Room Miking Tricks - Creating A Boundary Mic
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 9 сен 2024
- I'm back with another cool room miking trick! I absolutely love finding ways to create a sense of space around a drum sound. Something that adds a vibe or energy to the sound.
One of those ways is using a small diaphragm condenser to create a "PZM" or "Boundary" mic. This is a very effective way of creating space without getting too roomy. Plus it works in almost any room!!
This is similar to the how I use an SM57 on a wall. If you haven't seen that video you should check it out! • Drum Room Mic Techniqu...
Gear used in this video:
Mic Parts SDC-84: microphone-par...
Audio-Technica ATM250: www.audio-tech...
Audio-Technica Pro63: www.audio-tech...
Roswell Pro Audio Delphos II: roswellproaudi...
Trident 88 Console: tridentaudiodev...
Ludwig Classic Maple: www.ludwig-dru...
Paiste Cymbals: paiste.com/
----------------------------------------
Ultimate Studios, Inc is a full service recording studio, mixing studio and band development resource located in Los Angeles, CA.
Panorama City, CA 91402
www.UltimateStu...
recording studio los angeles, north hollywood, van nuys,
recording, mixing, mastering, video production, web development, SEO, rock recording studio
/ ultimatestudiosinc
/ ultimatestudiosinc
Twitter: URStudioinc
Recording Ninja Workshops:
www.RecordingNi...
Charlie on Facebook:
/ cwaymire
We believe EVERYONE deserves great sounding music!
Ultimate Studios, Inc is a boutique production facility for artists and bands to collaborate, create, and record.
Led by Producer/Engineer Charlie Waymire, our team assists artists through the entire creative process including recording, mixing, mastering, and video production.
At Ultimate Studios, Inc we understand that the recording process is just the beginning. That's why we have a full team to help you create an online presence with full web development, SEO, advertising coaching and designing for Facebook, RUclips and Google.
Our ultimate goal is to help bands and artists build a strong brand for a lasting career!
Man, as someone who is obsessed with tracking drums, I have to say you easily have the best drum recording channel on the internet. Very informational and entertaining. Well done.
Thank you! I'm obsessed with recording anything but I'm a drummer by trade so I spend a lot of time on them. Plus I think it's one of the harder instruments to record well ("well" being relative) and also one of the instruments that garners the most experimentation.
I appreciate you taking the time to watch and comment!
I'm a little late but I have to agree with Mr. Fisher. I've watched so many videos on recording drums and your channel has had the biggest impact on the quality and simplicity of my recordings. I'm currently experimenting with your 1 mic setup (technically two cuz I'm ruining an XY configuration with 2 condensers about 4 feet in front of the kick). I never thought I could get a good overall sound with just one mic placement until I tried it. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and skill.
Adds air to the room and really opens up the kit. Very cool! I will test this out.
It brings more clarity, so good ☺🎙
Wow. It's crazy how much high end detail this adds for being next to the floor in front of the kick.
Those toms sound fantastic. It would be great if you could do a video on how you get that sound!
this sounds tight! great way to use a spare SDC with a minimal mic technique
Very cool , great playing too
I began using 2 Crown PZM's back in 1983 for live show's. Placing one on each side of the Kick. These two mic's alone picked up everything with the no phasing problem's regardless of surface or other mic's. Back then those mic's cost me $1200.00 each. They were well worth the cost.
Sounds more details~
bring the drum kit back to life~
This is awesome! Glad youtube suggested this video to me! Thank you sir!
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for watching!
dude!!! thanks for all information!!! I´m learning every day thanks to yours videos. big hug from argentina
I love this trick, I think it adds a fine trace of air to the kits dynamics. Its all about how we use it
Killer drum sound, thanks again for another great video!
Great video... cool sound, easy trick!! thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)
Definitely trying this out on my next session
Amazing!
One of my fav channels. Keep it up dude!
Mike Heffernan Thank you Mike!!!!
I'd love to see a video with an actual boundary mic, either for room or for a kick drum recording. There's lots of info on any other kind of mics, event contact mics, but for boundary not so much. I must admit I just recently learned about them.
You'll have to try it yourself ! Get a cheap Behringer B19A. I have one and it's pretty great so far.
