The Extreme Highs and Lows of Black Panther: Wakanda Forever
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- Опубликовано: 17 ноя 2022
- Marvel and Disney's latest is Black Panther: Wakanda Forever, the last theatrical film of the MCU's Phase 4. In this video, I talk about Shuri, Namor, Killmonger and many more. Is it better than most of Phase 4? Definitely. Is it the great film many fans were hoping for? Maybe not so much...
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Music by Epidemic Sound (www.epidemicsound.com)
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Special thanks to Andrew Elliott (Stalli111: / stalli111 ) for editing this video!
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What did you think of Wakanda Forever?
Best phase 4 movie by far
Better than most of phase 4 tbh
Goated
A great film
I thought it was okay, probably the best movie of this phase. Better film that the first on a film making perspective. I enjoyed the first one more though.
“We didn’t get the brutal and vengeful Namor from the comics.”
Dude literally threatens Wakanda from jump, drowns their queen, destroys a good portion of their capital, and has plans to dominate the surface world. Just because he sounds calm when he’s doing it doesn’t mean that brutality isn’t there.
I do agree that Riri was the most unnecessary part of the film. They could have had the same conflict between the two nations without the need for the secret “scientist”. That being said I think they could have justified her presence more if she was part of Wakanda’s Outreach program, that way she would have inherently been apart of T’Challa’s legacy and a living argument against the isolationism that Namor was trying to bring back to Wakanda.
RiRi and the CIA plotlines look like they were added after the second draft of the script. Definitely something Marvel exects required Ryan to insert. Not really his fault there, but Marvel has to soft lauch stuff in their movies all the time.
"Bury Your Dead, Mourn Your Losses, You Are Queen Now"
Namor says as he floats over a crying Shuri cradling her DEAD mother in her arms while telling her "I'll be back in a week to do it again" is COLD. I love midnight, but I'm confused how he can think Namor was anything BUT cold, and calculating this film.
Also, YES to the RiRi Williams as a outreach kid is sooo good. It makes it so Shuri has to betray her brothers legacy in the middle of drowning in her guilt over her brother
Both inclusion are probably for the big execs to slap into future stories. Same goes to Namor.
Love CM but was really confused on his take about Namor's brutality aspect. He's the most cutthroat villain in phase 4.
Namor was vicious AND smart. He killed whoever he thought needs to die. He Lets live whoever he thinks it's useful. In my eyes he was only beaten in battle because they roast him(literally took him to a deser inside an oven)
All in all, smart strong villain who did do damage and had long lasting repercussions
I know that this whole movie had real grief to deal with, but I was also expecting some mention of what happened to Wakanda during the snap. Technically, this is the second time T'challa passed in the MCU and that detail doesn't get touched on.
3rd if you count the waterfall fall.
That should be a show. It would be like The West Wing, but Wakanda, and in the MCU (obviously). I would watch that.
It was actually the entire basis of the original script for the movie before well.. you know. But I think why the movie steered away from that was because they just needed to move things forward now, not look back.
I’m kinda glad it was largely ignored. I mean in the context of the universe this was the biggest event in history but honestly I am tired of hearing about it every show and movie (especially after Thor LOT’s abysmal callbacks). Besides from the perspective of Wakanda, I think this is a way more monumental and traumatizing loss bc their beloved ruler is for sure dead
I completely agree
I liked the movie but parts of it were definitely lacking. I did, however, really love Namor. There was just this unhinged rage I could see in his eyes that made me love him.
Yeah I agree his not as arrogant as Namor is in the comics but I definitely loved his presence as a powerful leader of a empire that he built over centuries
He lacks the drip and charisma, but his hidden rage was really shown.
I love him!! Also he looks so fun to draw
I loved this movie. Mostly because of how they handled grief and loss. I lost my best friend the weekend before this came out, who I would always go watch MCU movies together opening weekend.
It sounds silly but it helped bring me a little bit of closure.
It’s not a perfect film but it will forever hold a special place in my heart.
Rest in peace to your best friend
It is not silly at all. I lost my dad in 2021 and haven't processed the grief, like Shuri I had a lot of guilt over not saving him. I cried at three different times during the film. It was cathartic.
So sorry for your loss :( I'm glad the film could bring you some comfort during such a hard time. You'll get through this! ❤
Im in the same situation and i actually went for the movie to get some cathartic tears out, i wasn't interested in it before that event and i got what I wanted. I was very pleasantly surprised with it and it will have a special place in my heart too.
Doesn't sound silly at all. It feels like exactly the sort of thing this movie was striving for. I'm sorry for your loss.
I was actually scared of Namor and Telkoton, it felt like he was truly invincible and no one had an answer for him. I also thought he was much more compelling than Killmonger
Yes. I never liked kilmonger as a villain.
Namor did such a good job.
Same idk what he was talking about he literally killed shuris mom and told them to mourne
Captain Midnight is just blinded by his expectations of how Namor was in the comics. He's objectively better
Fully agree, Namor had the same plot, but done SO much better. Plus he didn't die at the end, so we can actually get to see him grow in future movies.
*Tlalokan
“I miss the more brutal Namor” they killed a guard and Namor responds with killing the QUEEN and kills a lot of civilians with a team of 7 or 8 and bring wakanda to its Knees .
They test out a machine to find vabranium and he murders a full team of seals and cia officers.
I get why people want comic versions but this arguably better than the macho mustache twirling baddie that we get every other movie .
That's how I feel about Namor I like him more in the movie better than in the comics.
