Anduril Wildfire I’m gonna start using this quote like everybody else uses famous quotes cause they have nothing to say. This is like the killer of quotes.
"It could be any theme here" is not a good definition for this list... Being able to replace a theme does not make a game themeless... Being themeless is about you not being able to relate the thematic elements to the mechanisms and/or elements of the game...
Camel Up is a good example. It could be anything, of course, it could be elephants or people, but they are camels. The illustration and the components are well represented (just like in Jamaica). In that case Downforce could be anything and most of any other racing game.
I agree.. A themeless game to me is one where the mechanisms cannot be explained by the theme or where I do not know what I represent in the game. Five Tribes is a great example, who am I to decide what group of people needs to move, and where they need to move to? Why do I play mancala with the people, what is that supposed to represent? Why do grouping up merchants give me coins? Am I some sort of deity, and if so why do I need to summon Djinns? But it is a really fine line between being Abstract and theme-less so I don't know if this list makes much sense ^^
If you guys did have a drink or two at lunch, PLEASE do it every time. This topic is weird and unnecessary I believe, but your energy and banter about it was very entertaining. No joke, if yo loosened the pipes, DO IT AGAIN. Much love guys. So entertaining!
I'm pretty sure that Zee is the only one that drinks, which is why he made that comment in response to Zee. But agreed, I'm alright with Zee continuing the energetic banter.
I came across a comment on a previous Top 10 - I think it was the Top 10 influential games or something like that - and the viewer summed up these three reviewers sort of in this way: Tom wings it from his vast knowledge, Zee does historical research, and Sam misunderstands the assignment. Although that assessment can be applied to quite a few Top10s, none more than this one.
That was the list that brought me to dicetower. I was reserching board game history...Zee stuck me as very intelligent...I still largely believe that. I wont criticize anyone becuase I actually got it into my head that the sign out was, 'I'm Zeegar, see 'ya'.
By Sam's logic, blood rage is the most theme-less game. It could be any theme in which people are fighting. It could be a space them with ships, or futuristic theme with mechs or dinosaurs theme with dinosaurs, or political theme with countries fighting etc...
@@matejsebalj7469 We send our people down to planets to harvest resources. The size of the planets dictates how many troops (of all factions) can be on that planet at any one time. We can upgrade factions abilities, leaders, soldiers, and recruit aliens. Space ships can sit between 2 planets to provide attack support to both. In the center is the sun where these super technologically advanced civilizations can battle and harvest the sun's power. Blah blah blah sciencey sun thing destroys one of the planets each round. Valhalla quests could be described as scavenging resources from your dead troops. Bringing units back onto the field could be a cloning technology. Making it futuristic space theme is simple. The only thing that provides theme are the board, the art, the miniatures, and what things are named/called. So long as the game stays within the genre, a theme swap is easy. It's just dudes fighting for control of a map. There's nothing about the Blood Rage mechanisms that makes it unique to a viking theme.
@@matejsebalj7469 no. It only feels like that because that's how it was presented to you in the first place. If there would have made a game with the same mechanics but different theme, you would never think of Vikings.
Thanks for point this out. I used to like these 3-way top tens a lot more in the past, but this level of inconsistency is starting to make me fast forward through Sam's picks.
Sam here...you do realize that the list you're referring to is nearly 2 years old, right? Is it not okay to have a change of mind over the course of 2 years? Geez-louise, folks! I look at it differently than I did then...not really a big deal, imo. The base game is a framework upon which multiple themes can be hung, that's all I'm saying.
@@thedicetower OK, but please name a game in which you cannot change a theme. By your definition every game is theme-less. Descent? Changed into Star Wars. By your definition Descent is now theme-less. Chronicles of Crime? Same case as TIME Stories. Maybe Spartacus? Oh no, they came up with X-Men version so now Spartacus is theme-less. I'm just saying that you just stretched definition of "theme-less game" onto every board game that exists.
@@Baartoszz Totally agree with you. Changing a theme does not make a game theme-less. I challenge anyone to present a game that cannot be re-themed. Unless, ironically, it didn't have a theme in the first place.
So much better than your last top ten. You guys had me cracking up, especially Zee! And Sam seemed to be in a great mood, getting along with Zee for once ;) Great content, and congrats on the Kickstarter.
I think most ppl are focusing too much on the title. They say in the beginning that this is a redux of top 10 pasted on themes, so if a theme can be replaced without altering the gameplay, then it could qualify for this list. Maybe it's a misnomer, but the point is that these are good games with themes that don't really "matter".
To me "themeless" is very different than "something that could have been any other theme." I think a lot of the themes work for games like Came Up and Celestia. As we've seen, most games can be re-themed to farming, super heroes, or one race game to another, but sometimes the themes provide the atmosphere where the game mechanisms feel like they belong.
I agree - on the theme of Sam's list, I disagree with the camel up pick, but I stronlgy agree with Star realms. My personal criteria for a list like this (w/o true abstracts) would be a game where I forget what (thematically) I'm doing during gameplay - in SR I often just start thinking about numbers and combos, whitout even considering what those represent
Yeah agreed. Just because you can swap camel racing with car racing doesn't mean the game is themeless. It's still pretty much the same theme. If you can swap camel racing with city building then the game is probably themeless.
These aren't themeless games, they are theme-less games. As in less theme, or inconsequential/irrelevant theme (it's a play on words, and an update to their 'pasted on themes'). They basically said as much in the opening. If it were actually a "themeless" list, all of these would just be abstract games.
@@tomatodamashi Yeah but they have some really odd reasoning for why a game is "theme-less". Just because you can change a camel racing game to a car racing game doesn't make the game theme-less. If you can change the camel racing game to a city building game then yes, that's a pasted on theme. You can almost always change a theme even if the game is REALLY thematic. Blood Rage could easily be changed to a Greek setting. Sam's #1 theme-tastic game "Star Wars Rebellion" would work with a generic fantasy setting. The list goes on...
You really don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole because the more you do the more you realize MOST games are not as thematic as we tend to think.
