Bach Brandenburg Concerto No.5 - Gould - Mishakoff - Tipton - Detroit Symphony - Paray - 1960

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  • Опубликовано: 28 окт 2024

Комментарии • 140

  • @MrGer2295
    @MrGer2295 13 лет назад +18

    GLENN HERBERT GOULD (September 25, 1932 - October 4, 1982) was a Canadian pianist who became one of the best-known and most celebrated classical pianists of the 20th century. He was particularly renowned as an interpreter of the keyboard music of Johann Sebastian Bach. His playing was distinguished by remarkable technical proficiency and capacity to articulate the polyphonic texture of Bach’s music.
    Molto Bello!!! Thank you for sharing this video.

    • @anahitalboyajyan3703
      @anahitalboyajyan3703 2 года назад

      🎼🎹🎶🎵👏👏👏🌹

    • @janetroy5489
      @janetroy5489 2 года назад +3

      Glenn Gould died in 1982, and hundreds of people discover him every year (of how many pianists can that be said?). He made 80 records and did radio and tv. We are blessed. Also blessed that he loved Bach.

  • @Karlcarl
    @Karlcarl 12 лет назад +18

    How wonderful to hear my teacher, Mischakoff performing with Glen Gould. Thanks for putting this radio program up on RUclips.

  • @hnkahl
    @hnkahl 8 лет назад +53

    Glenn Gould was a unique talent and an indisputable genius of the piano, idiosyncrasies notwithstanding. You have to love this guy. The singing, the conducting, and all of it, that's just Glenn. Would his recordings be better without the singing? I don't know. Maybe the singing helped make his playing sing, maybe it helped him concentrate. Imagine it's you humming along to the music as you listen. I've never understood this shallow criticism of Gould. If your concentration and listening skill is up to the task of understanding the complex nature of Bach's music, certainly you would be able to filter out his occasion vocalizing, which if you do will reveal the incredible playing that is there. He is like no one else. He brings to each piece such a thorough and profound understanding on a theoretical and stylistic level that is never scholarly or pedantic sounding. Everything is clear and precise but never mechanical. We are so fortunate to have an audible record of this one of a kind artist.

    • @dthomases1
      @dthomases1 6 лет назад +11

      About the singing: he did it his entire life as films showing him practicing at home when he was still a young man convincingly demonstrate, his mother apparently taught him to do so in his first early years. Whether it helped him to play better is anyone's guess and an irresolvable question at this point, so why worry about it? Another rather distignuished musician who sang as well during his performances was Arturo Toscanini so it can hardly be labelled a defect.

    • @justinpino8115
      @justinpino8115 5 лет назад +7

      One of best comments about Gould ever and I've read a lot. Well put

    • @alvarocid7631
      @alvarocid7631 5 лет назад +5

      Full of life, electric life, wonderful life, always.

    • @perttirasilainen1142
      @perttirasilainen1142 4 года назад

      Dearest hnkahl, Your writing is very beautiful and right in every respect. This modern world in which we, or many of us, is living now in 2020 and that in Glenn's time - is / was that kind of a place which doesn't allow exceptions. It likes and is somehow based to standards; everything has to be the same like the food & quality in McDonalds. If someone puts everything for that which is his / hers passion, not profession, so that is too much for most of people. And most of people don't even recognize quality; which is good, which is bad. They just follow different kind of guides or 'advices' from so called 'specialists' who tends to have some sort of authority over different things. Like trendsetters.
      I could say that it is very important to be able to make a difference between theatre and something which is Original. There are many tennis-players who play theatre with their sounds, and there are many pianists who make theatre with their gestures and mimes - like french Helene Grimaud. We all have different taste but those mimes Helene makes suits better for porn-movies and has nothing to do with playing the piano or interpreting music.
      From Finland with Love, Pertti Rasilainen.

    • @perttirasilainen1142
      @perttirasilainen1142 4 года назад +1

      @@dthomases1
      Daniel, actually it wasn't so. But there is connection to Glenn's mother: she asked Glenn why he doesn't sing, Glenn started - and could not stop 👍

  • @pgifford
    @pgifford 9 лет назад +29

    I remember my parents hearing Gould play with the Detroit Symphony about that time and raving about him. My father was a substitute flutist with the DSO then and a friend of Tipton.