Throughout the movie I was like Namor is right
I feel like they actually conveyed the Namor of the Comics. He is ruthless and sees his objectives as more valid than others. He also killed hundreds in this movie.
You know, while people are certainly justified in not liking Ironheart’s inclusion in the movie, I’d actually argue it works based off of the idea that Riri is one of the people that Killmonger was fighting for in the first movie, so to have Wakanda now take her life as seriously as one of their own goes to show a progression of at least that theme in the movies. Could the movie have leaned a little more into that? For sure, but at least for me it makes her inclusion feel less tacked on.
They'll care about outsiders if its "black girl magic"?
So they're racist and sexist?
She's a Harvard student who made tech for the CIA, she's not oppressed and is the literal worst example of someone that Wakanda failed
@@Will_Parker WHICH is why I said the movie could’ve leaned on the idea a little more. Look, its not the best band aid solution but it’s one that keeps the movie together for me
@@brohiddlesby7010 no I'm saying that that didn't exist in the movie at all, you can't lean on something that isn't there. If it had then I would agree with you that the character would have a reason to be there but she was only there to set up the show.
Dont be racist. The only reason she is there is to promote her disney show. You gotta love mcu fanboys denial and mental loops to justify when a movie sucks.
You can honestly feel the parts of the movie where Chadwick was suppose to be, so the rewrites feel genuine... I definitely loved the idea of further expanding on Riri Williams life mattering much more after the tone of the first.. Namor’s views + age really made for a captivating character. Him being older and jaded is a better direction to take him but I do wish Talokan got introduced to the world or how big the nation is got discussed more.
I think the biggest problem is that they're trying to make her a better version of Tony without any of his flaws when a better route for her is to make her more like Peter Parker.
Imagine having to go to junkyards and stuff to make her inventions while balancing her home life, school work, family and the burdens of being a superhero. Feels much more compelling to me than turning her into Tony Stark 2.0.
@@Lobsterwithinternet I think you're jumping the gun a lil bit. When I watched she came across as a little arrogant and it's only a little because there wasn't enough screentime for her. She was a plot device, not a character which you could say is a flaw in itself but I think that absolves the characterization for now. She'll hopefully get more depth in her tv show.
I would've preferred if they had expanded on the global politics aspect of the film and treated Talocan as an actual state or political entity instead of yet another secret group we never knew was there (a la Eternals, Inhumans, wizards, mutants, Wakanda, etc., etc. etc....)
To be honest that would be have been good but yet you have the anti-woke crowd thinking the movie would be bad if they did that and not have big bombastic action.
Hardest disagree of my life
I feel like this is the best way to handle it moving forward, but I think it's okay for the first appearance that they didn't.
@@xadielplasencia3674 How many times do you think they can re-use that same tired trope - "They've been here all along, they were just hidden."
After Endgame, giant Celestial in the ocean, and the Sam 'n Bucky Show, this movie would've been the perfect spot to explore the global situation as Wakanda is easing into the relations with the rest of the world.
@@TheInedibleHulk the trope is not the problem
Really interesting to hear that you had a mixed opinion on Namor since you’re familiar with the comics persona. However as someone who’s only ever heard of Namor through RUclips videos I really liked this take. I think Tenoch brought a lot of personality to the character apart from “angry fish man”. The calmness actually makes him a more menacing character and justifies the “god” ideals the people of Talokan hold him in. Plus since this isn’t the end of Namor in the MCU I’m sure we’ll see a more focused take on his ideals in a different movie maybe a solo series.
except everyone is missing the fact they made a Mexican charcter cross over a countrys border threw water, then they have to dry his back off......
@@zachemorgan bestie what 😀
@@zachemorgan Namor was not Mexican wtf
@@hermstefanny he was aztec which is basically mexican. aztecian/atlantian. now in the comics he wasn't mexican at all.
@@zachemorgan he’s Mayan, more closely in common with Guatemalans.
Totally agree about Ironheart being included and the CIA agents literally didn't affect the story at all. But I don't know Namor from the comics but I loved this guy. I think he was the star of the movie. I really hope he returns in a big way at some point.
I don't get people's issue with the CIA stuff... do you people not realize there are like a bajillion D+ shows now? The movies are part of a UNIVERSE. In order for that universe to have continuity, you need to develop characters when you can. Evil Elaine Benes is gonna play a big role in future projects.
I thought Leita Wright stepped up big time I definitely enjoyed movie but couldn’t help but think about Chadwick missing in a lot of the lead parts of the movie specifically Ramonda and Shuri parts it just feels every scene where they were the center of the scene was written for Chadwick but nonetheless everyone stepped up big and Namor was well written
Shuri needed a Shuri, but Riri needed her own time to be her own character.
I honestly really liked it. Yes, I can definitely see people’s problems, and some of them I share. But it’s highs, for me at least, overshadow it’s lows
You took the words out of my mouth.
Sjw trash
@@johnnycage6676 Ok. Keep preaching that.
Finally someone has said it ❤
@@MinecraftWorld1954 ou people are the reason for the forced diversity crap
This first movie was really good but this one felt very different in a positive way. Unlike many opinions, I don't find this movie too long, i love the pacing and enjoy it a lot I don't mind sit in the cinema for additional 30 or so minutes.
I like the way they deliver a superheroes story, the characters felt like a real human, like they actually have feeling about things happening around them.
Yeah I agree. Some people have really short attention spans.
