NOT gonna see it in theater but wait for reviews and just download stream for geek collector sake, like I have the fan version of David Lynch just for the sake of all the scenes. Denis refusing to give those at all I in return reject his supposed art shoved as it's the best ever than reality it's JUST HIS view & whoever thfk writer much lesser than the actual novels.
I can't imagine a satisfying Dune Messiah treatment that doesn't find a way to write its way back to a Chani on Paul's side, a grown up Alia, Duncan Idaho, and the twins.
If they keep the time skip between the end of Dune and the beginning of Dune Messiah, that gives plenty of time for Paul and Chani to reconcile (maybe show it in flashback or as part of a "how we got here" montage). Especially if they extend it enough that Taylor-Joy as Alia is believable (i.e., not a preteen).
The end of part 2 REALLY threw me off, i found it incredibly distracting. I also didn't like how during the water of life ceremony Chani was just outside talking shit like a high school kid. I don't know. It lacked the nuance that made her character interesting to me
It feels somewhat obvious to me that the note their relationship is on at the end of part two is deliberate set-up for having audiences get to understand Paul's actions THROUGH watching Chani get to understand them, probably more effectively without the distraction of the hurtling climax of part two going on anymore.
That was about the battle bro, she was pissed that he “died” and slapped him, Jessica says she’s sorry about Chani leaving and then he say she will understand and she does and join the final battle
@@ace3021 they are being pedantic. Paul's presience means he can see all the possible futures. See what can be as actions effect time and action. So no he can't see the future, he can see the futures, and all possible futures. The more data he has the better he can see. He is also awakened to his genetic memory. He can see the memories of all who came before him in his genetic line. So he has all memory and the ability to see all possible futures. So basically the ultimate superhero.
My prediction is that the majority of the next movie will actually be the holy war that is skipped over in the novel. It gives the film makers a lot more breathing room
That presumes more movies to continue the plot arcs of Dune Messiah and Children of Dune that are more crucial to the saga than focusing on the Jihad, which Herbert intentionally glossed over in lieu of character plot. The Jihad would be a repetitious pattern of a fundamentalist theocracy subjugating planets and killing all who chose not to bend the knee as it were. While accurate, it would cause many casual fans to hate the Atreides Empire faster than Herbert originally intended. It would rub many as being too close to ISIS and the Taliban in terms of intolerance and religious conservatism, leaving most viewers unsympathetic to any Atreides character afterward.
There’s no way for Chani to go. The planet now belongs to the Lisan Al-Gieb. I will not be surprised if the walk off ending is sidestepped and Chani is in place at the start of Messiah as Paul’s conscious
The ending of part 2 was meant to make us feel for Chany because we are supposed to relate to her view point the most. When Paul told Jessica "she will come to accept it eventually, I have seen it," we were supposed to take that literally. That he saw them together again in the future with presciencent sight, and we should expect that to be the case in the 3rd movie. It's okay to feel like the ending was a cliffhanger though. I'm sure Denis would delight in fooling many like that, but don't be surprised when it's not even an after thought that they are together in the next film and their conflicts are they haven't had children and they both wish they could just leave everything and live a simply life in a stiltent.
@@sullir9397 If "The ending of part 2 was meant to make us feel for Chany[sic] because we are supposed to relate to her view point the most." then it was an epic failure. As a motion picture *Dune Part 1* and *Dune Part 2* are epics. As adaptations, they are better than most coming out of Hollywood (faint praise that) currently, but only middle of the pack for adaptations of *Dune.*
IMO the movie was pretty clear that Chani would eventually understand Paul’s actions. Or at least both Paul and Jessica both saw a future where Chani would eventually side with Paul
I suspect Villeneu's version of Messiah to borrow some elements from Children of Dune, such a lady Jessica actually playing a role, and maybe some of the things about abominations. At the very least I expect the timeline being moved so the events take place more than 12 years later, so they can have an adult Alia instead of a child. That by itself wouldn't necessarily affect the plot a lot, since for the main plot of the novel it doesn't make much of a difference whether Muad'dib's jihad has been going on for 12 years or 26 years by the time the plot picks off.
I wonder if they'll address her romance with Gurney in Messiah. That would be interesting as it would allow Jessica to be further fleshed out in the sequel.
@ttrestle Have you seen Saskia Reeves's portrayal of Jessica in *Dune (2000)* -and -*-Children of Dune (2003)?-*- Those are- That's the gold standard for the role to date.
@@RodneyGraves Saskia Reeves was only in the original Dune miniseries from 2000. She wasn't available for the follow up Children of Dune miniseries in 2003, so the role was recast with Alice Krieg portraying Lady Jessica instead.
I'm pretty sure he's going to include them. They were out of these two movies mostly because they focused more on Paul's journey but the Guild is essential to explain the wider world of Dune
I just remember that part in the beginning when the conspirators are meeting and Irulan is grossed out by the spice gas coming out of the navigators tank sitting next to her.
It was stupid not having Chani and Paul's first child killed in the attack on Sietch Tabr. Of all the changes they could have made that one would have made the most sense. It would have been a stronger motivation for taking the water of life than the one in the book (Gurney turning on Jessica). Not having Alia kill the Baron has long implications. As does the great houses and the Guild not accepting the Atreides Gom Jabbar. Paul threatens to destroy spice production forever but they ignore him to set up the Jihad in the next film but that's not what happens in the books. Paul's Jihad isn't about ascention to Emperor but ascension to being effectively a God which is why it is so distasteful to Paul as he knows people will die in their billions to make him into something he doesn't want to be.
I'm not sure why Villeneuve compacted so many years into just a few months. It would have been better to have Alia as a child to show how the changes in Paul were less sudden.
@@samuraichicken2315Okay, remember Lord of the Rings? In the book, years have passed between Frodo inheriting the ring and him fleeing Shire. But in the movie it feels like at most a few months. Movies and novels are different media. Dune 2 must appeal to audience who have not read the book, otherwise the movie may flop and there will not be funding for Dune 3. When it comes to telling a story on screen for the general audience--not hardcore Dune fans--I'd trust Villeneuve's judgment.
The kid dying at the seich was one of the only things I thought that it made sense to take out. Even when reading the book it didn't seem necessary. Wasn't his name even Leto as well? Maybe I missed something but I felt like the first kid didn't matter all that much to the rest of the plot
@@samuraichicken2315I think "Alia as a child" is precisely why they condensed that section of the timeline. Filming with kids can be pretty rough for various reasons, from what I've heard.
I have a feeling the vision that Paul had of Chani holding a bloody blade will be what he is going for in the films sequel, I think he wants Chani to kill Paul instead of being his wife. Which means no children of Dune.
I like the streamlined story here. Dune is a dense read and it makes things more accessible to people who don’t know what we know. Lynch’s Dune ‘84 is the perfect example. Trying to fit the book into a two hour film is impossible without sacrificing b and c plots. I’m happy to see Denis given free reins over the next instalment, regardless of if it is made in one part or two.
Dennis has 2 movies totaling over 4.5 hours and he still failed to bring the full complexity of the political battles to bare. Lynch has one 2.5 hour movie and got most of it in there
That's why you watch the 4 hour directors cut of David Lynches Dune, it is still my favorite by far. I think Lynch did more visually and narrativly with his 4 hours then Vilinova has done.
@@kennethferland5579 I saw the original at the cinema and loved it. The long form version is much better than the theatrical release. While it does a better job of telling the story more in line with the book I much prefer Denis' vision. That's probably a choice of stylistic vision. Brad Dourif's Piter is my favourite part of the original and it took me a while to shake off the fact that David Dastmalchian had such a minimal part. I'm hoping that a director's cut exists or is in the making for a later release. Which part or parts do you think would have made the new film a richer experience?
@OrenPanitch a more faithful adaptation would require a tv series like GoT. Cramming all the complexity and bizarreness of the novel even in 5 hours of movie would likely be very messy for the audiences. And Villeneuve's movies being expensive blockbusters, they had to follow a storytelling that could be understandable and appealing to a large audience. The fact that Lynch's movie ended up bombing at the box office would suggest that probably the approach of including everything was not ideal. Ultimately, book and film are different media, so I expect some noticeable differences in an adaptation.
Without a doubt my dude. Can't lie Dennis has kind of sabotaged himself because if Paul and Chani aren't together then how are Leto II and Ghanima meant come into the story? I think Dennis has changed the story so much to a point where the films may not even be redeemable. Might as well pull some sort of multiverse explanation for it to make sense.
@Amun_Proxy thats why when Paul drank the water of life he said to Jessica that 'she will come around I have seen it' so in the third I'm sure something will happen and she will come back to him easily fixable. Not everything has to be exactly like the source material all the time cause how boring would that be
@@jaredloveys9617 you're not wrong but in this case the books are still superior to the film. If Dennis made a extended cut of the film then yeah maybe that would be arguable but he literally just deleted any cut footage due to his own ego, and the worst part is that they were bits that could've explained more to the story and it's characters.
@@jaredloveys9617I'll trust Villeneuve to decide what changes to make and which ones to not make when he writes a novel that kickstarts an entire genre. Until then, it's *FRANK HERBERT'S* Dune, not some limp wristed Frenchman.
You have to expect some deviation. Movies are just too different from books. A step by step adaption of Dune would not work on the big screen. The main change was Chani which was understandable because even with her pointing out Paul's exploitation of her people, many in the audience still thought that he was a hero. So yeah...media literacy is sadly lacking in our society.
Adaptions never fully follow the source material. You can change things so long as you’re changing them for the better, and the Alia womb change was one of those changes that made the film better.
I’m fairly certain Chani is already pregnant probably with the twins but maybe with the first ill fated first child. I too was disappointed with Chani’s arc in Dune two, but in the second viewing it seemed clearer that she didn’t leave as a scorned lover. She clearly had other reasons that drove her departure. I can think of several that would align with her continued love and support for Paul and am confident DV has/will figure out a way to realign the story arc. However, I also am open to deviations from the books specific story line, especially if it generates new and novel stories for expansion of the franchise based in the incredible and fascinating Dune universe that DV has established with so much verisimilitude. More worm surfing too, hopefully 🪱🏄♂️🌊 🌞
Without Paul and Chani, you can't have Dune Messiah or CoD. Sometimes, my wife gets overwhelmed with life, and she hops in her car and goes for a ride. Replace that with a sandworm.
After the first two movies I'm pretty confident that Villeneuve will stick the landing on Messiah. The relationship between Paul and Chani isn't necessarily irreparably damaged. Chani did storm off, but after some time to reflect and possibly a discussion with Jessica, she could well return to the fold. The story needs her too. Alia is a little more problematic, but as our esteemed host points out, they could stretch the time jump to the point where Paul is older and Alia is an adult. I think all the fundamental building blocks of the story are still in place to make Messiah work. We do need to see more (or even some of) the Spacing Guild though.
@@janmajer4662 THIS. I feel like most people just totally missed that part or something. He literally says to Jessica "she will come around, I've seen it" or something along those lines.
@@smoovadatious2356 Yeah, there isn't really a space for discussion about that, so I find it really weird that people argue about whether she will come back or not
But then what was the point? To tease the audiance with them breaking-up as a couple just to drive up interest in the 3rd movie? I'm reminding of the pointless scene in The Two Towers where Aragorn fights some Warg riding goblins and is dragged off a cliff and Legolas and Gimili think he is dead for a few minuites and the movie is doing all the somber music and stuff untill SURPRIZE he caught a branch on the cliff face and survived, plot continues as if nothing happened. It's bad anime filler episode pointless. Meanwhile the Audiance is all "I walked past a poster for the 3rd movie to get to this theater, which has Aragorns face on it, I know he aint dead, don't treat me like an infant". Note that I have no issue with Chani being made into a mouthpiece for channeling Herberts own meta narrative, that is a creative choice with a clear purpose. But her storming off in aparent jelousy is just pointless drama for the sake of drama.
I thought his change to the character Chani were nonsensical and made the character very unlikable. I also was not a fan of the condensed timeline in the latter half of the movie. Overall, while the second movie was okay, I was not a big fan of his treatment of the source material.
It left a bitter taste in my mouth and I've been upset and annoyed about the whole thing. It's becoming political too, as these things always do, with people claiming you're a sexist and bigot if you hate the changes made. Mark my words, Denis is going to make Chani and Alia kill Paul in the 3rd movie, and just go full on into fan-fiction. He's going to become possessed by the Baron and require two strong independent women to kill him and bring freedom, peace, and love to the Imperium. And also they'll be lesbians together, cause why not?
Chani is made so much weaker in the movie for the changes. Chani being more sceptical is great. But chani flipping from honeymood to exwive dynamic is pretty bad. And zendaya's limmited acting range doesnt help. Chani being both supportive of paul the warrior and resisting paul the prophet be way better then her just switching when he is dragged into prophethood. She is even shows being aware of al these things. Kinda sad. Maybe danny has plans but i am sceptical
Very disappointed about these discrepancies and the way the baron, the beast and Fayed met their ends. Alia not born and Chani seemingly betrayed really angered me, seemingly all done to set up another movie that I will not go see.