  • @francescaemc2
    @francescaemc2 2 года назад +4

    ne plus ultra. Grazie infinite di nuovo.

  • @laurencecaldecote
    @laurencecaldecote 12 лет назад +17

    A super recording - so clear and with such expression - a joy to listen to over and again

  • @MrGer2295
    @MrGer2295 13 лет назад +6

    MISCHA MISCHAKOFF (born in Proskurov, Ukraine, on April 16, 1895,[1] as Mischa Fischberg, died February 1981[1] in Petoskey, MI) was an outstanding violinist and concertmaster for 70 years, from the age of ten until the age of eighty.
    Molto Bello!!! Thank you for sharing this video.

  • @francescaemc2
    @francescaemc2 Год назад +3

    cannot stop listening to this.

  • @MrGer2295
    @MrGer2295 13 лет назад +8

    In 1921, he escaped from Russia with, among others, his friend and colleague, cellist Gregor Piatigorsky, with whom he had played in the Bolshoi Theater. Mischakoff emigrated to the United States later that year, becoming a naturalized citizen in 1927.
    Molto Bello!!! Thank you for sharing this video.

  • @56wenzel
    @56wenzel 11 лет назад +8

    really unbelievable,incredible,to cry of joy...

  • @francescaemc2
    @francescaemc2 3 месяца назад +2

    I am addicted to this performance.

  • @SuperMariamalia
    @SuperMariamalia 10 лет назад +13

    An historical document!! thanks for posting!!!

  • @MrGer2295
    @MrGer2295 13 лет назад +4

    ALBERT TIPTON (1917-1997) was an American flutist, pianist and conductor. In 1966, Time placed Albert Tipton amongst the "30 first-rate flutists" in the United States and Europe. He studied with William Kincaid at the Curtis Institute of Music in Philadelphia. He served as principal flutist with the National Symphony Orchestra from 1937 to 1939 and toured with Leopold Stokowski as a soloist with the All American Youth Orchestra in 1939.
    Molto Bello!!! Thank you for sharing this video.

  • @71lupenzo710
    @71lupenzo710 3 года назад +9

    8:23 start "grande cadenza"❤️

  • @francescaemc2
    @francescaemc2 5 лет назад +5

    grazie di nuovo. formidabile

  • @hnkahl
    @hnkahl 8 лет назад +23

    I love the episode at 4:44-6:03 with all its ingenious sequential repetitions building to a return of the opening theme. This is heavenly writing that makes one feel as if suspended in space and it is of course beautifully played. Mischakoff sounds a bit heavy here but I think it is the fault of the mic placement, which is too close for my taste and gives it more of a studio feel rather than the more spacious sound of a concert hall. That being said, what a great find. As a longtime fan of Gould, the DSO, Paray, and Mischakoff, I say thanks for posting this.

  • @MrJDWillard
    @MrJDWillard 10 лет назад +14

    Gould playing with the Detroit Symphony (1960) -it's a pleasure to hear my mentor Mischa Mishakoff in this

    • @nidurnevets
      @nidurnevets 10 лет назад

      My father,Leon Rudin, who was a violinist with the NY Philharmonic worked with Mishakoff for four summers, in the 1950s at Chautauqua NY. My father was assistant concertmaster of the orchestra.

    • @sanjosemike
      @sanjosemike 9 лет назад +1

      nidurnevets Mr. Rudin, did your father ever play in the Philadelphia Orchestra? I have a feeling that I met him several times, through one of his cousins and a dear friend, Neil. The Philadelphia Orchestra came to Detroit frequently during those years. I remember talking with Mr. Rudin about Hindemith, whom he met several times when the composer was conducting one of his works. I don't mean to intrude, but I had to ask...
      sanjosemike

    • @nidurnevets
      @nidurnevets 9 лет назад

      Sanjosemike, As far as I know, he didn't ever play with them. He was hired for the Philharmonic in 1946, and retired in 1979. He was also a pianist, who subbed for the orchestra pianist, from time to time. He did a lot of accompanying of other members of the orchestra, including Stanley Drucker. I know that he admired Hindemith's music, and once performed a very difficult violin concerto by Hindemtih, at, I believe, Town Hall, in NY back in the 1950s. It don't know the name of the work. Was there a Neil Rudin in the Philidelphia? I'm sure there are a lot of relatives I don't know of on his side of the family, and it would be so interesting if he had a cousin named Neil Rudin, who was also a violinist. Thanks for contacting me. Steve Rudin

  • @CaptainBluebear08
    @CaptainBluebear08 13 лет назад +5

    Grandioso. E anche una tale registrazione rara.
    Grazie mille, "Gutmensch".