@@jaylan7847 I don't think it's the short attention span problem it's more an issue with pacing. The Cia and Riri plot lines really took needed screentime from other characters
@@21quepasa Yeah, Riri needs her own movie to establish her as her own character instead of Tony Stark 2.0.
My friend told me that the movie is going to be almost 3 hours so we watched it in the afternoon. But the movie was so good that it didn't feel like a 2+ hour movie. It feels fast, in a good way. Unlike doctor strange 2 and thor 4. Especially Thor 4. It was so hard trying to sit through that movie even though that movie is much shorter than black panther 2
@@gdottothegamer1001 only for you ,Thor 4 was amazing !
I thought the invasion of Wakanda at the end of act 2 was fantastic and it made the actual climax feel weaker by comparison. I really felt the length of this one.
Great point. It felt more Wakanda vs Tallocan(?) than the finale. Each faction using their tech to counter the others.
Then the finale is just a big dumb battle on a big boring ship, with more screen time allotted to slow mo randos killing each other than Namor vs Black Panther.
@@spartanB0292 thats so true! Having the battle be on one single boat did make the finale seem tiny by comparison.
@@lilith4961 not just that, it makes wakanda seem stupid as hell. Yes, bring a fricking BOAT to battle the all powerful inhabitants of the sea 🤦
@@spartanB0292 yea lol. Why would you bring a single ship to the one place were your enemy has the biggest advantage.
@@spartanB0292 They were on the ship to protect the citizens. I actually liked it. It was more like an operation than a big showdown. The point was not to mow people down, but to isolate and kill Namor.
I'm hoping phase five brings in better editors. I understand the Avengers movies running over 2 and a half hours, but it doesn't mean all their movies need to be huge, epic-length movies when the story doesn't really call for it.
I agree with you but to be fair, a movie about a war between wakanda and atlantis (talocan) calls to be epic
Better writers*. Shang Chi was better when everything was grounded, there wasn't a real reason why he had to fight a dragon.
WF calls for it to be epic, but some subplots clearly aren't needed.
Nevermind editors, these guys need WRITERS.
Honestly MOM and LAT should've been longer while this should've been shorter
@@racool911 Both needed to be better written. While I did enjoy MoM ultimately, L&T was a giant mess.
I actually loved everything outside of the lazily done CIA plot point. 8/10 for me. 8.5 with the mid credits scene. Emotional, poignant, beautiful, spiritual and respectful to the legacy of Boseman.
Same
Oh yeah agreed on that. It was really nothing but larger MCU plot building for Thunderbolts or whatever. I just got out the theater and I'm already forgetting that part.
@@toontrooper4103???
For whatever faults, it's still one of the better installments of phase 4 since NWH.
namor was great. definitely a strongpoint for this film
i thought that Namor (or, KuKulKan) was one of my favorite parts!
Although the movie didn't change the game for superhero movies, i think i got what i wanted out of iit, and Angela Basset went HARD!!!!
When she shouted "I am queen", god that was great moment. She is a terrific actor.
I came into it, I just wanted to see if they paid tribute and did Chadwick justice and they did. That ending had me almost in tears
I’ll say this: there were probably ten things Namor could have done with Riri before resorting to murder. That will definitely become a topic of mockery by HISHE
Exactly lmao I love that channel
His people were killed and enslaved, her mere existence opens up the possibility of it happening again. Why risk the possibility of the americans getting riri again?
@@prostateannihilator Because she could just promise not to make anymore designs like that machine again. Pinky swear even.
@@benwasserman8223 lol hey dawg who knows maybe? I mean she’d defo agree to it but she didn’t even know what she what they were using her tech for. And I know this comment was obvi sarcastic but I just wanna point out how the American government tried so hard to get Tony’s tech and dude had to fight to keep his shit, what do you think they’re gonna do when it’s a young black woman? “Oh to be young gifted AND black”
@@benwasserman8223 and one should risk the well being of his people on the promise of a child with a dangerous secret that every country in the world would kill to know. And the US Government already knows who she is.
I mean, even if she promises not to reveal the secret, who's to say the CIA doesn't just black bag her, take her to Guantanamo and torture the information out of her, much less get offered so much taxpayer money that her and her family would never need to work again?
Something I noticed about the movie that I liked is how the movie talks about how marginalized communities end up fighting each other or within each other instead of working together to tackle their bigger outside threats and problems like the other countries trying to take over their vibranium.
Only thing I didn't like was how now Wakanda has to paint itself as the bad guys cos they're essentially forced to keep the sea ppl a secret
I really loved that Namor literally created his own enemy.
1.Killing Rwonda sent Shuri on the path of destroying Namor.
2.Namor literally gave Shuri the materials needed to become the Black Panther.
I thought that it was a really smart way of writing a rivalry.
Really glad my 3 favorite MCU reviewers, Schaffrillas, Cosmonaut, and Captain Midnight all posted their Wakanda Forever reviews, I personally really enjoyed the movie, one of the best ones of phase 4
I'm glad there are real reviews now, not the Grifter garbage from the usual hatemongers
Same. I was actually going to watch the other two after this video.
Yeah but the movies real bad. Like ultra shit 😂
@@marknewcombe2488 Better than "The Batman"
I love Captain midnight and Schaffrillas, I'll have to check out Cosmonaut. I love channels like this who can give fair reviews and criticism without being overly pissed off over politics and social justice elements.
