Good v. Bad Verdi Singing | Soprani 1/2 (Ponselle, Callas, Nilsson, etc. v. Netrebko, Damrau, etc.)
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- Опубликовано: 18 дек 2024
- Good examples are: Rosa Ponselle, Anita Cerquetti, Maria Callas, Irina Arkhipova, Birgit Nilsson, Sylvia Sass, Grace Bumbry, Leyla Gencer, Elena Obratzsova.
Bad examples are: Anna Netrebko, Diana Damrau, Elina Garanca, Christa Ludwig, Marilyn Horne
This is not really about old school vs. new school since some of the "bad" examples are older than/the same age as the "good" examples. It is mainly about open (pharyngeal) singing vs. restricted singing in the mask (Damrau, Horne, Ludwig) or throaty singing (Netrebko, Garanca), or some combination of both.
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I'm a light lyric soprano. I stick with Mozart and Rossini. Not every classically trained voice is meant to sing opera. I love singing art songs in other languages, oratorio, sacred music, operetta, etc. It's as if everyone wants to sing opera and also seeing and hearing 7 year olds is nothing but a set up to destroy the voice before they even get the chance to mature..
Our voices are gifts and they should be treated with care.. I always say that anyone can sing but have realistic expectations and keep it fun! My 1 1/2 cents..
Peace
very well said! I agree! :)
It’s ambition and boredom I think that get the best of these modern singers…to be fair, most opera roles for light lyric sopranos tend to be kind of the same old stuff dramatically; however, though if one digs in more clearly, the ingenue roles can have just as much to offer in dramatic/character complexity (Pamina in the magic flute for example is this, even though she’s a light lyric soprano, she doesn’t always fit the mode of an ingenue well).
There are roles however written with kids and vocal limitations of their light voices in mind in operas; for example, pick a Britten opera. ANY Britten opera. There are probably a bunch of roles written with kids in mind in them; some of them even have leading roles.
O and U vowels only
In my opinion it's a lack of patience and discipline. They want to be great without that much effort.
I would think you did like Cecilia bartoli. She was discovered by ppl of the classical music industry to sing Mozart and rossini. I love rossini & strongly like Mozart.
I can't get over that "trill" from Damrau. Like what even was that??
Sounded like a weird car alarm
Are you talking about 2:16? That sounds like something I'd make by accident on one of my synthesizers.
Povero Verdi😢
Sounded very forced didn't it?
Una porcheria ...
The training of bigger voice types is a lost art. We are afraid to train big voices. Afraid of chest resonance, which as others have said is what gives the voice power and health
I couldn’t agree with you more! It’s very rare to find a good voice teacher in the world. They are all afraid of the chest resonance which in my opinion is what feeds head voice and keeps the voice healthy.
Finaly someone finally said it
@@lutandomhlalase4416 There's a lot of people that say this, but sadly so few are listening or paying attention.
Correct BUT the pupils are not humble for music & interested in real singing ! They search for TV/RUclipscareers & 🎤 singing /voiceuse like popsinging & reduced Hollywood or Sadolin technique ! That’s the truth !
@@artdanks4846 That because youtube comment section teachers do not know much about singing either.
What fucking chest Resonance...from scientific point of view there is no Resonance in the chest..it is in your mouth and larynx..and nose ..not under the Vokal chords
Anna and Diana must have a personal grudge against Verdi bc how on earth does one sound like an alien ray gun, and the other sound like she’s just run the 100 meter sprint 💀
LOL perfect description
Very bad tecnic!
Agreed, Anna in my opinion is very overrated and at times seems to be screaming
It seems more like some people have a personal grudge against Anna and Diana. Some "opera fans" seem to have a greater passion for bashing singers than for opera itself. It's pathetic and tiresome.
The aliens apparently like Squillo sound more than athletes :)
Callas in 1949 nailing Abigaille. Verdi’s queen.
Leyla Gencer the best!
@@correasilvio2010 Incorrect
All the bad singers are singing with a significant amount of heaviness. Their voice doesn’t flow like the good singers do, to the point that the bad singers sound overdone and slow because of how heavy it is. The good voice needs to soar and fill the throat and mouth, all while resonating in the chest and head. And the good singers are in control so that when they sing the vibrato doesn’t take away from the performance or the pitch. Like Lilli Lehmann says, the breath should not be forced forward but flow outward in a constant state. In other terms, they’re pushing.
That is because Damrau has always been a light lyric who has pushed. Now the voice is in shreds and she hides behind lower lyric soprano repertoire hoping it won’t show how messed up her voice is. Netrebko has always been a lyric soprano and she just over sings and woods to fake a spinto repertoire.
@@orion8835 Imo Netrebko is also a light-lyric soprano. Also, Damrau doesn't very often sing heavier roles, but Netrebko does, unfortunately.
to me the bad ones all sound like they have to much air in the voice making it not as solid a sound. more like pop singers trying to sound operatic. whereas those that actually sound like opera singers paradoxically sound like they’re not trying to imitate anybody but JUST singing
As a conductor, it seems to me that Netrebko learns parts without scores, on ear. She sings incorrect rhythms and pitch. Can anybody stop this?….
Only this piece?
Does anyone care?
@@orientaldagger6920no
Netrebko has been fooling a lot of people for a long time; a case of eye appeal and hype over real vocal or musical skill
The orchestras are tuned to different notes. Modern orchestras tune higher. And to be difficult, different ones tune to different frequencies.
Actually most operas look for the best looking singers rather than the most melodious voices, sad but true.
You are kidding. Look at all those obese whales that sing Bruennhilde and Sieglinde.
yes you are right!
Obviously wrong, all the singers are overweight, old for their roles and/or plain looking. They're not more attractive now than they were back then.
Look at the Met casts these days. Horrible singers…
Nowadays, yes. Previously, they were largely selected for outstanding talent and training.
This really highlights just how difficult Verdi is to get right, and what it sounds like when it goes so wrong!
No the new singers are not trained well and have poor techniques
2:24 What the hell is that sound, police siren?
haha,you are right!
May I suggest, Monserrat Caballe? She may bring a smile to you and a heart lifted to many stunned moments of pleasure. She was, in my opinion, the bella voce that one is taken to a transcendent experience. Thank you for the post...
Love Caballe! a great voice! :D
@@francisca1378 lol. But how her "singing" at the end of career? Lets forget? Baskov, singing with a freak baritono mercury, "operatic" singing. Sure?
@@Monnarchmonnarchy I've seen you everywhere, insulting everyone who has made little mistake in singing. Caballe was great and that's it: it is absolutely natural to not be in the greatest shape when you old.
@@Monnarchmonnarchy first Cabellé made a courier for herself that last decades. You cannot even hold a match to her you basic, classless, tasteless trollop. Secondly she was in her 80's so her body could not support her voice the same way it did years prior, if you are half as compitent an artist , wait calling you an artist would be making you out to be more intelligent than actually are so I'll end it there.
Caballé was a perpetual scooper with an ugly tone. At her best she was good.
Gencer is sublime both in expression and technique. Listen to her pianissimos more carefully.
I am not that well versed in opera, and I am not quite sure what is meant by head voice or chest voice, but what people react to a type of scream in the voices marked red? The voices marked green carry the notes more flowing and sturdy to me.
Absolutely adore this video! Please make more!!!❤
As a person who doesn't know much about music theory or opera, and who usually liked modern opera, I'm mesmerized by the difference. Had I heard any of the older records by itself, I might've been indifferent to them, but comparing them with modern performences side by side you clearly see how much better they sound? It's a matter of the sound quality and not of the voices, because our modern recording devices aren't really adapted to these older records, but how much clearer and less dramatic (and weird) they sound! Amazing...
I think nowadays there's too much vibratto up to the point that you can't hear the right note. And seems all singers sound the same.
“I have encountered three miracles - Enrico Caruso, Tita Ruffo, and Rosa Ponselle...”
Tullio Serafin
A miracle is that you think you can encounter.
That comment was done before he meet Maria Callas. He was actually who gave Callas a chance to start and get famous.
@@lenapires7793 Exactly. How low to use that quote.
An excellent side-by-side example of good and not-so-good (in most cases, bad) soprano singing. I would only take exception with including Sylvia Sass as a good example, considering that her voice crashed and burned very early in her career. And I think it's unfair to compare Obratzsova's Azucena with that of Marilyn Horne... Obratzsova was one of the great Verdi dramatic mezzos of the 20th century, while Marilyn Horne... was not. On the other hand, no one holds up Obratzsova as a great singer of Rossini.