Marc MacNair I don’t get what people mean by themeless. Like teotihuacan was number 9. The theme is obviously mesoamerica. Do people mean that the theme is poorly integrated into the mechanics?
Philip I agree. When Zee mentioned Biblios I’m like ok cool there’s a game where theme doesn’t matter as far as grabbing cards with high numbers . But Sam definitely went down a road where you can use his argument to deflate any game of its potential theme. Fun and great video as always tho. Thanx DT
This is a normal sam healey list, he puts time stories on games with a lot of theme, and then put it in games without theme list. Get usedto it, guys, that is normal for him
That's the way of the top ten. Tom comes up with rules in his head and gets annoyed when other people don't read his mind and follow them, Zee puts together a dependably solid list, and Sam puts in the minimum amount of effort required so that he has ten games which may or may not fit the topic
@@blarneystone38 I really don't think that's fair. Sam had clearly thought about his selection and put effort into making his case including answers to any objections. Of course I happen to think he was completely wrong but nevertheless it's not a case of minimising effort - quite the reverse.
Sam's #1 is pure insanity. heh Amusingly, that choice is #18 on BGG's Thematic list. By the way, my list would have games like Lost Cities, Battle Line, Onirim, Codenames, and Jaipur.
One of my favorite themeless themed games is Sea Change. It's supposedly about cleaning up the oceans to make them healthy for sea creatures. But it's exactly the same rules as another game with a completely different theme: Gorus Maximus is supposedly about training gladiators to chop each other into gory bits. But in reality both are the same trick-taking game that could easily be played with cards resembling ordinary playing cards with a few extra suits and marks.
Okay Sam, let me get this straight: You're for saying Time Stories isn't thematic because the core mechanics stay the same and make each module inserted feel thematic through the story telling, but the various themes themselves that have been provided to use those mechanics "invalidate" the games nature of being thematic? If that's the case, then you need to fall on the sword and say your precious Commands and Colors games by Richard Borg, are also non-thematic. I'm looking at your precious Memoir '44. That's the very same argument you just provided. Since there's been various themes utilized around the same C&C core mechanics with some various tweaks to help each setting, you're then saying Memoir '44 and any game that has used the C&C engine (which makes each time period of war feel thematic), are also non-thematic. *Drops mic*
I was hoping the list would be games that have no theme like "No Thanks", I wouldn't say many of these are themeless so much as weak or disconnected ones. The list definitely needed more deckbuilders - Marvel Legendary, DC Deckbuilder, Paperback... Spyfall was a good shout from Sam though as trying to link the theme and mechanics in that just doesn't work. Good game, nonsense theming
My understanding of Spyfall's theme is that everyone is on a radio conversation. The Spy card has the picture of the dude wearing headphones and has a satellite dish or something. I think it's an audio call about where to meet up for work, and they have to prevent the Spy from figuring out where to meet. I think?
I think they chose the camels because they have a shape that allows you to stack them one on top of the other. Plus you got a nice title (camel up written with bic C become camel cup)
By Sam's logic, The Twilight Zone, Quantum Leap, and Sliders are all themeless television shows. By my logic, also known as common sense, being an anthology series doesn't make it themeless. It means the theme changes from episode to episode.
In many ways they are themeless on the macro level while having an individual theme for the show. It's also pretty much the definition of a situational comedy. I loved Sliders but until they started adding more of a meta-story across episodes in later seasons, the entire theme of the show is just, people go to alternate worlds.
Just to make a correction from what Tom said near the end of the video, Toys 'R Us isn't completely out of business as they are no longer bankrupt and plan to open new stores sometime soon.
Hey gang, I feel like this one came apart at the seams. One thing that drives me nuts is when people have a dialog on a definition they haven’t agreed on, and that’s what happened here. It seems that for each game you picked, you described a different aspect of it being ‘themeless’ (no consistency). I distinctly remember you all reviewing and talking about T.I.M.E. Stories when it came out. And the pitch for the game (from everyone I listened to) was ‘it is dripping with theme’. If a game draws you in by its theme, regardless of the mechanics, it has a captivating/good theme. It is not theme-less. Another avenue to take on this subject, which I think all of you did some of the time, is whether the mechanics pulled you into the theme, which is completely different than a blasé game. Chris
For me the test goes like this, when teaching the game, can you relate each rule to the theme AND!!!!!! Does it help understand the rule or action when you do. Not all rules or actions have to follow this for a game to be thematic, but it is a way to put things on the spectrum.
That's seriously the best way I've ever heard of to determine if a game has a good theme, and one I've never thought of. When I teach a game, I just give what I think is necessary to play the game, so if I'm mentioning something about the theme, it must have great relevance, be tied to the mechanics, or is simply too good to not mention. Thanks for that insight!
I had an idea for Biblios (although I don't mind the theme). You all play bounty hunters (wild west) and the five categories are wanted outlaws with reward money on their heads (that changes depending on cards that depict further crime activity raising bounty or for some reason lowering it) I'll leave it there for now
Can you teach the premise of the game to someone by explaining the theme? That's what I would use for this. In Star Realms, Concordia, or Dominion (top picks for me) I couldn't explain the premise without going into what cards do or mechanics of the game. Those theme's pretty much just determine how they name cards to differentiate them. On the other hand, you can explain Battlestar Galactica, even to someone who hasn't seen the show, in such a way that you don't refer to any of the cards or dials or specific game mechanics and they should have a good idea of how the game plays out. It obviously works with different themes, but that game is very thematic because of what it does with the license, and you can explain each mechanism within it's unique take on the theme.
I think this list was a definite improvement over the last one, but it is still obvious that you guys have different defintions of the issue in question. I don´t know if this is necessarily a bad thing, but Sams logic in this list is just broken. Many would agree that Camel Up and Celestia have great themes, but if they are replacable are another matter entirely. Blood Rage could be in space or have a greek mythology theme, but the theme in Blood Rage is great. I personally like Castles of Burgundy a lot, but I think the theme is non-existent. Bora Bora and Lisboa ont he other hand in my mind are a bit more thematic.
