Deep Dive: TP-Link Kasa Smart Wi-Fi 3-Way Light Switch on 3-Way & 4-Way Circuits & Your Network
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- Опубликовано: 11 июл 2024
- An in-depth look at the TP-Link Kasa HS210/HS-210 3-Way Light Switch. Do you have to use 2 of them on a 3-way circuit? Can you use 4-way switches for more control points? If you only use one, does it have to be in the "first" (line side) box? Do they do current sensing? What does "pairing" 2 switches actually do? What does a smart switch actually do on and with your home network? And how the heck do 3-way switches even work, anyway? To answer these questions, I tried to make this reasonably comprehensive video.
Thanks to QTTechReview. Check out his 3-Way ( • How to Install a TP-Li... ) and 4-Way ( • How to install a smart... ) Kasa Smart Switch Videos.
TP-Link's official "robo-lady" install tutorial is here: • Kasa Smart Wi-Fi Light...
Thanks Geordie!
00:00:00 Introduction
00:14:53 Garage Install
00:22:32 Continuous Power Edge Case
00:26:10 Mystery Voltage On "Dead" Traveler
00:27:54 Relay State Restoration On Startup
00:31:01 Introduction to the TP-Link Smart Home Protocol
00:33:36 Controlling the Kasa with a PC using Python
00:36:11 More Current Sensing Proof: Switch Knows "Off" from "On"
00:37:54 Setup #2: More Mystery Voltage / Rebooting The Kasa
00:41:45 WiFi Packet Sniffing Kasa With Wireshark
00:44:07 Google Home to Kasa Interaction
00:46:00 Device List vs Detail View Update Speeds
00:50:43 Kasa Switch On The Global Internet: Why & How
00:53:15 Setup #3: Final Experiments
00:55:27 Two Switch Pairing / Pairing's A Crock!
00:58:15 Two Configured Kasa 3-Way Switches
01:01:27 Summary Results & Conclusions
#tplink #kasa 
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Beginning of video: Why is this video 1h8m long?!?!
1h later... what an awesome video!!
Thank you!
great video. amazing enough, I ran into the same issue with another brand 3 way switch from TreatLife before I saw your video. I have used several of these 3 ways without issue using a single smart switch in the line side box. Last Friday installed one in my shop that has 2 x 4 way switches. Installed in the line box and mechanically, it worked fine, but using the app and integrating to home assistant, got similar results that you did.
Removed and installed the same switch in another location on a different circuit and it worked perfectly. However, much shorter run between switches.
to make a long story short, It appears that there might be a voltage being induced through the long travelers in the shop. (similar to the issue you had at your friends). installed a second smart switch at the other end and it worked. After digging into the circuit deeper came to the conclusion that something was causing problems on the travels. I installed a 200K resistor across the travelers at the line side box and was able to use a single smart switch on the line side box. App and home assistant work perfectly.
I have Kasa 3 way switches and will try that as well.
Cheers
Hello Shawn, did you install 200k resistor on both travelers wire? Thank you in advance
sat through the whole thing, THIS is how a tech video should be made. Subscribed.
Learned more in the first 5 minutes than most videos watched the whole way through. Good stuff.
This video was a fantastic summary of how these switches work and why the various forum and community posts are confusing. Many thanks for taking the time and explaining the subject and clarifying the issues. Great job!
First I want to tell you that this was a joy to watch because you took a topic that is complex and made it understandable. You introduced the topic, you allowed us to follow along as you tested the hypothesis and you brought us to a conclusion that was understandable for those of us that our basement techno geeks. It's Thanksgiving Day and I have shared this wonderful casa review with several of my friends because we need to spread education by people who can make this stuff understandable and usable in the real world. My grandmother lived to 102 and before she died we talked about the invention of the automobile, the telephone, the airplane, the electric light etc. I live close to the Tesla factory, I have solar on my roof, and I use a TP Link mesh Network in my home so I can have a private Network to handle my Linux machines, printers, scanners, Smart television, and recently added a czur et24 book scanner to convert all of my documents to searchable PDF. Three-way and four-way light switches were on my mind today as I looked at my home that was built back in 1980 and I wanted to cut the use of electricity and I wanted to have the light switches more efficient. Thank you for being so professional and sharing with the rest of us and what an appropriate day of Thanksgiving to tell you that we should have a thousand or more of you at our colleges and universities and even more in their Junior and senior years of high school.
Thanks for watching and for taking the time to write these kind and thoughtful words, and I'm sending good Thanksgiving wishes back at you from the WardCo Headquarters™ (*cough*) down here in Santa Cruz!
Superb video. I loved the level of exploration you did on this Kasa Device!! As consumers, we usually don't get the full explanation of how something works, the finer details of the details if you will. Thanks for the time you put into this and for sharing it!
I was attempting to a Kasa 3 way a few weeks ago. I gave up and returned the unit. You explained the problem clearly. And made it enjoyable.
Excellent Video. I would not think that someone would do a video so detailed about these things!
Wow, what a great video. Really helps me understand how it works and even helps with the installation.
Now I also know each switch kit can actually be used independently. However, TP-link seems to have changed the design for their dimmer 3-way switch. The dimmer version now has dedicated main switch and satellite switch.
this is the best explanation of these types of switches I've seen to date - excellent job!
Amazing and thorough video. You answered every question I had and questions I had not yet thought of. I enjoyed your process of learning. Excellent video. I particularly enjoyed your consideration of the app maintaining an accurate state and questioning things like the switch being held in the middle. I also enjoyed how you considered what other people might define as a working solution.