7:27 Is this what they mean by woofing out the notes rather that singing?
yes, exactly that.
2:17 an ambulance siren ?? hahahaha
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
This is my first exposure to "Francisca;" as as composer of operetta, this was enough to get me to quickly subscribe! You, along with Zaizan, are among my mentors on what works and what doesn't work for operatic singers.
(My first operatic mentor was Sir Arthur Sullivan of G&S fame, who taught me the art of setting words to music. No, I'm old but not that old; I studied his documenting on his techniques for setting words to music, and it was a game changer for me.)
Callas had a gift for controlling her vibrato without drifting off the pitch.
She supported the sound! If it’s not supported, vibrato takes over and pitch is all over the place. Like Anastasios Vrenios would say “it’s frosting without the cake”:)
Some of these modern singers- if you didn’t have the orchestra, would you pick out the central note of their vibrato?
Eh, have to disagree here.
yeah not sure what they’re talking about. agree with steve.
Really ! She drifted off pitch almost every time she opened her mouth !
Thanks for the analysis. It was most enlightening.
I no longer attend operas because the modern singing style for a darker tone and "screamier" style does not appeal to me, and I find regietheater ridiculous.
Thanks so much for these comparisons. They are teaching my ear to be more discerning and truly appreciate how truly great some singers really are. (And how much over-rated the lesser ones are!) More please?
As a whole, Christa Ludwig does not belong to the bad group
as a whole, sure. but on that piece I think she screams on the high notes, spreads her mouth - to me that is bad technique, but she definitely isn't as bad as many of the others. And she does have good moments in other parts of her repertoire.
@@francisca1378 what do you mean "as bad" lol she is sensational in everything
@@joseabraham8038 i mean she screams on the high notes. not as bad as some other singers, but definitely not good.
She's not good at Verdi tho.
@@francisca1378 But, interestingly enough, she does a pretty good Marschallin.
Excellent video, both informative and highly amusing - I burst out laughing more than once! Bless them all - fortunately in this age of technology, one can be selective.
I'm a full lyric soprano and I prefer to stick with the lyric roles (Madame Butterfly, Mimi, Lauretta, Pamina, Suzel etc), very less than few spinto roles (Manon Lescaut, Adriana Lecouver, Maddalena, Santuzza etc) and two Wagnerian roles (Elizabeth and Elsa).
I've heard many lyric sopranos singing Violetta but I prefer not to meddle around with her cause my voice isn't, what to say, flexible
1 Rosa Ponselle = 30 Netrebko e ancora ….
Questo video è una delle prove per quale ragione purtroppo è morta l’arte lirica vera.
Fatto tristissimo.
Grandissimo video !
Chapeau bas !
il vecchio
Rosa Ponselle oggi la fischieremmo in teatro. Aveva un pessimo registro acuto di soli suoni fissi
@@babbonatale9362
Non dubito che il pubblico come lei oggi fischierebbe La Ponselle in teatro …
Negli ultimi anni il pubblico moderno come lei è stato celebre in tutto Universo per il suo gusto molto raffinato nella materia…
Parlando del ‘pessimo’ registro acuto di soli suoni fissi mi dica per favore quando e dove ha sentita La Ponselle dal vivo ?!…
I bambini sanno benissimo che una registrazione non può essere una testimonianza valida per la bellezza artistica di una voce lirica .
Le registrazioni che i giovani amate tantissimo venerate sono solo una illusione, un prodotto finale che dipende dei tantissimi fattori che purtroppo non hanno niente a vedere con l’ambiente artistico / acustico/ in un teatro lirico vero durante una recita.
Mi sorprende tantissimo anche il fatto che fin oggi di lei non sapeva che le registrazioni Mono della Ponselle in realtà sono di pessima qualità e non possono essere considerati come una testimonianza vera della bellezza divina della sua voce.
Incredibile ma vero.
il vecchio
PS
Per la sua informazione dal vivo La Ponselle aveva una voce unica nella sua bellezza.
La prova ?
Le parole dei suoi colleghi tutti dei cantanti lirici noti di quest’epoca.
Normalmente una persona intelligente cerca d’informarsi e riflettere prima di parlare…
Ogni tecnico del suono sa benissimo che non esiste una registrazione che può essere una testimonianza vera della bellezza unica della voce lirica.
Nelle registrazioni Mono e quelle Stereo purtroppo manca una cosa sola - l’ambiente acustico vero in un teatro lirico durante una rappresentazione.
Non sapeva prima questo fatto?!
Ciao
Mi racconti lei della voce della Ponselle... Visto che l'ha ascoltata
@@babbonatale9362
Non hai capito ancora ?!
Avevo letto e sentito degli anni 1958-60 tantissime testimonianze
dei colleghi della Ponselle.
Per esempio mi ricordo ancora i racconti e le parole della Riccardi
che a volte mi diceva :
- Mio caro , dal vivo tre Callas non valevano una Rosa Ponselle.
Ma visto che hai cantata con Gigli, Merli, Pertile, Masini e sai tutto…
Temo che prima di sparare delle sentenze una persona intelligente cerca di informarsi…
Per esempio come lo facevo io 65 anni fa…
Ero giovane e curioso di conoscere La Verità dei Grandi cantanti che appartenevano al passato glorioso.
Da anni i giovani in gran parte parlate per dire cosa ?
Niente.
Proprio com’è il tuo ultimo commento.
il vecchio
A parte che il valore di un cantante lirico non si misura a peso vocale... Non siamo al mercato o peggio al canile.
La Ponselle aveva acuti a fischietto e lo posso dire sulla base delle registrazioni. Non mi dica che ciò dipende dalla qualità delle registrazioni perché si sentono centri sontuosi e rotondi e quindi la qualità della registrazione qui viene da lei invocata a sproposito. La fissità degli acuti era un dato di fatto documentato di quella pessima scuola di canto, per fortuna perduta, che lei ed altri celebrano tanto solo per dare lustro a se stessi come interpreti o continuatori di quella stessa scuola
it is very clear that the era of good opera is very close to an end if it hasn't ended yet. today there are very few singers who use the right technique. this may be the main reason why people stopped listening to opera as they did very long ago.
They stopped?
@@username45739 most of them yes
Then who are all the people in the audiences? Still hard to get tickets sometimes. I love going to the opera, and I enjoy listening to all our wonderful, modern singers.
@@Feisenbach it's obvious that any hip hop singer unfortunately has many more listeners than opera singers do. Opera is dead in the water. According to billboard/Nielsen, classical music had an overall 1% share of the market in 2019, or 12th out of 12 genres. This is the least popular music genre well behind the top four genres: R&B/hip-hop, rock & roll, pop, country, and even behind children’s music. And opera is just a tiny niche within classical music.
@@nelsonferreirauk Opera will never be able to compete with pop music when it comes to the number of listeners. But that's a totally different discussion. That has nothing to do with modern singing technique.
This is very interesting. (1) Rosa Ponselle was a phenomenal artist with what I would call a "once in a century" voice (to paraphrase Toscanini in reference to another voice) and who was admired by Callas. (2) Anita Cerquetti was a great vocal artist who retired at 30! (3) Leyla Gencer, another great vocalist, seems not to have received the recognition she deserved. (4) When I first listened to Elena Obratzsova, on a recording of "The Maid of Orleans," I was astonished at her voice. Even now I'm bereft of words.
Damrau was good for a couple of years, then the over-singing and poor technique took over - jaw and tongue wobble, flapping vibrato, poor integration of registers - it all went wrong very quickly.
Wow-Damrau sounds like Florence Foster Jenkins! What is the sound of Verdi sung in Pig Latin.
@@ian1856 until the Met cancels her contract! Then she is Diana Doomedrau!
I swear she cared more about her touches to the piece than vocal emission
@@Mimi-ey5ej Do NOT talk about her like that! She has a wonderful voice and technique, great acting skills and is a very nice person! If you don't like her, that's ok, but insulting her and making fun of her online is insolence and pathetic! Just think about it and mind your own business!
@@ladygloria9494 Damrau is so bad on every level, are you deaf and blind?
Diana Damrau reminds me of Meryl Streep's performance as Florence Foster Jenkins. It's beyond comic. Thanks for including Callas here. It's nice to be reminded that she really did have good years; few though they were. Nilsson and Bumbry are just stunning! It is said that Nilsson could pin the audience to the backs of their seats. Thanks for a great post.
Damrau technique is Austrian it’s a very tight technique.