@@jevinday yeah, I mean the book literally ends with Jessica assuring Chani that Paul only has eyes for her, that while a concubine, she will be remembered as his wife, that’s literally the last line of the book. Chani also 100% accepts that Paul’s marriage to Irulan is entirely political
@@hamishsewell5990 yeah she exists to support and love Paul and doesn't have nearly as much independent motivation It works better in book form when you are balancing so many different motivations at once; but for a film, I think keeping her the same as the book would have been a complete waste I think adaptive choices here are smart if not obvious
The movie deviated so much from the book that I wouldn't be surprised if Princess Irulan ends up becoming the mother of Leto II and Ghanima in Part III, but at least Duncan Idaho will return.
That would be terrible. Leto II and Ghanimas ancestral Fremen memories are a pretty big point of what makes them special. Ghanimas name itself is Fremen for "spoil of war". Irulan as their mother would make no sense.
@@NerdCookies I'm hoping Dennis won't lead the story of Dune Messiah end in a "happily ever after" in an attempt to subvert expectations and make this "adaptation" more of a reimagining than an accurate adaptation of the source material.
Given the 12 years gap before Dune and Messiah, I don't think it should be too difficult to reconcile the plot points. Chani has all the time to come to understand Paul's actions and return to him to play her crucial role (maybe she'll be he mean to show the viewers the impact that the jihad had on Paul). Alia being a somewhat supernatural creature could be used to justify her fast aging if the timeline is maintained. To be honest, I thought that having the strange child in the third act of pt.2 would have not worked well on screening and turned off many viewers. Also, probably also practical reasons of shooting schedules with a child actor on desert locations abroad.
Honestly, I think Dune works best as a TV series. There's just too much for a film, even if that film is multiple parts. Too much was cut. The Children of Dune miniseries was great.
They won't. She won't go crazy in this path. Paul has prevented many tragedies by choosing to take the water of life two years earlier than the path in the books. If Chani is pregnant, their son would survive. Chani wouldn't become his concubine. And most likely wouldn't convince the twins. Therefore she wouldn't die in childbirth. In the book, Paul sees two paths. One where his sister kills the Baron Harkonnen. And one where Paul approaches the Baron himself. And just like the film, when Paul approaches the Baron, the vision depicts Paul saying "Hello Grandfather." So we're watching Paul choose the other path in the books. He's avoided many tragedies. But has lost Chani's love. Once grown baby Leto is revealed to be Paul's only son and heir, Irulan will have him hunted. And probably Chani too. Which means Paul will have to save them. But not before being stabbed by Chani. Which we saw in Paul's first vision after being exposed to spice for the very first time in part 1. Now that all bets are off, the story will be completely unpredictable. And it will be glorious.
In the books Bene Gesserit can access all the memories from their mother's genetic line only, meaning all the personas of her ancestors both male and female, but not the memories of her father's ancestral line. Since Lady Jessica is the daughter of Baron Harkonnen, that is how Alia - Jessica's daughter - could be possessed by the Baron's ego memory, but would not have access to the memories of any of her father's - Duke Leto The First's - ancestors. Only the Kwisatz Haderach can access the full genetic memory of the ancestral lines of both their father and their mother, and with it pretty much the sum total knowledge of humanity across many millennia.
Changing the medium (in this case book to film) there will changes to the story. We also have the benefit of hindsight that Frank Herbert didn’t have while writing Dune and its sequels. While there is staying accurate to the words of the book as written, I think it’s more important to keep faith with the themes and message of the story. There are also the limitations of the mediums to consider to include the logistics of production. Some plot lines will have to change or even be cut in service of the story as a whole. I’ve heard writers referring to this as “killing your babies.” Some plots will die so that the story will live. So far I’m satisfied with decisions that have been made and excited to see how this adaptation will develop!
Film tech caught up years ago. You don't have to "kill your babies."any more.(And what a fucked up expression besides. ) Plays, and musicals used to have intermission. So everyone could go to the bathroom and get snacks. Maybe we should go back to that.
@gregorygreenwood-nimmo4954 Thanks for the correction. The spirit of my comment is the same. You could have said "kill your cats" couldn't do it. And "killing your darlings "is only slightly less messed up.
@@christophersandidge8257 I for one hold that *Dune* would best be served as three movies as broken in the novel: Dune (bildungs Roman) Muad'Dib (becoming Fremen) The Prophet (becoming Mahdi) That is part of why the Sci Fi Miniseries ( *Dune (2000)* and *Children of Dune (2003)* ) are superior adaptations while being lesser works. As CinemaSins continually demonstrates, no movie is without sin.
Spoiler Alert - What if Chani is already pregnant w the twins, and she continues her trajectory as a growing adversary of Paul's, perhaps being conflated in some way w another character in Dune Messiah, in any case acting as some kind of lynchpin for Fremen resistance to this holy war that Paul is now spearheading - Herbert wanted to clarify that Paul should not be viewed as a hero, and Villeneuve's Chani seems maybe the best vehicle now to take this point further
I went to see Dune 2 a few days ago and had to maintain a 'suspension of disbelief' from the deviations from the source material. I enjoyed the movie for what it is; A particular interpretation of a very rich story-arc.
I think I liked it more the second time because I was able to let go of a lot of the expectations and appreciate it's strong points. At the end of the day it's a film that excels visually and emotionally. You see it, you hear it and you feel it. The story however is basically a 30,000 foot view of the major themes without really penetrating the story. You kind of feel it as an itch in the back of your mind, a hunger for something that wasn't quite there.
With all the departures from the book, I am not expecting to see any extra factions that might belabor the point when it can be driven home with less on screen. while the guild and mentats are essential, as we already know who they are. But the Tlielaxu or the Ix won't really need coverage unless you're looking for more baddies to smite. While Scytale, and somewhat Bijaz have their parts, they aren't required (in my opinion) to drive this story to a conclusion and I do think the series can still be a masterpiece so long as the ending has pretty much the same outcome. If the Ix become some big deal it will raise my eyebrow.
I was rather surprized that Alia was so cut from the movie. For one it has compressed EVERYTHING in the first two movies to under 9 months, which is very compressed. It also makes it harder to integrate her in another movie. The dumbing down of Paul threatening to "nuke the spice fields" as his means of rising to power and then the Freeman just jumping in spaceships to go on a holy war really puts a major hole in the plot, one which should be obvious even to viewers of just the film.
You are meant to feel tension of the situation. Remember, this is Hollywood.. Chani will come around as Paul has said. We all know the truth of the matter. Anyway. We've all read the novels. That's all that really matters. The third movie will put everything right to some extent. Should be interesting.
Lets just take any recent franchise and its fans compensating for bad storytelling by saying after each movie, "Oh no no, they'll fix it in the next movie." "Oh they'll address it in the next movie." OR "You bigot racist you just hate!" Well yes I do just hate but if the storyteller aka director starts changing major aspects of the story of Dune and is planning on making the second novel I don't just have concerns it will no longer be Dune Messiah. I'm more than willing to be happy to be proven wrong. The two Dune movies are beautiful to look at and I don't hate the cast, love some of it, but Chani was character assassinated, that IS NOT Chani. Alia is IMPORTANT! She kills the Baron. And if they ever made Children of Dune... but I think they already broke that possibility with these two movies. I have many thoughts and points about these two movies that I don't have room for here and I do like some things about it but...Christopher Walken as the Emperor, I just can't, and at one point he almost slipped into the Walken Persona. Why not Mike Myers as Emperor, seriously. Great video by the way! I will hold back from ranting about Dune 2. Keep up the great work! Children of Dune Spoilers: I just want to see Alia completely schizoid when she is possessed by her grandfather the Baron. I want to see a proper Children of Dune in IMAX. After credit scene Leto II , 10,000 years later, in full worm form. An old man can dream cant he?
I think that Villeneuve might have to help us understand what Paul's now fully awaken powers made him see. the path he walks in Messiah is not the one he wants but the one he must to avoid even more disastrous results. Chani will understand that and try help him stay grounded. also I believe that Shishakli, Chani's friend played by Souheila Yacoub will be back as... Scythale the face dancer.
It was not necessary for us to understand what he saw, only that what he saw was the only way in which him and his mother will get to survive and get back at the Harkonans
The deviations from the book may bring other changes but they probably won't affect much of what happens in Messiah. After taking the water of life Paul says, when referring to Chani "she'll come to understand, I've seen it". Before the duel Chani says to Paul "this isn't over yet", meaning that she wants to know why he kept her in the dark when it comes to the decisions he ended up making. So one can conclude that they'll get back together. I like what they did to her character, for all the reasons you've stated. She loves Paul deeply and hence rejects the religious fanaticism that surrounds him. At first I was upset about the change to Alia because she's one of my favorite characters from the books, and I really wanted to see her as a toddler with an adult mind 'doing the things she does' in this adaptation. But now, having seen the film a few times, I actually love it. Even though we don't see her as a toddler, they still managed to capture her creepiness and fanatical devotion to Paul. Keeping her in her mother's womb meant that someone else had to kill the Baron. I'm glad they made Paul do it, because seeing Muad'Did storming into the Emperor's throne room in full jihad mode and stabbing the Baron in front of everyone was brutal. Muad'Did has enough Atreides, Harkonnen and Corrino fire power to bring spice production to a halt. Even though we don't see the Spacing Guild in the final act of the film, one can conclude that they'll have to comply. Villeneuve subverted our expectations and gave us a new way to experience Dune. So no, I'm not concerned about the potential changes to Messiah.
They'll have to make up. They might have Chani joining the group that leads to Leto II becoming to worm God, and that's how she gets the insane amount of spice needed to turn the twins into pre-born.
In all honesty, while I find Dune Part 2 to be a visually beautiful movie, the status quo as it exists at the end of the movie effectively precludes anything approaching a faithful adaptation of Dune Messiah or Children of Dune going forward. Chani is unrecognisable in her movie manifestation compared to how she was depicted in the books, so much so that vital aspects of her beliefs and world view have been actively inverted. The way she storms off in what is frankly a petulant huff at the end of the movie causes all kinds of issues with the plot of any future adaptation, most obviously with issues surrounding exactly how the immensely important characters of Leto the Second and Ghanima will even be born at all. Either Dune Part 3 will deviate so much from the source material that it really will be a Dune Saga adaptation in name only, or we will see some sort of drastic attempt to course correct at the start of the next movie which will cause plenty of its own problems. If Chani simply goes back to Paul between movies that is a huge characterisation cop out, especially given the big deal that was made of her walking away from Paul at the end of Part 2, but if she doesn't then the plotline of Dune Messiah simply can't happen. If Chani doesn't conceive the twins then how are they born? Surely not to Irulan which would make a mockery of both their character arcs out of the gate, and if they are written out of the story like Chani and Paul's first child was in Dune Part 2 then you simply aren't adapting the Dune Saga in any meaningful way anymore. If Chani is already pregnant with the twins at the end of Dune Part 2, then that makes a huge mess of the timeline of the twelve year long Fremen Jihad in the books and makes it extremely unlikely that Irulan would even be able to find Chani in the deep desert Seiches, still less spike her food with the contraceptive toxin that indirectly leads to Chani's death in the books, and if Chani doesn't die in childbirth then Paul is not traumatised by her loss and never walks into the desert in the manner of blind Fremen after he loses his physical sight to the Stoneburner, and so never goes on to later return as The Preacher to condemn the corruption that has built up within the religion that has arisen around his cult of personality - it breaks the entire narrative of multiple future novels. What worries me is that it is at least possible that none of this is of concern to the studio because they have no intention of making even a minimally faithful adaptation of Messiah in Dune Part 3, and just as Dune Part 2 deviated much more from the source material than Part 1 did, so Dune Part 3 will include far more sweeping and extreme deviations than Part 2 did. Given the fact that the dangers of being Pre-Born were largely glossed over in Part 2, and Gaius Helen Mohaim called Paul instead of Alia 'abomination' in the final scene of the movie, and it was Paul and not Alia who killed the Baron, I suspect that what will happen is that elements of Paul and Alia's character arcs from Messiah and Children of Dune will be swapped, and it will be Paul who becomes possessed by the Baron's ego memory in the movie in order to complete his character's rewritten arc, causing him to undergo a simplistic heel-turn into an unambiguous villain, and it will be Chani - possibly in the guise of The Preacher reworked as a deep desert freedom fighter against Paul's tyrannical regime - who has to lead the fight against Paul's brutal rule, probably aided by a reworked Alia as an 'uncorrupted' (read - not male) version of the Kwizatz Hadrach and a Lady Jessica who has seen what Paul has become and seeks redemption for birthing a monster into the cosmos. Paul is defeated, either renouncing his power or having an end like Alia's in the books and finally taking his own life to free himself from the Baron's ego memory after being bested in battle by Chani or Alia (instead of Leto the Second defeating Alia in his pre-God Emperor of Dune larval stage as happened in Children of Dune) and Chani goes on to free Arrakis from the 'colonial influence' of off-worlders and returns Dune to the Fremen people as an extremely on the nose anti-colonial finale note to the trilogy. It would horribly miss the point of Frank Herbert's writing, but it would fit nicely into the sort of DEI approved, ESG money compatible plotline that we see so much of in Hollywood these days. I can only fervently hope I am wrong.
