Instead the act of traveling to the past creates an alternate reality in the multiverse. This is *not* impossible in physics and requires only a source of energy so that the laws of Thermodynamics are adhered to. Pym particles in the MCU are such a source of energy. The Big Bang theory posits that the Universe - the whole Universe - is created from a singularity. A single [particle] which was many trillions of times *smaller* than an atom. Multiverse theory just says that this happens multiple times, and sense we don't a device like Pym's Quantum Tunnel - we just have no way to prove it. Yet.
*Tenet and Endgame and causality* Tenet has a Temporal Stile. [the analogy is to a turn style or revolving door]. This reverses entropy. When you go thru the door you move thru time - backwards. When you go thru again, you turn around and begin moving forward from a point in the past. You loop back once, and then go thru. That's fine except if for example you encounter yourself on the way back and fight to the death, then that means you killed yourself before you went thru the door in the 1st place. Begging the question of how? Since you were never there. *This part is the same grandfather paradox that befuddles all single timeline time travel.* Endgame has a Quantum Tunnel. [the analogy is to a cell phone carrier switch], with the space time GPS being the smart phone, and the Pym particle being the battery. Endgame's version of reverse entropy is when time is sent thru Scott. When this happens Scott's entropy is inverted in a completely different dimension [the Quantum Realm] outside of our space and time. His entropy moving in a reverse direction therefore does not conflict with *our* Universe's entropy. In simple terms: *Scott cannot meet and accidentally kill himself within the Quantum Realm* - such that he never entered the Quantum Realm to begin with. This does not violate causality.
It makes perfect sense until the part when Hulk explains to the Ancient One that once they defeat Thanos, they'd come back before the stones were taken to return it. So would the new times lines be totally erased?
@@noobmaster69426 the branches he's going to clip are the realities without the stones which would be dark outcomes like Dormammu taking over. But with the stone returned the instant after it was taken, that dark branch will be clipped.
What are the time travel rules in the film? *Answer:* You can’t change the past because it already happened. Instead - you create an alternate timeline. Then how can they return the stones to the past? *Answer:* They don’t. Reread the above answer, then answer this question ⬇️ When you travel to an alternate timeline, are you in its past, present, or future? *Answer:* You are in the *present* of an alternate timeline in the multiverse.
Still don't understand the part where Thor went to his timeline, but during that time... Thor was in Asgard in the basement dealing with Loki and the prisoners. It was only moments before the dark elves attacked. So... That's a timeline paradox there. If Thor summon the hammer, then wouldn't the hammer had flew away from the other Thor in 2014 while he was fighting the dark elves in the basement/cellers? Plz explain!
This event of taking the Hammer happens before the basement fight with the dark elves. At that instant the Hammer was not in use. Let's assume fat Thor took the Hammer at 10:00AM and left with rocket. At 10:01AM Steve would return it (along with the Aether). So from the perspective of the 2014 timeline, the Hammer was gone only for a minute. The 2014 Thor would summon it to fight off the Dark Evles and never know that this Hammer was wielded by a Captain America in 2021 to beat up Thanos.
Okay I got a question. From the POV of the Ancient One, how long was the time stone gone? Did Steve appear immediately after they disappeared from New York? Or did it take a day or so for him to reappear with it cuz ya know battle with Thanos, Tony’s funeral?
Let's assume The Ancient One gave the stone away in 2012 Feb 25th, at 3 PM. All Steve has to do is time travel back to 2012 Feb 25th, at 3:01PM. From the POV of The Ancient One it has been one minute. However for Steve it's been a couple of days.
@@baryflawless But isn't bruce himself said to Ancient One that in order to ruining the timeline, they need to return the stone RIGHT BEFORE it is taken, so it's never left
@@Dev1559 "Once we're done with the stones, we can return each one into its own timeline at the moment it was taken". Not before. I say hypothetically 1 min later because you want to avoid running into your past self.
McFeely on the multiverse: *It clearly exists, because Doctor Strange has talked all about it and it’s part of the fabric of that. This may be where I disagree with Marvel and where they’re going. I have no idea where Kevin Feige is going,” McFeely said. “I don’t know what’s happening tomorrow, but I’m a big believer in stakes. If you tell me that I can just go get another Natasha and another Tony and keep rolling, particularly my grandma’s gonna go, ‘Well, why did I watch that?'”* Many have noted that this comment seems to be contradictory for McFeely since they just created a movie with multiverse time travel, which for example, explains why Gamora is alive at the end of the film, but they seem to disagree with their own movie. The reality is more subtle and complex. Marcus and McFeely originally tried to write the story with Universe (not multiverse) time travel - in which you can change the past from the future. This led them to pursue a particular plot point - Get Captain America Back to the 1940’s with Peggy. However, this made a mess of the rest of the story (and the MCU). Once you allow the avengers to change the past, then the entire continuity of the MCU collapses and none of the films make any sense. They needed a concept of time travel that would allow them to revisit the past, and bring back those that Thanos killed, without rendering the entire story, and any story that comes before or will come after pointless. That’s why multiverse time travel was chosen. In short *it’s multiverse time travel that preserves the stakes in the story.* Multiverse time travel literally means - you cannot change the past. Mcfeely’s real objection to this - is precisely because the same process that preserves stakes - does not allow him and Marcus to retcon the MCU so that there can always be two Captain America’s in the past so that Cap can always have been Peggy’s husband. *The entire idea of sending Cap back to the main timeline actually destroys the stakes established in Caps original sacrifice where he went down with the plane and lost his life,* only to wake up 70 years later. In truth he is objecting to the very time travel rules that gives the story its stakes. This is why neither he nor Marcus can explain any concept of the film’s time travel rules that would support their retcon. It’s the same as the reason why Back2theFuture was rejected in the 1st place. The result would always be some form of B$, suitable only for the least sophisticated audiences who are still trying to figure out why Peter’s friends are still in high school.
Nicely said. Also, the same thing in the X-Men universe with DOFP erased all the X-Men Movies with the original cast, replacing it with an alternate future. After that, the films Apocalypse, Dark Phoenix and Logan needed to be in the new timeline. While Logan took the effort to establish that this timeline has subtle changes creating a butterfly effect, the other two just left it to us to figure things out. Rewriting the past in a multi part film series erases older movies from their existence and it doesn't feel good because you've been watching them over a decade. I really admire the idea of branched timelines because it keeps the MCU intact.
This Is Barry It is literally the only form of time travel that does not collapse into logical paradoxes. And this is important because if it does - you can’t tell continuing interlocking stories anymore. X-Men is a beautiful and terrible lesson for the MCU in this regard.
@@summertyme5748 very true. Also, in X-Men, one timeline is replaced by the other. It would have been less paradox prone if both timelines continued exist. While in one timeline the sentinels take out the XMen and in the other, Xander does.
*Time in our dimension vs time in the Quantum Realm* SCOTT LANG: Yeah, but that's just it. It wasn't. For me, it was five hours. SCOTT LANG: See, the rules of the Quantum Realm aren't like they are up here. Everything is unpredictable. ----------------------------------------------------- If we remember that the Quantum Realm is not a place or a time in our dimension, but is instead another dimension, and that the whole point of Hank Pym building the tunnel was to extract (rescue) Janet Van Dyne from that dimension, then we can say that the relationship between space/time between our dimension and the Quantum realm is *created by* the Quantum Tunnel connection. The fact that it was 5 hours for Scott - is therefore an arbitrary result of the the rat 🐁 lol activating the tunnel. It could have been 75 years for Scott - or in theory - Scott might have come out as a baby (the way he did in Professor Hulks experiment) and with no idea of how or why he was even sent into the Quantum Realm in the 1st place.
There's something that does not seem to quite align, as Banner explained: -If time travel works like going to another dimension, time should advance in the original dimension, and old cap couldn't have been back so soon. -If you actually go back in time, and this creates a new timeline, how do you come back? Sure, if you come back to a moment after you left, things would stay consistent, but what would prevent you to dimension travel back before, creating an inconsistency?
If someone leaves their timeline at say 13 : 00 : 00 and arrives back at 13 : 00 : 01, then as you say there will be no inconsistencies in that timeline. In the movie, the Prime Timeline experiences Steve leave and return after a couple of seconds. If Steve attempts to return at say 12 : 50 : 00, then he will create a new timeline off the prime MCU timeline. In this timeline, there would be two Steves one who is yet to leave on his mission and one who is old. The Prime Timeline will wait for Steve, but he will never return.
"time should advance in the original dimension" How? Definitely - *not.* What is a Universe? What is space , what is time? Our Universe is a space/time and the matter and energy within it. Another Universe is another space/time - it by definition is *not related* to our Universe - if it were, it would be a part of our Universe and not its own. Here is a question for you to consider as a thought experiment. The Avengers travel to an alternate Universe where the time is 2012 and place is New York. Question: in terms of space - how close or far is the New York of that Universe from New York in our Universe? Answer: It's not applicable. It's another Universe so therefore it has no relative distance in space from anything in our universe. If your answer is 1 mile or 11ty trillion miles it's equally wrong and irrelevant. This leads to: *What time is it - in another Universe - how fast is time moving in another universe relative to your own?* Answer: Unknown, and time is *not moving* in another Universe because it's not relative to begin with. Time is only relative *within* our Universe. Per the logic of Quantum mechanics - if time exists in another Universe - then it is another reality about which nothing can be said until and unless you somehow interact with it. *That's just what the Quantum tunnel does!* Professor Hulk is right - in theory they can take the stones into one reality for one million years - and still return to the precise present of this reality. The only thing they can't do - is return *before* they left. That is the causality limit. You can definitely leave one reality in the present - go to another reality for any amount of time - and then return to the earlier reality in the present. Any suggestion that there is a 'space/time' relationship between two universes is itself a paradox - since that relationship makes them *the same* Universe. Space and time must be independent if they are to be unique timelines.
Great explanation. Only thing missing is that when Cap goes back to the other timelines he actually creates 4 new timelines (8 in total) which will have duplicates of one of the infinity stones each whilst the timelines they took the stones from will always be missing one as time doesnt stop once you take the stones away.
Thanks a lot LB Actually not 8. Going to the past of your "own" timeline cause the new timeline, this is because you cannot alter "your own past". Going to 2012 of a whole other timeline is not "your past", there will be no rift here, therefore no new timeline. Cap ensures that these new timelines will not down a dark path without the stones. This is what he refers to as "clipping the branches".
@@baryflawless just doesnt make sense to me. That only makes sense if the timeline you first took the stones from ceased to continue until you brought them back. Time travel is the worst thing to happen to MCU because theres so many holes in it.
@@LB_die_Kaapie Think of the the new timeline created heading down a dark path, you can call this a branch. An example is if the time stone were taken, this timeline faces a dark path, one where Dr. Strange cannot protect Earth from Dormammu. By returning the time stone right after it was taken, this dark path is clipped. It never happens.
LB: Multiverse time travel doesn’t have holes in it. And it’s not complicated. Every single person who gets confused about it *makes it hard* because they try to apply the broken logic (paradoxes) of single timeline time travel to it. The thing is - Back to the future time travel is something they can understand - so they try to understand Endgame in that way. But *time travel* cannot be understood via Back to the Future - a comedy film in which the fact that it doesn’t make any sense is a part of the fun. If you understand the rules of multiverse time travel the film makes 100% sense.
Professor Hulk: “If you travel to the past, that past becomes your future. And your former present becomes the past. Which can't now be changed by your new future... Now, remember- You have to return the stones to the exact moment you got them. Or you're gonna open up a bunch of nasty alternative realities.” In multiverse time travel - you can’t change the past. When you travel back in time you create an alternate reality. The notion of alternate realities is a hypothesis from Quantum physics. *The only way the Avengers can return the stones to any particular timeline is from some point in time greater than or equal to the point they were taken.* That defines the PRESENT in the alternate timelines. Now - don’t lose track of the logic of multiverse time travel. “the past become your new future” The Present at the end of the film in the main time line is 2023. The Present - where Loki escapes with the tesseract is 2012. (That is not the *past* of the main timeline - It is the present of an alternate timeline) For Cap to take back the stones - without creating nasty alternative realities - he has to travel to that timelines present. IE 2014, 2013, 2012 and 1970 for each time heist timeline respectively. He can’t travel to those timelines past - ie - *before they took the stones* - because he would simply be in *another alternate timeline.* He also *can’t fix the issue by traveling to those timelines futures* - as those Universes would now have existed without an Infinity Stone - and with whatever disruption the Avengers caused (such as Loki escaping in 2012) -having now played out to ‘what’ unknown dark consequence. That is the meaning of Hulk’s explanation of time travel and instructions for Cap at films end.
Easy to understand and straight to the point. I like this kind of video. Anyway, I'm hoping that you could make a video and explain about how time works in Disney+ Loki series. Cheers
Thanks a bunch. I've put together my thoughts here on Season 1 - www.thisisbarry.com/film/loki-timeline-explained-sacred-timeline-and-mcu-timeline/ Warning - the show is doing a bad job with definitions of words like Timeline, Universe and Reality. The writers have given the fans a really hard time because that.
Given the events of Loki, I'm trying to figure out how exactly to define "branches in the timeline" vs "branches in reality" vs "nexus events" and all that stuff. It sort of seems that nexus events are just any events that cause branches from what's "supposed to happen" in the timeline. However, I don't know if it's supposed to be implied that time travel and the timelines created from that are also nexus events. Is it supposed to be seen that all time traveling back in time causes branches in time, and therefore every time travel instance is a nexus event? And that there can be nexus events that exist from doing things other than traveling back in time? I suppose that would make sense, but it's weird that nexus events would come in two different forms like that. The Ancient one also discusses "your reality vs. my reality", which I understand could just be a more poetic way of discussing different timelines. But to me it doesn't completely discourage the idea of "different timelines" being notable different from "different realities", though I can't find a meaningful distinction between the two at the moment.
The way I see it, all time travel will create branches. And Loki makes it clear that branches can get created independent of time travel. In fact, most of the times they get created without any time travel. Each of the Loki's we see are from a different branch of reality. If a time travel causes a branch and the events of the branch cause it to stray away from what Kang considers sacred, then that is a Nexus event. Therefore only that new timeline will need to be purged. So in the case of the time travel to 2012, Loki's disappearance with the Tesseract is considered a Nexus event. However, we don't know if Thor and Rockets interference in the 2014 timeline is considered a Nexus event. We don't know if what they did there will alter the flow of time enough to result in an evil Kang. While Endgame didn't mean to differentiate between a Timeline and Reality, Loki's script writers didn't do enough homework. They have hinted that a Parallel Timeline and a Parallel Universe may be different. That one Universe could host parallel Timelines. I find that too tedious. As you rightly put, there isn't any difference that one can call out between Reality, Universe or Timeline. They are merely alternate existences with alternate people, places and things. Hope the Loki folks get their acts right and stop tip-toeing around the definition of timelines, realities and universes. Here are my detailed thoughts on Loki - www.thisisbarry.com/film/loki-timeline-explained-sacred-timeline-and-mcu-timeline/
So they created 5 more time lines where the outcome is still the same, meaning Thanos killing half of population (5 times more) just to safe people in their timeline. I guess not returning the stones back would at least prevent that. If there is one stone missing in each time line Thanos can’t complete his task in each one of them.
Sadly, yes. I think the concept is - return the stones and let that timeline figure their future or not return the stone and have events like Dormammu destroy the Earth become their reality. As we learn from Loki, however, these new timelines may all have been purged. But we don't know for sure.
@@baryflawless Yes. Agree. You could write unique stories for any of those timelines - or disregard them as ‘we’ll never know’. Either would be consistent with the rules of time travel in the film.
But Hulk explains that once you travel back in time your former present (where 2018 Thanos snapped half of everyone away) becomes your past which cannot be changed by your new future (the timeline(s) they create when they go back to the past), but apparently that’s exactly what they do as illustrated here??
The short explanation of Hulk's statement there is that events of a timeline are immutable. So when they plan to go back to the past, everything they will experience is their relative future, but will happen in a past year but that of a different timeline. So, for Thor and Rocket, from the time he time travels, the events of getting the Ether and Hammer are part of their future, but that happens in the year 2014 of another timeline. When they are in 2014 of that timeline, their former present - which was in the year 2023 in the Prime Timeline - becomes their past. Once an event has occurred, they are immutable. Any change to it, will cause a new timeline.
@@baryflawless yeah but they use their new futures from the new timelines to change their former presents, I.E. their new past which he clearly states they can’t do
@@davidkasinskas3822 They use their new futures from the new timelines to change their *Future* in the Prime Timeline. They can spend years in other timelines and be back 10 seconds after they left because the start time and end time is keyed into the machine. So from the perspective of the Prime Timeline, they were gone only for 10 seconds. This what Hulk explains to The Ancient One too about returning the stones to the alternate timelines. Though the stones were gone for a long while, from the perspective of those alternate timelines, they barely left.
@@baryflawless Correct. David is confused over semantics of 'new future' former present. The easiest way to understand it is this. The present is defined as what is happening now. You are always in the present. The future has not happened yet. The past has already happened and cannot be changed. What is fluid - is reality. The different timelines - are different space/times, which are different universes in the multiverse - and which are different realities. So in a single sentence... _If you multiverse time travel to any other reality - it can never change the _*_past_*_ (which already happened) period._
The most practical thing you are supposed to take from this is simply: They cannot travel back in time and prevent the snap. So then what are they doing? They are doing what Banner explained to the ancient one. They are taking stones from alternate realities - since the ones in this reality were atomized - They will use those stones to bring back those that Thanos murdered. Then they will put the stones back - to the *exact moment* they were taken from their respective realities. This means that the stones - never left - those realities. That actually makes sense - not - there is an assumption the Avengers are making which backfires on them - intentionally in terms of the time heists going wrong. {heists always do go wrong - that's what heist movies are about} They assume that the disruption of events in those realities will *not* cause a butterfly effect but rather will re-converge. Any theory that implies that realities can diverge in principal must consider that they can also converge. Of course we know that every time heist is a disaster. The final battle with Thanos is all about what happens if Thanos of another reality finds out, what the Avengers did. *You mess with time - time messes back.* I think Endgame is almost "ahead of its time" in terms of Marvel filmmaking. It was more sophisticated than anything done before - and - oh gosh - the phase 4 films have been a such a cluster that I almost don't bother discussing Endgame anymore - because its completely contradicted by subsequent films and writers who never understood it in the 1st place, or simply don't care.
I completely agree that Steve spent out the rest of his life in another timeline to be with Peggy. One thing I wish people who know this would address though: What happened to the Steve native to that timeline. Is he still frozen?
@@baryflawless wait so what did he do with HYdRa, Ultron, Loki, Sokovia Accords? Did he just spend an entire lifetime on adventures we didn't even know?
@@it6647 Let's not forget that there is a Younger Captain America in that timeline who would be involved in the Avenger's activities in the future. The 2023-Steve probably helped out from the 1940s to the 2010s till Cap from that timeline was taken out of the ice.
@@baryflawless I forgot that the time difference between those 2 dates is 70 years He was really frozen for a long time Kinda makes you wonder how it took them so long to dig him up
There is a machine in the Main (Prime) Timeline. The Spacetime GPS uses that for positioning with respect to which timeline a person travels to. Timelines that were created were because of time travel, not the stones. So returning the stones will not delete these new timelines. The Avengers have no way to delete timelines. All they are trying to ensure is that those timelines are given back the stones so that they are not hurled into chaos (as per what The Ancient One explains). Also here's the paradox with deleting timelines. A timeline is a reality that branched out from another reality. The branch has a copy of the people, places and events. But as time passes, the people, places and events change. E.g. the 2014 timeline starts off similar to the Prime Timeline. But soon Thanos gets to know about the future and he, along with his army travels to the Prime Timeline and gets up getting dusted along with his army. The 2014-Nebula also gets killed by the Prime-Nebula. The 2014 timeline has diverged a lot from the Prime Timeline. Deleting this timeline will undo it all the way from the time of it's birth (the moment the Avengers landed in the past). This will undo taking of the stone, Hulk's unsnap, and the epic battle in 2023 as well. What happened, happened, it can't be changed.
@@baryflawless Correct. The Avengers have no way of deleting timelines. However it was their goal to return the stones to the moment they were taken *as if they never left.* Per Banner….When this is demonstrated via the Ancient One’s magical construct, the branch timeline does dissipate or re-converge. In theory if realities can be created and diverge, then they can also reconverge into a single reality, so this is consistent with Quantum mechanics multiverse time travel Sci Fi. However - in each of the alternate timelines things go wrong that make the Avengers reconverging the timelines impossible. Probably more folks are trying to factor in the information from Loki - at this point. But that’s a story in progress, and even if we grant that the TVA has the ability to reset timelines, that is far beyond anything the Avengers can do. [If this turns out to be like some of the comics - then Kang the Conquerer has technology from the end of time……maybe the Avengers time travel will turn out to be the origin of time travel that leads to Kang? But that’s all speculation and might be moot by next weeks episode 😎 ]
Meanwhile, Loki series just says that there is no new timelines, only the one sacred one, and that also the Avenger’s time traveling (and thus creating these new timelines) was approved by the Time Keepers. Something doesn’t add up. Can’t wait to see how the future of the MCU explores more time travel stuff
Loki has the power to ruin the MCU .. I hope there are really strict producers on that show. If they do break the MCU, it will be Loki's loss as the rest of the films are still aligned to what Endgame delivered in terms of timelines. Praying that Loki doesn't do what Sarah Connor's Chronicles did back in the day. Hope they stick with these rules of creating timelines that are powered by time-travel and not the stones.
