Fun Fact: Anyone living in London can swing by the Samsung store in Kings Cross to try one of these for free! I've gone on it numerous times and it's an absolute blast.
I'd imagine it's because you can't see the wheel you are using. You can't see your fingers on the buttons. It helps make it feel more real when you know it isn't just in the headset.
That's such a cool way to simulate G forces, I never even considered that airbags could do that! I like the nails by the way, I think it looks good on you
@@yoavmend1909 no one will take you serious if you paint your nails, its good that its black and not a goofy color but your internet buddies wont be d-riding you in the real world. A man painting his nails gives off a very strange image for most people and you will get teased
@@yoavmend1909 obviously your friends will take eachother seriously but turning up into a job interview looking like that will get you rejected. Plus you'll get clowned
I was lucky enough to give the rig @3:05 a whirl last year, whilst at Cranfield on a work visit. Only a couple of laps but an awesome experience but absolute sensory overload for a bedroom dweller like myself. Brilliant bit of kit though!
It's highly moddable, the other sims aren't. It doesn't matter how much better the other sims are if the user isn't allowed to f**k about with the internals. AC is the sim of choice for this sort of stuff.
I never understand why all high end (iow expensive) cockpits always manage to mess up one or more fundamental parts. In this case the screen, not only is there just the one big screen but it's also a mile away from you. I don't care how good the rest of it is I would really struggle to drive with it
@@Jimmy_Broadbent another comment made a good point, with vr you cant see the wheel and your fingers doing stuff. If you can afford one of these you can afford to dedicate a room or garage and have a massive wrap around screen
I would LOVE to see you you back there!! You could do a live stream or put up a whole unedited (or lightly edited) long form video! Please do it for my birthday! I'll be 40 in March but that sim rig makes me feel 12. :)
"J to the I, to the double M Y" His name is Jimmy, but you can call him Jim He plays a bunch of arcade sims He started his a career in a shed Got a lot of use from that tiny bed (wink, wink) Then one day he saw the light He became a real race driver and to his delight Praga hit Jimmy with a contract, he could not refuse (sort of) He got in the car, you can smell the fumes, he rounded every corner, he shouted "OH GOD" as he drove passed you! His name is Jimmy... "J to the I, to the double M Y".
Cheap wheel is good enough to tell what’s going on with car so this must be really good. I’ve also driven without sound that was a bit challenging lol good work mate
Surprised they haven't added a way for the helmet to pushed by a ram or pulled by a wire. The neck strain seems like one of the hardest things to deal with when you are learning to drive a F1 car.
@@jerrywang592 Oh yeah I guess so, oops we accidentally ramped up the force feedback on the helmet and broke the test drivers neck, could be a tough one for the insurance. I think they would be able to do it safely if they put some thought into it though, I mean they don't need full extension as far as a neck can go, even a few centimeters of travel would give the sensation and something push against.
I feel like if the steering wheel moved it would give a sensation of G-Force too, say the wheel pushes out from the car when braking, so you have to lay your weight into it to keep it from coming forwards, and it moves into the car when accelerating so it gives that feeling of you having to pull yourself towards it
Would be interesting to have a consumer version of this. Like a small compressor and just the seatbelts so you can put it on any seat basically. The compressor could turn on during gear changes to get that sound like in a real car.
when cranfield first started developing the sims ,, me and a co worker had the pleasure of fitting the aircon into he new rooms inside the hanger there ,,,,,,,,,, great guys to work for they had a second hand shell and was in early stages but it was so realistic at the time then one driver used to hold onto the side as he was going round a corner same as in the real car
yeah, the f1 sim is cool and all, but i'm more interested in THAT(2:40) shifter, it feels good both in h patter and sequential modes? for the few frame i see here it looks like it uses a very similar mechanism to the prosim one, very interesting, i'm curious how they achieve a sequential mode too with that design
They should sponsor you and make you an ambassador. Who better than a person that started on sims, graduated to actual racing, and finished on the podium.
