I was ships armorer from 86-87. .38 revolver was for the helicopter crew if they needed to draw a weapon. I don’t think they ever did from what I can remember. The locker where Ryan was talking from was a landing force gear locker. We kept the flak vests, helmets, web belts, holsters, night vision, and watches in there. The armory was just forward of the wardroom across from XO stateroom.
@@stephenmayer9228 Perhaps revolvers work better if one has to ditch the helicopter in the ocean and the gun gets drenched in saltwater Revolvers are easier to maintain. The smaller ammunition means that you can carry more rounds for the same weight. If you end up in the water you want to carry as little extra weight as possible. Those are some plausible reasons.
@@CB-fn3me While I assume the predominate cases they would use the firearm would be after landing/ditching, there is one benefit to a revolver that if you have to fire it from within the flying aircraft, you won't have hot spent brass flying around, especially anywhere near an air intake.
When I was standing Quarter Deck Watches as the POOWin the late 60s-early 70s, the M1911 we carried was issued with two Magazines with 5 rounds in each Mag. We had to strip the mag and count each round. We were told the shortage in each mag was to protect the spring in the mag to ensure reliable feeding. We always joked that by the time we got the magazine out of the pouch and inserted in the gun, the OOD would be dead and we would be running for cover.
Same - we were issued in the same manner, as the thought process at the time believed that they were saving the magazine springs - an incorrect conclusion.
At time stamp 11:56 you show a log entry for four “thumpers” that were received from NWSC Crane. This caught my eye. My wife works at Crane. She may have been involved in the transfer of these items to the New Jersey. When I asked her about then she said the may very well still be there at Crane.
M-14s are also better for shark watch or shooting at floating mines. The S&W .22s and Colt Aces were probably target pistols. The AN/M8s are 37mm pyro launchers. Not sure about the MK 5s. Possibly 10 Gauge?
When I was on the Nassau in the early 80s we were issued a 1911 for quarter deck watch. We got the belt, holster and an ammo pouch with 2 magazines. They had 5 rounds in each. We were told it was so the spring wasn't fully compressed. There was no magazine in the gun and it took a direct order from the CO or OOD to load it.
When I was in the Caron (DD 970) the Ship's Self Defense Force (all hands) had to qualify on the M1911-A1, M14 and the 12GA shotgun. Like most everyone else, our 1911s were issued with 2 mags w/5 rounds each and we were not allowed to "load and lock" any of our weapons without a direct order from CO, XO or CDO. After the Caron I served as a courier then back to sea for my "Twilight" (pre-retirement) assignment, arriving aboard Nassau during Desert Shield. I was a qualified In-Port OOD from my days in Caron but most of the officers standing duty as CDO seemed surprised that I was comfortable with the .45, STILL the duty sidearm for the POOW through my retirement in August 1993.
M14s are still used for UnRep duties. As for the M60, the 7.62mm round is much better for small boat deterrent than the 5.56mm M249 SAW. And by late 2009, the 7.62mm M240B was the standard MG for USN destroyers.
Yes, they use the M-14 with special adapter to shoot what I remember is rubber ball attached to a string & that string is attached to a rope and uses blanks for that.
we were always issued 5rnds per mag for the 1911's. 2 reasons, the old wives tale of not keeping the springs fully compressed ( keeping them fully compressed forever does not harm the spring), 2nd, 45fmj ball ammo comes in 50 rnd mags, so much easier to to issue, and keep track of rnds. 10 cartridges goes into 50 much easier than7/14 does.
Ryan, this is from the MI Army National Guard just after 9-11. I was tasked to help guard Fort Custer here in MI. We would be issued an M-16A2 with two 30 round magazines with 10 rounds in one magazine and the other empty. This load out included a special convoy security detail I was part of to bring a semi loaded with (?????) from Camp Grayling to Fort Custer. This was a fun detail as when I was very young my Dad would take me on trips in his company's semi. So I got to relive that for a bit. It made my day!!! So the Navy wasn't the only service to short load magazines!!
I was on the RKT CG-20 (from '89-'94) during Desert Storm with the Roosevelt battle group - the Missouri had great fireworks too. Thanks for you service shipmate!