Very good video! I was wondering how having two 3-ways worked! This not only solved it, but cleared me to go bunkers adding more 3-ways knowing that only ONE is required! Great engineering!
I'm just now finding your video in August of 2023, just picked up a Kasa 3 way dimmer switch. I did install the original 3 way switch maybe 25+ years ago. Now the house I'm in also has the old knob and tube still in the attic, it's copper cloth coated mixed into the mess this old house is. I remember a much younger me in the basement, before the internet, setting up a piece of 1x with the 2 switches on it and my dead man's cord to figure out how to run this switch, much like you have. Thank you for diving into this switch and explaining the quirks this switch has, such as the "slutty" behavior of the switch and app and how the polling is the exact opposite of what you'd think it'd be.
I also was scratching my head at this switch, but your very in depth analysis of this switch explains just about everything. Now that this switch is a #1 seller on Amazon, I predict this video is going to get much more traffic. Kasa should just link your video honestly, although it may scare some away from buying it, security issues being one. Anyone reading and worried, if you don't have a router with the ability to place all your IOT devices in one spot, a trick is to use your guest network and place all your IOT devices in the guest network and wait for the mesh networks to come down in price. TP-Link has a mesh router called Deco, the x55 is getting cheap for a 3 pack, under 175 on sale and gives you all the fancy features, including a dedicated IOT network leaving your guest network for guests. Also anything Kasa or TP-link can be added or done in the Deco app.
I was looking for your follow up video where you were going to tear it apart and get to the bottom of it. In my search I found some other videos that have me interested, 60 volts on some lines is a good video too.
Thank you so much for such an informative, down to earth video that's palatable for all that have the same questions. I clicked on that big head, and the bell, well done sir. I got into tinkering with the original direct TV TiVos, I see you have some TiVo videos too. I'm looking forward to watch more of your videos as they all seem to be so well done. Again, thank you for sharing everything you found.
This is a great video, and it explains a lot for those of us who have installed Kasa three-way switches. I installed one Kasa in the line side box and it worked fine. The Kasa was also discovered by Home Assistant. The video cleared up two things I noticed,
1. When testing, I used a Klein RT210 outlet tester, instead of a light bulb. When things were switched off, the line LED glowed dimly, when you would have expected it to be off. Now explained by the fact that we do have current on the travelers.
2. The other thing I noticed is that when I controlled the switch via an automation or dashboard (local) , the change was pretty much instant. And when I switched manually the delay was slight. The app was inconsistent. (cloud)
Unfortunately, my switch has failed!
Excellent video. This is the best explanation I’ve seen on the way 3-way/4-way switches work through the traveler wires.
Wow this is exactly the nerdy explanation I've been looking for! Thanks for being so thorough.
Thank you for the amazing detail in this video! I feel much more confident now in trying this setup at home.
As a Controls Engineer(EE), I really enjoyed your video. Keep educating!!!
Thanks for the video! Spent 2 days trying to figure out how to wire 3-way with dead end and a messed up wiring, pretty much gave up, and then saw your video explaining how travellers can be used - got it working in 5 minutes. Thank you!
How did you get a Dead-End working? I've been trying to get it working but these switches need a ground (I'm not using a 4-way, i'm using this in a 3-way configuration. I'm familiar with 3-way wiring but I can't get it working.
Thank you SO MUCH for this video. I was so confused with instructions, but understanding the theory was IMMENSLY helpful.
Really nice deep dive. Answered all my questions and potential questions I could have.
Wow, just wow. I wish Kasa's documentation was anywhere close to 1/5 of this video. Their documentation and even app install manual are superficial at best. My original 3-way only had one traveler, so I had a hard time understanding what changes I needed to do to make it work in my case. In the end, when rewiring I only added a new traveler between the switches and it worked like a charm. Even syncing it to alexa.
I only installed one switch on the load side with a dumb/older switch on the line side and it work exactly like in your example.
Thank you for taking the effort to post this encyclopedia on the Kasa 3-Way HS210 (Adding this here for people like me who had a hard time installing the damn thing).
What drives me crazy is that long delay on the app/ring light, if you press you switch multiple times in a short time span, I assumed it wouldn't show the appropriate information until you actually pressed the device multiple times, and I could see in your video that it's actually up to 1 min delay. Due to your video I tested on my switch and go the same results as yours, and I'm a bit more comfortable with how the thing works, usually I don't press the thing multiple times in a short span anyways.
I Loved the wireshark visualization on how the switch communicates with the several devices.
Lastly, I'd increase my rating of this equipment from 2 stars to a 3 stars. this delayed communication with the phone is a crappy implementation in my opinion. If its about the user experience, make it an option on the Kasa app, so we can configure it as we see fit to our case.
Wow what a great explanation, especially the animations. Thanks for making this video.
Thank you so much for this. This clarifies all of the information out there on these Kasa smart switches. And, I actually followed a good portion of the programming stuff near the end.
Hi. I did have one question. I want to confirm that on a normal three way switch (not a four way switch) that if you use one smart switch it really doesn't matter which switch you replace? I believe your research indicated that I could replace either the line or load side. I am going to be installing two smart switches at one location, and I'm concerned there may not be anough space in the junction box to accommodate both of them.
This is great and confirms some of the challenges that I have been having. Support for TP-Link are very challenged to support their own products.
The other challenge that was not answered with the video was the integration with Google Home/ Amazon Alexa. The biggest improvement we wanted with the smart switch was to able to speak to "Alexa" to turn off/on the lights.
Well we can turn on the lights, but turning them off "is not working". (I am using the load side install configuration)
In the app (Kasa or Alexa), I have to do the following to turn the lights on and off using either app.