I'm super surprised Sam didn't put Dice Masters on this list. I was really waiting for it, and especially thought it was coming at #1 when he gave the description.
The darksouls board game, tragedy looper, the resident evil board game, the firefly board game, splendor. I have more but I struggle to remember theme less games
Yep... i agree with you. 99% of games can have their theme replaced. Though it does not mean 99% of games are themeless. Sometimes their themes are well suited to the game even if it could be different. The only game i have ever seen/played where i would have a really hard time coming up with a different theme is Viral. It's a really weird game mechanically and it's theme fits those like a glove.
It's a question of how well the mechanisms match the simulated activity. Any game can have its aesthetic or art changed, but if doing so makes for a greater disconnect between the mechanisms and the corresponding action, it would be less thematic, meaning the original design had more theme.
So many of these games are have themes! Just to name a few: - Biblios: Gathering books for a library - Teotihuacan: Aztecs constructing a society and monuments - Barenpark: Creating a zoopark for a variety of bear types - Histrio: Putting on a theatrical show - Century Spice Road: Trading and buying spices - Carcassonne: Building territory and city - Space Base: Building colonies in space Those are all themes. Mechanisms not matching up perfectly harmoniously with a theme does not make a game themeless. Being able to switch out a theme with another game does not make a game themeless. Having a boring, dry, or "bad" theme does not make a game themeless. Having a theme that doesn't actually happen in the real world, does not make a game themeless. Just because the theme is not the main aspect of the game, does not make a game themeless. For next time, I really think you all need to revaluate your lists, or at least change the title of the list.
Bang the dice game could be retheemed in the Aliens universe (or something similar). The sheriff becomes the alien queen. Outlaws become soldiers trying to kill the queen. The renegades are mercenaries hoping to capture the queen to sell the highest bidder. Deputies are infected humans being controlled by the queen. It could also be themed as vampires & vampire hunters - or wherewolves ...
Spyfall definitely has theme, which I always use to teach the game. I don't know if it specifies in the rules, but I've always told people that everyone is in the role of a secret agent all at a location. However, a spy has wire-tapped the communication line that all the agents are using to communicate, so the object of the games is for the Agents to figure out who has wire-tapped and is pretending to be part of the Operation, and the Spy's objective is to try to blend in and figure out where the Operation is taking place. I can't think of any other theme that would fit on that game. Way more thematic than many many other games, Sam is definitely wrong putting it on this list!
I always thought Targi could be about targeting lasers as something, or maybe a cyberpunk hacking game where the outside of the board are network access points and the inside are servers. Either of those would make more sense, but a great game anyway.
Should have still been called pasted-on themes. I actually think a real theme-less list would be a very interesting list. As opposed to an Abstract list. Where games like Raptor are typically considered abstract games, they aren't really themeless. I'd love to see a top 10 of legit zero theme games.
Targi is one of my favorite all time games, but I disagree that it is themeless. It's about competition among the Tuareg trade routes and feels like the most thematic game I have that has euro elements. The victory points are Tuareg crosses - of value to them spiritually and economically. The supplies are some of their key staples for trading - salt, dates, pepper. The thief makes sense thematically as well with respect to trade routes and areas being blocked. The locations you build into your tableau are relative to their local and realistic places therein, and the value of water being added by the Targia in the expansion just adds another layer. I've blinged out my version accordingly for the theme and had to comment accordingly regarding the theme on this one. Wicked awesome game!
Betrayal at the House on the Hill. You're literally wandering around a house that you haven't discovered yet, waiting for a traitor to appear, and that traitor doesn't even know he's a traitor until the reveal. Then, the theme is selected at random, and it doesn't tie into the events that happened before the reveal. For example, the traitor might be a vampire, but until that reveal, there was no vampiric/gothic theming.
If I heard correctly before Sam introduced his number 2, my 12 year old self would think that was one of the most hilarious moments in Dice Tower history.
Given their definition of themeless, I would definitely have to say Shadows over Camelot. Poker hands to beat dragons, the Black Knight, and discarding cards to get the Holy Grail is a complete disconnect for me. But I don't really like the game either, LOL.
Ok this list is a little all over the place :D. ‘Themeless’ means without any theme, I.e. abstract. What I think they meant is ‘unthematic’ meaning the mechanics don’t support the theme, but what they’ve mostly done is list a bunch of thematic games where the theme could be swapped out for a different theme. This doesn’t make games ‘themeless’ or ‘unthematic’, it means the mechanics make thematic sense AND can be transferred to another theme. Dunno what’s going on here at all :s
By their very nature games are abstractions of something - otherwise they would be that activity and not a game about that activity. But for me, it's much more of a spectrum than clear categories: On the one end, you have games that have no theme (not even pretend to have one) which are 100 % abstract (like Go or the Gipfs series of games) and then you slowly work towards the other end, first passing games that have a theme but no mechanical tie-in to that theme (e.g. Onitama, Azul) and so on and so on. The other end of that spectrum is games where the mechanisms of the game tie in the best to the theme compared to other games - but even those are very much abstractions. A lot of story driven games feel very thematic to me (7th Continent, This War of Mine etc.) but they are still very abstract. How well mechanics tie in to a theme is also highly subjective - especially with made-up themes (fantasy, sci-fi) and stereotype genres (e.g. western, mafia) - because different people read different things into or focus on different things within a particular theme: To me the "thematic" part of a western game might the rapid civilization of the great American planes and to you it might be poker hand and shoot out at the O.K. Coral. Which game is more thematic: Great Western Trail or Dice Town? The answer probably depends on 1. what you think the theme of those games are and 2. what you understand with that theme.
To the Dice Tower: Have you ever done a top 10 of MOST themed games? It seems to me by the way you guys define this, you can abstract games out to the point that they are ALL theme-less! If I am wrong, PROVE IT! Show us a top 10 list of games that are made such that there could be NO OTHER theme than the one that they published with. I would ask that you keep in mind the same standards that you used for this list (I am looking at you Sam) The gauntlet is thrown, it is up to you to decide to pick it up and show me the error of this statement! (plus, I think it would be a great list)
I am just curious what games have the most tied in themes. Theme is weird to me. I mean most dungeon crawlers can be any theme. Most ameritrash can be any theme. i am so confused.