I don’t think this set up can simulating enough ‘G force’. It’s just simulated some little motions. Even when I fly level D full flight simulator built for an airline pilot training with six 10 feet long’s hydraulic actuators under me, those sims can still only simulate partial G especially when we do an ‘unusual attitude’ sessions (high nose, low nose, steep banking). And those level D sims costs tens of millions of dollars each. I saw one sim that can simulate some real(but still not 100%) G forces for a space shuttle. But that thing ran full height inside a 10+ stories buildings! Btw, we’re not talking about a centrifuge that’s use for a fighter pilot G LOC training coz those are one axis only.
i agree on this rig but I happen to have my own DIY Gseat setup combined with a moving rig. While you dont feel the forces on your face the rest can be very convincing. Most i've dont is 4.5g in a Aerobatic glider for comparison. Depending on how i set up up i have to strain my upper body to resist the pull/pressure on my chest at high G loads. 9g can hurt. I use flaps and belts to achieve this. 100% real no but as close as you are going to get.
120,000 Euros for that? Damn, why don't you just get the real thing for that kind of money? You're not going to get a champion F1 ride but you'll be pretty good.
@@JeffMcKnight_ I didn't say it even had to be an F1 car. You get a car that's close. Look at the GT cars for instance. They're budgeted about 250K-400K, 50K for the engine. There's definitely a possibility to build something to buy anything between a go kart and a F1 car. I just looked up on Google. A year old Formula 3 car goes for $110,000 bucks.
@@JeffMcKnight_ Truthfully the only reason F1 cars are that expensive is because they have go through many iterations and they have a ton of top level parts but really you can build a replica for a lot less.
Interesting, but you don't just feel g forces in your body, you feel it in your ear. I think the systems that simulate forces by tilting the whole rig in the opposite direction of the force are better.
Those are actual g forces but the problem is that they're limited to 1G, and that's assuming the rig can tilt 90° in each direction and no rig does that
@@v0ldy54 Yes, it is limited to about 0.5G, still better than inflatable airbags. The most important part of simulation is weight transfer, and going from -0.5 to 0.5G is more than enough to simulate the feeling.
Looks achievable for quite a bit less than 20k without the chassis (GS-5, G-Belt, D-Box, SC2 Pro, HE Ultimates etc.). I just need the coin kiddie-car motion to catch up.
When you say it's (just another) £120,000 Formula rig it's trivial. But when a guy explained they have a continuous G-forces simulation system my interest immediately went from 5/10 to 100/10 You should actually put this information on the thumbnail or the title! That thing's MINDBLOWING
cloest thing i got to that kinda experiance of a sim race set up that moves as you race was this arcade place called Vrace but that still is nothing compaired to what you were just sat in
03:50 I'm sorry to say, but that's not how it works. Motion sim rigs work by TILTING, not moving from side to side, to give the g force feeling. The ones that move side to side just shake you for "bump" or crashes feelings. The g forces comes from tilting side to side and also front to back when you accelerate and brake. And the notion of a long curve g force comes because the rig keeps tilted until you are no longer turning.
Very interesting system! If they sold just the seat and seatbelts with airbags and valves to home users, it should be possible to get the price to much lower numbers. Cheapest full motion platforms such as DOFReality H6 cost about $5000 so combining this kind of airbag system with that should be possible under 10K and the end result should be much better than many more expensive systems.
You can build a Gseat for 500 euro if you want with viper motors. For racing, pnemantic isnt the best cause its a bit slow anyways. But you can use actuators like the SFX to drive pistons or any other motors and pay 1000-2000 euro for a full G seat
@Trigenetic I'm going by experience, considering I actually hand built the sim in this video myself. The technology itself cannot be simulated by motors alone. The sim itself (in a previous guise) originally used another system to complement the G seat, in that the seat moved independently of the rest of the chassis to further give the sensation of rise and fall when, for example, going over a crest. This proved far too complicated and costly for the perceived net benefit and was scrapped going forward. This system is still however utilised in the "big boy sim" shown later on in this video with the wrap around screen.
@@yyy-875 I dont think they use gyroscopic gymbals. From what I can find they still use the cabin on legs to simulate motion. Please proof me wrong and send me a pic of one. Would really love to see it. I have been designing one for years but cannot find a couple of solutions of problems to get it to work properly. I am not an engineer of any kind so the designing is just for fun.