Bro, you have a terrible level of paranoia and I am horrified by your scenario. Yes, according to the scenario we have now, we can say that major changes will be made in Dune Messiah. If it had been under another director's hands, I might have considered what you wrote, but Denis practically worships these books, especially the first 2 books containing Paul's arc. I don't think he would kill and betray the story so much.
@@kranatsnah We will just have to wait and see, though I would remind you that in the movie business directors - even very famous ones - do not have a free hand but are ultimately answerable to the studio and its money men. They control the purse strings, so they have the final say. In order to get any part of his vision realised, Villeneuve has been forced to make compromises as we have already seen, and there is no reason to suppose that won't continue to happen going forward.
I feel that Jessica and Stilgar were completely different characters when you look at part 1. Jessica was so weak and a cry-baby, constantly stressing out. And Stilgar was a true leader, someone you wouldn't want to mess with. But in part 2 Jessica was a strong character and Stilgar just came across as the comic relief.
I wouldn't call Jessica in Part 2 strong so much as extremely sinister - her character was pretty much villainised, going from a devoted mother into a borderline insane schemer more than happy to wager her only son's life in order to pursue Bene Gesserit prophecy and simple power, and using the Voice to force sceptical Northern Fremen to follow Paul out of fear instead of genuine loyalty, preying on the weak ones who fear her first as she says while she mutters to her unborn daughter in one scene. She is nothing like the character we saw in Part 1, seemingly having had a wholesale personality transplant very much for the worse after taking the Water of Life, and is absolutely nothing like the genuinely strong yet also compassionate and principled woman she is in the source material, who doesn't forget her own values or sense of identity immediately after becoming a Reverend Mother. Chani is also never has the sort of adversarial relationship with Jessica we see in the movie in the books. I agree completely that Stilgar was reduced in the movie from a highly competent and pragmatic leader to a comedy relief fanatic in a way he wasn't in the books. In the source material his shift in beliefs is more subtly drawn, with his fall from being an ally and true companion to merely a follower being something Paul himself laments as diminishing who Stilgar is as a person and a leader. In the movies they make Stilgar a joke, going so far as to directly reference Monty Python's The Life of Brian at one point when Stilgar says that the fact that Paul is too modest to admit that he is the Lisan al Ghaib is further proof that he is the messiah. It was yet another character change I cannot support.
Given how much time DV spent preaching to us and far he deviated from the source material already, I think he is just going to toss his copy of Dune Messiah in the bin and write his own story.
I have a bad feeling we are not getting the twins. I think he is telling Pauls and the Bene Gesserit story. He is using Chani as a narrative device and has no intention of setting up the universe for more films to follow.
This is the answer. Chani will be the leader to assassinate Paul that took place in Messiah instead of introducing tons of new characters - we already saw a vision of her killing him when he doesn't expect it in Dune part 1.
@@JCDenton3 This would be out of the blue and has no build up, the visions in part 1 are already explained and were completely simbolical, they are not enough to make this make sense in Messiah. Also, this would be too big of a change from the story to be resonable
The spacing guild and Duncan’s golem will be major world building in Dune part 3 . I believe that has been Villnueve’s intent when he decided there would be a third part.
Same as the books. He's spent lots of time with the Harkonnens in part 2. They are pretty much out of it so time now to dive into the Guild, the tlielaxu and maybe more the corrino
Having read the books while enjoying Denis films of Dune. Part Two took a lot out of my total enjoyment. I don't think this will bode well for further Denis Dune films.
I do agree with the inclusion of the other political bodies and world building point. The rest of it can be done with “movie magic” I think. My only gripe with the dune films is how some elements are over so quickly and simply. Sometimes a bit more meat on those bones would be better.
Chani reeked of angry liberal gen-z’er. The young, new school Fremen that know everything vs the old dumb religious Fremen who have sacrificed everything for their entire lives. I think Chani doing flips and shitting on full grown Sardaukar pretty much solidified that Chani will be the true hero and Paul is the actual antagonist. I couldn’t wait for part 2 and I’m not really looking forward to part 3.
So far the adaptations made sense to me as a nessercery simplification, but you're right that Chani and Aliya were simplified so much they became different people. Simplified politics may be nessercery, but it does lose some of the original. Frankly, you would need a movie twice as long as we got to do the full plot of the book justice,
I don't care, frankly. Part 2 was so different, and deviated so far from the book. What happened to Thufir? Gurney's mistrust of Jessica? The Weirding Way? Why no Alia (a bullshtako 10 second cameo doesn't frelling count)? No Space Navigators or proper space-folding? NO BIG REVEAL OF THE MOST ICONIC THING?!?!??!?!!? Seriously, we only saw the mouth and PATCHES of the sandworm!!! Christopher Walken looked tired and bored, like he didn't wanna be there. And what the fùck was that THING in the Baron's chambers in Part 1?!? It was like IT Chapter 2 all over again. I'm not watching the full video, I'm sorry, but i don't care about Denis' Dune anymore. I got this Special Edition package for Part 1, it looks like the Box, has space for Part 2, as well, cost me THIRTY FRAKKING DOLLARS. Now it's a waste. The Sci-Fi Channel miniseries is the definitive version for me.
The cringiest scene in the movie when Jessica forced Chani to heal Paul, mixes tear with worm bile, Jessica says "desert spring tears" 😂 😂 😂 I thought my God.. Was this inspired by Pokémon movie ending when the Pokémons tears free Ash from stone?? If part 3 writing is anything like that scene, it's doomed. When current day writers think they can out do the original author it's always a recipe for disaster. Game of Thrones is the best example of that
I think you make many great points and our hopes are that Denis will remain faithful to the Dune saga, as he has done for the most part. In the Lord of the Rings film adaptions, major characters such as Glorfindel and Tom Bombadil were left out entirely in service of the overall story line. I see many similar themes between Dune and Lord of the Rings, and whatever Denis decides to do in altering the source material has my full support, as Pater Jackson had with adapting LOTRs.
Given how open the end of the second movie was I feel like there's plenty of room to tie up all these loose threads in the first act of the messiah movie while using them to set up the proper messiah story and themes. For example, I can see the spacing guild coming in and stopping the attack of the landsraad or submitting to Paul because the prescient navigators know that Paul can destroy the spice.
The Guild is transporting all the Fremen for thouse attacks, the plot seems to want us to forget that they have a monopoly on transport and that thouse ships the Fremen jump into and rise into the sky with can't travel bewtween stars on their own.
First: Just a brief thanks, for these vids. Quite the talent for comparing/contrasting the books and this recent film adaption. Concise and engaging. I think V is dong an excellent job with his poetic licence. Obviously , you need to adapt for the short and long forms of film and literature respectively and I think he is walking the tightrope well thus far, whilst still being true to the story. Arguably the best adaptation of the Dune universe.
Hmm. I now wonder if "Dune Messiah" won't be "Dune Messiah Part One" and "Part Two," with most of "Part One" being expansions on things referenced but not explored in the novel. More about the holy war and the complications it brings up, the character journeys that bring them to where we meet them at the start of "Dune Messiah." On the whole, I think I liked the changes in "Part Two." We already have some investment in Chani from "Part One," even if you haven't read the book, so putting her as the mouthpiece for "following this man as a messiah is a BAD IDEA!" makes the message land harder. Especially as her and Paul's romance develops, having Paul's lady love be the one saying he shouldn't be the messiah is more powerful, and gets Herbert's point across. The omission of the Spacing Guild creates a wrinkle, but also opens the door that Paul has to use force to make his usurpation of the Imperial Throne stick, so he HAS to give the order that starts the holy war. It's an oversimplification, but a lot of people reading the book question why "The Voice From The Outer World" can't just say "Hey, guys, if you could not rampage through the universe killing people in my name, that'd be great." The various changes and shifts in focus in "Part Two" show something I'd always kind of believed: if Paul uses these messianic prophecies to get the Fremen going, he's not going to be able to get them to stop. Fanatics are fanatics because once you wind them up, you pretty much have to just let them wind down in their own time.
Villeneuve is making Alia a far greater villain than in the books ; he is preparing a confrontation between Alia, Chani (and the twins ?), maybe Paul and Irulan's future infant, and Feyd and Margot's child (as a secret antagonist). Brace yourselves, fans, for we will have a Dune's Messiah, but "Rise of Skywalker" style, with a "mothers and children" family war...
Whats it like being so miserable that when someone makes something good you trash it? You trash it with 0 evidence or even a sound theory? Pretty pathetic
@@mherrj You can like or dislike something without acting "miserable". I don't say the changes Villeneuve made are bad in and of themselves, I am speculating about the conclusion that this deviations may lead to, in the end. Yes, I have some fears, it's true. I am not a hardcore fan, I have read the books, I like to speak about the Duniverse, yet I don't see the "genious" in such changes.
If you chose to read the book, than choose to read the title sequence "based on" etc etc Yes would've loved to seen a demon toddler roaming about. But after baby goot & baby yoda; frankly I'm glad DV didn't baby it up in that manner
Agreed. And having a talking womb baby was creepy and I think worked well for the pacing of the film, as a time-skip of several years could be avoided.
Leaving out the spacing guild was the biggest let down of the sequel, particularly given villeneuve’s enchanting portrayal of the aliens in “Arrival”. I feel this decision left the film absent of the mystique I had hoped for.
Excellent analysis, as usual. There is NO excuse for these films to not incorporate all of Frank Herbert's details of how the Dune universe functions. It was done in less time and very clearly by the 2000 SciFi miniseries. DV just wanted his own "vision" of Frank Herbert's universe to take precedence regardless of how it changed the story and its nuances.
I love the mentality of "I love X so I want to make it into a movie. But I want to change this, this, and this" and yes I'm aware of the changes you have to make from one medium to another, such as book to film, but those aren't the types of changes we're talking about here... Just make an adaptation of the thing you supposedly "love"...I don't get it...
I think the easiest way to have Chani come back around to Paul is revealing that she was pregnant at the ending of Part 2. This may be symbolized by her never taking off the blue scarf which was stated to be a symbol for love in the Fremen culture of the movies. She may not love him as much anymore, hence the scarf being relocated from her head to her arm, she can't bring herself to take it off fully because she may have already learned she was pregnant.
I guess the movie holds up, i kinda liked it, i would've preferred to have Alia take out the Baron and could've done without Chani's despicable behavior. It's too bad the movies failed to capitalize on Prana-bindu training which focuses on precise control of nerves and musculature. In the book, this gives practitioners near blinding physical speed in combat. This is why it was the Fremen who coined the term "Weirding Way" as they believed they were seeing magic. This was an exciting part of Dune's close quarters-combat and becomes even more so with the introduction of the evil Honored Matres, an all-women group who kill with their feet. (fast unblockable kicks). The movies fumbled the ball on this.
Also, something to be... concerned about: Villeneuve said he doesn't want to do the rest of the books. If Denis isn't interested in at least completing the first trilogy, then there's no reason for Leto III and Ghanima to be born. The entire story could be ended by Villeneuve's take on Dune Messiah, a kind of big period to punctuate Herbert's core message. So instead of that cabal working against Paul in the book Dune Messiah, there's Chani, leading the "secular" Fremen in opposition to to Paul, kind of like those of the Fedaykin who were in opposition to Alia's regency in Children of Dune. You could still see the cabal working against Paul, but now you also have Chani. And she and Paul won't reconcile at the end. They might both be dead. Or a similar ending to the book only there's no twins while Paul still [spoilers]. So I guess we'd better be ready for a vastly different Book 2 adaptation. I'm interested to see if Jason Momoa can pull off Hayt. Assuming even that's still in Villeneuve's Dune messiah adaptation.
I can hear them already typing how Denis changes is perfect and will have no consequences , we just need to trust in Denis and not question lmao . what ever happened to Beware of charismatic leaders and don’t blindly follow people. The irony.😂. ChAnI wAs gReAt …!
I appreciate what Villeneuve has done; but there is some that I don't agree with and even don't like. However that's to be expected with an adaptation of any book, or (especially) series. I think the best stories are those that try to stay close to the stories, whether history or fiction. As always, thank you so very much for the videos.
Adaptation means change. Alia is changed because a timeskip killed the pace of a movie (that doesnt happen.when reading) and Chani was changed because Herbert himself said readers didnt understand the book. Vileneuve stayed close to Herbert intentions instead of the text. You can tell Denis is a fan, however Messiah will be complicated with this changes, lets.wait and see what he does to solve this
He can just make Messiah set more than 20 years after part two. That would solve the Alia problem. Then he would either just have to age Paul up a little bit or fall back on the geriatric properties of the spice. I have no idea what he is going to do about Chani at this point. Nothing would surprise me. Since it's unlikely he will go any further than Messiah, I wouldn't be surprised if he went ahead and made changes at the expense of the plot lines in Children and GEOD. If that's the case, then I wouldn't be surprised if he went ahead and made Irulan the mother of Paul's kids and then had Chani lead an insurrection. I have also resigned myself to the very real possibility that the Guild and the Tleilaxu will be left out altogether. Or maybe, if they give him a proper budget (like 300 million for example) then he might go all out unless he is now one of those directors who are into subverting expectations just for the sake of subverting expectations (which may be the case). Here's another thing that bothers me. All of the Fremen ended up commandeering Saudarkar ships to go off and have a space battle. No foundation was ever laid to explain how the Fremen would just be able pilot spaceships without any training and then steer them off into war (immediately after just having fought a huge land battle that appeared to have lasted an entire day). I don't even understand why DV decided to make it so that nobody accepts Paul's ascendency.
his rationale for the changes to Chani means he didn't believe in Timothy's acting ability to portray the changes to his own character over time AND/OR fully buys into woke oppressed/oppressor, break-up-the-family neo-communism like the rest of Hollywood. Probably a mix of both. A terrible change to a great story.