1st press of the "button" - light on and button highlighted.; 2nd press - light still on and button off; 3rd press - light off and button highlighted; 4th press - light off and button off.
This pattern can be repeated several times. On one support call with TP-Link the person had me reset the switch and reconfigure it. For a short bit it worked properly, but then fell back into the above pattern.
Tried resetting the switch again, but that did not work this time around.
Using voice commands with Alexa appears to only turn the light on, but not off at all!
Not sure if anyone has had similar experience or a solution, but would greatly appreciate if you have one.
TY again for the video!
Absolutely love this video! Great job.
@25 mins (temp loss of circuit when flipping the switch) - jaw dropped! Of course it would! On eof those things you just wouldn't think about unless you were intimately familiar with switch design. Brilliant. It doesn't really affect my situation but I can imagine it would have been an issue at my previous home. Thanks for figuring this out!
Very well done I have subscribed to your channel I hope more people appreciate the work gone into this video
Finally a video that explains everything properly thanks for the hard work
SO....FREAKIN'...HELPFUL!!!! Answered so many questions I had and solved so many problems. The depth was imperative for me. Thank you so much!
Thank-you for this video. It helped me feel a whole lot better about installing them. Was exactly the information I needed and I thought the format was perfect (even if I did skip from 40m to the conclusion to get to the point).
You are amazing sir. This was a pretty thorough video, really enjoyed it. I enjoyed your thought process and experimentation approach.
This was a great video. Super informative. I actually have a 3-way kasa switch I want to install and the only side that has the neutrals in the box is the load side. I thought I was screwed but now I want to try putting it in the line side and see how it works.
I really enjoyed your presentation. You did a very nice job.
Amazing video. Packed with information and jokes. Thanks
I'm so entertained by this. Looking at the 3 way dimmers which are having a lot of issues apparently.
Amazing video!
Awesome video, thank you so much for the comprehensive analysis and discussion. Will definitely allow me to more confidently use the kit for multiple 3-way circuits and not waste switches as zombies.
BTW - One fun way I used the open commands you used during the analysis previously was to turn an Amazon Dash Button, that sadly have now been discontinued, and turn it into a light switch for my Kasa smart plugs. Required adding a Raspberry Pi to the mix listening to the network and kicking off the status check and change status commands to the Kasa once it sees the Dash Button wake up and try to register to the network.
Worked great for my old apartment at the time with no ceiling lights.
Heh. Dash buttons were cool. Good hack!
Really enjoyed the video! This smart "3-way" switch can be used for 3-way, 4-way and beyond. I actually use it for a 5-way situation.
Thank you. Yes, there is no limit to the number of switch points you can add.
Came here to find out why my light won't turn on, found something much more interesting. Thanks for all the great info! Glad to know I can use it on the side I want and not on the switch side I don't want.
Thanks for kind words Josh.
My kitchen lights have 3 switches and after watching this video I gave a shot at only replacing the 3-way switch on the supply side with a Kasa 3-way switch. I had only partial success: the schedule tended to turn the lights on reliably. But the schedule would never turn the lights off and the use of either the middle 4-way switch or the load side 3-way switch would confuse things. After a week or two I replaced the load side 3-way switch with a Kasa 3-way switch and now things are great! It has been over a month and things work perfectly. I can use any of the 3 switches to turn the lights on or off - and it doesn't confuse the scheduling. I set the lights to come on at dusk and off at 10:00 PM and it has been 100% reliable so far.
So - at least in my case - I needed to install both 3-way Kasa switches to get things to work properly. I didn't modify the dumb 4-way switch in the middle, but I still use it every day without confusing the Kasa switches.
Yeah, this is fascinating. At Geordie's and at least a couple of times here in the comments people have reported this and I *still* have never figured out what is going on in these situations. That's why, in the video, I was looking for signaling between units on the zero-crossing (and not finding any). Are the devices changing the charactaristic impedance so it works better? Are some of these odd voltages being used to signal? I still need to tear these units down and look for more clues. Thanks for this report.
I had this same turn off scheduling problem and incorrect light status at the app. I tried several 3-way switches at the line side but still have the same problem. One thing I noticed is that if the status (circle) at the switch is always regardless whether the switch is on/off on then the switch is not working correctly as indicated earlier. I have successful installed only one 3-way switch at the line side and it is scheduling correctly and status is also correctly at the applications. This switch is working because the status light at the switch does turn on when my light is off and off when my light is turn on either manually or remotely via the apps. So, somehow the defective switches thinking it is already in off position then it doesn't need to turn off my light when it scheduled to turn off. These defective switches turn on as scheduled fine.
Thanks for linking me to that youtube channel it does work with one; (QTTechReview ]
Wow! Great stuff!
Thanks for the great information. Wondered about some of these things, as i've used the TP-Link switches for several years, but just installed my first 3-way. I wondered why i needed two of the switches. Wemo and some other switches only need one switch.
Love the network geek insight.
Excellent detailed explanation and one of the best I have ever seen. Would love to see a video on the reverse engineering of the Kasa. Thank you!
great video and great explanation - thank you!
Very nice explanation - thank you!!
Outstanding video!! Bravo!
Thanks, Jeff!
I used the Kasa App for the install steps and it asked if I was using 1 or 2 of the 3 way Kasa switches and I chose 1 and it guided me in determining which switch to replace and it all worked like a charm. Not sure if this is new for Kasa as articles I have read seem to indicate Kasa does not have any support or documentation on it but it seems they support it now. At least in their Kasa app instructions. But your demo of how it connects to Kasa in the cloud was nice. I have all my switches and Alexa devices on my Guest wifi as I read that was good for security. But I imagine then if my internet went down I would not have access as my iPhone is on my main wifi network so it is probably having to go out to Kasa cloud and back down when I do something from my phone.
