How many Kazuya players have made it to finals in major Tekken tournaments? You think wavuing is easy with a cd mixup? Why is Kazuya the bottom when its win rate percentages? Keisuke is an amazing player. You complaining about Kazuya players doing mixups that, if blocked or ducked properly, are launch punishable. You kind of take away from Keisukes actual skill. Idk man. You do you.
@@vexyboi267 How else can I respond? I made a 30 min video explaining my position (complete with timestamps) And I'm being challenged on things I never said 🤣 Did I say Kazuya was top tier? Did I say Kazuya was easy to win with? Did I say Kazuya players had no skill? Did I say Kaisuke or Kazuya players in general were carried? Did I say heavy mix-ups should be removed from the game? How many Kuma players have made it to major finals? Does this mean Kuma is an honest character? And even if we say Kuma is a dishonest character, does this mean Rangchu is a scrub? Or not deserving of recognition as one of the best players on the planet? If so, please show me where I said or even implied that. Conversely, how many Leo's or Asuka's have we seen in the finals of majors? Does this mean THEY are honest characters? Why are we even discussing finals results!? What does this have to do with anything!? In fact, why am I even typing this. Let me just pin your comment and be done with it.
@ChadTheThirdUK there's no point debating with these kinds of people. You extended your hand, but they only heard you attacking them (and even then its in a PLAYFUL manner). They don't understand words (like honest) can mean different things to different people. People have varying reaction speed, knowledge, and strategy. So of course some view mix ups as harder to deal with and others may view knowledge checks as harder, etc. It's hard for them to think 'oh I can see why some people think that'. They think in absolutes and 'wrong' opinions may be an attack to them and their ideologies. Similar to what you said at the end of the video, this is beyond Tekken.
As a Kazuya main I have disown some of the other Kazuya mains because not for one second have I ever thought the vortex was a fake mixup, nor had deluded myself into thinking it wasn't frustrating to deal with. His mixups are indeed frustrating, and if the Kaz is good, hard to deal with.
Real talk I genuinely think there are like two kinds of Kazuya players. The ones who are actually super chill, point out obvious flaws in your gameplan and are genuinely good at the game, and then there are the people who just take stuff super personal and act like they’re hot stuff because of the original reputation the community has.
I am so late but I actually want to know. What is a real mixup in Tekken 8. All characters who have the nastiest stance mixups or grab mixups are often (While the rest do not have any in general) are called fake mixups. Then what is a real mixup? I only ever heard Phi call a certain character's mixups fake but never heard anyone mention certain characters having true mixups? Is it a mixup with equal/tight frames, mixups on + frames, or is it mixups that are unseeable? I do not get it.
@@Perry_Talion Basically a fake mixup is something that can be dealt with on reaction or fuzzy block and does not require a hard read. (in general, because Jin's 1,2,3/4 mixup is reactable if you have very, very fast reflexes). Whereas a true mixup, like the Mishi 50/50, you cannot react to nor fuzzy block and thus requires a hard read.
@@Perry_Talion You will hear fake mixups, fake pressure etc, and just to add to the first response, all it means is that it appears to be real pressure/real mix but it’s really only as real if you believe it’s real. As soon as you learn the technique or secret to beating it, it becomes fake because the frame data doesn’t actually back it up as the threat it appears to be. For example Nina pressuring with repeated ss1 cancels appears to be real because on paper if you cancel ss1 into backsway then cancel out of backsway you’re +10 on block but it’s not real because if your opponent blocks they can just jab you out of the sidestep animation. Fake mix is the same - you might think you’re forced to block mid/low but if one of the options isn’t actually the threat it seems to be, or if there’s an easy timing to fuzzy guard* then it’s fake. *if you don’t know what that means basically let’s say the mid follow-up comes out in 15 frames then the low follow-up comes out in 20. That means if you get the timing down you can always block standing for 15-19 frames then go to block low which will result in both options getting blocked without you having to choose. However let’s say it’s out of a crouch dash meaning the timing can be varied, then the mix becomes a real 50/50 because you no longer have a consistent timing for fuzzy guarding. Hopefully that makes sense
it’s just for meme purposes it’s like a ptsd coping mechanism for fighting game vets even though we all are in the trenches. The only dishonest thing to me is blatant cheating.
If you say your main is honest, it’s because you feel like you’re entitled to wins so when other characters win you can discredit them by saying the character isn’t honest. (It probably also means you think they need buffs.) If you say a character you don’t main is honest, imo it basically means that you don’t feel like you really need to use your brain to beat them. (It probably also means that character actually does need buffs.)
the problem with that guy is that he suffers from Kazuya elitism, this is a problem all Kazuya players have apparently, i swear he sounds exactly like TMM like they repeat the same bias nonsense like they're programmed or something
This is a very well made breakdown. Thank you for it. I especially agree with your point that a lot of people in this game will tear down other people's characters due to their own insecurities. I used to do it a lot and I still do when I get really mad, but I enjoy this game so much more when I don't! Playing Tekken should be enjoyable and the community should be about having fun and being supportive, not about measuring dicks. Good on you for voicing your opinion on this, it's needed. However, one question: Are there things that maybe don't fall into the three main categories of mixups, knowledge checks and panic buttons? For example, Alisa's movement which allows her to negate spacing and footsies. It could be labelled dishonest, and to some degree it's a knowledge check and a panic button, but not entirely. Same thing would apply to Lili's boosted sidestep.
Yeah, it feels like a limited definition. Alisa, Xiaoyu and Lili are commonly considered less honest because of their movement options (which isn’t surprising as the importance of movement is generally considered the most fundamental quality that sets Tekken apart from other fighting games). Another thing I don’t think fits into those categories is like super oppressive oki. I’m not really referring to any one specific character in Tekken 8 here but just in general if a character (in any fighting game) can steamroll their way through a round off of one knockdown with very little counterplay I don’t consider that “honest” either. Although it’s tricky because if a character is equally overwhelming at the wall (like, next to no counterplay) does that make them “dishonest”? That’s tough because they did have to get you to the wall in the first place. Similarly a character with ultra oppressive oki did have to get the knockdown to begin with (as opposed to mixups, panic buttons, and movement options which are always available). Anyway the point is just that I don’t think “honesty” is something you can easily reduce to categories like this. I also kind of disagree that knowledge checks are dishonest to begin with; I didn’t pass the knowledge checks and therefore I lost, imo nothing to do with the character being honest (and I’m a noob who loses to knowledge checks ALL the time). However when the knowledge check still functions perfectly fine as a mixup even after you’ve labbed it thoroughly, then I’d be more inclined to agree that that could be considered dishonest.
My defence is at 87% and my highest stat . I play extremely defensive and offensive and I put a lot of thought into my gameplay - I main azucena and use every little detail from her character into my gameplay . Got to Fujin then retired rank . I’ve noticed recently I can play as defensive as I’d like but I don’t get the reward for defending my opponent. I’m getting chip damage , playing 50/50 constantly, and my brain is fried by the end of the match. Constantly doing 50/50s is SO tiring . Also Azucena can pull off long strings if you know the character and studied her moves ! She’s actually pretty good if you don’t play her like a scrub . What I dislike more now is people don’t choose a main they most gravitate to , it’s people choose a main depending on how overpowered they are . There’s zero versatility in gameplay anymore Hardly anything is punishable too, I literally need to be locked tf in to preform a punish FLAWLESSLY , same with kings grabs, I need super fast reflexes to break the throw and it’s almost impossible 😭. I also HATE HATE the low followed with a mid , I block the low, then my chin gets GRABBED and I get thrown into a blender. It’s a me issue but MAN it’s so so quick I can hardly even catch it , 5/10 I can defend the low high bullshit but when I get caught up in that I’m pissed
Lol same. Before Azucena, I played Lee and Bryan. My defense was 91 and offense 97 (I used offense as a defensive measure with crushing moves/armor). You are right. I always wanted to play Azu since her trailer but her broken status steered me away from her. Since v1.06 I played her and she is now my main. She is so fun. Mixing people up in the most degenerate way ever while she makes audio cues and, plays about, it's great! I love her personality too. I felt the same way while I was playing Lee about defense not being rewarding but with Azucena. I learned offense can be used defensively too. (If you don't already do). Try it. Instead of Lib mixup sometimes, punch parry when they mid jab you or step punch if they kick. In backturn sometimes just jab on your plus or do her spin under highs into an attack or 3+4 if they duck jab. Add that to her parry, sidestep punch or her launching ducking uppercut and watch your offense soar. Other than that, have fun.😁
@@Perry_Talion oh no way I mained Lee too! It’s so weird because NO ONE plays azucena like I do, I watch pro azu players and it’s always the same basic setups. I literally DOVE into her move-set in the lab and was able to pull off crazy strings with her I’ve never seen anyone do . She’s got a TON of versatility and her taunts are my favourite! I add them in between my strings to add some flair to her character and she’s by far the most fun character I’ve mained . She gets a lot of hate because 99% of people who play her use her ki charge and use 2% of her moveset making it Ofc an annoying character to go up against. She needs more hype and less hate towards her character because she’s underratedly good !