I loved Namor's motivation, and they made his attack on Wakanda makes sense. I did hate how they wasted Namora however (rolls eyes). The writing was pretty good and they did it in such a way that at time each character had a villain trait to them and that also showed that every character is dealing with grief in some shape form or fashion. RiRi was .....ok at best. I look forward to seeing what they do with the next installment.
I really liked Namor and Talokan. Angela Bassett, Letitia Wright and Tenoch Huerta were amazing. As for Riri Williams and the American characters having so much screen time, I'm sure it's because Marvel is setting them up for future projects.
Same
Phase 4 has been full of highs and lows. This is probably one of the highs but not without its flaws.
this
Yep
*its
I always look forward to your videos on Fridays. There’s something so…homey and relaxing about them? Anyways, thanks, as always.
I'm convinced Shuri should have gone full villain, make her like a Dr. Doom style queen
Riri Williams just did not need to be in this movie. There is even some slight irony that Marvel's addiction to shoving character introductions in the center of other characters' films can largely be traced back to T'Challa's wildly successful debut in Civil War, and now here we have a character introduction shoved much more awkwardly into a film that is otherwise a pretty admirable tribute to the passing of both T'Challa and Boseman himself.
I feel like if this film were made in Phase 1 or 2, the MacGuffin would just be an unnamed scientist that Ross refuses to give up to Namor, and her identity would only be revealed in a post-credits scene. That's more than enough to get us hyped for a future Riri Williams appearance, and Marvel knows it - or at least they used to.
I think Killmonger was a more interesting villain in terms of emotional depth, but as someone who's read a lot of Silver Age marvel comics, it was a real treat to see Namor portrayed as so menacing and competent. The scenes of him pivoting around in the air like he's kicking off of something were great. In a visual and practical sense, I enjoyed him as a villain more than Killmonger, who continued the dark-reflection-of-the-hero trope that everyone was already tired of at that point.
Namor is more than 500 years old. He’s been king all his life. His heart is with his people and He’ll do anything to protect them.
As usual, your summary is a bullseye. 👍
Solid review 🎉
It's interesting to hear the comparison between the compellingness between Killmomger and Namor. I never found Killmomger that compelling, and I really found Namor really captivating. Of course i know that that has to do with me, since I'm mexican. I think both of these villain's stories can resonate un a very deep level with some people and which one you prefer will depend on your life experiences.
I thought it was a pretty good movie, but was bloated by having to set up Riri, Midnight Angels, and a future Nato vs Wakanda-Talokan conflict. I thought the movie was at its best when it focused on the Wakanda cast.
I do like the orgin setup of Namor and Talokan compared to what could have just been a boring Atlantis 2.0
Wakanda For-Sometimes is definitely the lowest point of this movie.
Namor's origin is aesthetically and thematically cool, marred by poor visuals not conveying how awesome Talokan could have been. But Namor himself is just another Killmonger, just another rah rah everyone who isn't one of my people is bad sort of villain. I'm tired of them.
Wonderful commentary!
I also think it's a good film, but that it gets in its own way.
You can simply delete the agents and Ironheart.
There are scenes that could have been tighter.
Many of the Wakanda characters are really interesting and could have used more screentime.
I like Namor a lot though.
The motivation is there. Wakanda is the only nation that can threaten Namor. At the same time, they have the identical problem with the rest of the world.
In addition, his distrust of the rest of the world is on a very good foundation and well, he's right.
Which you can see very well in the scene at the United Nations.
It could have been better and shorter at the same time
Is definitely one of the better phase four movies for me with Spider-Man 3 and Doctor Strange 2, but phase four isn't nearly as good as it could be and I'd like to know what's going on at Marvel Studios and why.
“Bury your dead, mourn your losses, you are queen now”
Idk why you felt like Namor wasn’t menacing tbh. He literally was calm and calculated on everything he did. Even when Rhonda went to the beach to confront him he literally give a damn what she said to him. He told her “If you try to find us I will kill you” in a calm voice like he knew he could do it with ease. Even in the ending he explained why he made a truce. “One day the Wakandians will be attacked and the only ally that they’ll have is Talokan”. He never even shifted off of his main agenda in the end. Everything he did was calculated.
Also the Riri take is kind of bad imo. It literally built off of the philosophy of Killmonger. For example when Shuri went to the ancestral plain he said “How many people like your scientist did Wakanda protect before I took the throne? If it were T’ Chaka he would have put claws into her no hesitation” Like it literally tells you in the movie that he changed Wakanda forever (no pun intended).
I haven't finished the video but your take on Namor is really interesting. I haven't read the old Namor comics so I went in with no expectations and film Namor made me feel uneasy, he's clealy rational and logical, with a calm demeanor, but something about Tenoch's acting made Namor feel unpredictable, sinister in a way, not enough to make it a defined character trait (and probably not the writing that was intended), but the acting especially in his introduction made me really fear him and his wild card role
Rational? That's an odd choice of words to describe someone whose entire way of thinking is based on sweeping generalizations based on "not like me = bad, like me = good"...
@@FelisImpurrator
That's not at all how he was, hell he wanted to ally with Shuri and she's not like him
@@jasonjones3328 It was literally the point that he wanted to use Wakanda to further his own goals. That's the point of the ending scene where he talks about how they'll be useful allies against the surface. He also only approached Shuri that way because he felt they would be similar and that she would also share the same resentment of the rest of the world.
These are some very interesting points. Nice video and very well spoken. I still love this movie
Ok I’m going to say it. The Namor bits showed he should have got his own movie.