@RogerRamjet156 so you were on CG-20 at decomm i guess. Sad day. I saw pics where they torpedoed her port side and sunk her. I was then on DDG-18 and made Chief. Thanks for your service also brother!
In the 90s our sub carried m14s, said it was because they had more power and could kill a polar bear, we were capable of busting ice up north, so seems plausible. The grenade launchers we had as well, used them as part of a line handling procedure, fired a rubber slug with a line attached, spooled out of a can that also attached to the m14, to pull larger lines with for mooring.
This is all educated guesses (I was Army infantry, my father was Navy), but M-14 rounds have better balistic performance once they enter the water than 5.56. During my dad's time on the JFK, when they had free-swims in the ocean, a few armed sailors stood guard with M-14's (as late as the early 2000's) watching for sharks. So that makes sense. As for the four .38 revolvers, when BB62 briefly embarked one helicopter in the early 1980's, pilots carried revolvers. For one helicopter, there would have been four pilots (that rotated in pairs), maybe the revolvers were for them?
Another factor in the M14 was the range. A M16 is really only good for a couple of hundred yards. The heavier round of the M14 is a bunch better. Should you want to sink or disable a small boat at range, a select fire 7.62 is a better choice than a M60 or 50 cal.
Unless the 1911-A1's are meticulously maintained, cleaned, and lubricated, including the magazines, if a magazine was loaded to capacity, the 1911 was often apt to jam. Most times, the magazines were only given cursory inspection and rarely cleaned and lubricated.
pilots i know all carried 1911's even if they had to buy their own!! two of them carried a 22 revolver in their vests and strapped on the 1911 in a shoulder holster over the vest!
I was in from ‘82-‘86. All the weapons that the Jersey carried, we also had on our DDG. The .45’s were for the quarter deck, rover watch and missile house. The M14’s (3 of them had the automatic fire selector), shotguns and M79’s were almost exclusively used for the ships self defense force, and in our case, the Captain had a standing order of sending a boarding party if needed. We did get a load of stinger missiles when we deployed to the Persian Gulf along with a few Marines to operate them. They of course also brought their own other munitions too including hand grenades. The stingers were to be used to take down any close approaching aircraft in the gulf, from Iran, we had some pretty messed up rules of engagement at the time. Of course the M-60’s and Browning .50 cal. were just the cherry on top, nothing like shaking the rails with a long burst!
Also, the m249 SAW is 5.56mm, same as the m16. The m60 being 7.62mm. The m60 wqs replaced by the m240. Quick lookup listed the m240 going into service 1977. Would make sense then that the Battleship got hand-me-down m60s versus the brand new m240s.
The original M240 is heavier and longer that the M60. I started out my career in the Army with the M60 and hated it when we transitioned to the M240. M60- 23pounds and 33 inch’s. M240- 28 pounds and 37 inches.
I have a friend who is stationed on a ship during that time. The m14 with a superior accuracy and heavy, 7.62 bullet was used for shooting floating mines
The M-60 was still standard issue to the Army in the mid 80’s. They may have been working on its replacement, and some infantry units getting it, but most were still using this MG. Of course the Navy still would have Army leftovers then so having M-60’s is not surprising.
Yep, 100% In the early 2000s, my mech infantry PA Guard unit still used the Pig. It wasn't til at least 2 years after I got out that they upgraded to the M240.
Ruger Security Six was made as .357 Magnum which means it could also fire .38 special, a lower powered cartridge. It was a standard sidearm for police forces and the border patrol in this era. I own one, and it is one of my favorite revolvers, rugged and accurate.
Ryan not sure if you're aware of Hartshrone Woods Park, Navasink Monmouth County. Half the park includes the Highland Army Air Defence base. During WWII it had a bunker with 2 16" iowa guns. They have recently restored the batteries and installed an iowa 16" gun.
Marine Corp. policy 1976, 5 rounds in a M1911, 18 rounds in a 20 round M16A1 clip and 28 rounds in a M16A1 30 round clip. and i was instructed that they do this to protect the spring in the clip immediately before i did 50 pushups for the question,
ah... so this is where that fudd lore comes from. the spring is getting compressed most of the way anyway. getting fully compressed doesnt make much difference. If they really worried about lifetime, they would be loading magazines and keep them loaded.