@thatsbussssin That's so cool! Well. Yeah. I felt the same way too. Every Azu I see online opens either with a launcher, Wr3,2 or Power Crush. I scream "Brother chill!" in the background. You're right. I pull off her entire moveset in game and it's crazy how almost all her moves are useful including her backflip into Lib or FF->3+4. In fact instead of dashing towards an opponent i found it more useful to just BackturnLib towards the opponent. Or her Lib 1+2 cancel to backturn. You end up wondering why people never seem to use her tools. She's so much fun, versatile and I love just how she becomes a Yoshi-lite while having fun and you sort of enjoy yourself. Maybe we should rock some privates sometime. 😄
dishonest characters to me are characters that skip and break the neutral with bs like Devil Jin ,Victor, Alisa, Yoshimitsu, Raven ....characters that can hit you from across the screen while you can't hit them, or they teleport away from your attacks... now that is what dishonest is.
As a Zafina main I’m fully aware of my unique gimmicks and knowledge checks but since I came clean and I’m being honest about that she’s still honest 😂
Yeah I think a lot of people are missing the point you're making. You can put in hundreds or even thousands of hrs being the best Cat Burglar in the world. It still doesn't make that line of work honest just because you've had to put in the time and the work to be really good at it. Kaz's line of work by the end of the day is to be a brutally efficient 50/50 monster 🤷🏿♂️
Hi! New subscriber here^^ First I guess it's good to know I'm already demonized for playing kazuya (i also play devil jin and reina to^^) Ngl i chose kazuya because back when I played a ton of Super Smash Brothers ultimate when he came out I had absolutely no exposure to Tekken before he became a DLC character for smash maybe it was that ridiculous laser move that he has. Tekken 8 is my first ever Tekken and your videos have been really helpful in assisting me in getting to understand the layout of the land of the Tekken community and sandbox! ( even though I've just now learned that apparently we are horrible people😅) joking aside this was a really helpful video and I look forward to seeing more of these discussion like videos! Ps: I'm absolutely dog shit at this game I'm just kind of here to mess around and shoot lasers
I'm gonna be honest, you sound WAAAAAAAAAY to friendly, polite and well adjusted to be a Kazuya player 😁 Regardless - welcome to Tekken - It's a toilet, but it's home. ❤
@ChadTheThirdUK Why thank you! I come from BlazBlue, MVC, and smash bros, but I guess I grew up with a different kazuya crowd in Smash Bros. Where the goal was to kill someone in the most comedic way possible. Nevertheless, I'm excited to be part of the Tekken 8 community!^^
I think part of the issue with discussing it is that for someone like me, I think cheesy, dishonest, broken, cheap, and carried, in my mind, are five pretty different and distinct things* whereas a lot of people conflate them to some extent. “This character can’t be dishonest because they’re not carried or broken,” for example, seems to be common, whereas to me they can easily be one but not the other. Personally I don’t mind when a character is dishonest by my definition when I don’t feel they’re carried or broken - imo Yoshimitsu is the perfect example. He’s a total trickster and has tools nobody else does so I don’t think he’s “honest” but being a trickster is basically his archetype and I respect the work and knowledge it takes to make his tools work effectively. Conversely I would say Paul is cheesy but not broken or dishonest, while Dragunov is kind of “all of the above”. *OP might be a better word than broken but imo both can be considered shorthand for “performs overly well at tournaments” and “cheesy” imo overlaps with “braindead”.
I think “cheap” is a better word than “dishonest.” When I think of dishonest only the knowledge check and panic button section comes to mind. To me, honest is something that’s not complex/deceptive and doesn’t break the “rules” of the game. Hworang’s pressure, Yoshi’s flash, and characters with low risk crushing attacks/panic buttons are some examples of dishonesty. Although Kazuya’s mixups are cheap I would consider him to be honest do to his simplistic moveset and lack of panic buttons.
Flash is not a dishonest tool imo, you could consider it rule breaking if you want but it's a tool designed to check mindless pressure. In a cast of characters where most of them get to pressure you with absurd offensive moves and string you to death making you constantly guess, Yoshi gets these defensive get off me tools because his pressure will never be as good. Flash isn't a panic button as it's range is too bad to cover every situation and will often whiff and get punished, especially against power crush moves which some characters have multiple and some that heat engage. Almost everything Yoshi does requires a big risk, people most often lose to him because of hesitation and not because he's that strong. I will admit though his damage in this game is crazy and the dragonfly shenanigans can be braindead, but flash imo is never worth complaining about outside of the top Yoshi players that can find the best setups with it
@@WaspGenocideI don’t play Kazuya. If you watched the other video you can see me dunking on the Kazuya elitists in the comments. You’re apart of the problem.
@@SnakeInTheRainA borderline omni-negate that can frame trap or “parry” in situations that no other character in the game can replicate screams deception, robbery, and dishonesty. It breaks almost every rule of traditional Tekken. People use it as a panic button so that’s what it is (meta). There’s in not a single fighting game on Earth where a 6-8 frame attack won’t be used as a panic button. No attack covers every scenario. It’s also not a parry so your opponent doesn’t even need to attack for it to work and it can still beat a powercrush during startup frames. It’s not super risky unless you don’t understand frame data or timing and spam it. You don’t have to use it at all and it’s very hard to launch punish on reaction unless it’s a read anyway, but the fact that the other player knows you have it is more powerful than the move itself sometimes. Yoshi also has solid fundamental tools so the risk is optional. You contradicted your self at the end too. How is he not strong when they didn’t nerf his damage and even players at the highest levels of play hesitate? Mental stack is a real thing and shouldn’t be downplayed. Even Arslan Ash is playing the character now. Something doesn’t have to be overpowered to warrant complaints and the hate towards flash is completely justified. It may be the cheapest move in the game which is one of many reasons I love Yoshi.
