I got the exact same packet! I ordered several shirts, the guitar instructional video and a Vengeance Rising iron on patch. I was so hurt to see how he has fallen away.
Man, you took a bigger $ hit than I did. I'm fascinated by the politics of that scene; people would just disappear and never be spoken of again. Thanks for watching man!
When the 3rd album came out - the one without all the Die Happy guys - I emailed him to ask him a question about one of the lyrics and say what a fan I was. He sent me back a polite letter explaining the lyric and I was thrilled. Honestly, if I had to guess the guy probably did get screwed over but he also had a significant mental health episode. I remember talking to the lead singer of Angelica in a christian book store and he said that Roger was 'out there' but at the time teen me thought he meant it like, genius/eccentric/inscrutable. But maybe he was talking about something else...
As a kid I went between "Roger was screwed absolutely" and "Roger went crazy or was never a Christian." As we grow up we realize things aren't that black-and-white. I think Roger was treated unfairly by the industry and the church which exacerbated any mental problems, but if even a portion of the stories are true Roger had his own issues that were totally separate from the situation. Thanks for watching and contributing, Christopher, I appreciate it!
Man, that's AWESOME! Much better than a shirt, though I'd probably slap someone's momma for any of their shirts. On a side note, Once Dead is really starting to become one of my all-time favorite records. Everything about it is great, but the riffs and solos are absolutely untouchable. And I can't think of anything that comes even close to the overall viciously dirty sound, style and vibe of this record. I listen to a lot of black/death metal and Into the Abyss is one of the heaviest songs about Satan ever laid to tape. Anyway, great video on an epic piece of music history!
Thanks a lot man, glad you enjoyed it! That's very interesting how much you like Once Dead, it is my least favorite of the four (though I still enjoy it). The shirt would have been cool, but it would have been rags long ago and I still have this little piece of history.
Years ago,I was in a band(91-93)the bassist/friend,was a VengeanceRising fan.He wrote them,and recieved,what he called"hate mail"from Roger Martinez.That story always stuck with me.
Thank you for posting this! I've searched high and low for any traces of this letter to no avail, so this is awesome. I always heard stories about people receiving this letter and what the tone of it was, but I had never heard or read what was actually written in it before now
Glad you enjoyed it, Bill! It is funny, the 90s doesn't seem like very long ago, but since the internet wasn't prevalent yet some things just aren't documented. The other day I was trying to look up information on a record store I used to go to, and there is absolutely no trace that it ever existed. Glad I could preserve this letter. Thanks again, man!
I remember when Vengeance first came out. I wrote a letter to Roger and he responded multiple times with cassettes answering all of my questions in detail. Super thoughtful guy. I asked them to come and play a show in Minneapolis and put him in contact with a venue. They came to town and did a show and I met up with Roger for lunch and conversation. Very interesting guy. It was kind of funny afterwards because a buddy and I were hanging out with Roger and he showed us a video of a pyramid scheme he was trying to sign us up for. Melaleuca products. Lol. It was hilarious that he was trying to make money because the band was barely making ends meet. And then a couple years later, I received that same packet. My brother was in a Christian thrash band called Crimson Thorn and I shared the letter with everyone in the band... We were very disappointed and bummed out about it. I'm a lot older now and don't believe the same things I did back then I had a personal awakening and Hope he has mellowed out as well. I hope Roger still has his real estate business going and he has simmered down a bit. Super super intense guy no matter what he's doing and I just hope he's at peace. Side note: when we went out to lunch with him he said he forgot his wallet back at the venue...lol! We planned on paying for his lunch anyway but it was kind of funny at the time. 😅
Getting you to pay for lunch and also trying to sign you up for MLM...sounds like quite the character! 😁 I'm a big fan of your brother's band. I saw them at a little fest here in Michigan in 94 and had them all sign the first CD. Thanks for sharing your story, man!
@@n0s0luti0n That's cool! Would that have been the Michigan mosh? I remember hearing about it because they didn't do a lot of out of town gigs at the time.
I still have my Human Sacrifice shirt... Although, if I recall, I may have purchased it at a concert. I'm glad you put the time into some of the explanation of what Roger was going through. It has always been one of those really mysterious occurrences in the white metal scene that left many of us perplexed and disappointed in the whole music industry.
That secrecy was a frustrating part of the Christian music scene at the time (I don't know if it is the same now). I went to a Christian metal fest around that time and one of the headliners was inexplicably not playing. I couldn't get any answers about that either. 😃 Thanks for watching and commenting, appreciate it!
I just came across this video by accident, and I'm really glad that I did. Thank you for putting in the missing pieces to a story I never got the complete version of. I remember hanging out with Victor Macias in Columbus, Ohio, in '93, and I asked him about Roger. He kinda clammed up a little and got really sad. He then started telling me that Roger was in a bad way and really needed prayer. I eventually got enough information out of him to get the gist of what was happening, but I never put it all together until I heard some of that letter. Roger did eventually contact me to inform me that he was starting a Church of Secular Humanism and making a rebuttal tape for every teaching tape he'd ever made. Wild. I actually went through a VERY similar situation in 2007, but I reacted a bit differently. I appreciate you taking the time to share this video. I'll check out some more of your content and give you a sub.
Thanks Jerry, I am glad you got something out of this video. I'm surprised by how many people have responded with their own stories. Thank you for sharing yours! Were you involved in the Christian scene? Thanks for the sub, most of my stuff is just standard "dude in basement shows records" so no hard feelings if it doesn't interest you. 😃
@No Solution I was the lead singer and sometimes guitarist and keyboardist for a Christian metal band called Golgotha from 92-94, and I disbanded Golgotha and started an industrial metal band called Crystmynd from 95 until I recently "semi-retired". I was friends with a lot of the Christian metal bands of the early and mid-90s like Tourniquet, Mortal, The Crucified, Iron Angel, Mortification, Bride, and Dominion. And I do enjoy some of your content as a music fan and collector of all kinds of things. I can relate to the "guy in the basement" stuff. My collection is just all over the house until I get moved and dedicate a room (or two) to it.
What a great video friendo... I'm really glad you posted it. I'd really like you to be on one of this years videos with Simon Karnes with me. I so hope all is well with you. I'm loving life and want you to do the same.
Great to hear from you Roger and happy to know you are doing well! It would be great to do a video with you and talk to you in person, just let me know when and where. Cheers!
Bless you Roger I must have warn out at least 2 or 3 tapes of Once Dead after they were irreparable with a pencil and scotch tape. I saw you all in ABQ when you guys showed up late and still played your set. You guys were my firstFavorite metal band that set the bar🤙 hope these days are better for you ⚡
I still have this letter. It was such an exciting mystery for me as a teenager at the time. My parents were frustrated by it, but I thought it was awesome, and I was sympathetic.
Thanks for posting this. I ordered a Burn Satan Burn shirt back in the early 90’s. Never received it. I had heard that Roger had left the church. I always felt so sad for him. I hate that all that stuff happened to him and poisoned his view of Christianity.
Yeah, obviously there are different sides to the story but it really seems like Roger got a raw deal. Glad you were interested Wes, thanks for watching!
@@n0s0luti0n I got a letter as well..I was mad about it cause I didn’t have much money growing up and I saved a long time for it..wish I would have kept the letter..
@@bigphil3362 I hear you, mine was a gift but I didn't have much money of my own either so I would have been angry too if it was something I saved up for. Glad I hung on to the letter, being a packrat pays off sometimes! Thanks for watching, Phil!
Thanks a lot for this video! I'm about your age and was a huge Vengeance Rising fan as a teenager, too. I'm from Germany and I remember a scandal in the mid-90s, when the "White Metal Club Germany" made the claim they had sent some money to Jimmy P. Brown II so he could buy tickets for the whole band and come to Germany and tour. Nobody ever knew what happened to that money and I only remember Jimmy saying that "everybody had their own story" which I thought was a very weak explanation and he probably just took the money and told himself it was "God sent". You say "Once Dead" hasn't aged well. I have never really liked "Once Dead" because of its thin sound, even when it came out. Just recently my parents sold their house and I had to go and save my old CD collection, so recently I found myself going through all these old albums, and I must say that I still hate the sound on "Once Dead" but the slow tunes (and the slow parts of the fast songs) are still great and heavy. They would have deserved a better production! "Destruction" could have been great with a better sound AND some professional musicians because Roger wasn't able to pull it off all by himself. In the end I dropped out of my Christian youth group and the Christian music scene. When I decided I wanted become a professional musician and study music in L.A., my old Christian buddies treated me as if I had turned into a satanist LOL I knew right then I had made the right decision.
Thanks for your story! Too many examples of that judgemental stuff in the Christian scene. I think that is why it was such a revolving door; no one could live up to the standards they set for themselves. Interesting story about JB; through his recent activity online he seems pretty self important. Deliverance was supposed to headline a fest I went to in the 90s. They didn't show and no one would talk about why. Off topic, but if you want some of that old Tourniquet sound check out Flood, Guy and Gary's new band. Fantastic stuff. Thanks for watching, brother!
I knew Roger way back when. He actually came to a Bible study and lead a meeting. He was smart....knew his stuff. It is sad he went the way he did....but to each his own.
Yeah, I don't think anyone doubted Roger's intelligence, just some of his choices. Thanks for watching and chiming in, Keith. I really appreciate you and the other people who have shared their personal experiences around the story.
@@michigunsanta8680 blaming the bible is childish. there are many stories of fake believers in the bible. we are warned about this in the bible. so why is any body shocked when it happens.? pointing out hypocrites in the church does not absolve you of your responsibility to God. 2 timothy 3:7 says " always learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth". the bible does not allow anyone to get away with anything. everyone is accountable for their actions. all atheists do is make excuses. you become a atheist because you love your sin.
Nice try. Many people who are in the church sincerely left because they opened up their mind to the 99% of information that is out there that they ignored because they were worried it would make them question their faith. By looking at science, biology, and common sense, we can come to a different conclusion. Trying to say that atheists love their sin and that's why they don't believe is a crock and I think you really know it. @@racerx4152
I have a similar packet dated 4/23/93 and handwritten at top is July 6 '93., with the exception of the letter of him going off. I bought the Mulligan Stew shirt mailorder from the band when I was in high school and "Human Sacrifice" just came out. I sold it on popular auction website a couple years ago for $100. Got to meet Roger in 1989, once at MetalFest 1989 in Decautur, IL and a few weeks later at Cornerstone. Cool dude and the other guys were just great to hang out with. The promo photo, Roger was wearing a Die Happy shirt...which was a just a shirt logo at that point, becoming the band's name later. And I have that poster somewhere...with the whole band, not just Roger 🤪 Watching those realtor videos is a hoot though!
Haha, yes it is, I stumbled on those years ago when I was looking for any information about the Satanic album that never happened. That's really cool that you got to see the band in the early days, I wish I had but never did. The only one of those early big Christian bands I saw was Tourniquet a couple of times, but it was with the Luke Easter lineup. Thanks for watching and sharing your stories man!
That's wild. I got the same packet around the same time. I had sent a letter to Pastor Bob about any new bands that were coming out. Somehow that letter ended up in Roger's hands and he sent that packet addressed to my father (though he didn't know the name, just put Mr. w/ last name) with a note to my dad about why he shouldn't be helping me support Christian metal bands, along with a note to me responding that he wasn't in touch with anyone in the scene anymore. And, of course, that stapled pack of rambling letters that were all over the place. It was hard to make heads or tails of it all except for the gist you laid out in the end of this video. I guess I must've thrown it out at some point though now I'm wishing I hadn't!
I have things I've hauled around for decades that I should have thrown away, but the silver lining is I kept this, haha. I thought these just went out to unfulfilled orders, cool to know how you got one too. Thanks for telling your story!