EDITED 11/24: This video is amazingly comprehensive - thank you for putting in so much time and effort. I have a 4-way set up and I was attempting to use Kasa's 3 way-smart dimmer setup. My setup works as intended same as QTTechReview with the non-dimming HS-210. However, so far the setup does not function correctly with the dimming KS-230. I exchanged the kits I bought and received replacements in different packaging (shrinkwrapped, as noted by users elsewhere). There may be differences with the replacement units though I have not tried yet. Will add to this if they miraculously work.
Just to update, no they do not work correctly. Toggling the 4 way switch made the others non functional with both kit varieties. Ultimately I took out the 4 way switch and made it a 3 way circuit.
@@statzern - Thank you for your update, I was hoping that I could use a dimmer with a 4-way using the KS 230. I have the newer KS-230 v2 switches, v2 has enhancements but it sounds like it is an ease of wiring thing, I found this online;
Here are some of the specific changes that were made to the KS-230 v2:
The line and load wires are now separated, making it much easier to understand where each wire goes.
The traveler wires are no longer dependent on the order in which they are placed on the main unit. This means that each traveler is equal and can be placed onto either nut on the satellite switch.
A flashing red LED light is now included to help users through the installation process. This light will flash if the wiring on the unit is not correct.
Overall, the KS-230 v2 is a more user-friendly version of the KS-230 that should make installation and setup easier for most users.
Were you able to get it to work with the v2 version on a 4-way
In a 3 way dimmer set, the two switches are different. I put one on the line side and it blinked red until I installed the load side.
@@jstinsley Reports are that you may be able to use one primary switch and two secondary switches to replace a "4-way" dumb switch setup. I have not tried... (And then supposedly you can use the extra primary switch as a normal dimmer - no secondary switch - to control a different light.)
Great video.
Omg..... the explanation on how this set up works is amazing... clueless how it worked without a dedicated slave switch
47:49 "So the Kasa switch is kind of slutty..." OMG, I'm still laughing!🤣😂 Seriously though, for those of us that like to see/figure out how things work, this is a great video. Well done, sir!
Thanks very much for this comprehensive dive into Kasa 3-way smart switches. Based on your analysis, I tried hooking up Kasa 3-way smart dimmers with an intervening 4-way switch in our bedroom. It worked, but as soon as I flipped the 4-way switch, effectively swapping the travelers to the remote Kasa dimmer, it stopped working. The Kasa 3-way dimmers appear to be sensitive to the order of the travelers to the remote dimmer. As soon as I threw the 4-way switch, the Kasa app picked up the change and told me that the dimmer had stopped working, probably due to a wiring error, and suggested I swap the travelers on the remote dimmer. I flipped the 4-way switch, reset the primary dimmer, and it worked again until I flipped the 4-way switch. Too bad. It would have been nice. However, I installed one 3-way dumb dimmer at the line position in the chain and all works well enough for the boss. Thanks again. From one engineer to another, I really enjoyed your in-depth analysis of the WiFi aspects of these fascinating, low-cost devices.
very informative and educational 👍
Another fun one you can do is setting up a home theater using a projector, a motorized projector screen, and a curtain switch. Then create a ITTT function for movie time.
Just ordered some and dimmer ones. I appreciate the technical analysis as well. Always curious what communication is needed (and lack of benefit of having two paired).
Fabulous. Thank you!
This video was very thoughtful and educational! Thank you for taking the time to produce it! Did you ever tear into it and reverse engineer it? Of course the video did make me wonder about how secure they are to hackers and what risk exposure end users are exposed to.
Your video was very thorough and I hung in for the entire show….very informative. I bought the switch set and tried to install one of them on my basement lights (5 LED cans, a rewired fluorescent fixture with LED bulbs, and one switched outlets). I installed the one switch on the line box as there was no common in the 2nd dumb switch box. The 2nd switch had the 2 travelers (black and red) and fed the load from the white wire. The result was the lights cycled on/off about once per second. The circuit worked fine with 2 dumb 3-way switches. I suspect that the wiring in my circuit is atypical but I am also wondering if I am trying to control too many fixtures on the circuit. In any event, I returned the switches to Amazon as I could not get them to work for me. Very frustrating as I would like to be able to control the basement lights from afar. Thanks for your great video.
Great video with great explanations. I watched the entire video (twice). In your research might you know if the Kasa 3-way Dimmer will work with a generic multi-location dimmer? Seems that some people prefer manual operation.
Well thought out video and I enjoyed the comprehensive testing you did. Exceptionally done all around! I bought the 230 kit (which unknowingly came with a main and satellite switch). I was having issues with wiring the Kasa main on a load switch. It wouldn't work no matter how I wired it. Now, I'm debating if I should install the Kasa satellite switch on the load switch or just install the main on the live switch. If I understand it correctly, I assume either option should work...just not the Kasa main switch on a load apparently.
looks like the satellite switch needs to go on the load side and the main switch has to be wired where the power is coming in from.. which is good because typically on the load side of a 3 way setup there isn't usually a neutral in the box...and don't use the ground as a neutral. that can kill someone
Thank you!
Thanks for the deep dive! I was hesitant to wire the 3-way in the hallway because our house is really old and has "depression wiring" shortcuts everywhere. (PS - Iowa State grads remind me of those from Cal Poly SLO. Both schools seem to just pump out sharp engineers.)