@@SingerGeneLeonard Damrau was great in her early years in coloratura roles but she has damaged her voice by singing roles too heavy for her ...
Die Damrau ist einfach lächerlich als Sängerin und noch lächerlicher als Schauspielerin, noch dazu hat sie keine Ahnung was LEGATO bedeutet.
Many are waking up to the truth about Damrau and Netrebko. Finally! Both had vocal problems early on that just got worse.
@@davidalbro2009 Thank God people are starting to see that!! From the start they were both extremely overrated! Another one that's becoming more and more popular for no good reason is Sandra Radvanovsky! I don't know how or why she's become such a big name!
La Netrebko, Damrau, Garanca...sono le tipiche voci odierne...la differenza vocale la si sente molto rispetto ai grandi cantanti del passato...
What is wrong with Netrebko's Head?!? It never stops moving
The perceived challenges in modern recordings of large operatic voices likely stem not from differences in vocal technique-since American sopranos, for example, follow several distinct and refined schools-but rather from the inherent differences between analog and digital microphones. Analog microphones capture continuous waveforms, preserving subtle overtones and harmonic richness without the constraints of digital sampling. In contrast, digital microphones convert sound into discrete samples, restricted by sampling rates (e.g., 44.1 kHz) and filtered through anti-aliasing algorithms that reduce high-frequency content. This process introduces quantization errors that can compromise the depth and richness of powerful voices, particularly under extreme dynamics where clipping or compression may occur. Even advanced 24-bit recording systems cannot fully recover the nuances and harmonics lost during digitization. Vintage analog models, like the Neumann U47 or RCA ribbon microphones, offered smoother, more natural frequency responses, better capturing the tonal complexity essential to dramatic voices. The lack of big voices also is easily attributed on recordings, as initial live auditions are things of the past nowadays. ALl require digital submissions (read - LOSS OF VOICE QUALITY IN RECORDIG DUE TO SAMPLING + LOSSY COMPRESSION)
This is entirely meaningless. There are no such things as analog and digital microphone, all microphones are analog. It's the recording equipment that's digital. Every single example you're hearing here is a digital recording, by definition. If digital caused a loss of information (it's the opposite, it's perfectly transparent), then all those recordings would seem equally faulty to you. It is biologically impossible to hear a difference in sampling rates between 44.1kHz or 96 or aliasing at this sampling rate. I suggest you give it a try in a blind test. Most people can't even differentiate an MP3 and a 16bit .flac.
The truth is that it's the opposite. These old recordings methods obviously capture way less information. They're notoriously dark, they don't capture very high frequencies. Just run them through an equalizer. What people like in old recording precisely is the fact that they distort the sound. No modern recording of a singer is ever ‘clipping’, unless done by an amateur. Meanwhile, all these old recordings are distorting constantly. And people like that sound.
@@spiritnone2818 The first claim you made was that there are no analog vs digital Microphones - "all microphones are analog." Older microphones without built-in A/D (analog-to-digital) converters emit an analog waveform, a continuous representation of the sound. These analog microphones can be recorded onto analog devices or digitized later. This process offers flexibility, as you can apply filters, adjust sampling rates, or enhance the sound in post-processing.
In contrast, modern digital microphones (like those in smartphones) include an internal A/D converter, digitizing the signal immediately. Once this step occurs, you're limited to the sampling rate, bit depth, and built-in processing of the device. Any subsequent processing (filters, noise reduction, etc.) operates on an already quantized digital signal, meaning information may already be lost.
@@spiritnone2818 While you are right that analog systems naturally enhance recordings through harmonic distortion, gentle compression, and midrange emphasis, the challenges for dramatic voices in modern digital recording are indeed more profound. Built-in ADCs in digital microphones lack the dynamic range needed for the extreme loudness and richness of dramatic voices. Anti-aliasing filters and fixed ADC parameters further exacerbate the problem by flattening transients and losing the vibrancy of high notes or rapid vocal shifts... as to the argument that no recording is ever clipping, perhaps you do not have access to the dramatic coloratura in person... but I do, therefore I respectfully disagree. These voices are very rare. Extremely rare indeed. Maria Callas, Sylvia Sass, and Leyla Gencer are old dramatic coloraturas in this recording; the rest are dramatic sopranos and mezzos, and for the new ones - maybe Damrau is a coloratura who is, for some reason, declared as "bad". Please count how many times the "fans" supposedly, mention alarm for her thrill - whereas she does not sound ANYTHING like that, it is the mic that did the sound "clean" and "transparent", stripped it off frequencies and made it similar to the tuning fork sound. The other bad ones are predominantly lyrics with the addition of Damrau and Horne but recorded later, which is why I make this point; it is simply my opinion. It does not require such a blatant dismissal from you that made me go into detail of engineering and signal theory. You may still disagree; you have First Amendment rights, as we all do, but it will not dismiss the point that pretty much ALL dramatic voices will lose in competition in digital recordings even though they are very rich and don't compare to lyrics in person. Poor Anna and Elina are forced into dramatic rep and performing in houses that are too big for them, but they get paid and adored for different things - not for the good or bad vocalization. Given that the agents and theaters allow them into these roles and the public loves them and makes money for the theaters, I guess they do the best they can under the circumstances. When they are in their rep, they are absolutely perfect - I heard Netrebko in Elisier and songs in LA - and it was a different voice from the recordings. Take her earlier recordings with the non-digital mics and in her rep - they are VERY GOOD examples of singing AND acting..
Dear "Francisca", it is really a huge work done by you this comparison. I would NOT be so much critically "good versus bad", because I am convinced that all the singers are giving their (she, he) best. Verdi is an extra-hard-touchstone for every singers. Verdi is stratospheric. Veri few can be good at Verdi. But I have respect for those who are singing Verdi, also in the case, if they are not so excellent, as our darlings. Best greetings from Vienna by a Renata-admirer.
The we can call it "excellent" vs "kk" 😀
Which Renata, Scotto or Tebaldi?
@@allenjones3130 Dear Allen, Tebaldi, as we celebrated 2022 her remembering of the 100, I wrote much comments to different RUclips records. As I wrote, I am a Retata Tebaldi admirer. No evening for me without Rentata Tebaldi and Franco Corelli. RUclips is more phantastic as the hundreds and hundreds of different recordings like CD.
7:26 - 7:31 cannot hold my laughter 🤭🤣
So let's try to sing like Anna!
You don't realize how singing opera hard is...
I've always thought her voice sounds so weird.
@@wiktoriaboron I know but this doesn't mean running away to the easier way of singing .
@@wiktoriaboron You do realize that singing Macbeth without a good technique will harm your voice right ? The way Anna sung that part is harmful. Try taking a look at other soprano such as Shirley Verrett and Saiao Hernandez singing that part and you will know what I mean. (Oh, by the way, by taking a look I mean look at the videos )
To dfgh 234 - First of all you’re incorrect, secondly you’re mean-spirited. Such mockery says more about you than Anna.
Since I’ve been reading opera comments there seem to be more and more uneducated elitism, self-appointed critics.
You’re free to your opinion, thus free to display your ignorance. Still such vile condemnation reveals your bitter world-view and petty insecurities.
The beauty of opera are the many interpretations. Each of the opera stars that reach this level have something to offer. Much opinion is subjective.
They do not deserve mockery and ridicule.
2:23 sounds like an ambulance coming down the street! 😂 🚨 🚑
Help, I can't unhear this now AHAAHHAHAAHHA
Thanks for your video. I agree with most of your judgments, disagree with a few. I don’t think that good/bad is the best way of describing what you are trying to get at though. Some of the ‘bad’ examples you note are so much ‘bad’ as they are just example of singers singing at the limits of what they ought to singing (or singing past them). For example, I don’t think that you can really ever call Christa Ludwig bad. Certainly, she sang things that were out of her fach (and that accounts for why she spreads a bit and omits some consonants in the Macbeth excerpts here), but that’s different from ‘singing poorly,’ if you get what I mean. In her case, the fact that she could get through demanding dramatic soprano roles that were sometimes by her own admission too high for her (e.g., Fidelio, Dyer’s wife) as well as she did without destroying her voice is a testament to her technique and vocal intelligence. (Also note that she learned Lady Macbeth under the guidance of Zinka Milanov.)
It’s interesting however that Gencer is on your good list. I often find her exciting, and she sounds good here as Gilda. But she pushed a whole lot during her career when singing dramatic music (she’s firmly on the lyric side), and her voice was often disjointed and not homogeneous in colour.