That sucks man. I heard some stories like that but just wanted to focus on the letter and what I actually knew to be true. Was this before he left the church? Thanks for watching!
I appreciate you reading the infamous “f-word letter”. My friend got that same letter and we read it together. Our reaction was a combination of empathy and uproarious laughter. I was 15 at the time, and had seen them on the Released Upon the Earth tour with George Ochoa, Mike Wagel, and Johnny Vasquez. It was in Phoenix, summertime, and quite unpleasant. I liked Roger’s unpredictable, outspoken, and confrontational approach to EVERYTHING, but I was a teen, alas. I think two things can be true at the same time, 1) The Christian music industry has been about making money 2) Roger had a genuine experience with God, was mightily used by God, made bad financial decisions, worked for a crooked industry, got discouraged, lost his ever lovin’ mind, faith, and was filled with shame of failure. That makes for a very bitter, jaded, and angry atheist/anitheist…or whatever humanist hat he wears. I can identify with losing my way and making terrible choices because of discouragement. My heart goes out to the man, but I also feel there is much more to the story than he has told.
That is a great encapsulation of the conclusions I have come to! My friends and I had the same reaction to the letter at the time. Like most real life situations I am sure there are no heroes, just varying degrees of human failure on both sides. That's cool you got to see them live, I am also a big fan of George Ochoa from his time in Deliverance. Thanks Owen, I really appreciate your comments!
Wow. I got a letter from Roger around the same time but it was just hand written, answering a few questions I had. He's always been entertaining, a raving madman either as a Christian or a Satanist, but you can easily trace his downward spiral, which sadly seemed to begin with the dissolution of (the real) Vengeance Rising. Shame, since, Once Dead is still one of my favorite albums. These days, based on what interviews and clips I've seen, he seems to be doing much better (meds, therapy?) Back to a warm and jovial version of himself (yes, still an atheist). And yes, he is still promising a forthcoming Vengeance album, and this time, according to third party sources, it is legit. So, the story still is not over! Thanks for posting!
I watched the first two parts of his recent interview but got behind, I didn't know there were plans for a new album! Should be interesting. I'm glad he is in a good place now. Thanks for sharing and watching, I appreciate it!
I chuckled because I sent money for a T-shirt and one of his Bible training tapes (ordered it from the back of one of the VR tape sleeves). I received neither one. 😅 And I had no clue he sent out letters because I never got one of those either. 😮 I'm not even mad because I still enjoy the music and I still pray for Roger.
Wow! I can’t remember what was written in my packet but I got the exact same one when I was in my mid to late teens. Same cut out photo and all. I will pray for Rodger to come back to God.
I knew there had to be a lot of these sent out but in the pre-internet days I didn't know about anyone else that got one! 😁Thanks for sharing and watching, Marc!
This just popped up in my suggestions. Very interesting story. A friend recently reached out to him (like 2 months ago) for a podcast interview, and it became a nightmare of abuse, threats, constant badgering, etc. So he is still bad off.
Years ago, I was reading through a metal message forum, and there was a thread about Vengeance/Roger Martinez posted. Jimmy Brown from Deliverance jumped in the and was answering questions. Someone asked him what happened with Roger, and the gist of his answer was 1 John 2:19, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." I thought that was interesting coming from someone that knew him well.
I love Jimmy's music but probably wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him. 😀 I just clicked on your channel and wow! Were you a wrestling tape trader? Lots of cool stuff to watch, I'll be spending a lot of time there. Thanks for watching, man!
@@n0s0luti0n Actually, in my free time I run a Patreon where I systemically cover mma/kickboxing/Japanese pro wrestling from 1991 onwards. I also happen to have what is perhaps the world's largest collection of mma/kickboxing/puroresu/etc. My RUclips channel has a small fraction of what my Patreon does. There's currently close to 5000 events over there with about 15000 more to be added. As far as Roger Martinez goes, from all I've read I get the impression that he was a troubled baby Christian that was flung into positions of leadership way before he was ready for it. Sadly, this seems to be common in the Christian music world to put someone in the spotlight before they're ready. I also remember reading that Ted Kirkpatrick helped Roger financially when times were tough only to get dumped on by Roger, of course, I don’t know how accurate that is.
@@kakutogiroad1866 Speaking of American wrestling, Richard Christy of the Howard Stern Show had a lot to say about it in this prank call to an Internet wrestling show 🤣 ruclips.net/video/fqxvBzNblik/видео.html
I got the 1993 letter, after buying some teaching tapes. I was a Junior in college, so had no funds, and didn't have a clear path to knowing how to reach back out to Roger to encourage him in what he was going through. Relieved beyond words that he did sort things out in his life (he's posted videos of his mortgage business). I've accepted we likely don't see eye to eye on religion, but his being in a better place overall is still important. Much respect to a guy who's music I was way into back in the day.
Totally agree man. Going through those letters as a middle aged man was a lot different than as a young teen. I'm glad he came out the other side. Thanks for watching!
I listened to a lot of Vengeance albums in middle school & high school before i got saved! Then several years later got saved and spent years in different Christian churches and demoninations and have seen a lot of hypocrisy and clicks like high school and and snooty attitudes.I have also seen a lot of great things being done in some Churches too so i don't judge Roger for feeling the way he has or does.I also have had people close to me turn their back on me and betray me like family, ex-wife.These experiences made me closer to God than i was before because in The Bible Jesus had people that he was close to betray him too.He understands us better than we actually understand ourselves.Definetely praying for Roger and i still like all the Vengeance albums
Unfortunately humans are in charge of churches so they can go wrong. Roger seems happy now so I am happy about that. Thanks for watching, Jeff, and for sharing your story!
Yeah man, the shirt would have been nice, but I agree that you got your money's worth regardless! I'll be honest, I've been hearing the stories for years about how Roger had lost his mind, but I always wondered if maybe the "crazy" aspect had been played up a bit to rationalize away the fact that he had deconverted. No longer. He sounds like nothing so much as an old friend of mine who ended up killing himself. What a tragic story... I don't care what he believes now, I'm just glad he survived it.
Yeah, I hope he is doing okay. I hadn't seen this stuff shared anywhere and thought you and Scott would find it interesting. Definitely ended up being more valuable than a shirt I would have thrown away long ago! Thanks for watching Aaron, you are one of my RUclips idols. 😀
I followed this story fairly closely as it happened. I really don't think anyone was playing up the crazy thing to rationalize his deconversion. I remember people (including myself) calling Roger "crazy" in jest or disbelief, but the sad reality is he was honest about falling into drug addiction, and looking back on the story as a full grown adult, every single sign is there to indicate he was in very deep. I'm sure you guys have had some experiences trying to help a person who is deep into drug addiction, and one thing I have found is that the paranoia is very real. Poor ole Roger was done wrong by his wife, his church, his band mates, his record label, his peers in the Christian music industry, and pretty much everyone he ever met. He proceeded to do plenty of things that could reasonably lead people to declare him crazy. I remember that soon after these letters were written, he started up a Vengeance Rising web page that landed somewhere between heartbreaking and pure hilarious entertainment. It was loaded with slander stories of people he worked with in the Christian music industry, pornography, bazaar images of varies people such as Mother Theresa burning in hell, point for point rebuttals of his own lyrics, and promises of new music that never came out. If the internet would have been in full swing when this happened, this story would be the stuff of legends with vast volumes of content availabe.
In all the shock it was easy to forget that this was a real person. He seemed to have some legitimate grievances and unfortunately handled them very badly.
@@n0s0luti0n sadly some people are heavily screwed over in conservative Christianity due to human nature and Paul's unfortunate words about not taking the brothers to court certainly also play a part in it. It is a problem.
Tourniquest wrote a song called "Bearing Gruesome Cargo", which is basically the sound track for Roger... "This is why I am the way that I am You know I'm carrying with me Over twenty years of pity My whole personality Was formed by others, not me When I look back on my life One that's always filled with strife I rode down a bad course Nobody's fault but yours My step always threw me right down the stairs So forgive me when I do the same thing to you I know it must seem like you're daddy never cares But if you knew what I've been through You'd do the same thing too Well I can't make a move Without draggin' all my baggage My father always cursed So forgive me for my language Please excuse me for yelling Pardon me for telling you to stop Selling to me your God in Heaven This is why I am the way that I am This is why I am the way that I am If I can keep this up for the rest of my days I may never have to take responsibility For my ways..."
@@n0s0luti0n to be clear...I don't necessarily think that Tourniquet wrote the song about Roger as much as they wrote it about people who think and live like Roger.
Hey man, I'm a huge a VR fan. And Rogers downfall is a subject I'm very interested in. Is there anyway possible you could make a copy of that packet? I would love to dive deep into it.
That is some crazy shit! Sounds as if Roger was having a full fledged meltdown and was sharing it with everyone on his mailing list. That is a priceless artifact of one man's descent into madness. Great video!
Thanks man, glad you enjoyed it! As a kid I just thought Roger had gone crazy, but with some life experience it is clear he was done wrong by people he trusted and was in a crisis. Glad he made it through.
I mainly clicked because Im a big fan of the Keep of Kalessin song by the same name (Perhaps named after this band?) and now am about to hear an interesting story I reckon lol
@@Zyborggian I never made that connection with the song. I wonder if it was a tribute, haha. Even though it wasn't what you were looking for, I hope you enjoyed the story!
1000 thumbs up, WOW! I just stumbled across this video and so glad I did. I actually saw Vengeance LIVE in southern California in 1991 with my death metal drummer Christian friend who attended a pentecostal church. I'm Baptist myself and born-again for sure, once saved always saved and felt in many ways in the 90's as Roger did in that letter. The organized religion and the (legalism) of so many churches pissed me off as they not only preached do's and don'ts and how we can lose our salvation, but went over the top with saying we need to speak in tongues in order to complete the salvation transaction and be filled with the Holy Spirit. My drummer pal left the faith completely and and now renounces it altogether and it was that fake pentecostal, speaking in tongues so called church of goat herders that gave him the willingness to leave completely and now say that there is no God. Just in my own local Baptist church the assistant pastor and head elder both left their wives and prayed that God would expedite their divorce so they could remarry. I thought WTH is going on here? Seeing the phoney faith healers and TV goat herders, the two faced legalism and wannabe political awareness of Calvary Chapel turned me into a mad as hell seeker to find the Truth and who to listen to and who to avoid, call out and bitch slap if need be! I could go on all day about that topic. But what i will say, is that the first album Vengeance Rising is great and the LYRICS are some of the most truthful and powerful of any and all Christian songs ever made! Roger, you're in my prayers and I consider you a friend. I just saw this video as it came up after seeing this one: (AHCWC with Roger Martinez) and I will say that my love, respect and faith in Christ, of the Bible, is stronger every day in spite of earthly circumstances as I know i must read and hear the Word daily with prayers and rely on God's grace and mercy for daily living as I have the hope of heaven. If anyone wishes to know which few preachers I know of who are solid, uplifting and real, just ask me.
A lot of organized religion is very disheartening, full of people who use it for power and to glorify themselves. I am happy for you that you have found a path that works. Thank you for sharing your story, Erich, glad you enjoyed the video!
Vengeance is my alltime favorite death metal band! Back in 89 I heard them and it really got me involved in Christian metal. I still listen to them! I had a chance to meet them at cornerstone and couldn't make it. I was sad Roger got deceived and led back to the world. As far as healing goes and why he got discourages is he went by sight and not faith. I've gotten healed and a friend with terminal cancer got healed recently. Roger got blinded by satanic demons and wr need to bind it and command it to leave in Jesus name. But vengeance is still an amazing band for us thrashers...I am semi famous and wear VR shirts live! Keep the faith!