Yes. Absolutely. Good comparison.
Thank you soo much!
Great video. Makes it super easy to understand how the 3 and 4 way switch circuits work. Until I started opening my light switches and couldn't figure out why I had a 3-way switch in my house had a single cable coming in and appeared to create a dead short between the hot and neutral wires. After a bunch of searching, I've figured out that I have a "Dead-End 4-way" circuit where the line side box does NOT have a neutral. My neutral is only available in the load side. (I bet they don't include that kind of info in Amazon reviews!) Wish me luck!
Did you get around the problem where you don't have a neutral on the line side? I have the same issue...
@@waltschumacher I did. I had to go down a rabbit hole of 3-way and 4-way switch wiring options first though. if you want to understand the most basic level, there are a ton of tutorials and videos to wrap your head around. But if you need to learn more about different schematics, you're gonna have to start getting creative. They can get pretty hairy to understand in a drawing, let alone trying to guess what's inside the wall where you can't see the wiring. I managed to get all of mine working, so I can verify they do function as expected even with some of the more 'creative' wiring layouts.
Thank-you.
This video is very informative. I had turn off scheduling problem and incorrect light status at the app. I tried several 3-way switches at the line side only but still have the same problem. One thing I noticed is that if the status (circle) at the switch is always on regardless whether the switch is on/off then the switch is not working correctly as indicated earlier. I have successful installed only one 3-way switch at the line side only and it is scheduling correctly and status is also correctly at the applications. This switch is working because the status light at the switch does turn on when my light is off and off when my light is turn on either manually or remotely via the apps. So, somehow the defective switches thinking it is already in off position then it doesn't need to turn off my light when it scheduled to turn off. These defective switches turn on as scheduled fine but not off.
Awesome video! Seemed like you were talking to me. I'm sure everyone feels that personal touch. I subscribed half way through as I knew weather I use your tutorials or not, I'll enjoy the learning.
I have a question: I'm replacing my current light sensor switch (by Heath Co LLC, Model 6108) which I have to press every time to turn on with a Kasa (Model KS200M). The old one turns on two lights in the room. It has four wires coming out Black and Red on one side and Green and Brown on the back plate. The Red and Brown (from the switch) and a Black (coming from the box/wall) are connected together with a wire nut. The Black wire (from the switch) is connected to a Black wire (coming from the box/wall) with a wire nut. The Green wire (from the switch) is connected to a bare Copper wire (coming from the box/wall) with a wire nut. So, four wires (from the switch) are connected with three wire nuts.
The new Kasa switch has four wires coming out. One Green (Ground), two Black (Line/Load) and White (Neutral).
How do I connect the new Kasa switch to the wiring from the wall? Please help - Thanks
Interesting puzzle.
I looked up the Heath/Zenith 6108 (circa 2007) online and it leaks current when off, so presents a slight shock hazard when changing light bulbs controlled by it, as you'll think the socket is completely dead and it won't be. Probably won't kill you, but should be taken out of service.
If you go to manualslib.com you can pull up the manual for the 6108. There are pictures.
The black wire coming out of the switch is from the line or to the load, depending on if the 6108 is in the line or load box.
The green wire (connected to your bare wire) is the equipment safety ground.
The red wire is a traveler.
But the brown wire is "special" -- it helps power the IR sensor and electronics in the 6108 continuously. To do this, Heath has you install a jumper on the non-6108 switch to bring the line or load wire onto one of the travelers and then onto the brown wire of the 6108 across the room.
It's either clever or mad: if the 6108 is the line side box, the neutral comes through the fixture, to the load side switch, through the jumper, to a traveler, to the brown wire and into the 6108. The black wire provides the hot side for 6108. Viola! 6108 has both line and neutral (on black and brown, respectively).
If, on the other hand, the 6108 is in the load side box, the neutral comes through the fixture, and to the black wire going into the 6108, and a jumper in the line side box puts continuous power onto the traveler leaving the line side box, crossing the room, and into the brown wire going into the 6108. And again, viola! The 6108 has both line and neutral (but this time on the brown and black, respectively -- polarity reversed.)
It seems like the 6108 works by switching the red wire that comes out of it, and turning the far "remote" manual 3-way into a SPST switch.
Clear as mud, eh?
Unfortunately, your description doesn't make sense in this model. Why would you bundle the red and brown from the switch with a black from the wall? Are you sure this is right?
Anyway, I guess I'd start by trying to get the 6108 out of circuit and into the trash. So, you have to go into the far/other/remote box and 1) verify it has a 3-way manual switch in it and 2) remove any jumper between the common and traveler that was installed there to power the 6018 in the other box.
Then I'd remove the 6108 and try to put a manual 3-way in THAT box. I don't have enough information to tell you how to wire that though. Hopefully you'll have 3 wires coming into the box to work with -- likely 2 blacks and a red? One of the blacks (line or load) will go to the common (different color) screw. The other will go to one of the traveler screws.
If you get this far, you'll have a circuit with 2 manual 3-ways in it -- and the dangerous 6108 will be going to the e-waste facility.
BUT, you don't mention if you have any neutral wires in the box you want to put the Kasa in (typically white). If not, you're SOL (Well, you could use the equipment safety ground as a return path, but don't do that.) But anyway, if you have successfully converted your setup back to manual, and there is a neutral in that box, you should be able to follow the regular KASA instructions for install.