I don’t know if it was the directors intention, but having never read the books, the movie style causes me to seek out the source material to find out more details. I think it is good that the movies are different in that way. No 2 artists colour their work the same way
1- concerning Chani, for "modern times" do you think Denis' changes to her character was done to fit the I don't adhere to religion nor simp for a man world social media like to portray? 2- for Denis' two part movie that's nearly 6 hours long how does David Lynch's version manage to cram so much more of the Dune world into a 2 hour and 15 minute movie? 3- could Dune Messiah potentially be a two part movie?
1 - I think they changed her character to make her serve more than one purpose. In the book she's a believer just like Stilgar. For the film they made her the face of the skeptics and Stilgar the face of the zealots. Personally, I appreciate the change. Its more interesting having a love interest whos torn between loving Paul the man and hating Paul "the prophet". I'm curious where this goes rather than the predictable believer she is in the book. 2 - Dune '84 is clunky as all hell because of it as well as Lynch's unique vision. Outside of sentimentals and book purists, I don't know anyone who really likes Dune '84. It's cheesy at best and the book deserves a better adaptation. 3 - i think Villeneuve and Spaiths (however it's spelled) are capable enough writers to make it all work. I'm more worried about audience interest in a third movie that's supposed to have less than half the action of part 2 - think having Return of the Jedi coming before Empire Strikes Back.
In a world where spice consumers routinely lives over 500 years, they can chose to look as young as they want... The problem is Chani, she dies age 28 in the books, and that makes it imposible for her to give kids to Paul, while Alia looking anything older than 8yo on the movie
I think Denis is saving the Guild navigators for Dune Messiah. Perhaps he will give us young Alia in flashbacks. The death of Duncan was framed in such a way that I think Denis intends to use it over and over again in Duncan's ummm "returns".
Watching the 'Dune Part 2 Denis Villeneuve Breaks Down The Sandworm Scene' video from Vanity Fair's RUclips channel, Villeneuve explains his reasoning for changing Chani as his own attempt to correct the Story of Dune as Frank Herbert wrote it, to be more in line with Herbert's own criticism of his own book - when he said he was disappointed that more readers didn't get the 'beware the faith you place in your leaders' sentiment. The problem with this, is that Herbert wrote Dune Messiah as his way to correct and explore this theme; and by forcing it into the Dune Part 2 film Villeneuve has muddled the ending of the first book which is a Hero's Journey story with a traditional Love Story as a subplot. It doesn't matter if, in hindsight, Herbert wanted for their to be a clearer tertiary message of beware leaders, etc. it simply isn't in the first Dune novel as it was structured and written. The Messiah worship theme and tension is explored perfectly well in the Dune and Dune Messiah books through the character of Stilgar. In Dune, Stilgar is the main measuring rod for the Freman becoming belivers in Paul's Divinity; then in Dune Messiah it's through Stilgars eyes that we see the tension, the questioning, about this new future. Let's also not pretend that Stilgar doesn't have every reason to believe in Paul by the end of Dune; the Prophecies may have been put in place by the Bene Gesserit, arguably to be used and manipulated by their order as required, but they were foretelling the coming of the Kwisatz Haderach which was their ultimate goal, which Paul fullfills, or something very close to it. Paul's power is very real and orders of magnitude greater then anything else in the know universe at this time. However, by trying to make Chani serve this purpose, and so early in the story, it has: distorted Stilgar's story, cheapened Paul's heroic triumph at the end of Dune, spoiled Chani's character and story, beside, supporting and grounding Paul's character, which ultimately ruins their love story in the events of the first book and potentially its tragedy in the second book. The end result is they have wasted alot of precious screen time developing this additional story arc for Chani which, at best, will be correted in the third film, which is supposed to be covering Dune Messiah's story, further wasting more precious screen time in that movie, so we can explore one of the primary themes of Dune Messiah in the films covering Dune's story, so we can ultimately have a third film which primarily exists to explore this theme which is now in the first films...wait, this way leads to stagnation and is not part of the Golden Path hahaha. P.S. ramblings aside, I still quite liked these films, just book fan gripes about deviations from the source material. P.P.S love the vids @NerdCookies ❤
well said dude , 100% agreed , its like they dont understand the pacing required to tell the story and/or they dont trust the audience enough , in which then you cannot tell a story with a surprise if the whole story is about ruining the surprise XD
I can't stand Chani in this movie maybe I am the only one but don't like her at all shes so different from the book that's one of the most annoying changes
Yea I REALLY didn’t like the liberties taken with the movie. Nobody watched the movie for Chani/Zandaya. But they forced her into as much as they could. And where the F was Aliya??? I was looking forward to a toddler killing the Baron with the voice and a Gom Jabbar. But no. We got….Paul stabbing his throat. Feyd didn’t use any poison on his blade. Where was count Fenring and Thufir??? Just. Ugh. It’s like he ran out of money.
Also, Thufir with Feyd Rautha (agreed standout player in Part 2, Austin Butler!) and The Baron. Easily would be more engaging than 6 minutes of establishing that Paul & Chani kind of like-like each other [giggle but in Chakobsi]
part 2 just fell flat for me, and man was i hoping it would be outstanding..part 1 felt better crafted more put together.. but part 2 just fell flat and rushed. im still a huge fan, but this one didn’t gel for me :(
It's a rare adaptation of a beloved fantasy or sci-fi that fully pleases its book fans. Some of the key figures and plot points have to be sacrificed. Villeneuve seems intent on capturing a full sensory experience of the world as well as remaining true to Herbert's challenge of the messiah / hero trope. We're not going to get every thread or every important character from the books, but I think so far it's a fantastic adaptation and an equally promising as a trilogy.
If they're going to keep the ending of Messiah open-ended with Chani bearing Paul's children, Paul and Chani are obviously going to be together again one way or another. Whether Chani just gets lonely and desperate for Paul or she's persuaded into following Paul again, she's sure to reunite with him and still have her tensions with his power. It's an even bigger question on if Chani will still die from childbirth or a different cause or survives to take care of the kids which would be tricky to factor in on a potential Children of Dune film whether Villeneuve or someone else directs it.
I'm really hoping that Villeneuve does something gutsy like skip Leto and Ghanima and have Paul take the Golden Path. That way it really sinks into people's psyche to not trust cults of personalities because not only would Paul have been the cause of 62 + billion people dead but he'd also be the same person who lived for thousands of yeas oppressing people but also breeding them into being invisible to even those with psychic abilities
While I am a big fan of Dune - I was strangely unmoved by part 2. So here's hoping that Part 3 can breath some life, excitement and resolution back into the story.
In Dune Messiah, there are underlying scars in the relationship between Paul and Chany. In the book it's probably most due to their lost child, Leto II, and Chany's inability to give him children, but there is another part of it where Paul's religious prestige makes it awkward because she doesn't see him as the messiah in their relationship with each other, to her mind he's a leader, and she is his woman, and she will defend his honor in that regard if the situation demands. The relationship became awkward because his religious stature interferes with everything in their home life, whereas they would both prefer to go back to their time when they journey'd together in the desert, sharing a stiltent, and life was much simpler. When the 3rd movie comes about, there will be a significant time lapse, and their relationship will already be just as Paul predicted, that Chany will have come to accept what happened and they will be together. The Fremen in her will accept him as her leader, but she will still be adverse to the religious stuff, and for that reason will not take a part in court, and their life together will be private. The scars in their relationship won't be from a lost child, but from the trust lost because of the schism that took place in part 2. Not having children will still be a conflict. Drawn up as such, I don't think there are any real ramifications from how part 2 ended and how it relates to the story of Dune Messiah. I think people are overthinking it, and will see how simple it is when they see it when comes out, when ever that will be.
I agree. A good director who says he loves the book but has ruined it by changing who the characters are and how they fit in the story but in the present and future. He had all most 6 hours between the 2 parts and a huge budget. Spicediver's cut of David Lynch's movie is better and that's based on flawed interpretations also. Even the SyFy miniseries is better in many respects.
Stupid? Why would you want an adaptation to do exactly like the book and what others have already done? The changes aren’t even that big of a deal because they can obviously still bring it back around to the books. It’s just adds more drama and isn’t a big deal…It’s crazy imo that you’re disappointed over part 2 because of a couple small changes…it’s one of the best sci fi movies out there! I couldn’t imagine what you’d be pleased with lol
@@garycarter6773ruined? How!?You’re saying that it’s no longer possible to bring it all back around to give us the same ending in part 3? lol yall are dramatic! It’s obvious the way part 2 ends is setting up to make Chani’s and Paul’s fate more bittersweet when she’s dies and he leaves…Denis’s has a childhood passion of Dune and he’s created beautiful masterpiece that’s like nothing we’ve ever seen on the big screen. The attention to detail on so many levels (all looked over because it’s not from the book) showing he loves the story of Dune just as much as the most passionate of fans so I can’t wrap my head around how anyone that’s a fan of dune can’t just sit back, trust and enjoy! I swear people act like he’s ruined everything from a couple changes that aren’t really changing anything because it’s a trilogy and ITS NOT OVER 😂
The changes for the adaptation make sense to me, and I feel confident Messiah will be a faithful adaptation. The only change that I don't like and I genuinely feel that it could have been included is Mentats. Seems they were completely cut for part two. I love the changes for Chani as she's a more interesting character with agency and doesn't just go along with Paul. She questions and challenges him - i think this feeds into the idea of her grounding him in humanity.
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NOT gonna see it in theater but wait for reviews and just download stream for geek collector sake, like I have the fan version of David Lynch just for the sake of all the scenes. Denis refusing to give those at all I in return reject his supposed art shoved as it's the best ever than
reality it's JUST HIS view & whoever thfk writer much lesser than the actual novels.
Thanks! You broke it down for me nicely. I don’t agree with the larger deviations, and I miss Max Von Sydow, but haven’t see part 2 yet.
The AI voice over is so obnoxious. Why must these otherwise good channels inflict this on their audiences?
I still think the Director didn't do on screen Alia because he didn't want to risk having an uncanny valley nightmare baby
There are many reasons he may have omitted her. Occam's razor says you're right
finding a good child actor to properly emulate how weird alia is... pretty difficult i think.
leaving her out was better. I think talking Womb Alia worked out better.
Plus the movie already has to cover soooooo much
@@Calypso694I honestly didn't mind that aspect.
I can't imagine a satisfying Dune Messiah treatment that doesn't find a way to write its way back to a Chani on Paul's side, a grown up Alia, Duncan Idaho, and the twins.
Hayt has to return.
Well in this movie he said he foresaw that Chani comes around to him
If they keep the time skip between the end of Dune and the beginning of Dune Messiah, that gives plenty of time for Paul and Chani to reconcile (maybe show it in flashback or as part of a "how we got here" montage). Especially if they extend it enough that Taylor-Joy as Alia is believable (i.e., not a preteen).
@MikePhilbin1966 They foreshadowed it in part 1. When Duncan is stabbed he is down but then he rises up again, rising from the grave...
@@andrewoutcalt7625 I thought it was pretty obvious she was going to come back, she was just understandable hurt by Paul's choice
The end of part 2 REALLY threw me off, i found it incredibly distracting. I also didn't like how during the water of life ceremony Chani was just outside talking shit like a high school kid. I don't know. It lacked the nuance that made her character interesting to me
It feels somewhat obvious to me that the note their relationship is on at the end of part two is deliberate set-up for having audiences get to understand Paul's actions THROUGH watching Chani get to understand them, probably more effectively without the distraction of the hurtling climax of part two going on anymore.
It'd also make sense for Paul to prefer Chani feeling betrayed at the moment, so she safely removes herself from the chaos he just unleashed.
Paul basically said she'll come around...and he kinda...you know...sees the future.
That was about the battle bro, she was pissed that he “died” and slapped him, Jessica says she’s sorry about Chani leaving and then he say she will understand and she does and join the final battle
Prescience is not “seeing the future”
@@ace3021no, no it is not
@@rob4926 u mind to elaborate why ?
@@ace3021 they are being pedantic. Paul's presience means he can see all the possible futures. See what can be as actions effect time and action. So no he can't see the future, he can see the futures, and all possible futures. The more data he has the better he can see.
He is also awakened to his genetic memory. He can see the memories of all who came before him in his genetic line.
So he has all memory and the ability to see all possible futures. So basically the ultimate superhero.
My prediction is that the majority of the next movie will actually be the holy war that is skipped over in the novel.