He really sounded tortured. It's no surprise that he lost his faith. If only he had poured over the book of Job at that time...I trust that the Lord will lead him Home for good. He did for me. I just realized that shortly after buying Released Upon the Earth I walked away from the church and all things Christian. Pretty interesting timing, considering finding recently that Roger did too. It took me 30 years, but I found my way back. I really pray that Roger does. 🙏
He does sound tortured. As a kid I didn't know how to process it and thought he was just crazy, now I have a lot more empathy for his state of mind. Thanks for watching and sharing your story brother!
I saw Vengeance Rising in 1992 in Dallas' Deep Ellum district. There was a club that I think doubled as a street church, mainly focusing on youth. I'm an atheist now and was not religious at all back then. I simply liked the band's music. I couldn't understand the lyrics, anyway. So, rather than wearing a Slayer or Megadeth shirt, I borrowed a friend's Whitecross shirt that was 2 sizes too small for me. I remember the band was very friendly, meeting the crowd, chatting with us and generally being good guys. If I'd received that letter, I'd write back and say, "Dude, don't worry about the shirt. I hope your problems get resolved."
That is awesome that you got to see them. I wasn't that bummed out about never getting the shirt; receiving the letter felt like I was "on the inside" a bit, in the pre internet days. Thanks, man!
@@n0s0luti0n I remember the entire venue smelled like....candy. They used a smoke machine, so I think it was some chemical they used for the smoke. The entire place smelled like a Halloween festival. That part is vivid. It was a good concert, though. Roger seems like a REALLY intense guy. I'm sure this was compounded by his life cratering around this time. There's a video of him in an office promoting a mortgage business. He's in a white shirt and tie. It looks like h's turned his life around. Good for him.
@@wulfbak the preview of your comment ended at "smelled like..." And I would have bet my house the next word was going to be urine. 😄 Roger seems in a much better place now, thankfully.
I appreciate the info Dave! At that time if there were any problems in the Christian scene no one would talk about it, like that person no longer existed. I had to wait 30 years but finally hearing more about the situation. Thanks for watching!
1993 is the year I graduated highschool. I was really into Vengeance Rising, Deliverance, Sacred Warrior. I pretty much got whatever Frontline/Intense Records put out. Whatever Pure Metal Records and R.E.X. releases, I was in a hurry to the Christian Bookstore. I'd buy Pastor Bob's sermon tapes through the mail, etc. It was called the "F word letter" I used to correspond with Sanctuary and such. I got issues with the evangelical community myself, from some BS I had to deal with over the years.
Sadly humans will fail us, sorry you had to deal with that. It was a special time with some great bands. My friends and I would get some strange looks going in to the Christian bookstore to check out the new metal releases, haha. Thanks, man!
@soulkiss1001 He mentioned having me on the show with him, but I never heard anything else after that. I asked a question on one of the shows and never got a response.
Crazy. What happened to Roger after all these years? I remember hearing he went off the deep end (obvi., after watching your video). I went with some friends back in the early 90s to see them live at either a church or school, I can’t remember, in north Texas, and I think it was about an hour north of where I live in Plano, something like that, maybe Sherman or something I don’t know. I’ll never forget the guys hanging out backstage and one of them was eating an apple, and I think we got to chat briefly with them and they were all pretty nice from what I remember.
Roger is doing fine now but firmly an atheist. My uneducated opinion is he had some personal problems that were compounded by his church and the Christian music business doing him wrong. I would have loved to see Vengeance Rising live! Thanks for sharing your story John, I appreciate it!
@@n0s0luti0n I was his best friend skate boarding was our love-i became a born again christian in '79-told him about Christ and he too became a born again -he founded a church in Hollywood and I introduced him to his future wife Ruby--lastest news as of today he is battling cancer-i don't want to be a around him anymore -he has threatened my life two times-he wanted to kill me -in a strange demonic voice he told me that he was going to slice me into little pieces of flesh--smh after all we have been through-i ended our friendship
Wow, my heart goes out to Roger...applause for his character in not being a thief of peoples money and trying to be a good human being and Christian. Obviously he reached his breaking point 😢
Greetings from Norway. Wow this was interesting to see. I'm not a huge fan of VR but I have a few songs from their first album on my playlist. Really like the song "Burn" and "Mulligan Stew". Say, are you a christian or nah? I'm not a believer anymore but I love metal and still listen to some christian bands like Deliverance, Stryper, Bride, Tourniquet.. Sincerely, Simen
I'm not a Christian, but I'm not "scandalized" by Christian themes. I'm not a Satanist either and I listen to a ton of Satanic music. Deliverance and Tourniquet were two of my favorites back in the day, along with Believer and Living Sacrifice. Just checked out your channel and saw you did a DT ranking, I'll be watching that. Thanks, Simen!
As some one who was involved in the Christian music scene at that time one thing I can assure you is Roger definitely had some mental problems. I worked for Son Power productions and we promoted a few gigs with the original line up. I’ve been around some of the other bands in the scene that had worked with Roger and the consensus is is that Roger was extremely difficult to work with and seemed to put what money he would be making as first priority. I’ve been in contact with Steve Rowe of Mortification who Roger helped get signed and helped produce some records for, Roger kept saying that they owed him money. According to Steve, they and the label payed Roger as any other producer for his work. Roger then left threatening messages on Steve’s answering machine demanding a “finders fee” for getting them signed ( most of this is from an interview Steve did some 25 years ago but confirmed to me when I talked to him at a gig I helped do stage crew for.). As for the other members of Vengeance leaving and forming Die Happy, according to some interviews and the very few interactions I’ve had with them (I stress “very few”) the Once Dead tour was a complete disaster. The total debt expenditures exceeded $50,000. According to interviews from Pastor Bob and the other members, after the tour it was agreed that Roger would take on the name and all debt so he could continue with Vengeance as sole owner with all rights. Originally it was proposed that they just end the band and each member take on an equal share of the debt but Roger said no because he wanted the name and rights. When the rest of the band formed Die Happy is when Roger really got angry with them as he felt they “left him” for greener pastures. The only face to face interaction I have had with the band was during the Once Dead tour. I worked on a gig in Hartford, Ct and boy was it interesting. Roger seemed kinda… creepy. That’s my personal take. The other members seemed like genuinely nice guys, especially Larry. But the other four members seemed to distance themselves from Roger. At one point the production guys had some one outside the venue selling tickets as the ticket window was a bit slow and most kids were buying at the door. Someone knocked the ticket seller to the ground and stole the ticket money (several hundred dollars). Roger found out and became extremely angry saying “you let someone steal my money” or something to that effect. The show went on Sacred Warrior was the opener. Vengeance sounded ok, Roger did A LOT of scatter brained preaching. Over all it was a very down night generally speaking. After the show Roger was preaching to some of the kids in a very haphazard way, making zero sense. They other guys thanks everyone and we’re very cool about everything but seemed very down. They seemed very drained, like they were kind of over the strain of things. According to some interviews from former members after Roger’s “deconvertion”, they have speculated that Roger might have been involved in drug use prior to joining the band. Again, just speculation. But it’s been said he kinda just showed up out of nowhere. He was in a band with George Ochoa of Deliverance fame before Vengeance as they (Vengeance) originally had a female vocalist. He supposedly came to an open audition and kinda took over everything. And after that it was just assumed that he would be the vocalist. After that is when the “Roger is very difficult to work with” rumors started. Most of the guys in that scene back then are no longer believers now anyway or probably weren’t either so make of that what you will. Those who are and are willing to talk about it all have the same stories. They all line up. Roger had problems coming into it, they got worse, Roger made some incredibly bad decisions, he got angry, made death threats (some to completely random people), became an atheist/satanist… whatever, everyone else just wanted to move on. This is just my 2 cents based on interviews (some well over 20 years old), a some articles I’ve read and the very, VERY few direct interactions I’ve had with those directly involved. Take it for what you want. Believe me, don’t believe me. It’s ok. Vengeance made some great music and the Roger saga is crazy and incredibly entertaining but also incredibly sad no matter what you believe. Personally I side more with the rest of the band and others. They’ve said that they didn’t always make the best decisions either so… whatever.
Rob, thanks so much for sharing your stories. As someone who was just a fan at the time it was very hard to learn any real information. The church side wouldn't talk except to say "Roger is crazy" so Roger's side is all I knew. Then Roger seemed to confirm the "crazy" part with his hyping of the Satanic album that never happened. Your stories provide more of the picture. Thanks again man, I was really glad to learn all of this.
@@n0s0luti0n Hey, no problem man. This is a very deep rabbit hole and I definitely do NOT know everything. I don’t think anyone really does. Most of the interviews I mentioned are from Heaven’s Metal Magazine which I believe are archived. Roger has done some interviews in the last couple years and they all sound the same. He’s angry, people betrayed him, he blames God for the betrayal and subsequently doesn’t believe in God anymore basically because of that and won’t take responsibility for his poor decisions in life. I don’t think the band or anyone else save the record companies were trying to hurt Roger. The record companies are a business and well… business is business. They wanna make money. It’s been said before, “be careful what you sign”. As for the other band members and people involved, they all say the same thing as I’ve stated previously. There’s even an interview with a drummer that worked with Roger on the yet to be realized “Realms of Blasphemy” record were he states he wants to forget he ever got involved with Roger. “ I quit shortly after I joined which was 1998. As far as I know, there was no album recorded. But I don't know much about it if there was, because I just wanted nothing to do with that excuse called a "band" after I quit. I thought it would have been a great opportunity at the time I joined, but that faded quickly. I just don't like to get into this subject. This is one of those things I wish never happened and would love to erase that from any history ever!” - Shannon Frye 2007 former drummer for Vengeance Rising All I can say is no one is perfect, yes, even Christians. It’s been over 25 years. Time to get over it and move on Roger. 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
I'm looking for for the white throne T-shirt my mom thru away 20 years ago! Still ticked off a little about that! But the look on mom's face when I use to tell her it was christian metal was priceless!! Like Annikan Skywalker Roger was turned to the dark side! I think the powerful words of revelation put into one of the baddest metal bands on earth had a lotta weight for Roger. I was blessed to see these guys twice. Once Dead⚡🤘⚡
Vengeance was some raw metal back in the day!! Savory on the taste buds they were! I saw Crucified on their pillars of humanity tour as well! Those guys shredded!!
What insane bitterness! I can't help but speculate why his wife left him. Especially after what I've heard about his in-studio tyranny. I'm not defending those who ripped him off, though that is just one side of the story. His foul mouthed rant in the second letter sounds very similar to those of narcissistic drug addicted has been, Bam Margera.
I feel really sorry for Roger. Think what you will of religion, I understand that a lot of people don't understand it or just don't believe, but it DOES mean so very much, so very deeply, to so many people. For many, it's at the very core of who you are as a person and the way you see the world and all things in it. It's a travesty when other people and money (NOT God) ruin someone's views and their opinion of it. Even if you don't believe, you still have to understand how devastating upending someone's entire world and belief system like that would be. Fortunately, God never gives up on anyone, and His love is eternal. I pray that Roger finds peace in his life, and that he finds God again despite all that he's been though. Wherever he is, I hope he is well. Thanks for your music, Roger. No matter what, it meant a lot to a lot of people like me.
My wife ordered the same shirt for me as a Christmas gift and it never arrived. She got the cancelled check back and that was it - no letter or otherwise. :(
Roger Martinez should not have put his faith and trust in man. He should never have followed man. That was his mistake from the beginning. No one promised any of us secular or saved a rose garden in this life. He shoukd have understoid that from the lesson of Adam and Eve! The only persons who were ever promised a rose garden by God, was Adam and Eve,.. and we all know how that went.! We live in a fallen world,.. man will fail you all the time! Roger should have put his faith and trust in Jesus Christ and maybe had in or two extremely close brothers or sisters in Christ! Don't follow man. Even Christian men always follow Christ!. We are told in God's word to guard our salvation with fear and trembling! Obviously Roger never did. I will always pray for Roger but his bitterness is from his own failure to see the failures of man! He needs to get back to God! And even if he walked 10,000 steps away, it's only one step back! Everybody needs to pray for Roger Martinez!