Saw the first episode. Here's what they mean by Sacred Timeline - it references to an allowance within which the timelines can have variance. If in one timeline Loki decides to take a snooze and in another he's watching a play of himself, that's fine. It's within the allowance of what is termed as the Sacred Timeline. They also mention that each of the timelines we see in Endgame are within the variation of what is considered Sacred. Loki taking the Tessaract is not considered to be within the variance. I was as annoyed as Loki was - "who decides what's sacred and what's not?". After all it was the Avengers' meddling that lead to Loki getting the Tessaract in the first place. So far, they're still playing by the Endgame rules. We'll know if they continue or ruin it. 🙂
“The series says there is no new timeline, only one sacred timeline” ⬆️ Nope. Go watch the animation in the show again. The series is based on the fact that there are many timelines - which led to a multiverse war. We can discuss further from here but I wonder: How you can watch a show about a multiverse in which there is a rogue Loki running around creating new timelines and Time Cops running around trying to prune them, and conclude that *there is only 1 timeline* 🤔 I mean are you sure you watched the show? 😂
I want to know this (and no one has actually asked ever): Did the Avengers that returned from the dead know they were up against a Thanos from a different timeline??? Or did they think they were still up against the same one that snapped his fingers??? The only one that knew (besides the Avengers who didn't get caught in the snap) he was not the same Thanos was Doctor Strange cause he saw the future in his 14,000,605 outcomes. Someone please answer this. I mean I highly doubt he told them all (Maybe the group that was with him on Titan) that they time traveled.
The likelihood is that many of them simply know that 5 years passed in an instant for them. And that they have to stop Thanos. That's about it. Each of them enter the endgame battlefield straight from where they were dusted. This is what Spider-Man says "You will not believe what's been going on. Do you remember when we were in space? And I got all dusty? I must've passed out, 'cause I woke up, and you were gone. But Doctor Strange was there, right? He was like, "It's been five years. Come on, they need us!" And then he started doing the yellow sparkly thing that he does all the time..". Leave alone Thanos of 2014 vs current timeline, Peter doesn't ever realize he was dead and gone. I'd imagine the same for the rest. It's just that the others might understand the situation better because they are wiser. But unlikely that they'll know about the time heist. Dr. Strange is the only exception, he already knows. He's seen it.
This Is Barry Agreed. Even Iron Man - before he gets the Gauntlet - can’t know from which timeline Thanos is attacking. All he knows is that “they messed with time, and time messed back”. In order for his snap to make sense - he really needs to snap Thanos from all the timelines he knows they created. Likewise - when Thanos threatens to do a control alt delete - he is threatening the entire multiverse, obviously. In fact if you reset the Universe tree (shown in the diagram) from the initial singularity you would have only 1 reality... Thanos reality. So there is a direct unspoken logic in the film: Thanos must reset the entire multiverse. To stop him Iron Man must snap Thanos from existence in the entire multiverse.
@@baryflawless I would like to know why when Scarlet Witch told Thanos "You took everything from me!" and Thanos responded with "I don't even know who you are." and Scarlet Witch said "You will." as if she knew it wasn't present Thanos and instead a different timeline Thanos. If this is the case then this is either a plot hole or something else cause no one told her he was not the same Thanos. Or maybe she thought when he said that he meant he doesn't know her that well cause he only saw her once when he killed Vision. I need to know.
@@luisolaguez4309 in GOTG Drax is full of vengeance for Ronan, who killed his family. Ronan has no memory of who Drax is. Drax still wants to kill Ronan. Similarly, Wanda could simply feel than Thanos killed vision in front of her and doesn't even remember her now. But the truth of the matter is that Wanda is a telepath. She can access memories. Which is why she can possibly know that the Thanos she's going to rip to shreds is not the same dude from 2018.
*How to create a multiverse* Pym particles are subatomic dark matter - they provide the energy basis for creating alternate realities thru time travel. Given a source of dark matter multiverse time travel does not violate the laws of conservation of energy. Remember per the big bang theory our entire universe is created by a singularity. That is, a single particle that is 1 trillionth of 1 million the size of an atom and whose properties are so extreme that the laws of physics as we know them do not even exist - until the explosion that the creates our Universe. (basically *a Pym Particle* ) 😎 Endgame may have the most scientifically literate concept of time travel seen in popular sci fi. I just hope they don't ruin it in the future since their connected Universe lets everyone play with it and potentially make a mess out of it. Even things like the dark dimension can be consistent with sci fi physics - It is the result of a singularity that explodes into a universe where time does not exist. Done correctly, multiverse creates an almost limitless storytelling landscape that respects continuity, and consequence in story telling, and causality and logic in physics. MCU also has a huge advantage over DCU in this respect. Stan Lee rooted his super hero Universe in Sci Fi, where the DC universe was at the time pure fantasy. (SuperMan and WonderWoman were basically just Gods - prior to retcon) DC's Flashpoint Paradox is a fun time travel story - but its sci fi mechanics are a disaster. So far it has only been delt with at a comic book cartoon level because its otherwise completely ridiculous.
I have a question, when Steve made a new timeline with Peggy, he did then go back to his own original timeline, of the mcu. You know this because he doesnt come back from the time machine, but naturally appears on the old bench. This is what makes it confusing because it means that going back doesn't create a new timeline, all of the event is in a single timeline, going back only changes the future of this one and only timeline. Thus creates mores confusion with the death of 2014 Thanos, meaning infinity war nor endgame could arise, so these events are contradictory.
I believe that the machine is only a default location in space to arrive back at. It is not mandatory to arrive at those exact coordinates. The reason why I think this is because Clint is able to go to his house. Steve and Tony are able to go from New York to New Jersey. So looks like it is possible to arrive back at the MCU prime timeline by the bench and not at the machine.
The Loki series looks promising in terms of continuing to explore multiverse time travel. Seems like we are going to get many timelines, many Loki's , messed up timelines, and attempts to repair timelines, with time cops, whose origins may link back to the events in Endgame.
@@unsafe-x6428 The dialogue - "I went forward in time to view alternate futures to see all the possible outcomes of the coming conflict". There are two theories here. 1) There are 140,000,005 timelines that exist which deal with a conflict where a force is trying to obliterate half or the entire universe. The story we are seeing is that of the one timeline which will win it doing what they did in Endgame, the Time Heist. For Eg, that rat never hit the button on that truck in any other timeline and Scott stayed trapped inside the quantum realm forever. Therefore no Time Heist anywhere else. Or Thanos killed Tony too early. What are these timelines? They are parallel timelines that exist because of branching that happened at various points in history for a variety of reasons. Dr Strange witnesses the outcome in each of those timelines. 2) Dr Strange is using the time stone to project the various outcomes by playing each and every possible one and living them in fractions of a second. Living through every outcome, Strange realizes that the one where he parts with the time stone to save Tony is the winning outcome. He also knows that Tony must live now, to die later. Hope that helps.
@@unsafe-x6428 Umm no. Either there are 140,000,605 timelines with the conflict for the infinity stones .. or .. there is *One* way to kill Thanos out of 140,000,605 possibilities.
So wouldn't Steve's trip to return the 'stolen' items, returning them to the exact place and time where they where taken, essentially cancel out that alternative timeline and revert it back to the original?
Hi, it wouldn't. A branch in the timeline was created by time-travel to the past, not taking the stone. Eg: When they go to Morag (2014), the two Nebulas interlock before they get close to the stone. Cap would return the stone soon as it was taken, which is after 2023-Nebula is taken by Thanos. Which also means that Thanos knows of the future and would use the pym particles to travel to 2023 for the final battle and get dusted. That timeline would be left without Thanos and his army. In Endgame, each timeline is created because they went back in time using the Pym particles. Whether or not they take the stone, that timeline will continue to exist. The Steve-Peggy timeline is a good example of one that exists even if its stones were untouched.
@@baryflawless Yeah, that makes sense Barry. And I agree that it is not the taking of the stone that created the new timeline. It's the fact that you interfere with the 'normal' flow of events after time travel that creates the branche. But my point was that if you 'make your impact' (ie take the stone) and then undo it at that same time (ie return the stone), you basically create an alternative timeline that is completely identical to the original timeline. Since nothing really changed. So the result would maybe not be a cancelled out timeline, but two identical timelines? How would you know the difference if you travelled back to either one? Time travel is complex, my head hurts.
@@ivoluijendijk5529 Spot on. The two timelines would be identical and this is the exact conversation Hulk and The Ancient One have. From the perspective of that alternate timeline, the stone never left. Now, when one travels back in time to an alternate timeline, I don't think they are doing it based on the visuals. When they first traveled back, they created the timeline. The device on their wrist knows the coordinates of this timeline. Hulk has programmed into Steve's GPS device the coordinates of each other timelines and the point in time that Steve will be taken to. After that, Cap is on his own to use his wits to slyly replace the missing stone. :)
@@baryflawless : I would just add that conceptually - two identical timelines = 1 timeline. When Banner puts his stone back - in his conversation with the Ancient One - that timeline ceases to exist. However this may be moot because most of the timelines they created seem irreparable. Loki escaped - that can’t be undone. Thanos 2014 is dead. The Pym particles from 1970 were used and are gone. Only the 2013 timeline has not been clearly altered - and I have to wonder if Cap will actually put the aether back in Jane, so that Maleketh, seeking it, will go and kill Thor’s mom. I mean....really? *I think the theoretical idea that they could take the stones without creating alternate timelines - is important to the logic of their original intent.* Lastly - it’s always important to go back to the idea that M&M stated with BackTotheFuture time travel and then realized it made no sense. Now they have time travel that makes sense - but, have the writers really thought thru every possibility? I doubt it. I think they stuck to what was necessary for their story to function, and it’s up to MCU to decide the fate of the alternate timelines.
This is barry, why dont the avengers time travel to the moment just before hulk snaps his fingers...that way they can bring that tony stark to the present day and replace the dead tony stark
Hi David. I think removing anybody or thing (stones, hammer) from an alternate timeline messes around with the future of the alternate timeline. They just want to avoid such a thing.
@@baryflawless Hmm I think theres a plot hole in returning the stones. If Steve return the stones back on there real timeline, how they will replace the space stone on tesseract cube? the mind stone on scepter ? the Aether and the Orb??
Hi This is barry..I see that you are indian from your other uploaded videos...Can you please tell which software you used to convert text to speech of the audio in this video?? Although its a robotic voice its one of the best audio robotic voice in youtube
It was a free to use that a googled for. Can't seem to find it. It's good but misses any voice acting though. Words tend to sound the same, it worked in this particular case. I'll get back here when I find that service's name.
From the actual screenplay, published now online: Only thing bumming me out is now I live in a world without Captain America. Steve pulls up A CASE from beside him, giving it to Sam. OLD STEVE That’s kind of why I’m here. Sam unzips it, revealing...A BRAND NEW SHIELD. SAM WILSON Where did you even get this? OLD STEVE *I had a little time to travel.* _______________________________________________ Corny dialog at the end, so no wonder it was dropped, but very revealing...from Marcus and McFeely.
*Time travel isn’t real* - as far as we know. Actually needs to be repeated so the context of a fun discussion about a fantasy film isn’t lost. Having said this, just found this from physics dot org no less: *Simulating quantum 'time travel' disproves butterfly effect in quantum realm* “Using a quantum computer to simulate time travel, researchers have demonstrated that, in the quantum realm, there is no "butterfly effect." In the research, information-qubits, or quantum bits-'time travel' into the simulated past. One of them is then strongly damaged, like stepping on a butterfly, metaphorically speaking. Surprisingly, when all qubits return to the 'present,' they appear largely unaltered, as if reality is self-healing.” ⬆️ This could be dialogue from Bruce Banner in Endgame. 😂
@@summertyme5748 he didn't come back through the portal, he appeared on the bench as if he'd lived through every single MCU movie in the same timeline. He lived his life in the regular timeline, somehow not creating a new timeline by traveling back to when he froze in the ice, but instead living in the regular timeline until he gets old and meets with Bucky and Sam
@@stevenreyes4791 how about this: Cap didn't use the hulk managed portal because his timespace gps(made by stark) was broken over the years. instead he use new gps/portal made by anyone else from his timeline and appear somewhere else instead of the portal where he originally went through.
@@madpop17 he puts the stones back in the moment they were taken from the original timeline. also basically if the return moment doesn't affect any people or anything. let's say for example the moment in 1970 when they got the Tesseract nothing happens in the original timeline. also since the stone is back at it's place the alternate timeline created by the "pick up" simply disappears and never happens
@@LostinGaming0 so if its possible to simply erase a timeline doesnt that contradict the entire premise of the movie? "Back to the future is bullshit". I juat think you have to use one timetravel logic or another. If the simple act of going back in time creates a timeline, then it should always do that. Otherwise the timeline we are following could be erased by some other timelines avengers
*Time travel stinks* 😎 ⬆️ You hear this from frustrated film goers. But it isn't actually time travel that frustrates them... it's *time.* Time travel just makes you think about the metaphysics of time. And thinking causes 'pain' for some. lol Consider...... Someone wrote: "Tony actually makes an incredibly selfish decision by having the other promise not to use the stones to restore the timeline to five years in the past, i get it." ⬆️ *No you don't get it.* It's not just about his daughter. If you were to restore the timeline to the past *you are wiping from existence every being born for the past 5 years.* You are in fact killing them. Period. Not kind of, maybe or sort of. You are killing them. It's the folks who advocate for this who are *forgetting* everyone born in the universe except for Morgan, Tony's daughter. They are not able to follow the logic of time. Once they start thinking about it, they then make another mistake: They reason that everyone who was born in the last 5 years will be born all over during the reset. But of course the whole point of the reset is not to repeat the snap. So no, the persons born in the post snap environment and whom you just murdered will never exist again. You are creating a new '5 year history' filled with the previous snap victims, including all of their offspring, at the expense of the 100's of billions that you just killed. *It's the logic of time, that is being lost by those who want to reset the past 5 years.* They simply can't follow how time works. In fact this is little more than a variation of what Thanos plans to do by the end of the film *reset* the Universe, start over and achieve balance. Tony of course is right. (but then he's a genius who helped build a time machine) 😂 You don't want to turn back time 5 years, and in doing so commit the second greatest act of genocide in the history of the Universe, right after Thanos.
Oh and even if one were to revert time back to just before Thanos' snap (after killing the unborns), there is no guarantees of beating him. He still has the gauntlet and commands the time stone too. Trying to hit him when he's strongest is not the wisest of moves. Oh on the timeline thing I've also read complaints like, "they can just go to any timeline and get the dead characters". Well, the simple answer is, "that person won't come". Why would another Tony leave behind his timeline to come over to the prime timeline? I'm curious to know what they have in store for GOTG 3. Because they have a lot of potential to mess it up.
Yes. Conceptually it’s important to know that you are asking another person to abandon their reality in order to pretend to be a dead person from a dark future. And what is the real purpose? So you don’t have to accept death? Wanda Vision in a way just delt with this. She altered reality to ‘bring back’ her dead brother and lover. Only to realize that she was hurting other people in the process and that the dead were still dead.
What’s funny is that after writing this about how it is actually evil to reset time and kill everyone born in post reset period in the process: *Sure enough we have an MCU series where the TVA is resetting timelines, and Lady Loki is trying to stop them.* 😂
The flaw is that you can’t jump through timelines; once you create an alternative timeline you are in that timeline, and the only future you can go to is that timeline’s future
Not quite. They have a SpaceTime GPS. And there is a machine in the prime timeline configured against the SpaceTime GPS. They use this pairing to traverse timelines.
@@baryflawless Spacetime gps=movie convenience, otherwise they would run into the problem I pointed out, that’s why Marty and Doc Brown couldn’t simply go to back to the future to stop old Biff, because that would be the future he set up, but hey the End Game was still a good movie
@@quedawgg they took inspiration from Back To The Future, the problem it posed and came up with a fix. That's why they spend time with the machine (a satellite) and GPS because in their initial concept people assumed the Back To The Future time travel rules :)
re:The flaw is that you can’t jump through timelines; once you create an alternative timeline you are in that timeline, ⬆️ Incorrect. The whole basis of multiverse time travel is that you can travel to any timelines present or future. There is no- > you can go from timeline A to B, but can't get back???? I have no idea of where you get that from, but it's not physics. All the time travel in the film is 100% consistent with multiverse time travel theory.
Sometimes the Butterfly Effect is cited as if to somehow refute the filmmakers comments about the film. But the Butterfly effect - or chaos theory - is actually not a theory of time travel, per se. *(With reference to chaos theory) the phenomenon whereby a minute localized change in a complex system can have large effects elsewhere.* Note the reference to a butterfly relates to a butterfly flapping its wings causing a hurricane elsewhere. Nothing about time travel. The reason people associate it with time travel is that there was a time travel movie called “The Butterfly Effect.” The film applied chaos theory in the sense that every tiny change to the past caused vast change to the future. Fine for that film - but the most important thing is - > *that’s not whats happening in EndGame.* Multiverse time travel - is what is happening in EndGame and that *is a theory of time travel.* Butterfly Effect does not solve - and in fact - compounds the root paradox of uni-verse time travel in all its forms: predestination, bootstrap and grandfather. If even the tiniest change in past (cause) has devastating present (effect) then you are always changing the past in some way that cancels out your ability or (reason) for changing the past in the 1st place. So the point is,not only is Butterfly Effect not a time travel theory, and not only is it specifically not a theory in this film, but the film’s events cannot be understood by applying this theory - even as a fan fiction.
For clarity - how the Butterfly Effect compounds time travel paradox: You go back and “get the stones so Thanos doesn’t have them” -Antman -> Therefore Thanos never snaps. -> If there is no snap - then there is no need to go back in time to get the stones to stop him from snapping. -> If you don’t go back in time - then he gets the stones. -> Therefore he does snap. ^ This paradox has *no* resolution other than multiverse.... where going back in time does not change the present, but rather creates a *new future* , or alternate reality, as explained by the Hulk.
Hey. Great video. Simple and highly explanatory. This in fact added into a theory I had been thinking about. Here it goes - Since, time travel opens up a bunch of new timelines/realities, we can reach a conclusion that there are millions of timelines since, time travel in each reality would've subsequently opened up further realities. Even if it wasn't THIS VERY TIME TRAVEL done by the Avengers in the Endgame happening in other realities, I'm pretty sure there must be other time altering done by other beings such as Ancient One/Doctor Strange ("Dormammu, I've come to bargain" ;) ) which have opened up multiple alternate universes. The Ancient one's understanding of all of it in Endgame makes it evident that the keepers of the Time Stone have to deal w these multiverses. Pretty sure more of it will be explored in DS2: Multiverse of Madness. Now, coming back to the theory. Remember Doctor Strange calculating 1 in 14 million chance of them being successful? I think it was Doctors Strange's probability of 1 in 14 million of the various timelines being successful. And, I think when he sacrifices the Time Stone to keep Tony alive, the guy knows this is that 1 in 14th million of timeline. This is goes in line with the fact that the Ancient One was refusing to give Bruce Banner the time stone in Endgame until she hears that Doctor Strange sacrificed the time stone and this convinces her. Now, imagine it this way - Maybe in another timeline, Strange knew they were going to be unsuccessful regardless and doesn't give the stone, buys a little more time to live for half population of the universe maybe to put up resistance until Thanos is finally successful. Tony dies because Strange doesn't make the sacrifice and hence, no one cracks the formula for time travel and hence, no time travel. Or, even if they do, (remember Strange has seen it while making the decision and knows they're gonna fail regardless), Ancient One doesn't give the stone because you don't fuck w the timelines without a solid reason. However, in this case, Strange sacrificing the Time Stone BECOMES THAT SOLID REASON for Ancient One. She gives away the time stone KNOWING that this would HIGHLY benefit another timeline without significantly fucking with others. UTILITARIAN LOGIC = GREATEST GOOD FOR THE GREATEST NUMBER. Probably, the keepers of the time stone use this utilitarian logic across the horizons of timeline!!! Would love to know what you think about it :D
Thanks! I love your thoughts on this. I would imagine Sorcerers (esp the ones with access to the time stone) have this capability to see across these possibilities which are born of a variety of time-travel or just choices made by significant individuals. In some timelines, Scott was possibly stuck in the Quantum Realm for ever. That rat probably never pushed the right set of buttons. So, you're right, Dr. Strange doesn't give up the time stone in any of the other 14 million futures, because he knows it doesn't do good. BUT this one we're witnessing as audiences. Same applies to The Ancient One. She too would not give up the time stone, because Strange didn't give it up. She knows the risk of giving up the time stone for her reality. But does so for the greater good of another timeline and trusts that the stone would be returned to her in mere seconds (and Cap claims to have done this).
"each time travel opens up a bunch of new timelines" ⬆️ If you travel to the past and change it yes. But remember the scene between Banner and the Ancient One. A scene I call "Hulk smash time". What they want to do is take the stones and then put them back in the same timeline they took them from. They can do this by traveling to the present of an alternate timeline. The part that confounds many is that they keep thinking of alternate timelines as being in the past instead of being "a new future" as Banner explained. You can travel to different timelines without creating new ones. In fact if that is not the Avengers goal - then taking the stones back would be impossible.