I found a video of someone who does a good job providing a counterpoint to Sam's number 1 ruclips.net/video/ycfbro__KUg/видео.html. His name is Sam Heely and he considers Time Stories to be the 4th most Theme-tastic game.
Once again Sam fails to make a decent argument on his picks. The theme in Camel Up is silly and out there, but it's not themeless. plus just cause a game has been rethemed, doesn't meanit has none either, unless it did not have one to begin with. Also in T.I.M.E Stories(never played so take what i say with a grain of salt) isn't the crux of the theme, you traveling through different periods of time meaning the setting, and theme be different? The game's main narrative is still in play, a time traveler sent to a certain period to do God knows what. So if anything I would say the theme is pretty consistent.Like I said never played, but this is what I theorize. At the end of the day, game's are mechanisms and whether those mechanisms play a part in the theme is really up to the designer. I mean a lot of people feel the Arkham/Eldritch games are super thematic, but I don't see mindless dice rolling and flavor text reading to be all that thematic, but to each their own. Plus How is Revolution on this list as a "top 10" when it made his Turkeys list last year.
I actually dont think Pandemic is thematic. I mean its a game about moving pawns to remove cubes... the fact that they made one about clearing cultists, water levels, communists just brings this to light. I do still love it to bits
Artwork helps to represent the theme, and so does lore (like the stories in rule books). When you guys say, "theme", do you just mean mechanics that represent the theme? I'm a little lost, but I LOVE seeing you guys talk about games you like, so who cares what the topic is. :)
Theme is how well the mechanisms replicate the actions or events they're meant to simulate. Artwork helps make the connection, but doesn't constitute theme on its own.
Pasted on themes people. IMO Time Stories fits incredibly well with this list. I don’t feel like I’m time traveling when I play that game. I just feel like I’m moving pieces and solving puzzles in the shortest amount of time possible. The theme is completely pasted on.
Sorry Sam, I feel like you're so far away from how this top 10 was meant. Almost every theme is interchangeable. That's the argument for the majority of your picks. The number 1 is just a proof of that. Do you understand the concept of time stories?
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
"Don't quote me on anything."
-Zee
Put that on a t-shirt for dicetower con or the kickstarter
Anduril Wildfire I’m gonna start using this quote like everybody else uses famous quotes cause they have nothing to say. This is like the killer of quotes.
You’ll be seeing Zee’s quote on all documentaries now............”Don’t quote me on anything!” -Zee Garcia
"It could be any theme here" is not a good definition for this list... Being able to replace a theme does not make a game themeless... Being themeless is about you not being able to relate the thematic elements to the mechanisms and/or elements of the game...
I completely agree with you. I was just thinking about that during the video. Sam focused almost always on that unfortunately.
Agree. Thought it would be abstracts mostly.
In fact by that definition most if not all games are themeless.
Camel Up is a good example. It could be anything, of course, it could be elephants or people, but they are camels. The illustration and the components are well represented (just like in Jamaica). In that case Downforce could be anything and most of any other racing game.
I agree.. A themeless game to me is one where the mechanisms cannot be explained by the theme or where I do not know what I represent in the game. Five Tribes is a great example, who am I to decide what group of people needs to move, and where they need to move to? Why do I play mancala with the people, what is that supposed to represent? Why do grouping up merchants give me coins? Am I some sort of deity, and if so why do I need to summon Djinns? But it is a really fine line between being Abstract and theme-less so I don't know if this list makes much sense ^^
If you guys did have a drink or two at lunch, PLEASE do it every time. This topic is weird and unnecessary I believe, but your energy and banter about it was very entertaining. No joke, if yo loosened the pipes, DO IT AGAIN. Much love guys. So entertaining!
I'm pretty sure that Zee is the only one that drinks, which is why he made that comment in response to Zee. But agreed, I'm alright with Zee continuing the energetic banter.
I agree. The topic of the list didn't interest me very much, but the banter and silliness made it a great entertaining video.
I came across a comment on a previous Top 10 - I think it was the Top 10 influential games or something like that - and the viewer summed up these three reviewers sort of in this way: Tom wings it from his vast knowledge, Zee does historical research, and Sam misunderstands the assignment. Although that assessment can be applied to quite a few Top10s, none more than this one.
That was the list that brought me to dicetower. I was reserching board game history...Zee stuck me as very intelligent...I still largely believe that. I wont criticize anyone becuase I actually got it into my head that the sign out was, 'I'm Zeegar, see 'ya'.
I've always said this: Tom is why Dice Tower exists. Zee is why it's popular.
Zee had a chance to say "In Space Base no one can hear your theme" and missed it! :(
By Sam's logic, blood rage is the most theme-less game. It could be any theme in which people are fighting. It could be a space them with ships, or futuristic theme with mechs or dinosaurs theme with dinosaurs, or political theme with countries fighting etc...
It could have a different theme but it wouldnt fit the game mechanics that much.
Blood Rage really feels like it was designed as a viking game.
@@matejsebalj7469 We send our people down to planets to harvest resources. The size of the planets dictates how many troops (of all factions) can be on that planet at any one time. We can upgrade factions abilities, leaders, soldiers, and recruit aliens. Space ships can sit between 2 planets to provide attack support to both. In the center is the sun where these super technologically advanced civilizations can battle and harvest the sun's power. Blah blah blah sciencey sun thing destroys one of the planets each round. Valhalla quests could be described as scavenging resources from your dead troops. Bringing units back onto the field could be a cloning technology. Making it futuristic space theme is simple.
The only thing that provides theme are the board, the art, the miniatures, and what things are named/called. So long as the game stays within the genre, a theme swap is easy. It's just dudes fighting for control of a map. There's nothing about the Blood Rage mechanisms that makes it unique to a viking theme.