Angela Bassett has the single best acting scene I’ve ever seen in a Marvel movie.
I think the main issue here, was they either needed to can the original script or recast T'Challa. They were juggling way too many topics as well as trying to set up Disney+ show. Main reason why they didn't recast him was because the Black Panther title was eventually going to Shuri in the future, and they didn't want to rewrite the script because of timelines. This is a commonality between Phase 4 projects - they always have 1 eye on something else, such that their current projects become trash.
The amount of pushback Marvel received would have ruined this movie's chance. T'Challa being recasted wasn't being warmed to until the movie re-write was nearly finished.
@@lello2031 I don't recall alot of pushback for recasting T'Challa. I absolutely loved Chadwick Boseman as T'Challa. After he was introduced in Civil War, he was automatically a top 3-4 character IMO, but as soon as I heard the tragic news, I knew they needed a new leading character. The rest of the cast was strong, but wouldn't be able to replace the charisma of Boseman. This is the main issue of the MCU right now, a lack of charismatic likeable characters.
@@awesomeblossom2417 It was all over social media for people telling Marvel how disrespectful it would be to re-cast T'challa for BP2, the common consensus was to bring MBJ back as a redeemed killmonger or have M'Baku take the mantle.
Up until the rumor mill of Shuri being the new BP and Namor (nearly a year after his passing, were people being more comfortable with his recast)
@@lello2031 Ahh okay, you're talking about the vocal 0.5%. I really don't think they were thinking of them at all. They had a plan to transition to Shuri all along, and recasting another guy would have messed up that plan. They just accelerated their original plan.
As sad as it was I would have preferred a recast as he is one of my favourite characters, with Denzel's son. Did a good job all things considered
See, what was interesting to me was that I read that Winston Duke was given a bigger role after Letitia Wright became injured on-set. So how would much screen time would he have had in the “original” script? None?
Where was this said? All I read was him wanting a bigger pay rise.
i absolutely love this take on naymor. worked with the themes so well
“I wish Namor Was a bit more like his brutal counterpart in the comics”
*shows a scene where Namor is literally screaming at Talokan telling them to rise in order to launch a full scale attack on Wakanda, which ends up killing the queen and causing casualties*
too much Bilbo Baggins 💀
The special effects were a lot better than the first one
Thank you for your unbiased view on the entertainment industry.
3:20
“He isn’t furious.”
Namor: Wants to commit genocide for revenge and to protect his people.
“He isn’t unpredictable.”
Namor: Goes from wanting allegiance between Wakanda and Talokan to genociding the whole world.
My guy I feel that he was both.
I think this interpretation of Namor is being undervalued severely. I'm not a big Namor fan but what makes the angrier and sometimes straight up villainous Namor more interesting or compelling than the movie version. Coogler likely knew how important it was for a lot of latino and indigenous fans of the MCU to see a part of their culture reflected on screen. To have Namor be this raging king would take away from that. He still is compassionate and villainous at the same time. While I do understand the point about American characters in the film I'm actually really really glad the film doesn't focus on America at all really. To me it's a lot more interesting to see how two different global powers are in conflict with each other. While I do feel like Riri could've done more I think it's also worth acknowledging her connection to Shuri while brief, endeared me to both their characters. Overall I liked Wakanda Forever a lot I really hope we see more serious marvel movies that respects it's characters like this and Eternals.
The small theater I saw it at actually put in a 10 minute intermission and it helped SO VERY MUCH. I absolutely agree with you that the set-ups for IRONHEART and THUNDERBOLTS were unnecessary and dragged the whole thing down but.. other than that, I liked most of it. I didn't mind how different Namor was from the comics, that Namor makes more sense in the these stories than the comic book one. Basically, I really liked it but if they could've ditched all of the Ironheart stuff and most of the Thunderbolts stuff, I think it would've been a damn fine little meditation on grief and healing.
For any gripes about Riri, I just figure Execs going to the writers and saying 'hey, we need a plug-in for the next line-up show so I need you to find a way to include this character in your story. Make it work."
Wow great perspective on Shuri and the erb.
I think, this film was a life saver for Marvel in the finantial way, but more like a race against the lock. The pandemic hit hard I guess to the company and the loss of Chadwick played against what the director had planned originally. Thor Love and Thunder didn't work. Multiverse of Madness was not the succsess they wanted. This was the last bet of the year. The emergency exit.
Not to mention the hate for She Hulk and Ms Marvel
@@arturocastroverde3349 With Ms Marvel . . . yeah it has been a very . . . like we use to say in Spanish "al vapor" that means that a story done with less care due to the budget. Compared to Wandavision or Loki VFX was not treated with care; however, being honest it wouldn't work. Streching hands or glowing limbs . . I don't see how it would fit in a live action.
In the case of She-hulk, I think no matter how prepared they were for the critisim of Macho Males . . . They actually had fear. I liked that the series could be episodic with funny lawyer stuff like in the comics. They have Deadpool Writers now, my God! I think it wouldn't be a problem to ask funny writers to do the scripts for She-Hulk, it lacked that. That's my only complain, it was not funny enough. The rest was from haha to meh, to please the fans with Daredevil.