Actually it's a simpler version. They took inspiration from the film. Who doesn't? While Biff stealing the Almanac makes his own self rich, here he'd only end up making the Biff of an alternate timeline rich. No paradox. :)
But how did they time travel through different timelines?? If they were just reversing their previous steps in order to go back to their original timeline, it's likely possible. So how come Steve can time travel to other timelines as well, when he didn't travel to them in the first place??
If they attempt to go back in time to a point in time on the Original Timeline, then a new timeline is created. However, if they use the GPS to navigate to a point in time to an alternate timeline that has already been created, then no new timeline is created. So in the time heist, the first set of time travels create new timelines but Steve's time travel doesn't create new timelines except from the one in the 40s because that was not part of the heist. The only timeline that is born newly because of Steve's travel is the one that branches in the 1940s. Hope that helps?
In multiverse time travel *the only way you can travel back to the past is by creating a different timeline.* The film says this. The film shows this. The film explains this. The filmmakers explains this. All the confusion stems from someone - like yourself - not wanting to accept this, so you take yourself down a rabbit hole. Listen to what you just said: “if they were just reversing their previous steps in order to go back to their original timeline” ⬅️ ...which the film and the filmmakers have told you and shown you - you *cannot do* - so why are we even discussing this, and then pretending to be confused by it? It has to be because this is something your *want* to be, even though the film frustrates your wishes. 😂
@@summertyme5748 Honestly, I only remember some parts about how the time travel mechanics work in the movie. It's been 8 months since I've watched Endgame.
@@Drakonus_ All the time travel to the past creates alternate timelines. This is what Hulk refers to as 'creating a new future' so that you can't change your 'old' future, by changing an alternate timeline.
Per the Filmmakers - same way he left - but *reverse* the mechanics. The quantum bridge and Pym particle are from the alternate timeline -> *same place as he got the shield*
@@summertyme5748 so you mean Steve used another quantum bridge in the alter timeline, so he didn't have to be shown on the deck in the "movie timeline". Am I getting things correct?
But if “going back” is actually a sort of travelling between timelines, does it work the same when going to the future? Example: can Steve get back exactly to our timeline or the fact that he comes back creates a new timeline? Because if so we are seeing a slightly different timeline.
During the Time Heist, when they go back in time, they attempt to go back in time to their own timeline. An entity going back to its own past is not possible or at least not possible in this film. So when each team goes back in time to their own timeline, they end up creating a new timeline. When they return, they are returning to the future of a different timeline than the one they left from. They leave the alternate timeline and arrive a minute in the future of their original timeline. So from the perspective of their timeline, they traveled to the future by one minute. And it's because of this that a new timeline is not spawned. Had any returning team arrived a minute in the past, then they would end up creating an alternate timeline. So when Steve leaves in the end .. he returns in the future by a minute, and that is why he doesn't end up creating a new timeline on his return path. History will be written immutably that for that 1 minute, the Avengers didn't exist, For that 1 minute, Steve did not exist. Had Steve traveled back to the prime timeline in the year 2050 instead of 2023, then in the prime timeline we would have a world where Steve disappeared in 2023 and came back an old man in 2050. This would be similar to being stuck in Ice, that timeline's history would be without Steve from 2023 and 2050. Hope that helps?
@@baryflawless and how can Steve return gems to new generated timelines without creating new ones? Does he return there 1 minute after gems were stolen?
@@Lvvmen_ Yes, it is very important that Steve must return to those timelines *only* after the stones have left them. Even if he's a second earlier, he will end up creating another timeline and that will cause a big mess. But Hulk, in the end, has done the necessary calculations to ensure that Steve arrives *after* the stone(s) leave the timeline. Now, we can go back to that conversation between Hulk and The Ancient One. From the perspective of that timeline, it's almost as if the stone never left.
But were those other timelines eradicated when the stones were replaced? Captain america would have to show up exactly that moment on order to not cause any alteration. Or were those new realities pruned by the tva? Does the tva end before they were pruned?
Replacing the stones would not have eradicated timeliness as these timeliness were not created because of removal of the stones. They were created because of time travel done using pym particles. We're shown that TVA pruned the 2012 timeline after the stones were returned. So we're going to have to assume that they pruned all the other timelines too after their stones were returned to them.
Agree - that they pruned the 2012 timeline. I wouldn’t assume they pruned any other timeline in the multiverse period. The TVA introduces another dimension on the chessboard of time where you have to remember that the TVA’s events do not - and cannot happen in chronological order with respect to any events we’ve seen in the main timeline of the MCU. I’m saying if Mobius TVA detected the 2012 timeline when Loki escapes - with the tessseract, and they detected Sylvie (Lady Loki) because she wanted to help save Asgard rather than destroy it, then from their perspective the Nexus Events are happening *all the time* - and the TVA is pruning it *all the time.* During the event of Endgame - 1 million years earlier - 20 million years later….. *Time works differently in the TVA* - Mobius. At the end of the Loki show - the timelines are completely run amok. The nexus events we see at the end of the show could just as easily include 2014 - where Thanos and crew are missing, or 1970 - where Howard Stark met full grown Tony from another Universe before he was born. We are assuming that *all the timelines shown in Endgame were pruned* because we saw them form at the same time and associate them with one film. But the TVA does not see it that way. The whole timeline from the beginning till the end of time is visible to them - and their work is never ending, and on top of that - all ultimately turned to ‘dust’ [pun] at the end of the series. I’m saying - anything goes. Any timeline not shown as pruned “could in theory” still exist.
@@summertyme5748 Hi there, long time! Yeah, you're right about the linearity of timeline creation in Endgame. That order is only witnessed by the TVA because they are outside any of these timelines. Looks like Multiverse of Madness has gone into a massive re-shoot. No sure what they are cooking. If you have watched No Way Home, lemme know I wanted to discuss one thing with you 🙂
@@baryflawless I didn’t like No Way Home. Yeah I know, most people did, but I was disappointed by the writing. Many don’t know that No Way Home was supposed to come out *after* Dr. Strange 2. They didn’t need the silly story about SpiderMan not being able to get into MIT as some sort of ‘cause’ for the entire multiverse coming unraveled. I can see how that works as a meta commentary on how kids think. Their high school problems are always the *end of the world as we know it* to them. 😂 But from an adult perspective the whole film became juvenile. What was supposed to happen originally is that the character America Chavez was supposed to open the multiverse because she is running from inter-dimensional demonic forces. In turn they have been unleashed *because* of what Strange did when he went forward in time 14 million + times, to find a way to defeat Thanos. Basically the idea is that he ‘cheated’ time and reality, and likewise the character Wanda is doing the same - while trying to find her lost children. And this sets up the conflict between the Wizard and the Witch - much like Civil War’s conflict between Tony and Steve. Of course Dr. Strange “lost” its director then Sony decided they could *not* wait forever for SpiderMan - so now, in my opinion the story is a mess. How big of a mess will be determined by Dr. Strange. Maybe clever retconning can fix it??? We’ll see.
@@summertyme5748 So my question on No Way Home is this. If they were "fixed" and sent back to the moment they came from - many would just die. Eg Electro would overload, Doc Ock would drown, etc. So all the effort taken by the Spideys to fix them is pointless. In the event that the villains do somehow avert death .. then are we to assume that the villians came from an alternate timeline than the one we know? The past can't be changed, so if we have a good Goblin and Doc Ock, that would need to be an alternate timeline from the movies we have already watched, yes?
Thank you so much. This explains it better than the movie I think, Bruce's speech always confused me. I'm used to the idea that taking somethin from the past = changing the future, here it does that but it splits into an alternate timelines. If they stayed that would've been their future. And Steve going back undoes those timelines from happening (I think).
You're most welcome. The timelines were created because of time travel, not the stones. Taking away a stone puts that timeline into massive risk. That's the Hulk-AncientOne conversation. But Steve would show up 2 minutes after Hulk leaves with the stone and so from the perspective of that timeline .. the stone almost never left. :) The timeline however will continue to stay on. Thanos and his army would be gone from one. Loki would have escaped in another (and there is a series based on this) Wanda Vision will also be based on one of these timelines, but the first two episodes barely revealed anything.. :)
@@baryflawless Right. WandaVision from what my friends told me and from the end of episode 3 I think is her creating her own reality to cope with Visions death and someone (Hydra, Shield, who knows) is studying this.
*Loki Episode 5* Nothing new to say about the time travel elements so I thought i'd rate the 5 episodes on a scale 1 to 10: *Episode 5.* Journey Into Mystery = 8 (Everything good about the series consolidated into 1 episode) *Episode 1.* Glorious Purpose = 8 (sets up the whole weird fun series with smart writing great music good acting) *Episode 2.* The Variant = 7 (incredible climax when she bombs the timelines - ruined by next weeks "jus-foolin" anti climax) *Episode 3.* Lamentis = 4 (Pointless train ride stalls for time - ends with Loki breaking time pad and pulling 'powers' out of his butt) *Episode 4.* Nexus Event = 3 (fake suspense dissolves into plot holes: bad writing for Ren Slayer/child steals her time pad/dumb stuff)
@summertyme, what are your thoughts on the finale of Loki? I didn't expect them to drag this on to another season. I thought they'd do 10 episodes and set the path for the "character" in MCU ..
@@bharatkrishna975 : Wrote in another thread - I loved the last episode. I thought the structure where episode 5 had the action sequences and episode 6 has the ideas is nice. I'm not surprised that it ends on a cliff hanger. I don't expect the multiverse to be 'resolved' on this show or even in Dr. Strange Multiverse of Madness. This will go on past AntMan 3 which is supposed to have Kang in it, and only be resolved in Avengers 5 and beyond. I feel this is so because Secret Wars is the big multiverse battle story and I suspect that this is where Marvel wants to lead to. I think you will see either Fantastic 4 or X-Men or both primarily in other Universes than the 'sacred timeline' Avengers and the these Universes will create the next big conflict. I'm happy with how Loki handled the time travel to this point.
So the more you go back in time, the more timelines you create, and eventually becomes the multiverse. So you can basically create infinite timelines and infinitely grab things from the past and bring them back to your timeline
Dr Strange has already mentioned 14 million futures that he has scanned. Looks like the multiverse is already there for reasons other than the Avengers.
This Is Barry it means you can infinitely grab objects from other timelines and bring them to your own. Not just objects, people too. You could bring 30 iron mans to your timeline or 30 infinity stones
One thing about Dr. Strange he speaks of all the ‘possible’ outcomes. Hard to know what this implies, but I envision he uses the time stone to see his future. Then he dies. Now he resets and sees the future - again, but this time he knows how he died, and so it’s different. And so on and iteratively 14 million + times. Have to be careful about the time stone though - the Infinity Stones are utterly fantastical devices that *command* the Universe. Once you have all 6 of them you can do anything. Rewrite the complete history of the multiverse so that Howard the Duck was always the ruler. Etc.
*Why is is hard to understand how the Avengers travel back to the main timeline?* I’ve always wondered why some are confused about this, as the logic is inherently applied in everything they are doing. To me this question is like - understanding that an airplane can fly, and that it flies from NY to LA…. How then does the plane fly back to NY from LA? Lol. What??? It’s the same logic no matter the direction of course. Let’s apply to the Quantum Realm: Can you travel from our Universe to the Quantum Realm? -> *yes* Can you travel from the Quantum Realm to an alternate timeline? -> *yes* Therefore you can travel back from an alternate timeline to the main timeline.
The hardest time I'm facing is with folks who are now saying (all over again in the Loki threads) that time-travel doesn't necessarily create time-lines. And I'm like, "nooo, not all over again!! 😭😭". I've stopped seeing the Twitter threads now.
@@baryflawless They jumped all over the idea that the TVA protects the timeline so that there's only one. Of course the show really debunks this from the 1st episode if you pay attention. The Miss Minutes animation explained that anything that was done to change the sacred timeline could create a nexus event...... Even being late for work. A Nexus event is an alternate timeline. In the very next episode Mobius explains that they can't simply go back to stop Sylvie before she kills their minute men because they have to enter a timeline in real time. This is just another way of saying that changing the past doesn't change the future. Which in turn is a way of saying that you can't change the past because it already happened.
@@summertyme5748 so true. If not immutable then it goes all the way back to going back and killing Baby Thanks. And that's where the whole conversation started! With the director being changed, wonder that the next season is going to feel like. Hope the writers up their game with their writing. Get more meat in the plot. If they sit around baby sitting their own terminology of timeline, reality and universe, there won't be a plot worth watching.
Nice explanation... But explain the part where Bruce banner hulk said that that if they return back all the stone no other timeline would be created just one ... That means when all the stones where returned the no alternate timeline was created
1st things first: Start with the fact that in the 2012 timeline *loki escapes.* That alternate timeline is the basis of the LOKI TV series on Disney +. So it is a fact - that they have created alternate timelines. That is canon.
2ndly: Context is critical. What Hulk is saying is that if you can overwrite changes that were made to a past timeline - then - in theory - they become identical to the present timeline. If two branch timelines are functionally identical then mathematically they become a single set - a single reality. So in theory divergent timelines can be converged. Note: We do not see any proof in the film that this ever happens - but this *is* theory that Hulk Explains to the Ancient One. In theory... -> Ancient One gives Hulk the Stone. -> He activates his quantum GPS returns to the future, snaps. -> Then he comes back right after he left - and gives the stone back. -> In theory the timelines would coverage -> as if *chronogically,* the stones were never taken. This is why Hulk is saying that it’s possible to reconverage the timelines. This was always the goal - to return the stones to the past where they got them. However there is much that Hulk can’t know.... Now let’s look at why this doesn’t actually work....
The reason many get this confused is that they don’t understand the Hulk original explanation of time and branch timelines. It’s as if they literally are not *connecting* the Hulk’s explanation of time - to the notion of branch timelines at all. So let’s look again at what the Hulk says.... BRUCE BANNER: ...Time doesn't work that way. Changing the past doesn't change the future. BRUCE BANNER: I don't know why everyone believes that, but that isn't true. Think about it: If you travel to the past, that past becomes your future. And your former present becomes the past. Which can't now be changed by your new future... ⬆️ It cannot be overstressed that in this entire explanation *there is not one darned word about stones.* In Banner’s statement *new future* is branch timeline, alternate timeline, alternate reality. *All these terms have the same meaning in this film.* If you understand this - it becomes clear that the cause of branch timelines is *not* taking stones. The cause is attempting to change the past. It is actually very simple - only the act of willfully misunderstanding makes it hard: *You can’t change the past, because it already happened.* Anything you experience in the past happens in an alternate reality. Nothing that happens in the past can have any effect on the future in the main timeline. That’s why they can’t kill baby thanos. That’s why they can’t take the stones to prevent Thanos from getting them in the 1st place. That’s why the Ancient One can’t help Banner’s future (reality) from her present reality based on Banner’s past. *Stones or no stones - she and Banner are native’s of different realities.* In theory if you leave the past and reverse any change you made to it.... then that alternate reality reconverages with the main timeline. However this can’t happen in 2014 - where thanos, nebula and Gamora are missing from the past. It can’t happen in 2012 where Loki is run amok. It can’t happen in 1970 where they stole Pym Particles and used them to return, and so cannot but them back. And it can’t happen in 1948 where Cap goes back in time to live his life with Peggy and so inject a 2nd Steve Rogers into the timeline. (That is the very definition of alternate timeline, no matter how hard anyone tries to B$ around it) Hulk doesn’t comment on any of these events when he’s talking to the Ancient One - because he doesn’t know about them. All Captain America can really hope to do - is return the stones - so that at least each Universe is not permanently broken, without a means of regulating space, time,matter and energy, mind, soul and reality. Let us know if you still have questions.
*So the Avengers lose in 14 million 604 timelines and only win in one, right?* Not quite. But good question. The question is good because it tests understanding of the two most difficult constructs of the film, Quantum Tunnel Multiverse time travel, and Infinity Stones. 1st thing to note is that they are fundamentally different. The Quantum Tunnel obeys the laws of [fantasy] physics. The stones are beyond all of that. They are the essence of all existence and *command physics.* Dr. Strange goes forward into the future - and then resets using the time stone. He is creating pockets in time that reset over and over again. The only timeline that continues to exist is the 1 timeline where the Avengers win. We know this because the filmmakers used the scene between Dr. Strange and Dormammu at the end of his movie as the basis for what Strange does in Infinity War. Dormammu - kills Dr. Strange over and over only to reset. Dr. Strange's perspective is that he did die *over and over again.* From our perspective he simply defeats Dormammu the one time. There is no reality that continues forward where Dormamu killed strange and won - this is part of what gets reset. There is no way to do this by any other means than with complete command of time itself. IE- The time stone. Likewise there are not 14 million realities where Thanos won - from any other perspective than the one who wielded the time stone, Dr. Strange. For everyone else what happens at the end of Endgame - is what happened, period. This is likely impossible to understand unless you understand the time stone, and multiverse time travel, and the differences between them.
It’s helpful to remember what Baron Mordo in Dr. Strange said about the time stone: *Temporal manipulations can create branches in time. Unstable dimensional openings. Spacious paradoxes! Time loops!!! You want to get stuck reliving the same moment over, and over, forever, or never having existed at all?* The Quantum Tunnel is to the time stone as a Space ship is to the space stone. The vehicles manipulate physics to their best advantage. The stones command physics and write and potentially rewrite the rules. The best way to view the limits of the Infinity Stones is that existence is in 6 dimensions physical (power) , mental, spiritual, space , time and reality. But each stone is only 1 dimension. So to have absolute control of any one dimension - you need all 6. *That’s why Thanos needs all 6 stones, and likewise you’d need all 6 to undo his handiwork.*
You don't have to be summoned by the gates. Remember Tony and Steve went from 2012 to 1970? There was no machine to summon them in 1970. The machine is like a satellite through spacetime. They use the GPS to navigate through time. 2023 is just one other location in time, and the bench is a location in space.
1:23:41 *Science vs. Mysticism* - or Hulk Smash Time: THE ANCIENT ONE (2012): I'm sorry, I can't help you, Bruce. If I give up the Time Stone to help your Reality, I'm dooming my own. BRUCE BANNER: With all due respect, I'm not sure the science really supports that. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ This is a debate between science and mysticism from which the film [and filmmakers] derives conclusions. [at a 4th wall breaking level - it's also a debate between the scientists who wrote the MCU's time travel rules, and the screen writers who did not completely understand them - but that's a whole other issue] What it means -> The Ancient One has already implied that there are multiple realities - one for Bruce - whose dark future - from the Ancient One's perspective is an alternate reality. A reality which *for him* has already happened, but from her perspective - may or may not happen. {Bruce is a ghost of Christmas future, to her} From Ancient Ones perspective - if she gives up the time stone - their Universe no longer has a mechanism for regulating time - perhaps not unlike Dormamu's dark dimension which is a Universe without time. At a simplistic level - it means Dr. Strange would not be able to stop Dormamu a few years from now. But this applies logically to all stones: Universe without a control mechanism for time, space, reality, power, mind or soul - is a *broken* universe. *This is why they must return the stones* And no...it is not available for them to say to heck with the other timelines. The whole 3rd act of the film is dedicated to the fallacy of messing with one timeline - without understanding the devastating repercussions you could have on another. Bruce's counterpoint is this: If he can take the stone, and then immediately return it, the result is essentially the same as if he'd never taken it Implicitly the timelines would then reconverge. In Bruce's theory of time - timelines once created are not destined to forever diverge. They can be reconverged. In principal this makes sense. If a reality is a distinct set of current events, then even if the past is altered and a divergent reality was created for the *past* that alteration can be subsquently re altered and made to reconverge to the present. So this is the second reason why Bruce must return the stones. 1) To prevent doomed realities with missing command control mechanisms 2) To attempt to reconverge the timelines into one - fixed reality. And this is what the Ancient One agrees to. *Professor Hulk - SMASH- time*
The Ancient One: I'm sorry, I can't help you, Bruce. If I give up the Time Stone to help your Reality, I'm dooming my own.
This is one line is single solid evidence that taking of the stones is not what creates a new timeline. The Ancient One has not parted with her Time Stone at this moment. She plans not to. But she's already talking about her reality vs Bruce's reality. This means the new timeline has already been born before Bruce gets the Time Stone. Why is this timeline (reality) already created? Simple, the time travel to the past created it.
This Is Barry : Yes. Of course. The only way to understand how this film relates multiverse time travel to the Quantum Realm is that you exit the Quantum Realm in a past based on an alternate reality that is *your new future.*
@@abhishekbharadwaj5092 Thanks. So now that its established that Hulk and The Ancient One are in an alternate timeline, here's what the branched reality means. Consider the new timeline created when Clint first goes back in the test run. He ends up taking a glove. That change is rather small. The missing glove is less likely to cause a diverged future. However, coming back tot he 2012 New York timeline, if Hulk takes away the stone and doesn't return it, that timeline will be plunged into darkness as indicated by the dark line in that scene. Hulk explains that he will ensure the Time Stone will be returned an instant after it was taken. So from the perspective of that reality, it barely left for under a minute. The branched reality that The Ancient One refers to is a diverged dark path. Returning the stone only averts that dark branch, but leaves the timeline as is.