The good bad division is really supposed to apply not to the person, but to the specific example of their singing. That said, I really don't find Ludwig an example of good singing generally - that doesn't mean though she is as bad overall as someone like Netrebko. Certainly, there are some recordings of her that sound good, but I find most of her singing exemplifies … just screaming. It is far from a beautiful tone… so people on youtube, i don't know, seem to like her because she is loud and actually projects her voice, and that is a virtue compared to modern singers. But it isn't a beautiful sound that she is making, so that is indicative of poor technique. Compared to the many great mezzos who also have a beautiful tone, there is clearly something wrong with what Ludwig is doing.
The plain fact is, if you are spreading your mouth and screaming, you are singing poorly.
And there is really no reason why she should be so screamy on the Lady Macbeth aria - it is fine for a mezzo's range, so singing out of her fach isn't really a good excuse (lots of mezzo's have sung Norma transposed only slightly down! or think about Eboli in don Carlo, that is just as "high" of a part as lady Macbeth).
To be honest, I think similarly of Callas (sorry!). I think there are great recordings of her, especially early ones, and I used her in the video as a good example, but there are also a lot of "screamy" recordings.
As for Gencer, that is interesting. I think the opposite, she is a heavier voice who kind restricts too much on certain parts. For example, I think her una macchia is better than her tacea la notte, she is more open on the heavier pieces. But again, she is another example of someone I don't think is a perfect singer, but there are some really fantastic recordings of her. Lots of examples like that.
@@francisca1378 I can’t agree with you about Ludwig, but that’s ok! I don’t think one can say her technique was poor; a different aesthetic, maybe. She did sometimes push (she writes in her book that Milanov told her to stop pushing when they met for some coaching sessions). I’d recommend her in lieder generally, as well as Mozart, Wagner, and Strauss. Her Ortrud, Venus, Brangaene, Waltraute, Fricka, and Kundry are divine. Verdi in generally wasn’t a good fit for her; Amneris, Azucena, and Eboli were too heavy for her, which she freely admits. Lady Macbeth is surely on the high side for a mezzo! The tessitura is higher than Eboli to my knowledge. I know Verrett and Bumbry sing Macbeth well (especially Verrett), but they were more falcons.
As for Callas (who I will openly admit is my preference), her voice simply got knocked out of alignment. Probably a combination of weight loss that was too rapid, wild repertory choices, and pushing as time went along and as her vocal placement became less consistent and more nasal. No such problems early on! I think she found it harder and harder to cover in the upper passaggio as time went on, which accounts for some of the shrillness particularly around F#/G/Ab/A. My sense is that she was obviously an extremely talented singer, but one whose technique was more intuitive than the product of knowledge. Once her body changed, she couldn’t adjust her technique accordingly.
I think Gencer is really really good in Trovatore actually. The 1957 RAI recording, that is. Her Lady Macbeth is on the light side for my tastes, but she performed that with Taddei around 1960, which was still early. As the 1960s progressed, she sang heavier and heavier stuff (Aida, Norma, Roberto Devereux, even Gioconda), but it was all so pushed, and the vocal colour was rather inconsistent. I don’t think she would have constricted nearly as much had she been born to sing those roles. (But of course, then she would pull of a beautiful pianissimo out of nowhere.) Interestingly, in interviews she did say that the ‘lyric Gencer’ was better than the ‘dramatic Gencer’, so I guess it was a choice she made. Not unlike Scotto. In terms of vocal weight, I’d put Gencer somewhere close to Zeani, although I do think that Zeani was better overall.
@@ER1CwC yea, I just… never like Ludwig, but different tastes, I guess! She is on one of the Don Giovanni recordings I have… and I just can't stand her on it, so harsh! But she is far from a really, really bad singer like modern opera singers! And I do like her in some Strauss and Wagner (random…) Milanov sounds like she was right! And that aria only hits a b flat (I think in the intro it passes to a quick C), but it doesn't hold the B flat, I think it is an A flat that is held, so that shouldn't be a problem for a mezzo. The general place where the aria stays for the main part is fairly low. Meanwhile Eboli holds a B natural and two B flats. But anyway, if Ludwig couldn't do it without making is sound beautiful she should have just skipped it (like Obratzsova was smart never to try it, even though she had a fairly solid B)
I also agree with what Milanov says about Callas. And I have a similar take on it as you do, that she had a great voice that just got messed up by a number of different factors, which is a real shame. And I agree she definitely had a more "intuitive" knowledge - that is a good way to understand it. It is like she just knew how to make a really beautiful sound, but then couldn't adapt to changes in her body/repertoire. The weight loss I'm sure was a huge change… Weight loss issue aside, I always think she should have stayed in slightly lighter repertoire, so some Verdi parts (but not dramatic parts like Elisabetta or Lady Macbeth… or Puccini roles like Turandot), combined with parts that show off her gorgeous high notes and coloratura like Anna Bolena, Lucia, Norma, etc. That would have been more suited to her voice and would have probably kept her in better shape.
Zeani is definitely more consistent, and I can see why you would compare the two. I do love Leyla Gencer though because she gives so much to the performance, but she is definitely not my idea of a perfect singer - and I like her a lot better than Scotto. Scotto is really a lyric who should stay away from dramatic roles, but I think Gencer did a fine job with a lot of them, even though maybe not absolutely perfect. I have a bootleg recording of her in Don Carlo (with Ghiaurov) and it is just so exciting! One of my favourites! It is interesting that you think her Lady is light. I always find her richer than other singers (like Callas, or even Souliotis whom I also really like in the part), but definitely not as rich as a mezzo singing the part. I never am really happy with a Lady Macbeth, the singer always seems either too light in the part or too screamy. I think I listen to Souliotis most often as my go-to, but it is still not my "ideal." I do really like Verrett's Lady Macbeth, too, and Bumbry's is definitely okay.
@@francisca1378 Listen to Ludwig in Tannhauser; see what you think. As I said, Eboli wasn’t a great role for her. She actually had a vocal crisis with it singing it with Karajan and quickly dropped it. Elvira is a soprano role (although the mezzos transpose the Mi tradi); it’s a matter of where the tessitura lies. I like her in it though, so maybe it’s just a taste thing! By Mozart, I meant Dorabella and Cherubino.
I think one of the issues with Callas in terms of rep was twofold. First, her voice was unconventional, so she had to sing roles that were too heavy (e.g., Turandot, perhaps Gioconda), and that didn’t play to her strengths (e.g., verismo, a lot of Puccini actually). Although it is important to note that her voice was much heavier at the beginning; as time went on, it lightened and shrank, but she sang increasingly heavily. Second, much of her bread-and-butter repertory, which I would say was dramatic Rossini/Donizetti/Bellini and early-middle Verdi (including Lady Macbeth - have you heard her live recording? I’d argue that she was a perfect fit...), was not in the standard repertory. So she had to sing other things that she wouldn’t have otherwise sung or that she didn’t like anyways (Puccini). I think had she had the chance, she would’ve focused on bel canto, early-mid Verdi, and actually late classical-early romantic music like Cherubini, Spontini, and Gluck. But she had to fight just to get things like Anna Bolena and Pirata performed, let alone performed regularly. Certainly, she would have traded recordings of Bolena and Pirata for all of those Puccini records which she never even considered to sing onstage. I can’t imagine that she wouldn’t have preferred to explore those Donizetti queens and serious parts like Lucrezia Borgia over singing stuff like Chenier and Fedora.
I prefer Scotto to Gencer generally. Scotto was better musically and had a more consistent lower and middle register, although yes the upper register could be strident. I think BOTH were lyric singers who pushed to sing dramatic roles! I think the pressures manifested themselves differently due to the different qualities of their voice. Scotto’s voice always had edge to it, which explains why the voice became increasingly strident. Gencer’s didn’t have that edge, but when pushed it too lost quality and became equally (I’m thinking of her in Aida and Norma) - it’s just not as noticeable because it doesn’t have that edge. It’s similar to how Caballe’s voice too often lost quality and was squally when pushed, but was never ‘strident’ because it was a softer-grained voice. Do you follow? Both were exciting singers and excellent in the proper repertory. (I’d vouch for Scotto’s Adina, Sonnambula, Lucia, Gilda, and Traviata any day.)
For Macbeth, I’d go with Callas (again, check out the live recording from 1952), Verrett, and Rysanek. Gwyneth Jones was excellent too in it, although she might not be to your tastes. Suliotis was a bit hit or miss. I love Nilsson, but her voice was not the most flexible, and Lady Macbeth has substantial coloratura passages.