It gives the film makers a lot more breathing room
That presumes more movies to continue the plot arcs of Dune Messiah and Children of Dune that are more crucial to the saga than focusing on the Jihad, which Herbert intentionally glossed over in lieu of character plot. The Jihad would be a repetitious pattern of a fundamentalist theocracy subjugating planets and killing all who chose not to bend the knee as it were. While accurate, it would cause many casual fans to hate the Atreides Empire faster than Herbert originally intended. It would rub many as being too close to ISIS and the Taliban in terms of intolerance and religious conservatism, leaving most viewers unsympathetic to any Atreides character afterward.
Dune Messiah is the shortest book in the series. It may need a little padding.
There’s no way for Chani to go. The planet now belongs to the Lisan Al-Gieb. I will not be surprised if the walk off ending is sidestepped and Chani is in place at the start of Messiah as Paul’s conscious
The Lisan Al-Gaib has become the Mahdi...
The ending of part 2 was meant to make us feel for Chany because we are supposed to relate to her view point the most.
When Paul told Jessica "she will come to accept it eventually, I have seen it," we were supposed to take that literally. That he saw them together again in the future with presciencent sight, and we should expect that to be the case in the 3rd movie.
It's okay to feel like the ending was a cliffhanger though. I'm sure Denis would delight in fooling many like that, but don't be surprised when it's not even an after thought that they are together in the next film and their conflicts are they haven't had children and they both wish they could just leave everything and live a simply life in a stiltent.
@@sullir9397 If "The ending of part 2 was meant to make us feel for Chany[sic] because we are supposed to relate to her view point the most." then it was an epic failure.
As a motion picture *Dune Part 1* and *Dune Part 2* are epics. As adaptations, they are better than most coming out of Hollywood (faint praise that) currently, but only middle of the pack for adaptations of *Dune.*
IMO the movie was pretty clear that Chani would eventually understand Paul’s actions. Or at least both Paul and Jessica both saw a future where Chani would eventually side with Paul
I suspect Villeneu's version of Messiah to borrow some elements from Children of Dune, such a lady Jessica actually playing a role, and maybe some of the things about abominations. At the very least I expect the timeline being moved so the events take place more than 12 years later, so they can have an adult Alia instead of a child. That by itself wouldn't necessarily affect the plot a lot, since for the main plot of the novel it doesn't make much of a difference whether Muad'dib's jihad has been going on for 12 years or 26 years by the time the plot picks off.
Jessica was just so awesome and terrifying in part 2. I wish we could’ve seen so much more of her.
I wonder if they'll address her romance with Gurney in Messiah. That would be interesting as it would allow Jessica to be further fleshed out in the sequel.
@ttrestle Have you seen Saskia Reeves's portrayal of Jessica in *Dune (2000)* -and -*-Children of Dune (2003)?-*- Those are- That's the gold standard for the role to date.
@@RodneyGraves Saskia Reeves was only in the original Dune miniseries from 2000. She wasn't available for the follow up Children of Dune miniseries in 2003, so the role was recast with Alice Krieg portraying Lady Jessica instead.
@@gregorygreenwood-nimmo4954 Thank you for the correction.
@@RodneyGraves They both did a fantastic job with the character to be fair.
We better have navigators in 3rd movie...slug space bus drivers guild is what I'm interested in.
I'm pretty sure he's going to include them. They were out of these two movies mostly because they focused more on Paul's journey but the Guild is essential to explain the wider world of Dune
I just remember that part in the beginning when the conspirators are meeting and Irulan is grossed out by the spice gas coming out of the navigators tank sitting next to her.
In the books, that is when they’re included iirc. So they will 100% be in Dune Messiah.
It was stupid not having Chani and Paul's first child killed in the attack on Sietch Tabr. Of all the changes they could have made that one would have made the most sense. It would have been a stronger motivation for taking the water of life than the one in the book (Gurney turning on Jessica). Not having Alia kill the Baron has long implications. As does the great houses and the Guild not accepting the Atreides Gom Jabbar. Paul threatens to destroy spice production forever but they ignore him to set up the Jihad in the next film but that's not what happens in the books. Paul's Jihad isn't about ascention to Emperor but ascension to being effectively a God which is why it is so distasteful to Paul as he knows people will die in their billions to make him into something he doesn't want to be.
I'm not sure why Villeneuve compacted so many years into just a few months. It would have been better to have Alia as a child to show how the changes in Paul were less sudden.
That kid is barely mentioned on the book, it's a change I can accept. But Chani changes are a total WTF...
@@samuraichicken2315Okay, remember Lord of the Rings? In the book, years have passed between Frodo inheriting the ring and him fleeing Shire. But in the movie it feels like at most a few months. Movies and novels are different media. Dune 2 must appeal to audience who have not read the book, otherwise the movie may flop and there will not be funding for Dune 3. When it comes to telling a story on screen for the general audience--not hardcore Dune fans--I'd trust Villeneuve's judgment.
The kid dying at the seich was one of the only things I thought that it made sense to take out. Even when reading the book it didn't seem necessary. Wasn't his name even Leto as well? Maybe I missed something but I felt like the first kid didn't matter all that much to the rest of the plot
@@samuraichicken2315I think "Alia as a child" is precisely why they condensed that section of the timeline. Filming with kids can be pretty rough for various reasons, from what I've heard.
I have a feeling the vision that Paul had of Chani holding a bloody blade will be what he is going for in the films sequel, I think he wants Chani to kill Paul instead of being his wife. Which means no children of Dune.
I like the streamlined story here. Dune is a dense read and it makes things more accessible to people who don’t know what we know.
Lynch’s Dune ‘84 is the perfect example. Trying to fit the book into a two hour film is impossible without sacrificing b and c plots.
I’m happy to see Denis given free reins over the next instalment, regardless of if it is made in one part or two.
Dennis has 2 movies totaling over 4.5 hours and he still failed to bring the full complexity of the political battles to bare. Lynch has one 2.5 hour movie and got most of it in there
@OrenPanitch part 1 cut stuff, too, and people were telling you not to worry about it because part 2 was coming. And he ended cutting more stuff.
That's why you watch the 4 hour directors cut of David Lynches Dune, it is still my favorite by far. I think Lynch did more visually and narrativly with his 4 hours then Vilinova has done.
@@kennethferland5579 I saw the original at the cinema and loved it. The long form version is much better than the theatrical release. While it does a better job of telling the story more in line with the book I much prefer Denis' vision. That's probably a choice of stylistic vision.
Brad Dourif's Piter is my favourite part of the original and it took me a while to shake off the fact that David Dastmalchian had such a minimal part. I'm hoping that a director's cut exists or is in the making for a later release.
Which part or parts do you think would have made the new film a richer experience?
@OrenPanitch a more faithful adaptation would require a tv series like GoT. Cramming all the complexity and bizarreness of the novel even in 5 hours of movie would likely be very messy for the audiences. And Villeneuve's movies being expensive blockbusters, they had to follow a storytelling that could be understandable and appealing to a large audience.
The fact that Lynch's movie ended up bombing at the box office would suggest that probably the approach of including everything was not ideal.
Ultimately, book and film are different media, so I expect some noticeable differences in an adaptation.
This movie was good, dont get me wrong, but the 2000 and 2003 miniseries covering books 1,2 and 3 are much more faithful ;)
Without a doubt my dude. Can't lie Dennis has kind of sabotaged himself because if Paul and Chani aren't together then how are Leto II and Ghanima meant come into the story? I think Dennis has changed the story so much to a point where the films may not even be redeemable. Might as well pull some sort of multiverse explanation for it to make sense.
I love the miniseries even more after watching this movie.
@Amun_Proxy thats why when Paul drank the water of life he said to Jessica that 'she will come around I have seen it' so in the third I'm sure something will happen and she will come back to him easily fixable. Not everything has to be exactly like the source material all the time cause how boring would that be
@@jaredloveys9617 you're not wrong but in this case the books are still superior to the film. If Dennis made a extended cut of the film then yeah maybe that would be arguable but he literally just deleted any cut footage due to his own ego, and the worst part is that they were bits that could've explained more to the story and it's characters.
@@jaredloveys9617I'll trust Villeneuve to decide what changes to make and which ones to not make when he writes a novel that kickstarts an entire genre.
Until then, it's *FRANK HERBERT'S* Dune, not some limp wristed Frenchman.
Denis will only increase deviating from the books. He thinks he is the god emperor now. Creating his own golden path.
You have to expect some deviation. Movies are just too different from books. A step by step adaption of Dune would not work on the big screen. The main change was Chani which was understandable because even with her pointing out Paul's exploitation of her people, many in the audience still thought that he was a hero. So yeah...media literacy is sadly lacking in our society.
Adaptions never fully follow the source material. You can change things so long as you’re changing them for the better, and the Alia womb change was one of those changes that made the film better.
I’m fairly certain Chani is already pregnant probably with the twins but maybe with the first ill fated first child. I too was disappointed with Chani’s arc in Dune two, but in the second viewing it seemed clearer that she didn’t leave as a scorned lover. She clearly had other reasons that drove her departure. I can think of several that would align with her continued love and support for Paul and am confident DV has/will figure out a way to realign the story arc. However, I also am open to deviations from the books specific story line, especially if it generates new and novel stories for expansion of the franchise based in the incredible and fascinating Dune universe that DV has established with so much verisimilitude. More worm surfing too, hopefully 🪱🏄♂️🌊 🌞
Without Paul and Chani, you can't have Dune Messiah or CoD.
Sometimes, my wife gets overwhelmed with life, and she hops in her car and goes for a ride. Replace that with a sandworm.
Call of Duty?
@@deleted01children of dune
Id prefer a princess to a tomboy wildling. It wont make much difference if he has the children with irulan. Better yet, one from both!!
@@captainmacmellon8909nah me meant call of duty
@misapheonix I'd prefer the Tomboy over a princess with the voice of a 70 year old.
After the first two movies I'm pretty confident that Villeneuve will stick the landing on Messiah. The relationship between Paul and Chani isn't necessarily irreparably damaged. Chani did storm off, but after some time to reflect and possibly a discussion with Jessica, she could well return to the fold. The story needs her too. Alia is a little more problematic, but as our esteemed host points out, they could stretch the time jump to the point where Paul is older and Alia is an adult. I think all the fundamental building blocks of the story are still in place to make Messiah work. We do need to see more (or even some of) the Spacing Guild though.
Of course Chani will return, it is literally said in the movie
@@janmajer4662 THIS. I feel like most people just totally missed that part or something. He literally says to Jessica "she will come around, I've seen it" or something along those lines.
@@smoovadatious2356 Yeah, there isn't really a space for discussion about that, so I find it really weird that people argue about whether she will come back or not
But then what was the point? To tease the audiance with them breaking-up as a couple just to drive up interest in the 3rd movie?
I'm reminding of the pointless scene in The Two Towers where Aragorn fights some Warg riding goblins and is dragged off a cliff and Legolas and Gimili think he is dead for a few minuites and the movie is doing all the somber music and stuff untill SURPRIZE he caught a branch on the cliff face and survived, plot continues as if nothing happened. It's bad anime filler episode pointless.
Meanwhile the Audiance is all "I walked past a poster for the 3rd movie to get to this theater, which has Aragorns face on it, I know he aint dead, don't treat me like an infant".
Note that I have no issue with Chani being made into a mouthpiece for channeling Herberts own meta narrative, that is a creative choice with a clear purpose. But her storming off in aparent jelousy is just pointless drama for the sake of drama.
Alia and hate will reveal the events that happened during the holy war?
I thought his change to the character Chani were nonsensical and made the character very unlikable. I also was not a fan of the condensed timeline in the latter half of the movie. Overall, while the second movie was okay, I was not a big fan of his treatment of the source material.
It left a bitter taste in my mouth and I've been upset and annoyed about the whole thing. It's becoming political too, as these things always do, with people claiming you're a sexist and bigot if you hate the changes made.
Mark my words, Denis is going to make Chani and Alia kill Paul in the 3rd movie, and just go full on into fan-fiction. He's going to become possessed by the Baron and require two strong independent women to kill him and bring freedom, peace, and love to the Imperium. And also they'll be lesbians together, cause why not?
Chani is made so much weaker in the movie for the changes. Chani being more sceptical is great. But chani flipping from honeymood to exwive dynamic is pretty bad. And zendaya's limmited acting range doesnt help.
Chani being both supportive of paul the warrior and resisting paul the prophet be way better then her just switching when he is dragged into prophethood. She is even shows being aware of al these things. Kinda sad.
Maybe danny has plans but i am sceptical
Very disappointed about these discrepancies and the way the baron, the beast and Fayed met their ends. Alia not born and Chani seemingly betrayed really angered me, seemingly all done to set up another movie that I will not go see.
I get wanting to portray Alia as an adult, given her romance with Duncan. Chani’s militant atheism and her storming out at the end really threw me.
I couldn't agree more. Like you're gonna take an epic movie and end it with a side character having a tantrum.
@@jevinday yeah, I mean the book literally ends with Jessica assuring Chani that Paul only has eyes for her, that while a concubine, she will be remembered as his wife, that’s literally the last line of the book. Chani also 100% accepts that Paul’s marriage to Irulan is entirely political
@@hamishsewell5990 She also accepts his ascent to messianic figure which I think makes for a much weaker character than in the film
@@Extracredittttt yeah, in the book, I believe she’s a priestess or something
@@hamishsewell5990 yeah she exists to support and love Paul and doesn't have nearly as much independent motivation
It works better in book form when you are balancing so many different motivations at once; but for a film, I think keeping her the same as the book would have been a complete waste
I think adaptive choices here are smart if not obvious
The movie deviated so much from the book that I wouldn't be surprised if Princess Irulan ends up becoming the mother of Leto II and Ghanima in Part III, but at least Duncan Idaho will return.