The disagreement between the writers and directors was this. The writers intended that only when a stone is taken, it leads to the birth of a new timeline. If not, then the prime timeline is to be affected because of the change to the past. Meaning, the glove goes missing in the main timeline. And also, Steve spends his life with Peggy in the main timeline. The Directors didn't want to have it this way because far too much care needs to be taken to ensure that the previous films are not messed up because of a massive decision like that. After all there were 20+ films to take care of. Remember in X-Men DOFP, how they erased X1, X2, X3? The directors didn't want to create any inconsistencies between Endgame and the previous movies. The directors instead decided to keep it consistent. Any travel to the past, stone or not, will cause a new timeline. That way everything is neat and clean.
Hope that helps?
I would add that the writers originally wrote the time travel per the rules of Back to the Future - but in their own words - it didn't work. It was a mess precisely because every trip to the past destroys the continuity of another trip to the past. It's just a cluster.
That's when Marvel hired the physicists - and they advised multiverse time travel. That is confirmed by the directors and that's what's in the film.
By the way Mcfeely freely acknolwedges all this. He said in an interview that Cap goes back to an alternate timeline.
It's Marcus the other writer - who got upset about it. 😂 Barry linked to a funny interview where you can hear the two writers briefly argue over it.
@@harishyam- No time travel in Endgame can result in any one going back and changing the prime timeline. Any travel to the past will create a new timeline. Steve lives his life with Peggy in an alternate timeline. Post her death, he returns to the prime MCU timeline, on the bench.
But how is Steve choosing the timeline to go back to? Did they keep tabs on them? Because every other instance they created a new timeline when they went back in time. How would Steve be able to travel back to a particular past if going to the past creates a new timeline? And how are they able to travel to the "main timeline" instead of traveling to a different timelines future? Do the stones remember the timeline they came from so they can get back to it?
YES BEST ENDGAME TIME TRAVEL EXPLANATION!!! other videos spend 15 minutes talking about other movies this video is straight forward and super simple!
Cheers and thanks Jon!
@@baryflawless how did Cap get to the alternate Timelines to return the stones?
@@cinemattic_multiverse Cap had enough Pym Particles with him. The machine was all set up and running. Cap had is GPS which was configured against the machine pointing the location of the timelines missing the stones. The rest is not shown, but he navigates to each of the timelines to return the stones.
@@baryflawless okay thank you, and I thought that alternate timelines were only formed if a stone is taken out of the timeline, so why is cap in an alternate timeline? One more question that has bothering me, how did Thanos know where to find the stones in Infinity War? Like how did he know to go to Wakanada, and how did the Black Order know Vision was in Scotland?
@@cinemattic_multiverse actually, no. Timelines are a result of Pym particles. Traveling back in time to your own past creates a new timeline. Remember Hulk's statement here when they discuss time travel in the base. Removing a stone makes that timeline vulnerable and to maintain balance, it needs to be returned to that timeline.
Think about the 2014 timeline. That has the two Nebulas interfering well before they go near the power stone. Even if they didn't touch the power stone, Thanos would have found out about the future and used Pym particles to get to 2023.
I'm not sure how Thanos found out locations in Infinity War. But he's been on the hunt for them for ages. He once sent Loki to get it, then decided to do it himself. So I'd recon he always knew, once get had his gauntlet ready, he gets his army ready and heads to get them.
As result of all this time travel, Kang the Conqueror is born.
That's a likely possibility. I mean, Kang is the villain who weaponized time and I could see him as the descendant of Tony Stark (instead of Reed like in the comics) from the future.
Axcel Julio Excellent ideas.
I think its hulk or a future hulk like maestro hulk. Why? he's the only known survivor of wearing the gauntlet. We learned that both thanos and Tony were futurists. What they both had in common as Thanos mentioned to Tony "Your not the only one cursed with knowledge". I think that gives the hint that wearing and using all the stones makes the experience influential across ones own time to go after something they want and how to do it. Perhaps even bleeds across multiverses too or where ever the character exits as visions and dreams. We saw both thanos and Tony fighting for some future outcome that haunted them. But we haven't seen what it did to the hulk. We do know he is now smart hulk and maybe that bleed backwards in time to his character and is why he was able to merge with his old angry persona so quickly vs the past since it was so near in time to the event where he would wear it. Plus he mumbles "its mostly gamma...its like I was meant for this".
@@axceljulio5747 I think that's probably better for the mcu continuity if kane is descendant of stark instead of Reed richerds even if we do get the fantastic four in the mcu
Lol on the money guys, now he’s the Antman 3 villain.
There is also the timeline where Clint goes back to his house and takes a glove. That created another timeline. Even a small change like that could lead to a different future.
That is true. That timeline is missing a glove. Also each of these branches would initially head in a path without the stones. And later be clipped to look like the red lines after Steve returns the Stones. I've kept it to the key timelines to avoid crowding.
I guess this explains why we keep losing that "one item," like the sock in the washer or something
@@johnlebay4124 glitch in the Matrix 😜😂
Changing the past doesn’t change the future…
SUPER helpful! Hands down THE BEST video explaining time travel in the MCU.
Wow. Thanks for that Dennis. Do share it with the MCU fans you know :)
So.....going back in time won’t change the future but it only makes new timelines in its place?
Yes, that's what it is in a nutshell.
@@baryflawless so there are 4 more Thanos? In the other 4 timelines besides the main and 2014
@@keretaman yes, that's right. We don't know what happens to those Thanos. But as Dr. Strange said. Of all the futures, one one makes it. The other timelines, Thanos Or someone else dusts the population.
If you remember the Chat between the Ancient one and Banner, she warned him that removing the time stones will create alternate realities (Timelines) Banner then said it would be corrected by returning the stones back to there original place / time. So those timelines no longer exist? The point of replacing them was to have history take its natural course.
@@Scrub.v1 yes, taking the stones out is one of the main divergences of that timeline. Because of taking the Time Stone, Dr. Strange would not be able to protect the earth. This would be a turn to the darkness for that timeline. By replacing the stone at that very instant, the dark path would be averted and the timeline would, are you rightly said, follow the natural course of its own history.
Bob Gale, Screenwriter for the back to the future has an interesting comment:
*One of the things that I'm really proud of is that we were able to explain time travel in a way that even a nine-year-old can understand it. That scene in Avengers: Endgame where they're sitting around and talking about time travel, I understand that when they first previewed the movie, [it] didn't have that scene in it. I was told that in the focus groups, people said, 'Well, wait a minute, in Back to the Future they could do this and they could do that.' And the filmmakers realized, 'Oh damn, we gotta deal with that, because everybody's knowledge of time travel, today, in 2019, comes from those movies. So they had to put that scene where Ant-Man says, 'What do you mean? Back to the Future's bullshit.'*
Nice! And the really cool thing there, which many people missed completely, is that they were not trying to bash up Back To The Future. They were paying homage to the film. It's the film that really set the tone for using time travel in a light and easy manner. Specifically BTTF-2. It was the film that threw in the concept of the sequel happening alongside the prequel. It was unprecedented. Endgame had the same thing, we had scenes set against the backdrop of the previous MCU movies. But the makers figured they had a lesson to learn about the Grandfather Paradox. They decided to avoid that by introducing multiple timelines. This is the central point of difference. They had to be careful in the past, but not care too much. Calling BTTF came across as scorning the film, but it really was not. Every time travel film mentioned in that conversation were all the films the makers loved and learned from. ❤❤❤
Hi @SummerTyme - Did you watch Multiverse Of Madness yet. I did yesterday and was curious what you thought about it.
This is honestly a best/perfect explanation of the Time Travel plot in Endgame.
Thanks man. 😊
Glad it helped! :)
My friends and I are having an argument about how time travel worked in Endgame, and this is perfectly proving my point. Thanks
This is also backed by the directors of the film, so you're good! :)
@@baryflawless but the writers themselves had different opinions on the mechanics of Time Travel in Endgame.
@@RitikMaurya07 The writers wanted to make it so that only removal of a stone causes a new timeline. But the directors disagreed and for perfectly right reasons.
Think about the 2014 timeline. The two nebulas interlock. Thanos already knows the infinity saga and his death. Even if the team didn't touch the Power Stone, the events of the future will be rewritten causing a massive paradox and plot hole in the movie.
So the directors took corrective actions and executed the film with the concept that any time travel causes a new timeline. They avoided the mistake X-Men DOFP did.
Therefore, that missing glove is also in a new timeline. From the Butterfly Effect, we know that even a small event could cause massive cascading effects.
*Loki director Kate Herron interview on what happened at the end of Season 1*
_"So the way I see it in my head is that the TVA exists outside of space and time, but reality and everything as we understood it has completely changed in the last few minutes. With the multiverse branching, how do we know the TVA still exists in that way? We don’t know, and I suppose that’s a big question that will be answered as the show goes on. But in my head, the intention is that Sylvie thinks she’s sending him back to the TVA, but because of the way time and branches are crossing each other outside the window, Loki has unfortunately been sent back somewhere very different. So reality has shifted just by the nature of what He Who Remains said, and the idea is that he’s in this alternate TVA now."_
Looks like Kate has understood what the writers are still trying to grasp. 😂 I have this very bad feeling that the writers are going to come up with - "Oh that version of the TVA was 'replaced' by this one and because of their 'connect', Morbius and B-15 will begin 'recollecting' their alternate past". Don't ask me why, but too many films have gone down this path and messed it all up. Separate, isolated timelines just removes all plot-holes and paradoxes.. but writers for some reason can never stick to it.
However, I really wish I'm proved wrong!
So, since Tony snapped away the Thanos from 2014…there’s technically a timeline where IW basically never happens. Like Thanos and his army just disappear and no one sees them ever again. I know that’s not the main timeline, and it’ll probably never be touched upon again. But it’s cool to think about how there’s a timeline where IW and EG basically never happen.
2014 timeline where there is no Thanos and army. This could mean that Ronan was powerful enough to try and procure all the stones. So there may have been an IW - but with very different outcomes.
An important thing to note here is that the Gamora that we see in Guardians Of The Galaxy 3 is from this 2014 timeline, she doesn't go back and decides to live on in 2023 in the prime timeline. So the Quill in the 2014 timeline never gets to meet her.
Lastly, if you've watched Loki (the Series), TVA purges timelines that are too divergent. So the 2014 timeline may have been terminated too making Gamora the only survivor from that timeline.
@@bharatkrishna975 They touched upon the subject of your first paragraph with the first episode of What If Season 2, but with a slightly different circumstances
*Infinity Stones work in any Universe/timeline or reality.*
The Infinity Stones from the main timeline are atomized by Thanos.
The Avengers create alternate timelines in the multiverse - which post Loki - we call Nexus Events.
Alternate timelines are alternate Universes.
This is why - when Nebula kills Nebula from an alternate Universe she doesn't die. She is not killing herself from the past. She has killed a different person.
This is why - when Thanos travels from an alternate Universe to fight the Avengers - killing him does not alter the past. The snap still happened.
This is why they can't solve the film by killing baby Thanos.
This is why they can't solve the film by going back into the past to get the stones so Thanos doesn't ever get them.
If you understand that the time travel creates alternate timelines, then you understand that at the end of the film, the Avengers have gathered 6 stones from 4 different timelines and used them to bring everyone in the main timeline.
*The stones work in any timeline.*
The idea that they don't comes from comic books, not the MCU.
Comic books are *not* canon to the MCU.
Excellent!
Finally a video that actually makes sense. Thank you for this!
Thanks :), share away please!
The most devastating has to be the alternate 2014 timeline. Thanos , Gamora and Nebula are nolonger there an no Infinity War happens. Also the events of GotG vol.2 are effected by Gamora and Nebulas absence. Its even possible EGO the living planet wins without them involved in helping Quill.
That is true, they can do nothing to rectify that timeline. Though there is no Thanos, Ronan might be the one to collect all the stones. He might even snap most living beings out of existence.
But at least the deaths of the Dwarves in that timeline in 2015 never happened also the Avengers and Odin of that timeline can help Quill with Ego
Wari if they could bring back thanos and gamora, why can’t they just bring back any other dead character?
@@awesomerperson2699 Thanos and Gamora came on their own will, well Thanos at least, and Gamora served him blindly. On their own, Tony or Nat wouldn't leave their own timelines, their own people, and come to another timeline.
This Is Barry the avengers could time travel again and make them do so
Watched tons of videos and this one was the only one that made sense to me. Your explanation is top notch. The color coding on the video helped me visualize it easily too. I was curious at first how Cap in ice and 2023 Cap would overlap. I browsed in the comments and thought the same too in which 2023 Cap will fill in the frozen Cap. Mad props to your explanation so I left a like. Thank you for this! Finally I can get some sleep 🤣
Cheers to that. Thanks and glad you found the explanation useful. Yeah, companies like Looper and ScreenRant caused a lot of confusion by having people make semi-informational videos about the film. But they won the SEO war and appear on top of searches. :)
Never thought there could be an explanation without making messy diagram . Good job dude
Thanks 🙂
“Your math is blowing my mind”
This is a really good explanation of why the Avengers didn't actually win. They created 6 other timelines in which Thanos would still snap (Loki's being the possible exception).
They wouldn’t have won - if Iron Man had not snapped. Of course we don’t know yet *for a fact* what the effects of IronMan’s snap was - implicitly if this is the 1 scenario where the Avengers win - then that means that Thanos has been disabled from attacking the Avengers from across the multiverse. My assumption is that Iron Man snapped him out of existence in the other timelines.
Otherwise he is still out there and could still attack- and Dr. Strange would know this. Also since the stones effect all timelines - which is the basis of how the Avengers were able to gather them, then any Thanos in any timeline can destroy the Universe (or balance as Thanos would have it) in *all* timelines.
I have theory as to how this will play out, but some things we just can’t know until the story continues....
Actually they created 11 new timelines. When Cap goes back he dossnt actually go back to the timelines missing stones because those timelines have continued past that point. He creates a new timeline for each stone and even then that means that each new timeline had a duplicate of one of the stones and the 5 first timeline jumps are missing a stone each (which means that the gauntlet in those timelines cant be used to it's full potential). Timelines mess literally everything up because theres so many loopholes!
Now that Loki has come out, I have some questions.
1. Does free will exist in MCU? In Loki, they said that everything has already been determined by the time-keepers - does this mean that there is no free will and events such as the Avengers defeating Thanos were already determined?
2. What exactly is the sacred timeline? Is it just one singular timeline that the time-keepers have determined to be the "correct" timeline, or is it multiple timelines intertwined that are very similar and produce a result that the time-keepers want, or is it something else?
3. If the sacred timeline is a singular timeline, how are there multiple Loki variants with differing powers and features, wouldn't all the variants be the same Loki who became variants at different points in time?
Great questions:
1) I believe that the Time Keepers only want to ensure there is no free will and that a sacred set of events happen from the beginning to the end of time (assuming time is linear). We don't know yet, but it looks like this show is going to show TVA lose control on their operation and it will lead to multiple timelines/universes. Let's not forget, Endgame has already left us with multiple timelines. The way Endgame has defined its multiple timelines is exactly how one would define multiple universes - similar realities with copies of people, places and events, but altered in minor or major ways. Minor - missing glove. Major - Dead Nebula. No event in the alternate timeline affects the MCU prime timeline. So I really can't see how a timeline behaves differently from a universe. Besides, we already know that timelines already existed at one point an the TVA then "brought things to order". So to your question - yes, free will exists, Time Keepers doesn't like it.
2) Going based on the concept that a timeline and a universe are similar in nature, it appears that there can't be exactly one timeline/universe, but one sacred flow of events that all timelines/universes must abide by. If any event results in a drastically different timeline/universe, that timeline/universe is deleted before it can spiral out of control (control of the TVA). Why do I feel there can't be exactly "one" timeline/universe? - Because we already know of a timeline/universe where Nebula is dead and so is Thanos. We know those events can't be undone. The events to unfold after the disappearance of Thanos and Nebula in 2014 is bound to change the future of that timeline/universe. There is no magic wand or reset charge that can "fix" this. Dead is dead, especially Nebula who didn't die of the Tony's snap. The 2014 timeline has changed so much that it can never be merged back to the Prime Timeline because of dead people. All that TVA can ensure is that the future events in the 2014-timeline are within the definition of "sacred".
3) I think you and I have the same dilemma Jonathan. Loki being born as a woman was not what TVA considered to be a deviation. If so, they would have tried to delete it. We also know from the show that Loki exists in many forms and each one is from one timeline/universe. So the real problem is definition. A timeline is treated very lightly - something that can just be "reset" and aligned back to the one sacred timeline. Where as they are going to introduce multiple-universes which will allow for multiple Lokis. But as we were shown in Endgame, a Timeline is similar (if not the same) as a Universe.
Your thoughts?
Good post as always Barry my thoughts. ⬇️
1.) *Does free will exist in the MCU?*
⬆️ Does free will exist, period?
Start with the fact that this question is not answerable in physics.
If you have access to *Cosmos* (PBS doc) - Episode 9 *Possible Worlds.*
It’s a fun look at how Quantum Physics concept of “entanglement” implied that the possible explanation for two entangled objects communicating instantaneously across infinite space is because everything that would happen to them had already happened.
In other words - it’s like listening to two songs and not being able to explain how they are the same, even if their sounds could never have reached each other.
It makes sense if the sounds are really just recordings, being listened to in two different places.
That’s not the only conclusion of course - others include the idea that there are an infinite number of songs freely recorded - so that it is inevitable that some are identical. IE - multiple realities.
Anyway if you watch Cosmos it makes the discussion fun.
It makes clear *why* we don’t really have the answer to the question of the existence of free will.
Everyone prefers free will though in storytelling and I’m sure that’s where the MCU’s multiverse story will end.
2) The term sacred timeline is singular, but remember even per the TVA - the sacred timeline is created by the time keepers, and is the result of a multiverse war.
They are constantly preserving one timeline - by eliminating others. The reset charges are literally *time bombs.*
3) Let’s say I go back in time to the day before you were conceived.
I create a branch timeline. This time when you are conceived a girl is born instead of a boy.
Let’s repeat this process 10 times, until their are 5 times when your parents have a son, and 5 times a daughter.
The TVA upon examine this timelines would see the connection between different realities in which *you* were born as either a boy or a girl.
The show calls this identification process *temporal aura.*
So they would identify your variants as Gender Fluid.
Loki Laufeyson is also Sylvie Laufeydautir - even if we presume the *sacred* timeline Loki is male - both the Loki’s in this show are variants.
That’s why Sylvie says to Loki: *If anything you are me!*
*Loki episodes 1* and time travel.
In an interview the director and writer talk about staying up at night fretting over the rules of time travel in the MCU.
We’ll have to see how the show ends up, but here are my thoughts two episodes in.
The shows early goal is to moot both magical powers and Infinity Stones. Here’s how…
The TVA is created by the time keepers. It is strongly suggested that one of the time Keepers is Kang.
They frame him right behind Judge Renslayer who is his girlfriend in the comics so if he isn’t Kang then this is an intentional misdirect.
Kang will be featured in Antman Quantum Mania.
Kang is the time travel villain from the future.
He has technology *from the end of time.* (ie - ultimate technology)
The TVA exists in a null/space time dimension created by the time keepers.
Null space/time zone isn’t a story telling coincidence or plot hole - it is a strategy weapon used by the time keepers to further their agenda.
Their agenda is to make sure that the events of the Universe play out *the way they want it.*
They are not “heroes” of the story or objective parties conveying exposition to the audience.
*They are unreliable narrators with a self serving agenda.*
Their existence across multiple cycles of life and death in the Universe is dependent upon what they see as the *sacred* timeline.
Sacred to them - is that preserves their existence.
Not so sacred to Loki - the most likely outcome of the show is that Loki will wreck their plans.
The show isn’t even subtle about it: Miss Minutes says the time keepers are trying to prevent the multiverse from collapsing into madness.
The writers for this show are also *writing Dr. Strange Multiverse of Madness.* duh 😂
Time Keepers are worshipped by the TVA drones (who are really glorified slaves), as Gods. Are the TVA agents also robots? Reject variants??
In the null space time dimension: *Infinity Stones are useless* -> Magic is also useless.
Not just Loki’s magic. Any magic. Dr. Strange. Odin?! All magic.
This is critical as otherwise the TVA would be easily destroyed.
That’s why the Infinity Stones and magic are mooted within the TVA.
We can’t judge yet how well the story is going to handle time travel but thus far they have been respectful of continuity.
Even though one of the writers, Michael Waldron’s, comments are a little bit precious, he sounds a bit like Christopher Marcus, JK Rowling.
Sometimes the writers let success go to their heads and the more they talk the less sense their stories make. That’s a writer for you. 😎
Wow. This is good education. Funny that I've read so much marvel but never encountered the TVA arks.
I didn't know the writers are the same for Loki and Dr. Strange. This is great info because there will be more pressure to keep the MCU timeline definitions up.
I'm happy with the way Loki has started. Cheers to a great show!
And as always .. thank you. 🙂
From Loki episode 1:
“Long ago, there was a vast multiversal war.
Countless unique timelines battled each other for supremacy, nearly resulting in the total destruction of…
…well, everything.
