Panzer Tactics - "Blitzkrieg" Years - Platoon
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- This video covers German Panzer Tactics based on official German training regulations from 1941. It covers training, crew requirements, Panzer Formations, Organization, specific combat scenarios like fighting anti-tank guns, combat against tanks and bunkers. Additionally, there is a complete combat example of breaking through the enemy line with a Panzer Platoon.
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» SOURCES «
H. Dv. 470/7: Ausbildungsvorschrift für die Panzertruppe - Heft 7. Die mittlere Panzerkompanie, Mai 1941.
H. Dv. 470/6: Ausbildungsvorschrift für die Panzertruppe - Heft 6. Die leichte Panzerkompanie, September 1940.
H. Dv. 470/10: Ausbildungsvorschrift für die Panzertruppe - Heft 10. Januar 1941.
H. Dv. 470/3a: Ausbildungsvorschrift für die Kraftfahrtruppe - Heft 3a. Die Panzerspähkompanie. 1935.
Jentz, Thomas: Panzer Truppen: The Complete Guide to the Creation & Combat Employment of Germany's Tank Force . 1933-1942: The Complete Guide to the Creation and Combat Employment of Germany's Tank Force.
Kauffmann, Kurt: Panzerkampfwagenbuch, 1940.
Reibert: Der Dienstunterricht im Heere. Ausgabe für den Schützen der Schützenkompanie, 1940.
#PanzerTactics,#Tactics,#Panzer
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How are there no replies on this comment after 5 months
(Love the German pronunciation)
As a noob I read the book 'infantry attacks by 'Rommel'' and truth be told I found some difficulty in understanding a few chapters so if a playlist was created to explain each chapter I think it would help us all
haha geil das festeckt Zeichen ist aus Skyrim ^^
Military History Visualized What you said in the end was amazing because I’m doing that for my Milsim I’ll be Haigs these tactics
original German PanzerGrenadiere tactics video 1943.
ruclips.net/video/yMj16ieMCt4/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/C4pCNiYHh6k/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/anSa1zI7uiQ/видео.html
"Now for a challenge, try those tactics in War thunder with a random team." You sadist.
this requires much luck and charisma
you best name yourself young hitler for this
Yep :/ haha
@@jesuschristusnumberonefan My name in War Thunder is M1chaelWittm4nn (Michael Wittman doesnt work)
@@mc-sillix961 mine is dinorenars u can friend req me
In team of two even this will not work as there is virtual little to no cooperation. Yet .. . it can happen occasionally. In War Thunder you learn I did that enemy may appear in the position previously guarded by my friendly units. What you learn there that recon and good sights are the most important. Then good firepower. The armour is relatively not important. Main function of armour was to prevent the accidently destruction of the tank. Hit directly was seldom good for survival.
Radio Operator:"Clear dialect-free prenunciation". Well that cuts out the whole of Bavaria and Austria.
Us southerners are not incapable of speakin standard german.... we just usually choose not to.
Daniel Băț _gaats no? San se meschugge?_ German: ???
EDIT: I probably mixed up two distinct dialects. To my shame, I'm an Austrian who grew up in Germany, thus only being able to speak German with Austrian accent, but not correct German nor Austrian.
PS: for those wondering, what I've wrote: _what's wrong with you? Are you nuts?_
Is there any English dialect that would be similarly unintelligible for normal English speakers?
Meschuge is a yiddish word, innit?
Václav Fejt yes. We Austrians have a lot of loanwords from French, Italian, Yiddish, Slavic and even some Arabic. We also have some remnants of extinct cases etc.
fun fact, a German living in Austria mistook me for a Northern(!) German this week, since my mind unconsciously switches to "German" when facing Germans usually.
Last time I came this early, Goering still had a Luftwaffe...
Bismarck Don’t you mean Herman Meier?
Last time I was this early Stalin still had 5 Field Marshals
You guys are hilarious. ! keeping up the humor on such morbid subject. .
The rank of field Marshal didn't exist in the Soviet Union. You mean "Marshal of the USSR" which was an honorific rank given to the most successfull army commanders/army generals. In 1935 they were 5, in 1938 (after the execution of two which were considered responsible of an attempted coup and a third for incompetence during the battle) and the promotion of other two (Timoshenko and Shaposhnikov) they were 4. In 1945 they were seven since three more army generals had been promoted. However, no advantages over the rank of army general existed.