That would be bonkers.
That would be terrible. Leto II and Ghanimas ancestral Fremen memories are a pretty big point of what makes them special. Ghanimas name itself is Fremen for "spoil of war". Irulan as their mother would make no sense.
@@NerdCookies I'm hoping Dennis won't lead the story of Dune Messiah end in a "happily ever after" in an attempt to subvert expectations and make this "adaptation" more of a reimagining than an accurate adaptation of the source material.
lol that cracked me up! You might be right, and it would be so terrible one could only laugh.
❤
Given the 12 years gap before Dune and Messiah, I don't think it should be too difficult to reconcile the plot points.
Chani has all the time to come to understand Paul's actions and return to him to play her crucial role (maybe she'll be he mean to show the viewers the impact that the jihad had on Paul).
Alia being a somewhat supernatural creature could be used to justify her fast aging if the timeline is maintained.
To be honest, I thought that having the strange child in the third act of pt.2 would have not worked well on screening and turned off many viewers. Also, probably also practical reasons of shooting schedules with a child actor on desert locations abroad.
Alia wasnt supernatural
Honestly, I think Dune works best as a TV series. There's just too much for a film, even if that film is multiple parts. Too much was cut. The Children of Dune miniseries was great.
If they move into Children of Dune, how will they explain the Baron possessing Alia when she shouldn't have access to her MALE Other Memory?
They won't. She won't go crazy in this path. Paul has prevented many tragedies by choosing to take the water of life two years earlier than the path in the books. If Chani is pregnant, their son would survive. Chani wouldn't become his concubine. And most likely wouldn't convince the twins. Therefore she wouldn't die in childbirth.
In the book, Paul sees two paths. One where his sister kills the Baron Harkonnen. And one where Paul approaches the Baron himself. And just like the film, when Paul approaches the Baron, the vision depicts Paul saying "Hello Grandfather."
So we're watching Paul choose the other path in the books. He's avoided many tragedies. But has lost Chani's love. Once grown baby Leto is revealed to be Paul's only son and heir, Irulan will have him hunted. And probably Chani too. Which means Paul will have to save them. But not before being stabbed by Chani. Which we saw in Paul's first vision after being exposed to spice for the very first time in part 1.
Now that all bets are off, the story will be completely unpredictable. And it will be glorious.
She was pre born with access. Abomination. At 8 weeks, same with the twins .
In the books Bene Gesserit can access all the memories from their mother's genetic line only, meaning all the personas of her ancestors both male and female, but not the memories of her father's ancestral line. Since Lady Jessica is the daughter of Baron Harkonnen, that is how Alia - Jessica's daughter - could be possessed by the Baron's ego memory, but would not have access to the memories of any of her father's - Duke Leto The First's - ancestors. Only the Kwisatz Haderach can access the full genetic memory of the ancestral lines of both their father and their mother, and with it pretty much the sum total knowledge of humanity across many millennia.
@carpeimodiem on one hand? Cool. On the other, that's some dangerous ground to tread on, creatively
They'll make her Transgender LOL
Changing the medium (in this case book to film) there will changes to the story. We also have the benefit of hindsight that Frank Herbert didn’t have while writing Dune and its sequels. While there is staying accurate to the words of the book as written, I think it’s more important to keep faith with the themes and message of the story. There are also the limitations of the mediums to consider to include the logistics of production. Some plot lines will have to change or even be cut in service of the story as a whole. I’ve heard writers referring to this as “killing your babies.” Some plots will die so that the story will live. So far I’m satisfied with decisions that have been made and excited to see how this adaptation will develop!
Well said, Doc.
Film tech caught up years ago. You don't have to "kill your babies."any more.(And what a fucked up expression besides. ) Plays, and musicals used to have intermission. So everyone could go to the bathroom and get snacks. Maybe we should go back to that.
The expression is 'kill your darlings', and that is advice for writers creating a new world, not adapting an existing work created by someone else.
@gregorygreenwood-nimmo4954 Thanks for the correction. The spirit of my comment is the same. You could have said "kill your cats" couldn't do it. And "killing your darlings "is only slightly less messed up.
@@christophersandidge8257 I for one hold that *Dune* would best be served as three movies as broken in the novel:
Dune (bildungs Roman)
Muad'Dib (becoming Fremen)
The Prophet (becoming Mahdi)
That is part of why the Sci Fi Miniseries ( *Dune (2000)* and *Children of Dune (2003)* ) are superior adaptations while being lesser works.
As CinemaSins continually demonstrates, no movie is without sin.
Spoiler Alert - What if Chani is already pregnant w the twins, and she continues her trajectory as a growing adversary of Paul's, perhaps being conflated in some way w another character in Dune Messiah, in any case acting as some kind of lynchpin for Fremen resistance to this holy war that Paul is now spearheading - Herbert wanted to clarify that Paul should not be viewed as a hero, and Villeneuve's Chani seems maybe the best vehicle now to take this point further
I went to see Dune 2 a few days ago and had to maintain a 'suspension of disbelief' from the deviations from the source material. I enjoyed the movie for what it is; A particular interpretation of a very rich story-arc.
I think I liked it more the second time because I was able to let go of a lot of the expectations and appreciate it's strong points. At the end of the day it's a film that excels visually and emotionally. You see it, you hear it and you feel it. The story however is basically a 30,000 foot view of the major themes without really penetrating the story. You kind of feel it as an itch in the back of your mind, a hunger for something that wasn't quite there.
With all the departures from the book, I am not expecting to see any extra factions that might belabor the point when it can be driven home with less on screen. while the guild and mentats are essential, as we already know who they are. But the Tlielaxu or the Ix won't really need coverage unless you're looking for more baddies to smite. While Scytale, and somewhat Bijaz have their parts, they aren't required (in my opinion) to drive this story to a conclusion and I do think the series can still be a masterpiece so long as the ending has pretty much the same outcome. If the Ix become some big deal it will raise my eyebrow.
I was rather surprized that Alia was so cut from the movie. For one it has compressed EVERYTHING in the first two movies to under 9 months, which is very compressed. It also makes it harder to integrate her in another movie. The dumbing down of Paul threatening to "nuke the spice fields" as his means of rising to power and then the Freeman just jumping in spaceships to go on a holy war really puts a major hole in the plot, one which should be obvious even to viewers of just the film.
You are meant to feel tension of the situation. Remember, this is Hollywood.. Chani will come around as Paul has said. We all know the truth of the matter. Anyway. We've all read the novels. That's all that really matters. The third movie will put everything right to some extent. Should be interesting.
Lets just take any recent franchise and its fans compensating for bad storytelling by saying after each movie, "Oh no no, they'll fix it in the next movie." "Oh they'll address it in the next movie." OR "You bigot racist you just hate!" Well yes I do just hate but if the storyteller aka director starts changing major aspects of the story of Dune and is planning on making the second novel I don't just have concerns it will no longer be Dune Messiah. I'm more than willing to be happy to be proven wrong. The two Dune movies are beautiful to look at and I don't hate the cast, love some of it, but Chani was character assassinated, that IS NOT Chani. Alia is IMPORTANT! She kills the Baron. And if they ever made Children of Dune... but I think they already broke that possibility with these two movies. I have many thoughts and points about these two movies that I don't have room for here and I do like some things about it but...Christopher Walken as the Emperor, I just can't, and at one point he almost slipped into the Walken Persona. Why not Mike Myers as Emperor, seriously.
Great video by the way! I will hold back from ranting about Dune 2. Keep up the great work!
Children of Dune Spoilers: I just want to see Alia completely schizoid when she is possessed by her grandfather the Baron. I want to see a proper Children of Dune in IMAX. After credit scene Leto II , 10,000 years later, in full worm form. An old man can dream cant he?
I think that Villeneuve might have to help us understand what Paul's now fully awaken powers made him see. the path he walks in Messiah is not the one he wants but the one he must to avoid even more disastrous results. Chani will understand that and try help him stay grounded. also I believe that Shishakli, Chani's friend played by Souheila Yacoub will be back as... Scythale the face dancer.
It was not necessary for us to understand what he saw, only that what he saw was the only way in which him and his mother will get to survive and get back at the Harkonans
The deviations from the book may bring other changes but they probably won't affect much of what happens in Messiah.
After taking the water of life Paul says, when referring to Chani "she'll come to understand, I've seen it". Before the duel Chani says to Paul "this isn't over yet", meaning that she wants to know why he kept her in the dark when it comes to the decisions he ended up making. So one can conclude that they'll get back together. I like what they did to her character, for all the reasons you've stated. She loves Paul deeply and hence rejects the religious fanaticism that surrounds him.
At first I was upset about the change to Alia because she's one of my favorite characters from the books, and I really wanted to see her as a toddler with an adult mind 'doing the things she does' in this adaptation. But now, having seen the film a few times, I actually love it. Even though we don't see her as a toddler, they still managed to capture her creepiness and fanatical devotion to Paul. Keeping her in her mother's womb meant that someone else had to kill the Baron. I'm glad they made Paul do it, because seeing Muad'Did storming into the Emperor's throne room in full jihad mode and stabbing the Baron in front of everyone was brutal.
Muad'Did has enough Atreides, Harkonnen and Corrino fire power to bring spice production to a halt. Even though we don't see the Spacing Guild in the final act of the film, one can conclude that they'll have to comply.
Villeneuve subverted our expectations and gave us a new way to experience Dune. So no, I'm not concerned about the potential changes to Messiah.
They'll have to make up. They might have Chani joining the group that leads to Leto II becoming to worm God, and that's how she gets the insane amount of spice needed to turn the twins into pre-born.
In all honesty, while I find Dune Part 2 to be a visually beautiful movie, the status quo as it exists at the end of the movie effectively precludes anything approaching a faithful adaptation of Dune Messiah or Children of Dune going forward. Chani is unrecognisable in her movie manifestation compared to how she was depicted in the books, so much so that vital aspects of her beliefs and world view have been actively inverted. The way she storms off in what is frankly a petulant huff at the end of the movie causes all kinds of issues with the plot of any future adaptation, most obviously with issues surrounding exactly how the immensely important characters of Leto the Second and Ghanima will even be born at all. Either Dune Part 3 will deviate so much from the source material that it really will be a Dune Saga adaptation in name only, or we will see some sort of drastic attempt to course correct at the start of the next movie which will cause plenty of its own problems.
If Chani simply goes back to Paul between movies that is a huge characterisation cop out, especially given the big deal that was made of her walking away from Paul at the end of Part 2, but if she doesn't then the plotline of Dune Messiah simply can't happen. If Chani doesn't conceive the twins then how are they born? Surely not to Irulan which would make a mockery of both their character arcs out of the gate, and if they are written out of the story like Chani and Paul's first child was in Dune Part 2 then you simply aren't adapting the Dune Saga in any meaningful way anymore. If Chani is already pregnant with the twins at the end of Dune Part 2, then that makes a huge mess of the timeline of the twelve year long Fremen Jihad in the books and makes it extremely unlikely that Irulan would even be able to find Chani in the deep desert Seiches, still less spike her food with the contraceptive toxin that indirectly leads to Chani's death in the books, and if Chani doesn't die in childbirth then Paul is not traumatised by her loss and never walks into the desert in the manner of blind Fremen after he loses his physical sight to the Stoneburner, and so never goes on to later return as The Preacher to condemn the corruption that has built up within the religion that has arisen around his cult of personality - it breaks the entire narrative of multiple future novels.
What worries me is that it is at least possible that none of this is of concern to the studio because they have no intention of making even a minimally faithful adaptation of Messiah in Dune Part 3, and just as Dune Part 2 deviated much more from the source material than Part 1 did, so Dune Part 3 will include far more sweeping and extreme deviations than Part 2 did. Given the fact that the dangers of being Pre-Born were largely glossed over in Part 2, and Gaius Helen Mohaim called Paul instead of Alia 'abomination' in the final scene of the movie, and it was Paul and not Alia who killed the Baron, I suspect that what will happen is that elements of Paul and Alia's character arcs from Messiah and Children of Dune will be swapped, and it will be Paul who becomes possessed by the Baron's ego memory in the movie in order to complete his character's rewritten arc, causing him to undergo a simplistic heel-turn into an unambiguous villain, and it will be Chani - possibly in the guise of The Preacher reworked as a deep desert freedom fighter against Paul's tyrannical regime - who has to lead the fight against Paul's brutal rule, probably aided by a reworked Alia as an 'uncorrupted' (read - not male) version of the Kwizatz Hadrach and a Lady Jessica who has seen what Paul has become and seeks redemption for birthing a monster into the cosmos. Paul is defeated, either renouncing his power or having an end like Alia's in the books and finally taking his own life to free himself from the Baron's ego memory after being bested in battle by Chani or Alia (instead of Leto the Second defeating Alia in his pre-God Emperor of Dune larval stage as happened in Children of Dune) and Chani goes on to free Arrakis from the 'colonial influence' of off-worlders and returns Dune to the Fremen people as an extremely on the nose anti-colonial finale note to the trilogy. It would horribly miss the point of Frank Herbert's writing, but it would fit nicely into the sort of DEI approved, ESG money compatible plotline that we see so much of in Hollywood these days. I can only fervently hope I am wrong.