But then, the all-knowing Time-Keepers emerged, bringing peace by reorganizing the multiverse into a single timeline, the Sacred Timeline.”
-> The McU is multiverse of countless unique timelines.
-> It was this way *before* there was a TVA.
-> The TVA is trying to reduce the multiverse into a single timeline.
-> This is no different than a conquerer wanting to combine all nations into a single nation.
-> It is not the case that there actually is *a single timeline* - which was somehow broken and the time keepers are trying to restore it.
-> It is a political construct of the time keepers seeking absolute power over time - and the elimination of free will.
@@summertyme5748 Colonization of timelines!
This is the best explanation of Endgame's Time Travel on RUclips. Only 3 minutes, but it's clear and straight to the point. Also, most people think that old Steve was in MCU all along, but it doesn't match with the Time Travel rules that the movie told us. You can't change the past, you can only create another timeline. And Steve did it, and then returned to the original timeline. Even directors confirmed it, but writers are spreading the theory that Cap was there all along.
Agreed, this is the best explanation on the internet. 21 thousand views and no one has refuted it. I've actually pointed some single-timeline fan fiction-ers to this site to invite them to do so. Mostly they just duck out quietly. Wonder why? :0)
Thanks for the love guys. I'm usually a fan of the writers for most films, but the decision the directors made in this film was the best thing they did for the entire MCU we've watched over the years. I don't find it fair to erase the previous movies from existence just to enable a story for one movie. Like @SummerTyme and I were discussing in an other thread, this is exactly what Days Of Future Past of the X-Men did. It simply wiped out the original events of X1, X2 and X3. Endgame showed us nostalgic moments of the older films through time travel just like Back To The Future 2, but ensured they didn't change our experiences of watching the previous films, those are still intact. The writer's approach would have opened Pandora's box on the MCU universe we've watched and loved.
This Is Barry This is why filmmaking needs to be collaborative. Sometimes you need someone else to check your worst impulses.
Another example that comes to mind is the great David Fincher. (Fight Club, Seven) - he directed Alien 3. He made the decision to kill Newt (the little girl that Ripley saved).
This was meant to take her character down a path of complete despair - the the result of this forever destroys the two previous films - because in fact her efforts are all for nothing.
And Alien 3 offers Ripley no redemption or catharsis that the audience can share in. It’s just an exercise in masochism. But why? Given Fincher’s brilliance? Ego is why. He needed to kill the previous story in order to tell his own.
Same with Marcus and McFeely - by the way - ill repeat that I think they deserve an Oscar nomination for their screenplay - it’s the PR afterwards that has been a disaster. They got possessive over one story point - and would not let it go. They began by writing Back2theFuture time travel which failed, because in fact, it doesn’t make sense. But this also means that their bright idea of having Cap always be married to Peggy the whole time - doesn’t make sense. And it never will.
Just here to thank you. Your website really help a lot. You’ve done a really great job Barry!
Woa, thanks. Good to read this. Glad it helped :)
Stones command physics.
Quantum Tunnel time travel obeys physics.
Analogy: Star Lord's starship moves thru space based on the sci fi physics of space travel involving Jump Points (basically space warp/worm hole)
The space stone: Commands space. It's ultimate expression is Omnipresence - where anything can be anywhere instantaneously.
At the end of the film, Thanos wants to use the stones to do-over the Universe. There are no laws of physics to impede this because the laws would only be whatever he would make them.
The point is, best not to get the time stone caught up in the mechanics of Quantum Tunnel time travel in the film. '
The stones when combined, are basically God mode.
EndGame has a simple and elegant concept of time travel. You can summarize in one sentence.
*You can’t change the past.* The filmmakers communicated this clearly. It’s the writers who fixated on a specific agenda, which is in conflict with this concept. If you follow the writers they lead you down a rabbit hole, where the best you can do is choose to believe something that makes no sense, and makes a complete nonsense of the entire film. That’s your choice. But you can’t pretend that it makes any sense.
Funny that the writers talk about scientists who were brought in to talk about quantum physics where a single particle exists in multiple realities, meaning multiple timelines and then still cycling back to the idea that Cap as an exception went back to his own timeline. Anyways, it is not the writers decision as to what theory to apply. It's the director and the studio's and thankfully they stuck with new timelines every time one traveled back in time. So, phew.
@@baryflawless They just used string theory in writing laziness to have fans fill the holes later. Bethesda 101.
What we do know about time in science as opposed to science fantasy.
*We don’t fully understand time.*
*We consider time to be a mysterious other dimension. The 3 dimensions of space are, height, width and depth combine with the 4th dimension which is time.*
*Together these 4 dimensions are space/time.*
*Everything in the Universe moves thru space/time.*
*Everything has a total velocity thru space time that is exactly THE SAME speed.* (yes that’s correct - read again 😎)
*However the act of moving faster thru space - means you move slower through time. Conversely moving slower thru space means you move faster thru time.*
*The above is why time is relative and speed thru space is absolute.*
*So - as you move faster thru space and slower thru time - the reason you hit a speed limit at the speed of light is because at that speed thru space - time comes to a stop*
*In turn this implies that moving faster than the speed of light - would take you backwards thru time, and so......*
Professor Hulk: *I'm gonna send you back a week, let you walk around for an hour, then bring you back in 10 seconds. Make sense?*
_Send you back a week:_ So if it were January 8th, you will travel back in time to January 1st.
_Let you walk around for an hour:_ You will spend one hour moving around on January 1st.
_Bring you back in 10 seconds:_ If you left on January 8th at 12:00 AM you’d come back January 8th *12:00 AM…ten seconds.*
Actually yes, It does make sense. 😎
One of my favourite conversations. 💖
When Endgame released, the world of Time-Travel movies had already seen enough and more complex films, specifically the big-bad-wolves like Primer and Predestination. Fans of the sub genre were already equipped with the base understanding of a Single-Predestined-Timeline vs the glitchy Re-Written-Timeline vs the Multiple-Concurrent-Timelines. When Endgame hit with time-travel, the regular sub-genre geeks got it quick enough, validated which concept was used and enjoyed the film. But there was a whole other set of MCU fans who weren't following time-travel as a sub-genre that keenly. And without that, Endgame became hard to enjoy. Many of the questions that kept coming up after the film were all of these questions that came up in the early 90s when the time-travel sub-genre started seeing a lot of traction. Many MCU fans had to "catch-up" with the base concepts of time-travel, the paradoxes, the scenarios - all in a rushed manner. I'm guessing it would have been so difficult and mind-numbing.
DOFP helped a little, good cast and story, but that timeline execution (read glitchy Re-Written-Timeline) just WREAKED it for the XCU. Logan was beautifully done keeping in mind the timeline re-write and the subtle changes like "Alkali Transigen". But the pathway for future films got destroyed because of the decision to allow the first couple of movies to be erased. XCU fans lost track because the movies they remembered watching over the years, never happened, which is a terrible thing to do to your own franchise. MCU's decision to not delete their 20+ films, I would like to believe, came from the learnings of DOFP's decision 😊.
So when Clint has his "walk-around" and returned with a glove, that glove belongs to another timeline, even if all that changed was so little, but it was a change nevertheless. Endgame did it's fair share to summarize time-travel from the last 20 years within the run-time they had. This dialogue was well-placed to help viewers understand why Steve returned so old in just 10-20 seconds. 💖
👍
When the movie came out, that is exactly how I understood the time travel in the movie. It seemed really strait forward. Even the part about cap living in a different time line and then coming back to the original one after Peggy dies. I had to explain this to my friends a million times
The problem was the other big online movie sites, they jumped the gun and produced videos stating things that were never intended by the directors. This caused all the confusion in that first two weeks of the movie release (... and till date). After that, it was a complete cluster until the directors had to come and say what they intended.
*“It's not a time loop." "Both Ancient One and Hulk were right. You can't change the future by simply going back to past. But it's possible to create a different alternate future. It's not butterfly effect. Every decision you made in the past could potentially create a new timeline. For example, the old Cap at the end movie, he lived his married life in a different universe from the main one. He had to make another jump back to the main universe at the end to give the shield to Sam."* - Joe and Anthony Russo.
The directors understand their film - and their explanation of it makes sense. If you disagree and insist that there is some sort of loop that can have Captain America go back to his own past, then none of the entire Infinity Saga can make any sense. But then you would have only yourself, not the film to blame.
we don't know what the main universe is any more since the stones were destroyed. You have to be real careful when relying on the russo's. All their trailers were effectively orchestrated to lear you in a false direction vs what they were going for on purpose to prevent spoilers. If that behavior is canon so is maybe what they say is deceptive too. The writers on the contrary say the exact opposite of what they wrote which the russos did follow. Plus for steve to live in a branched timeline he would have to remove a stone first as the ancient one said to make a new one then hope he lives thru it in time to leave it and clip it. Plus figure out how to get the stone out and keep it safely but thats the only way it could be separate. But steve says himself..."after i returned the stones I thought of a life tony said I should get". Now remember steve went back to 1947ish. All stones were in play no stones were removed. Then with no stones removed its a time loop and would explain why there is no real record of Peggy's husband no photos and even Nick Fury didn't know? Why do that. Because he did live a different life than from the main universe. He was neither cpt america nor steve rogers. In His own new reality he would have to be completely......different. Then at the end return to his old identity and life to pass the shield.
"You have to be real careful when relying on the Russo's"
Bah. Sure they try to hide their upcoming film's from the leakers by intentionally misleading. But that's both understandable and in good fun - in the age of the Internet when it is almost impossible to keep films secret and so prevent them from being spoiled.
You are trying to justify *not paying attention to the film* and *not listening to the filmmakers* - not in order to find out what "really" happened (in a fantasy film?), but rather in order to trick yourself into replacing the film with the fan fiction in your own mind.
This is a common tactic of fan fiction by the way.
Heck I even do it too. For example - in my head Canon - the Star Wars story ended after Return of the Jedi, and the last 6 films, never happened. :0)
No one could've explain this better.
Thanks a lot Aldo!
I agree. I find endgame’s time travel pretty simple because instead of “directly changing the past” which could cause potential paradoxes, Endgame uses the concept of alternate timelines and realities, and I gotta say, the Russos truly nailed it with the concept. Plus, changing the past wouldn’t really make sense. For example, in x men days of the future past, they had to directly change the timeline, which felt so confusing. As well made as the movie is, I found X men’s time travel to be so confusing because it just feels like an excuse to reset, therefore breaking the continuity. Endgame doesn’t do that. It keeps the original timeline intact and creates alternate timeline branches, therefore keeping continuity in the original timeline.
So that being said, Endgame’s portrayal of time travel pretty much works because instead of changing the past directly, they use the concept of alternate realities and timelines.
@@noobmaster69426 nice summary and comparison against DOFP. The way DOFP did it, they pretty much erased the events of the first 3 films, which is a terrible thing to do to the previous movies.
what i dont get is once you've created an alternate timeline from going back in time. why is it that when you travel forward, you return to the original timeline? and not the future of the alternate timeline you created.
They use the GPS to navigate to the prime timeline, where the machine awaits their return.
I use the analogy of phone system, where the Quantum Tunnel or time machine is the phone company switch, or service provider.
The phone company switch is the hub where all the calls actually go. It's the part of the system that knows where you are, and connects you to someone else.
The point is - if you talk to someone on your cell phone - you can't see the phone company in the middle - but they are there and without them the phones don't work.
Time travel begins with Quantum Tunnel.
You enter the Quantum Realm.
You signal the Quantum Tunnel to tell it where to forward or transfer your (call) destination.
When the Avengers travel for 2012 further back in time to 1970, the process is still the same.
They still shrink into the Quantum Realm and the GPS is still a cell phone talking to the Quantum Tunnel at Avengers tower - again this is the service provider.
But this time - instead of bringing them back to Service Center - it forwards them on - to their next destination.
Of course it's all SCI_FI silliness but I personally understand more about how time travel works in this *one film* than I do from 60 years of Doctor Who. 😂
Wow this video and your explanations in the comments have made so much sense and has allowed me to win many arguements with friends lol! Great video!
Haha .. thanks Dave, there is a link in the description with a more detailed explanation. It should help you win more arguments with your friends 😄
THANK YOU, this movie was so confusing, I couldn't follow at all lol
You're welcome. Glad you liked the video. Do check out www.thisisbarry.com/ for more explanations to complex films.
But there is one thing that still needs an explanation. When Cap goes back in time to return all the stone and then decided to live his life in the past with peggy so when he comes back, why he didn't landed on the quantum tunnel?
He doesn't have to. He can land anywhere. The platform is just the default location. When Steve and Tony go from New York to New Jersey, there is no quantum on either sides. They can move through spacetime. The chair is one such place in spacetime.
@@baryflawless ok this makes sense. Also one thing that how they got so many pym particles to execute this stone returning time travel?
@@shaharyarshahid1370 Cap and Tony steal 4 vials of pym particles. One round trip takes one vial, or one jump takes half a vial. We know this when Scott goofs up to go back and return, he uses one vial. So Cap and Tony have 4 vials, they each use half to return to 2023. Now Steve is left with 3 vials for this trip to return all the stones. This is 6 trips. I would imagine on his way back, he stopped again in 1970 to grab more pym particles if needed.
@@baryflawless I have never understood the question about the Pym particles at films end.
*The only reason* why they have a shortage of Pym particles - is that Hank Pym is snapped. But at the end of the film he is shown at Tony’s funeral.
Once Hank Pym is back - they would have all the Pym particles they need.
Clearly that was the original plan.
Obviously AntMan and Wasp will continue to get Pym particles from Hank, so what’s the problem? Also at the end of the film Banner has built a new Time Machine. Remember Thanos destroyed the one in the Avengers compound which is *why* they tried to use the one in the van. Then Thanos destroyed the Van. So Banner built a new one. Imaginary conversation with Banner:
*Great Bruce, but now where will you get the Pym particles....?*
Bruce: *Uhm....Hank Pym?* 😎
@@summertyme5748 Baahwahaha. I know. We've have answered the same question so many times, I thought I'd try a different one this time. 😂😂
Thank you so much for by far the best explanation i have seen
Thanks Matt!
Passing the shield to Sam was
A
Ugh moment
He was on his left though.
This is a great explanation, thanks for sharing! Now, something this video doesn't talk about is the erase of the timelines once Captain America returned the Infinity Stones. We may assume that the ones highlighted in red were erased, while the last one in blue remained (considering that is the Russo brothers' point of view, since the writters said that old Steve lived in the main timeline all along).
Thanks a lot Martin.
About the red timelines. Let's consider how they were created - through time travel, powered by Pym Particles. All of those timelines changed before the stones were taken. Some very badly, eg Loki escapes, or Thanos knows about a possible future. None of these timelines can be erased by returning the stone as the stone was taken only after the timeline was created. Returning the stone merely ensures that new timeline doesn't go down a dark path, eg: Dormammu destroys Earth because there is no time-stone hence no Dr. Strange. Removing the dark path is what is referred to in the movie as "clipping the branches".
Agreed. And the story goes out of its way to make sure that the timelines they created can't be easily re-converged. I would say watch the Loki series. It's very existence is based on a Loki from the 2012 timelines having some sort of misadventures. There is a fun theory craft going around that suggests Loki will turn out to be the rat who gets Scott out of the Quantum Tunnel.
Why was he turned into a rat? Maybe to make sure he completes the mission and then returns. [in order to be changed back]
@@baryflawless I guess you're right. Actually, despite all the analysis I've seen and the discussions I've had, I never thought about that fact that certain small but significant events took place before the stones were taken. Thanks, Barry.
@@martinwhosoever you'll love the film Butterfly Effect for how small events can have a cascading effect :)
Cheers.
@@baryflawless I will definitely watch it. Thanks!
But then again as Kyle Reese once said: "Taking out Connor then would make no difference."
Ah yes, they always start with changing the past to change the future. Part 1. Then they realize that A) this makes no sense and B) the story has *no* continuity if you can auto-erase with time travel.
Then…… they retcon and start talking about multiple timelines. Lol. Endgame got it right from the start. Now we will see if they can avoid messing it up.
*Back to the Future vs. Endgame vs. Tenet vs. time travel*
B2TF is arguably the best of the 3 films. However it is a comedy and its time travel concepts are completely ridiculous. That's what makes it funny to begin with. B2TF can no more be understood thru physics than Wile E Coyote vs. Road runner can. B2TF like Road Runner, *makes a joke* out of physics.
Tenet is a film that writes its own rules of time travel. The rules are quite complicated and their whole purpose is to selectively invert causality, while avoiding paradox. In Tenet for specific inverted objects effect can come before cause.
Endgame does *not* create any new rules of time travel. It just follows multiverse theory. In Endgame you cannot travel back to the past, because - cause comes before effect - per physics. Instead the act of traveling to the past creates an alternate reality in the multiverse.
This is *not* impossible in physics and requires only a source of energy so that the laws of Thermodynamics are adhered to.
Pym particles in the MCU are such a source of energy. The Big Bang theory posits that the Universe - the whole Universe - is created from a singularity.
A single [particle] which was many trillions of times *smaller* than an atom. Multiverse theory just says that this happens multiple times, and sense we don't a device like Pym's Quantum Tunnel - we just have no way to prove it. Yet.
*Tenet and Endgame and causality*
Tenet has a Temporal Stile. [the analogy is to a turn style or revolving door].
This reverses entropy. When you go thru the door you move thru time - backwards. When you go thru again, you turn around and begin moving forward from a point in the past. You loop back once, and then go thru.
That's fine except if for example you encounter yourself on the way back and fight to the death, then that means you killed yourself before you went thru the door in the 1st place. Begging the question of how? Since you were never there. *This part is the same grandfather paradox that befuddles all single timeline time travel.*
Endgame has a Quantum Tunnel. [the analogy is to a cell phone carrier switch], with the space time GPS being the smart phone, and the Pym particle being the battery.
Endgame's version of reverse entropy is when time is sent thru Scott. When this happens Scott's entropy is inverted in a completely different dimension [the Quantum Realm] outside of our space and time. His entropy moving in a reverse direction therefore does not conflict with *our* Universe's entropy.
In simple terms: *Scott cannot meet and accidentally kill himself within the Quantum Realm* - such that he never entered the Quantum Realm to begin with. This does not violate causality.
@@summertyme5748 all are best. Bcoz all follows different rules
It makes perfect sense until the part when Hulk explains to the Ancient One that once they defeat Thanos, they'd come back before the stones were taken to return it. So would the new times lines be totally erased?
He doesn't say the timelines would be erased. Hulk says, for that timeline, it will be almost like the stone never left that reality.
@@baryflawlessand Steve said “clip all the branches”
@@noobmaster69426 the branches he's going to clip are the realities without the stones which would be dark outcomes like Dormammu taking over. But with the stone returned the instant after it was taken, that dark branch will be clipped.
@@baryflawless that’s true
What are the time travel rules in the film?
*Answer:* You can’t change the past because it already happened. Instead - you create an alternate timeline.
Then how can they return the stones to the past?
*Answer:* They don’t. Reread the above answer, then answer this question ⬇️
When you travel to an alternate timeline, are you in its past, present, or future?
*Answer:* You are in the *present* of an alternate timeline in the multiverse.
Still don't understand the part where Thor went to his timeline, but during that time... Thor was in Asgard in the basement dealing with Loki and the prisoners. It was only moments before the dark elves attacked. So... That's a timeline paradox there. If Thor summon the hammer, then wouldn't the hammer had flew away from the other Thor in 2014 while he was fighting the dark elves in the basement/cellers? Plz explain!
This event of taking the Hammer happens before the basement fight with the dark elves. At that instant the Hammer was not in use. Let's assume fat Thor took the Hammer at 10:00AM and left with rocket. At 10:01AM Steve would return it (along with the Aether).
So from the perspective of the 2014 timeline, the Hammer was gone only for a minute. The 2014 Thor would summon it to fight off the Dark Evles and never know that this Hammer was wielded by a Captain America in 2021 to beat up Thanos.
Okay I got a question. From the POV of the Ancient One, how long was the time stone gone? Did Steve appear immediately after they disappeared from New York? Or did it take a day or so for him to reappear with it cuz ya know battle with Thanos, Tony’s funeral?
Let's assume The Ancient One gave the stone away in 2012 Feb 25th, at 3 PM. All Steve has to do is time travel back to 2012 Feb 25th, at 3:01PM. From the POV of The Ancient One it has been one minute. However for Steve it's been a couple of days.
@@baryflawless But isn't bruce himself said to Ancient One that in order to ruining the timeline, they need to return the stone RIGHT BEFORE it is taken, so it's never left
@@Dev1559 "Once we're done with the stones, we
can return each one into its own timeline at the moment it was taken". Not before. I say hypothetically 1 min later because you want to avoid running into your past self.
Amazing and simple explanation, thanks! Now I’m ready for Loki.
Thanks. I'm nervously waiting for Loki too. I think it should start streaming on Disney+ anytime now.
@@baryflawless Lol. Don’t worry, your explanation of MCU time travel is even more on point now.
Should drive more traffic to your site too.
@@summertyme5748 Haha yay!