Rocking those Massenburg OHs! :D Great one. thanks guys!
I like how it prevents too much low end and muddy high end from traditional room mic set up.
Or use it as a snaredrum enhancer: sidechaining the floormic...:) Thanks a lot manfor this great video!!!
Jeroen Simons Great idea!
Dude! I am positively shocked how much that mic opens up the ride! The next time I record in a hard surface floor space, this is happening!
adamwasthefirstman You can also try using it on a wall. If the floor has carpet. Just raise it up and down the wall until you get the desired effect/frequency response desired. I did this a few years ago at the Potluck Audio Conference. I was doing some recording seminars for Audio-Technica in the hotel suites and everyone thought I was nuts when I started using the wall on the opposite side of the room. But it opened up the kit and cymbals nicely! Thanks for watching!!!
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Very good episode
Good technique :). By the looks of it, it's a Cardioid mic looking down? Which means it's seeing the room with the back mostly. Have you thought of using an OMNI?
It's seeing what is between the capsule and the floor. Basically the distance between the 2 acts as a filter. The cardioid pattern is what makes it effective (assuming you like the sound it produces:) I have done it with omni mics as well but it's not quite the same since the omni pattern sees more area. At the moment I can't remember what video I did that with but there is one that I used an Audio-Technica omni mic against a wall. I'll try and find it. Thank you for watching and commenting!!
Fantastic! keep experimenting goods drum mic techniques Charlie, thanks.
Great advice. Thanks.
I use the wall mic all the time !!!!
Try the same set-up but with an omnidirectional microphone if you can.
Love it. I'd like to see a shootout of this method, along with something like an AT or Beyer boundary mic, you know the 'real thing' those can sound good too I think
Hi Charlie... Nicely done .. I like the Bonham vibe with the groove and sound flavor that the PZM ish' front mic ads to the sound ... The concrete floor reflections on the condenser mic is a bonus too. I do have a few of the Crown PZM mics and a modified old Realistic Radio Shack PZM that I think sounds even better than the more expensive Crowns.mall arsenal of mics. The mod parts only cost around $10-$15.
I tend to go for more of the minimalist mic set up due to set up restrctions and budget but really do aspire to a smaller set up and fewer mics with a nice open tuning type sound.
I just subscribed but have been checking out your mic set up tips and approach.. fan for awhile now!
Thanks for posting some good strong content and your style of delivery is clear and refreshing.
Brian 👂🎶🥁
Brian - I have an old RS PZM - I'd be interested to know more about the mod or if you can provide a link. Thanks!
awesome!
Quality stuff as always charlie, really enjoyed this :)
Quick question: how do you centre the snare when doing stereo room mics? It's been driving me nuts recently! Cheers.
It can be tricky sometimes. Especially if you’re going for wide stereo rooms. If the room is big enough you can put the mics far enough away that you wont’ notice it as much. Sometimes I don’t pan my rooms all the way out because of this.
One way around this is to use coincident pairs like a Blumlein with ribbon mics. That makes it much easier to get a centered kick and snare.
With spaced pairs I don’t run them too wide in the room. If they are far enough away and have some compression on them you’ll still get a cool room sound.
There are times when the kick and snare pull a little to each side. Sometimes it drives me nuts too but I have discovered that a lot of time you’ll never notice in context. So unless they are really off always pull them up with the drums and music to see if you can even tell and if they give you the desired effect. If they do go make some music! If they don’t keep adjusting. Try different heights too.
I hope this helps a bit!
Ultimate Studios, Inc cheers fella, that's some seriously useful stuff thank you so much :)
While this is a fascinating idea, I find myself not really liking it in practice. The snare in particular sounds a bit harsher and more abrasive when blending in the floor mic, I don't know if that's purely the sound of the mic itself or maybe also a bit of bad phase combination between the other mics and the floor mic. Still quite interesting.
That's part of what I actually liked about it. How it effected the snare and gave it some energy. Some of it probably is phase and some of it is what frequencies the mic is featuring. Different mics definitely sound different though. Most of the time when I use this I have the mics waaaay back in the room and compress the hell out of them on the way in. Conceptually it can be quite cool though.