@@ER1CwC I'm not the biggest Wagner fan, so I'll have to check her out in Wagner and maybe she does better there.
I agree with your assessment of Callas, except I really don't like her Lady Macbeth… I don't know, it sounds too light/youthful of a voice. It sounds like a little girl singing the part! But I agree generally, she kind of just sang the wrong roles early on and it messed up her voice - that is basically what Milanov said about her.
I really, really don't like Scotto, because she sings in the mask. I actually made a video about her poor technique! Gencer, with all her flaws, and the issue of what voice type she is aside, generally sings with good technique - but Scotto is just really bad technique. I agree though about Caballe, another voice I think sang too many dramatic roles. I also am not crazy about Nilsson's Lady Macbeth, but I still do enjoy listening to it! Can't really ever complain about Nilsson!
It's almost not fair to compare Nilsson to anyone; she blows everyone away.
Lmao what do you mean? Her Lady Macbeth is shit. Weak low register, no trills, and she has no coloratura...
Not in beauty of tone. She had her best roles. In Wagner there were better ones.
@@RichardWagner-hi4zn Did the second punctuation mark end up in the wrong place there? :)
@@Bravilor Think again, Watson
@@RichardWagner-hi4zn "She had her best roles."? Well, I guess one can't argue that an opera singer have had their best roles. It is one of the sentences of all time.
Ludwig has sung during fifty years; Sass has totally destroyed her voice in ten years...
1:19 I am not sure about "coloratura" more like lirico-spinto imo.
Why the hell is Garanca singing the Eboli dressed in a Dirndl?😱😱😱
The same reason, Netrebko is singing in a cheap nylon nighgown - theatre people think, it is modern and cool. My opera theatre does this sh*t for 30 years: No opera where someone hasn´t a tutu, another a brown soldiers uniform, and someone with a huge neon colured plush onsie...
Netrebko is to me still a lyric soprano she is not even close to spinto. Her sound is all covered or in the back of the throat . When she is not pushing she sounds lovely. I love Garanca but she sounds horrible here.
Netrebko is definitely a lyric or leggero soprano - when she was younger and sang this repertoire she was better (not great, but better).
Garanca is always terrible - woofy, constricted singing. Not a real mezzo either.
People forget that Verdi is rooted in the Belcanto. A Beautiful megaton is the baseline. Not overflowing and thrust. Blooming into a big sound is what Verdi intended. Always BEAUTY! Otherwise Verdi dies on the vine.
Спасибо за Архипову и Образцову! Это космос!
Does anyone have a list of the songs sung in the video? I’d love to listen to them
Good observations. The first bad clips seem core-free and fuzzy. The approach to the low in the first red clip is terrifying, an unfocused mess. Damrau’s off pitch warbling during the trill and the held note was terrifying. I don’t like Damrau, and didn’t understand why before. Is there a name for the kind of “vibrato” which creates a set of pitches that are not supposed to be there?
I think that the problem isn't chest resonance, but how they keep or not the head resonance while si ging with chedt resonance. The bad ones loose, except Damrau, who has only this high resonance, whech makes her voice hard. Im not sure of my english, here, so I hope to be clrar... In other words, one must never loose the mixed voice.
I respect all opinions, but saying that Christa Ludwig and Marilyn Horne are bad singers is a really very extravagant opinion.
Agreed. The only singers that really are...at the very least...not singing appropriate material for their instrument. Garanca sings Cenerentola divinely...but whoever said she should even ATTEMPT Eboli should be fired as a coach. And Netrebko's lack of much of anything except hutzpah and shouting has always made me angry at impresarios who just want pretty and passionate (even fake passionate will do, those who compare her to Callas, should be sent to Dante's lower bolgia's). But her constant and continuous lack of intonation (flat? sharp?--who cares?) after many years as a very famous and top-of-the-heap international star is simply INEXCUSABLE! I can give newbies to grand opera a break, because of jitters or stage fright or being in completely strange surroundings from the practice room, or the small recital with friends and family in attendance. But there is NO EXCUSE (I know, I already said it) for Netrebko's very bad intonation at her level today. Thanks for reading my rant. Crazy opera guy out.
Richtig. Das ist eine Frechheit! Aber nicht nur das ist eine Frechheit! Die Überheblichkeit, wie hier irgendwelche Zwerge über Giganten urteilen, ist jämmerlich.
Und noch etwas. Ich habe die Ludwig damals in Wien live als Lady Macbeth gehört (mit Milnes). Diese Aufführung war absolut grandios!
@@sfbirdclub@sfbirdclub, it does not matter if you have stage fright or are a newbie-if you have a dramatic voice, it will come out dramatic. It might not be in pitch, or they might forget the words, but... Indeed, the piano is hard for dramatic voices, not forte. :) If AN has to constantly push herself to cover the demands of the role and cut through the hundreds of instruments in the orchestra, what kind of intonation or dynamics can we talk about?
One thing about Damrau that I've always appreciated is that, regardless of technique, her acting/dramatic interpretation has always been consistently strong and in tandom with her voice (even coming through in the audio-only examples displayed here). For any singer, if one's truthful, grounded acting leads to _slightly less-than-perfect vocalism_ (ahem, Callas…), it hits me at my emotional core far more than a technically flawless vocal performance from a singer that is in any way detached from the dramatic intent of the work. Many of the singers here and elsewhere have both qualities present in their work (even in the modern age), and they deserve to be respected in both regards.
All of the singers shown here have their strengths in places (even outside of Verdi), so to deem internationally-acclaimed artists as “bad" overall is, in my view, highly irresponsible. For example, Horne's mask singing may be deemed awkward for *some* Verdi roles, but her coloratura work is unsurpassed in bel canto and Baroque repertoire (where I find her mask singing to be oddly appealing and endearing, particularly in her portrayal of trouser roles).
Damrau has always driven me nuts: I can't figure it out. Good actress or no, I cannot get past the vocalism.
Damrau is annoying and she damaged her voice. Her vibrato is now massively wide and she lost her high notes.
Except Callas was at least aware her voice was failing her - in her letters, she talks of how she developed bad habits from the strain and stress of performance, not to mention the clear case of chronic fatigue the poor woman suffered from (she had to take months off just to rest sometimes) and when she felt she couldn't perform to her standard anymore, she stopped, only briefly coming back in the early 70s for a concert tour. And frankly, even her worst performances (such as Norma in Paris in the 60s) eclipse some of the ones I heard from the singers in this video on a technical level alone - better support, much more open, and a clear sense of pitch; all things a musician must strive for, even on their worst days.
Damrau doesn't seem to want to take the hint - she used to have all of the dramatic elements you described, but her intonation was much better, and her vibrato wasn't the whole-step wobble it became. Same for Netrebko - she used to be much better, but then her voice failed her as her technique simply couldn't keep up with the roles she was trying to sing. It's as if they lost the musicality they had in youth.
Being internationally acclaimed doesn't actually mean you're good - you're just acclaimed. I have met phenomenal vocalists who far surpass their colleagues at the Lyric Opera or the Met, but due to politics or sheer dumb luck (mostly politics), the inferior vocalists keep getting the lead roles - name recognition and marketing and all that mess play in, too. I suppose there's also the drastic shift in technique during the 20th Century that could have also led to this decline...but that's speculative.
@@martynasmatutis8284 we only know about callas’s letters because she passed, how do you know that damrau doesn’t have those same concerns? i don’t think it’s fair to try to predict what’s going on in her head, even if you dislike her as a singer.
She compensates her poor vocals with over acting.
Excuse me, what tha aria fron 1:12?
Merce dilette amiche
Along with the issues they have with the heaviness and slowness, Anna Nettebko in particular suffers from lack of enunciation. Joan Sutherland had this issue, which her husband discussed. Her words are too rounded and end up getting swallowed into some abyss.
Damn, you have really good ears! Very helpful, and relieving too!
0:05 What is that aria
I know this comment is from a while ago, but it’s ‘Miserere’ from Il Trovatore.
@@aceofspades8634 Yeay I know....
I love that voice🥰
Why is Christa Ludwig and Marilyn Horne listed in the bad category?? Two of the worlds greatest mezzos!!
both advocate mask singing - but Horne much more. I wouldn't say Ludwig is all around a terrible mezzo, but Horne definitely is.
@@francisca1378 that is differently your opinion but I will say this Horne has had an outstanding career and she is still one of the Biggest names.