There is a great story there if anyone could piece it together. If someone ever left the church no one would talk about it so they would just vanish. Roger at least tried to get his side out there. Thanks for watching!
I got that same package of xeroxed stuff 30 years ago. I got stiffed bout damn near $300 worth of merch. But I had got two previous orders so they gain my trust but then it all fell apart. You live and you learn I guess. 🤷♂️
I have no hard feelings at all about it though. I’m actually a atheist now so it was cool to see he had pulled out of all the religious gobobbly goo also. 😏
I was a huge fan back in high school. Its sad because I am friends with or follow some of the people he attacks in the letter and they are very cool people still going strong fighting the good fight, especially Pastor Bob Beeman, he is the real deal. I don't knw exactly what happened to him though, so I don't want to judge any of them, including Roger, but he needs to find his way back to God his Father.
I seen them on the Human Sacrifice tour - was a free outide event - I am sure it was heard miles away. Sounds like he had some issues along with what he was put through.
Roger does a RUclips video series with another atheist I think it’s called something like “Drinks with Christians and a atheist” the Guy interviews all the old Christian music “hero’s” while having drinks. I thought it was supposed to be a debate the Rodgers was (3 I think ) weren’t cause they both are atheist. But they were very interesting. The only other one I watched was the drummer from the crucified one. He has Jimmy Brown on there, whole bunch of guys. 👌
I watched the first two. I would be more interested if it was about the history of the band instead of his thoughts on religion. Maybe they will get to it. Thanks for watching!
Got the same letter, my parents also tried buying me a white throne t-shirt and I never got it, got more letters later on and on and on until I heard nothing afterwards, I was really upset, YES, those letters your reading were the same as I got back in 1993. I've heard he's either satanist or atheist? Those letters pissed me OFF, I know he was hurting but you NEVER send letters like that to your fans. Some of those letters had ink, so I at least have Rogers autograph! Hey I didnt even get a small poster or anything, bummer LOL
Haha, sorry you didn't get the "abridged" poster! I only got this one envelope full of letters, I'm just curious if you got the same ones but sent individually. Thanks for sharing your story, I appreciate it!
Scan them! Roger spammed these out to many people, then no need to ask him for permission first. He's at peace with all of that and happy with his life now anyway. Let the truth be told!
LOL!! talk about one flew over the coo coos nest! Thanks for sharing bro! no matter how shitty life gets, it's not God's fault, we make our bed, ly in it! God will be there if we humbly and truthfully repent!!
I was browsing the youtube videos and suddenly see photo of man with the Sabbat shirt and Vengeance Human Sacrifice CD. This must be Real metal channel. And it is. Bought some Christian CD's some months ago, including orig. 1st press Human Sacrifice (5€), Barren Cross, Sacred Warrior, Septer, Lightforce, Guardian, White Metal Warriors compilation.... Some times when you go to right place the Xstian Metal albums can be had for reasonable money... especially when it's on CD. Those albums are usually huge nono for narrow minded (and stupid) Black/Death guys and many of common metallers just doesnt care. Blessed be.
Nice haul of Christian Metal there! Yeah, sometimes you can score those cheap if people don't know what they have; I have been lucky at thrift shops picking up some titles for $1. It seems like Christian Metal has been getting some more respect in recent years which is cool. I appreciate the kind words brother, thanks for watching!
I was all into Christian metal when I was younger vengeance rising ripped me off as well. Those bastards I was out $70 a CD, a shirt, cassette and a poster I believe after months and months of writing to the band. Roger personally wrote me back after how many trips to the post office with registered letters Apologizing and pretty much as this video stated, I never got a refund or my money back, etc.. I had more respect for black metal bands never ripping me off and being cool with me anyway just ironic that so-called Christian people were so corrupt as well, I never for, gave them for that.
I get it man, in the end people are people. I was ripped off by Blake Judd too so there are scammers all around. It is strange that some of the best interactions I've had have been with "evil" bands. 😀Thanks for watching, man!
@@n0s0luti0n thanks brother i’m into metal true metal I don’t know who that person is but we support bands. We love the music that’s all that matters these idiots need to be prosecuted. I liked that you had.inquisition my favorite band. anyway stay true.keep it metal take care. When I was into those other bands mortification and deliverance, was so much better musically cya hail
@@n0s0luti0n yeah bro one of the best black metal bands out there I’ve talk to Dagon a few times highly cool down to earth true metalhead, anyway take care inquisition for life hail
Sounds like Roger was a weak Christian. We all go through crap we may not think is fair but that is no reason to denounce the faith you supposedly held so true that you would make albums and teaching tapes about. If Roger truly was a Christian then he would have looked at things differently and possibly seen it was a test or growing opportunity. Instead he folded like a an origami swan. Perhaps he forgot the book of Job and what Job was put through. I prayed he would eventually come back to the faith but as far as I know he has not. I only ever had the double album that I got on a whim from a Christian Bookstore back in the mid 90's and I loved it. Be nice if he and the guys could bury the hatchet and put out some new stuff but only if he has came back to the faith. Just my 2 cents or whatever it is worth.
I thought I was a Christian back at the time when these were originally out, and needless to say, these were, pardon the pun, a GODSEND, I'm pretty sure I'm agnostic atheist these days, but I still love these albums, and I'll hold the 1st two against almost any secular band. I still listen to Christian stuf even tho I'm not one, I don't care what a band sings about as long as the music's good!
Do a Google search on Roger and you should be able to find another set of interview/letters where he lashes out against Bob Beeman, Doug Van Pelt, and his ex-wife. It is vitriolic with full of expletives and threats. Those were posted in 2007, so it is a little dated. I think he has some mental illness issues. It is really sad. I hope he can find his way back to God.
Too bad it took him so long to figure out what a bunch of fakes so many of the church people are, though the long letters seem perhaps meth fueled 🤣 Human Sacrifice and Once Dead are solid gold...... Should both be on anyone's list of top metal albums imo Die Happy sucked Love to help out with his Satan record (yeah I'm a musician too) but I think that we're both getting to old🤣 Only advice I have to him now is, low carb diet and avoid sugar 🤣
![COLOMBIA vs. CHILE [4-0] | RESUMEN | ELIMINATORIAS SUDAMERICANAS | FECHA 10](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/TDjN4W3yy1k/mqdefault.jpg)
I got the exact same packet! I ordered several shirts, the guitar instructional video and a Vengeance Rising iron on patch. I was so hurt to see how he has fallen away.
Man, you took a bigger $ hit than I did. I'm fascinated by the politics of that scene; people would just disappear and never be spoken of again. Thanks for watching man!
When the 3rd album came out - the one without all the Die Happy guys - I emailed him to ask him a question about one of the lyrics and say what a fan I was. He sent me back a polite letter explaining the lyric and I was thrilled.
Honestly, if I had to guess the guy probably did get screwed over but he also had a significant mental health episode. I remember talking to the lead singer of Angelica in a christian book store and he said that Roger was 'out there' but at the time teen me thought he meant it like, genius/eccentric/inscrutable. But maybe he was talking about something else...
As a kid I went between "Roger was screwed absolutely" and "Roger went crazy or was never a Christian." As we grow up we realize things aren't that black-and-white. I think Roger was treated unfairly by the industry and the church which exacerbated any mental problems, but if even a portion of the stories are true Roger had his own issues that were totally separate from the situation. Thanks for watching and contributing, Christopher, I appreciate it!
I’m sure there’s another side of the story.
This is the best and most informative info about the Roger saga. That letter is killer!
Thanks Ric! I hadn't seen anyone else talk about this and thought some people would be interested.
Man, that's AWESOME! Much better than a shirt, though I'd probably slap someone's momma for any of their shirts.
On a side note, Once Dead is really starting to become one of my all-time favorite records. Everything about it is great, but the riffs and solos are absolutely untouchable. And I can't think of anything that comes even close to the overall viciously dirty sound, style and vibe of this record. I listen to a lot of black/death metal and Into the Abyss is one of the heaviest songs about Satan ever laid to tape.
Anyway, great video on an epic piece of music history!
Thanks a lot man, glad you enjoyed it! That's very interesting how much you like Once Dead, it is my least favorite of the four (though I still enjoy it). The shirt would have been cool, but it would have been rags long ago and I still have this little piece of history.
I still love the Vengeance Rising albums. I wished and prayed that Roger would come back to the Lord and put out more Vengeance Rising albums.
I love them too, though Once Dead hasn't aged well for me. Thanks for watching!
Destruction Comes is my favorite! It’s raw and unhinged.
R.I.P. Chris Hyde
I heard he’s a Satanist humanist I don’t think that’s gonna happen man
@@ErWo75 I agree Destruction is the Best
Years ago,I was in a band(91-93)the bassist/friend,was a VengeanceRising fan.He wrote them,and recieved,what he called"hate mail"from Roger Martinez.That story always stuck with me.
Probably a similar thing to what I received. Thanks for the story and for watching Jeffrey!
Thank you for posting this! I've searched high and low for any traces of this letter to no avail, so this is awesome. I always heard stories about people receiving this letter and what the tone of it was, but I had never heard or read what was actually written in it before now
Glad you enjoyed it, Bill! It is funny, the 90s doesn't seem like very long ago, but since the internet wasn't prevalent yet some things just aren't documented. The other day I was trying to look up information on a record store I used to go to, and there is absolutely no trace that it ever existed. Glad I could preserve this letter. Thanks again, man!
I remember when Vengeance first came out. I wrote a letter to Roger and he responded multiple times with cassettes answering all of my questions in detail. Super thoughtful guy. I asked them to come and play a show in Minneapolis and put him in contact with a venue. They came to town and did a show and I met up with Roger for lunch and conversation. Very interesting guy. It was kind of funny afterwards because a buddy and I were hanging out with Roger and he showed us a video of a pyramid scheme he was trying to sign us up for. Melaleuca products. Lol. It was hilarious that he was trying to make money because the band was barely making ends meet.
And then a couple years later, I received that same packet. My brother was in a Christian thrash band called Crimson Thorn and I shared the letter with everyone in the band... We were very disappointed and bummed out about it. I'm a lot older now and don't believe the same things I did back then I had a personal awakening and Hope he has mellowed out as well.
I hope Roger still has his real estate business going and he has simmered down a bit. Super super intense guy no matter what he's doing and I just hope he's at peace.
Side note: when we went out to lunch with him he said he forgot his wallet back at the venue...lol! We planned on paying for his lunch anyway but it was kind of funny at the time. 😅
Getting you to pay for lunch and also trying to sign you up for MLM...sounds like quite the character! 😁 I'm a big fan of your brother's band. I saw them at a little fest here in Michigan in 94 and had them all sign the first CD. Thanks for sharing your story, man!
@@n0s0luti0n That's cool! Would that have been the Michigan mosh? I remember hearing about it because they didn't do a lot of out of town gigs at the time.
I still have my Human Sacrifice shirt... Although, if I recall, I may have purchased it at a concert. I'm glad you put the time into some of the explanation of what Roger was going through. It has always been one of those really mysterious occurrences in the white metal scene that left many of us perplexed and disappointed in the whole music industry.
That secrecy was a frustrating part of the Christian music scene at the time (I don't know if it is the same now). I went to a Christian metal fest around that time and one of the headliners was inexplicably not playing. I couldn't get any answers about that either. 😃 Thanks for watching and commenting, appreciate it!
Wow, man. What an outcome. Thanks for sharing. He needs prayer.
Thanks for watching!