McFeely on the multiverse: *It clearly exists, because Doctor Strange has talked all about it and it’s part of the fabric of that. This may be where I disagree with Marvel and where they’re going. I have no idea where Kevin Feige is going,” McFeely said. “I don’t know what’s happening tomorrow, but I’m a big believer in stakes. If you tell me that I can just go get another Natasha and another Tony and keep rolling, particularly my grandma’s gonna go, ‘Well, why did I watch that?'”*
Many have noted that this comment seems to be contradictory for McFeely since they just created a movie with multiverse time travel, which for example, explains why Gamora is alive at the end of the film, but they seem to disagree with their own movie.
The reality is more subtle and complex.
Marcus and McFeely originally tried to write the story with Universe (not multiverse) time travel - in which you can change the past from the future. This led them to pursue a particular plot point - Get Captain America Back to the 1940’s with Peggy. However, this made a mess of the rest of the story (and the MCU). Once you allow the avengers to change the past, then the entire continuity of the MCU collapses and none of the films make any sense. They needed a concept of time travel that would allow them to revisit the past, and bring back those that Thanos killed, without rendering the entire story, and any story that comes before or will come after pointless. That’s why multiverse time travel was chosen. In short *it’s multiverse time travel that preserves the stakes in the story.* Multiverse time travel literally means - you cannot change the past.
Mcfeely’s real objection to this - is precisely because the same process that preserves stakes - does not allow him and Marcus to retcon the MCU so that there can always be two Captain America’s in the past so that Cap can always have been Peggy’s husband.
*The entire idea of sending Cap back to the main timeline actually destroys the stakes established in Caps original sacrifice where he went down with the plane and lost his life,* only to wake up 70 years later. In truth he is objecting to the very time travel rules that gives the story its stakes. This is why neither he nor Marcus can explain any concept of the film’s time travel rules that would support their retcon. It’s the same as the reason why Back2theFuture was rejected in the 1st place. The result would always be some form of B$, suitable only for the least sophisticated audiences who are still trying to figure out why Peter’s friends are still in high school.
Nicely said. Also, the same thing in the X-Men universe with DOFP erased all the X-Men Movies with the original cast, replacing it with an alternate future. After that, the films Apocalypse, Dark Phoenix and Logan needed to be in the new timeline. While Logan took the effort to establish that this timeline has subtle changes creating a butterfly effect, the other two just left it to us to figure things out. Rewriting the past in a multi part film series erases older movies from their existence and it doesn't feel good because you've been watching them over a decade. I really admire the idea of branched timelines because it keeps the MCU intact.
This Is Barry It is literally the only form of time travel that does not collapse into logical paradoxes. And this is important because if it does - you can’t tell continuing interlocking stories anymore. X-Men is a beautiful and terrible lesson for the MCU in this regard.
@@summertyme5748 very true. Also, in X-Men, one timeline is replaced by the other. It would have been less paradox prone if both timelines continued exist. While in one timeline the sentinels take out the XMen and in the other, Xander does.
*The best Explanation* 👍
Thanks! 🙂
*Time in our dimension vs time in the Quantum Realm*
SCOTT LANG: Yeah, but that's just it. It wasn't. For me, it was five hours.
SCOTT LANG: See, the rules of the Quantum Realm aren't like they are up here. Everything is unpredictable.
-----------------------------------------------------
If we remember that the Quantum Realm is not a place or a time in our dimension, but is instead another dimension, and that the whole point of Hank Pym building the tunnel was to extract (rescue) Janet Van Dyne from that dimension, then we can say that the relationship between space/time between our dimension and the Quantum realm is *created by* the Quantum Tunnel connection.
The fact that it was 5 hours for Scott - is therefore an arbitrary result of the the rat 🐁 lol activating the tunnel. It could have been 75 years for Scott - or in theory - Scott might have come out as a baby (the way he did in Professor Hulks experiment) and with no idea of how or why he was even sent into the Quantum Realm in the 1st place.
Wow. Thank you for this.
Glad it helped!
Wow, this is very helpful
Thanks Jared. Glad you found it helpful. Do share it with your fellow MCU fans. :)
There's something that does not seem to quite align, as Banner explained:
-If time travel works like going to another dimension, time should advance in the original dimension, and old cap couldn't have been back so soon.
-If you actually go back in time, and this creates a new timeline, how do you come back? Sure, if you come back to a moment after you left, things would stay consistent, but what would prevent you to dimension travel back before, creating an inconsistency?
If someone leaves their timeline at say 13 : 00 : 00 and arrives back at 13 : 00 : 01, then as you say there will be no inconsistencies in that timeline. In the movie, the Prime Timeline experiences Steve leave and return after a couple of seconds.
If Steve attempts to return at say 12 : 50 : 00, then he will create a new timeline off the prime MCU timeline. In this timeline, there would be two Steves one who is yet to leave on his mission and one who is old. The Prime Timeline will wait for Steve, but he will never return.
"time should advance in the original dimension"
How?
Definitely - *not.*
What is a Universe? What is space , what is time?
Our Universe is a space/time and the matter and energy within it.
Another Universe is another space/time - it by definition is *not related* to our Universe - if it were, it would be a part of our Universe and not its own.
Here is a question for you to consider as a thought experiment.
The Avengers travel to an alternate Universe where the time is 2012 and place is New York.
Question: in terms of space - how close or far is the New York of that Universe from New York in our Universe?
Answer: It's not applicable. It's another Universe so therefore it has no relative distance in space from anything in our universe. If your answer is 1 mile or 11ty trillion miles it's equally wrong and irrelevant.
This leads to: *What time is it - in another Universe - how fast is time moving in another universe relative to your own?*
Answer: Unknown, and time is *not moving* in another Universe because it's not relative to begin with.
Time is only relative *within* our Universe.
Per the logic of Quantum mechanics - if time exists in another Universe - then it is another reality about which nothing can be said until and unless you somehow interact with it.
*That's just what the Quantum tunnel does!*
Professor Hulk is right - in theory they can take the stones into one reality for one million years - and still return to the precise present of this reality.
The only thing they can't do - is return *before* they left. That is the causality limit.
You can definitely leave one reality in the present - go to another reality for any amount of time - and then return to the earlier reality in the present.
Any suggestion that there is a 'space/time' relationship between two universes is itself a paradox - since that relationship makes them *the same* Universe. Space and time must be independent if they are to be unique timelines.
simple and good explenation
Thank you.
Great explanation. Only thing missing is that when Cap goes back to the other timelines he actually creates 4 new timelines (8 in total) which will have duplicates of one of the infinity stones each whilst the timelines they took the stones from will always be missing one as time doesnt stop once you take the stones away.
Thanks a lot LB
Actually not 8. Going to the past of your "own" timeline cause the new timeline, this is because you cannot alter "your own past".
Going to 2012 of a whole other timeline is not "your past", there will be no rift here, therefore no new timeline. Cap ensures that these new timelines will not down a dark path without the stones. This is what he refers to as "clipping the branches".
And as Hulk explains, from that timeline's perspective, the stone disappeared and reappeared within a few minutes.
@@baryflawless just doesnt make sense to me. That only makes sense if the timeline you first took the stones from ceased to continue until you brought them back. Time travel is the worst thing to happen to MCU because theres so many holes in it.
@@LB_die_Kaapie Think of the the new timeline created heading down a dark path, you can call this a branch. An example is if the time stone were taken, this timeline faces a dark path, one where Dr. Strange cannot protect Earth from Dormammu. By returning the time stone right after it was taken, this dark path is clipped. It never happens.
LB: Multiverse time travel doesn’t have holes in it. And it’s not complicated. Every single person who gets confused about it *makes it hard* because they try to apply the broken logic (paradoxes) of single timeline time travel to it. The thing is - Back to the future time travel is something they can understand - so they try to understand Endgame in that way.
But *time travel* cannot be understood via Back to the Future - a comedy film in which the fact that it doesn’t make any sense is a part of the fun. If you understand the rules of multiverse time travel the film makes 100% sense.
Professor Hulk: “If you travel to the past, that past becomes your future. And your former present becomes the past. Which can't now be changed by your new future...
Now, remember- You have to return the stones to the exact moment you got them. Or you're gonna open up a bunch of nasty alternative realities.”
In multiverse time travel - you can’t change the past. When you travel back in time you create an alternate reality. The notion of alternate realities is a hypothesis from Quantum physics.
*The only way the Avengers can return the stones to any particular timeline is from some point in time greater than or equal to the point they were taken.*
That defines the PRESENT in the alternate timelines. Now - don’t lose track of the logic of multiverse time travel. “the past become your new future”
The Present at the end of the film in the main time line is 2023.
The Present - where Loki escapes with the tesseract is 2012. (That is not the *past* of the main timeline - It is the present of an alternate timeline)
For Cap to take back the stones - without creating nasty alternative realities - he has to travel to that timelines present. IE 2014, 2013, 2012 and 1970 for each time heist timeline respectively.
He can’t travel to those timelines past - ie - *before they took the stones* - because he would simply be in *another alternate timeline.*
He also *can’t fix the issue by traveling to those timelines futures* - as those Universes would now have existed without an Infinity Stone - and with whatever disruption the Avengers caused (such as Loki escaping in 2012) -having now played out to ‘what’ unknown dark consequence.
That is the meaning of Hulk’s explanation of time travel and instructions for Cap at films end.
Easy to understand and straight to the point. I like this kind of video. Anyway, I'm hoping that you could make a video and explain about how time works in Disney+ Loki series. Cheers
Thanks a bunch. I've put together my thoughts here on Season 1 - www.thisisbarry.com/film/loki-timeline-explained-sacred-timeline-and-mcu-timeline/
Warning - the show is doing a bad job with definitions of words like Timeline, Universe and Reality. The writers have given the fans a really hard time because that.
If he would’ve traveled back to the 40s he would have been 110 by 2023
Peggy dies in 2012. So yeah, close to a 100 years .. Super Soldier so he could manage more years of life than a normal person I'd imagine.
@@baryflawless *2016, Peggy dies in Civil War (main timeline).
@@theobuniel9643 that's right, 2016 it is!
Given the events of Loki, I'm trying to figure out how exactly to define "branches in the timeline" vs "branches in reality" vs "nexus events" and all that stuff. It sort of seems that nexus events are just any events that cause branches from what's "supposed to happen" in the timeline. However, I don't know if it's supposed to be implied that time travel and the timelines created from that are also nexus events. Is it supposed to be seen that all time traveling back in time causes branches in time, and therefore every time travel instance is a nexus event? And that there can be nexus events that exist from doing things other than traveling back in time? I suppose that would make sense, but it's weird that nexus events would come in two different forms like that.
The Ancient one also discusses "your reality vs. my reality", which I understand could just be a more poetic way of discussing different timelines. But to me it doesn't completely discourage the idea of "different timelines" being notable different from "different realities", though I can't find a meaningful distinction between the two at the moment.
The way I see it, all time travel will create branches. And Loki makes it clear that branches can get created independent of time travel. In fact, most of the times they get created without any time travel. Each of the Loki's we see are from a different branch of reality. If a time travel causes a branch and the events of the branch cause it to stray away from what Kang considers sacred, then that is a Nexus event. Therefore only that new timeline will need to be purged. So in the case of the time travel to 2012, Loki's disappearance with the Tesseract is considered a Nexus event. However, we don't know if Thor and Rockets interference in the 2014 timeline is considered a Nexus event. We don't know if what they did there will alter the flow of time enough to result in an evil Kang.
While Endgame didn't mean to differentiate between a Timeline and Reality, Loki's script writers didn't do enough homework. They have hinted that a Parallel Timeline and a Parallel Universe may be different. That one Universe could host parallel Timelines. I find that too tedious. As you rightly put, there isn't any difference that one can call out between Reality, Universe or Timeline. They are merely alternate existences with alternate people, places and things. Hope the Loki folks get their acts right and stop tip-toeing around the definition of timelines, realities and universes.
Here are my detailed thoughts on Loki - www.thisisbarry.com/film/loki-timeline-explained-sacred-timeline-and-mcu-timeline/
So they created 5 more time lines where the outcome is still the same, meaning Thanos killing half of population (5 times more) just to safe people in their timeline. I guess not returning the stones back would at least prevent that. If there is one stone missing in each time line Thanos can’t complete his task in each one of them.
Sadly, yes.
I think the concept is - return the stones and let that timeline figure their future or not return the stone and have events like Dormammu destroy the Earth become their reality.
As we learn from Loki, however, these new timelines may all have been purged. But we don't know for sure.
@@baryflawless Yes. Agree. You could write unique stories for any of those timelines - or disregard them as ‘we’ll never know’. Either would be consistent with the rules of time travel in the film.
But Hulk explains that once you travel back in time your former present (where 2018 Thanos snapped half of everyone away) becomes your past which cannot be changed by your new future (the timeline(s) they create when they go back to the past), but apparently that’s exactly what they do as illustrated here??
The short explanation of Hulk's statement there is that events of a timeline are immutable. So when they plan to go back to the past, everything they will experience is their relative future, but will happen in a past year but that of a different timeline. So, for Thor and Rocket, from the time he time travels, the events of getting the Ether and Hammer are part of their future, but that happens in the year 2014 of another timeline. When they are in 2014 of that timeline, their former present - which was in the year 2023 in the Prime Timeline - becomes their past. Once an event has occurred, they are immutable. Any change to it, will cause a new timeline.
@@baryflawless yeah but they use their new futures from the new timelines to change their former presents, I.E. their new past which he clearly states they can’t do
@@davidkasinskas3822 They use their new futures from the new timelines to change their *Future* in the Prime Timeline. They can spend years in other timelines and be back 10 seconds after they left because the start time and end time is keyed into the machine. So from the perspective of the Prime Timeline, they were gone only for 10 seconds. This what Hulk explains to The Ancient One too about returning the stones to the alternate timelines. Though the stones were gone for a long while, from the perspective of those alternate timelines, they barely left.
@@baryflawless Correct. David is confused over semantics of 'new future' former present.
The easiest way to understand it is this.
The present is defined as what is happening now.
You are always in the present.
The future has not happened yet.
The past has already happened and cannot be changed.
What is fluid - is reality.
The different timelines - are different space/times, which are different universes in the multiverse - and which are different realities.
So in a single sentence...
_If you multiverse time travel to any other reality - it can never change the _*_past_*_ (which already happened) period._
The most practical thing you are supposed to take from this is simply:
They cannot travel back in time and prevent the snap.
So then what are they doing? They are doing what Banner explained to the ancient one.
They are taking stones from alternate realities - since the ones in this reality were atomized -
They will use those stones to bring back those that Thanos murdered.
Then they will put the stones back - to the *exact moment* they were taken from their respective realities.
This means that the stones - never left - those realities.
That actually makes sense - not - there is an assumption the Avengers are making which backfires on them - intentionally in terms of the time heists going wrong. {heists always do go wrong - that's what heist movies are about}
They assume that the disruption of events in those realities will *not* cause a butterfly effect but rather will re-converge. Any theory that implies that realities can diverge in principal must consider that they can also converge.
Of course we know that every time heist is a disaster.
The final battle with Thanos is all about what happens if Thanos of another reality finds out, what the Avengers did. *You mess with time - time messes back.*
I think Endgame is almost "ahead of its time" in terms of Marvel filmmaking.
It was more sophisticated than anything done before - and - oh gosh - the phase 4 films have been a such a cluster that I almost don't bother discussing Endgame anymore - because its completely contradicted by subsequent films and writers who never understood it in the 1st place, or simply don't care.
I completely agree that Steve spent out the rest of his life in another timeline to be with Peggy. One thing I wish people who know this would address though: What happened to the Steve native to that timeline. Is he still frozen?
Yes, he would have still been frozen. I'd imagine Cap from 2023 would have filled in for frozen-Steve. He does have a new shield.
@@baryflawless wait so what did he do with HYdRa, Ultron, Loki, Sokovia Accords?
Did he just spend an entire lifetime on adventures we didn't even know?
@@it6647 Let's not forget that there is a Younger Captain America in that timeline who would be involved in the Avenger's activities in the future. The 2023-Steve probably helped out from the 1940s to the 2010s till Cap from that timeline was taken out of the ice.
@@baryflawless I forgot that the time difference between those 2 dates is 70 years
He was really frozen for a long time
Kinda makes you wonder how it took them so long to dig him up
How does anyone find their way back to the main time line? And once the stones are returned wasn't the idea to delete these extra time lines?
There is a machine in the Main (Prime) Timeline. The Spacetime GPS uses that for positioning with respect to which timeline a person travels to.
Timelines that were created were because of time travel, not the stones. So returning the stones will not delete these new timelines. The Avengers have no way to delete timelines. All they are trying to ensure is that those timelines are given back the stones so that they are not hurled into chaos (as per what The Ancient One explains).
Also here's the paradox with deleting timelines. A timeline is a reality that branched out from another reality. The branch has a copy of the people, places and events. But as time passes, the people, places and events change. E.g. the 2014 timeline starts off similar to the Prime Timeline. But soon Thanos gets to know about the future and he, along with his army travels to the Prime Timeline and gets up getting dusted along with his army. The 2014-Nebula also gets killed by the Prime-Nebula. The 2014 timeline has diverged a lot from the Prime Timeline. Deleting this timeline will undo it all the way from the time of it's birth (the moment the Avengers landed in the past). This will undo taking of the stone, Hulk's unsnap, and the epic battle in 2023 as well. What happened, happened, it can't be changed.
@@baryflawless Correct. The Avengers have no way of deleting timelines. However it was their goal to return the stones to the moment they were taken *as if they never left.*
Per Banner….When this is demonstrated via the Ancient One’s magical construct, the branch timeline does dissipate or re-converge.
In theory if realities can be created and diverge, then they can also reconverge into a single reality, so this is consistent with Quantum mechanics multiverse time travel Sci Fi.
However - in each of the alternate timelines things go wrong that make the Avengers reconverging the timelines impossible.
Probably more folks are trying to factor in the information from Loki - at this point. But that’s a story in progress, and even if we grant that the TVA has the ability to reset timelines, that is far beyond anything the Avengers can do.
[If this turns out to be like some of the comics - then Kang the Conquerer has technology from the end of time……maybe the Avengers time travel will turn out to be the origin of time travel that leads to Kang? But that’s all speculation and might be moot by next weeks episode 😎 ]
I wonder how that conversation with red skull went when cap returned the soul stone, and if cap saw Natasha’s corpse 😱
Yeah, that would be an extremely awkward conversation.
Meanwhile, Loki series just says that there is no new timelines, only the one sacred one, and that also the Avenger’s time traveling (and thus creating these new timelines) was approved by the Time Keepers. Something doesn’t add up. Can’t wait to see how the future of the MCU explores more time travel stuff
Loki has the power to ruin the MCU .. I hope there are really strict producers on that show. If they do break the MCU, it will be Loki's loss as the rest of the films are still aligned to what Endgame delivered in terms of timelines. Praying that Loki doesn't do what Sarah Connor's Chronicles did back in the day. Hope they stick with these rules of creating timelines that are powered by time-travel and not the stones.
Saw the first episode. Here's what they mean by Sacred Timeline - it references to an allowance within which the timelines can have variance. If in one timeline Loki decides to take a snooze and in another he's watching a play of himself, that's fine. It's within the allowance of what is termed as the Sacred Timeline. They also mention that each of the timelines we see in Endgame are within the variation of what is considered Sacred. Loki taking the Tessaract is not considered to be within the variance. I was as annoyed as Loki was - "who decides what's sacred and what's not?". After all it was the Avengers' meddling that lead to Loki getting the Tessaract in the first place. So far, they're still playing by the Endgame rules. We'll know if they continue or ruin it. 🙂
RaffNav: somehow you completely misunderstood Loki episode 1.
@@baryflawless : Correct. The time travel logic of Loki is identical to Endgame.
“The series says there is no new timeline, only one sacred timeline”
⬆️ Nope. Go watch the animation in the show again.
The series is based on the fact that there are many timelines - which led to a multiverse war.
We can discuss further from here but I wonder:
How you can watch a show about a multiverse in which there is a rogue Loki running around creating new timelines and Time Cops running around trying to prune them, and conclude that *there is only 1 timeline* 🤔
I mean are you sure you watched the show? 😂
I want to know this (and no one has actually asked ever): Did the Avengers that returned from the dead know they were up against a Thanos from a different timeline??? Or did they think they were still up against the same one that snapped his fingers??? The only one that knew (besides the Avengers who didn't get caught in the snap) he was not the same Thanos was Doctor Strange cause he saw the future in his 14,000,605 outcomes. Someone please answer this. I mean I highly doubt he told them all (Maybe the group that was with him on Titan) that they time traveled.
The likelihood is that many of them simply know that 5 years passed in an instant for them. And that they have to stop Thanos. That's about it. Each of them enter the endgame battlefield straight from where they were dusted. This is what Spider-Man says "You will not believe what's been going on. Do you remember when we were in space? And I got all dusty? I must've passed out, 'cause I woke up, and you were gone. But Doctor Strange was there, right? He was like, "It's been five years. Come on, they need us!" And then he started doing the yellow sparkly thing that he does all the time..".
Leave alone Thanos of 2014 vs current timeline, Peter doesn't ever realize he was dead and gone. I'd imagine the same for the rest. It's just that the others might understand the situation better because they are wiser. But unlikely that they'll know about the time heist. Dr. Strange is the only exception, he already knows. He's seen it.
This Is Barry Agreed. Even Iron Man - before he gets the Gauntlet - can’t know from which timeline Thanos is attacking. All he knows is that “they messed with time, and time messed back”.