@@SingerGeneLeonard famous doesnt mean good…
@@francisca1378 I’m not here to argue ok? Let’s just drop it. Thank you.
@@SingerGeneLeonard You left the comment on my video…… :/
Dame Gwyneth Jones is missing here.
The clips are Annoyingly short and so cut up it's impossible to tell what's going on. Got me all Crazy trying to listen .😱
3:53 I thought he holds him not to fall down)
Netrebko is NO dramatic soprano not even Spinto!!!!
She is if anything a lyric!!!!!
She is a lyric
Una lirica muy muy subdesarrollada, al lado de una soubrette..
If you listen to her earlier work (90s), which is much better, netrebko actually has the vocal style of a coloratura, but she used such poor technique so often that she ruined her voice.
Rosa Ponselle: “The Real Queen”.
Why are today’s singers so much darker in quality and heavy??? The singers from the past are so much lighter and bel canto! Wow!
the singers in the past are darker…
Actually depends on what kind of voice you looking for and the techniqye they have..
@@theosah2428 most modern singers sing forward in the mask which makes a "brighter" and "lighter" sound (like Damrau) OR they sing with voce ingolata (like Netrebko) which is a "fake dark" sound - it doesn't sound rich/full but unfocused and woofy. People mistake that sound for a real dark, rich sound when it isn't….
I dont like a lot of singers of nowadays, i rather listen to Ingeborg hallstein.. Tettrazzini, Bogna Sokorska, Caballe, June Anderson, Ruth welting.. Luccia Popp...They each sound different but my fav is still Hallstein in her repertoire
@@theosah2428 that's great! But you gotta filter out your choices too. Some old-school singers have the bad technique early on.
What was the aria Rosa Ponselle and Anna Netrebko sang? In 00:04
miserere from il trovatore (its a duet)
The sound got more and more THROATY from the 1990s to now.... The more the eastern Euroepans were employed. And Damrau just went wild..pitch all over the place
Why is not here Montserrat Caballé? Her Leonora or Elena were legendary as it was the current selected???
excellent video, and genuine question, how do they manage to be so successful these modern singers, I just marketing?
I agree with you in disliking Damrau. However - you played Damrau’s extended trill twice, as if to suggest perhaps that it was just an excess of woolly vibrato (which her voice has far too much of it’s true) but it was, in fact, an extended trill, which I believe if I remember correctly is what is written in the score, whereas Callas doesn’t trill it, she just does an extended wobble! I agree that most of your earlier egs, with one or two exceptions, are better, but that is just because they were truly spectacular singers, and perhaps you could find many egs from the top echelons of the profession who were their contemporaries who couldn’t have competed with them any better than your modern egs. Rosa Poncelli and Leyla Gancer (?) are not much cop frankly. Be fair. The pressures today for opera singers to be slim, beautiful, act, and sing on HD are huge, the opportunities to break through are perhaps far fewer for the less well heeled or well connected. For every Callas extract one could find that was excellent, you could have found a Callas extract that was horrific, because she was very inconsistent. Voices are such a matter of taste, and I think you would find that the technique is often not what is in question but rather the raw material, the voice itself. There’s a lot of talk on RUclips commentaries about Bel Canto, but if we could all sing with Bel Canto technique we wouldn’t be farting about on RUclips, would we, which does support the idea that those who can, do, and those who can’t, just criticize! AND It amazes me how many RUclipsrs can condemn a voice as not “bel canto” enough when an equal number hear something entirely different! Because of this subjectivity, the singers we hear in the big houses have made it to the top of the pile, but they aren’t necessarily the best of what’s available! And putting Marilyn Horne in the red zone is unforgivable.
Callas' is a trill, Damrau's is a very, very, very bad attempt at a trill.
I don't think Callas on the whole is a good example of technique - actually that is one of the few recordings of hers I don't hate. But we are comparing good SINGING to bad singing not good SINGERS to bad singers.
I don't think singers nowadays have any more stress on them to be thin and good-looking than in the past. Overall, I think singers nowadays are fatter and uglier than singers in the past.
You don't have to be able to do something perfectly in order to know whether it is done well or not. By that logic, you could never say a novel is great unless you could also write a great novel.
Anyway, I didn't even mention "bel canto" as an idea so that is your issue.
@@francisca1378 “bel canto” is not an “issue” for me at all. I was taught the “bel canto” approach I guess, but it wasn’t labelled as such after the first lesson except on the covers of the exrecises and vocalises I used. It’s only on RUclips that all these pocket critics come out of the woodwork and bang on about bel canto and I bet a fair few of them watched your video. Whoever is doing the singing, it is still a matter of taste ultimately. One person’s idea of bad technique is another person’s idea of perfection, because we respond to music with more than the mind. For what it’s worth I really like Callas’s voice, and yet I know people who can’t bear her singing precisely because of her idiosyncratic technique. I liked the second soprano in your compilation, who I had not heard of previously. And yet although generally I am a great fan of Nilson’s singing, I didn’t like her rendition of the Lady M.
@@Amanda-sf3fx I was just saying, I didn’t use bel canto as a buzz word. You brought it up and are trying to lump me into a category with other fanatics to say that I’m some crazy person because I prefer older technique.
Damrau is not doing a proper trill.
And it is not all just a matter of taste. Everything isn’t subjective. There is an objective good and bad…. Like there is for all things.
@@francisca1378 hi Francisca - I do appreciate your video compilations though I may not necessarily agree with your preferences - I wasn’t trying to lump you in with all the fanatics as you say! I just have found that there is a lot of unnecessary venom out there towards modern singing in particular, and perhaps comparisons between modern recordings and older ones can unintentionally pour fuel on this fire. It’s very hard to get a true impression of some of these earlier, now, in some cases, century old performances, from the recordings that exist of them, and of course tastes were different when Poncielli was singing. Callas is a case in point - on her Lisbon Traviata recording with Krauss she has the highest lightest voice but people who heard her live (which I alas did not) have said that is a very unrepresentative recording. In the other hand I was listening to a recording of Chaliapin from the 1920s the other day, and it was a-ma-zing! (Sure, he might have been singing in Urdu for all the accuracy of his French - but it was a crystal clear recording). Having said that, your clips of Netrebko have only served fuel a discussion I have been having with a friend because they confirm my opinion that she isn’t very good at all LOL! Also, having not sung in anything meaningful myself for over thirty years, I had the chance to do a Verdi Requiem a few years back and went for a singing lesson or two to “refresh” (huh) and the singing teacher wasn’t speaking the same technical language that I had been taught with at all. It was all about the position of the larynx, whereas when I was taught back in the 70s and eighties it was all about the sinuses, the facial position, the placing, the support. Very dispiriting and probably this is why these modern singers don’t have the forward placing that singers used to have.
@@Amanda-sf3fx Yea, but forward placing is the issue - Chaliapin did not sing with forward placing. It sounds like you were taught mask singing in the 70's, which is not the authentic bel canto technique, if we want to say that is even a thing (I'm not trying to be argumentative, I agree there is a lot of bad rhetoric around … and I try to avoid that, while still being able to assess things and have … dialectic going on).
Someone like Marilyn Horne (who sings in the mask and was a kind of advocate for this being the proper technique) is much closer to modern singing than the old technique (think renée fleming, or cecilia bartoli). THAT SAID, Horne, compared to modern singers, has much better technique because… well she has a technique! I think it is the wrong technique, but what singers are doing nowadays is just random… which sounds like that was your experience with the singing teacher recently.
I actually have another video that relates to this on my channel, if you're interested - I talk a bit about the history of different techniques.
ruclips.net/video/RhbtO6612a8/видео.html
The proper technique should be with a low larynx, but with support from the body. Marilyn Horne sings with a higher larynx, as do most contemporary female singers. The vibrato of the note is formed by its resonance in the mask (i.e. in the face/nose area), instead of by the resonance in the throat. When you "sing in the mask" the vibrato is too fast and so the sound is too bright.
BUT most importantly… it makes it that the words are difficult to hear because you cannot properly form vowels by singing this way.
Franco Corelli talks about this, and how the mask technique is wrong - there is an interview on youtube (think its in italian though).
So for me, really perfect female technique would be exemplified by someone like Rosa Ponselle or Kirsten Flagstad or Emmy Destinn, or Tetrazzini, or Cerquetti etc. Of course that doesn't mean they are always on target - no one is perfect. The ones I used in the video, I think are less consistent like Callas or Gencer, etc.