Podemos URSS Yea seems like accidentally confused Soviet marshal rank with German field marshals lol
I've heard a story from a ex German tanker explaining that they won the practice wars with the US in Canada. I asked why, he said because of their tanks and because of their tactics. The US tankers apparently were less patient and attacked right away when they spotted an enemy, whereas the Germans first got into position, targeted all targets, and waited for the best moment to open fire. I asked how much of a difference it yielded, he said, something like 9: 1. I cannot imagine such huge difference, but I love to learn more about modern tank tactics and how they differ from others and the past.
ookiemand the problem with the American tankers lately is that they are deployed too often and don't get the time it takes to truly master armoured tactics. We've noticed this in Canada when we verse them too
Well, a similar difference was seen on the first great-scale tank vs. tank battle ever: the battle of Brody. The Germans destroyed 800 Soviet tanks while losing only 200. The German air superiority, and better coordination was key on a mayor victory in which half of the armored units of the Soviet Southwestern Front were disbanded.
Podemos URSS It also helped that they faced nothing but outdated light tanks. Definitely makes it easier when the toughest tank is a BT-7.
ookiemand citation needed
I personally saw this happen as a combat engineer attached to an armored company of Abrams while training at Hohenfels. The first scout BMP the tankers saw they apparently went berserk and took off chasing-which led the whole company into a draw with a surrounding ridgeline. Our whole force including our detachment was wiped out in an ambush. My platoon sergeant lectured us in our AAR (after-action report) stating "It's why we call them DATS-dumb ass tankers!."
It needs to be remembered that WW2 tanks did not have the gun stabilisation systems taken for granted today. This meant that fire on the move was grossly inaccurate except at point blank range. Keeping some tanks static was essential to get accurate fire against a difficult target like an AT gun.
Another excellent and informative video. Goes to show how difficult it would be to be a tank crewman.
Especially the tension knowing at any moment 'contact' could mean your light tank bursting into flame.
Best to know what exactly you are doing or else to the noose you go.
This is exactly the type of content we want.
It impresses me that Panzer tactics are almost identical to TODAY's infantry platoon tactics. Fixing the enemy position with a portion of the platoon, while the rest flank it. Fire and movement. Concentration on enfilade fire, where possible. Wedge formation so every tank can fire to the front or sides while keeping the whole formation reasonably tight. Almost every aspect is mirrored in infantry tactics.
The biggest difference is that tanks normally should breach / shock an area. Something that infantry can't do or very very rare
Various military all over the world study and implement german blitzkrieg
In the British Army it's called fire and manoeuvre, civvies call it skirmishing; but we didn't always use it in the British Army, which is one reason why the Boers beat us in the first Boer War (which we lost), particularly in the last battle, Majuba, where British troops were actually on top of a hill looking down on a Boer camp, yet the Boers used fire and manoeuvre coming uphill and using dead ground i.e. dips out of sight of the British line of fire, and chased them off the hill; since then we have called the Second Boer War (which we won) ''The'' Boer War because that way it covers up the fact that we had lost the previous one. So it isn't really a new infantry tactic.
@@simonh6371 There's this myth going around now, that the allies over exaggerated the strength, and ability of the 3rd Reich. I guess to make victory appear like a bigger deal. This goes against what I've been told, and was wondering if maybe you have an opinion on that?
Germany built modern tactics and doctrines in the Second World War, they just didn’t survive to continue them (well kinda)
One day, i'll have enough money to support you on patreon, in the meantime, keep on the good work. Each video is more interesting then the last
Vincent Gaulin One day you will be able to spare one or two bucks each month? ;)
SAVE all of EUROPE. The germans went one extreem during the 1930's and now they are going to the other extreem. I say this as a German, the germans are much to robotic in their thinking and that is what most europeans also say about them. For example, the spanish say that the germans have a quadratic head "los hermanos tienen una cabeza cuadrada".
DOSRetroGamer
I don't own spare money
Hermann Steinrucks: My tip to germans: you as a people seriously need to stop being so trusting in your government.
Even with world war 2 in hindsight, germans are still culturally way too trusting in government and regulations.
It had disastrous results for you last time, and it's not looking good now either.