I wonder how much latency there is on those airbags vs a full motion rig. I have to imagine the hydraulic motion would be a lot more responsive than inflsting and deflating airbags. Interesting to see a different approach to motion simulation :)
thats wild, i never thought about simulating sustained g force by just applying pressure to one side of your body. i always thought of (short of artificial gravity turned sideways) tilting the driver and using earths gravity. also WHY NO VR!? if youre going for immersion, then youre losing MOST of it sticking with 2d.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
When Formula one is too extensive so you buy a £120000 setup
well thats like 1 season in karting so i guesssssssssss its a better investment? idk man motorsport is stupid 😥
To be fair, it's leagues cheaper than real F1 😆
Actually, if you ever thought F1 was plausible... this makes sense.
It’s cheaper than just a praga race car, let alone any race season in even a low formula series
With £120000 you can get half a front wing for an F1 car...
Im going to buy a sim rig like that only for the feeling of being hugged.
Worth it.
I'll hug you for 120k 😂
😢 I’ll hug you for free
@@deaganblough1961 Don't try and undercut me, I know what I'm worth
Deep
Fun Fact: Anyone living in London can swing by the Samsung store in Kings Cross to try one of these for free! I've gone on it numerous times and it's an absolute blast.
I don't get why these sort of set-ups so rarely use VR. It would 100% be the way to go
Vr is Def horrible for your eyes. That's the main reason.
@@raramcgee4982 No it isn't?
@@raramcgee4982 no it isn't, no more than a LCD monitor a 80cm from your eyes
They are the professionals choosing not to use VR, you'd imagine they know what they are doing and the avg Joe saying "it's the way to go" don't...
I'd imagine it's because you can't see the wheel you are using. You can't see your fingers on the buttons. It helps make it feel more real when you know it isn't just in the headset.
jimmy upgrading to carbon fibre nails is incredible
That's such a cool way to simulate G forces, I never even considered that airbags could do that!
I like the nails by the way, I think it looks good on you
💀💀💀 cant take this guy serious anymore
@@R9naldo what?
@@yoavmend1909 no one will take you serious if you paint your nails, its good that its black and not a goofy color but your internet buddies wont be d-riding you in the real world. A man painting his nails gives off a very strange image for most people and you will get teased
@@R9naldo I know multiple people who paint their nails they get taken seriously maybe you are just wierd?
@@yoavmend1909 obviously your friends will take eachother seriously but turning up into a job interview looking like that will get you rejected. Plus you'll get clowned
Yes Jimmy. We'd love to see you do a video in the main sim rig.
I was lucky enough to give the rig @3:05 a whirl last year, whilst at Cranfield on a work visit. Only a couple of laps but an awesome experience but absolute sensory overload for a bedroom dweller like myself. Brilliant bit of kit though!
Yes do more Jimmer! Also I love how tiny and cute you are not reaching the pedals. You really look the part! :D
i love how its basically just AC. no fancy bespoke software, just an 8 year old racing game. says a lot about ac.
It's highly moddable, the other sims aren't. It doesn't matter how much better the other sims are if the user isn't allowed to f**k about with the internals. AC is the sim of choice for this sort of stuff.
I thought I was big time when I spent £340 😂
Funny thing is that you can build your own two flap Gseat with viper motors for that price ;)
Great video Jimmy! Axsim are a great team, had a chat with them a few times. incredibly knowledgeable and innovative.
I love the fact that it’s still just AC! Best sim out there 😉
I never understand why all high end (iow expensive) cockpits always manage to mess up one or more fundamental parts. In this case the screen, not only is there just the one big screen but it's also a mile away from you. I don't care how good the rest of it is I would really struggle to drive with it
I think this is more for demo purposes, but I agree. Wrap around or VR would be better
@@Jimmy_Broadbent another comment made a good point, with vr you cant see the wheel and your fingers doing stuff. If you can afford one of these you can afford to dedicate a room or garage and have a massive wrap around screen
“J to the i to the dubble m, y” 😂 brilliant!
Cool bit of kit. Always fascinated by simulation systems like this, so good to include the chat from the product manager.
Jimmy confirmed for a F2 seat?
Hope so
I hope he gets a chance to race at LeMans, maybe in an LMP3 car.
@@kilianortmann9979 lmp 3 isn't in le mans
@@yoavmend1909 that’s IMSA
@@yoavmend1909 Well that's confusing. So his best bet would be Le Mans GTE Am?