Sam shoehorns the same 10-20 games into every list.
@@matejsebalj7469 no. It only feels like that because that's how it was presented to you in the first place. If there would have made a game with the same mechanics but different theme, you would never think of Vikings.
@@matejsebalj7469 I actually wanted to write the same comment :)
I do think "Pasted on themes" is a better descriptor for this list than "themeless"
Sam literally put T.I.M.E. Stories as his #4 "Theme-tastic" game in a prior video published on August 17th, 2017.
Yeeeeeeeeeahhhhh not surprised on that one
Thanks for point this out. I used to like these 3-way top tens a lot more in the past, but this level of inconsistency is starting to make me fast forward through Sam's picks.
Sam here...you do realize that the list you're referring to is nearly 2 years old, right? Is it not okay to have a change of mind over the course of 2 years? Geez-louise, folks! I look at it differently than I did then...not really a big deal, imo. The base game is a framework upon which multiple themes can be hung, that's all I'm saying.
@@thedicetower OK, but please name a game in which you cannot change a theme. By your definition every game is theme-less. Descent? Changed into Star Wars. By your definition Descent is now theme-less. Chronicles of Crime? Same case as TIME Stories. Maybe Spartacus? Oh no, they came up with X-Men version so now Spartacus is theme-less. I'm just saying that you just stretched definition of "theme-less game" onto every board game that exists.
@@Baartoszz Totally agree with you. Changing a theme does not make a game theme-less. I challenge anyone to present a game that cannot be re-themed. Unless, ironically, it didn't have a theme in the first place.
Time Stories by itself is just a set of mechanisms. Each module takes those mechanisms and adapts them to a theme.
Sam definitely had the most controversial list as most of his picks were actually quite thematic. Maybe if they added more Vikings...
Sam's lists are always controversial. He always applyes everything backwards.
Ac vallahala is here
Sam doesn't have a clue about anything.
Hats off to Zee for dressing completely themelessly today. He's giving Tom a run for his money with these costumes.
So much better than your last top ten. You guys had me cracking up, especially Zee! And Sam seemed to be in a great mood, getting along with Zee for once ;) Great content, and congrats on the Kickstarter.
How ethnos was not picked?
“Don’t quote me on anything.”
- Zee Garcia
I think most ppl are focusing too much on the title. They say in the beginning that this is a redux of top 10 pasted on themes, so if a theme can be replaced without altering the gameplay, then it could qualify for this list. Maybe it's a misnomer, but the point is that these are good games with themes that don't really "matter".
That and perhaps people are forgetting this is a top 10 list of their favorite games they consider theme-less, not the 10 most themeless games.
"This shot to the top of the list because it literally has multiple themes"
- Sam "Top 10 Theme-less Games"
Zee's pronunciation of his number 9 brought out the twelve year old in me.
Same, as soon as he said his #9, I instantly checked the comments just to see if anybody had the same reaction 😂
Glad I wasn't the only one.
That was pretty epic, and he said it with a completely straight face.
Same lol
This is a funny list, I love Tom's reaction to Sam's number 1.
Best "Top 10",in recent time. Your guys are great. Keep it up
To me "themeless" is very different than "something that could have been any other theme." I think a lot of the themes work for games like Came Up and Celestia. As we've seen, most games can be re-themed to farming, super heroes, or one race game to another, but sometimes the themes provide the atmosphere where the game mechanisms feel like they belong.
I agree - on the theme of Sam's list, I disagree with the camel up pick, but I stronlgy agree with Star realms.
My personal criteria for a list like this (w/o true abstracts) would be a game where I forget what (thematically) I'm doing during gameplay - in SR I often just start thinking about numbers and combos, whitout even considering what those represent
Yeah agreed. Just because you can swap camel racing with car racing doesn't mean the game is themeless. It's still pretty much the same theme. If you can swap camel racing with city building then the game is probably themeless.
That's a weird list. A good chunk of these I wouldn't consider "theme-less".
Agreed. Some really odd arguments there.
These aren't themeless games, they are theme-less games. As in less theme, or inconsequential/irrelevant theme (it's a play on words, and an update to their 'pasted on themes'). They basically said as much in the opening. If it were actually a "themeless" list, all of these would just be abstract games.
@@tomatodamashi Yeah but they have some really odd reasoning for why a game is "theme-less". Just because you can change a camel racing game to a car racing game doesn't make the game theme-less. If you can change the camel racing game to a city building game then yes, that's a pasted on theme. You can almost always change a theme even if the game is REALLY thematic. Blood Rage could easily be changed to a Greek setting. Sam's #1 theme-tastic game "Star Wars Rebellion" would work with a generic fantasy setting. The list goes on...
Drink every time someone says "It could be anything!"
I’m not sure Sam understands this list 😄. Completely different stories and thematic feelings.
Best Top 10 in awhile. When the three of you are clicking, it's gold.
I had to rewind and watch 12:20 - 12:32 several times because of how hilarious it was to watch Sam hide his reaction to that joke.
Loved it when number eight started with Zee's gentle giggling at 16:35
Also, by the way, Sam, TIME Stories was your Top 4 Thematic game in Dice Tower list a year ago.
Shogun was on his list as well and that is literally a re-skin of Wallenstein. By his own criteria, that means it isn't thematic.
Love the energy and chemistry of these shows, keep it up!
You really don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole because the more you do the more you realize MOST games are not as thematic as we tend to think.
Marc MacNair I don’t get what people mean by themeless. Like teotihuacan was number 9. The theme is obviously mesoamerica. Do people mean that the theme is poorly integrated into the mechanics?
@@shanerion Yes that's what they mean
shanerion usually yes, but the dice tower guys have weird and different ideas on what constitutes theme.
Exactly. Sam went so far down that rabbit hole that he came out the other side with his #1 pick. Idonteven.