@@Ultimatestudiosinc it's definitely a matter of taste. I like the spacial effect, but you've already got a pretty big sound with the high overheads and I'd personally be very happy to leave things there, though with the floor mic track available, I'd be tempted to use it at a low level in the mix, just enough that you could hear a difference when muting the track.
I'm definitely going to try something like this for myself. It's a cool idea and am nterested in playing around with some variants on this approach.
That's a good point with the overheads. 9 out of 10 times when I'm using extra room mics the kit has a ton of close mics on it and the songs are pretty busy. Having the different spacial mics gives me flavors to choose from. I put the minimal setup up just so there was some context but it really needs music to hear how beneficial the "room" mic is. It does seem a bit like overkill with no music context.
I appreciate the comments! Let us know if you discover some cool alternatives!
waaay too solid content for 14K subs. Keep it up!
I will start to say this to almost every review video i see, when the voice of the video is recorded, is not treated taking care of our ears, so the voice is always punchy, pinchy, hitting the ears, voice should be treated just as music, to avoid hurting ears, as it could lead to stop watching the video, or obligues to change volume, it happens to a lot of great professionals out there, others like Gregory Scott from Kush After Hours or Ken Lewis are doing it right today, just trying to help on that. The content is awesome, what i'm wondering is about phase cancellation, it's obvious this mic way of doing goes against the phase cancellation or comb filter effect, which is great, but i'm wondering what would happen if you use 2 of this in different places, would that bring phase cancellation? would it be good at any level?
Thanks for the content again, we are following with gratitude, thank you!
u rule bro
I bought six boundary microphone so I'm just wondering how to use them they don't seem to pick up voices not unless that you yelling into them they would be perfect for recording a rocket launch without having to adjust gain
Nice tip. Even more impressed by how big the toms sound without close miking. I assume most of that is down to be a controlled drummer but o noticed that you have set the OHs over both the rack and floor. Was this intentional? Either way sounds awesome!
Ben Davies Hey Ben! Yes it is intentional. My preferred overhead setup is a tweaked version of something I’ve seen George Massenburg do. It’s not your typical LF/RT but instead splits the kit between the toms. This makes it possible to get nice overall kit sounds with just the overheads. Toms are well represented, snare is centered and even and the cymbals don’t take over as much as they do in a traditional OH setup. It also makes it possible to even out harsh cymbals or drummers that bash their cymbals. :)
Thanks for watching and leaving a comment!!
Ultimate Studios, Inc will be giving this a try in my next session. 👍
I run into your video after looking for boundary microphones and got me researching into ways to improve my live recording of classical concerts that sometimes give you no time to setup.
I found that by following this principle you mentioned to create this boundary mic on our own, I could potentially do more than one centimeter… maybe I am wrong but i wanted to ask you this:
I found that 35000hz (35khz) is about 1cm in length and that’s way beyond the human hearing. So in a way it would be possible to face a mic down and have at a lesser distance to the floor and still get a pure sound that is way far from the human listening spectrum?
Could you tell me if I am wrong? Couldn’t this be another way of miking for me?
Of course I am thinking of reflecting surfaces?
If this would be so, then I was wondering if there would be a way to make a Mid side technique out of this idea. 🤣
Fun idea! The high ringing frequency in the floor mic was really annoying, and I feel like when you faded it in, the stereo image got messed up. But I definitely think I will try this out :D
Hey Elias thanks for the comment. I don't hear any high end "ringing" anywhere. There is definitely a contrast to how the floor mic and overheads perceive the high but I hear no ringing. At loud volumes any mono mic will make the stereo image feel smaller because it centers all the sounds. For these videos I tend to over exaggerate (at least at first) what the mic(s) do just so it's easy to hear. In context of music it would depend on the desired effect. If you come up with something cool with this let us all know!
@@Ultimatestudiosinc I really should have made a timestamp where I meant cause now I'm struggling to find it myself haha! Maybe what I meant was 9:00 onwards where the 1k ring that's been noticed from the snare is enhanced with the compression? So definitely not high end then..
I understand, will definitely get back to you if I try this technique out (or the wall technique!). If you haven't seen the wall technique involving piezo elements (I saw it on HoboRec), that could be interesting for you to mess with too!
The floor made of cement or wood?