In order for his snap to make sense - he really needs to snap Thanos from all the timelines he knows they created. Likewise - when Thanos threatens to do a control alt delete - he is threatening the entire multiverse, obviously. In fact if you reset the Universe tree (shown in the diagram) from the initial singularity you would have only 1 reality... Thanos reality. So there is a direct unspoken logic in the film: Thanos must reset the entire multiverse. To stop him Iron Man must snap Thanos from existence in the entire multiverse.
@@summertyme5748 True but at least Tony knows it's present Thanos, unlike the dead Avengers who think it is him.
@@baryflawless I would like to know why when Scarlet Witch told Thanos "You took everything from me!" and Thanos responded with "I don't even know who you are." and Scarlet Witch said "You will." as if she knew it wasn't present Thanos and instead a different timeline Thanos. If this is the case then this is either a plot hole or something else cause no one told her he was not the same Thanos. Or maybe she thought when he said that he meant he doesn't know her that well cause he only saw her once when he killed Vision. I need to know.
@@luisolaguez4309 in GOTG Drax is full of vengeance for Ronan, who killed his family. Ronan has no memory of who Drax is. Drax still wants to kill Ronan. Similarly, Wanda could simply feel than Thanos killed vision in front of her and doesn't even remember her now. But the truth of the matter is that Wanda is a telepath. She can access memories. Which is why she can possibly know that the Thanos she's going to rip to shreds is not the same dude from 2018.
I knew it. He did come back to the timeline!
:) Yup. The makers later confirmed it for us.
*How to create a multiverse*
Pym particles are subatomic dark matter - they provide the energy basis for creating alternate realities thru time travel. Given a source of dark matter multiverse time travel does not violate the laws of conservation of energy.
Remember per the big bang theory our entire universe is created by a singularity.
That is, a single particle that is 1 trillionth of 1 million the size of an atom and whose properties are so extreme that the laws of physics as we know them do not even exist - until the explosion that the creates our Universe. (basically *a Pym Particle* ) 😎
Endgame may have the most scientifically literate concept of time travel seen in popular sci fi. I just hope they don't ruin it in the future since their connected Universe lets everyone play with it and potentially make a mess out of it.
Even things like the dark dimension can be consistent with sci fi physics - It is the result of a singularity that explodes into a universe where time does not exist.
Done correctly, multiverse creates an almost limitless storytelling landscape that respects continuity, and consequence in story telling, and causality and logic in physics.
MCU also has a huge advantage over DCU in this respect.
Stan Lee rooted his super hero Universe in Sci Fi, where the DC universe was at the time pure fantasy. (SuperMan and WonderWoman were basically just Gods - prior to retcon)
DC's Flashpoint Paradox is a fun time travel story - but its sci fi mechanics are a disaster. So far it has only been delt with at a comic book cartoon level because its otherwise completely ridiculous.
The Pym particle being a singularity is brilliant. Like you said, hope the future films/series doesn't ruin the set up.
I have a question, when Steve made a new timeline with Peggy, he did then go back to his own original timeline, of the mcu. You know this because he doesnt come back from the time machine, but naturally appears on the old bench. This is what makes it confusing because it means that going back doesn't create a new timeline, all of the event is in a single timeline, going back only changes the future of this one and only timeline. Thus creates mores confusion with the death of 2014 Thanos, meaning infinity war nor endgame could arise, so these events are contradictory.
I believe that the machine is only a default location in space to arrive back at. It is not mandatory to arrive at those exact coordinates. The reason why I think this is because Clint is able to go to his house. Steve and Tony are able to go from New York to New Jersey. So looks like it is possible to arrive back at the MCU prime timeline by the bench and not at the machine.
The Loki series looks promising in terms of continuing to explore multiverse time travel.
Seems like we are going to get many timelines, many Loki's , messed up timelines, and attempts to repair timelines, with time cops, whose origins may link back to the events in Endgame.
Hope they don't overboard !
@@baryflawless a question: what does strange mean by winning 1 out of 140,000,005 possibility outcome
@@unsafe-x6428 The dialogue - "I went forward in time to view alternate futures to see all the possible outcomes of the coming conflict". There are two theories here.
1) There are 140,000,005 timelines that exist which deal with a conflict where a force is trying to obliterate half or the entire universe. The story we are seeing is that of the one timeline which will win it doing what they did in Endgame, the Time Heist. For Eg, that rat never hit the button on that truck in any other timeline and Scott stayed trapped inside the quantum realm forever. Therefore no Time Heist anywhere else. Or Thanos killed Tony too early. What are these timelines? They are parallel timelines that exist because of branching that happened at various points in history for a variety of reasons. Dr Strange witnesses the outcome in each of those timelines.
2) Dr Strange is using the time stone to project the various outcomes by playing each and every possible one and living them in fractions of a second. Living through every outcome, Strange realizes that the one where he parts with the time stone to save Tony is the winning outcome. He also knows that Tony must live now, to die later.
Hope that helps.
@@baryflawless so either there is 140,000,605 timeline or ways to kill thanos? thanks it helps very much
@@unsafe-x6428 Umm no. Either there are 140,000,605 timelines with the conflict for the infinity stones .. or .. there is *One* way to kill Thanos out of 140,000,605 possibilities.
So wouldn't Steve's trip to return the 'stolen' items, returning them to the exact place and time where they where taken, essentially cancel out that alternative timeline and revert it back to the original?
Hi, it wouldn't. A branch in the timeline was created by time-travel to the past, not taking the stone. Eg: When they go to Morag (2014), the two Nebulas interlock before they get close to the stone. Cap would return the stone soon as it was taken, which is after 2023-Nebula is taken by Thanos. Which also means that Thanos knows of the future and would use the pym particles to travel to 2023 for the final battle and get dusted. That timeline would be left without Thanos and his army.
In Endgame, each timeline is created because they went back in time using the Pym particles. Whether or not they take the stone, that timeline will continue to exist. The Steve-Peggy timeline is a good example of one that exists even if its stones were untouched.
@@baryflawless Yeah, that makes sense Barry. And I agree that it is not the taking of the stone that created the new timeline. It's the fact that you interfere with the 'normal' flow of events after time travel that creates the branche. But my point was that if you 'make your impact' (ie take the stone) and then undo it at that same time (ie return the stone), you basically create an alternative timeline that is completely identical to the original timeline. Since nothing really changed. So the result would maybe not be a cancelled out timeline, but two identical timelines? How would you know the difference if you travelled back to either one?
Time travel is complex, my head hurts.
@@ivoluijendijk5529 Spot on. The two timelines would be identical and this is the exact conversation Hulk and The Ancient One have. From the perspective of that alternate timeline, the stone never left. Now, when one travels back in time to an alternate timeline, I don't think they are doing it based on the visuals. When they first traveled back, they created the timeline. The device on their wrist knows the coordinates of this timeline. Hulk has programmed into Steve's GPS device the coordinates of each other timelines and the point in time that Steve will be taken to. After that, Cap is on his own to use his wits to slyly replace the missing stone. :)
@@baryflawless : I would just add that conceptually - two identical timelines = 1 timeline.
When Banner puts his stone back - in his conversation with the Ancient One - that timeline ceases to exist.
However this may be moot because most of the timelines they created seem irreparable. Loki escaped - that can’t be undone.
Thanos 2014 is dead.
The Pym particles from 1970 were used and are gone.
Only the 2013 timeline has not been clearly altered - and I have to wonder if Cap will actually put the aether back in Jane, so that Maleketh, seeking it, will go and kill Thor’s mom. I mean....really?
*I think the theoretical idea that they could take the stones without creating alternate timelines - is important to the logic of their original intent.*
Lastly - it’s always important to go back to the idea that M&M stated with BackTotheFuture time travel and then realized it made no sense.
Now they have time travel that makes sense - but, have the writers really thought thru every possibility? I doubt it. I think they stuck to what was necessary for their story to function, and it’s up to MCU to decide the fate of the alternate timelines.
@@summertyme5748 Bang on!
This is barry, why dont the avengers time travel to the moment just before hulk snaps his fingers...that way they can bring that tony stark to the present day and replace the dead tony stark
Hi David. I think removing anybody or thing (stones, hammer) from an alternate timeline messes around with the future of the alternate timeline. They just want to avoid such a thing.
@Tim Henke Cheers! :)
@@baryflawless Hmm I think theres a plot hole in returning the stones. If Steve return the stones back on there real timeline, how they will replace the space stone on tesseract cube? the mind stone on scepter ? the Aether and the Orb??
@@jdxb222 actually, aether is worse. It's not the orb. The aether needs to be returned inside Jane!
love The Avengers Eandgame in 2019 2020 Marvel Studios Logo Movie.
Hi This is barry..I see that you are indian from your other uploaded videos...Can you please tell which software you used to convert text to speech of the audio in this video?? Although its a robotic voice its one of the best audio robotic voice in youtube
It was a free to use that a googled for. Can't seem to find it. It's good but misses any voice acting though. Words tend to sound the same, it worked in this particular case. I'll get back here when I find that service's name.
@@baryflawless ok
This was great. I wonder what someone who hasn’t watched the movie would think of this 😂
Spoiler of the century! :)
From the actual screenplay, published now online:
Only thing bumming me out is now I
live in a world without Captain
America.
Steve pulls up A CASE from beside him, giving it to Sam.
OLD STEVE
That’s kind of why I’m here.
Sam unzips it, revealing...A BRAND NEW SHIELD.
SAM WILSON
Where did you even get this?
OLD STEVE
*I had a little time to travel.*
_______________________________________________
Corny dialog at the end, so no wonder it was dropped, but very revealing...from Marcus and McFeely.
Haha .. corny indeed.. proving once again that he did live in some other timeline :)
If there was a cap with peggy and a cap in ice, then are there two caps back in the original timeline? One regular and one old?
Not in the original timeline, but in an alternate timeline. The one marked in purple, there are two Steves.
@@baryflawless Exactly.
Cap 2023 meets Cap 2012
Nebula 2023 meets Nebula 2014
Steve Rogers 2023 dances with Peggy while Steve Rogers 1945 is on ice.
@@baryflawless Oh ok thanks
@@summertyme5748 thanks
*Time travel isn’t real* - as far as we know. Actually needs to be repeated so the context of a fun discussion about a fantasy film isn’t lost.
Having said this, just found this from physics dot org no less:
*Simulating quantum 'time travel' disproves butterfly effect in quantum realm*
“Using a quantum computer to simulate time travel, researchers have demonstrated that, in the quantum realm, there is no "butterfly effect." In the research, information-qubits, or quantum bits-'time travel' into the simulated past. One of them is then strongly damaged, like stepping on a butterfly, metaphorically speaking. Surprisingly, when all qubits return to the 'present,' they appear largely unaltered, as if reality is self-healing.”
⬆️ This could be dialogue from Bruce Banner in Endgame. 😂
The best and simplest explanation..
Thank you.
The Cap timeline is still so confusing
Why?
@@summertyme5748 he didn't come back through the portal, he appeared on the bench as if he'd lived through every single MCU movie in the same timeline. He lived his life in the regular timeline, somehow not creating a new timeline by traveling back to when he froze in the ice, but instead living in the regular timeline until he gets old and meets with Bucky and Sam
@@stevenreyes4791 how about this: Cap didn't use the hulk managed portal because his timespace gps(made by stark) was broken over the years. instead he use new gps/portal made by anyone else from his timeline and appear somewhere else instead of the portal where he originally went through.
Thanks for being brief and concise. I understand it all now.
Cheers! .🙂
I still dont understand how steve rodgers going back doesnt create new time lines...
It does. He said it does. It makes a new timeline where he and peggy get together.
@@commanderstarstrider7176 I mean when he goes to put the stones back...
@@madpop17 he puts the stones back in the moment they were taken from the original timeline. also basically if the return moment doesn't affect any people or anything. let's say for example the moment in 1970 when they got the Tesseract nothing happens in the original timeline. also since the stone is back at it's place the alternate timeline created by the "pick up" simply disappears and never happens
@@LostinGaming0 so if its possible to simply erase a timeline doesnt that contradict the entire premise of the movie? "Back to the future is bullshit". I juat think you have to use one timetravel logic or another. If the simple act of going back in time creates a timeline, then it should always do that. Otherwise the timeline we are following could be erased by some other timelines avengers
Adding to this.. marrying Peggy... Won't that collapse Peggy's normal timeline?
where did the old cap get the shield that he gave to sam?
From the other timeline he lived in.
*Time travel stinks* 😎
⬆️ You hear this from frustrated film goers. But it isn't actually time travel that frustrates them... it's *time.*
Time travel just makes you think about the metaphysics of time. And thinking causes 'pain' for some. lol
Consider......
Someone wrote: "Tony actually makes an incredibly selfish decision by having the other promise not to use the stones to restore the timeline to five years in the past, i get it."
⬆️ *No you don't get it.*
It's not just about his daughter.
If you were to restore the timeline to the past *you are wiping from existence every being born for the past 5 years.*
You are in fact killing them. Period. Not kind of, maybe or sort of. You are killing them.
It's the folks who advocate for this who are *forgetting* everyone born in the universe except for Morgan, Tony's daughter.
They are not able to follow the logic of time. Once they start thinking about it, they then make another mistake:
They reason that everyone who was born in the last 5 years will be born all over during the reset.
But of course the whole point of the reset is not to repeat the snap. So no, the persons born in the post snap environment and whom you just murdered will never exist again.
You are creating a new '5 year history' filled with the previous snap victims, including all of their offspring, at the expense of the 100's of billions that you just killed. *It's the logic of time, that is being lost by those who want to reset the past 5 years.*
They simply can't follow how time works.
In fact this is little more than a variation of what Thanos plans to do by the end of the film *reset* the Universe, start over and achieve balance.
Tony of course is right. (but then he's a genius who helped build a time machine) 😂
You don't want to turn back time 5 years, and in doing so commit the second greatest act of genocide in the history of the Universe, right after Thanos.
Oh and even if one were to revert time back to just before Thanos' snap (after killing the unborns), there is no guarantees of beating him. He still has the gauntlet and commands the time stone too. Trying to hit him when he's strongest is not the wisest of moves.
Oh on the timeline thing I've also read complaints like, "they can just go to any timeline and get the dead characters". Well, the simple answer is, "that person won't come". Why would another Tony leave behind his timeline to come over to the prime timeline?
I'm curious to know what they have in store for GOTG 3. Because they have a lot of potential to mess it up.
Yes. Conceptually it’s important to know that you are asking another person to abandon their reality in order to pretend to be a dead person from a dark future.
And what is the real purpose? So you don’t have to accept death? Wanda Vision in a way just delt with this. She altered reality to ‘bring back’ her dead brother and lover.
Only to realize that she was hurting other people in the process and that the dead were still dead.
What’s funny is that after writing this about how it is actually evil to reset time and kill everyone born in post reset period in the process:
*Sure enough we have an MCU series where the TVA is resetting timelines, and Lady Loki is trying to stop them.*
😂
The flaw is that you can’t jump through timelines; once you create an alternative timeline you are in that timeline, and the only future you can go to is that timeline’s future
Not quite. They have a SpaceTime GPS. And there is a machine in the prime timeline configured against the SpaceTime GPS. They use this pairing to traverse timelines.
@@baryflawless Spacetime gps=movie convenience, otherwise they would run into the problem I pointed out, that’s why Marty and Doc Brown couldn’t simply go to back to the future to stop old Biff, because that would be the future he set up, but hey the End Game was still a good movie
@@quedawgg they took inspiration from Back To The Future, the problem it posed and came up with a fix. That's why they spend time with the machine (a satellite) and GPS because in their initial concept people assumed the Back To The Future time travel rules :)
re:The flaw is that you can’t jump through timelines; once you create an alternative timeline you are in that timeline,
⬆️ Incorrect. The whole basis of multiverse time travel is that you can travel to any timelines present or future. There is no- > you can go from timeline A to B, but can't get back???? I have no idea of where you get that from, but it's not physics.
All the time travel in the film is 100% consistent with multiverse time travel theory.
@@summertyme5748 which universe you live in? Lol
Sometimes the Butterfly Effect is cited as if to somehow refute the filmmakers comments about the film. But the Butterfly effect - or chaos theory - is actually not a theory of time travel, per se.
*(With reference to chaos theory) the phenomenon whereby a minute localized change in a complex system can have large effects elsewhere.*
Note the reference to a butterfly relates to a butterfly flapping its wings causing a hurricane elsewhere. Nothing about time travel. The reason people associate it with time travel is that there was a time travel movie called “The Butterfly Effect.”
The film applied chaos theory in the sense that every tiny change to the past caused vast change to the future.
Fine for that film - but the most important thing is - > *that’s not whats happening in EndGame.*
Multiverse time travel - is what is happening in EndGame and that *is a theory of time travel.*
Butterfly Effect does not solve - and in fact - compounds the root paradox of uni-verse time travel in all its forms: predestination, bootstrap and grandfather.
If even the tiniest change in past (cause) has devastating present (effect) then you are always changing the past in some way that cancels out your ability or (reason) for changing the past in the 1st place.
So the point is,not only is Butterfly Effect not a time travel theory, and not only is it specifically not a theory in this film, but the film’s events cannot be understood by applying this theory - even as a fan fiction.
For clarity - how the Butterfly Effect compounds time travel paradox:
You go back and “get the stones so Thanos doesn’t have them” -Antman
-> Therefore Thanos never snaps.
-> If there is no snap - then there is no need to go back in time to get the stones to stop him from snapping.
-> If you don’t go back in time - then he gets the stones.
-> Therefore he does snap.
^ This paradox has *no* resolution other than multiverse.... where going back in time does not change the present, but rather creates a *new future* , or alternate reality, as explained by the Hulk.
Finally someone gets time travel
Hey. Great video. Simple and highly explanatory. This in fact added into a theory I had been thinking about.
Here it goes - Since, time travel opens up a bunch of new timelines/realities, we can reach a conclusion that there are millions of timelines since, time travel in each reality would've subsequently opened up further realities. Even if it wasn't THIS VERY TIME TRAVEL done by the Avengers in the Endgame happening in other realities, I'm pretty sure there must be other time altering done by other beings such as Ancient One/Doctor Strange ("Dormammu, I've come to bargain" ;) ) which have opened up multiple alternate universes. The Ancient one's understanding of all of it in Endgame makes it evident that the keepers of the Time Stone have to deal w these multiverses. Pretty sure more of it will be explored in DS2: Multiverse of Madness.
Now, coming back to the theory. Remember Doctor Strange calculating 1 in 14 million chance of them being successful? I think it was Doctors Strange's probability of 1 in 14 million of the various timelines being successful. And, I think when he sacrifices the Time Stone to keep Tony alive, the guy knows this is that 1 in 14th million of timeline. This is goes in line with the fact that the Ancient One was refusing to give Bruce Banner the time stone in Endgame until she hears that Doctor Strange sacrificed the time stone and this convinces her.
Now, imagine it this way - Maybe in another timeline, Strange knew they were going to be unsuccessful regardless and doesn't give the stone, buys a little more time to live for half population of the universe maybe to put up resistance until Thanos is finally successful. Tony dies because Strange doesn't make the sacrifice and hence, no one cracks the formula for time travel and hence, no time travel. Or, even if they do, (remember Strange has seen it while making the decision and knows they're gonna fail regardless), Ancient One doesn't give the stone because you don't fuck w the timelines without a solid reason.
However, in this case, Strange sacrificing the Time Stone BECOMES THAT SOLID REASON for Ancient One. She gives away the time stone KNOWING that this would HIGHLY benefit another timeline without significantly fucking with others. UTILITARIAN LOGIC = GREATEST GOOD FOR THE GREATEST NUMBER. Probably, the keepers of the time stone use this utilitarian logic across the horizons of timeline!!!
Would love to know what you think about it :D
Thanks!
I love your thoughts on this.
I would imagine Sorcerers (esp the ones with access to the time stone) have this capability to see across these possibilities which are born of a variety of time-travel or just choices made by significant individuals. In some timelines, Scott was possibly stuck in the Quantum Realm for ever. That rat probably never pushed the right set of buttons.
So, you're right, Dr. Strange doesn't give up the time stone in any of the other 14 million futures, because he knows it doesn't do good. BUT this one we're witnessing as audiences.
Same applies to The Ancient One. She too would not give up the time stone, because Strange didn't give it up. She knows the risk of giving up the time stone for her reality. But does so for the greater good of another timeline and trusts that the stone would be returned to her in mere seconds (and Cap claims to have done this).
"each time travel opens up a bunch of new timelines"
⬆️ If you travel to the past and change it yes. But remember the scene between Banner and the Ancient One.
A scene I call "Hulk smash time". What they want to do is take the stones and then put them back in the same timeline they took them from. They can do this by traveling to the present of an alternate timeline.
The part that confounds many is that they keep thinking of alternate timelines as being in the past instead of being "a new future" as Banner explained. You can travel to different timelines without creating new ones. In fact if that is not the Avengers goal - then taking the stones back would be impossible.
this is like a complicated back to the future explanation
Actually it's a simpler version. They took inspiration from the film. Who doesn't? While Biff stealing the Almanac makes his own self rich, here he'd only end up making the Biff of an alternate timeline rich. No paradox. :)
Good analogy. Endgame -> changing the past doesn't change the future. B2TF-> Changing the past changes the future.