The government isn't always right. In fact most governments across the world are highly inefficient and rarely make decisions with the best interests of their people in mind.
Provocateur and then save Sweden while they're at it. Unless it's too late and Sweden as it once was is lost forever...
You can't use real life tactics in-game, because there is neither fear nor suppression. People will suicide themselves for non-guaranteed kills (which they can often score, because of easy inputs and masterful, perfect crews).
idk. some of those tactics works pretty well in Men of War :P
True to a degree but it can still help. Fire and maneuver still works. People still look for cover when being fired at. In Both WT and WoT it will work. A teammate aiming a gun at them will force them to hide. While you just go around and flank.
If the enemy turn towards you instead, your team can instead be the one advancing. in WT, you can get one-shot so the risk is very high though you can respawn. in WoT, you can't respawn but you do have HP to maybe survive a hit or two. But taking hits is not ideal regardless of both games
And in both games, you are more accurate when you are stationary.
In ArmA it works out really well. In fact so well, that you get slaughtered if you don't.
Not everything specifically, however in a broader sense I've had pretty good luck in WoT if you get natural cooperation and support with a couple of mediums working together intuitively. With four or five tanks working together (provided the players have their ducks in a row) you can collapse an entire flank by direct outflanking and achieving local numerical superiority.
You also don't have the kind of situational issues some of those tanks would have had. A tank never breaks down, crewmen aren't sick, starving or fatigued.
Thanks for quoting the original German, it adds an air of historical authenticity, and makes it a pleasurable experience.
You had me at, "Remember, every Reichmark helps! " I am officially joining Patreon just for that statement and your awesome videos! Love the sense of humor and the excellent videos! Danke! :-)
"The Blitzkrieg Years" sounds like some Nostalgia bait 80s movie or mediocre sitcom :D
I would watch it.
It's like 'The Wonder Years' except a German version starring Heinz Guderian pre-Barbarossa.
@@robertmaybeth3434 before he cot batshit crazy and kills everyone?
ruclips.net/video/sEGeHxF0tF4/видео.html
They already have the theme song covered
ITS SO WEIRD IN THE BLITZ KRIG, BLOTZ KRIG, YEARS!
sitcom? maybe a nazist one i dont even know what a sitcom is exactly, btw im not a retarded nazi hater
I did this in world of tanks 10 minutes ago with my platoon and it works pretty well in mid tiers
Now try that in WT.
私は日本人は知らないExemplary Lesbian Hentai actually this can t ever work in random que cause you can t cooperate with your entire team, but lot s of these tactics are used in clan battles...
Thank you for another exceptionally interesting video. The tactics you discussed are very similar to what we were taught in the U.S. Cavalry and Armor school. After the war, there were quite a number of studies that looked at what the Germans did. It would be interesting to see how much we were influenced by the German tactics.
These tactics looked very familiar and were quite similar to what I used as a young platoon leader.
Bundeswehr Lehrsatz: "Keine Bewegung ohne Feuer, kein Feuer ohne Bewegung"
Because you have no clue of electronics... Yeah right :D! I expected you to comment on your dialect or accent and I completely lost it. Damn I love your channel. PS. I'm Finnish myself, and I dread our accent in English.
But Finns speaking Swedish sounds amazing so you've got that going for you guys.
He doesn't have a dialect in Deutsch only in english
@@HD-mp6yy The other way around. He speaks English with a heavy accent and German with the local dialect.
And some people say the Germans have no sense of humour....
I would like to use these tactics in my Table top game of 40k.. maybe not so much in the new edition, due to the tanks are now able to shoot in any direction, including hull mounted weapons. I enjoy the Fire Arch's, so I play earlier editions.
Your videos on small scale tactics are my absolute favourite, 10/10
It's useful not only for the World of Tanks, but also for a fantastic "Panzer" board game by GMT Games. Thanks for the vid!!! 😃👍
The whole blueprint for the mechanized army was laid out in Gen. Charles De Gaulle's book "Army Of The Future" written in 1934.
You read references to the panzer bell. I imagine it was a formation of necessity but I can never find an actual explanation. The closest I have gotten is heavy tanks in the front light tanks on the flanks. I'm aware it isn't entirely appropriate here as it is used later in the war; but if you could cover it that would be great.
One of the best and most informative videos on the platoon level tactics of the Panzerwaffen.