Philip I agree. When Zee mentioned Biblios I’m like ok cool there’s a game where theme doesn’t matter as far as grabbing cards with high numbers . But Sam definitely went down a road where you can use his argument to deflate any game of its potential theme. Fun and great video as always tho. Thanx DT
This is a normal sam healey list, he puts time stories on games with a lot of theme, and then put it in games without theme list. Get usedto it, guys, that is normal for him
That's the way of the top ten. Tom comes up with rules in his head and gets annoyed when other people don't read his mind and follow them, Zee puts together a dependably solid list, and Sam puts in the minimum amount of effort required so that he has ten games which may or may not fit the topic
@@blarneystone38 Perfect summary
We need a top ten list of top ten lists which Sam messed up
@@blarneystone38 I really don't think that's fair. Sam had clearly thought about his selection and put effort into making his case including answers to any objections. Of course I happen to think he was completely wrong but nevertheless it's not a case of minimising effort - quite the reverse.
RadeTcg that would cover 80% of the lists made.
Sam's #1 is pure insanity. heh Amusingly, that choice is #18 on BGG's Thematic list.
By the way, my list would have games like Lost Cities, Battle Line, Onirim, Codenames, and Jaipur.
He chose it as his number 4 in the top 10 Theme-tastic games... ruclips.net/video/ycfbro__KUg/видео.html
KabukiKid Onirim is a great pick
What about Leaving Earth? 😜
LMAO! @Zaki :-) (Nobody else here is going to get the joke.)
pompous and pretentious
One of my favorite themeless themed games is Sea Change. It's supposedly about cleaning up the oceans to make them healthy for sea creatures. But it's exactly the same rules as another game with a completely different theme: Gorus Maximus is supposedly about training gladiators to chop each other into gory bits. But in reality both are the same trick-taking game that could easily be played with cards resembling ordinary playing cards with a few extra suits and marks.
Okay Sam, let me get this straight:
You're for saying Time Stories isn't thematic because the core mechanics stay the same and make each module inserted feel thematic through the story telling, but the various themes themselves that have been provided to use those mechanics "invalidate" the games nature of being thematic?
If that's the case, then you need to fall on the sword and say your precious Commands and Colors games by Richard Borg, are also non-thematic. I'm looking at your precious Memoir '44. That's the very same argument you just provided. Since there's been various themes utilized around the same C&C core mechanics with some various tweaks to help each setting, you're then saying Memoir '44 and any game that has used the C&C engine (which makes each time period of war feel thematic), are also non-thematic.
*Drops mic*
By Sam's logic Battlestar Galactica would be themeless. Could be replaced with King Arthur, Zombies, Jesus, Brutus. Any betrayer storyline.
That has to be one of the loosest top ten list these guys have done, so many jokes that skirted vulgarity by a hairs breath, I love it!!
Sam has officially jumped the shark.
I think you meant dice tower top 10s....sad really.
He did it 5 years ago.
Sam is completely indefensible with his ludicrous pick for number 1, with multiple glaring contradictions out of his own mouth.
I was hoping the list would be games that have no theme like "No Thanks", I wouldn't say many of these are themeless so much as weak or disconnected ones. The list definitely needed more deckbuilders - Marvel Legendary, DC Deckbuilder, Paperback... Spyfall was a good shout from Sam though as trying to link the theme and mechanics in that just doesn't work. Good game, nonsense theming
My understanding of Spyfall's theme is that everyone is on a radio conversation. The Spy card has the picture of the dude wearing headphones and has a satellite dish or something. I think it's an audio call about where to meet up for work, and they have to prevent the Spy from figuring out where to meet. I think?
I think they chose the camels because they have a shape that allows you to stack them one on top of the other. Plus you got a nice title (camel up written with bic C become camel cup)
That and camels are silly, which helps emphasize the ridiculous nature of the game.
By Sam's logic, The Twilight Zone, Quantum Leap, and Sliders are all themeless television shows. By my logic, also known as common sense, being an anthology series doesn't make it themeless. It means the theme changes from episode to episode.
In many ways they are themeless on the macro level while having an individual theme for the show. It's also pretty much the definition of a situational comedy. I loved Sliders but until they started adding more of a meta-story across episodes in later seasons, the entire theme of the show is just, people go to alternate worlds.
Just to make a correction from what Tom said near the end of the video, Toys 'R Us isn't completely out of business as they are no longer bankrupt and plan to open new stores sometime soon.
Hey gang,
I feel like this one came apart at the seams. One thing that drives me nuts is when people have a dialog on a definition they haven’t agreed on, and that’s what happened here.
It seems that for each game you picked, you described a different aspect of it being ‘themeless’ (no consistency).
I distinctly remember you all reviewing and talking about T.I.M.E. Stories when it came out. And the pitch for the game (from everyone I listened to) was ‘it is dripping with theme’.
If a game draws you in by its theme, regardless of the mechanics, it has a captivating/good theme. It is not theme-less.
Another avenue to take on this subject, which I think all of you did some of the time, is whether the mechanics pulled you into the theme, which is completely different than a blasé game.
Chris
This list wasn't made to cater to your personal tastes. Life is like that often.
Tom your Time stories reaction was priceless.
ah, it had been a while since the last Sam-WTF-Are-You-Doing day
that Zee face during Camel Up just cracked me up :D
For me the test goes like this, when teaching the game, can you relate each rule to the theme AND!!!!!! Does it help understand the rule or action when you do.
Not all rules or actions have to follow this for a game to be thematic, but it is a way to put things on the spectrum.
That's seriously the best way I've ever heard of to determine if a game has a good theme, and one I've never thought of. When I teach a game, I just give what I think is necessary to play the game, so if I'm mentioning something about the theme, it must have great relevance, be tied to the mechanics, or is simply too good to not mention. Thanks for that insight!
Far away from the TIME stories controversy here...