I thought it was great honestly. I can understand some of the critiques, especially Riri’s suit, it reminded me of a power ranger. But over all I found the characters and motivations really compelling, I don’t think I’ve been as upset for a character as much as I did for shuri in this film except from Peter in no way home, honestly my heart broke a few times during the film and the characters felt very real and fleshed out. MBaku is officially one of my favourites after this film, his role as an advisor to shuri works really well and he’s a great actor. So many great performances and they handled Chadwick’s death really respectfully. Although I know it has flaws, this is definitely one of my new favourites, I haven’t stopped thinking about it since I saw it on release day
How is it respectful, it was pathetic
@@Chronz It was better than "The Batman"
My wife and I saw this movie and she isn’t a big MCU fan. We both walked out the theater thinking there was no reason for these two civilizations to fight. Namor wanted an alliance with Wakanda which he gets in the end but he also wanted to attack the surface world. That last part was really not fleshed out and given no one even knew he exists seems quite unnecessary. Even if people did find out he exist being allied with Wakanda would at least give them pause to attack.
Thanks 😀
I really loved Wakanda Forever even though I agreed with with much of Cap’s criticisms. I did think that Riri and the Ross subplot were unnecessary, and just there to set up future projects, but it didn’t interrupt too much of the runtime. All I know is that Marvel needs to hurry up and get to work on a solo Namor project, because he wasn’t too fleshed out, but he was the absolute best part of the movie and I am excited to see him developed even more. Overall, I’d say Wakanda Forever is the 5th best MCU movie. However, I believe that if Chadwick Boseman had been around as T’Challa, this movie would have been number 1 for me.
Some people I've spoken to said they loved it and power to them if they did, but I left feeling a teeny bit underwhelmed. Not to the extent I have with almost every other MCU venture recently but still, I remember immediately thinking Riri was not necessary, I thought she was a fun character, just not needed. And as for Namor I couldn't put my finger on it beyond he wasn't how he is in the comics. That's not always a bad thing and what made it harder for me to put into words was the fact that I didn't dislike this Namor, it just wasn't what I was hoping for.
Namor was too short and didn't have enough muscles. He should've been built like Chris Hemsworth or Chris Evans.
If more people ask for it,They can put Mr. Huerta working out harder next time.
@@matthewpatrick7263 the actor went more of a swimmer-type look instead which isn't bad.
I strongly agree
As a huge Ironheart fan, I loved how much time we got with Riri! But I totally get where you’re coming from overall.
Ironically I feel like Marvel is repeating past mistakes.
I remember people complaining about shoehorning in other plot threads into Iron Man 2 and Age of Ultron to set up future content and I thought Marvel would have learned their lesson about that.
they never did they are better at it then they used to be but in phase 4 theyve been slacking reAl hard
yeah just by looking at the runtime I was like nah
I got bored, fell asleep for an hour, woke up having missed nothing if importance, and got bored again
I agree with every point except I liked Namor's more subtle, hidden rage. Sure, he might give you a chance and talk it out if he respects you, but he won't hesitate to kill to get his way.
i want an extended version of this with more scenes from wakanda and how Okoye dealt with getting fired, and how she got the rest of the crew back for that final battle.
i also really want to see more of Mbaku and his tribe. his back story seems colorful
I think this my favorite phase 4 film. really hit all the notes for me.
Honestly I loved the movie. There was a lot of depth and nuance to all the characters that we haven’t gotten for most of phase 4, and it’s very welcome.
It's just more trash coming out of the MCU's bin.
@@bakedbeans5494 It's better than "The Batman"
@@ShadowSonic2 I couldn't care less.
@@bakedbeans5494 Tough, it was also better than "No Way Home", a spineless movie.
@@ShadowSonic2 True.
Wait so Namor isn’t brutal?!
He’s pretty brutal but it seems that they’ve toned him down to make him more likable
I really felt about Namor too. He wasn't a giant Ahole like in the Comic, he wasn't a hot head in this movie.. i really wanted that part of the character. But Everything else worked for me. He became easily one of my Top 5 MCU characters
I agree I feel like Martin Freemans scenes could have been cut to one scene of him helping them and the end scene where they rescue him and it would have told the same story
Spot on assessment. I thought they made Namor terrifying, and the calmness just added to that... but yeah. Pretty good, not great.
I really liked this film and in a lot of ways I think it’s stronger than the first film, but a little weaker in other places. Honestly I really liked what they did with Riri here. I’m not familiar with her comic book counterpart, but I liked that she wasn’t a glorified cameo/trailer for her Disney+ show. She actually had a part to play in this movie and I personally really grew to like the character by the end. Everything with Namor I was also a personal fan of and I think he’s probably the strongest villain from a character perspective since Thanos.
But I do agree that the other American characters in this film didn’t really grab my interest and should probably have been cut. Martin Freeman felt like he was reading off cue cards at times. It really wasn’t his strongest performance and I think the film could have gotten away with just a short cameo and maybe the appearance at the end and I would have been a lot happier. Dreyfus’s character I could have also done without to be honest too. Her character’s presence makes sense, but it still felt to me like the forced cameo for a Disney+ show it probably was in all the ways that Riri’s role didn’t. I’m not sure if cutting them would have entirely fixed the pacing issues, but I would gladly have accepted more M’Baku scenes instead like mentioned.
The more I think about it, the more comparing this film and the first film almost feels like comparing apples and grapes. I don’t really think I can definitively say I like one over the other yet:
RiRi WASN'T "a glorified trailer"??
You seals will sell anything Disney - what a joke of a statement!!
I'm sure it's JUST A COINCIDENCE she's getting a solo show..
JESUS WEPT
@@darrengordon-hill Thos is no different than Punisher being in Daredevil's show
@@ShadowSonic2 THIS IS A MOVIE
I feel like this movie had the responsibility of introducing new shows down the road, so some of the characters had to be shoehorned in.