I will certainly be attempting these tactics in MOWAS2!
This channel is very interesting and educational. Keep up the good work👍
As a former serviceman, pretty much the same tactics apply in today's armored combat.
Sadly, in World of Tanks the optimal tactic is for everyone in a group to aim for the same target, to reduce the enemy DPS as fast as possible. Not representative of real tank combat.
technically, it is historical. In WoT you have arcade combat, so you do not need to worry to much about gravity pulling your shell down(aka aiming high) aiming on the move, wind, rain etc. This means you might need multiple attempts if you want to hit an enemy tank. So focus fire is logical. Suppressing fire, on the other hand, is different.
Quaskie Are you that Quaskie from the Stalker subreddit by any chance?
Quaskie Lol, its nice to see someone interested in two rare things I happen to be interested in too. I barely find anyone interested in one of them let alone two. Would you mind if I pmed you from reddit to talk?
There is shell arc in the game, but the program automatically calculates for you based on range. So it's extremely difficult to lob a shell over a hill or obstacle. It *can* be done, but usually it is the large caliber, low velocity "derp" guns that can pull it off more easily, and it is usually done on accident I find. The bigger problem with WoT and their accuracy models are the condensed ranges. You can't see a tank more than ~515m away, and most field engagements are less than 200m and city fights are literally bumper to bumper. This is the less historical aspect. You can't really dig into trajectory when you're shooting point blank, sniping a commander cupola. I can't remember exactly, but iirc the bigger tank battles on the eastern front could typically involve shots up to or more than 2000m. History buffs, correct me if I'm wrong there.
Massing effective firepower is a technique that can be used on the real battlefield. During an attack, this would be ideal to cause a break in the enemy line and either suppress them for the flankers, or create a breach to break through. For the defense, you want your firepower evenly distributed so there are no weak points in the line. This is where sectors of fire come into play. Each fighting position gets a piece of the pie, and they are expected to not deviate into another piece.
War Thunder is a much better game in terms of realism.
How about a steam where you try to use these tactics in a game such as Warthunder?
I actually was thinking about Steel Panthers, because there one could see it better and also it has a suppression mechanic.
Or good ol Company of Heroes.
Or in Men of War Assault squad 2
Oh a video of this being put to action would be epic.
well, both in CoW and MoW you can't do this, because you don't have enough units. At most you have one platoon. Not enough space, no smoke, etc. only in Steel Panthers it works.
Thank you, I especially enjoyed the tactics to prevent from being flanked, the diagonal column formation is my favorite. Very informative, great video.
Classic subject topic MHV! Speaking as an Englishman! Love all your hard work at the source material... Keep on, as we say. ;)
this sounds just like infantry tactics...
I was thinking the same thing. Some parts got me thinking about naval tactics as well.
Well both tanks and infantry move and fight across land, so it kind of makes sense that they operate according to roughly the same principles.
Yes precisely - but today's infantry tactics
Ever since accurate mobile stand off weapons were developed it's all about fire and maneuver.
i suppose being invulnerable to small arms fire helps as well...
speaking of which i wonder if there are statistics of tank commanders getting their head sniped or just randomly hit by stuff flying around
Because I have no clue of electronics :D
That was a heck of a crack up. Thumbs up for the self humour.
I am enjoying your talks very much. I donr know how I havent run across your videos before. I search WWII documentaries and videos quite a bit. Now that I have found your channel I will be returning often. thank you.
Can we take a moment to honor every man who has ever fought in the second world war🙏🙏
Lest we forget
I take it this is where our modern 'fire and maneuver' doctrine comes from. I would be a poor radio operator also...so did radio operators tend to be from Northern Germany-the more 'literary' low-German without the heavy dialects and slang of Southern high-German?
i am not sure my mother is from northern Germany and i have lived in southern Germany my whole life and i heard gibberish both here and there don't even get me started at platdeutsch...
@@ronglurak9892 My German teacher in high school, originally from Hamburg claimed my Rheinland-Palatinate (originally part of Hesse pre-WW2) born mom spoke 'Polish German'. My mom wasn't very happy when I told her. My German teacher could tell when my mom was helping me with homework because of her dialect. My mom in turn complains about visiting my cousins in Tubingen and not being able to understand their Swabian so it's all inclusive.