Dam that was good, have you messed with Geordie’s garage lights from your workstation yet? Nice job on the switch illustration remember to stay out of attics in the summer. Enjoyed your analysis of how the Kasa switches communicate, fool myself into thinking I understood too. Looking forward to the Big Clyde follow-up, try your idea of adding more capacitance to the circuit so we can see if it improves performance.
Thanks Mack. Happy 4th!
Just a heads up on version 2.8 of the KS-230 (Kit) dimmer. If the configuration includes a "crossover" switch between the Satellite and the Main switch (Main is the origin of the power line), once the cross-over switch is moved from one position to the other, the traveler wires no longer have power at the Main switch. If the Main switch is restarted (via the small button below the rocker) the traveler wires come alive and the switch works as usual.
one thing i noticed when installing mine. the neutral wire was only available in the first box so that was the correct solution for me.
Practically speaking....... So, everything works as designed with the single Kasa switch on the line side of the circuit???? appreciate your interest in learning and providing information to folks like me. Thanks. Edit - Thanks, during the conclusion/review, you did indeed answer that in order to keep the Kasa energized continually, it does need to go in the line side switch position. Thanks again.
FYI and I speak from the experience of having all of my parts and pieces staged in front of me waiting for installation.
The TP-Link Kasa KS230 v2 Dimmer is in fact a two switch "kit". One switch is a labeled "Main" and the other switch is labeled "Satellite". The difference between the two switches in the kit is;
The "Main" has connections for Line, Neutral, Ground and the two travelers. According to the schematic in the Quick Start Guide the "Main" switch must be located in the source box. The "Satellite" has connections for Load, Ground and the two travelers. That said the kit cannot be split into two independent switches to conserve costs.
I am trying to visualize how this would be a go or no go on a circuit with a 4-way in the middle. Maybe this has been indicated or identified in previous comments. I will update this comment when I try it in the circuit with a 4-Way in the middle of a three switch circuit.
I have been wracking my brain with the idea of an interposing relay in the middle where the 4-Way is but I have not come up with anything (yet).
OK... Great video... but I got lost. So in order to have the app properly updated to the status of the light (on or off), it is enough to have just one Kasa 3 way switch and it is better to have it on the load box (the last one that before the light bulb)? Is it a good summary?
I have just completed replacing all my Insteon devices with Kasa and I am very happy with the experience. Except for the one 3-way circuit it has been flawless.
The way Insteon handled 3-way is very different from standard wired 3-way circuits and I had to really figure out what I did to get Insteon to work and then change it to make the HS 210 to work.
The complaint I have now is the app will not clearly indicate if the light circuit is on or off. The green circle will come on for a moment but then go off while the light stays on or off as I wish.
I'm unclear about the left reset or right reboot button purpose is. I've pushed both during the setup process and deleted the device then added it again, a few times.
QUESTION, How do I get the app to clearly indicate the ON or OFF state of the device?
Have you looked at the same 4 ways situation with the Kaza 3 way BUT with the Kaza 3 way dimmer?
I'm only at 21:45 on the video, so forgive me if you've already checked this. I note that on my single switches (or SPST) that if I have the Kasa app open and switch one of them on, the Kasa app doesn't show that it's on ... however, if I pull down on the Kasa app screen causing it to refresh it does update the status of the switch ... so if you haven't, try doing a refresh on the app by either pulling down on the screen or totally closing and re-opening the app to see if it shows the correct status of the light. I think it's just a refresh/polling issue with the app in that it doesn't auto update/poll the switch. Hope this makes sense.
Great stuff. I still don't understand why if I turn off the one in the line the one in the load loses power. At least I'm convinced to buy a dumb switch and use the second Kasa on a different location.
I watched your whole video. EXCELLENT! Still a mystery about what happened in your friend's garage. I have since installed 4 HS210, Due to ease of wiring with else was in the box, I put three at the load end of a 3 or 4 way and 1 at the line end. They all work equally well and i am seeing no difference in app response across the 4. the app reflects status change fairly quickly. even with the momentary power drop that you noted, i would imagine that the wifi connection would either never drop or be back near instantaneously. for me, the white circle never goes away. thanks again for the technical detail, but for my application in new construction with common wires everywhere, i am not seeing that a load side installation is any issue. thanks
Thanks for this report. Info like this important for me. Still need to tear one of these suckers open and reverse engineer it some to see if there are more clues....
So i have a definate line side box with neutral, then the light is in the middle of the run and other 3 way switch is at the end of the run with switch loop (used neutral as other conductor properly marked with black tape to indicate as such. Installation no problem with wifi connection/configuration and app worked perfectly. Travelers are correct because both switches turn on and off properly. Problem is, in one position at the dummy switch, the lights (actually two fixtures in loop between switches) flicker constantly until power is cut. Any ideas? KASA support zero help.
I have attempted the 4-way with the Kasa 3-way dimmer model. No success. Has anyone found a work around.
I do have a spare 3-way non dimmer Kasa. Any idea if that could work in the 4-way switch location and group that smart switch?
Thanks
I wish you would figure out how the 3 way dimmer switches work and if you can use them with 4 switch circuit.
Two questions:
1 When using two Kansas, does line side reboot if you stop your 4way in the middle?
2 My line side box doesn’t have a neutral. How could that be made to work?
Super video!!!!
#1 : No. Nothing downstream of the line-side box affects power to it. #2 : You have bring the neutral into the box, there's no way around it. BUT, it doesn't strictly need to be a neutral from the same circuit the Kasa/light is on -- that is, you could steal one from that receptacle outlet nearby and thread it into the box (however, this is not recommended or to code because it can trick and hurt someone who thinks they've killed the receptacle circuit at the panel to work on it -- but will discover the Kasa is still putting current on the neutral -- unless you can gang the breakers for the 2 circuits together. Still...)