Solid
In my engineering class we used this thing called garbage mic where you wrap a microphone with a towel and put it on the floor next to the kick or around the drumset to get a good low end muffled sound
I'd EQ out the whistly sizzly thing that's popping out from the PZM.
Why just mono though? Why not two boundary mics, hard-panned L and R?
I was wondering too if that would work well
Could you duplicate and phase reverse on channel of it? What might that do?
Charlie has 9 lives and has been to parts of RUclipsland we can only dream of
I prefer the sound without that floor mic but nice experimentation!
I see you have removed the windscreen of the 650. I have one and it's one of those mics I never really use because the "windscreen basket" creates a very aggressive (imo) resonance in the high mid. I could probably make it sound decent but I always have better options. I remember once swapping it with an sm58 windscreen, It was better. I don't think I ever really used with no windscreen. I believe they should improve the design of the basket or something. I usually love AT products. The build quality is great. I've been using a AE2500 (their first Dual element mic I think) on snares for quite some times now (try it if you can!). I also have the 250DE which is very good on floor tom and interesting on kick drums.
obviously it would be different, but i'm wondering your opinion of using this if the floor is thinly carpeted?
i'm thinking if i try this, maybe putting a wood board over the floor where i place the mic so the sound doesn't get too sucked up into the carpet.
anyways thanks as always for your tips
The carpet would definitely soak up some highs. Which, if you have a really lively room, might not be a bad idea. I have put a small piece of foam a few inches in front of the mic before (between the mic and drum kit) just to keep some nasty cymbal sizzle out.
Using a small piece of wood over the carpet would definitely give you some reflection back. I would recommend trying that for sure.
I tested the cement (my natural floor) and a small piece of birch when I was filming but there was no difference at all. Perhaps a thicker piece of wood would have made more of a difference but I didn't have any.
Let us know how it goes for you!
Ultimate Studios, Inc
ok awesome- thanks for the reply
If i were to use this in a L,R config should i use an omni or cardioid pattern?
do the side gills/slits (for want of the correct name) on the mic capsule mean it's picking up sound directly from the room and not just what's reflected from the floor? thus making this not really a PZM exercise? a 'true' PZM mic attached to a metal plate wouldn't have this from my experience.
Whats the pickup pattern on that condencer?
Try it with a L/R PZM set up!
I've been talking with a few other people about this. I have a couple different PZM mics but still need a few more then I'll definitely do that! Thanks for watching!
Does this work in a room with a rug?
Isn't this hi mid hiss on cymbals annoying you? Very obvious when you add the PZM mic in. After compression it became even worse. Can ou EQ it out and still have a usable room sound? Tried a gobo in front of the mic?
Why are you leaving a gap between the mic and the floor? Would the vibrations from the floor transmit to the body of a mic and and just make lo-end rumble?
What SDC mic is this?
Great idea, thanks for sharing!
Hey! No the cymbals don't annoy me. That's part of the sound of this type of technique. In a mix it's pretty cool. But that is the type of sound you get so if it's not something you like it might not work for you. Of course you can eq the mic or try a different mic as well. This is a boundary type technique so there has to be a gap between the floor and the mic because the mic is essentially using the floor and a surface to capture the sound.
All of the gear used is in the description. Thanks for watching!
@@Ultimatestudiosinc The amount of cymbals with such technique is not a problem, I just heard some really annoying resonant frequency band in your presentation (I guess around 5k) that really didn't do any good when you mixed the PZM mic in.
I watched your wall mic video aswell, just tried it in my own place. My live room is about 30 square meters, so it's not a big place. Set up two sm57's against the walls and just moved them around until I tuned the cymbal sound to my taste. Sounds incredible when it's really aggressively smashed by something like 1176 all buttons in, or SoundToys DevilLoc - the room is three times bigger immediately.
This tip can really save my future drum recordings, a big room is something I lacked for a long time. Thanks again!
Any thoughts on EQ'ing on the way in vs. saving it for the mix process? Any advantages to doing it on the way in?
Yet another cool technique for me to try, thanks for all the things you post. I liked the wall mic too. This might be a dumb question but I'll ask anyway, would this micing technique still work with a carpeted floor? Any suggestions on getting a better close miced snare sound?
I don't think it would work that well (just a hunch) but I guess you can always place a piece of wood or something over the carpet.