I just wanna know, what does Tom said at 28:19 ? Before "... I don't like monkeys" 😅
I had an idea for Biblios (although I don't mind the theme). You all play bounty hunters (wild west) and the five categories are wanted outlaws with reward money on their heads (that changes depending on cards that depict further crime activity raising bounty or for some reason lowering it) I'll leave it there for now
Can you teach the premise of the game to someone by explaining the theme? That's what I would use for this. In Star Realms, Concordia, or Dominion (top picks for me) I couldn't explain the premise without going into what cards do or mechanics of the game. Those theme's pretty much just determine how they name cards to differentiate them. On the other hand, you can explain Battlestar Galactica, even to someone who hasn't seen the show, in such a way that you don't refer to any of the cards or dials or specific game mechanics and they should have a good idea of how the game plays out. It obviously works with different themes, but that game is very thematic because of what it does with the license, and you can explain each mechanism within it's unique take on the theme.
I think Star Realms is a very thematic game because almost every game mechanic has a thematic explanation.
Which Time Stories module had Marilyn Manson?
The Madman! Putting the same game on both the Theme-tastic and the Theme-less lists!
“Aqua-kaka” and then Tom immediately says “my number 2” .... also- Sam pointing out “Carp Day”! So good!
Given Sam's main criteria, I'm surprised, he did not mention Descent/IA on this list.
I'd totally be down for a Bushido Realms. Hero Realms with Samurai, Ninja, Yokai, etc.
I think this list was a definite improvement over the last one, but it is still obvious that you guys have different defintions of the issue in question. I don´t know if this is necessarily a bad thing, but Sams logic in this list is just broken. Many would agree that Camel Up and Celestia have great themes, but if they are replacable are another matter entirely. Blood Rage could be in space or have a greek mythology theme, but the theme in Blood Rage is great. I personally like Castles of Burgundy a lot, but I think the theme is non-existent. Bora Bora and Lisboa ont he other hand in my mind are a bit more thematic.
I'm super surprised Sam didn't put Dice Masters on this list. I was really waiting for it, and especially thought it was coming at #1 when he gave the description.
The darksouls board game, tragedy looper, the resident evil board game, the firefly board game, splendor.
I have more but I struggle to remember theme less games
Almost every game's theme can be replaced by something else.
Yep... i agree with you. 99% of games can have their theme replaced.
Though it does not mean 99% of games are themeless. Sometimes their themes are well suited to the game even if it could be different.
The only game i have ever seen/played where i would have a really hard time coming up with a different theme is Viral. It's a really weird game mechanically and it's theme fits those like a glove.
It's a question of how well the mechanisms match the simulated activity. Any game can have its aesthetic or art changed, but if doing so makes for a greater disconnect between the mechanisms and the corresponding action, it would be less thematic, meaning the original design had more theme.
Haha, I usually don't give a damn about theme nor feel it, games are about mechanics for me so all g
Did someone just fart at 58:26? LOL!
Yes :)
Looks like Sam made that noise...
So many of these games are have themes! Just to name a few:
- Biblios: Gathering books for a library
- Teotihuacan: Aztecs constructing a society and monuments
- Barenpark: Creating a zoopark for a variety of bear types
- Histrio: Putting on a theatrical show
- Century Spice Road: Trading and buying spices
- Carcassonne: Building territory and city
- Space Base: Building colonies in space
Those are all themes. Mechanisms not matching up perfectly harmoniously with a theme does not make a game themeless. Being able to switch out a theme with another game does not make a game themeless. Having a boring, dry, or "bad" theme does not make a game themeless. Having a theme that doesn't actually happen in the real world, does not make a game themeless. Just because the theme is not the main aspect of the game, does not make a game themeless. For next time, I really think you all need to revaluate your lists, or at least change the title of the list.
Bang the dice game could be retheemed in the Aliens universe (or something similar). The sheriff becomes the alien queen. Outlaws become soldiers trying to kill the queen. The renegades are mercenaries hoping to capture the queen to sell the highest bidder. Deputies are infected humans being controlled by the queen. It could also be themed as vampires & vampire hunters - or wherewolves ...
Sam including Camel Up on a themeless games list is maybe the most unhinged take i've ever seen on this channel.
Spyfall definitely has theme, which I always use to teach the game. I don't know if it specifies in the rules, but I've always told people that everyone is in the role of a secret agent all at a location. However, a spy has wire-tapped the communication line that all the agents are using to communicate, so the object of the games is for the Agents to figure out who has wire-tapped and is pretending to be part of the Operation, and the Spy's objective is to try to blend in and figure out where the Operation is taking place.
I can't think of any other theme that would fit on that game. Way more thematic than many many other games, Sam is definitely wrong putting it on this list!
I always thought Targi could be about targeting lasers as something, or maybe a cyberpunk hacking game where the outside of the board are network access points and the inside are servers. Either of those would make more sense, but a great game anyway.
Where was Ethnos?
Should have still been called pasted-on themes. I actually think a real theme-less list would be a very interesting list. As opposed to an Abstract list. Where games like Raptor are typically considered abstract games, they aren't really themeless. I'd love to see a top 10 of legit zero theme games.
Tom... "If anyone puts Time Stories on this list....I'll eat my hat!"
Sam...."My number 1...Time Stories..."
Tom... 1:04:49
Tom, how is your #1 NOT Cosmic Encounter. They did re-theme it as Game of Thrones?
If this is the pasted in theme list when why isn’t it just 1/2 the Euros in existence?
Zee has never played rooooooyallls. 🎼
Targi is one of my favorite all time games, but I disagree that it is themeless. It's about competition among the Tuareg trade routes and feels like the most thematic game I have that has euro elements. The victory points are Tuareg crosses - of value to them spiritually and economically. The supplies are some of their key staples for trading - salt, dates, pepper. The thief makes sense thematically as well with respect to trade routes and areas being blocked. The locations you build into your tableau are relative to their local and realistic places therein, and the value of water being added by the Targia in the expansion just adds another layer. I've blinged out my version accordingly for the theme and had to comment accordingly regarding the theme on this one. Wicked awesome game!
Nice list. Really interesting to watch.
Theme is such a subjective experience. All themes are pasted on and you can come up with an alternative theme on them if you think hard enough.
I question whether some even really know what theme is. Not naming any names here.
Betrayal at the House on the Hill.