I just came across this video by accident, and I'm really glad that I did. Thank you for putting in the missing pieces to a story I never got the complete version of. I remember hanging out with Victor Macias in Columbus, Ohio, in '93, and I asked him about Roger. He kinda clammed up a little and got really sad. He then started telling me that Roger was in a bad way and really needed prayer. I eventually got enough information out of him to get the gist of what was happening, but I never put it all together until I heard some of that letter. Roger did eventually contact me to inform me that he was starting a Church of Secular Humanism and making a rebuttal tape for every teaching tape he'd ever made. Wild. I actually went through a VERY similar situation in 2007, but I reacted a bit differently. I appreciate you taking the time to share this video. I'll check out some more of your content and give you a sub.
Sorry. I don't know if you even know Victor. He was the bassist for a band called Tourniquet.
Thanks Jerry, I am glad you got something out of this video. I'm surprised by how many people have responded with their own stories. Thank you for sharing yours! Were you involved in the Christian scene? Thanks for the sub, most of my stuff is just standard "dude in basement shows records" so no hard feelings if it doesn't interest you. 😃
@@JerryRoark777 I do know who Victor is but thanks. My friend was learning bass at the time and Victor was one of his heroes.
@No Solution I was the lead singer and sometimes guitarist and keyboardist for a Christian metal band called Golgotha from 92-94, and I disbanded Golgotha and started an industrial metal band called Crystmynd from 95 until I recently "semi-retired". I was friends with a lot of the Christian metal bands of the early and mid-90s like Tourniquet, Mortal, The Crucified, Iron Angel, Mortification, Bride, and Dominion. And I do enjoy some of your content as a music fan and collector of all kinds of things. I can relate to the "guy in the basement" stuff. My collection is just all over the house until I get moved and dedicate a room (or two) to it.
That's awesome Jerry, is any of your music available to listen to? I would love to check it out.
What a great video friendo... I'm really glad you posted it. I'd really like you to be on one of this years videos with Simon Karnes with me. I so hope all is well with you. I'm loving life and want you to do the same.
Great to hear from you Roger and happy to know you are doing well! It would be great to do a video with you and talk to you in person, just let me know when and where. Cheers!
Bless you Roger I must have warn out at least 2 or 3 tapes of Once Dead after they were irreparable with a pencil and scotch tape. I saw you all in ABQ when you guys showed up late and still played your set. You guys were my firstFavorite metal band that set the bar🤙 hope these days are better for you ⚡
I still have this letter. It was such an exciting mystery for me as a teenager at the time. My parents were frustrated by it, but I thought it was awesome, and I was sympathetic.
@@madkinski I never showed it to my parents 😃
Wow that second letter was really powerful, he sounds like Seen the Light!
I love this, thank you for posting. I loved Vengeance Rising, still listen to the first two albums often. Always thought he was nuts.
Possibly so, he gave us some great music though! Thanks for watching, man!
Thanks for posting this. I ordered a Burn Satan Burn shirt back in the early 90’s. Never received it. I had heard that Roger had left the church. I always felt so sad for him. I hate that all that stuff happened to him and poisoned his view of Christianity.
Yeah, obviously there are different sides to the story but it really seems like Roger got a raw deal. Glad you were interested Wes, thanks for watching!
I ordered one too that I never got..
@@bigphil3362 Did you get the letter?
@@n0s0luti0n I got a letter as well..I was mad about it cause I didn’t have much money growing up and I saved a long time for it..wish I would have kept the letter..
@@bigphil3362 I hear you, mine was a gift but I didn't have much money of my own either so I would have been angry too if it was something I saved up for. Glad I hung on to the letter, being a packrat pays off sometimes! Thanks for watching, Phil!
Thanks a lot for this video! I'm about your age and was a huge Vengeance Rising fan as a teenager, too. I'm from Germany and I remember a scandal in the mid-90s, when the "White Metal Club Germany" made the claim they had sent some money to Jimmy P. Brown II so he could buy tickets for the whole band and come to Germany and tour. Nobody ever knew what happened to that money and I only remember Jimmy saying that "everybody had their own story" which I thought was a very weak explanation and he probably just took the money and told himself it was "God sent".
You say "Once Dead" hasn't aged well. I have never really liked "Once Dead" because of its thin sound, even when it came out. Just recently my parents sold their house and I had to go and save my old CD collection, so recently I found myself going through all these old albums, and I must say that I still hate the sound on "Once Dead" but the slow tunes (and the slow parts of the fast songs) are still great and heavy. They would have deserved a better production! "Destruction" could have been great with a better sound AND some professional musicians because Roger wasn't able to pull it off all by himself.
In the end I dropped out of my Christian youth group and the Christian music scene. When I decided I wanted become a professional musician and study music in L.A., my old Christian buddies treated me as if I had turned into a satanist LOL I knew right then I had made the right decision.
Thanks for your story! Too many examples of that judgemental stuff in the Christian scene. I think that is why it was such a revolving door; no one could live up to the standards they set for themselves.
Interesting story about JB; through his recent activity online he seems pretty self important. Deliverance was supposed to headline a fest I went to in the 90s. They didn't show and no one would talk about why.
Off topic, but if you want some of that old Tourniquet sound check out Flood, Guy and Gary's new band. Fantastic stuff.
Thanks for watching, brother!
I too must be about your ages...
Only I look older!
Yes!
Talk more about it. And scan the letter!
Thanks
I knew Roger way back when. He actually came to a Bible study and lead a meeting. He was smart....knew his stuff. It is sad he went the way he did....but to each his own.
Yeah, I don't think anyone doubted Roger's intelligence, just some of his choices. Thanks for watching and chiming in, Keith. I really appreciate you and the other people who have shared their personal experiences around the story.
Most atheist who were formerly Christians know the Bible inside and out, it’s one of the main thing that allows you to become a atheist.
@@michigunsanta8680 blaming the bible is childish. there are many stories of fake believers in the bible. we are warned about this in the bible. so why is any body shocked when it happens.? pointing out hypocrites in the church does not absolve you of your responsibility to God. 2 timothy 3:7 says " always learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth". the bible does not allow anyone to get away with anything. everyone is accountable for their actions. all atheists do is make excuses. you become a atheist because you love your sin.
Nice try. Many people who are in the church sincerely left because they opened up their mind to the 99% of information that is out there that they ignored because they were worried it would make them question their faith.
By looking at science, biology, and common sense, we can come to a different conclusion. Trying to say that atheists love their sin and that's why they don't believe is a crock and I think you really know it.
@@racerx4152
I have a similar packet dated 4/23/93 and handwritten at top is July 6 '93., with the exception of the letter of him going off. I bought the Mulligan Stew shirt mailorder from the band when I was in high school and "Human Sacrifice" just came out. I sold it on popular auction website a couple years ago for $100. Got to meet Roger in 1989, once at MetalFest 1989 in Decautur, IL and a few weeks later at Cornerstone. Cool dude and the other guys were just great to hang out with. The promo photo, Roger was wearing a Die Happy shirt...which was a just a shirt logo at that point, becoming the band's name later. And I have that poster somewhere...with the whole band, not just Roger 🤪 Watching those realtor videos is a hoot though!
Haha, yes it is, I stumbled on those years ago when I was looking for any information about the Satanic album that never happened. That's really cool that you got to see the band in the early days, I wish I had but never did. The only one of those early big Christian bands I saw was Tourniquet a couple of times, but it was with the Luke Easter lineup. Thanks for watching and sharing your stories man!
Last I heard about Rodger is he's dying of cancer, so sad. Been praying for him. Great video, thanks for sharing!
I did see he had lost his hair, but I haven't been keeping up with his videos. Thanks for the info!
That's wild. I got the same packet around the same time. I had sent a letter to Pastor Bob about any new bands that were coming out. Somehow that letter ended up in Roger's hands and he sent that packet addressed to my father (though he didn't know the name, just put Mr. w/ last name) with a note to my dad about why he shouldn't be helping me support Christian metal bands, along with a note to me responding that he wasn't in touch with anyone in the scene anymore. And, of course, that stapled pack of rambling letters that were all over the place. It was hard to make heads or tails of it all except for the gist you laid out in the end of this video. I guess I must've thrown it out at some point though now I'm wishing I hadn't!
I have things I've hauled around for decades that I should have thrown away, but the silver lining is I kept this, haha. I thought these just went out to unfulfilled orders, cool to know how you got one too. Thanks for telling your story!
I used to play for Ritual. Roger was our manager and he ripped off our fans.
That sucks man. I heard some stories like that but just wanted to focus on the letter and what I actually knew to be true. Was this before he left the church? Thanks for watching!
I loved ritual I saw you guys in Colton 93 with living sacrifice maybe it was 94
I appreciate you reading the infamous “f-word letter”. My friend got that same letter and we read it together. Our reaction was a combination of empathy and uproarious laughter. I was 15 at the time, and had seen them on the Released Upon the Earth tour with George Ochoa, Mike Wagel, and Johnny Vasquez. It was in Phoenix, summertime, and quite unpleasant. I liked Roger’s unpredictable, outspoken, and confrontational approach to EVERYTHING, but I was a teen, alas. I think two things can be true at the same time, 1) The Christian music industry has been about making money 2) Roger had a genuine experience with God, was mightily used by God, made bad financial decisions, worked for a crooked industry, got discouraged, lost his ever lovin’ mind, faith, and was filled with shame of failure. That makes for a very bitter, jaded, and angry atheist/anitheist…or whatever humanist hat he wears. I can identify with losing my way and making terrible choices because of discouragement. My heart goes out to the man, but I also feel there is much more to the story than he has told.
That is a great encapsulation of the conclusions I have come to! My friends and I had the same reaction to the letter at the time. Like most real life situations I am sure there are no heroes, just varying degrees of human failure on both sides. That's cool you got to see them live, I am also a big fan of George Ochoa from his time in Deliverance. Thanks Owen, I really appreciate your comments!
New born Baby’s are atheist, you have to be indoctrinated into religion.
Wow. I got a letter from Roger around the same time but it was just hand written, answering a few questions I had. He's always been entertaining, a raving madman either as a Christian or a Satanist, but you can easily trace his downward spiral, which sadly seemed to begin with the dissolution of (the real) Vengeance Rising. Shame, since, Once Dead is still one of my favorite albums. These days, based on what interviews and clips I've seen, he seems to be doing much better (meds, therapy?) Back to a warm and jovial version of himself (yes, still an atheist). And yes, he is still promising a forthcoming Vengeance album, and this time, according to third party sources, it is legit. So, the story still is not over! Thanks for posting!
I watched the first two parts of his recent interview but got behind, I didn't know there were plans for a new album! Should be interesting. I'm glad he is in a good place now. Thanks for sharing and watching, I appreciate it!
I chuckled because I sent money for a T-shirt and one of his Bible training tapes (ordered it from the back of one of the VR tape sleeves). I received neither one. 😅 And I had no clue he sent out letters because I never got one of those either. 😮
I'm not even mad because I still enjoy the music and I still pray for Roger.
Man, you should have at least gotten a letter! Glad it didn't ruin the music for you, thanks man!
I'VE TWO ALBUMS OF THIS GREAT BAND
VENGEANCE ALWAYS WILL BE IN OUR HEARTS
The music will always be there, no matter what human drama is going on. We can be thankful for that! Thanks for watching man!
Wow! I can’t remember what was written in my packet but I got the exact same one when I was in my mid to late teens. Same cut out photo and all. I will pray for Rodger to come back to God.
I knew there had to be a lot of these sent out but in the pre-internet days I didn't know about anyone else that got one! 😁Thanks for sharing and watching, Marc!
This just popped up in my suggestions. Very interesting story. A friend recently reached out to him (like 2 months ago) for a podcast interview, and it became a nightmare of abuse, threats, constant badgering, etc. So he is still bad off.