Bro, you have a terrible level of paranoia and I am horrified by your scenario. Yes, according to the scenario we have now, we can say that major changes will be made in Dune Messiah. If it had been under another director's hands, I might have considered what you wrote, but Denis practically worships these books, especially the first 2 books containing Paul's arc. I don't think he would kill and betray the story so much.
@@kranatsnah We will just have to wait and see, though I would remind you that in the movie business directors - even very famous ones - do not have a free hand but are ultimately answerable to the studio and its money men. They control the purse strings, so they have the final say. In order to get any part of his vision realised, Villeneuve has been forced to make compromises as we have already seen, and there is no reason to suppose that won't continue to happen going forward.
You're on the ball with this.
I really disliked how Chani was treated in Delnuve's telling.
I feel that Jessica and Stilgar were completely different characters when you look at part 1.
Jessica was so weak and a cry-baby, constantly stressing out. And Stilgar was a true leader, someone you wouldn't want to mess with.
But in part 2 Jessica was a strong character and Stilgar just came across as the comic relief.
I wouldn't call Jessica in Part 2 strong so much as extremely sinister - her character was pretty much villainised, going from a devoted mother into a borderline insane schemer more than happy to wager her only son's life in order to pursue Bene Gesserit prophecy and simple power, and using the Voice to force sceptical Northern Fremen to follow Paul out of fear instead of genuine loyalty, preying on the weak ones who fear her first as she says while she mutters to her unborn daughter in one scene. She is nothing like the character we saw in Part 1, seemingly having had a wholesale personality transplant very much for the worse after taking the Water of Life, and is absolutely nothing like the genuinely strong yet also compassionate and principled woman she is in the source material, who doesn't forget her own values or sense of identity immediately after becoming a Reverend Mother. Chani is also never has the sort of adversarial relationship with Jessica we see in the movie in the books.
I agree completely that Stilgar was reduced in the movie from a highly competent and pragmatic leader to a comedy relief fanatic in a way he wasn't in the books. In the source material his shift in beliefs is more subtly drawn, with his fall from being an ally and true companion to merely a follower being something Paul himself laments as diminishing who Stilgar is as a person and a leader. In the movies they make Stilgar a joke, going so far as to directly reference Monty Python's The Life of Brian at one point when Stilgar says that the fact that Paul is too modest to admit that he is the Lisan al Ghaib is further proof that he is the messiah. It was yet another character change I cannot support.
Chan as well
@@gregorygreenwood-nimmo4954 very well-written. I wholeheartedly agree.
I'm betting that third movie won't even get made. If it does, there's going to be a lot of time between the second and third installments.
Given how much time DV spent preaching to us and far he deviated from the source material already, I think he is just going to toss his copy of Dune Messiah in the bin and write his own story.
I have a bad feeling we are not getting the twins. I think he is telling Pauls and the Bene Gesserit story. He is using Chani as a narrative device and has no intention of setting up the universe for more films to follow.
This is the answer. Chani will be the leader to assassinate Paul that took place in Messiah instead of introducing tons of new characters - we already saw a vision of her killing him when he doesn't expect it in Dune part 1.
@@JCDenton3 that sounds awesome, I would love to see that version
The rest of the books are too silly to be on screen.
@@JCDenton3 This would be out of the blue and has no build up, the visions in part 1 are already explained and were completely simbolical, they are not enough to make this make sense in Messiah. Also, this would be too big of a change from the story to be resonable
@@sintwelve I think they could work with some changes. But I think a good place to end the story would be with Dune Messiah and with its book ending.
The spacing guild and Duncan’s golem will be major world building in Dune part 3 . I believe that has been Villnueve’s intent when he decided there would be a third part.
Same as the books. He's spent lots of time with the Harkonnens in part 2. They are pretty much out of it so time now to dive into the Guild, the tlielaxu and maybe more the corrino
Having read the books while enjoying Denis films of Dune. Part Two took a lot out of my total enjoyment.
I don't think this will bode well for further Denis Dune films.
I do agree with the inclusion of the other political bodies and world building point. The rest of it can be done with “movie magic” I think. My only gripe with the dune films is how some elements are over so quickly and simply. Sometimes a bit more meat on those bones would be better.
Chani reeked of angry liberal gen-z’er. The young, new school Fremen that know everything vs the old dumb religious Fremen who have sacrificed everything for their entire lives. I think Chani doing flips and shitting on full grown Sardaukar pretty much solidified that Chani will be the true hero and Paul is the actual antagonist. I couldn’t wait for part 2 and I’m not really looking forward to part 3.
So far the adaptations made sense to me as a nessercery simplification, but you're right that Chani and Aliya were simplified so much they became different people. Simplified politics may be nessercery, but it does lose some of the original. Frankly, you would need a movie twice as long as we got to do the full plot of the book justice,
I don't care, frankly. Part 2 was so different, and deviated so far from the book. What happened to Thufir? Gurney's mistrust of Jessica? The Weirding Way? Why no Alia (a bullshtako 10 second cameo doesn't frelling count)? No Space Navigators or proper space-folding? NO BIG REVEAL OF THE MOST ICONIC THING?!?!??!?!!? Seriously, we only saw the mouth and PATCHES of the sandworm!!! Christopher Walken looked tired and bored, like he didn't wanna be there. And what the fùck was that THING in the Baron's chambers in Part 1?!?
It was like IT Chapter 2 all over again. I'm not watching the full video, I'm sorry, but i don't care about Denis' Dune anymore. I got this Special Edition package for Part 1, it looks like the Box, has space for Part 2, as well, cost me THIRTY FRAKKING DOLLARS. Now it's a waste. The Sci-Fi Channel miniseries is the definitive version for me.
How does the fremen jihad spread without the help of the spacing guild? 🤔
The cringiest scene in the movie when Jessica forced Chani to heal Paul, mixes tear with worm bile, Jessica says "desert spring tears" 😂 😂 😂 I thought my God.. Was this inspired by Pokémon movie ending when the Pokémons tears free Ash from stone?? If part 3 writing is anything like that scene, it's doomed. When current day writers think they can out do the original author it's always a recipe for disaster. Game of Thrones is the best example of that
I think you make many great points and our hopes are that Denis will remain faithful to the Dune saga, as he has done for the most part. In the Lord of the Rings film adaptions, major characters such as Glorfindel and Tom Bombadil were left out entirely in service of the overall story line. I see many similar themes between Dune and Lord of the Rings, and whatever Denis decides to do in altering the source material has my full support, as Pater Jackson had with adapting LOTRs.
Given how open the end of the second movie was I feel like there's plenty of room to tie up all these loose threads in the first act of the messiah movie while using them to set up the proper messiah story and themes. For example, I can see the spacing guild coming in and stopping the attack of the landsraad or submitting to Paul because the prescient navigators know that Paul can destroy the spice.
The Guild is transporting all the Fremen for thouse attacks, the plot seems to want us to forget that they have a monopoly on transport and that thouse ships the Fremen jump into and rise into the sky with can't travel bewtween stars on their own.
First: Just a brief thanks, for these vids. Quite the talent for comparing/contrasting the books and this recent film adaption. Concise and engaging.
I think V is dong an excellent job with his poetic licence. Obviously , you need to adapt for the short and long forms of film and literature respectively and I think he is walking the tightrope well thus far, whilst still being true to the story. Arguably the best adaptation of the Dune universe.
Once again, the miniseries does a better job at conveying the content of the story.
Hmm. I now wonder if "Dune Messiah" won't be "Dune Messiah Part One" and "Part Two," with most of "Part One" being expansions on things referenced but not explored in the novel. More about the holy war and the complications it brings up, the character journeys that bring them to where we meet them at the start of "Dune Messiah."
On the whole, I think I liked the changes in "Part Two." We already have some investment in Chani from "Part One," even if you haven't read the book, so putting her as the mouthpiece for "following this man as a messiah is a BAD IDEA!" makes the message land harder. Especially as her and Paul's romance develops, having Paul's lady love be the one saying he shouldn't be the messiah is more powerful, and gets Herbert's point across. The omission of the Spacing Guild creates a wrinkle, but also opens the door that Paul has to use force to make his usurpation of the Imperial Throne stick, so he HAS to give the order that starts the holy war. It's an oversimplification, but a lot of people reading the book question why "The Voice From The Outer World" can't just say "Hey, guys, if you could not rampage through the universe killing people in my name, that'd be great." The various changes and shifts in focus in "Part Two" show something I'd always kind of believed: if Paul uses these messianic prophecies to get the Fremen going, he's not going to be able to get them to stop. Fanatics are fanatics because once you wind them up, you pretty much have to just let them wind down in their own time.
Thanks Elaine
I was so worried we would have ended up with a creepy baby like in the twilight movies. I'm both sad and happy that they didn't include a child Alia
Villeneuve is making Alia a far greater villain than in the books ; he is preparing a confrontation between Alia, Chani (and the twins ?), maybe Paul and Irulan's future infant, and Feyd and Margot's child (as a secret antagonist). Brace yourselves, fans, for we will have a Dune's Messiah, but "Rise of Skywalker" style, with a "mothers and children" family war...
@florianpierredumont4775 Heaven forfend...
Whats it like being so miserable that when someone makes something good you trash it? You trash it with 0 evidence or even a sound theory? Pretty pathetic
Amazon
I dont like big deviations they are rough and coarse and they get everywhere.
@@mherrj You can like or dislike something without acting "miserable". I don't say the changes Villeneuve made are bad in and of themselves, I am speculating about the conclusion that this deviations may lead to, in the end. Yes, I have some fears, it's true. I am not a hardcore fan, I have read the books, I like to speak about the Duniverse, yet I don't see the "genious" in such changes.
If you chose to read the book, than choose to read the title sequence "based on" etc etc
Yes would've loved to seen a demon toddler roaming about. But after baby goot & baby yoda; frankly I'm glad DV didn't baby it up in that manner
Agreed. And having a talking womb baby was creepy and I think worked well for the pacing of the film, as a time-skip of several years could be avoided.
“Many book fans harbor mixed feelings.“
Yeah, that’s one way of putting it…
For a much needed laugh, imagine Paul leading the Fremen into battle riding on Falkor from the Neverending Story instead of a sandworm. 😂
Leaving out the spacing guild was the biggest let down of the sequel, particularly given villeneuve’s enchanting portrayal of the aliens in “Arrival”. I feel this decision left the film absent of the mystique I had hoped for.
Excellent analysis, as usual. There is NO excuse for these films to not incorporate all of Frank Herbert's details of how the Dune universe functions. It was done in less time and very clearly by the 2000 SciFi miniseries. DV just wanted his own "vision" of Frank Herbert's universe to take precedence regardless of how it changed the story and its nuances.
I love the mentality of "I love X so I want to make it into a movie. But I want to change this, this, and this" and yes I'm aware of the changes you have to make from one medium to another, such as book to film, but those aren't the types of changes we're talking about here...
Just make an adaptation of the thing you supposedly "love"...I don't get it...
The lack of water discipline in these shots still makes me uncomfortable. 😁
I think the easiest way to have Chani come back around to Paul is revealing that she was pregnant at the ending of Part 2. This may be symbolized by her never taking off the blue scarf which was stated to be a symbol for love in the Fremen culture of the movies. She may not love him as much anymore, hence the scarf being relocated from her head to her arm, she can't bring herself to take it off fully because she may have already learned she was pregnant.
I guess the movie holds up, i kinda liked it, i would've preferred to have Alia take out the Baron and could've done without Chani's despicable behavior. It's too bad the movies failed to capitalize on Prana-bindu training which focuses on precise control of nerves and musculature. In the book, this gives practitioners near blinding physical speed in combat. This is why it was the Fremen who coined the term "Weirding Way" as they believed they were seeing magic. This was an exciting part of Dune's close quarters-combat and becomes even more so with the introduction of the evil Honored Matres, an all-women group who kill with their feet. (fast unblockable kicks). The movies fumbled the ball on this.
Also, something to be... concerned about:
Villeneuve said he doesn't want to do the rest of the books.
If Denis isn't interested in at least completing the first trilogy, then there's no reason for Leto III and Ghanima to be born. The entire story could be ended by Villeneuve's take on Dune Messiah, a kind of big period to punctuate Herbert's core message.
So instead of that cabal working against Paul in the book Dune Messiah, there's Chani, leading the "secular" Fremen in opposition to to Paul, kind of like those of the Fedaykin who were in opposition to Alia's regency in Children of Dune.
You could still see the cabal working against Paul, but now you also have Chani.
And she and Paul won't reconcile at the end. They might both be dead. Or a similar ending to the book only there's no twins while Paul still [spoilers].
So I guess we'd better be ready for a vastly different Book 2 adaptation.
I'm interested to see if Jason Momoa can pull off Hayt. Assuming even that's still in Villeneuve's Dune messiah adaptation.
Haven’t read Dune Messiah yet, and I’m just finishing Dune, so I’m still experiencing it all for the first time.