Perfect male technique is Mario del Monaco (especially young… non-shouty del Monaco!) or Nicolai Ghiaurov, or Chaliapin! Or Caruso or … Lauri-Volpi … or Martinelli… or MacNeil… there's a long list! All of whom advocate for low larynx singing, and against mask singing.
The problem with (some) modern singers who are singing with a low larynx (i.e. the ones who don't sing the the mask)… so by this I mean people like Netrebko and Kaufmann… is that they are singing with a low larynx which is fine, but they have no placement in addition to this and they have no support from the body. So the sound is hollow. So they do need a bit of what you say (Flagstad calls it having a bit of a NG sound), but placement in the nasal area is not everything (!) for the voice. It needs to be balanced with a low larynx and support from the body.
What's striking for me here is that the "bad examples" all lack a certain dramatic expressiveness and immediacy. The "bad" examples all can make impressive sounds here and there, but their voices sound too artificially manufactured for there to be any direct connection with the text they're singing. The vowels are all not adequately differentiated, and there is no dramatic immediacy. Everything just sounds like a vocalise. It's the difference between a kind of singing that is dramatically responsive because it's not that far removed from natural declamatory speech, and a kind of singing that is just too manufactured and artificially produced to have any real dramatic charge.
I have to point out - Gencer is a lyric soprano, not a dramatic. Her voice is just very developed, like Muzio’s, Tucci’s or Milanov’s.
I consider Milanov a dramatic soprano, not a lyric. And Gencer sings Lady Macbeth, and I think she is much heavier than, Tucci or Muzio. I would say kind of the opposite, Gencer is a lyric soprano who just has a really well develop top and is very agile. But these categories aren't really… set in stone, and everyone's voice is very different.
@@francisca1378 You are right about fachs, they aren’t set in stone, but now everyone is so undeveloped, fachs are meaningless when once they were useful 🙄
@@xxsaruman82xx87 really! it is weird because half the time you have a naturally heavy voice singing in too light of a repertoire, whereas other times you have a naturally light voice singing too heavy of a repertoire! Everything is confused…
@@francisca1378 Sutherland set that as a precedent. She was a dramatic soprano who was forced to lighten her voice to sing light bel canto roles. When she began singing Norma and even Turandot (in the studio), her technique was too far gone for her to change it. Such a shame. She may have been one of the greatest Wagnerian sopranos of the second-half of the 20the century. After Nilsson, there wasn’t really anyone.
@@xxsaruman82xx87 definitely! sutherland is such a waste… she could have been great! In a way, I feel like Callas did something similar - not that she lightened her technique , the way Sutherland did - but just the idea that she could sing so many different parts in different repertoires, I think helped to lead towards a misunderstanding of voice types.
You can't find unless one good singer in live?
Totally disagree about Marilyn Horne - one of THE great voices.
I'm also a fan of Horne but I don't think she came off well in the selected aria
You hev to clean your ears if you think that this incredibly NASAL, HOARSE and SMALL voice is "great"! Even Horne herself said that she like to sing "ugly"
3.41-3.53 who is she? Perfect!
Irina Arkhipova!
Perché in mezzo alle grandi ci mettete anche la spazzatura?
@Хахалина М В si è bruciata
3.37 , в чем проблема ?
The list of arias if you please ...Thank you
Miserere from il trovatore
Mercè dilette amiche from i vespri sicilaini
O don fatale from don caelo
Vieni t’afretta from Macbeth
Caro nome from rigoletto
Condotta ella era in ceppi from il trovatore
:)
@@francisca1378 Thank you very much...
La Netrebko est épouvantable dans Macbeth!
This can all be overwhelming for the novice (me). I have always adored Anna Moffo, but she is frequently overlooked in these comparisons. Was she not one of the greats?
Of course she was. Unfortunately, I think she was taken for granted during her prime. I've never been disappointed listening to her( Violetta, in particular).
There is one category missing here - GREAT singing (vs. good singing vs. bad singing) - which would contain Tetrazzini, Onegin, Zbrueva, Gadski, Galli-Curci, Delna, Calvé, Kirkby-Lunn, Destinn, Nordica, Matzenauer and alike :)
You’re not wrong. Ponselle is among the best but she occasionally has her tongue blocking her throat
@@stone301 oh, Ponselle became my favourite from the time I wrote that comment! I always liked her full sound, but thought it was not 'as pure' and 'simple' as for example Nordica's. (btw. also Nordica had a wonderful low range and Clara Louise Kellogg even said in her autobiography that Nordica had a mezzo-soprano voice.) There is something 'unique' in Ponselle's voice, but I don't think it's because of any technical flaw, tongue or nose or whatever. (Anything I say, I refer to Ponselle's early recordings, but she did keep a great voice throughout, even if it sounds a bit 'hoarse' in her older age). I think her sound is just perfect, one of the most fully developed voices on every note, every range, every vowel. Maybe I'm exaggerating here, but right now, I really think that what is 'strange' in Ponselle's voice is just a result of resonance used to it's fullest capacity. Some phrases that she sang are inimitable by any other singer, and I don't mean interpretation-wise, just physically. The two registerers are best merged in her voice than in any other voice I've heard. I like the Aida duetts with Martinelli the most, they both sing amazingly. For example Gadski's Aida with Caruso is really good, but when you hear Ponselle... I've listed to her a thousand times, but am still in awe about how this is possible :)
@Gary Allen that's because they were the best of the best
@garyallen8824Modern singers have a really bad development on their foundational skills.
Gee, I wonder why Garanca is so loud compared to the orchestra...
😂 Garanca Is the worst "mezzo" I have ever heard. She has vocal means for a mediocre choir singer, nothing more.
"LOUD"?! When she screams maybe! But even in a small room with only a piano she sounds quite small and weak (although you think first that she sounds "dramatic" and "dark")! I liked her before but I see that she sings totally unhealthy (probably because she's not even a mezzo) and have no strength to sing the REAL mezzo repertoire! Her latest performance of Brahms Alto Rhapsody is really disappointing - it's obvious that it's NOT her real voice...
Leyla Gencer fantastic the best!
Thoughts on Mara Zampieri?
You can also do a Enrico Caruso, Beniamino Gigli, Mario del Monaco, VS 3 Tenors（C-D-P），3 Tenors also sing above the larynx。But Enrico Caruso, Beniamino Gigli, Mario del Monaco, all sang below the vocal cords，3 Tenors cannot fully open the throat, and will not get good, deep breath support.
Anna Netrebko: voz apagada y mate y en los momentos de dramatismo parece que se ahoga la pobre. No veo por donde cogerla, imposible encontrar algo de ella que no me ponga los pelos de punta (para mal).
Diana Damrau: no me parece una soprano mala dentro de cierto repertorio, pero es una voz esencialmente ligera, aquí por cantar algo que le viene grande hace unas coloraturas que parece una cinta estropeada la señora. En el rol de Gilda no es tan terrible, pero lo canta en modo "jilguerillo", lo que no luce tanto como Callas que saca toda la artillería vocal.
Elina Garanca: la comparación es desafortunada, tiene versiones de esa aria mejor templadas en escena (sin ser la no va más de las Eboli ni mucho menos). Además, comparar una grabación de estudio con una actuación en un concierto donde tiene toda la pinta de hacer frío y tener la voz destemplada por cantar donde no debe, pues no le va a hacer justicia. Igualmente, tiene más repertorio donde su voz luce mejor.
Christa Ludwig: ¿qué demonios hace cantando MacBeth si es una mezzo casi contralto? Fuera de la pifia de repertorio, el talento de Christa Ludwig y sus posibilidades vocales en un repertorio adecuado son incuestionables.
Marilyn Horne: no sería la mezzo fetén para papeles de Verdi, pero en el repertorio rossiniano era una fuera de serie.
Damrau como reina de la noche no tiene rival. Además de que es buena actriz. En cierto sentido, la veo como una versión mejorada de la mejor Natalie Dessay
@@mariquilla8891 Lo siento pero discrepo. Esa señora no es una buena actriz. Lo que hace es sobreactuar
@@ASerranobaritone Tienes que tener en cuenta que no es lo mismo actuar en el cine, en el teatro y en la ópera. En el cine, cuando alguna emoción es intensa, tendrás un primer plano de tu rostro. En el teatro, si bien no tienes la ayuda de la cámara, sí que se trata de una representación que generalmente se hace en salas pequeñas, por lo que el público puede verte mejor. La ópera, en cambio, se representa en grandes teatros y parte del público está lejos.