Great video again. I one hundred percent agree. The family aspect and shuri's journey should have been its own movie or even mini-series on Disney. They should have saved namor for a totally different project.
Mostly agree with you. Namor ruled. The american stuff was lame and just made me roll my eyes internally. Great visuals, Angela Basset stole the show on the Wakanda side. They wrapped the stuff up alittle too weird with Shuri's 180 - that felt off. Still, super enjoyed the movie. One of the better phase 4 movies if not the best. Incredible visuals. Love love love all the underwater stuff. Some flat out iconic shots and costuming.
It's an amazing movie even without analyzing the movie you can see how every scene in the movie lead to Shuris emotional journey. She was grieving the lost of her brother during a time Wakanda was under pressure by the rest of the world for their natural resources. The world fear Wakanda and Namor out of fear of his people being destroyed by the world took extreme measures to align with Wakanda. Shuri wanted to destroy the world but her humanity and her brothers legacy kept her from doing that. Once her mother was killed she went back to her mentality of revenge. She was unable to safe her brother and felt helpless, but with her mother she was able to get revenge. Ultimately the lost of her brother put her on the path of vengeance and her mother's lost futhered that range. She put all her helplessness on saving her brother and turned it into vengeance. But her brothers humanity saved her in the end and she decided to spare Nampor. By showing selflessness in sparing Namor and the world she was finally able to fully grieve her brother.
Trash movie.
Sucks that Letitia Wright acts like a 10 year old
Dafuq . Why did she want to destroy the world, is she a psycho
@@bakedbeans5494 Better than "The Batman".
@@Chronz Same reason Magneto did.
namor seems like a calm and reason person
I loved Wakanda Forever for its incredible and touching acting and how gracefully it handled the death of Chadwick Boseman, for me it's a 10/10 masterpiece that I will see again when it hits neflix
Riri is by far the biggest problem in the movie:
1) She has no character arc, and no real motivation; you may say that's the fate of McGuffins, but the trick is at least to make them relevant to other characters, to make them bond with someone and something, to find some purpose along the way;
2) She is overpowered - Most of her character-building is just a constant flex on how smart-and-young she is; Character-building means presenting the context and the core motivation of a character (their wants and their needs), not bragging about them; she looks like a crossing of a black-women-in-STEM-strong! and some sort of demography marketing ("hurr durr teens won't like a film without a teenager!");
3) It really seems someone had written the plot of the movie, presented it to production, the marketing team stepped in and said "nice, but we need this marketing tool: black, woman, STEM" to be in the movie, and the screenwriters just added it in the most harmless way to the rest of the plot;
4) The nullity of the CIA character is a consequence; they probably were called to film those three scenes in one day as a fix for the above;
All in all, BP:WF was a good movie constantly interrupted by the useless and annoying presence of this character; it has been almost as if one was watching the movie and every now and then this person walked in front of the screen to brag about its own virtue signalling.
Nitpicking: Shuri eats the flower, becomes the new Black Panther and she doesn't only gains strength and speed but also combat ability, despite having just been a god-scientist (she invented the whole of Wakanda in every scientific field: botany, medicine, genetics, every kind of engineering, chemistry, chemistry of materials, etc.) and at best someone with two laser-things on the hands. If the flower gives you also combat abilities and not just superpowers, what did T'chall bring to the table? Personality?
I have only only 2 problems with this movie.
Shuri not being officially made queen. It annoys me that Wakanda's leadership keeps changing.
Namor killing Ramonda. It felt too similar to Dark World. I get why they killed her off but it feels too soon.
Other than those 2 things this movie is a masterpiece in my eyes.
Shuri is not ready to be queen
Namor killing ramonda reminds me to Green Gobling killing Aunt May in NWH
@@julianxamo7835 She could have learned as she when along what to means to be a great leader. M'Baku could easily have taught her. Shuri isn't a bad person, she just let rage and vengeance consume her while she was at her worst. Once she overcame it and started to grieve she could have let this happen.
@@mariac.1543 I get why they killed her off. It was because they wanted Shuri to be a mirror of Namor. Its just that we've already seen this 2x with Frigga and recently with May and the latter caused something similar. I was hoping, instead of killing her off, Namor would seriously injured her so that it would force Shuri to take over. Then by the end she becomes queen and her mother teaches her how to be a great leader. When she died I was hoping M'baku would fill that role.
@@StuartLugsden I'm pretty sure she doesn't want the burden either
Namor was the highlight of this movie! Memorable acting!
Definitely one of the stronger entries in phase 4 probably my second favourite film behind no way home I still left a little underwhelmed especially by the excessively long third act but the performances saved thus one for sure. Some of the scenes of Letitta Wright and Angela Bassett were so good, Bassett especially was incrediblely powerful in her scenes. I'd probably give it like a 6.5/10
I want to start by saying you're entitled to your opinion, however, I don't understand the negativity many MCU movies are getting from my favorite RUclipsrs. Phase 4 wasn't perfect by any means, but BP:WF, Spider-Man NWH, and MoM were nearly perfect. Even Love and Thunder wasn't as bad as I was told it would be. The only thing I didn't like about WK is the CIA plotline. It might be because I don't like Namor in the comics, but WF's Namor is probably one of my favorite "villains"/anti-heroes in the MCU.
Characters should remain true to themselves and serve the plot, not your expectations and comic accuracy.