I can hear them already typing how Denis changes is perfect and will have no consequences , we just need to trust in Denis and not question lmao . what ever happened to Beware of charismatic leaders and don’t blindly follow people. The irony.😂. ChAnI wAs gReAt …!
Cry more lmao
@@emmanuelmurillo5116 😭😭as I hop on the sand worm lmao
This channel is amazing.
I appreciate what Villeneuve has done; but there is some that I don't agree with and even don't like. However that's to be expected with an adaptation of any book, or (especially) series. I think the best stories are those that try to stay close to the stories, whether history or fiction.
As always, thank you so very much for the videos.
Adaptation means change. Alia is changed because a timeskip killed the pace of a movie (that doesnt happen.when reading) and Chani was changed because Herbert himself said readers didnt understand the book. Vileneuve stayed close to Herbert intentions instead of the text. You can tell Denis is a fan, however Messiah will be complicated with this changes, lets.wait and see what he does to solve this
Its respectable to not like Villeneuve changes but I can understand those chnges are personal solutions to adapt and imposible novel.
He can just make Messiah set more than 20 years after part two. That would solve the Alia problem. Then he would either just have to age Paul up a little bit or fall back on the geriatric properties of the spice. I have no idea what he is going to do about Chani at this point. Nothing would surprise me. Since it's unlikely he will go any further than Messiah, I wouldn't be surprised if he went ahead and made changes at the expense of the plot lines in Children and GEOD. If that's the case, then I wouldn't be surprised if he went ahead and made Irulan the mother of Paul's kids and then had Chani lead an insurrection. I have also resigned myself to the very real possibility that the Guild and the Tleilaxu will be left out altogether. Or maybe, if they give him a proper budget (like 300 million for example) then he might go all out unless he is now one of those directors who are into subverting expectations just for the sake of subverting expectations (which may be the case).
Here's another thing that bothers me. All of the Fremen ended up commandeering Saudarkar ships to go off and have a space battle. No foundation was ever laid to explain how the Fremen would just be able pilot spaceships without any training and then steer them off into war (immediately after just having fought a huge land battle that appeared to have lasted an entire day). I don't even understand why DV decided to make it so that nobody accepts Paul's ascendency.
his rationale for the changes to Chani means he didn't believe in Timothy's acting ability to portray the changes to his own character over time AND/OR fully buys into woke oppressed/oppressor, break-up-the-family neo-communism like the rest of Hollywood. Probably a mix of both. A terrible change to a great story.
I don’t know if it was the directors intention, but having never read the books, the movie style causes me to seek out the source material to find out more details. I think it is good that the movies are different in that way. No 2 artists colour their work the same way
I didn't like terrible end off Chanie and Paul love story in part 2 ,so I think that 3rd part can't be better then 2 with useless love end ..
Denis new slogan: he who can destroy a thing, controls a thing.
1- concerning Chani, for "modern times" do you think Denis' changes to her character was done to fit the I don't adhere to religion nor simp for a man world social media like to portray?
2- for Denis' two part movie that's nearly 6 hours long how does David Lynch's version manage to cram so much more of the Dune world into a 2 hour and 15 minute movie?
3- could Dune Messiah potentially be a two part movie?
1 - I think they changed her character to make her serve more than one purpose. In the book she's a believer just like Stilgar. For the film they made her the face of the skeptics and Stilgar the face of the zealots. Personally, I appreciate the change. Its more interesting having a love interest whos torn between loving Paul the man and hating Paul "the prophet". I'm curious where this goes rather than the predictable believer she is in the book.
2 - Dune '84 is clunky as all hell because of it as well as Lynch's unique vision. Outside of sentimentals and book purists, I don't know anyone who really likes Dune '84. It's cheesy at best and the book deserves a better adaptation.
3 - i think Villeneuve and Spaiths (however it's spelled) are capable enough writers to make it all work. I'm more worried about audience interest in a third movie that's supposed to have less than half the action of part 2 - think having Return of the Jedi coming before Empire Strikes Back.
In a world where spice consumers routinely lives over 500 years, they can chose to look as young as they want... The problem is Chani, she dies age 28 in the books, and that makes it imposible for her to give kids to Paul, while Alia looking anything older than 8yo on the movie
I think Denis is saving the Guild navigators for Dune Messiah.
Perhaps he will give us young Alia in flashbacks.
The death of Duncan was framed in such a way that I think Denis intends to use it over and over again in Duncan's ummm "returns".
I hope Dune 3 is 4hours long please ❤ if there's no part 4
I have been arguing about chani and the adaptation on reddit.. twitter as well , and RUclips . Over book changes
Watching the 'Dune Part 2 Denis Villeneuve Breaks Down The Sandworm Scene' video from Vanity Fair's RUclips channel, Villeneuve explains his reasoning for changing Chani as his own attempt to correct the Story of Dune as Frank Herbert wrote it, to be more in line with Herbert's own criticism of his own book - when he said he was disappointed that more readers didn't get the 'beware the faith you place in your leaders' sentiment.
The problem with this, is that Herbert wrote Dune Messiah as his way to correct and explore this theme; and by forcing it into the Dune Part 2 film Villeneuve has muddled the ending of the first book which is a Hero's Journey story with a traditional Love Story as a subplot. It doesn't matter if, in hindsight, Herbert wanted for their to be a clearer tertiary message of beware leaders, etc. it simply isn't in the first Dune novel as it was structured and written.
The Messiah worship theme and tension is explored perfectly well in the Dune and Dune Messiah books through the character of Stilgar. In Dune, Stilgar is the main measuring rod for the Freman becoming belivers in Paul's Divinity; then in Dune Messiah it's through Stilgars eyes that we see the tension, the questioning, about this new future.
Let's also not pretend that Stilgar doesn't have every reason to believe in Paul by the end of Dune; the Prophecies may have been put in place by the Bene Gesserit, arguably to be used and manipulated by their order as required, but they were foretelling the coming of the Kwisatz Haderach which was their ultimate goal, which Paul fullfills, or something very close to it. Paul's power is very real and orders of magnitude greater then anything else in the know universe at this time.
However, by trying to make Chani serve this purpose, and so early in the story, it has: distorted Stilgar's story, cheapened Paul's heroic triumph at the end of Dune, spoiled Chani's character and story, beside, supporting and grounding Paul's character, which ultimately ruins their love story in the events of the first book and potentially its tragedy in the second book.
The end result is they have wasted alot of precious screen time developing this additional story arc for Chani which, at best, will be correted in the third film, which is supposed to be covering Dune Messiah's story, further wasting more precious screen time in that movie, so we can explore one of the primary themes of Dune Messiah in the films covering Dune's story, so we can ultimately have a third film which primarily exists to explore this theme which is now in the first films...wait, this way leads to stagnation and is not part of the Golden Path hahaha.
P.S. ramblings aside, I still quite liked these films, just book fan gripes about deviations from the source material.
P.P.S love the vids @NerdCookies ❤
TL:DR
well said dude , 100% agreed , its like they dont understand the pacing required to tell the story and/or they dont trust the audience enough , in which then you cannot tell a story with a surprise if the whole story is about ruining the surprise XD
I can't stand Chani in this movie maybe I am the only one but don't like her at all shes so different from the book that's one of the most annoying changes
But, it kind of makes sense that Chani would have doubts and jealousy. After all she is only human.
You aren't the only one.
Yea I REALLY didn’t like the liberties taken with the movie. Nobody watched the movie for Chani/Zandaya. But they forced her into as much as they could. And where the F was Aliya??? I was looking forward to a toddler killing the Baron with the voice and a Gom Jabbar. But no. We got….Paul stabbing his throat. Feyd didn’t use any poison on his blade. Where was count Fenring and Thufir??? Just. Ugh. It’s like he ran out of money.
Fenring & Thufir instead of Chani-screentime. Easily more interesting characters (esp Thufir) and shame they got cut entirely
I can tell you a bunch of non-fans are in fact seeing this movie for Zendaya.
@@muddlewait8844 right. What I meant was. DUNE fans didn’t see this movie for her.
Also, Thufir with Feyd Rautha (agreed standout player in Part 2, Austin Butler!) and The Baron.
Easily would be more engaging than 6 minutes of establishing that Paul & Chani kind of like-like each other [giggle but in Chakobsi]
@@adamsinger123 exactly. NO FANS CARE ABOUT CHANI.
part 2 just fell flat for me, and man was i hoping it would be outstanding..part 1 felt better crafted more put together.. but part 2 just fell flat and rushed. im still a huge fan, but this one didn’t gel for me :(
It's a rare adaptation of a beloved fantasy or sci-fi that fully pleases its book fans. Some of the key figures and plot points have to be sacrificed. Villeneuve seems intent on capturing a full sensory experience of the world as well as remaining true to Herbert's challenge of the messiah / hero trope. We're not going to get every thread or every important character from the books, but I think so far it's a fantastic adaptation and an equally promising as a trilogy.
I think it’s smart of Denis to want a long break before tackling Messiah. He knew it would be the most complicated and difficult to make.
If they're going to keep the ending of Messiah open-ended with Chani bearing Paul's children, Paul and Chani are obviously going to be together again one way or another. Whether Chani just gets lonely and desperate for Paul or she's persuaded into following Paul again, she's sure to reunite with him and still have her tensions with his power. It's an even bigger question on if Chani will still die from childbirth or a different cause or survives to take care of the kids which would be tricky to factor in on a potential Children of Dune film whether Villeneuve or someone else directs it.
I'm really hoping that Villeneuve does something gutsy like skip Leto and Ghanima and have Paul take the Golden Path. That way it really sinks into people's psyche to not trust cults of personalities because not only would Paul have been the cause of 62 + billion people dead but he'd also be the same person who lived for thousands of yeas oppressing people but also breeding them into being invisible to even those with psychic abilities
While I am a big fan of Dune - I was strangely unmoved by part 2.
So here's hoping that Part 3 can breath some life, excitement and resolution back into the story.
Other omissions include the New sound weapons, a returning Duncan Idaho, where was the captured Atreides mentat (Thufir Hawat) ?
He did a good job in Dune 1. He ruined it in Dune 2.
In Dune Messiah, there are underlying scars in the relationship between Paul and Chany. In the book it's probably most due to their lost child, Leto II, and Chany's inability to give him children, but there is another part of it where Paul's religious prestige makes it awkward because she doesn't see him as the messiah in their relationship with each other, to her mind he's a leader, and she is his woman, and she will defend his honor in that regard if the situation demands. The relationship became awkward because his religious stature interferes with everything in their home life, whereas they would both prefer to go back to their time when they journey'd together in the desert, sharing a stiltent, and life was much simpler.
When the 3rd movie comes about, there will be a significant time lapse, and their relationship will already be just as Paul predicted, that Chany will have come to accept what happened and they will be together. The Fremen in her will accept him as her leader, but she will still be adverse to the religious stuff, and for that reason will not take a part in court, and their life together will be private. The scars in their relationship won't be from a lost child, but from the trust lost because of the schism that took place in part 2. Not having children will still be a conflict.
Drawn up as such, I don't think there are any real ramifications from how part 2 ended and how it relates to the story of Dune Messiah. I think people are overthinking it, and will see how simple it is when they see it when comes out, when ever that will be.
Stupid changes that weren’t needed. I’m so disappointed in part 2.
I agree. A good director who says he loves the book but has ruined it by changing who the characters are and how they fit in the story but in the present and future. He had all most 6 hours between the 2 parts and a huge budget.
Spicediver's cut of David Lynch's movie is better and that's based on flawed interpretations also. Even the SyFy miniseries is better in many respects.
Stupid? Why would you want an adaptation to do exactly like the book and what others have already done? The changes aren’t even that big of a deal because they can obviously still bring it back around to the books. It’s just adds more drama and isn’t a big deal…It’s crazy imo that you’re disappointed over part 2 because of a couple small changes…it’s one of the best sci fi movies out there! I couldn’t imagine what you’d be pleased with lol
@@garycarter6773ruined? How!?You’re saying that it’s no longer possible to bring it all back around to give us the same ending in part 3? lol yall are dramatic! It’s obvious the way part 2 ends is setting up to make Chani’s and Paul’s fate more bittersweet when she’s dies and he leaves…Denis’s has a childhood passion of Dune and he’s created beautiful masterpiece that’s like nothing we’ve ever seen on the big screen. The attention to detail on so many levels (all looked over because it’s not from the book) showing he loves the story of Dune just as much as the most passionate of fans so I can’t wrap my head around how anyone that’s a fan of dune can’t just sit back, trust and enjoy! I swear people act like he’s ruined everything from a couple changes that aren’t really changing anything because it’s a trilogy and ITS NOT OVER 😂
The aging thing threw me off with casting an older emperor.
The changes for the adaptation make sense to me, and I feel confident Messiah will be a faithful adaptation. The only change that I don't like and I genuinely feel that it could have been included is Mentats. Seems they were completely cut for part two. I love the changes for Chani as she's a more interesting character with agency and doesn't just go along with Paul. She questions and challenges him - i think this feeds into the idea of her grounding him in humanity.
Cinematic brilliance...screenwriting idiocy.
@robertparris532 Concision for the win.