Es por ello que las interpretaciones en el cine son más contenidas y en la opera más exageradas, tienes que llegar al público sin ayuda. Si ves a esta mujer en un vídeo, naturalmente te parecerá que sobreactúa, pero no pensarías así si la vieras en directo (que es para lo que está pensada su interpretación)
Me parece un disparate incluir a dos grandes cantantes como fueron Ludwig y Horne entre "malos ejemplos".
Then you never will see it
Ma perché la Horne viene messa tra i cattivi esempi? Mi sto sforzando di capire ma non ci riesco.......
What is the name of the aria that Leyla Gencer was singing?
‘Caro Nome’ from Rigoletto
Said it before, I'll say it again: Damrau's celebrity is a total mystery. A relentlessly-- aggressively--irritating voice. Massively overrated.
Completely agree. It seems these days that if you're even slightly pretty as a soprano all your flaws can be overlooked (Angel Blue, Nadine Sierra, Sonya Yoncheva). It's so sad to see the decline of what once was a towering, sublime genre.
Couldn't agree more. Oddly, I read a statement on some opera forum where someone described Damraus technique as flawless - this is when you ask yourself: 'What's wrong with me?"
Damrau cranks those notes out...whether they like it or not...
The way she creates the tone is compeltely wrong. Her voice sounds dry and constricted. Like she's trying to sing with a pair of socks in her throat, spoon of sand on her tongue and somebody strangling her with a rope. Yet so many people believe she's the best Queen of the Night ever.
@@maryvallettakeith6146 She was really great in the beginning of her career and it looked like she was going to be the real thing: a lyric coloratura with an unusually pleasing timbre. Unfortunately, her voice declined very quickly.
I agree with you on most, but I prefer Christa Ludwig to Bergit Nilsson. It’s a question of style. Ludwig’s sound is warm and sensuous, whereas Nilsson always sounds like you’ve just interrupted her while she was off milking cows. She was a very blunt instrument.
When you put it like that I can see why Corelli and Nillson were having a competitive who can hold the high note the longest contest during Turnadot.
Wonderful comparison! But why is Ludwig bad?
harsh tone, I mean she is strong so she gets points there, but she always sounds quite … scream-y to me (plus, I cannot make out the words very well so that is not good). She definitely isn't the worst example and she is better on some other recordings, but I wanted to throw in a few older singers so it doesn't seem so like I'm only criticizing modern people. Even a really big/heavy voice should still sound beautiful!
@@francisca1378 I think Scotto or Cossotto would have beeen good bad examples. Both are idolised, but neither old school singers in any sense of the word.
@@xxsaruman82xx87 yes, especially Scotto! Cossotto is really bad too. I always feel bad for her though because she seems… nice, but … yikes her technique is so bad!
@@francisca1378 I agree, Ludwig isn’t suited to this repertoire. I genuinely think she was a dramatic soprano, not a mezzo. She was a great Ortrud, and Leonore.
@@francisca1378 I agree, Ludwig isn’t suited to this repertoire. I genuinely think she was a dramatic soprano, not a mezzo. She was a great Ortrud, and Leonore.
3:20 I like how she may be pretty bright for a mezzo timbre-wise, she still has so much clarity and isn't overly darkened like many mezzos are these days. But to be fair, I actually quite like Elina Garanca, but she has her flaws as demonstrated in this video. She does sing extremely woofy with a depressed larynx and tongue retraction and in many cases her high notes have a wobbly vibrato. Garanca is far from the greatest operatic mezzo-soprano of all time.
These comparisons sealed my opinions, regarding new age divas: Garanca and Netrebko as talents, aiming for fame, instead perfection of their singing art!
Sorry for my ignorance-what is the title of the very first aria (Rosa Ponselle vs Netrebko)?
Its miserere from il trovatore (its actually a duet)
@@francisca1378 Thanks A LOT😀
I was never a fan of Netrebko. She had her great moments, but she's not a coloratura by any stretch. She's best suited for heavy-weight parts, such as Marfa in "Czar's Bride". Also she sings with absolutely dead face, which is a pain to watch.
you can't be serious !
Leyla Gencer and Montserrat Caballe (in the 1970’s) are my favourite Donizetti and Bellini sopranos.
my these singers of today do give opera a horrible name.
….music aside, what’s up with the see- through camisole of Netrebko….I guess “if the vocal acting doesn’t assist you, utilise all your assets”… Maria would be turning in her grave…
Tits replaced bellcanto
Where is legendary Renata Tibaldi ??!!😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
Where,indeed
I have read up on Anna online, and apparently she doesn’t really like the idea of vocal fach and prefers to be called just “a soprano”.
She also has cited Maria Callas as one of her biggest influences and idols, and she admitted that she got bored with singing lyric soprano roles (though personally I don’t blame her one bit; many light lyric roles tend to be less dramatically complex and juicy to explore compared to the dramatic or spinto fach roles (they tend to be ingenues most of the time); however, it should be noted that lyric roles can be just as dramatically complex and as juicy to explore, like why are they so innocent? Is there something to them that makes them more than just innocent ingenues?).
I must admit, many of these miscast singers do come to life when placed in roles in their right fach. Anna’s Manon for example when you watch videos of her, has this energy, an almost motherly, girlish, hyperactive, innocent sort of charm to her that is perfect for the character. She also seems a lot more lively, if you watch her on stage.
I just think many of these singers got a little too ambitious for their own good and decided to explore roles outside of their fach a little too much.
However, there are exceptions to this rule. Piotr Beczala is one of them (he’s a lyric tenor, and sticks to roles of his fach).
Contrast this to someone like Renee Fleming, who although not a dramatic soprano, has at least stuck to roles in her fach. Well for the most part anyway.
Now THIS is how you make respectful comments without being cruel. It is filled with knowledge and not petty mocking . I wish more people who chose to make a critical analysis were as civil and respectful as you!
That's true… but you can also be singing in the correct fach, like Renée Fleming, but still have bad technique… like Renée Fleming. What I mean is that there is more to the problem than just singing the wrong repertoire. Singing the wrong repertoire makes the problem worse definitely, but there is also the issue of basic technique being bad….
@@francisca1378 Early Renee is decent. But she always had a tongue tension and knodel issue. If you listen to her live recording of Carousel from 2016 (I don't think it's on RUclips anymore sadly), she uses a correct technique and very clear middle and top. I think she is simply a misguided soprano with some decent foundation. Interestingly enough she always used the most chest notes and had the biggest top and middle in coloratura repertoire. Kinda the opposite of what you'd expect.
Flan Plan...I couldn't agree with you LESS, about Netrebko. She had a truly beautiful voice when she sang with her naturally lighter sound. But by deliberately forcing the sound back into her throat to try and sound dramatic, she's basically destroyed her voice now, to the point where it's downright ugly. And even though she may have had Callas as a model, her voice certainly did not have the ability to follow suit.
@@francisca1378 Really good point. The opposite can also be true, where someone can sing a totally wrong repertoire for their voice, but do so with enough good technique to minimize vocal damage. Specifically I think of Beverly Sills. She sang way too many roles that were just too big and heavy for her! Specifically the Donizetti Tudor Trilogy (especially Roberto Devereaux), Norma, Siege of Corinth, etc. Those roles probably took at teast 10 years off of her singing career. Fortunately, because she was such a magnificent musician, actress and vocal technician, she knew how to do those heavier roles effectively, dramatically, and with less vocal damage than some of these others cause themselves (like Damrau and Netrebko).
Omg, if you say that modern opera singers are bad compared to the Old ones, your comment section shows that modern opera fans are hateful compared to the elite opera fans of the past. THANK YOU 🎻
there were better don carlo-o don fatale example than her (the old school one) Louis Kirbky Lunn, Ebe Stignani etc
my favourite is Elena Nicolai.
@@francisca1378 elena nicolai high notes was great but over all Kirbky Lunn was better technically and artistically
@@chairulazmi3830 Kirkby Lunn is more of a contralto than a mezzo, so the recording of her singing it is transposed down anyway (not sure if she ever sang it in the original key). I adore her, but I also think Nicolai has great technique and artistic skill. I really wouldn't call one better than the other, or if I would… it is a very small difference.
@@francisca1378 the 1911' recording was in the original key. elena nicolai was great especially high notes even compare to soprano but her middle wasnt that great and also the fioratura scale.
@@chairulazmi3830 I think Nicolai has a great middle range, to me she really has perfect technique
and the 1911 recording on youtube is transposed down