@@Topgamer357 this narrative of "no other character can replicate" isn't a concept exclusive to Yoshi as there are characters that have their own extremely unique tools that nobody else has. You can call it a panic button if you want but it won't be very consistent as one since flash itself isn't consistent, the frames only tell you so much on paper but the range and hitbox of the moves going against it say alot more. Being able to stop someone's constant and often braindead offense is not dishonest, but if you feel robbed because you were stringing someone for more than 5 seconds and "your turn" was stolen then that just means the buttons need to stop. 6-8 frame attacks in other fighting games (2D at least) are typically jabs or normals and can often lead to combos but you wouldn't call that a panic move. No it's not technically a parry but it's not an unblockable either so it doesn't nothing on block and more than 80% of the time it will not beat a powercrush especially from characters that have powercrushes built into strings. It's very risky to whiff anything in this game flash included because most players are super aggressive and less reactive in this game, if you whiff it you can get blown up for it. Yes Yoshi has solid fundamentals enough to not be a weak character but not strong enough for him to be considered S tier, he's a decent poking/whiff punish character at best when people aren't partying with him. I did not contradict myself at all, I said he's strong but not THAT strong, in reference to people placing him at top 5 or anywhere in S tier. I'd put him at A+ for his damage, health Regen, flash and spin but I personally reserve S tier for character who can cover every situation and dominate with low risk and or low effort. Yoshi is not a low risk and low effort character and in a predominantly aggressive game, he's a defensive character with strong defensive tools but when it comes time to press buttons, he's often too slow or too telegraphed against most characters and can be counter hit, floated or just stuck behind crazy offense and hitboxes. I can agree and have always said that yoshis strongest tool was his ability to make people hesitate, that's what he's always been and it often comes from the illusion of good offense with his stances and shenanigans (same with lei except lei has better frames and punishment imo). Arslan said he was thinking of playing Yoshi after Evo but that means nothing without consistent results or the perspective of already having played him a lot. I also agree, it doesn't have to be overpowered to warrant complaints but when you look at the rest of the cast and the nonstop guessing games you have to play throughout a match, flash ain't nothing compared to that exhaustion, not even near being the cheapest move in the game as it's not spammable. Cheap would be low risk/high reward, abusable and easy to do with consistent pay off. Overall flash is really good and can be broken in terms of how it works or doesn't work, but not broken in the sense where people think it's too strong and breaks the game
I agree with you that knowledge checks are the least dishonest and mixups are the most dishonest. IMHO, a honest character is one that once you know the matchup, unless the opponent is better than you, the character is harmless, such examples include T7 Alisa, Lili and Nina, I'm speaking from experience, I played them and know the matchups, ans I never felt threatened by them unless my opponent was better than me. I don't consider Steve and Bryan honest because to me, guard breaks and unbreakable throws/tackles aren't honest things, and Bryan has his Taunt to guard break, then the snake eyes 3+4,2 at the wall, and I can say it, Bryan is one of the characters I play in T8. Steve is similar, guard breaks, unbreakable tackle into mixup, and regarding Steve, his tracking/homing, almost everything he does is either homing or tracks so much it could as well be homing in order to force his mixup with the guard break, etc. And panic button evasion, now he has a Kempo too. But that's just me
if he didn't have his guard break for lionheart what is lionheart then? it would be ass, just like it was at the beginning of tekken 8, would you rather prefer beating everything with power crush for lionheart? Also Is heatclinch is homing yes bu lt if it wasn't his already ass heat would just be a joke, btw you can always duck his clinch aince it is a high and even if the steve player lands the heat it isnt even guaranteed he lands the throw since he has to guess right. For the homing what moves do you mean are that overpowered for homing? (Honest question). And for the kempo tbh that was the only nice thing from lionheart it even got nerfed btw and it has no blocking and alot of moves catch it to go in full combo so you can't just throw it out imo.
@@tristanherb49 I wouldn't mind the guard break as much IF he loses a good bunch of his tracking. u/f2 is homing into guard break or homing mid heat engager mixup, d2 string is pretty much homing without the VFX, in PAB the PAB 2 is a homing punch sabaki that's only -3 on block, PAB d2 is also pretty much homing without the VFX, and those are just the moves from the top off of my head. At least let me move around the damn character without having to hard read the d/f1.
@@c.c.anubisBefore I ask, I just want to say I think Guard Breaks are perfectly honest because most of them basically function as Unblockables or Unseeable Lows anyway. The context of being by the Wall are the only way that actually allows you to land Launchers. You really think Steve is Dishonest? I'd like you to describe your thoughts in detail.
@@kylefields3951 you can see guard breaks as fine, I don't. And yes, I consider Steve dishonest a f. One of the characters I tried playing in 8 because I enjoyed her in 7 was Nina, had a match vs a Steve where somehow his weaves evaded Nina's Ray Hands (1+2), which is a homing mid. When I talked to a Steve main about it, I got told it's just something inconsistent, so now I gotta pray to Harada that he somehow doesn't evade my homing mids? He also got a Kempo now, and I've had times where his jumping launcher (dunno input) went under some of Alisa's mids. He has loads of evasion, guard break and unbreakable tackle into guaranteed mixup, and to make matters worse, due to how much of his kit is either homing or "homing", you can't move around his big mixups, but he sure as hell can move around you. Evasion? Check. Big mixups? Triple check since its forced due to how many homing moves he has. Knowledge checks? While I agree that these are the lesser offenders when it comes to knowledge checks, he's loaded with huge knowledge checks that can eat you alive if you don't know them, such as the PAB 2 being a punch sabaki at only -3, where if you don't have a fast mid kick, you can't even force him to stop pressing at negative frames, and don't think about moving as the move is homing. I'm lucky that the characters I play (bar Bryan) have a 12f mid kick to stop the bs after a PAB 2, but that's a knowledge check regardless.
@@c.c.anubis The reason Steve's Weaves Evade Homing Moves is because he goes backwards in addition to moving off the centre line. He's not Evading Attacks Laterally, he's Evading them backwards. I can understand fighting Steve being incredibly frustrating because he has strong Fundamental Tools at 10-13 Frames, good Evasive Tools, and doesn't take much risk on his Attacks. The thing you have to consider though, is that when he takes Risks, he has to do 2 things, not 1. 1. Steve's Stomp has some of the worst Range for a Mixup Situation in the entire Game. So you have to win a Position in order to be able to force it. ie: Collect +Frames or push your Opponent to the Wall, so in essence has finally earned the right to Present a Threat 2. Risks half his Healthbar for a Low that AT MAXIMUM does 22 Damage (on Counter-Hit) and a Guard Break that AT MAXIMUM does 19 Damage. Hellsweep can be applied in a Losing Position, Neutral Position, or Winning Position. Stomp can only be applied in a Winning Position because the Range is so poor and you don't have Stance Options that allow you to apply it from Range such as Slide or Wavedash in->Hellsweep Mixup.
After listening to your takes, I understand why you think Kaz is cheap. I fall into the camp where I do not think Mixup is unfair and think panic buttons are super unfair.
I play Kazuya quite a bit. I’m not going to lie to you, there’s a sense of pride I get when I can implement his gameplan properly. Having said that, there is plenty about him that I could understand people calling broken. Plus frame mids, hell sweep that can wall splat, 1+4 in heat, etc. do I think he is more broken than the average for this game? No, at least in my unprofessional opinion. Does he have broken options, for sure. It’s all about how you use the character/how well you know the match up.
I think people were real upset she didnt get nerfed in the last patch. And tack on she seemed to get super popular after that But i think soon enough people will start to realize she isn’t as “dishonest” as everyone else thinks she is
Kazuya msin myself and I think he is pretty solid now. But I think every single very experienced tekken players (as in actual good tekken players) can all agree that kazuya is not a cheap character
Interesting thing. I enjoy your analysis even though I disagree with a lot of your takes. Its well thought out and interesting even if I have a different stance. For example, I dont think "honesty", or "carry" are actually useful, objective concepts and stand by the idea that it does more harm than good. But yeah, I still appreciate the content. You get my subscribe. ~ Signed, your Resident Dissident. EDIT: I actually agree with almost everything in this video. Love the content.
if he gets you with steel pedal you are back turned feet facing kazuya. they nerfed shaheen and laws slide for that reason but he can get away with it? idk if it’s lag but hellsweep cannot be blocked in that situation.
Hwoarang has a shit ton of gaps in his offense tho. Nina and Drag are very oppressive, especially Nina’s bs Heat gun shenanigans (the biggest Heat war crime in T8 tbh). Drag and Hwo are just scary af in Heat, due to the immense chip damage, tempting you to press into some stupid shit haha
@@flemin9k i’m not but ok lmao. thanks for taking my point, and reducing it to “you must play x character,” instead of just engaging with what i said. dick jab is literally indicative of a gap, but ok dude lol
For me, an honest character is one who is visually intuitive. When you see a character's trajectory facing downward and you intuitively can tell it's a low, that's honest to me. If a character's trajectory is opposite of a move property, then it's not visually intuitive, like the character themselves are lying to you, therefore you need to lab. That's the sign of a dishonest character.