I would LOVE to see you you back there!! You could do a live stream or put up a whole unedited (or lightly edited) long form video! Please do it for my birthday! I'll be 40 in March but that sim rig makes me feel 12. :)
0:03 So the joy only lasted for one video. Back to reality. 😄
Jimmy should get one along with a fancy new shed for it
9:26 It's champagne.
Good luck fitting it in the shed.
Definately do more. Except maybe for the J to the I to the double M Y. Maybe not that. But the sim rig, would love more of that!
"J to the I, to the double M Y"
His name is Jimmy, but you can call him Jim
He plays a bunch of arcade sims
He started his a career in a shed
Got a lot of use from that tiny bed (wink, wink)
Then one day he saw the light
He became a real race driver and to his delight
Praga hit Jimmy with a contract, he could not refuse (sort of)
He got in the car, you can smell the fumes, he rounded
every corner, he shouted "OH GOD" as he drove passed you!
His name is Jimmy... "J to the I, to the double M Y".
Cheap wheel is good enough to tell what’s going on with car so this must be really good. I’ve also driven without sound that was a bit challenging lol good work mate
Surprised they haven't added a way for the helmet to pushed by a ram or pulled by a wire. The neck strain seems like one of the hardest things to deal with when you are learning to drive a F1 car.
Since it involves the head and neck, it would most likely be quite expensive to make sure it's completely safe.
@@jerrywang592 Oh yeah I guess so, oops we accidentally ramped up the force feedback on the helmet and broke the test drivers neck, could be a tough one for the insurance. I think they would be able to do it safely if they put some thought into it though, I mean they don't need full extension as far as a neck can go, even a few centimeters of travel would give the sensation and something push against.
@@jerrywang592 not that hard actually
It would be great to see you in the big boi sim. The Home version is now on my pretending to win the lottery list.
love the nails
Convincing my non-existent significant other won't be a problem.
Convincing my employer to give me £120,000 might be harder 😂
This would be a good training tool for formula drivers, is there a version with triple screens or projectors?
Yes, at the end of the video…
Jimmy is getting in F2 for sure!
Maybe not f2 but some kind of open wheeler
He has the talent and intellicents for it. Not sure what his age is. F2 has a age limit. I would to see him in GT3 or LMP car racing.
He’s too old to really be an F2 junior in current year but he’s def doing some open wheel racing at some point
There is no age limit in f2 for as far as I know
An owner is going to see those nails, and say...hard pass.
Absolutely mad, what a piece of kit
I feel like if the steering wheel moved it would give a sensation of G-Force too, say the wheel pushes out from the car when braking, so you have to lay your weight into it to keep it from coming forwards, and it moves into the car when accelerating so it gives that feeling of you having to pull yourself towards it
The Cronch of the belts tightening or "the bear hug, as Jimmer called it is satisfying lmao.
Nails are back, very fancy :)
0:10 new sub alert 🤣
This is amazing. I would pay like 100 bucks to play for a hour on this
You look so happy and I'm 100% here for it
Would be interesting to have a consumer version of this. Like a small compressor and just the seatbelts so you can put it on any seat basically. The compressor could turn on during gear changes to get that sound like in a real car.
Oh my god they made my dream a reality, i always wanted to make those things when i have enough money
Liking your good taste in MSR soundtrack, Jimmy!
I just wanted to go out there and say this, but loving the nails too :)
when cranfield first started developing the sims ,, me and a co worker had the pleasure of fitting the aircon into he new rooms inside the hanger there ,,,,,,,,,, great guys to work for they had a second hand shell and was in early stages but it was so realistic at the time then one driver used to hold onto the side as he was going round a corner same as in the real car
Thanks Jimmer for the plug ❤️
yeah, the f1 sim is cool and all, but i'm more interested in THAT(2:40) shifter, it feels good both in h patter and sequential modes? for the few frame i see here it looks like it uses a very similar mechanism to the prosim one, very interesting, i'm curious how they achieve a sequential mode too with that design
That Shifter is the prototype for our new dual mode H-SQ. We'll be releasing some more info very soon.
Yeah I had a go with it during the day, it was awesome! Nicknamed the bazooka haha
@@BDHRaceSimHardware cant wait to know more :D
@@Mkm0ka Hopefully by the end of this month we'll be posting a preview.
ok boys we need to get jimmy one of these somebody start a fund raiser for a definitely totally important cause.