WW2 German tactics are so fascinating
There's a video called "the German infantry squad in action" that is pretty mint. I would say all the tactics used are fascinating because they reflect the time and situation of select army.
Thanks for the video , appreciated ⭐️
8:00
unöfficial ... that Ö killed me. This is a great video about how its done. But that Ö ... oh boy that killed me xD
I would use this for Combat Mission Series. Very useful. Thank you.
Everytime I spawn a Tiger 1 in Battlefield 5 I say "Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausf.E" now. I've also gotten a much better w/vehicles in my war-making videos games due to this channel.
Excellent video. Heinz Guderian a great general, two great books Auchtung Panzer & Panzer Leader. The Australian Armoured Corps tank tactics followed Guderian's model. Thanks, Greg
Nice video. Very illustrative, well informed, nice voice and beautiful german speaking.
You have done so well this tank tactics video
I think you can apply those tatics in Warthunder as long as you try to understand the match by yourself. There are some organization, cause every platoon will go to a certain objective respectively. So you gonna have to be the one to flank them. I did this in a small town map. I couldn't believe that i made my team win by destroying some tanks in the final part of the match which we as loosing badly by suprising them from behind. I also of course got the luck on my side, cause i made some precise shoots. But it can work using the surprise element, which is very important.
Awesome, I remember reading about "Fire and Movement" maneuver in Panzer Aces III.
wow im so happy thanks and i like all of your vids
hey mhv good job on the example battle map. it really adds to the video
@10:33 ; Anti-tank guns hidden on opposite side of large rock formation (to the lower right) Shoots three of the Panzers right up their Hinterreifen,
Panzer III and Panzer IV had differentiated roles. It is not surprising that Panzer IV over-watched Panzer III advances because unlike Panzer III it could fire HE fragmentation rounds to take out enemy AT guns, and other infantry strong points.
Thank you for mak By these types of video keep on doing what you do people like me really appreciate the hard work you put into your videos and I hope you can keep making these amazing and helpful guides.
1:59 "Calm"
*Sees Mako in GuP*
Well, not so much calm...
You should assemble a squad of tactically minded folks and try them out in WT :P
Can you imagine such squad with let's say Tigers II?
stop teasing me with Königstigers, I'm at PzKpfw. IV Ausführung H now.
This wouldn't be possible, as the largest individual unit size of War Thunder is three players.
@@RedShocktrooperRST four
I might be using these tactics and others in my warthunder clan! I will link to this "Informational Training Video"
Have you ever considered a Military History Visualized convention? it would be cool to have some panel Q&A's with some popular youtube military historians
Used this in Mowas2 (Robz of course) and I had a single medium panzer platoon hold a side for about 80% of the match until a couple IS-2s showed up.
Then I brought more panzers.
The joke at 2.23 took a few seconds to sync. Nice one
I feel like i'm learning, now let's try these tactics for calming down my mother when she's angry
Love the scattering of umlauts over the o's.
3:29 "Thugh Life and Stug Life"
You Just Made Me Imagine A Stug Doing A 360 On a T-34...
And That's Something
'Because I have no clue of electronics' just killed me.
French tank commander: where are l’germans?
Another tank commander: Behind us!
Very good video! Thanks for having made it
very nice! Reminds me of our AC repair guy at our condo way back 69-70, who had been in 16th Panzer. How could I look him up? Love your insights, and sweet graphics too!
this guy has knowledge most people could only dream of
Interesting and educational. Nicely presented.
I wonder if deploying smoke to make them think that you are retreating and then charging at them was a thing back then. I know thats one thing i would try.
Nah, if the enemy retreat behind the smoke we'll have more time to pushing forward or reload and prepaid time and when U charge U will be dead
I always love playing RO2 at Gumrak and usually being the only one on the German team attacking a flank instead of rolling over the ridges or through the middle. (Come on guys, is it so hard to roll up the left flank of objective B so the T-34's can't sit hull-down at the ammo dump?!?!…)
Great video as always. Thank you sir for the well-researched information. I get so sick of hearing people on "history" videos (of any sort, not just military) say "according to Wikipedia..." Thank you for taking time to look at scholarly sources.
Super Kanal und sehr hilfreich und passend für meine Let's Plays! Dank dir!