  • @samanthabeduschi1
    @samanthabeduschi1 12 лет назад +9

    Amazing! Thank you for sharing! I love Bach, as well as such beautiful performances as that you have given us...

  • @christofferlunoe1305
    @christofferlunoe1305 4 года назад +5

    So true and well put,...It’s in a way really simple..Gould magnificent musical and mathematic brain just couldn’t resist the overwhelming and massive impression the music filled his genius modus expressionismus .
    Fats Waller did the same and in that sense they are totally equal.
    It’s just such a wonderful and personal dedication to the love of music and mastering the instrument which creates it !

  • @liberjimenez3748
    @liberjimenez3748 7 лет назад +10

    Thank you for posting an historical performance !

  • @francescaemc2
    @francescaemc2 6 лет назад +7

    Grazie ancora

  • @HeavyProfessor
    @HeavyProfessor 11 лет назад +12

    He's the only one I've heard that makes the keyboard solo sound good on piano.

  • @КлиоКлио-н7к
    @КлиоКлио-н7к 3 года назад +6

    Спасибо огромное и низкий поклон из России! Гленн Гульд всегда в моем сердце!

    • @alexoidbushuyevich8818
      @alexoidbushuyevich8818 2 года назад

      Позвольте присоединиться к вам. Проживаю в Республике Казахстан 🇰🇿

  • @MrGer2295
    @MrGer2295 13 лет назад +3

    He also led the Mischakoff String Quartet in the various cities where he lived and taught at the Juilliard School in New York between 1940 and 1952. One of his notable pupils was Canadian violinist Albert Pratz.
    Molto Bello!!! Thank you for sharing this video.

  • @francescaemc2
    @francescaemc2 6 лет назад +7

    Grazie di nuovo

  • @francescaemc2
    @francescaemc2 3 года назад +3

    Grazie di cuore

  • @francescaemc2
    @francescaemc2 2 года назад +4

    grazie infinite

  • @MrGer2295
    @MrGer2295 13 лет назад +2

    He led the string sections of the St. Petersburg Conservatory Orchestra, St. Petersburg Philharmonic Orchestra, Bolshoi Theater, Warsaw Philharmonic Orchestra, New York Symphony, Philadelphia Orchestra, Chicago Symphony Orchestra, NBC Symphony Orchestra, Chautauqua Symphony Orchestra, Detroit Symphony Orchestra, and, in retirement, the Baltimore Orchestra and Scandinavian Symphony Orchestra of Detroit - William Savola (Conductor) in Southfield, Michigan.
    Molto Bello!!! Thank you for sharing.

  • @gastonvandenbroeck3950
    @gastonvandenbroeck3950 10 лет назад +6

    Il n'y a pas à dire. C'est génial. Dommage que l' interprète n'a pas pu poursuivre plus longtemps sa carrière musicale. Quelles merveilles musicales aurait-il encore pu et su produire!

  • @elwaybevin2898
    @elwaybevin2898 9 лет назад +10

    Absolutely gorgeous - on every level (amazingly good sound quality). Thanks for posting!

  • @francescaemc2
    @francescaemc2 6 лет назад +6

    GRAZIE!!!!!!!!!

  • @KyotoMelody
    @KyotoMelody 13 лет назад +5

    Thank you so much for sharing this!

  • @delilah6131
    @delilah6131 13 лет назад +4

    perfection!!!!!! thank you for posting

  • @francescaemc2
    @francescaemc2 3 года назад +3

    grazie di nuovo

  • @francescaemc2
    @francescaemc2 5 лет назад +6

    grazie

  • @canman5060
    @canman5060 8 лет назад +5

    Glenn Gould is as old as my father. If he is still alive he will be 84 years old.

  • @solonka123
    @solonka123 13 лет назад +2

    Thank you verty much. I didn't even know this recording existed. I admire Paul Paray very much as well.