@@azuresaiyan9005 I think it’s fine to have your own conception of what it means, I’m not trying to crap on your idea, but for the sake of discussion I’ll explain why I disagree. Are feints dishonest? Like, is a move where your character visually pretends to attack and then withdraws the attack, to fake out/bait your opponent into reacting to the wrong attack, dishonest? (Often attacks that have the “sliding” input, the ones usually notated as [3,4] etc). I would argue not. To me that’s just like patience and conditioning more than anything. Conversely I would say Victor’s moves that people complain about the most (b1+2 for example) are pretty visually intuitive and yet it’s the speed, safety, and strength/effectiveness of those attacks that can make his playstyle feel dishonest. Or at least I wouldn’t say they’re inherently dishonest, and less likely to be dishonest in Tekken. A good counterexample would be MK11 Scorpion’s hellport cancel which could be considered a feint, and that was a character that was hated on release for that reason and that dominated tournaments. The threat behind it was so strong that the feint let him get away with almost anything. When it was nerfed from a mid to a high (making all his options from it beatable with a crouch jab) all the frauds dropped him and the character actually became pretty honest. To me I think honesty is “does this character have a bag of tricks that are difficult to deal with, and can that bag of tricks readily be the basis of a game winning plan?” If yes then in my mind the character is not honest. (I play Nina and I don’t think she’s honest by nearly any definition, but that’s why I myself wouldn’t call her honest. It’s kind of what I like about her though; I do feel like she’s kind of “honestly dishonest” in a way, and I’d say the same about Yoshimitsu and maybe Zafina… I’ll have to figure out how to express that idea better.)
@@blazaybla22 Dude, I'm not reading that wall of text when all I did is provide my perspective. You're not gonna change it. I've played these games long enough to come to my general conclusion.
@@azuresaiyan9005 Lol relax man, I tried to clarify multiple times I’m not trying to change your mind. You shared your opinion, I shared mine for the sake of discussion, if you’re not interested it’s all good. If the issue is that it’s too long, you can boil it down to “are feints like the sliding input moves automatically dishonest?” I just don’t think they are, if you do that’s fine and if you don’t want to discuss it that’s fine too lmao
@@blazaybla22 I generally agree with both of you. I will agree most with OP on the case of Zafina. If the character is visually intuitive but the player fakes you out. That is just being checkmated and I love that. What I find horrible about Zafina is how. Even with lab. In a day or two. The same things get you She goes up attack goes low. She dives with delayed timing where the attack proccs when she licks your toes but the attack is mid. Her next attacks then look visually ambiguous. She abuses the lag in your brain where it asks, "What happened?" by the time she is done. A chunk of your health is deleted. Oof.
I would classify Honesty with how hard a character is to master and if the character gets heavily carries by certain stuff, for example Victor/Lucky Chloe/Eddy are extremely gimmicky with brain dead combos and absurd damage, imo the most honest character is Shaheen (maybe Yoshi trolling?? It takes a lot of practice to be a high level troll)
I totally disagree with this actually. But respectfully so. The reason I say it is because I think it’s important to maintain a distinction between whether a character is “carried”/“easy mode” and whether they are “honest”. Like, okay, I’d say Dragunov is both carried and dishonest. But on the other hand I’d never say Yoshi is carried and at the same time I wouldn’t say he’s honest, similarly I am a Nina main and at least as a noob I wouldn’t say she’s carried but I’d never say she’s “honest.” She’s not really made to be honest, that’s part of why I think she’s fun. She’s like an “honestly dishonest” character. Anyway I think honest vs dishonest is like - does this character have a bag of tricks that can steal a match from someone “playing honestly”? If so they’re not inherently “an honest character”. Like Paul for example, I can see why people say he’s honest at high levels of play. For me still learning his mixups it doesn’t feel that way but I can see how once someone knows the moveset in and out he’d be honest. IMO the definition of dishonest is Victor’s b1+2 fast armored very safe on block heat engager. I don’t even really have much an issue with him having it lol but to me it is the perfect example of something that isn’t honest. And I’d actually still say it’s not honest even if (let’s say) it required frame perfect inputs because that’s just not really what I’m considering in my analysis of “honesty”.
"Kazuyas are the biggest gaslighting operation ever" 😆 This is the TRUTH. "Kazuya is honest and undertuned." "Kazuya volunteers at an orphanage." Come on.
As a Leo main, I would say he is kind of cheap. It is hard for Leo to get offense started and usually gets blown out by other characters with better tracking and utilities. Hence the player representation in tournament play. Just this past event in the Mixup 2024, the Leo's that played got decimated on stream.
Cant say anything about Kazuya mains cause their ego breaks, Kazuya is by far the most boring matchup in the entire game cause its just a 50 50, Cant sidewalk shit he got fast homing mids and in heat his ff2 is literal almost impossible to step
i strongly disslike a large portion of the kazuya community who just refuse to understand what about the kazuya 50/50 is so annoying i main steve but i play kazuya as my secondary and might even have the same if not more time on him atm, kazuya has a built in casino with his 50/50 admitedly its not omnipotent the hellsweep f,f3 mixup is not completely unseeable as nuts as that sounds but ONLY out of wavedash if you hold db and wait for either a hellsweep that you insta block by keeping your db going of a ff3 the ff3 animation raises kazuya so that you can visually see that and react by releasing the db into a b, Now that is possible but its fucking HARD and of course kazuya can just cd1+2 or instant while standing 2 out of wavedash and that becomes irrelevant but atleast with instant while standing 2 its hard as FUCK to do. The reason most kazuyas get increadibly butt hurt when they are called dishonest is both what you said with having to work extra hard in defence scenarios (which is 100% true) but its also that the reward for guessing right is massive so the kazuya player feels the same stress and frustration from there OWN 50/50, Now thats expected tbh because sometimes your opponent is just in your fucking head and that goes both ways but while playing kazuya you dont feel that you feel the success of outplaying your opponent or the increadibly annoying failing of your mixup that to many kazuyas they attribute to luck, I wish more players could look at there characters objectively but dont get me wrong kaz is FAR from the worst offender in this game in fact he atleast for me is not even on the list of characters who offend consistently because you can atleast start to read your opponent but this being tekken 8 with no infinite rematch that is very very hard to do in a best of 3.
To be fair a lot of people have played the game for so long that they understand the game intuitively, but may not be able to explain it well or break it down.
Imo, the only char that relies on pure Tekken 95% of the time and cant really outcheese u in anyway, is Bryan. Every other char have a certain tool that can be abused if u dont have the knowledge. With Bryan u can just block. Until we go to the wall, where he becomes a proper T8 machine with his neo eraser gimmicks and taunt set ups, if you have the execution.
How many Kazuya players have made it to finals in major Tekken tournaments?
You think wavuing is easy with a cd mixup? Why is Kazuya the bottom when its win rate percentages?
Keisuke is an amazing player. You complaining about Kazuya players doing mixups that, if blocked or ducked properly, are launch punishable. You kind of take away from Keisukes actual skill.
Idk man. You do you.
Kazuya players...
@@ChadTheThirdUK nice response. Very productive 👌
@@vexyboi267 How else can I respond?
I made a 30 min video explaining my position (complete with timestamps)
And I'm being challenged on things I never said 🤣
Did I say Kazuya was top tier?
Did I say Kazuya was easy to win with?
Did I say Kazuya players had no skill?
Did I say Kaisuke or Kazuya players in general were carried?
Did I say heavy mix-ups should be removed from the game?
How many Kuma players have made it to major finals? Does this mean Kuma is an honest character?
And even if we say Kuma is a dishonest character, does this mean Rangchu is a scrub? Or not deserving of recognition as one of the best players on the planet? If so, please show me where I said or even implied that.
Conversely, how many Leo's or Asuka's have we seen in the finals of majors? Does this mean THEY are honest characters?
Why are we even discussing finals results!? What does this have to do with anything!? In fact, why am I even typing this. Let me just pin your comment and be done with it.