I spent about 4 years in Germany with the US Army, I enjoy the fact that you use both languages. Thanks.
I think it is safe to say that this collection of videos on German land tactics will become a legendary piece of data on the web.
Just discovered you channel. Awesome; couldn't tear myself away for 2 hours! Will be sending my son(101st AASLT) links to gain a better understanding of tactics
thanks for the vid really came in helping me understand panzer tactics
6:16 This kind of reminds me to a Soviet infantry tactic for platoons (divided into three or four squads): one squad advances while the rest give suppresion fire and then they switch roles.
I think the germans and soviets build they doctrines around the same concept
Fantastic video
You surprised you didn't mention the advantage of keeping your head outside the vehicle. Whitman among others advocated commanding the tank from that position vs commanding from the buttoned up position. Great vid as always.
Again, well-done research.
The Sudden strike4 is the one of the best game to try this tactics!
Hello
I have a question, maybe even a suggestion for a video:
The usage and effectiveness of smoke in combat. Maybe even how it evolved/changed over time. I would love to see on this for infantry tanks and as a great bonus, on ship to ship combat.
Love your videos, have seen them all.
edit: the animations from 8:20 onward reminded me of my favorite games, close combat (especially 3,4,5 of which my favorite was for 4 due to the automatic platoon distribution within a company.). One great aspect about these was that you could play from both sides, and at least for close combat 3, a revolutionary idea for me at that age was that a lost battle did not equate with a lost game.
Can u do a video on German paratrooper tactics
Fallschirmjäger
Fantastically informative, could you also do structure for the Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung units?
Why are you so underrated? Your content is amazing!
coz he says the truth and analized real FACT he don't talk neither reinforced myths and propaganda!!
Ravine, how about the hill? If it's too long to cross around?
Very similar to what is done today in tank operations.
This is like right out of the US Infantry manual. Seems like there's a universal understanding of how land tactics should work.
Is there was a tactic for panzer when they crossing the bridge under AT cannon fire?
Keep up the good work. Great videos
Very informative and interesting. Danke.
So, not only is a squad ideal, but a platoon ideal, ASWELL, as a front line ideal, is to flank the force.
12:00 i',ll start now every match asking "have you seen the video on Panzer tactics by MHV?" :D
You can recreate these tactics in Graviteam tactics, one of the most realistic realtime tactical battle simulation games.
What about bridges? That's the easiest way to screw up!
For one the bridge might not carry the weight of the tank, especially when damaged. It could be rigged.
Moreover my grandfather told me about four tanks crossing one and being shot one after the other by a soviet AT canon, thus blocking the entire bridge.
Sidenote: after that mishap, the command ordered air-support (StuKa) to get rid of those canons. From what I've heard they didn't find a trace of the crew, but the canons looked all well despite being tossed through the air by the blast of bombs.
Another excellent video, great work and cheers :).
Great video! Is it possible to integrate these graphics with real combat footage of the Wehrmacht? That would be so awesome...
So roughly speaking a panzer company consisted of around 20 -22 panzers. I guess the next rung up on panzer formations was either the panzer battalion or regiment. How many panzer companies equaled a panzer regiment/battalion? How many regiments/battalions equaled a panzer brigade? My reading shows that a panzer battalion pretty much equaled a panzer division insofar as the division's armor went. Comments/suggestions?
If you haven't done one yet, please consider a video analyzing the battle of Kursk.
Due to personal family history and my chosen occupation, I was always fascinated by the Ordungspolizei and the role they played in defending "Fortress Europe" during World War 2. My Opa was dragged into the forces of the Third Reich as a young police officer from Munich in 1939, being attached to the Wermacht for the Invasion of Poland. He had joined the police in 1936 not thinking that three years later he'd march into Poland behind one of the fiercest war machines of the 20th century. I know little of his exploits because my Oma took little interest and he died of a heart attack when I was one years old. I love your videos and will donate of course, I have one request...do you know where I can find any orders of battle or organizational charts for the Ordungspolizei in France, Poland, and other occupied areas? There is information aplenty of their part in the atrocities, but little on their day to day occupational duties. You make incredible videos and I'm fascinated by them all.....
t(h)anks for the video MHV
It is so fascinating hearing it in both languages.
watched a few videos...subbed
3:55 panzer at the bottom left: damn I have no group!