  • @eleneokruashvili7967
    @eleneokruashvili7967 9 лет назад +8

    ill be performing this at the end of may :)

  • @phoebelinden9602
    @phoebelinden9602 4 месяца назад +1

    Timeless performance.

  • @francescaemc2
    @francescaemc2 6 лет назад +5

    grazie ancora

  • @MrGer2295
    @MrGer2295 13 лет назад +2

    In addition to orchestral playing, Albert Tipton played in and led the Tipton Chamber Orchestra and the Tipton Trio. He concertized regularly with his wife, pianist, Mary Norris.
    Molto Bello!!! Thank you for sharing this video.

  • @jmaupin34
    @jmaupin34 4 года назад +2

    Gould humming during the cadenza 🥰🥰🥰😭😭😭

  • @angelocompagnin6317
    @angelocompagnin6317 7 лет назад +10

    Bellissima interpretazione.

  • @angelocompagnin6317
    @angelocompagnin6317 7 лет назад +7

    meraviglioso!

  • @goodmanmusica
    @goodmanmusica  13 лет назад +2

    @solonka123
    the conductor in the photo is Paray.

  • @jacquesvall5894
    @jacquesvall5894 10 лет назад +16

    Réponse à Pierre Clouthier
    When the wise man points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger.

    • @jazztemple2
      @jazztemple2 7 лет назад

      Great expression, Jacques! Is it a common French adage?

  • @MrGer2295
    @MrGer2295 13 лет назад

    He became second flutist with the Philadelphia Orchestra in 1940 and left that position in 1946 to become the principal flutist of the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra (1946-1956). He was in Detroit from 1956-1968, where he played principal flute in the Detroit Symphony Orchestra. In 1968 he accepted a position at Florida State University as Professor of Flute. He later moved to Rice University in Houston, Texas serving as Professor of Flute from 1975 to 1990.
    Molto Bello!!! Thank you for sharing,

  • @MrGer2295
    @MrGer2295 13 лет назад +1

    PAUL PARAY Paray (born Le Tréport, 24 May 1886 - died Monte Carlo, 10 October 1979) was a French conductor, organist and composer. He is best remembered in the United States for being the resident conductor of the Detroit Symphony Orchestra for more than a decade.[1] He married Yolande Falck on 25 August 1944.

  • @user-os1wj1hi5b
    @user-os1wj1hi5b Год назад +3

    1st 1:37 2nd 11:40 3rd 17:29

  • @fanbladeinstruments
    @fanbladeinstruments 6 лет назад +10

    I have always felt the the timbre of the harpsichord had quite a jarring effect on the listner, particularly during the louder passages where any trace of melody can be reduced to a jangeling percussive mess. This is the first time I've heard this piece played on piano and it's infinitely more welcome in my ears than any harpsichord version.

  • @jorgeurzuaurzua4011
    @jorgeurzuaurzua4011 5 лет назад +1

    Nice recording. Better equilibrium among the three soloists than in other versions of the BWV1050 by Gould, where the piano dominates in excess. The flavor of this recording is closer to the baroque original writing by Bach. Thanks for uploading.

  • @MastaDamascus
    @MastaDamascus 8 лет назад +8

    13:52 Phrase is so beautiful I could cry.

  • @MrGer2295
    @MrGer2295 13 лет назад

    At the conclusion of the Sibelius 2nd Symphony and in recognition of their professional collaboration, Mischa Mischakoff and his wife Hortense honored Conductor Savola by presenting to him a baton once used by Arturo Toscanini. The baton was last held in the hand of Toscanini.
    Molto Bello!!! Thank you for sharing this video.

  • @jeanlepetit7823
    @jeanlepetit7823 11 лет назад +1

    Trank you for Sharing

  • @市田武彦
    @市田武彦 7 лет назад +4

    なんて素晴らしい演奏なんだ!

  • @gaborkovacs
    @gaborkovacs 9 лет назад +12

    BEST SOLO OF THE WHOLE UNIVERSE!

    • @francescaemc2
      @francescaemc2 5 лет назад +4

      you are correct!!!!!