@ChadTheThirdUK there's no point debating with these kinds of people. You extended your hand, but they only heard you attacking them (and even then its in a PLAYFUL manner). They don't understand words (like honest) can mean different things to different people. People have varying reaction speed, knowledge, and strategy. So of course some view mix ups as harder to deal with and others may view knowledge checks as harder, etc. It's hard for them to think 'oh I can see why some people think that'. They think in absolutes and 'wrong' opinions may be an attack to them and their ideologies. Similar to what you said at the end of the video, this is beyond Tekken.
@@ChadTheThirdUKbro is fed up 😭 so real
As a Kazuya main I have disown some of the other Kazuya mains because not for one second have I ever thought the vortex was a fake mixup, nor had deluded myself into thinking it wasn't frustrating to deal with. His mixups are indeed frustrating, and if the Kaz is good, hard to deal with.
Real talk I genuinely think there are like two kinds of Kazuya players. The ones who are actually super chill, point out obvious flaws in your gameplan and are genuinely good at the game, and then there are the people who just take stuff super personal and act like they’re hot stuff because of the original reputation the community has.
I am so late but I actually want to know. What is a real mixup in Tekken 8. All characters who have the nastiest stance mixups or grab mixups are often (While the rest do not have any in general) are called fake mixups. Then what is a real mixup? I only ever heard Phi call a certain character's mixups fake but never heard anyone mention certain characters having true mixups?
Is it a mixup with equal/tight frames, mixups on + frames, or is it mixups that are unseeable? I do not get it.
@@Perry_Talion Basically a fake mixup is something that can be dealt with on reaction or fuzzy block and does not require a hard read. (in general, because Jin's 1,2,3/4 mixup is reactable if you have very, very fast reflexes). Whereas a true mixup, like the Mishi 50/50, you cannot react to nor fuzzy block and thus requires a hard read.
@@Perry_Talion You will hear fake mixups, fake pressure etc, and just to add to the first response, all it means is that it appears to be real pressure/real mix but it’s really only as real if you believe it’s real. As soon as you learn the technique or secret to beating it, it becomes fake because the frame data doesn’t actually back it up as the threat it appears to be.
For example Nina pressuring with repeated ss1 cancels appears to be real because on paper if you cancel ss1 into backsway then cancel out of backsway you’re +10 on block but it’s not real because if your opponent blocks they can just jab you out of the sidestep animation. Fake mix is the same - you might think you’re forced to block mid/low but if one of the options isn’t actually the threat it seems to be, or if there’s an easy timing to fuzzy guard* then it’s fake.
*if you don’t know what that means basically let’s say the mid follow-up comes out in 15 frames then the low follow-up comes out in 20. That means if you get the timing down you can always block standing for 15-19 frames then go to block low which will result in both options getting blocked without you having to choose.
However let’s say it’s out of a crouch dash meaning the timing can be varied, then the mix becomes a real 50/50 because you no longer have a consistent timing for fuzzy guarding.
Hopefully that makes sense
@@xAxCx I see it now. I appreciate it.😁
Honest is not real, its js a term used by people who want to feel better about winning or losing with their main
it’s just for meme purposes it’s like a ptsd coping mechanism for fighting game vets even though we all are in the trenches. The only dishonest thing to me is blatant cheating.
If you say your main is honest, it’s because you feel like you’re entitled to wins so when other characters win you can discredit them by saying the character isn’t honest. (It probably also means you think they need buffs.)
If you say a character you don’t main is honest, imo it basically means that you don’t feel like you really need to use your brain to beat them. (It probably also means that character actually does need buffs.)
You have a point but as a new Bryan main. There's definitely a sliding scale.
Yes, there is a scale.
No characters are honest but some characters are more dishonest than others.
Everybody is cheap but some are more cheap.
That buff guy made an hour long video just to say, "My character is honest!"
yep, and refused to even acknowledge Nova’s video about him. instead, he dismissed all of his points, by calling him “toxic” lmao
@@dumithegreat3892😭 i watch chad and the buff guy, but i never seen nova’s vid im abt to tune in
the problem with that guy is that he suffers from Kazuya elitism, this is a problem all Kazuya players have apparently, i swear he sounds exactly like TMM like they repeat the same bias nonsense like they're programmed or something
_"Forensic detail"_ 👻
🤜🤛
@@NovaSeiken amazing video dude. I subscribed INSTANTLY. Keep up the good work!
This is a very well made breakdown. Thank you for it. I especially agree with your point that a lot of people in this game will tear down other people's characters due to their own insecurities. I used to do it a lot and I still do when I get really mad, but I enjoy this game so much more when I don't! Playing Tekken should be enjoyable and the community should be about having fun and being supportive, not about measuring dicks. Good on you for voicing your opinion on this, it's needed.
However, one question: Are there things that maybe don't fall into the three main categories of mixups, knowledge checks and panic buttons? For example, Alisa's movement which allows her to negate spacing and footsies. It could be labelled dishonest, and to some degree it's a knowledge check and a panic button, but not entirely.
Same thing would apply to Lili's boosted sidestep.
Yeah, it feels like a limited definition. Alisa, Xiaoyu and Lili are commonly considered less honest because of their movement options (which isn’t surprising as the importance of movement is generally considered the most fundamental quality that sets Tekken apart from other fighting games). Another thing I don’t think fits into those categories is like super oppressive oki. I’m not really referring to any one specific character in Tekken 8 here but just in general if a character (in any fighting game) can steamroll their way through a round off of one knockdown with very little counterplay I don’t consider that “honest” either. Although it’s tricky because if a character is equally overwhelming at the wall (like, next to no counterplay) does that make them “dishonest”? That’s tough because they did have to get you to the wall in the first place. Similarly a character with ultra oppressive oki did have to get the knockdown to begin with (as opposed to mixups, panic buttons, and movement options which are always available). Anyway the point is just that I don’t think “honesty” is something you can easily reduce to categories like this. I also kind of disagree that knowledge checks are dishonest to begin with; I didn’t pass the knowledge checks and therefore I lost, imo nothing to do with the character being honest (and I’m a noob who loses to knowledge checks ALL the time). However when the knowledge check still functions perfectly fine as a mixup even after you’ve labbed it thoroughly, then I’d be more inclined to agree that that could be considered dishonest.
I like these type of videos I feel like I'm learning alot about Tekken culture.
“Just do this when they do that move” okay what happens when I just don’t do the move
Class is in session! 🤓📚✍️
As an Alisa main I know my character gives ppl cancer but I get on and play her anyway. I Have the time of my life too
My defence is at 87% and my highest stat . I play extremely defensive and offensive and I put a lot of thought into my gameplay - I main azucena and use every little detail from her character into my gameplay . Got to Fujin then retired rank . I’ve noticed recently I can play as defensive as I’d like but I don’t get the reward for defending my opponent. I’m getting chip damage , playing 50/50 constantly, and my brain is fried by the end of the match. Constantly doing 50/50s is SO tiring .
Also Azucena can pull off long strings if you know the character and studied her moves ! She’s actually pretty good if you don’t play her like a scrub . What I dislike more now is people don’t choose a main they most gravitate to , it’s people choose a main depending on how overpowered they are . There’s zero versatility in gameplay anymore
Hardly anything is punishable too, I literally need to be locked tf in to preform a punish FLAWLESSLY , same with kings grabs, I need super fast reflexes to break the throw and it’s almost impossible 😭. I also HATE HATE the low followed with a mid , I block the low, then my chin gets GRABBED and I get thrown into a blender. It’s a me issue but MAN it’s so so quick I can hardly even catch it , 5/10 I can defend the low high bullshit but when I get caught up in that I’m pissed
Lol same. Before Azucena, I played Lee and Bryan. My defense was 91 and offense 97 (I used offense as a defensive measure with crushing moves/armor). You are right. I always wanted to play Azu since her trailer but her broken status steered me away from her. Since v1.06 I played her and she is now my main. She is so fun. Mixing people up in the most degenerate way ever while she makes audio cues and, plays about, it's great! I love her personality too. I felt the same way while I was playing Lee about defense not being rewarding but with Azucena. I learned offense can be used defensively too. (If you don't already do). Try it. Instead of Lib mixup sometimes, punch parry when they mid jab you or step punch if they kick. In backturn sometimes just jab on your plus or do her spin under highs into an attack or 3+4 if they duck jab. Add that to her parry, sidestep punch or her launching ducking uppercut and watch your offense soar. Other than that, have fun.😁
@@Perry_Talion oh no way I mained Lee too! It’s so weird because NO ONE plays azucena like I do, I watch pro azu players and it’s always the same basic setups. I literally DOVE into her move-set in the lab and was able to pull off crazy strings with her I’ve never seen anyone do . She’s got a TON of versatility and her taunts are my favourite! I add them in between my strings to add some flair to her character and she’s by far the most fun character I’ve mained . She gets a lot of hate because 99% of people who play her use her ki charge and use 2% of her moveset making it Ofc an annoying character to go up against. She needs more hype and less hate towards her character because she’s underratedly good !