@@robertthomas5906 i don't know if you've ever been in the Marine Corp but telling a drill sergeant to do pushup's is not going work out very well for ya especially in the mid 70s. and regardless thums the rules.
Aviators have that pistol as part of the inventory of their “survival vest”. In addition to ball ammo… the inventory for the survival vest included “tracer” ammo for emergency signaling.
less rounds in a magazine equals less compression on the spring. As these weapons weren't regularly being fired, a reduced number of rounds means the degradation of the spring from being perpetually fully compressed is less, resulting in higher reliability.
On board ship in early 2000’s, we still carried M14s as roving security and on the pier. We also had M9 pistols. We had some 38 revolvers, they were for air crews on the helos. We had 12 M16A2’s for boarding 16:50 parties and quick reaction force. We also had m-60’s that could mount on rails or on our RHIB. We had 50’s that were all rail mount. We also had a pair if MK19 grenade launchers rail mounted to repel small boats.
Ryan The M60 Machine gun wasn’t replaced by the M249 Saw. The SAW replaced the BAR. The M60 stayed in service till at least 2005 when it was replaced by the M240B which fired the same ammo but the weapon had modern improvements example lighter weight , quicker barrel change , faster cyclic rate of fires.
I was not in the Navy in the 1980's but I was I was in the Army at that time and we helicopter pilots were issued 38 cal Ruger (As well as other makes) revolvers. Perhaps the ones you have records for are for New Jersey's helo pilots. Just a thought...
I can substantiate this, as I was in an Army National Guard aviation battalion in the 80's. Not only were the pilots and other aircrew issued .38s, but they had "survival vests" with pockets for various items. A holster was sewn into that vest to fit the revolver.
This is new, I've seen a ton of pictures of smith and wesson Victory, and possible model 10s but this is the first time I've heard or Ruger revolvers can you elaborate on model, finish, and capacity
Good thought but the Iowas never had helo's assigned to the ship because they didn't have storage facilities for them. They always were assigned to a different ship in the task force.
At least two of the 1911's on your serial number list are straight 1911s. Serial number 13097 probably dates to before world war I. Serial number 363824 dates to around 1918. I have my great-uncles that he carried in France in 1918 and it's in the 330,000 serial number range. According to Colt records it was manufactured in March of 1918.
My frigate in the late 80’s had almost the same selection of weapons as NJ. Stingers were brought onboard with a Stinger det when deploying to the PG. Also a 25mm (starboard mount)chaingun and 2 mk19s(port side) just for the PG. Normal loadout was 1911’s, mossberg 500s,m14s (a few were select fire),2 m79s,2 m60’s, up to 6 .50 cals and a few mk5 flare guns. The .38’s were probably for helo pilots(revolvers for reliability). Yes 45 mags were loaded with 5 rounds , said for saving the springs , plus that is for daily carry. If I was doing a boarding party ,I’d load those up to 7 rnds and I was issued 2 belts for my 60. That plus a radio,flare pistol,semaphore flags,and a signal light.All that with an inflatable life vest over PASGT flak vest, if I fell in the water, I was gonna visit the anchor for sure! On deployment you could bring a personal weapon if you went through channels supposedly if it was one of our standard calibers 38/45/7.62. But a SCPO brought a 45LC revolver and our Landing Force Lt. had a silencered Mac10. We had m79s onboard but never fired them because of a previous incident with an injury. The m60s had a railing mount that we used with our big NODS(nvd). You didnt like shooting prone on the nonskid deck, mainly standing.
Re: 5 rnds in the 1911 magazines, this was a very common practice to issue to watch-standers at the time, although not universal. I was on at least one ship that issued 7 rnds per magazine, but all the others were 5 rnds / mag. Re M14 vs M16. The M14 just fit the Navy requirements better. The weight did not matter, it is not like you are humping the weapon through the jungle. The heavier caliber offered better penetration of things like light boat hulls if you needed to stand off borders, and also had better range, again as you might need across open water. Not sure if it is lore or not, but we were also told it worked better if you needed to protect swimmers in the water form things such as sharks. And the thumpers, as well as the grenade locker, grenades are useful to a Navy ship if you suspect swimmers in the water as a threat. When you suspected swimmers as a threat you periodically, and irregularly, did things like cycle the rudders, turn screws, take suction and discharge to the water, activate sonar, etc. And, drop in some grenades, as directed.