Just chill out guys, and enjoy the movies based on the quality of the plot, not where you believe the story is going, or how a character is portrayed from a comic in the 50-90s.
I agree too, Namor in the comics, isn't the best character to be honest. Very arrogant, this version was better.
Wait for Kang and Doom. Some Marvel villians are not too humble. Having a lot of characters like that would be tedious.
@@digitalpotato4867 I completely agree
@@digitalpotato4867 agree
I really enjoyed it personally, I definitely see what you mean when you say they could have cut the American characters out of film as well as iron heart. Still I don't think they bogged the movie down cause the performances were pretty solid all the way through.
Also as someone who isn't all that familiar with namor, I thought he was a great antagonist. Intimidating and understanding is how I like my villains.
As for the runtime I think take out the excess exposition and save iron heart for her series, the movie would have been perfect. Still I actually like the runtime. Aside from eternals and NWH most of phase 4s films have been too short. A long runtime as well as an engaging cast and script kept me invested in the film. Big props to Ryan coogler for making it work for the most part.
You got a spam bot replying to people in your comments. Also, I feel the same way you do with Riri, she was actually my biggest issue with the film and felt that entire character could’ve been taken out the script completely.
I honestly did like how Namor was I feel like they made him cooler than he is in the comics at least to me
I REALLY liked this movie. Definitely a great movie, but not perfect. I was thinking, to mend some of the film's lacking focus, what if it was Shuri who build the Vibranium detector? That way, Shuri and her actions will have a bigger stake in the film, with her having to deal with the consequences of her technological advancements, now that they are in the hands on non-Wakandans. Just an idea. Overall, very positive, and glad Ryan Coogler made a film this great considering all the pressures he must have been under.
Why should Shuri build a vibranium detector when Wakanda is the only known location of vibranium? Also why would she build it at all knowing it'll probably be used by people trying to take advantage of vibranium?
i didn't think Riri was just unncecessary, i found her character actively unlikeable and flat. just a mess of "sassy black girl" cliches with very little charisma or presence. not the best set up for a disney+ series imo. agree that they overused ross and valentina, too. limiting them to just one or two quick scenes would've been more than enough to keep the chracters relevant within the MCU without derailing things.
overall the thing i was most disappointed by was how bad a lot of the action/fighting scenes were. the car chase was decent and the fight on the bridge between okoye and the big blue dude was great. everything else either felt dull or there were just so many CGI-laden quick cuts that it felt like watching a transformers movie.
letitia wright was fine. she did a competent enough job at taking a lead role. the mid-credits scene revealing mini-t'challa will probably pay off dividends in like phase 6 or 7 when they can go "hey we have a boy black panther again!"
This review is the hottest take
shuri's acting was so amazing
I feel like the consensus for this movie is that there has to be something very wrong with it, even though no one can actually agree on what it is. In my opinion it was enjoyable from start to finish, and it was definitely the best in phase 4.
If Angela Bassat was younger then she would’ve been perfect to entirely carry the movie.
She already did most of the heavy lifting in the movie, but we needed someone to physically take on Namor at the end and I felt Letitia becoming the focus and having to be Namors foil just didn’t work.
Part of me wished they gave us 2 female black panthers in Queen Ramonda and Shuri then have the queen die helping Shuri against Namor because Shuri lacks the combat skills to hold her own. That way Shuri has somewhere to grow from, needs to be helped to win. Given Shuri being motivated by anger I think it would’ve been great for her to actually get owned as the panther and really have to think about what it means to be both leader and protector of wakanda.
Can't have a woman ever fail at anything.
I like this comment
I like the idea of this, but then you have people like the first reply here who would have a field day being sexist about it.
A female hero beats the bad guy on her own:
"Oh women can't fail at anything, they have to always be stronger/smarter than the guys."
A female hero needs help from other women to beat the bad guy:
"Oh 'women power' wins the day, but it still takes 2 women to equal 1 man."
A female hero needs help from a man to beat the bad guy:
"Oh female heroes are so weak they need a man to step in for them to actually win."
You can't really win, so you might as well pick the one that is most neutral, and yet will probably piss them off the most; that they can hold their own weight.
I feel like the movie did do enough teamwork and showing that Shuri is still new if you think about it. Namor was only brought down because her and Riri built the trapped airship to contain and cook him long enough to weaken him, then take him to the desert. Namor literally had her impaled on his spear and defeated, but he had to leave the fight or suffocate.
She is still very much weaker than him and has room to grow, but it was the combined planning as well as her own force of will to pull herself off the spear and keep fighting that won the day.
@@GeneralTaco155555a excellently put. It is tiresome to see blatant sexism for sure
the credits scene where T'Challa have a secret son, feels like a way disney saying another T'Challa will take over in future movies
I feel like this movie could've been much better if one of the Dora Milaje was the new Black Panther, specifically Danai Gurira.
Shuri is just a girl, while the Dora Milaje are actual warriors
I personally love Namor and everithing about him and his city
I was routing for the talokan in the entire of the movie
But I agree the film have some meh moments
But overal 8/10
Honestly I'd love to see a solo Namor movie
@@mickeymouse7726 please stop overworking cgi and vfx workers. Please stop putting out so many projects back to back , please provide sufficient time to them so that the projects quality increases , thank you and F U .
Solid 8/10
There's a 3h15m version of this movie on a cutting room floor somewhere, and it has all those dialogue cuts they made in the movie intact 😭
Are we going to talk about the soundtrack?