@thatsbussssin That's so cool! Well. Yeah. I felt the same way too. Every Azu I see online opens either with a launcher, Wr3,2 or Power Crush. I scream "Brother chill!" in the background. You're right. I pull off her entire moveset in game and it's crazy how almost all her moves are useful including her backflip into Lib or FF->3+4. In fact instead of dashing towards an opponent i found it more useful to just BackturnLib towards the opponent. Or her Lib 1+2 cancel to backturn. You end up wondering why people never seem to use her tools. She's so much fun, versatile and I love just how she becomes a Yoshi-lite while having fun and you sort of enjoy yourself. Maybe we should rock some privates sometime. 😄
dishonest characters to me are characters that skip and break the neutral with bs like Devil Jin ,Victor, Alisa, Yoshimitsu, Raven ....characters that can hit you from across the screen while you can't hit them, or they teleport away from your attacks... now that is what dishonest is.
I appreciate the way you perceive the world including Tekken.
As a Zafina main I’m fully aware of my unique gimmicks and knowledge checks but since I came clean and I’m being honest about that she’s still honest 😂
Yeah I think a lot of people are missing the point you're making. You can put in hundreds or even thousands of hrs being the best Cat Burglar in the world. It still doesn't make that line of work honest just because you've had to put in the time and the work to be really good at it. Kaz's line of work by the end of the day is to be a brutally efficient 50/50 monster 🤷🏿♂️
Hi! New subscriber here^^
First I guess it's good to know I'm already demonized for playing kazuya (i also play devil jin and reina to^^)
Ngl i chose kazuya because back when I played a ton of Super Smash Brothers ultimate when he came out I had absolutely no exposure to Tekken before he became a DLC character for smash maybe it was that ridiculous laser move that he has.
Tekken 8 is my first ever Tekken and your videos have been really helpful in assisting me in getting to understand the layout of the land of the Tekken community and sandbox!
( even though I've just now learned that apparently we are horrible people😅)
joking aside this was a really helpful video and I look forward to seeing more of these discussion like videos!
Ps: I'm absolutely dog shit at this game I'm just kind of here to mess around and shoot lasers
I'm gonna be honest, you sound WAAAAAAAAAY to friendly, polite and well adjusted to be a Kazuya player 😁
Regardless - welcome to Tekken - It's a toilet, but it's home. ❤
@ChadTheThirdUK Why thank you! I come from BlazBlue, MVC, and smash bros, but I guess I grew up with a different kazuya crowd in Smash Bros. Where the goal was to kill someone in the most comedic way possible. Nevertheless, I'm excited to be part of the Tekken 8 community!^^
the only honest part about teeeken is random character select.
goated layton ost
Only real ones know about the Mystery room lol
I played for honor from 2017 - 2023 I remember everything even after the ccu you can still react to everything.
I think part of the issue with discussing it is that for someone like me, I think cheesy, dishonest, broken, cheap, and carried, in my mind, are five pretty different and distinct things* whereas a lot of people conflate them to some extent.
“This character can’t be dishonest because they’re not carried or broken,” for example, seems to be common, whereas to me they can easily be one but not the other. Personally I don’t mind when a character is dishonest by my definition when I don’t feel they’re carried or broken - imo Yoshimitsu is the perfect example. He’s a total trickster and has tools nobody else does so I don’t think he’s “honest” but being a trickster is basically his archetype and I respect the work and knowledge it takes to make his tools work effectively. Conversely I would say Paul is cheesy but not broken or dishonest, while Dragunov is kind of “all of the above”.
*OP might be a better word than broken but imo both can be considered shorthand for “performs overly well at tournaments” and “cheesy” imo overlaps with “braindead”.
I think “cheap” is a better word than “dishonest.” When I think of dishonest only the knowledge check and panic button section comes to mind. To me, honest is something that’s not complex/deceptive and doesn’t break the “rules” of the game. Hworang’s pressure, Yoshi’s flash, and characters with low risk crushing attacks/panic buttons are some examples of dishonesty. Although Kazuya’s mixups are cheap I would consider him to be honest do to his simplistic moveset and lack of panic buttons.
Flash is not a dishonest tool imo, you could consider it rule breaking if you want but it's a tool designed to check mindless pressure. In a cast of characters where most of them get to pressure you with absurd offensive moves and string you to death making you constantly guess, Yoshi gets these defensive get off me tools because his pressure will never be as good. Flash isn't a panic button as it's range is too bad to cover every situation and will often whiff and get punished, especially against power crush moves which some characters have multiple and some that heat engage. Almost everything Yoshi does requires a big risk, people most often lose to him because of hesitation and not because he's that strong.
I will admit though his damage in this game is crazy and the dragonfly shenanigans can be braindead, but flash imo is never worth complaining about outside of the top Yoshi players that can find the best setups with it
So you've basically just changed the definition so you can keep calling your character honest.
@@WaspGenocideI don’t play Kazuya. If you watched the other video you can see me dunking on the Kazuya elitists in the comments. You’re apart of the problem.
@@SnakeInTheRainA borderline omni-negate that can frame trap or “parry” in situations that no other character in the game can replicate screams deception, robbery, and dishonesty. It breaks almost every rule of traditional Tekken. People use it as a panic button so that’s what it is (meta). There’s in not a single fighting game on Earth where a 6-8 frame attack won’t be used as a panic button. No attack covers every scenario. It’s also not a parry so your opponent doesn’t even need to attack for it to work and it can still beat a powercrush during startup frames. It’s not super risky unless you don’t understand frame data or timing and spam it. You don’t have to use it at all and it’s very hard to launch punish on reaction unless it’s a read anyway, but the fact that the other player knows you have it is more powerful than the move itself sometimes. Yoshi also has solid fundamental tools so the risk is optional. You contradicted your self at the end too. How is he not strong when they didn’t nerf his damage and even players at the highest levels of play hesitate? Mental stack is a real thing and shouldn’t be downplayed. Even Arslan Ash is playing the character now. Something doesn’t have to be overpowered to warrant complaints and the hate towards flash is completely justified. It may be the cheapest move in the game which is one of many reasons I love Yoshi.
@@Topgamer357 this narrative of "no other character can replicate" isn't a concept exclusive to Yoshi as there are characters that have their own extremely unique tools that nobody else has. You can call it a panic button if you want but it won't be very consistent as one since flash itself isn't consistent, the frames only tell you so much on paper but the range and hitbox of the moves going against it say alot more. Being able to stop someone's constant and often braindead offense is not dishonest, but if you feel robbed because you were stringing someone for more than 5 seconds and "your turn" was stolen then that just means the buttons need to stop.
6-8 frame attacks in other fighting games (2D at least) are typically jabs or normals and can often lead to combos but you wouldn't call that a panic move. No it's not technically a parry but it's not an unblockable either so it doesn't nothing on block and more than 80% of the time it will not beat a powercrush especially from characters that have powercrushes built into strings.
It's very risky to whiff anything in this game flash included because most players are super aggressive and less reactive in this game, if you whiff it you can get blown up for it. Yes Yoshi has solid fundamentals enough to not be a weak character but not strong enough for him to be considered S tier, he's a decent poking/whiff punish character at best when people aren't partying with him.