I was successful replacing Kasa in 3way circuit without issues (one Kasa and one Manual switch). i am having trouble on a 4 way staircase connection. I have one KASA 3way switch at lower level and one manual 3way on top level and one manual 4 way on top level. My kasa and manual 3 way works only if 4way switch is in toggle off position. if i turn 4 way switch to toggle on position, Kasa automatically turns it off and the 3 ways switches does not receive power. did i mess up wiring? or have Kasa in a wrong box? or do i need Kasa 3 way in second box too. please help.
I have one box that has 2 red, 2 black, 1 green. The other 2 boxes have 1 red, 1 black, 1 green. There is neutral in all 3 boxes. I have 3 way switches. I want all the switches to be Kasa for ascetics. How do I wire this thing?
Hello, don't know if its been asked, I read on the amazon reviews that some are having problems with multiple lights (not clear if with a 3 way configuration), I presently have 3 led dimmable down lights on a single old school manual dimmer. Will the single pole Kasa Smart Dimmer Switch HS220 work with my setup? I called TP customer service and they say NO. Thanks BTW great video!! You should be hired at TP Link for their high level support.
I am having a issue where when using the google voice command i can only get the Kasa switch to turn off when i give the command of turn on. The command of off does nothing. If the light is off the command of turn on will turn them on. Also in the Kasa app i have to press the the button twice to get the lights to turn off. If they are off i can press it once they will come back on. The threeway switchings on the wall work as it should. to futher complaicate think i removed one of the traveler wires and the google voice command and Kasa app work as the should but the wall switches don't. Im thinking i wire things incorrectly but have gone over it and not seeing where. I also tried a different Kasa switch.If you look back in your video you have what seems the same issue with the Kasa app when at this gagrage, you had to press the button twice to get it to respond. Any input would be great.
I tried to Install the kasa 3 way switch at the bottom of my steps, which is fed from the top box. That switch only has a black,red,white, ground. I wasn't able to get it to work correctly 🤷♂️
Great video thank you so much. TPLink should pay you! Is there anything special about the two switches that come in one box... Or can you pair any two three way switches, or alternatively can you just use the two switches to control two separate three way setups?
Nope. Nothing special. They are packaged "for aesthetics" so both switches look the same, because, in a given circuit, only 1 will ordinarily be on the WiFi doing something.
And yes, you can use the 2 switches on 2 different circuits/setups.
I have wired up one Kasa 3 way switch in a 4 way switch circuit it’s works but the issue I see Is the Kasa switch doesn’t know the status of the lights when either of other two switch’s are used the app gets mixed up so it looks like the is light is on in the app but its not, or vice versa
Nice video. It makes sense that pairing would essentially deactivate one of the switches as long as power is being supplied by the traveler lines and the switch detects current flow. Otherwise, the system would be unnecessarily redundant if the switches were programmed to communicate with each other. It also makes sense that the switch is designed to work just as well at the load end since a lot of 3-way / 4 way switches are built into multi-gang panels which would limit the flexibility of installing a smart switch if it always had to be installed at the source end. Moreover, since the purpose of any smart switch is to control remotely, having temporary interruptions in the power by switching the source 3-way or the middle 4-way won't be an issue when controlling via an app.
Thanks for your detailed testing! I'm still confused if you feel this is a good product or not though.
My conundrum: (Im using the "typical" 3 way switch method)
I bought and installed 3 Kasa single pole switches for 3 separate light circuits. They all seemed to work fine using WiFi app and manually switching. Due to their "rocker" style and not being able to mix toggle and rocker style in a 4 gang box (face-plate issue) I ended up buying the 3 way switch set for the 4th light circuit.
Since the instructions (none in the box) stated the Kasa 3 way must be on the first switch I instead installed it in the 2nd switch in line to try but unlike you seemed to have no luck.
I then installed the other Kasa 3 way switch at the 1st line location and 3 way switching seemed to work manually and with the app and the other single pole switches were still working as well.
So... at this point I have a 3 Kasa single pole switches for 3 separate light/circuits (working fine) and added the (2) three way Kasa switches (also working fine) using app and manually.
I came back a couple of hours later and the lights were intermittently unresponsive as if the WiFi signals were getting crossed up. The three way switched lights would not turn on until l I used the app to turn on one particular single pole lights which is on a different circuit. Once I turned that separate switch on, the 3 way switch would then turn on and off prperly. I'm really stumped by this and don't know if the Kasa WiFi controllers are too confused having 4 of their switches in one gang box so close together other wise I'm at a loss and feel like sending them all back and getting a better quality.
Oh man!
First, Kyle Switchplates sells Decora to toggle fillers and other odd-ball plates. FWIW.
But, second, this kind of intermittent problem with some kind of hidden variable will drive you nuts. I've always felt this video is a bit of a failure because, even though I learned a lot, I never discovered WHY adding a 2nd slave Kasa 3-way to Geordie's setup fixed his garage lights -- which is what got me started on this. Others in these comments have reported the same "ghosts."
When you're building inexpensive consumer products in quantity, it's easy to cheap out on the radio, or get a poor antenna design (because there aren't so many good analog guys around anymore), or the WiFi chip comes with a bunch of custom, impenetrable integration software libraries and drivers written overseas. All these things conspire to make a WiFi-enabled product that has difficulty operating in less-than-ideal environments. (In your case, next to other close sources of RF and a lot of variable AC conditions.) I see no indication Kasa is favoring quality over cost. They're not total shit, but they're also just trying to strike a balance where they can satisfy the most people for the least money.