Wow, I didn't know that. He has done a few videos recently that sounded like he was in a better place. Thanks for the info, Jeff!
Years ago, I was reading through a metal message forum, and there was a thread about Vengeance/Roger Martinez posted. Jimmy Brown from Deliverance jumped in the and was answering questions. Someone asked him what happened with Roger, and the gist of his answer was 1 John 2:19, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." I thought that was interesting coming from someone that knew him well.
I love Jimmy's music but probably wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him. 😀 I just clicked on your channel and wow! Were you a wrestling tape trader? Lots of cool stuff to watch, I'll be spending a lot of time there. Thanks for watching, man!
@@n0s0luti0n Actually, in my free time I run a Patreon where I systemically cover mma/kickboxing/Japanese pro wrestling from 1991 onwards. I also happen to have what is perhaps the world's largest collection of mma/kickboxing/puroresu/etc. My RUclips channel has a small fraction of what my Patreon does. There's currently close to 5000 events over there with about 15000 more to be added. As far as Roger Martinez goes, from all I've read I get the impression that he was a troubled baby Christian that was flung into positions of leadership way before he was ready for it. Sadly, this seems to be common in the Christian music world to put someone in the spotlight before they're ready. I also remember reading that Ted Kirkpatrick helped Roger financially when times were tough only to get dumped on by Roger, of course, I don’t know how accurate that is.
@@kakutogiroad1866 Speaking of American wrestling, Richard Christy of the Howard Stern Show had a lot to say about it in this prank call to an Internet wrestling show 🤣 ruclips.net/video/fqxvBzNblik/видео.html
Yeah Jimmy Brown is kinda shady himself from what I can tell. I looked at his facebook page once, dude is way out there.
Mom buying metal shirts for her kid. That's a fucking good mom right there. Also, I hope Roger found some help.
Me too, he was in a bad place obviously. And cheers to my Mom for buying me a shirt of a crucified hand!
Rog doesn't need help. Whatever he believes or does is all part of god's plan right? 😏
“Hey, if it jams it jams man or what have you!”
Wise words!
I got the 1993 letter, after buying some teaching tapes. I was a Junior in college, so had no funds, and didn't have a clear path to knowing how to reach back out to Roger to encourage him in what he was going through.
Relieved beyond words that he did sort things out in his life (he's posted videos of his mortgage business). I've accepted we likely don't see eye to eye on religion, but his being in a better place overall is still important. Much respect to a guy who's music I was way into back in the day.
Totally agree man. Going through those letters as a middle aged man was a lot different than as a young teen. I'm glad he came out the other side. Thanks for watching!
I listened to a lot of Vengeance albums in middle school & high school before i got saved! Then several years later got saved and spent years in different Christian churches and demoninations and have seen a lot of hypocrisy and clicks like high school and and snooty attitudes.I have also seen a lot of great things being done in some Churches too so i don't judge Roger for feeling the way he has or does.I also have had people close to me turn their back on me and betray me like family, ex-wife.These experiences made me closer to God than i was before because in The Bible Jesus had people that he was close to betray him too.He understands us better than we actually understand ourselves.Definetely praying for Roger and i still like all the Vengeance albums
Unfortunately humans are in charge of churches so they can go wrong. Roger seems happy now so I am happy about that. Thanks for watching, Jeff, and for sharing your story!
Yeah man, the shirt would have been nice, but I agree that you got your money's worth regardless! I'll be honest, I've been hearing the stories for years about how Roger had lost his mind, but I always wondered if maybe the "crazy" aspect had been played up a bit to rationalize away the fact that he had deconverted. No longer. He sounds like nothing so much as an old friend of mine who ended up killing himself. What a tragic story... I don't care what he believes now, I'm just glad he survived it.
Yeah, I hope he is doing okay. I hadn't seen this stuff shared anywhere and thought you and Scott would find it interesting. Definitely ended up being more valuable than a shirt I would have thrown away long ago! Thanks for watching Aaron, you are one of my RUclips idols. 😀
I followed this story fairly closely as it happened. I really don't think anyone was playing up the crazy thing to rationalize his deconversion. I remember people (including myself) calling Roger "crazy" in jest or disbelief, but the sad reality is he was honest about falling into drug addiction, and looking back on the story as a full grown adult, every single sign is there to indicate he was in very deep. I'm sure you guys have had some experiences trying to help a person who is deep into drug addiction, and one thing I have found is that the paranoia is very real. Poor ole Roger was done wrong by his wife, his church, his band mates, his record label, his peers in the Christian music industry, and pretty much everyone he ever met. He proceeded to do plenty of things that could reasonably lead people to declare him crazy. I remember that soon after these letters were written, he started up a Vengeance Rising web page that landed somewhere between heartbreaking and pure hilarious entertainment. It was loaded with slander stories of people he worked with in the Christian music industry, pornography, bazaar images of varies people such as Mother Theresa burning in hell, point for point rebuttals of his own lyrics, and promises of new music that never came out. If the internet would have been in full swing when this happened, this story would be the stuff of legends with vast volumes of content availabe.
In all the shock it was easy to forget that this was a real person. He seemed to have some legitimate grievances and unfortunately handled them very badly.
@@n0s0luti0n sadly some people are heavily screwed over in conservative Christianity due to human nature and Paul's unfortunate words about not taking the brothers to court certainly also play a part in it. It is a problem.
@@joenbjerregaard7816 I agree, the "keep it in the family" mentality is ripe for corruption.
I got the exact same letter from Roger. The first one and the second one sounds like someone who was experiencing a mental breakdown.
Agreed Todd, it is pretty shocking even now and definitely at the time. Thanks for watching and commenting!
I got same letter when I didn't recieve my t-shirts back in the 90s
I wonder how many of these he sent out? There must have been a lot of unfulfilled orders. Thanks for watching Gary!
wow damn what a tale
I was surprised this hadn't been shared anywhere before. Yay for being old!
Tourniquest wrote a song called "Bearing Gruesome Cargo", which is basically the sound track for Roger...
"This is why I am the way that I am
You know I'm carrying with me
Over twenty years of pity
My whole personality
Was formed by others, not me
When I look back on my life
One that's always filled with strife
I rode down a bad course
Nobody's fault but yours
My step always threw me right down the stairs
So forgive me when I do the same thing to you
I know it must seem like you're daddy never cares
But if you knew what I've been through
You'd do the same thing too
Well I can't make a move
Without draggin' all my baggage
My father always cursed
So forgive me for my language
Please excuse me for yelling
Pardon me for telling you to stop
Selling to me your God in Heaven
This is why I am the way that I am
This is why I am the way that I am
If I can keep this up for the rest of my days
I may never have to take responsibility
For my ways..."
Love that song, didn't know what it was about. Thanks Tracy!
@@n0s0luti0n to be clear...I don't necessarily think that Tourniquet wrote the song about Roger as much as they wrote it about people who think and live like Roger.
Hey man, I'm a huge a VR fan. And Rogers downfall is a subject I'm very interested in. Is there anyway possible you could make a copy of that packet? I would love to dive deep into it.
I'll work on it. I don't have a working scanner anymore but I will figure something out. Thanks for watching!
@@n0s0luti0n dude thanks man! I would so appreciate that if you get to it. Let me know the shipping cost.
@@n0s0luti0n Thanks man! I'm also very interested in reading the rest. Could even post the scans in a RUclips video and we could pause/read!
That is some crazy shit! Sounds as if Roger was having a full fledged meltdown and was sharing it with everyone on his mailing list. That is a priceless artifact of one man's descent into madness. Great video!
Thanks man, glad you enjoyed it! As a kid I just thought Roger had gone crazy, but with some life experience it is clear he was done wrong by people he trusted and was in a crisis. Glad he made it through.
Roger Martinez is in my prayers. I pray he will come back to God.
I wouldn't bet on it but we never know, do we? Thanks for watching, man!
I mainly clicked because Im a big fan of the Keep of Kalessin song by the same name (Perhaps named after this band?) and now am about to hear an interesting story I reckon lol
@@Zyborggian I never made that connection with the song. I wonder if it was a tribute, haha. Even though it wasn't what you were looking for, I hope you enjoyed the story!
@@n0s0luti0n Dude that letter was fucking WILD I definitely enjoyed myself lol thanks for sharing this lore bro.
1000 thumbs up, WOW! I just stumbled across this video and so glad I did. I actually saw Vengeance LIVE in southern California in 1991 with my death metal drummer Christian friend who attended a pentecostal church. I'm Baptist myself and born-again for sure, once saved always saved and felt in many ways in the 90's as Roger did in that letter. The organized religion and the (legalism) of so many churches pissed me off as they not only preached do's and don'ts and how we can lose our salvation, but went over the top with saying we need to speak in tongues in order to complete the salvation transaction and be filled with the Holy Spirit.
My drummer pal left the faith completely and and now renounces it altogether and it was that fake pentecostal, speaking in tongues so called church of goat herders that gave him the willingness to leave completely and now say that there is no God. Just in my own local Baptist church the assistant pastor and head elder both left their wives and prayed that God would expedite their divorce so they could remarry. I thought WTH is going on here? Seeing the phoney faith healers and TV goat herders, the two faced legalism and wannabe political awareness of Calvary Chapel turned me into a mad as hell seeker to find the Truth and who to listen to and who to avoid, call out and bitch slap if need be! I could go on all day about that topic.
But what i will say, is that the first album Vengeance Rising is great and the LYRICS are some of the most truthful and powerful of any and all Christian songs ever made! Roger, you're in my prayers and I consider you a friend. I just saw this video as it came up after seeing this one: (AHCWC with Roger Martinez) and I will say that my love, respect and faith in Christ, of the Bible, is stronger every day in spite of earthly circumstances as I know i must read and hear the Word daily with prayers and rely on God's grace and mercy for daily living as I have the hope of heaven. If anyone wishes to know which few preachers I know of who are solid, uplifting and real, just ask me.
A lot of organized religion is very disheartening, full of people who use it for power and to glorify themselves. I am happy for you that you have found a path that works. Thank you for sharing your story, Erich, glad you enjoyed the video!
Vengeance is my alltime favorite death metal band! Back in 89 I heard them and it really got me involved in Christian metal. I still listen to them! I had a chance to meet them at cornerstone and couldn't make it. I was sad Roger got deceived and led back to the world. As far as healing goes and why he got discourages is he went by sight and not faith. I've gotten healed and a friend with terminal cancer got healed recently. Roger got blinded by satanic demons and wr need to bind it and command it to leave in Jesus name. But vengeance is still an amazing band for us thrashers...I am semi famous and wear VR shirts live! Keep the faith!
I wish there was more openness at the time. We had Roger's story, and then nothing from the other side as if he didn't exist. Thanks, Marty!
Wow. That was nuts
Haha, yes it was! Thanks for watching, Ben!
He really sounded tortured. It's no surprise that he lost his faith. If only he had poured over the book of Job at that time...I trust that the Lord will lead him Home for good. He did for me.
I just realized that shortly after buying Released Upon the Earth I walked away from the church and all things Christian. Pretty interesting timing, considering finding recently that Roger did too. It took me 30 years, but I found my way back. I really pray that Roger does. 🙏
He does sound tortured. As a kid I didn't know how to process it and thought he was just crazy, now I have a lot more empathy for his state of mind. Thanks for watching and sharing your story brother!
I saw Vengeance Rising in 1992 in Dallas' Deep Ellum district. There was a club that I think doubled as a street church, mainly focusing on youth. I'm an atheist now and was not religious at all back then. I simply liked the band's music. I couldn't understand the lyrics, anyway. So, rather than wearing a Slayer or Megadeth shirt, I borrowed a friend's Whitecross shirt that was 2 sizes too small for me. I remember the band was very friendly, meeting the crowd, chatting with us and generally being good guys.