I did not contradict myself at all, I said he's strong but not THAT strong, in reference to people placing him at top 5 or anywhere in S tier. I'd put him at A+ for his damage, health Regen, flash and spin but I personally reserve S tier for character who can cover every situation and dominate with low risk and or low effort. Yoshi is not a low risk and low effort character and in a predominantly aggressive game, he's a defensive character with strong defensive tools but when it comes time to press buttons, he's often too slow or too telegraphed against most characters and can be counter hit, floated or just stuck behind crazy offense and hitboxes.
I can agree and have always said that yoshis strongest tool was his ability to make people hesitate, that's what he's always been and it often comes from the illusion of good offense with his stances and shenanigans (same with lei except lei has better frames and punishment imo). Arslan said he was thinking of playing Yoshi after Evo but that means nothing without consistent results or the perspective of already having played him a lot. I also agree, it doesn't have to be overpowered to warrant complaints but when you look at the rest of the cast and the nonstop guessing games you have to play throughout a match, flash ain't nothing compared to that exhaustion, not even near being the cheapest move in the game as it's not spammable. Cheap would be low risk/high reward, abusable and easy to do with consistent pay off. Overall flash is really good and can be broken in terms of how it works or doesn't work, but not broken in the sense where people think it's too strong and breaks the game
I agree with you that knowledge checks are the least dishonest and mixups are the most dishonest.
IMHO, a honest character is one that once you know the matchup, unless the opponent is better than you, the character is harmless, such examples include T7 Alisa, Lili and Nina, I'm speaking from experience, I played them and know the matchups, ans I never felt threatened by them unless my opponent was better than me.
I don't consider Steve and Bryan honest because to me, guard breaks and unbreakable throws/tackles aren't honest things, and Bryan has his Taunt to guard break, then the snake eyes 3+4,2 at the wall, and I can say it, Bryan is one of the characters I play in T8. Steve is similar, guard breaks, unbreakable tackle into mixup, and regarding Steve, his tracking/homing, almost everything he does is either homing or tracks so much it could as well be homing in order to force his mixup with the guard break, etc. And panic button evasion, now he has a Kempo too. But that's just me
if he didn't have his guard break for lionheart what is lionheart then? it would be ass, just like it was at the beginning of tekken 8, would you rather prefer beating everything with power crush for lionheart? Also Is heatclinch is homing yes bu lt if it wasn't his already ass heat would just be a joke, btw you can always duck his clinch aince it is a high and even if the steve player lands the heat it isnt even guaranteed he lands the throw since he has to guess right. For the homing what moves do you mean are that overpowered for homing? (Honest question).
And for the kempo tbh that was the only nice thing from lionheart it even got nerfed btw and it has no blocking and alot of moves catch it to go in full combo so you can't just throw it out imo.
@@tristanherb49 I wouldn't mind the guard break as much IF he loses a good bunch of his tracking. u/f2 is homing into guard break or homing mid heat engager mixup, d2 string is pretty much homing without the VFX, in PAB the PAB 2 is a homing punch sabaki that's only -3 on block, PAB d2 is also pretty much homing without the VFX, and those are just the moves from the top off of my head. At least let me move around the damn character without having to hard read the d/f1.
@@c.c.anubisBefore I ask, I just want to say I think Guard Breaks are perfectly honest because most of them basically function as Unblockables or Unseeable Lows anyway. The context of being by the Wall are the only way that actually allows you to land Launchers. You really think Steve is Dishonest? I'd like you to describe your thoughts in detail.
@@kylefields3951 you can see guard breaks as fine, I don't.
And yes, I consider Steve dishonest a f. One of the characters I tried playing in 8 because I enjoyed her in 7 was Nina, had a match vs a Steve where somehow his weaves evaded Nina's Ray Hands (1+2), which is a homing mid. When I talked to a Steve main about it, I got told it's just something inconsistent, so now I gotta pray to Harada that he somehow doesn't evade my homing mids? He also got a Kempo now, and I've had times where his jumping launcher (dunno input) went under some of Alisa's mids. He has loads of evasion, guard break and unbreakable tackle into guaranteed mixup, and to make matters worse, due to how much of his kit is either homing or "homing", you can't move around his big mixups, but he sure as hell can move around you.
Evasion? Check. Big mixups? Triple check since its forced due to how many homing moves he has. Knowledge checks? While I agree that these are the lesser offenders when it comes to knowledge checks, he's loaded with huge knowledge checks that can eat you alive if you don't know them, such as the PAB 2 being a punch sabaki at only -3, where if you don't have a fast mid kick, you can't even force him to stop pressing at negative frames, and don't think about moving as the move is homing. I'm lucky that the characters I play (bar Bryan) have a 12f mid kick to stop the bs after a PAB 2, but that's a knowledge check regardless.
@@c.c.anubis The reason Steve's Weaves Evade Homing Moves is because he goes backwards in addition to moving off the centre line. He's not Evading Attacks Laterally, he's Evading them backwards. I can understand fighting Steve being incredibly frustrating because he has strong Fundamental Tools at 10-13 Frames, good Evasive Tools, and doesn't take much risk on his Attacks. The thing you have to consider though, is that when he takes Risks, he has to do 2 things, not 1.
1. Steve's Stomp has some of the worst Range for a Mixup Situation in the entire Game. So you have to win a Position in order to be able to force it. ie: Collect +Frames or push your Opponent to the Wall, so in essence has finally earned the right to Present a Threat
2. Risks half his Healthbar for a Low that AT MAXIMUM does 22 Damage (on Counter-Hit) and a Guard Break that AT MAXIMUM does 19 Damage.
Hellsweep can be applied in a Losing Position, Neutral Position, or Winning Position. Stomp can only be applied in a Winning Position because the Range is so poor and you don't have Stance Options that allow you to apply it from Range such as Slide or Wavedash in->Hellsweep Mixup.
After listening to your takes, I understand why you think Kaz is cheap. I fall into the camp where I do not think Mixup is unfair and think panic buttons are super unfair.
There are so many low risk/hard to punish moves that evade mids
my guy really made a 35 minute essay about salt
I play Kazuya quite a bit. I’m not going to lie to you, there’s a sense of pride I get when I can implement his gameplan properly. Having said that, there is plenty about him that I could understand people calling broken. Plus frame mids, hell sweep that can wall splat, 1+4 in heat, etc. do I think he is more broken than the average for this game? No, at least in my unprofessional opinion. Does he have broken options, for sure. It’s all about how you use the character/how well you know the match up.
honest is my character. only my character. You are welcome for the one unifying right answer.
Alisa mains not even mentioned, we dodged a bullet again 😂
He's doesn't think pressure is dishonesty. Besides only chainsaw pressure is bs unlike nina or Dragonov who dont need stance to pressure
I think people were real upset she didnt get nerfed in the last patch. And tack on she seemed to get super popular after that
But i think soon enough people will start to realize she isn’t as “dishonest” as everyone else thinks she is
@@flemin9k Her movement is also considered BS by some tho.
@@WaspGenocide lilies lide step is still like double of alisas
@@flemin9kThe greatest trick Nina players ever pulled was convincing people her ss1 pressure is real
Kazuya msin myself and I think he is pretty solid now.
But I think every single very experienced tekken players (as in actual good tekken players) can all agree that kazuya is not a cheap character
Interesting thing. I enjoy your analysis even though I disagree with a lot of your takes. Its well thought out and interesting even if I have a different stance.
For example, I dont think "honesty", or "carry" are actually useful, objective concepts and stand by the idea that it does more harm than good.
But yeah, I still appreciate the content. You get my subscribe.
~ Signed, your Resident Dissident.
EDIT: I actually agree with almost everything in this video. Love the content.
if he gets you with steel pedal you are back turned feet facing kazuya.
they nerfed shaheen and laws slide for that reason but he can get away with it? idk if it’s lag but hellsweep cannot be blocked in that situation.