When I was a GMG in the '90s we had M-60s & M-79 Grenade launchers. We didn't have SAWs. The Navy kept the M-14. It was used for line throwing, the line throwing equipment wasn't compatible with the smaller M-16 5.56, and it wouldn't have the power of the 7.62. This is also a use for the M-79. We also had the M1911. Revolvers are preferred for air crews over automatics. When doing flight-line security patrol I had a Remington 870 shotgun. Birdshot has less penetration than ball ammo, so you are less likely to shoot threw a pannel and hit someone behind it or damage equipment inside equipment panels.
While not a Navy item: when my dad was a merchant marine officer, up through the 1980s, his company's cargo ships carried a couple of bolt-action rifles, and one or two revolvers -- kept in the main safe with the cash for pay-draws and unexpected repairs.
The 1911 magazines were loaded short so the springs would not loose tension if the magazines were stored with rounds inside. That way a quick issue could be made in an emergency. M14 and M60 use the same ammo, so why use 5.56 Nato? Also 7.62x51 reaches out against boarders better.
My understanding is that by the 70's and 80's, most of the M1911A1's (and their magazines) were getting pretty old and banged up. I've read quite a few accounts from Vietnam that say their unit SOP was to down-load their magazines to 5 rounds to keep them from jamming.
I was part of the Decomm crew on the USS Arthur W Radford DD-969, I stood topside river in 2003 before Decomm with a M14. We didn't have a M16 on board but did have the M9
in the 70's the ship I was on had Marines that guarded the interior of the missel mags. I was part of the ships reserve force that was tasked with controlling access points leading to the missel mags and while those were not the weapons we were issued it sounds like a similar loadout.
I found the answer on the Rugers. They were issued to couriers who were carrying classified documents. I should have remembered this as my Dad did courier work on several ships in the late 70's and the Navy Annex. He was issued a handgun and a set of handcuffs to attach himself to the briefcase. He carried documents from the Annex to the Pentagon on a regular basis as well as from shore to ship and vice versa when required. I vaguely him bringing home a revolver once when I was but a wee lad.
The 10 rounds probably just comes down to how the rounds were packaged. You don't want to have to break open 2 packets and count out another 4rds, it would be inconvenient for accounting purposes. Still better than when I was on payroll guard and had an SLR, bayonet and 0 rounds.
12:20 two big ones stand out to me, flares and smoke grenades. sure its stupidly rare to need a smoke grenade but when vertically launched from a tube it serves the same purpose a flare does, but in daylight. Flares on the other hand are way way way more important because when tube launched they light up an area very close to where fired. So at night say if there were boats near the battleship, launching a flare with the m79 would illuminate the immediate area, meanwhile signal flares or any other flare munition won't be able to have that same illumination effect.
The M9 was not adopted until 1985 and did not see widespread use until the late 1980s. If the weapons inventory dates from 1983 then the M1911A1 was still standard issue.
The 1911 is still issued to some units in the us military, although it was replaced as the standard issue pistol in actuality in 1986, but as mentioned it is still in inventory and use with some units.
I’m no 1911 expert, I’m young and that’s before my time. I was in the army at the end of the Betetta M9 and Sig M17/18 adoption. But I do own a lot of high end 1911’s and what I understand is this. The magazines are tough for armories to keep serviceable. Sometimes when you download a magazine, it helps with reliability. So we know they may not have 3 mags per soldier/sailor to go around. So 45 acp isn’t the main NATO pistol round, 9x19 is. So they may not logistically have that ammo to go around either. Keep in mind that Delta force, Force Recon, seal team 6 (especially 80’s and 90’s into early 2000’s) and the high-speed tier 1 sexy units loved their 1911s and the majority of parts go to them. The straight back trigger pull leads to unchallenged accuracy
my guess for the ruger secuirity six's is small concealable revolvers for higher ranking officers/flag staff to carry concealed under civilian clothes if they wish/need to go ashore in less salubrious locations but keeping a low profile where having a guard with them may attract unwanted attention.. worth bearing in mind that several US cities especially LA and NYC in the 80's had a VERY high violent crime rate, much higher than today.