You're literally wandering around a house that you haven't discovered yet, waiting for a traitor to appear, and that traitor doesn't even know he's a traitor until the reveal. Then, the theme is selected at random, and it doesn't tie into the events that happened before the reveal. For example, the traitor might be a vampire, but until that reveal, there was no vampiric/gothic theming.
The wallpaper people in the beginning is pretty funny.
We have tons of Toys 'R' US in Canada
If I heard correctly before Sam introduced his number 2, my 12 year old self would think that was one of the most hilarious moments in Dice Tower history.
You can swap themes fairly easily on most games, that doesn’t make it theme-less.
I think Sam is right about time stories. To further go with his point, I'd say the game is theme-less but a framework to place themes on.
It would be if Sam hadn’t put Time Stories on his themetastic list
Sam here...am I not allowed to have a change of mind over a couple years?
Given their definition of themeless, I would definitely have to say Shadows over Camelot. Poker hands to beat dragons, the Black Knight, and discarding cards to get the Holy Grail is a complete disconnect for me. But I don't really like the game either, LOL.
I agree, that should have made the list, 100%.
Ok this list is a little all over the place :D. ‘Themeless’ means without any theme, I.e. abstract. What I think they meant is ‘unthematic’ meaning the mechanics don’t support the theme, but what they’ve mostly done is list a bunch of thematic games where the theme could be swapped out for a different theme. This doesn’t make games ‘themeless’ or ‘unthematic’, it means the mechanics make thematic sense AND can be transferred to another theme. Dunno what’s going on here at all :s
I think they defined their intentions at the start of the video, so arguing over it is pointless.
If you squint reeeeally hard, it kinda of looks like Sam has a massive afro.
By their very nature games are abstractions of something - otherwise they would be that activity and not a game about that activity. But for me, it's much more of a spectrum than clear categories: On the one end, you have games that have no theme (not even pretend to have one) which are 100 % abstract (like Go or the Gipfs series of games) and then you slowly work towards the other end, first passing games that have a theme but no mechanical tie-in to that theme (e.g. Onitama, Azul) and so on and so on.
The other end of that spectrum is games where the mechanisms of the game tie in the best to the theme compared to other games - but even those are very much abstractions. A lot of story driven games feel very thematic to me (7th Continent, This War of Mine etc.) but they are still very abstract.
How well mechanics tie in to a theme is also highly subjective - especially with made-up themes (fantasy, sci-fi) and stereotype genres (e.g. western, mafia) - because different people read different things into or focus on different things within a particular theme: To me the "thematic" part of a western game might the rapid civilization of the great American planes and to you it might be poker hand and shoot out at the O.K. Coral. Which game is more thematic: Great Western Trail or Dice Town? The answer probably depends on 1. what you think the theme of those games are and 2. what you understand with that theme.
To the Dice Tower: Have you ever done a top 10 of MOST themed games? It seems to me by the way you guys define this, you can abstract games out to the point that they are ALL theme-less! If I am wrong, PROVE IT! Show us a top 10 list of games that are made such that there could be NO OTHER theme than the one that they published with. I would ask that you keep in mind the same standards that you used for this list (I am looking at you Sam) The gauntlet is thrown, it is up to you to decide to pick it up and show me the error of this statement! (plus, I think it would be a great list)
What did you think of Spectaculum?
Was really expecting Rising 5 to be on Sam's list and Abyss on Zee's list
I am just curious what games have the most tied in themes. Theme is weird to me. I mean most dungeon crawlers can be any theme. Most ameritrash can be any theme. i am so confused.
I found a video of someone who does a good job providing a counterpoint to Sam's number 1 ruclips.net/video/ycfbro__KUg/видео.html. His name is Sam Heely and he considers Time Stories to be the 4th most Theme-tastic game.
Once again Sam fails to make a decent argument on his picks. The theme in Camel Up is silly and out there, but it's not themeless. plus just cause a game has been rethemed, doesn't meanit has none either, unless it did not have one to begin with. Also in T.I.M.E Stories(never played so take what i say with a grain of salt) isn't the crux of the theme, you traveling through different periods of time meaning the setting, and theme be different? The game's main narrative is still in play, a time traveler sent to a certain period to do God knows what. So if anything I would say the theme is pretty consistent.Like I said never played, but this is what I theorize.
At the end of the day, game's are mechanisms and whether those mechanisms play a part in the theme is really up to the designer. I mean a lot of people feel the Arkham/Eldritch games are super thematic, but I don't see mindless dice rolling and flavor text reading to be all that thematic, but to each their own. Plus How is Revolution on this list as a "top 10" when it made his Turkeys list last year.
I actually dont think Pandemic is thematic. I mean its a game about moving pawns to remove cubes... the fact that they made one about clearing cultists, water levels, communists just brings this to light. I do still love it to bits
1. Castles of Burgundy
2. Any othe Feld game
3. Azul
TIME Stories is all theme. There are no mechanics. If it weren't thematic, there would be nothing there.
Parade. Great filler game, but the theme is 100% pasted on.
Gizmos, Alicematik Heroes, Dice forge... there are hundreds of themeless games out there.
Artwork helps to represent the theme, and so does lore (like the stories in rule books). When you guys say, "theme", do you just mean mechanics that represent the theme? I'm a little lost, but I LOVE seeing you guys talk about games you like, so who cares what the topic is. :)
Theme is how well the mechanisms replicate the actions or events they're meant to simulate. Artwork helps make the connection, but doesn't constitute theme on its own.
Pasted on themes people. IMO Time Stories fits incredibly well with this list. I don’t feel like I’m time traveling when I play that game. I just feel like I’m moving pieces and solving puzzles in the shortest amount of time possible. The theme is completely pasted on.
If they did a hero realms with a h.p lovecraft horror theme I'd buy it in a heart beat!
Sorry Sam, I feel like you're so far away from how this top 10 was meant. Almost every theme is interchangeable. That's the argument for the majority of your picks. The number 1 is just a proof of that. Do you understand the concept of time stories?
Lost Cities?