@@kutnersuicide Thanks I thought that'd be the answer but figured I'd just ask the question anyway.
Is the floor cement? Can it work on rug?
Sounds good because of the Drummer!😂
I have a AKG Boundary Mic and I don't know to use it. I am a pianist
the date is February 19 2020, did I miss the Live show about connecting the patchbay at home if I did can I get acess to the Video
Cool man I have one small condenser I am not using and will try this technique. I also have a sm 58 any suggestions on what I could use it for on my drums I do have already close mics in and out kick top and bottom snare and two oh. Thanks Again for sharing your knowledge
Try using the 58 as a room mic...if you have enough of a room. There's an older(er) video on this channel where Charlie uses an SM57 in that way and gets some great sounds. I imagine an SM58 would work well in the same application.
Back in the analog days when a buddy and I started a studio, our "main room" consisted of the untreated living room of a rental house. And we had two mics. An SM58 and an AKG C414. We used to record drums with just the SM58. We experimented with all kinds of mic positions taking notes on stand height, mic direction, etc. And we found some KILLER sounding sweet spots. To this day, when people listen to those old recordings, they comment on how great the drums sound. :D
Hey thanks for the input I will give it a try worst could happen is I dont use it
That is not really how a PZM works. This way you create a lot of fase artefacts.
Use a omni in this kind of setup or just lay the cardioid mic flat on the floor is much more consistent and better freq response
Just roll it off at 600hz and you're good, no need to worry about phasing.
Giuliano artifacts are still Audible wenn I do that. Even close to 1k.
Wenn I Chance the setup to laying it parallel on the floor these artifacts seem to disappear. And it is a lot easier Setup and have more directional control and the whole audio spectrum is usable.
Ok, well then good tip, i've never tried it so I didn't know.
Doest it just block the front end of the mic, making the back element that is supposed to provide the negative side for the cardioid effect just be the one to pick up the sound... try this with an omni mic, is what id reckon might give a different result.
Of course using a mic with a different pattern will get a different result. The point of this is to filter the sound through the gap between the capsule and the surface it's pointed at. So the the mic is mainly picking up reflected sound off the surface. I've done it against my wood walls with great effect too. The idea is to get the capsule as close to the boundary as possible. Although I've done in with and SM57 and captured some cool sounds.
@@Ultimatestudiosinc you seem to be missing my point. I am saying that you're not really picking up the sound from the surface. You're rather blocking one side of the capsule, that contributes the positive side of the cardioid. Meaning the signal you're hearing isn't the surface. Its rather the signal that gets picked up from the negative side of the mic capsule, since you've almost blocked off the positive side. Practically it should become an omni if you block off the front. But since you left a small gap, there is no telling what the actual full effect is. One this is for certain. Sounds phasey and pretty bad.
Also, the rear side of these mics isn't tuned to pick up the sound faithfully. They mostly need to get some of the mids and lower frequencies. They don't need to worry about the highs, as those are directional anyway, even with Omnis. Im definitely simplifying a lot.. but yeah. I really think you aren't getting what you think you're getting. And I saw some other ppl point out the same thing.
@@Ultimatestudiosinc as I said before, this would make sense with an omni, because then you're actually going to get more of the effect you're after.
idk man sounded kinda shabby to me
Why does all this shit work when you do it, but it never works when I do it?? Lol! I suppose if you don't have a hardwood floor in your studio you could slip a clipcoard under there? Or, perhaps, stick it in a basement side-room, or something... Put a cookie sheet under it!
These type of setup are more situational accent mics and will add a different texture than a normal room mic setup. That doesn't mean they will work every time. When it works it works great but sometimes it's not right. That's part of the fun of recording...the discovery!
@@Ultimatestudiosinc Right, right! yeah, thanks for saying that! Gotta find out what works for you for each, specific situation...
you really remind me of Dave Grohl
Don't do your A/B switch immediately after a fill. Come on man.
The most important thing is, your kit must be good sounding before you put it on mics.
Hammer meet nail! You're absolutely correct!
good but unnecessary
That is not really how a PZM works. This way you create a lot of fase artefacts.
Use a omni in this kind of setup or just lay the cardioid mic flat on the floor is much more consistent and better freq response