Unfortunately, I haven't researched the market, so can't recommend $omething better.
I am a little worried that the one 3-way didn't work in the load-side box. Either you or I don't understand something correctly if that is the case.
The only way to troubleshoot this is, I guess, to eliminate variables -- like by taking out the 3 single-pole circuits and adding them back one at a time. But, besides being tedious, dull, and awful work, who has the time? And when you're living in the place? And you may not get to a definite conclusion anyway! I mean, do you have radio problems? Electrical problems? A radio-electrical interaction problem?
Wish I could be more help from this remove, but I guess all I can say is good luck with whatever you decide to do! :(
@@WardCo Dude - First of all your this was one of the best evaluation videos I've ever seen! Secondly I watched your video again. I decided to pulled all the switches out, straightened all of my wires nice and tidy then re installed them. I then deleted and reset all 4 switches then verified they all functioned manually. I then powered off all of the switch circuits and one by one (only one on at a time) reinstalled them on the app. I ended up adding the HS210 on the second swittch location and so far all seem to work fine manually and via the app so I was able to keep the toggle switch setup on the first (line) switch location. I suspect I had a traveler swapped or something..who knows. thanks for the tip on the decora plates - I was at Lowes and the guy in electrical department said he never heard of such a thing! Anyway - Thanks for the great helpful and interesting video!!
Good afternoon!
I am attempting to use the kasa230 kit (usa 2.26) with a 4 way mechanical switch between the main and satellite switches.
If the manual 4 way state is not changed, then expected results occur. Either switch controls on/off state and either switch can control dimming.
The voltage from either traveler to neutral is identical as measured with a Fluke 179.
If the manual 4 way switch changes state, dimming control is lost. The load is presented with full source voltage. However either main or satellite switches can turn load off/ on
Can you provide insight and also offer a way to construct a dimming 4 way switch design?
I haven't done anything with the Kasa 230, so I can't comment intelligently. Intellectually (and electrically) the position of the 4-way switch should not matter (to my mind) in a properly wired 4-way circuit -- and your report seems to indicate your circuit is properly wired (especially that the 4-way in the middle is working properly).
In such a set up, I *assume* the 2 Kasa are talking to each other, either over the wires or LAN. If over the travelers, then it seems like the one of the 4-way positions interferes with that. (This is very similar to the problem we saw in Geordie's garage, which was never properly diagnosed, even with all the other stuff I did.)
In a "dumb" circuit you can only dim from 1 position, typically the line-side box, with the downstream devices switching a possibly "dimmed" waveform.
In a "smart" circuit, I'd put the actual dimming in the load-load side box and have the line-side box slaved to it, using out-of-band communication to tell the load-side box what to do. That way the load-side "worker" always sees full power for it's electronics. There's no guarantee that's how Kasa implemented it, however!
Sorry I can't be more help. I really need to circle back and do another video on all this.
I am using a TP-link Motion activated dimmer switch KS220M, ES20M in my bathroom. I would like to set up a routine using my Alexa Voice activation to communicate through the switch using the word “shower”. What I would like the routine to do is when I am ready to take a shower, I would like for the light to stay on for at least 15 minutes or longer.
When I'm in the shower the light keeps going out after one minute, and I must constantly wave my hands to trigger the motion detector to get the light to turn back on while I am in the shower.
Is there a way that I can create a routine to trigger the light for the light to stay on while I am in the shower for at least 15 minutes or longer.
I am also using a Smart Things controller as well as Alexa.
You had me at Emacs.
So it looks like you configured two Kasa 3 way switches separately - if you configure them together (as TP-link intended, I think) would the circuit that you set up with the two 3 way switches work seamlessly?
No. At least not in all cases. On the test jig I ran through every combination, including pairing. If you slog through to the end (or just skip to the conclusion) you'll see that "pairing" simply disables the switch in the load-side box.
That said, just having another TP-LINK on the far end DOES change the electrical characteristics of the the travelers slightly. But it did not make my test jig start working magically, nor could I discern anything definite from that change that the line-side switch could use to behave "better."
That said, Geordie's did improve, and one commenter here states theirs did improve as well, but my test jig did not. It does not seem to be related to traveler length.
Need to tear into these and do some reverse engineering for clues as we get into Winter.
Hi there...thank you for the detail video. Based on your knowledge, I thought I put this forward to get your take. My question is more on the Wifi side and the TP-Link single pole switch. I have two Orbi wifi access points in my home. Most of my devices connect without an issue with them but three of my TP link switches. I have prior TP link switch and it connected to the Wifi without an issue. My Orbi does both 2.4/5.0 Ghz. I have mixture of devices and both types connect fine, even the prior TP switch. These three switches refuses to connect to Wifi. I even switched the Orbi to just 2.4 and still it would not connect. This is strange but after doing just 2.4 Ghz only, some of my 5 were connected also indicating that they are 5. Any pointer or suggestion would greatly appreciated.
Sorry, just saw this. It's cheaper to build just a 2.4 device, which is why so many smart plugs and things only use that band. It's really hard to debug stuff like this, but it sounds like you're doing all the right things. (I too would have suspected the "bounce" some access points do to move devices from 2.4 to 5 when the AP operates both bands under one SSID. But by turning off 5 Ghz, you eliminated that variable.) Beyond moving the APs around, I'm afraid I don' know what o suggest.
@@WardCo Hi there! ...Thanks for the comments...I just saw your response. It seems like the issue was the app. I upgraded my APP and it started to work fine.