    • @francescaemc2
      @francescaemc2 5 лет назад +3

      check out Dinu Lipatti's candenza in Mozart's concerto 21... if you like this sort of thing ;)

    • @JohannaCTjia
      @JohannaCTjia 3 года назад +2

      Indeed. Solo is amazing

  • @EliezerPennywhistler
    @EliezerPennywhistler 11 лет назад +5

    Some of us are forced to regard the minor humming as more important than the musicality of one of the world's greatest musicians -- those without musical knowledge ... or taste.
    You are your own worst enemy, and I cannot think of a thing to say, except HAHAHA.
    The next time you wander a rose garden, beware the pebbles in the path.
    What a maroon!

  • @rudolphmcneill515
    @rudolphmcneill515 4 года назад +2

    Oh if only there was video.

    • @KKIcons
      @KKIcons 3 месяца назад

      Did you catch the CBC footage of 60's chamber version of the piece? It was from the Glenn Gould On Bach program.

  • @EliezerPennywhistler
    @EliezerPennywhistler 11 лет назад +1

    The introduction begins at 00:00.

  • @micheldvorsky
    @micheldvorsky 11 лет назад +4

    Where did you get this recording from? Thanks for the upload!

  • @passthewhiskey3683
    @passthewhiskey3683 Месяц назад

    A rare Gould error caught on tape at 9:40! The D# and E dissonance.

  • @exorciststairsbrettlyman9066
    @exorciststairsbrettlyman9066 4 года назад +2

    @goodmanmusica thank you so much for posting this. i listen to it every week. do you happen to know which radio station this was a recording for? cbc?

  • @feklaexeshko4974
    @feklaexeshko4974 3 года назад

    Спасибо большое! С любовью из России! 💖

  • @RModillo
    @RModillo 4 месяца назад

    Very fine. One stylistic thing that bothers me-- there was a time when people realized that Bach's dotted rhythms didn't have to be exactly 3:1. This was taken as an injunction to overdot, which these guys all do in the last movement. But another solution is to make the 16th note more of a triplet, so it would mesh with what comes underneath. You can still emphasize each entry without making an artificial hiccup. Oh, well. That was 60 years ago, and tastes change.

  • @milenacontreras8690
    @milenacontreras8690 Год назад

    💓💓💓

  • @westernkentucky5956
    @westernkentucky5956 7 месяцев назад

    Even the great Glenn hits one of the only (THE only?) wrong notes of his life in public at 9:40, and he is so pissed at himself that he speeds up to a bat out of hell speed after 10:00. haha

  • @EliezerPennywhistler
    @EliezerPennywhistler 11 лет назад +1

    Give it to someone who doesn't go so nutso about this minor issue.

  • @BicSC7A
    @BicSC7A 11 лет назад

    I can't believe Gould never played this concerto on the harpsichord! What I would give to hear it...

    • @charlotterose6724
      @charlotterose6724 6 лет назад +4

      A reply 5 years later.... He did play it for a TV program on something called a Harpsi-piano. ("A neurotic piano that thinks it's a harpsicord") If you are still interested, let me know and I can find it and post a link here.

    • @pianosbloxworld4460
      @pianosbloxworld4460 2 года назад

      ruclips.net/video/gvs4v_aswfk/видео.html
      “Is it a harpsichord or a piano performance?”
      “Yes”

  • @75tiable
    @75tiable 5 лет назад

    10:59 is where the alpha melody starts

  • @WinrichNaujoks
    @WinrichNaujoks 4 года назад

    Unexpected notes at 10:04?

  • @marekgorski4789
    @marekgorski4789 11 лет назад

    no! Harpsichord is another world. But orchestra very beautiful, delicate

  • @unvergebeneid
    @unvergebeneid 11 лет назад

    Can you say when? I didn't notice any humming but then I don't know what to listen for.

  • @francescaemc2
    @francescaemc2 4 месяца назад

    ahhhhhhhhhhh

  • @YQ2138
    @YQ2138 4 месяца назад

    ♥️2138♥️GG

  • @googlekopfkind
    @googlekopfkind 12 лет назад

    9:40 did he make a mistake ?

    • @debs4mysweetbaby
      @debs4mysweetbaby 4 года назад +2

      yes! i was shocked at the one note "clinker" there too! lol... i had to "rewind" a few times to check... but it's live music, and he just continued on playing brilliantly without dropping a beat... gould is my hero!

    • @westernkentucky5956
      @westernkentucky5956 7 месяцев назад +1

      Yes, this is pretty well known as one of the only mistakes he made in public. You can tell he's pissed at himself--he speeds way up right after that mis-hit.