But how did they time travel through different timelines?? If they were just reversing their previous steps in order to go back to their original timeline, it's likely possible. So how come Steve can time travel to other timelines as well, when he didn't travel to them in the first place??
If they attempt to go back in time to a point in time on the Original Timeline, then a new timeline is created. However, if they use the GPS to navigate to a point in time to an alternate timeline that has already been created, then no new timeline is created. So in the time heist, the first set of time travels create new timelines but Steve's time travel doesn't create new timelines except from the one in the 40s because that was not part of the heist. The only timeline that is born newly because of Steve's travel is the one that branches in the 1940s.
Hope that helps?
In multiverse time travel *the only way you can travel back to the past is by creating a different timeline.* The film says this. The film shows this. The film explains this. The filmmakers explains this.
All the confusion stems from someone - like yourself - not wanting to accept this, so you take yourself down a rabbit hole.
Listen to what you just said: “if they were just reversing their previous steps in order to go back to their original timeline” ⬅️ ...which the film and the filmmakers have told you and shown you - you *cannot do* - so why are we even discussing this, and then pretending to be confused by it? It has to be because this is something your *want* to be, even though the film frustrates your wishes. 😂
@@summertyme5748 Honestly, I only remember some parts about how the time travel mechanics work in the movie. It's been 8 months since I've watched Endgame.
@@Drakonus_ All the time travel to the past creates alternate timelines.
This is what Hulk refers to as 'creating a new future' so that you can't change your 'old' future, by changing an alternate timeline.
So when the old Steve got back, why he is not showing on the transport deck? I thought that is the rule of using the time gps thing.
Per the Filmmakers - same way he left - but *reverse* the mechanics. The quantum bridge and Pym particle are from the alternate timeline -> *same place as he got the shield*
@@summertyme5748 so you mean Steve used another quantum bridge in the alter timeline, so he didn't have to be shown on the deck in the "movie timeline". Am I getting things correct?
Akira Lee correct.
@Summer Tyme - thank you in general for the many comments and clarifications you have been giving on the video!
So did they find a way to return steve to the alternate timelines? Because otherwise the stones would have still been there right?
EverythingSport HQ : Yes Steve returns the stones to their respective timelines.
But if “going back” is actually a sort of travelling between timelines, does it work the same when going to the future? Example: can Steve get back exactly to our timeline or the fact that he comes back creates a new timeline? Because if so we are seeing a slightly different timeline.
During the Time Heist, when they go back in time, they attempt to go back in time to their own timeline. An entity going back to its own past is not possible or at least not possible in this film. So when each team goes back in time to their own timeline, they end up creating a new timeline.
When they return, they are returning to the future of a different timeline than the one they left from. They leave the alternate timeline and arrive a minute in the future of their original timeline. So from the perspective of their timeline, they traveled to the future by one minute. And it's because of this that a new timeline is not spawned.
Had any returning team arrived a minute in the past, then they would end up creating an alternate timeline. So when Steve leaves in the end .. he returns in the future by a minute, and that is why he doesn't end up creating a new timeline on his return path.
History will be written immutably that for that 1 minute, the Avengers didn't exist, For that 1 minute, Steve did not exist. Had Steve traveled back to the prime timeline in the year 2050 instead of 2023, then in the prime timeline we would have a world where Steve disappeared in 2023 and came back an old man in 2050. This would be similar to being stuck in Ice, that timeline's history would be without Steve from 2023 and 2050.
Hope that helps?
@@baryflawless and how can Steve return gems to new generated timelines without creating new ones? Does he return there 1 minute after gems were stolen?
@@Lvvmen_ Yes, it is very important that Steve must return to those timelines *only* after the stones have left them. Even if he's a second earlier, he will end up creating another timeline and that will cause a big mess. But Hulk, in the end, has done the necessary calculations to ensure that Steve arrives *after* the stone(s) leave the timeline.
Now, we can go back to that conversation between Hulk and The Ancient One. From the perspective of that timeline, it's almost as if the stone never left.
@@thisisbarry but those timelines in which Steve return still exist right?
@@Lvvmen_ yes they continue to exist. The show Loki is based on the 2012 timeline.
But were those other timelines eradicated when the stones were replaced? Captain america would have to show up exactly that moment on order to not cause any alteration. Or were those new realities pruned by the tva? Does the tva end before they were pruned?
Replacing the stones would not have eradicated timeliness as these timeliness were not created because of removal of the stones. They were created because of time travel done using pym particles.
We're shown that TVA pruned the 2012 timeline after the stones were returned. So we're going to have to assume that they pruned all the other timelines too after their stones were returned to them.
Agree - that they pruned the 2012 timeline. I wouldn’t assume they pruned any other timeline in the multiverse period.
The TVA introduces another dimension on the chessboard of time where you have to remember that the TVA’s events do not - and cannot happen in chronological order with respect to any events we’ve seen in the main timeline of the MCU.
I’m saying if Mobius TVA detected the 2012 timeline when Loki escapes - with the tessseract, and they detected Sylvie (Lady Loki) because she wanted to help save Asgard rather than destroy it, then from their perspective the Nexus Events are happening *all the time* - and the TVA is pruning it *all the time.* During the event of Endgame - 1 million years earlier - 20 million years later…..
*Time works differently in the TVA* - Mobius.
At the end of the Loki show - the timelines are completely run amok.
The nexus events we see at the end of the show could just as easily include 2014 - where Thanos and crew are missing, or 1970 - where Howard Stark met full grown Tony from another Universe before he was born.
We are assuming that *all the timelines shown in Endgame were pruned* because we saw them form at the same time and associate them with one film.
But the TVA does not see it that way. The whole timeline from the beginning till the end of time is visible to them - and their work is never ending, and on top of that - all ultimately turned to ‘dust’ [pun] at the end of the series.
I’m saying - anything goes. Any timeline not shown as pruned “could in theory” still exist.
@@summertyme5748 Hi there, long time!
Yeah, you're right about the linearity of timeline creation in Endgame. That order is only witnessed by the TVA because they are outside any of these timelines.
Looks like Multiverse of Madness has gone into a massive re-shoot. No sure what they are cooking.
If you have watched No Way Home, lemme know I wanted to discuss one thing with you 🙂
@@baryflawless I didn’t like No Way Home. Yeah I know, most people did, but I was disappointed by the writing. Many don’t know that No Way Home was supposed to come out *after* Dr. Strange 2.
They didn’t need the silly story about SpiderMan not being able to get into MIT as some sort of ‘cause’ for the entire multiverse coming unraveled. I can see how that works as a meta commentary on how kids think. Their high school problems are always the *end of the world as we know it* to them. 😂 But from an adult perspective the whole film became juvenile. What was supposed to happen originally is that the character America Chavez was supposed to open the multiverse because she is running from inter-dimensional demonic forces. In turn they have been unleashed *because* of what Strange did when he went forward in time 14 million + times, to find a way to defeat Thanos. Basically the idea is that he ‘cheated’ time and reality, and likewise the character Wanda is doing the same - while trying to find her lost children. And this sets up the conflict between the Wizard and the Witch - much like Civil War’s conflict between Tony and Steve.
Of course Dr. Strange “lost” its director then Sony decided they could *not* wait forever for SpiderMan - so now, in my opinion the story is a mess.
How big of a mess will be determined by Dr. Strange. Maybe clever retconning can fix it??? We’ll see.
@@summertyme5748 So my question on No Way Home is this. If they were "fixed" and sent back to the moment they came from - many would just die. Eg Electro would overload, Doc Ock would drown, etc.
So all the effort taken by the Spideys to fix them is pointless. In the event that the villains do somehow avert death .. then are we to assume that the villians came from an alternate timeline than the one we know?
The past can't be changed, so if we have a good Goblin and Doc Ock, that would need to be an alternate timeline from the movies we have already watched, yes?
Thank you so much. This explains it better than the movie I think, Bruce's speech always confused me. I'm used to the idea that taking somethin from the past = changing the future, here it does that but it splits into an alternate timelines. If they stayed that would've been their future. And Steve going back undoes those timelines from happening (I think).
You're most welcome. The timelines were created because of time travel, not the stones. Taking away a stone puts that timeline into massive risk. That's the Hulk-AncientOne conversation. But Steve would show up 2 minutes after Hulk leaves with the stone and so from the perspective of that timeline .. the stone almost never left. :)
The timeline however will continue to stay on.
Thanos and his army would be gone from one.
Loki would have escaped in another (and there is a series based on this)
Wanda Vision will also be based on one of these timelines, but the first two episodes barely revealed anything.. :)
@@baryflawless Right. WandaVision from what my friends told me and from the end of episode 3 I think is her creating her own reality to cope with Visions death and someone (Hydra, Shield, who knows) is studying this.
*Loki Episode 5*
Nothing new to say about the time travel elements so I thought i'd rate the 5 episodes on a scale 1 to 10:
*Episode 5.* Journey Into Mystery = 8 (Everything good about the series consolidated into 1 episode)
*Episode 1.* Glorious Purpose = 8 (sets up the whole weird fun series with smart writing great music good acting)
*Episode 2.* The Variant = 7 (incredible climax when she bombs the timelines - ruined by next weeks "jus-foolin" anti climax)
*Episode 3.* Lamentis = 4 (Pointless train ride stalls for time - ends with Loki breaking time pad and pulling 'powers' out of his butt)
*Episode 4.* Nexus Event = 3 (fake suspense dissolves into plot holes: bad writing for Ren Slayer/child steals her time pad/dumb stuff)
Ep5 picked up well, hope they keep the momentum up!
@summertyme, what are your thoughts on the finale of Loki? I didn't expect them to drag this on to another season. I thought they'd do 10 episodes and set the path for the "character" in MCU ..
@@bharatkrishna975 : Wrote in another thread - I loved the last episode. I thought the structure where episode 5 had the action sequences and episode 6 has the ideas is nice.
I'm not surprised that it ends on a cliff hanger.
I don't expect the multiverse to be 'resolved' on this show or even in Dr. Strange Multiverse of Madness.
This will go on past AntMan 3 which is supposed to have Kang in it, and only be resolved in Avengers 5 and beyond.
I feel this is so because Secret Wars is the big multiverse battle story and I suspect that this is where Marvel wants to lead to.
I think you will see either Fantastic 4 or X-Men or both primarily in other Universes than the 'sacred timeline' Avengers and the these Universes will create the next big conflict.
I'm happy with how Loki handled the time travel to this point.
So the more you go back in time, the more timelines you create, and eventually becomes the multiverse. So you can basically create infinite timelines and infinitely grab things from the past and bring them back to your timeline
Dr Strange has already mentioned 14 million futures that he has scanned. Looks like the multiverse is already there for reasons other than the Avengers.
This Is Barry it means you can infinitely grab objects from other timelines and bring them to your own. Not just objects, people too. You could bring 30 iron mans to your timeline or 30 infinity stones
One thing about Dr. Strange he speaks of all the ‘possible’ outcomes. Hard to know what this implies, but I envision he uses the time stone to see his future. Then he dies. Now he resets and sees the future - again, but this time he knows how he died, and so it’s different. And so on and iteratively 14 million + times.
Have to be careful about the time stone though - the Infinity Stones are utterly fantastical devices that *command* the Universe. Once you have all 6 of them you can do anything. Rewrite the complete history of the multiverse so that Howard the Duck was always the ruler. Etc.
This is heavy!
Haha .. In the future, is there a problem with the Earth's gravitational field? 😂
*Why is is hard to understand how the Avengers travel back to the main timeline?*
I’ve always wondered why some are confused about this, as the logic is inherently applied in everything they are doing.
To me this question is like - understanding that an airplane can fly, and that it flies from NY to LA….
How then does the plane fly back to NY from LA? Lol.
What??? It’s the same logic no matter the direction of course. Let’s apply to the Quantum Realm:
Can you travel from our Universe to the Quantum Realm? -> *yes*
Can you travel from the Quantum Realm to an alternate timeline? -> *yes*
Therefore you can travel back from an alternate timeline to the main timeline.
The hardest time I'm facing is with folks who are now saying (all over again in the Loki threads) that time-travel doesn't necessarily create time-lines. And I'm like, "nooo, not all over again!! 😭😭". I've stopped seeing the Twitter threads now.
@@baryflawless They jumped all over the idea that the TVA protects the timeline so that there's only one.
Of course the show really debunks this from the 1st episode if you pay attention.
The Miss Minutes animation explained that anything that was done to change the sacred timeline could create a nexus event...... Even being late for work.
A Nexus event is an alternate timeline.
In the very next episode Mobius explains that they can't simply go back to stop Sylvie before she kills their minute men because they have to enter a timeline in real time.
This is just another way of saying that changing the past doesn't change the future.
Which in turn is a way of saying that you can't change the past because it already happened.
@@summertyme5748 so true. If not immutable then it goes all the way back to going back and killing Baby Thanks. And that's where the whole conversation started! With the director being changed, wonder that the next season is going to feel like. Hope the writers up their game with their writing. Get more meat in the plot. If they sit around baby sitting their own terminology of timeline, reality and universe, there won't be a plot worth watching.
Nice explanation... But explain the part where Bruce banner hulk said that that if they return back all the stone no other timeline would be created just one ... That means when all the stones where returned the no alternate timeline was created
Oladokun Olamide No, you’ve misunderstood. Try to understand the general concept instead of applying it only to magical stones.
1st things first: Start with the fact that in the 2012 timeline *loki escapes.* That alternate timeline is the basis of the LOKI TV series on Disney +. So it is a fact - that they have created alternate timelines. That is canon.
2ndly: Context is critical. What Hulk is saying is that if you can overwrite changes that were made to a past timeline - then - in theory - they become identical to the present timeline.
If two branch timelines are functionally identical then mathematically they become a single set - a single reality. So in theory divergent timelines can be converged. Note: We do not see any proof in the film that this ever happens - but this *is* theory that Hulk Explains to the Ancient One.
In theory...
-> Ancient One gives Hulk the Stone.
-> He activates his quantum GPS returns to the future, snaps.
-> Then he comes back right after he left - and gives the stone back.
-> In theory the timelines would coverage -> as if *chronogically,* the stones were never taken.
This is why Hulk is saying that it’s possible to reconverage the timelines. This was always the goal - to return the stones to the past where they got them. However there is much that Hulk can’t know....
Now let’s look at why this doesn’t actually work....
The reason many get this confused is that they don’t understand the Hulk original explanation of time and branch timelines. It’s as if they literally are not *connecting* the Hulk’s explanation of time - to the notion of branch timelines at all. So let’s look again at what the Hulk says....
BRUCE BANNER: ...Time doesn't work that way. Changing the past doesn't change the future.
BRUCE BANNER: I don't know why everyone believes that, but that isn't true. Think about it: If you travel to the past, that past becomes your future. And your former present becomes the past. Which can't now be changed by your new future...
⬆️ It cannot be overstressed that in this entire explanation *there is not one darned word about stones.*
In Banner’s statement *new future* is branch timeline, alternate timeline, alternate reality. *All these terms have the same meaning in this film.*
If you understand this - it becomes clear that the cause of branch timelines is *not* taking stones. The cause is attempting to change the past.
It is actually very simple - only the act of willfully misunderstanding makes it hard: *You can’t change the past, because it already happened.* Anything you experience in the past happens in an alternate reality. Nothing that happens in the past can have any effect on the future in the main timeline. That’s why they can’t kill baby thanos. That’s why they can’t take the stones to prevent Thanos from getting them in the 1st place. That’s why the Ancient One can’t help Banner’s future (reality) from her present reality based on Banner’s past.
*Stones or no stones - she and Banner are native’s of different realities.*
In theory if you leave the past and reverse any change you made to it.... then that alternate reality reconverages with the main timeline.
However this can’t happen in 2014 - where thanos, nebula and Gamora are missing from the past.
It can’t happen in 2012 where Loki is run amok.
It can’t happen in 1970 where they stole Pym Particles and used them to return, and so cannot but them back.
And it can’t happen in 1948 where Cap goes back in time to live his life with Peggy and so inject a 2nd Steve Rogers into the timeline. (That is the very definition of alternate timeline, no matter how hard anyone tries to B$ around it)
Hulk doesn’t comment on any of these events when he’s talking to the Ancient One - because he doesn’t know about them.
All Captain America can really hope to do - is return the stones - so that at least each Universe is not permanently broken, without a means of regulating space, time,matter and energy, mind, soul and reality.
Let us know if you still have questions.
Thanks @Oladokun. There is nothing that I can add here. @Summer Time has it all covered in awesome detail.
Very good, best video out there
thanks ! :)
*So the Avengers lose in 14 million 604 timelines and only win in one, right?*
Not quite. But good question. The question is good because it tests understanding of the two most difficult constructs of the film,
Quantum Tunnel Multiverse time travel, and Infinity Stones.
1st thing to note is that they are fundamentally different.
The Quantum Tunnel obeys the laws of [fantasy] physics. The stones are beyond all of that. They are the essence of all existence and *command physics.*
Dr. Strange goes forward into the future - and then resets using the time stone.
He is creating pockets in time that reset over and over again.
The only timeline that continues to exist is the 1 timeline where the Avengers win. We know this because the filmmakers used the scene between Dr. Strange and Dormammu at the end of his movie as the basis for what Strange does in Infinity War.
Dormammu - kills Dr. Strange over and over only to reset. Dr. Strange's perspective is that he did die *over and over again.*
From our perspective he simply defeats Dormammu the one time. There is no reality that continues forward where Dormamu killed strange and won - this is part of what gets reset.
There is no way to do this by any other means than with complete command of time itself. IE- The time stone.
Likewise there are not 14 million realities where Thanos won - from any other perspective than the one who wielded the time stone, Dr. Strange. For everyone else what happens at the end of Endgame - is what happened, period.
This is likely impossible to understand unless you understand the time stone, and multiverse time travel, and the differences between them.
It’s helpful to remember what Baron Mordo in Dr. Strange said about the time stone:
*Temporal manipulations can create branches in time. Unstable dimensional openings. Spacious paradoxes! Time loops!!! You want to get stuck reliving the same moment over, and over, forever, or never having existed at all?*
The Quantum Tunnel is to the time stone as a Space ship is to the space stone.
The vehicles manipulate physics to their best advantage.
The stones command physics and write and potentially rewrite the rules.
The best way to view the limits of the Infinity Stones is that existence is in 6 dimensions physical (power) , mental, spiritual, space , time and reality.
But each stone is only 1 dimension. So to have absolute control of any one dimension - you need all 6. *That’s why Thanos needs all 6 stones, and likewise you’d need all 6 to undo his handiwork.*
Very interesting analysis! .. feeds well into your theory of Thanos being wiped out in every timeline all at once.
But, how did old Steve returned to 2023 without summoned at the quantum gate which bruce operates?
You don't have to be summoned by the gates. Remember Tony and Steve went from 2012 to 1970? There was no machine to summon them in 1970. The machine is like a satellite through spacetime. They use the GPS to navigate through time. 2023 is just one other location in time, and the bench is a location in space.
This Is Barry up 👍 Beat me to it. 😎
1:23:41 *Science vs. Mysticism* - or Hulk Smash Time:
THE ANCIENT ONE (2012): I'm sorry, I can't help you, Bruce. If I give up the Time Stone to help your Reality, I'm dooming my own.
BRUCE BANNER: With all due respect, I'm not sure the science really supports that.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
This is a debate between science and mysticism from which the film [and filmmakers] derives conclusions.
[at a 4th wall breaking level - it's also a debate between the scientists who wrote the MCU's time travel rules, and the screen writers who did not completely understand them - but that's a whole other issue]
What it means -> The Ancient One has already implied that there are multiple realities - one for Bruce - whose dark future - from the Ancient One's perspective is an alternate reality.
A reality which *for him* has already happened, but from her perspective - may or may not happen. {Bruce is a ghost of Christmas future, to her}
From Ancient Ones perspective - if she gives up the time stone - their Universe no longer has a mechanism for regulating time - perhaps not unlike Dormamu's dark dimension which is a Universe without time. At a simplistic level - it means Dr. Strange would not be able to stop Dormamu a few years from now. But this applies logically to all stones:
Universe without a control mechanism for time, space, reality, power, mind or soul - is a *broken* universe.
*This is why they must return the stones*
And no...it is not available for them to say to heck with the other timelines.
The whole 3rd act of the film is dedicated to the fallacy of messing with one timeline - without understanding the devastating repercussions you could have on another.
Bruce's counterpoint is this: If he can take the stone, and then immediately return it, the result is essentially the same as if he'd never taken it
Implicitly the timelines would then reconverge.
In Bruce's theory of time - timelines once created are not destined to forever diverge. They can be reconverged. In principal this makes sense. If a reality is a distinct set of current events, then even if the past is altered and a divergent reality was created for the *past* that alteration can be subsquently re altered and made to reconverge to the present. So this is the second reason why Bruce must return the stones.
1) To prevent doomed realities with missing command control mechanisms
2) To attempt to reconverge the timelines into one - fixed reality.
And this is what the Ancient One agrees to. *Professor Hulk - SMASH- time*
Beautiful. And this is what Steve refers to as "clipping the branches", and not "clipping the alternate timelines"