If I'd received that letter, I'd write back and say, "Dude, don't worry about the shirt. I hope your problems get resolved."
That is awesome that you got to see them. I wasn't that bummed out about never getting the shirt; receiving the letter felt like I was "on the inside" a bit, in the pre internet days. Thanks, man!
@@n0s0luti0n I remember the entire venue smelled like....candy. They used a smoke machine, so I think it was some chemical they used for the smoke. The entire place smelled like a Halloween festival. That part is vivid.
It was a good concert, though. Roger seems like a REALLY intense guy. I'm sure this was compounded by his life cratering around this time. There's a video of him in an office promoting a mortgage business. He's in a white shirt and tie. It looks like h's turned his life around. Good for him.
@@wulfbak the preview of your comment ended at "smelled like..." And I would have bet my house the next word was going to be urine. 😄 Roger seems in a much better place now, thankfully.
Yeah I went on tour with Roger in 92 for Released and he told about his issues with Frintline. After that tour, mentally he was a mess.
I appreciate the info Dave! At that time if there were any problems in the Christian scene no one would talk about it, like that person no longer existed. I had to wait 30 years but finally hearing more about the situation. Thanks for watching!
1993 is the year I graduated highschool. I was really into Vengeance Rising, Deliverance, Sacred Warrior. I pretty much got whatever Frontline/Intense Records put out. Whatever Pure Metal Records and R.E.X. releases, I was in a hurry to the Christian Bookstore. I'd buy Pastor Bob's sermon tapes through the mail, etc. It was called the "F word letter" I used to correspond with Sanctuary and such. I got issues with the evangelical community myself, from some BS I had to deal with over the years.
Sadly humans will fail us, sorry you had to deal with that. It was a special time with some great bands. My friends and I would get some strange looks going in to the Christian bookstore to check out the new metal releases, haha. Thanks, man!
Did you scan the pages and put them up somewhere to read ? I would be very interested
I have not yet, apologies.
I got the same thing. The letter wasn't as long, but some thing. I had ordered a VHS video and never got it
I've heard from so many people like you from doing this video...I wonder what the total dollar amount is of unfulfilled orders? Thanks, man!
Amazing, I would like to read the whole letter. Could you upload it on the web?
Since Roger is active online again I would like to get his okay before doing any more on the subject. Thanks for watching!
@@n0s0luti0n Really?
Where did you see him active?
@@drgimenez87 A channel called AHCWC, he is doing an interview series over there.
@soulkiss1001 Thanks man, I haven't kept up with that show, I will think up a good question!
@soulkiss1001 He mentioned having me on the show with him, but I never heard anything else after that. I asked a question on one of the shows and never got a response.
Crazy. What happened to Roger after all these years? I remember hearing he went off the deep end (obvi., after watching your video). I went with some friends back in the early 90s to see them live at either a church or school, I can’t remember, in north Texas, and I think it was about an hour north of where I live in Plano, something like that, maybe Sherman or something I don’t know. I’ll never forget the guys hanging out backstage and one of them was eating an apple, and I think we got to chat briefly with them and they were all pretty nice from what I remember.
Roger is doing fine now but firmly an atheist. My uneducated opinion is he had some personal problems that were compounded by his church and the Christian music business doing him wrong. I would have loved to see Vengeance Rising live! Thanks for sharing your story John, I appreciate it!
@@n0s0luti0n I was his best friend skate boarding was our love-i became a born again christian in '79-told him about Christ and he too became a born again -he founded a church in Hollywood and I introduced him to his future wife Ruby--lastest news as of today he is battling cancer-i don't want to be a around him anymore -he has threatened my life two times-he wanted to kill me -in a strange demonic voice he told me that he was going to slice me into little pieces of flesh--smh after all we have been through-i ended our friendship
Wow, my heart goes out to Roger...applause for his character in not being a thief of peoples money and trying to be a good human being and Christian. Obviously he reached his breaking point 😢
I'm sure the Christian music business didn't differ much from the secular one, no angels in this story. Thanks for watching man!
Greetings from Norway. Wow this was interesting to see. I'm not a huge fan of VR but I have a few songs from their first album on my playlist. Really like the song "Burn" and "Mulligan Stew". Say, are you a christian or nah? I'm not a believer anymore but I love metal and still listen to some christian bands like Deliverance, Stryper, Bride, Tourniquet.. Sincerely, Simen
I'm not a Christian, but I'm not "scandalized" by Christian themes. I'm not a Satanist either and I listen to a ton of Satanic music. Deliverance and Tourniquet were two of my favorites back in the day, along with Believer and Living Sacrifice. Just checked out your channel and saw you did a DT ranking, I'll be watching that. Thanks, Simen!
@@n0s0luti0nThank you so much. Yeah I love DT, one of my favorites. That ranking video has almost no views so I appreciate it bro! Subscribed.
As some one who was involved in the Christian music scene at that time one thing I can assure you is Roger definitely had some mental problems. I worked for Son Power productions and we promoted a few gigs with the original line up. I’ve been around some of the other bands in the scene that had worked with Roger and the consensus is is that Roger was extremely difficult to work with and seemed to put what money he would be making as first priority. I’ve been in contact with Steve Rowe of Mortification who Roger helped get signed and helped produce some records for, Roger kept saying that they owed him money. According to Steve, they and the label payed Roger as any other producer for his work. Roger then left threatening messages on Steve’s answering machine demanding a “finders fee” for getting them signed ( most of this is from an interview Steve did some 25 years ago but confirmed to me when I talked to him at a gig I helped do stage crew for.). As for the other members of Vengeance leaving and forming Die Happy, according to some interviews and the very few interactions I’ve had with them (I stress “very few”) the Once Dead tour was a complete disaster. The total debt expenditures exceeded $50,000. According to interviews from Pastor Bob and the other members, after the tour it was agreed that Roger would take on the name and all debt so he could continue with Vengeance as sole owner with all rights. Originally it was proposed that they just end the band and each member take on an equal share of the debt but Roger said no because he wanted the name and rights. When the rest of the band formed Die Happy is when Roger really got angry with them as he felt they “left him” for greener pastures.
The only face to face interaction I have had with the band was during the Once Dead tour. I worked on a gig in Hartford, Ct and boy was it interesting. Roger seemed kinda… creepy. That’s my personal take. The other members seemed like genuinely nice guys, especially Larry. But the other four members seemed to distance themselves from Roger. At one point the production guys had some one outside the venue selling tickets as the ticket window was a bit slow and most kids were buying at the door. Someone knocked the ticket seller to the ground and stole the ticket money (several hundred dollars). Roger found out and became extremely angry saying “you let someone steal my money” or something to that effect. The show went on Sacred Warrior was the opener. Vengeance sounded ok, Roger did A LOT of scatter brained preaching. Over all it was a very down night generally speaking. After the show Roger was preaching to some of the kids in a very haphazard way, making zero sense. They other guys thanks everyone and we’re very cool about everything but seemed very down. They seemed very drained, like they were kind of over the strain of things.
According to some interviews from former members after Roger’s “deconvertion”, they have speculated that Roger might have been involved in drug use prior to joining the band. Again, just speculation. But it’s been said he kinda just showed up out of nowhere. He was in a band with George Ochoa of Deliverance fame before Vengeance as they (Vengeance) originally had a female vocalist. He supposedly came to an open audition and kinda took over everything. And after that it was just assumed that he would be the vocalist. After that is when the “Roger is very difficult to work with” rumors started.
Most of the guys in that scene back then are no longer believers now anyway or probably weren’t either so make of that what you will. Those who are and are willing to talk about it all have the same stories. They all line up. Roger had problems coming into it, they got worse, Roger made some incredibly bad decisions, he got angry, made death threats (some to completely random people), became an atheist/satanist… whatever, everyone else just wanted to move on.
This is just my 2 cents based on interviews (some well over 20 years old), a some articles I’ve read and the very, VERY few direct interactions I’ve had with those directly involved. Take it for what you want. Believe me, don’t believe me. It’s ok. Vengeance made some great music and the Roger saga is crazy and incredibly entertaining but also incredibly sad no matter what you believe. Personally I side more with the rest of the band and others. They’ve said that they didn’t always make the best decisions either so… whatever.
Rob, thanks so much for sharing your stories. As someone who was just a fan at the time it was very hard to learn any real information. The church side wouldn't talk except to say "Roger is crazy" so Roger's side is all I knew. Then Roger seemed to confirm the "crazy" part with his hyping of the Satanic album that never happened. Your stories provide more of the picture. Thanks again man, I was really glad to learn all of this.
@@n0s0luti0n Hey, no problem man. This is a very deep rabbit hole and I definitely do NOT know everything. I don’t think anyone really does. Most of the interviews I mentioned are from Heaven’s Metal Magazine which I believe are archived. Roger has done some interviews in the last couple years and they all sound the same. He’s angry, people betrayed him, he blames God for the betrayal and subsequently doesn’t believe in God anymore basically because of that and won’t take responsibility for his poor decisions in life. I don’t think the band or anyone else save the record companies were trying to hurt Roger. The record companies are a business and well… business is business. They wanna make money. It’s been said before, “be careful what you sign”.
As for the other band members and people involved, they all say the same thing as I’ve stated previously. There’s even an interview with a drummer that worked with Roger on the yet to be realized “Realms of Blasphemy” record were he states he wants to forget he ever got involved with Roger.
“ I quit shortly after I joined which was 1998. As far as I know, there was no album recorded. But I don't know much about it if there was, because I just wanted nothing to do with that excuse called a "band" after I quit. I thought it would have been a great opportunity at the time I joined, but that faded quickly. I just don't like to get into this subject. This is one of those things I wish never happened and would love to erase that from any history ever!”
- Shannon Frye 2007 former drummer for Vengeance Rising
All I can say is no one is perfect, yes, even Christians. It’s been over 25 years. Time to get over it and move on Roger. 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
This was a great video. I’m still a believer (it’s about Christ not man!).
Thanks Timothy, I appreciate you watching!
I'm looking for for the white throne T-shirt my mom thru away 20 years ago! Still ticked off a little about that! But the look on mom's face when I use to tell her it was christian metal was priceless!! Like Annikan Skywalker Roger was turned to the dark side! I think the powerful words of revelation put into one of the baddest metal bands on earth had a lotta weight for Roger. I was blessed to see these guys twice. Once Dead⚡🤘⚡
Never got to see the band myself, I'm jealous! Thanks for watching Tom!
Vengeance was some raw metal back in the day!! Savory on the taste buds they were! I saw Crucified on their pillars of humanity tour as well! Those guys shredded!!
Some killler Christian Metal out there. Im a huge Deliverance fan.
Me too, they were the band that I first discovered. Weapons of Our Warfare was my first album. Thanks for watching man!
Vengeance Rising is killer. I used to have a good collection of Christian Thrash and DM. I need to recollect that stuff.
I got rid of a bunch that I wish I had held onto, kept the Vengeance Rising luckily. Thanks for watching Steve!
What insane bitterness! I can't help but speculate why his wife left him. Especially after what I've heard about his in-studio tyranny. I'm not defending those who ripped him off, though that is just one side of the story. His foul mouthed rant in the second letter sounds very similar to those of narcissistic drug addicted has been, Bam Margera.
Yes, there is a lot of blame flying around with no accountability. I am sure there are no angels in this story. Thanks for watching man!
I feel really sorry for Roger. Think what you will of religion, I understand that a lot of people don't understand it or just don't believe, but it DOES mean so very much, so very deeply, to so many people. For many, it's at the very core of who you are as a person and the way you see the world and all things in it. It's a travesty when other people and money (NOT God) ruin someone's views and their opinion of it. Even if you don't believe, you still have to understand how devastating upending someone's entire world and belief system like that would be. Fortunately, God never gives up on anyone, and His love is eternal. I pray that Roger finds peace in his life, and that he finds God again despite all that he's been though. Wherever he is, I hope he is well. Thanks for your music, Roger. No matter what, it meant a lot to a lot of people like me.