Definitely need to have a go in the big boy sim!!!
They should sponsor you and make you an ambassador. Who better than a person that started on sims, graduated to actual racing, and finished on the podium.
Awesome sim rig!
I don’t think this set up can simulating enough ‘G force’. It’s just simulated some little motions.
Even when I fly level D full flight simulator built for an airline pilot training with six 10 feet long’s hydraulic actuators under me, those sims can still only simulate partial G especially when we do an ‘unusual attitude’ sessions (high nose, low nose, steep banking). And those level D sims costs tens of millions of dollars each.
I saw one sim that can simulate some real(but still not 100%) G forces for a space shuttle. But that thing ran full height inside a 10+ stories buildings!
Btw, we’re not talking about a centrifuge that’s use for a fighter pilot G LOC training coz those are one axis only.
i agree on this rig but I happen to have my own DIY Gseat setup combined with a moving rig. While you dont feel the forces on your face the rest can be very convincing. Most i've dont is 4.5g in a Aerobatic glider for comparison. Depending on how i set up up i have to strain my upper body to resist the pull/pressure on my chest at high G loads. 9g can hurt. I use flaps and belts to achieve this. 100% real no but as close as you are going to get.
120,000 Euros for that? Damn, why don't you just get the real thing for that kind of money? You're not going to get a champion F1 ride but you'll be pretty good.
The real thing being an F1 car that is going to be 100 times more expensive than the rig ? Sure, same kind of money
@@JeffMcKnight_ I didn't say it even had to be an F1 car. You get a car that's close. Look at the GT cars for instance. They're budgeted about 250K-400K, 50K for the engine. There's definitely a possibility to build something to buy anything between a go kart and a F1 car. I just looked up on Google. A year old Formula 3 car goes for $110,000 bucks.
@@JeffMcKnight_ Truthfully the only reason F1 cars are that expensive is because they have go through many iterations and they have a ton of top level parts but really you can build a replica for a lot less.
Axim need to team up with Vesaro to make the Ultimate Full F1 Car Sim
That's my Christmas list sorted for this year.
check out the $1600 Yaw 2 chair that was released recently.. seems like an interesting setup!
So damn cool. If I ever win the lottery I’m getting one of these
6 figure setup running on AC 😂
Interesting, but you don't just feel g forces in your body, you feel it in your ear. I think the systems that simulate forces by tilting the whole rig in the opposite direction of the force are better.
Exactly.
Those are actual g forces but the problem is that they're limited to 1G, and that's assuming the rig can tilt 90° in each direction and no rig does that
@@v0ldy54 Yes, it is limited to about 0.5G, still better than inflatable airbags. The most important part of simulation is weight transfer, and going from -0.5 to 0.5G is more than enough to simulate the feeling.
@@mummifiedgamer Magic happens when you combine the two. I have a full DIY G seat and SFX 200mm sim at home.
Imagine playing in this with a VR headset, also is this what F1 teams use for practice in the sim?
120K for a 15 degree FOV. Why?
Cool, now I'm gonna sell my rig to get one of those.
I mean, the Vans hoodie.
One thing I would have asked Axsim... why use air instead of say a more traditional seatbelt tensioner for these effects?
That is incredible lol
I h onestly hope to see you in real Formula racing that would be wicked sick
Nice! I’ve been looking for a rocket league rig!
Jimmer in the Axsim F1 car for the win
Looks achievable for quite a bit less than 20k without the chassis (GS-5, G-Belt, D-Box, SC2 Pro, HE Ultimates etc.). I just need the coin kiddie-car motion to catch up.
Assetto Corsa 🙌
120k for a bunch of airbags?.. Man this hobby has really the most insane prices for stuff you can DIY for 1/10 of the price most of the time
When you say it's (just another) £120,000 Formula rig it's trivial. But when a guy explained they have a continuous G-forces simulation system my interest immediately went from 5/10 to 100/10
You should actually put this information on the thumbnail or the title! That thing's MINDBLOWING
OMFG thats amazing 😳
cloest thing i got to that kinda experiance of a sim race set up that moves as you race was this arcade place called Vrace but that still is nothing compaired to what you were just sat in
Came back to see if it's Jimmys watch in the praga twitter post, it is
boosted-media needs to up his rig now 😅
Bro he has I’d maxed out in every possible way😂
They have a way better rig.