I think you missed characters with crazy amount of offensive pressure as a key dishonesty feature such as Hworang Dragonov nina
Hwoarang has a shit ton of gaps in his offense tho. Nina and Drag are very oppressive, especially Nina’s bs Heat gun shenanigans (the biggest Heat war crime in T8 tbh). Drag and Hwo are just scary af in Heat, due to the immense chip damage, tempting you to press into some stupid shit haha
@@dumithegreat3892 your obviously a Hworang player crouch jabbing doesn't count as a gap
@@flemin9k i’m not but ok lmao. thanks for taking my point, and reducing it to “you must play x character,” instead of just engaging with what i said. dick jab is literally indicative of a gap, but ok dude lol
Love the content man, keep it up.
For me, an honest character is one who is visually intuitive. When you see a character's trajectory facing downward and you intuitively can tell it's a low, that's honest to me.
If a character's trajectory is opposite of a move property, then it's not visually intuitive, like the character themselves are lying to you, therefore you need to lab. That's the sign of a dishonest character.
@@azuresaiyan9005 I think it’s fine to have your own conception of what it means, I’m not trying to crap on your idea, but for the sake of discussion I’ll explain why I disagree.
Are feints dishonest? Like, is a move where your character visually pretends to attack and then withdraws the attack, to fake out/bait your opponent into reacting to the wrong attack, dishonest? (Often attacks that have the “sliding” input, the ones usually notated as [3,4] etc).
I would argue not. To me that’s just like patience and conditioning more than anything. Conversely I would say Victor’s moves that people complain about the most (b1+2 for example) are pretty visually intuitive and yet it’s the speed, safety, and strength/effectiveness of those attacks that can make his playstyle feel dishonest.
Or at least I wouldn’t say they’re inherently dishonest, and less likely to be dishonest in Tekken. A good counterexample would be MK11 Scorpion’s hellport cancel which could be considered a feint, and that was a character that was hated on release for that reason and that dominated tournaments. The threat behind it was so strong that the feint let him get away with almost anything. When it was nerfed from a mid to a high (making all his options from it beatable with a crouch jab) all the frauds dropped him and the character actually became pretty honest.
To me I think honesty is “does this character have a bag of tricks that are difficult to deal with, and can that bag of tricks readily be the basis of a game winning plan?” If yes then in my mind the character is not honest. (I play Nina and I don’t think she’s honest by nearly any definition, but that’s why I myself wouldn’t call her honest. It’s kind of what I like about her though; I do feel like she’s kind of “honestly dishonest” in a way, and I’d say the same about Yoshimitsu and maybe Zafina… I’ll have to figure out how to express that idea better.)
@@blazaybla22 Dude, I'm not reading that wall of text when all I did is provide my perspective. You're not gonna change it. I've played these games long enough to come to my general conclusion.
@@azuresaiyan9005 Lol relax man, I tried to clarify multiple times I’m not trying to change your mind. You shared your opinion, I shared mine for the sake of discussion, if you’re not interested it’s all good. If the issue is that it’s too long, you can boil it down to “are feints like the sliding input moves automatically dishonest?” I just don’t think they are, if you do that’s fine and if you don’t want to discuss it that’s fine too lmao
@@blazaybla22 I generally agree with both of you. I will agree most with OP on the case of Zafina. If the character is visually intuitive but the player fakes you out. That is just being checkmated and I love that.
What I find horrible about Zafina is how. Even with lab. In a day or two. The same things get you She goes up attack goes low. She dives with delayed timing where the attack proccs when she licks your toes but the attack is mid. Her next attacks then look visually ambiguous.
She abuses the lag in your brain where it asks, "What happened?" by the time she is done. A chunk of your health is deleted. Oof.
Havent watched the video but what is honesty in Tekken 8? Well thats a very easy answer:
*Non-excistant.* 😌
Honesty: Kazuya
Dishonesty: Not Kazuya
Ez
kek
I would classify Honesty with how hard a character is to master and if the character gets heavily carries by certain stuff, for example Victor/Lucky Chloe/Eddy are extremely gimmicky with brain dead combos and absurd damage, imo the most honest character is Shaheen (maybe Yoshi trolling?? It takes a lot of practice to be a high level troll)
I totally disagree with this actually. But respectfully so. The reason I say it is because I think it’s important to maintain a distinction between whether a character is “carried”/“easy mode” and whether they are “honest”. Like, okay, I’d say Dragunov is both carried and dishonest. But on the other hand I’d never say Yoshi is carried and at the same time I wouldn’t say he’s honest, similarly I am a Nina main and at least as a noob I wouldn’t say she’s carried but I’d never say she’s “honest.” She’s not really made to be honest, that’s part of why I think she’s fun. She’s like an “honestly dishonest” character.
Anyway I think honest vs dishonest is like - does this character have a bag of tricks that can steal a match from someone “playing honestly”? If so they’re not inherently “an honest character”. Like Paul for example, I can see why people say he’s honest at high levels of play. For me still learning his mixups it doesn’t feel that way but I can see how once someone knows the moveset in and out he’d be honest. IMO the definition of dishonest is Victor’s b1+2 fast armored very safe on block heat engager. I don’t even really have much an issue with him having it lol but to me it is the perfect example of something that isn’t honest. And I’d actually still say it’s not honest even if (let’s say) it required frame perfect inputs because that’s just not really what I’m considering in my analysis of “honesty”.
"Kazuyas are the biggest gaslighting operation ever" 😆 This is the TRUTH.
"Kazuya is honest and undertuned."
"Kazuya volunteers at an orphanage."
Come on.
I FUCKING LOVE THIS GUY. 😂
As a Leo main, I would say he is kind of cheap. It is hard for Leo to get offense started and usually gets blown out by other characters with better tracking and utilities. Hence the player representation in tournament play. Just this past event in the Mixup 2024, the Leo's that played got decimated on stream.
If mix ups are dishonest then there is no honesty in fighting games
Cant say anything about Kazuya mains cause their ego breaks, Kazuya is by far the most boring matchup in the entire game cause its just a 50 50, Cant sidewalk shit he got fast homing mids and in heat his ff2 is literal almost impossible to step
i strongly disslike a large portion of the kazuya community who just refuse to understand what about the kazuya 50/50 is so annoying i main steve but i play kazuya as my secondary and might even have the same if not more time on him atm,
kazuya has a built in casino with his 50/50 admitedly its not omnipotent the hellsweep f,f3 mixup is not completely unseeable as nuts as that sounds but ONLY out of wavedash if you hold db and wait for either a hellsweep that you insta block by keeping your db going of a ff3 the ff3 animation raises kazuya so that you can visually see that and react by releasing the db into a b,
Now that is possible but its fucking HARD and of course kazuya can just cd1+2 or instant while standing 2 out of wavedash and that becomes irrelevant but atleast with instant while standing 2 its hard as FUCK to do.
The reason most kazuyas get increadibly butt hurt when they are called dishonest is both what you said with having to work extra hard in defence scenarios (which is 100% true) but its also that the reward for guessing right is massive so the kazuya player feels the same stress and frustration from there OWN 50/50,
Now thats expected tbh because sometimes your opponent is just in your fucking head and that goes both ways but while playing kazuya you dont feel that you feel the success of outplaying your opponent or the increadibly annoying failing of your mixup that to many kazuyas they attribute to luck,
I wish more players could look at there characters objectively but dont get me wrong kaz is FAR from the worst offender in this game in fact he atleast for me is not even on the list of characters who offend consistently because you can atleast start to read your opponent but this being tekken 8 with no infinite rematch that is very very hard to do in a best of 3.
Tekken players have been elitist assholes for years. Just sidewalk left bro.
To be fair a lot of people have played the game for so long that they understand the game intuitively, but may not be able to explain it well or break it down.
Not a PowerPoint 😂‼️
Imo, the only char that relies on pure Tekken 95% of the time and cant really outcheese u in anyway, is Bryan. Every other char have a certain tool that can be abused if u dont have the knowledge. With Bryan u can just block. Until we go to the wall, where he becomes a proper T8 machine with his neo eraser gimmicks and taunt set ups, if you have the execution.