My wife ordered the same shirt for me as a Christmas gift and it never arrived. She got the cancelled check back and that was it - no letter or otherwise. :(
Man, you should have at least gotten the "f-word" letter! Thanks for watching!
I think you meant the first letter was from January. The second one you read was from July
Roger Martinez should not have put his faith and trust in man. He should never have followed man. That was his mistake from the beginning. No one promised any of us secular or saved a rose garden in this life. He shoukd have understoid that from the lesson of Adam and Eve! The only persons who were ever promised a rose garden by God, was Adam and Eve,.. and we all know how that went.! We live in a fallen world,.. man will fail you all the time! Roger should have put his faith and trust in Jesus Christ and maybe had in or two extremely close brothers or sisters in Christ! Don't follow man. Even Christian men always follow Christ!. We are told in God's word to guard our salvation with fear and trembling! Obviously Roger never did. I will always pray for Roger but his bitterness is from his own failure to see the failures of man! He needs to get back to God! And even if he walked 10,000 steps away, it's only one step back! Everybody needs to pray for Roger Martinez!
Well said
Please do a follow up video soon!
Thanks, will do!
The coincidence in the picture is that he is wearing a shirt that says Die Happy
Haha, it was staring me in the face and I missed it. Thanks for the help man!
WOW.
Larry, had you seen this letter before?
@@n0s0luti0n No.But there's more than one side to every story. Hope all is well.
I am sure there is. Heard a bit of your perspective on the Once Dead DVD. Take care and thanks for commenting!
And now, Roger has short hair, seems perfectly normal, and is a real estate agent.
The ending that none of us predicted! 😂
Roger’s second letter would make KK Downing blush!
(For those that understand that reference) 🤣
He definitely wasn't holding anything back!
@@n0s0luti0n
No, he wasn’t.
@@n0s0luti0n
I hope you scan the full packet of letters. Should be interesting!
@@ErWo75 This is a subject I'll revisit at some point for sure.
...and Joan Rivers 😁
Jeez. Honestly hope a book gets written about the whole white metal scene. So much secrecy and confusion.
There is a great story there if anyone could piece it together. If someone ever left the church no one would talk about it so they would just vanish. Roger at least tried to get his side out there. Thanks for watching!
I love vengeance rising I didn't know Rodger Martinez had fallen away but then again I do not believe in organized religion
I'm not bothered about the religion aspect, I just care about the music and we still have 4 albums to enjoy. Thanks, Mark!
Burn Satan burn was my baptized Song in the year 1989
A great song! Thanks man!
@soulkiss1001 yes and I Had a nice Talk with my Pastor about the Lyrics 🙂
@soulkiss1001 that was agreed upon🙂
I got that same package of xeroxed stuff 30 years ago. I got stiffed bout damn near $300 worth of merch. But I had got two previous orders so they gain my trust but then it all fell apart. You live and you learn I guess. 🤷♂️
I have no hard feelings at all about it though. I’m actually a atheist now so it was cool to see he had pulled out of all the religious gobobbly goo also. 😏
That really sucks man, I only lost out on a t-shirt that my parents paid for. 😃
I was a huge fan back in high school. Its sad because I am friends with or follow some of the people he attacks in the letter and they are very cool people still going strong fighting the good fight, especially Pastor Bob Beeman, he is the real deal. I don't knw exactly what happened to him though, so I don't want to judge any of them, including Roger, but he needs to find his way back to God his Father.
No judgements here either, I don't think it is possible to know the whole story. Thanks for watching man!
I received that same cut up autographed poster from him. Wish I still had it
He must have had a stack of them he wanted to be rid of! Thanks for watching, Giovanni!
I seen them on the Human Sacrifice tour - was a free outide event - I am sure it was heard miles away. Sounds like he had some issues along with what he was put through.
Man, I would have loved to see them back then!
Roger does a RUclips video series with another atheist I think it’s called something like “Drinks with Christians and a atheist” the Guy interviews all the old Christian music “hero’s” while having drinks. I thought it was supposed to be a debate the Rodgers was (3 I think ) weren’t cause they both are atheist. But they were very interesting. The only other one I watched was the drummer from the crucified one. He has Jimmy Brown on there, whole bunch of guys. 👌
I watched the first two. I would be more interested if it was about the history of the band instead of his thoughts on religion. Maybe they will get to it. Thanks for watching!
Got the same letter, my parents also tried buying me a white throne t-shirt and I never got it, got more letters later on and on and on until I heard nothing afterwards, I was really upset, YES, those letters your reading were the same as I got back in 1993. I've heard he's either satanist or atheist? Those letters pissed me OFF, I know he was hurting but you NEVER send letters like that to your fans. Some of those letters had ink, so I at least have Rogers autograph! Hey I didnt even get a small poster or anything, bummer LOL
Haha, sorry you didn't get the "abridged" poster! I only got this one envelope full of letters, I'm just curious if you got the same ones but sent individually. Thanks for sharing your story, I appreciate it!
Got the same letter.
I knew I couldn't be the only one, but it is cool to hear from other people who got it. Thanks, Erik!
I got a faded human sacrifice shirt
Nice! I'm sure if I got mine it would be rags by now, but even if it wasn't I would be too fat for it at this point, haha.
Scan them! Roger spammed these out to many people, then no need to ask him for permission first. He's at peace with all of that and happy with his life now anyway. Let the truth be told!
I plan to, Karl...time has gotten away from me and I have a busy summer but I will get to it. Thanks for the interest!
LOL!! talk about one flew over the coo coos nest! Thanks for sharing bro! no matter how shitty life gets, it's not God's fault, we make our bed, ly in it!
God will be there if we humbly and truthfully repent!!
@@2460joel I think Roger was done dirty by the Christian music industry, but wasn't an angel himself. Thanks for watching, Joel!
I was browsing the youtube videos and suddenly see photo of man with the Sabbat shirt and Vengeance Human Sacrifice CD. This must be Real metal channel. And it is. Bought some Christian CD's some months ago, including orig. 1st press Human Sacrifice (5€), Barren Cross, Sacred Warrior, Septer, Lightforce, Guardian, White Metal Warriors compilation.... Some times when you go to right place the Xstian Metal albums can be had for reasonable money... especially when it's on CD. Those albums are usually huge nono for narrow minded (and stupid) Black/Death guys and many of common metallers just doesnt care. Blessed be.
Nice haul of Christian Metal there! Yeah, sometimes you can score those cheap if people don't know what they have; I have been lucky at thrift shops picking up some titles for $1. It seems like Christian Metal has been getting some more respect in recent years which is cool. I appreciate the kind words brother, thanks for watching!
777 Jesus rocks..
Same here .
It's cool hearing from other people who got this letter. Thanks!
Yeah I would say you got your moneys worth...pretty cool
For sure, I am glad I held on to it all these years. The shirt would have been rags by now. 😃
Die Happy was a killer band
@@flrpitflrp1965 I haven't heard them since the 90s, so I should check them out again.
I was all into Christian metal when I was younger vengeance rising ripped me off as well. Those bastards I was out $70 a CD, a shirt, cassette and a poster I believe after months and months of writing to the band. Roger personally wrote me back after how many trips to the post office with registered letters Apologizing and pretty much as this video stated, I never got a refund or my money back, etc.. I had more respect for black metal bands never ripping me off and being cool with me anyway just ironic that so-called Christian people were so corrupt as well, I never for, gave them for that.
I get it man, in the end people are people. I was ripped off by Blake Judd too so there are scammers all around. It is strange that some of the best interactions I've had have been with "evil" bands. 😀Thanks for watching, man!
@@n0s0luti0n thanks brother i’m into metal true metal I don’t know who that person is but we support bands. We love the music that’s all that matters these idiots need to be prosecuted. I liked that you had.inquisition my favorite band. anyway stay true.keep it metal take care. When I was into those other bands mortification and deliverance, was so much better musically cya hail
Inquisition is great, I know many people claim to not like them now but you don't see anyone getting rid of their records. 😂
@@n0s0luti0n yeah bro one of the best black metal bands out there I’ve talk to Dagon a few times highly cool down to earth true metalhead, anyway take care inquisition for life hail
You're right. Die happy was not interesting.
Not at all. I haven't listened to them in years, but honestly I have no desire to, haha. Thanks, man!
Sounds like Roger was a weak Christian. We all go through crap we may not think is fair but that is no reason to denounce the faith you supposedly held so true that you would make albums and teaching tapes about. If Roger truly was a Christian then he would have looked at things differently and possibly seen it was a test or growing opportunity. Instead he folded like a an origami swan. Perhaps he forgot the book of Job and what Job was put through. I prayed he would eventually come back to the faith but as far as I know he has not. I only ever had the double album that I got on a whim from a Christian Bookstore back in the mid 90's and I loved it. Be nice if he and the guys could bury the hatchet and put out some new stuff but only if he has came back to the faith. Just my 2 cents or whatever it is worth.
I don't think any of the guys have any interest in getting back together, sadly. Thanks for watching and commenting man!
I thought I was a Christian back at the time when these were originally out, and needless to say, these were, pardon the pun, a GODSEND, I'm pretty sure I'm agnostic atheist these days, but I still love these albums, and I'll hold the 1st two against almost any secular band. I still listen to Christian stuf even tho I'm not one, I don't care what a band sings about as long as the music's good!
I listen to anything too, the music is what matters to me. At the time these bands were easier for my mother to take, haha. Thanks for watching, man!
@@n0s0luti0n Yeah I think I kinda pretended to be a Christian but I'm not sure tho, either but at least I stil have the great bands tho anyway!
yiiiiiiiiikes LOL
It was certainly a choice to send this to a teenage church kid. 😀
@@n0s0luti0n I think it was a choice to send it to anybody! Or even write it in the first place! LOL
Glenn Kaiser and Darrell Mansfield got really terrible letters from him back in the day
Did he have any relationship with them or was it random?
@@n0s0luti0n they were musicians with Rez Band and Darrell Mansfield band. They knew him
@@puddleglumsmusiccollection9151 I never heard that. It sounds like he was just striking out at everybody. Thanks man!
Do a Google search on Roger and you should be able to find another set of interview/letters where he lashes out against Bob Beeman, Doug Van Pelt, and his ex-wife. It is vitriolic with full of expletives and threats. Those were posted in 2007, so it is a little dated. I think he has some mental illness issues. It is really sad. I hope he can find his way back to God.
Thanks for the info, I will definitely search for those!
Roger sounds like Martin Luther railing on the pope and Vatican!!!!
Roger judges himself. Pathetic... He was just a kid so, I forgive his stupidity and ignorance
Once the original band left, VR sucked. No comparison at all. That band is killer
I love the first album, but Once Dead is my least favorite of the four. Thanks for watching!
Vengeance rising? More like self pity rising lol.
Haha, there is plenty of that in the letter.
Too bad it took him so long to figure out what a bunch of fakes so many of the church people are, though the long letters seem perhaps meth fueled 🤣
Human Sacrifice and Once Dead are solid gold...... Should both be on anyone's list of top metal albums imo
Die Happy sucked
Love to help out with his Satan record (yeah I'm a musician too) but I think that we're both getting to old🤣
Only advice I have to him now is, low carb diet and avoid sugar 🤣
Haha, maybe you can convince him to do it! I would have loved to hear what it was like. Thanks for watching man!
@@n0s0luti0n yeah he'd have to make all serious like Paradox Product of Imagination or something, as opposed to the silly sounding Mulligan's Stew etc