  • @jazztemple2
    @jazztemple2 7 лет назад +2

    Is this a cadenza by Bach? By Gould? By.......who?

    • @goodmanmusica
      @goodmanmusica  7 лет назад +1

      jazztemple2 Bach

    • @francescaemc2
      @francescaemc2 5 лет назад +4

      Bach, yes, but Gould put his own music in it. All cadenze are an opportunity for the soloist to improvise.

  • @chakani0001
    @chakani0001 11 лет назад

    Spoke too soon! I believe we can hear Gould's trademark caterwauling.

  • @EliezerPennywhistler
    @EliezerPennywhistler 11 лет назад

    No. It's a glitch in the recording.
    And if it had been, so what?

    • @debs4mysweetbaby
      @debs4mysweetbaby 4 года назад

      it's not a glitch... he hit a wrong note... a shock to all gould lovers in the world!! haha... a reminder that our hero is quite human!! :)

  • @EliezerPennywhistler
    @EliezerPennywhistler 11 лет назад +1

    The pianist is Gould.
    The chair is low.
    The music stands cost $45 each.

  • @felixgaly5573
    @felixgaly5573 10 лет назад +9

    9:40 :O

  • @Tornike2040
    @Tornike2040 9 лет назад +1

    This young pianist :)) now, Gould is dead

  • @camilloflaim8933
    @camilloflaim8933 6 лет назад

    It's true that with the piano we can listen more easy the music writed for cymbal.But J.S.Bach not belived on the piano. I prefer to listen to play the cymbal because more near to the time of J.S.Bach and how listen the
    music those people.

  • @OsoBryanMeBra
    @OsoBryanMeBra 12 лет назад

    seriously ..? your teacher ??'

  • @hazel-rah4997
    @hazel-rah4997 3 года назад +1

    They had exactly one chance to let this sound like music and they missed it completely. It was never a good idea to try to stand your ground when accompanying Gould 😂.

  • @chakani0001
    @chakani0001 11 лет назад

    I guess if one's auditory faculties are impaired, the caterwauling is not egregious.
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Ich denke, wenn man die auditiven Fähigkeiten beeinträchtigt sind, die Katzenmusik nicht ungeheuerlich.

    • @ichirofakename
      @ichirofakename 5 лет назад

      Plenty of other good pianists out there for you to listen to.

  • @paulb2092
    @paulb2092 3 года назад

    Isn't the intro Alex Trebek?

  • @googlekopfkind
    @googlekopfkind 11 лет назад

    so he have made a mistake.

  • @chakani0001
    @chakani0001 11 лет назад +1

    At least the orchestra drowns out his execrable humming.

  • @francescomurano8038
    @francescomurano8038 11 месяцев назад

    suena como una interpretación romántica de la música barroca. No, gracias.

    • @hostlangr
      @hostlangr Месяц назад

      Wurde zensiert! Völlig unverständlich mAn.

  • @RaulLopez-bu8yk
    @RaulLopez-bu8yk 5 лет назад

    Este Concierto no se toca con Piano y la interpretación me parece deplorable

  • @chakani0001
    @chakani0001 11 лет назад

    Gould ruined most of his recordings with his abominable habit of humming (out of tune) while he played. Bach does not need Mr. Gould's "embellishments". I have Gould CDs gathering dust because I can't stand to listen to Gould's maniacal humming.

    • @ichirofakename
      @ichirofakename 5 лет назад +6

      Sell 'em. Won't be hard.

    • @berylcarter5161
      @berylcarter5161 3 года назад +3

      I’d like to purchase them! Please.

    • @matteopagliari
      @matteopagliari 2 года назад

      GG was aware of that but they couldn’t solve the problem… nevertheless it’s hard to say that his recordings have been “ruined” 😉

    • @normangensler7380
      @normangensler7380 Год назад +2

      For some of us familiar with the music, his humming adds a dimension of human presence to accompany his phenomenal musical gifts; so, so much more welcome than the goofs and losers in an audience who save a month's worth of hacking and coughing just for an evening at the symphony. Musical genius such as Gould only happens seldom in a century, if more than once.

  • @opticalmixing23
    @opticalmixing23 4 года назад +1

    Possibly his worst performance

  • @francescaemc2
    @francescaemc2 4 года назад +2

    grazie