@@driesheylen27 AFAIK he dont have a G seat. You can buy one for 25k or so (GS-5) or build one for much less
03:50 I'm sorry to say, but that's not how it works. Motion sim rigs work by TILTING, not moving from side to side, to give the g force feeling. The ones that move side to side just shake you for "bump" or crashes feelings. The g forces comes from tilting side to side and also front to back when you accelerate and brake. And the notion of a long curve g force comes because the rig keeps tilted until you are no longer turning.
I had to scroll through the somments if somebody has already pointed that out. Thank you!
The guy with long hair seems to be the developer and hadn’t sleep for years .
That's neat, but for that money i could buy a house. Not a good one, but a house
this needs a fan in front to simulate wind
YOOOOOOOO nails Jimmer is back? Fucking love it you do you Jimmer! Missed ya bud
John from Axsim is definitely not part of major shady government contracts, stop asking.
I had never noticed the nails!
Very interesting system! If they sold just the seat and seatbelts with airbags and valves to home users, it should be possible to get the price to much lower numbers. Cheapest full motion platforms such as DOFReality H6 cost about $5000 so combining this kind of airbag system with that should be possible under 10K and the end result should be much better than many more expensive systems.
Not possible, the pneumatics system alone is 10k.
You can build a Gseat for 500 euro if you want with viper motors. For racing, pnemantic isnt the best cause its a bit slow anyways. But you can use actuators like the SFX to drive pistons or any other motors and pay 1000-2000 euro for a full G seat
@Trigenetic I'm going by experience, considering I actually hand built the sim in this video myself.
The technology itself cannot be simulated by motors alone. The sim itself (in a previous guise) originally used another system to complement the G seat, in that the seat moved independently of the rest of the chassis to further give the sensation of rise and fall when, for example, going over a crest. This proved far too complicated and costly for the perceived net benefit and was scrapped going forward. This system is still however utilised in the "big boy sim" shown later on in this video with the wrap around screen.
@@Trigenetic pnemantic can be very fast if you use high enough pressures. That's not safe to do with low quality stuff, though.
Best solution still is to put the sim seat and monitor in a gyroscope imo.
@@yyy-875 I dont think they use gyroscopic gymbals. From what I can find they still use the cabin on legs to simulate motion. Please proof me wrong and send me a pic of one. Would really love to see it. I have been designing one for years but cannot find a couple of solutions of problems to get it to work properly. I am not an engineer of any kind so the designing is just for fun.
Definitely wangle your way back to try out their big boy machine.
Hopefully there will be a DIY g-pressure-force like this very soon
There is. SimExperience has their G-Seat that uses motorized paddles, and Frex has an airbag kit to simulate G-forces.
@@johnathanmoyer2375 woah, thanks a lot! gotta check it
You gotta do the big one, mate.
I wonder how much latency there is on those airbags vs a full motion rig. I have to imagine the hydraulic motion would be a lot more responsive than inflsting and deflating airbags.
Interesting to see a different approach to motion simulation :)
Need some mechanism that push your neck forward when braking lol
Its fine. I feel motion is better. Added with motion is ideal. The aesthetics are dope though but thats got to be most of the cost?
thats wild, i never thought about simulating sustained g force by just applying pressure to one side of your body. i always thought of (short of artificial gravity turned sideways) tilting the driver and using earths gravity. also WHY NO VR!? if youre going for immersion, then youre losing MOST of it sticking with 2d.
Pink top and bloody nailvarnish....Turning into Lewis Hamilton🤣
“Ive never thought I’d be working with MEN that paint their nails.”💀
Yeah man, they should let you do a lap around the place I can’t spell. Green Hell
Nüerbhroughrrinnhg
The Nürburgring Nordschleife
@@truehunger108 indeed. Thank you.
The dance of champions, From the 90s.
Looks like you hit every finger with a hammer 🛠 🤣
you feel like rockstar ,lipstick - next.
Love the nail polish :) cool rig too
@7:43 guy in the background "are you f. kidding me?"
Both my parents worked on this before it was branded Axsim!
I want to see the last(experimental?) version of the sim in use.
Assetto Corsa!! So glad I moved to PC
Nails still looking great! matches the race suit as well
Put that in a wind tunnel and it’ll be basically the same