Ships are always behind receiving new issue weapons. Even in the boat units, we didn't switch from the M60 to M240 until the 1990s. Usually, the units always receive newer weapons before the fleet. Shotguns were issued for shipboard security alert forces.
I remember we carried many of these same arms on board the Saratoga at this same time. The 1911s we had were pretty sloopy and warnout. We also had M2 50 CALs that I got to serve briefly. The M14 I think was retained because we used them to shoot shot lines across during replenishment operations. Not sure that the M16 had the adaptor which allowed for that. The other thing to remember is that the MarDet was the primary security force for the ship in the 80s and 90s. I always got the feeling the leadership did not really trust sailors that were not GMs with weapons.
Some quick searching for the .38 Ruger Security six shows they were issued to some very specific groups. Marine embassy guards and the Naval Investigative Service. Which to me corresponds with the very small quantity onboard. And I was only trained on the M60 machine gun and not any version of the SAW at all in 1993 when I enlisted.
I suspect some of the weapon choices might have been because other ships in the US Navy had those weapons as standard allotments at the time the Iowas were being recommissioned.
Mk V signal pistol used Signal Light Mk 2 which were 12g size flares. The AN/M8 used the larger 1.5in (37mm) signal stars. The AN/M8 was also standard on many aircraft, and dated from WW2.
I am not surprised at the M14 or M60. While not as modern as M249, M16, or M4. They are both chamber in 7.62x51 NATO which has a much longer reach and energy at all ranges than 5.56x45NATO. I am certain some decided that being able to have arms that can reach out a little farther and hit harder was more important than having the most modern lightweight firearms as the expectation would be those arms were not going much farther than the upper decks of the ship.
Grenade launchers can be used with an attachment to throw line of a larger distance. Which is useful when you are doing ship to ship refuelling and restocks
I served in the 80's we had M60s in all the units I served in. The M249 came out in 1984 and was issued to front line combat units first, so it's not surprising to see the ship getting M60s.
From what I am seeing the NIS used the security six and the Army issued it to female MPs, so my best guess it was either for NIS agents or MAs who didn't get 1911s.
The ship I served on carried M1911A1 pistols and M14 rifles. Shooting qualifications was done annually. The M14 rifles were very accurate. The M1911A1 pistols rattled like castanets. Very worn pistols. The pistols rusted readily outside of the small ams locker.
The arms choices may also have a training and qualification factor. If a majority of the crew were trained on the older weapons, retraining on the newest, latest and greatest might have been an issue. But, most sailors with handgun training would have trained on the 1911's. So, carrying them, especially with the quantity in inventory, might have made a lot of sense to someone. Another factor for the M14 might have been that it would be a better weapon for boarding parties. the 7.62 would go through a ships interior partitions mech better than a 223 round. I'll mention that I worked in a machine shop in the early 80's. Two items that I made were recoil counters for the 16 inch guns and hammers for dedicated line throwing guns. So, most likely, you have some of my work on board.
during my time on FFG-60 2005-2008 we carried the M14 rifle for launching the lines for UNREP as well as the weapon used by our Marksmen. As for the M79s I would guess the same as Ryan Small, boat attack but also swimmer/ saboteur in the water defense. The M60s may have had mounts similar to the mounts on the Perry Class still being built at that time. Which was basically a bunch of steel pipes welded together with a weapons mount on top. Or in our case specifically mounted to the rail on the bridge wing. Those are my guesses especially given that this was done during a time when ships like the Perry Class were still being built thus available during New Jerseys 80s refit.
Interesting video! Particularly with the revolvers. Revolvers were frequently issued to air crews, and there are a variety of theories as to why. Some say they were easier to use if injured, some because they were less likely to need a handgun at all, and some because that was what was available. I was expecting to see a S&W or a Colt, but was really surprised to see a Ruger Security Six. I had sort of thought the revolvers were left over legacy pieces that were just perpetual inventory, but the acquisition of a contemporary revolver implies they were in actual use.
@@HongyaMa Pistol ammunition usually comes in 50rd boxes, at least in the civilian world so that makes sense, 2 boxes per 5 guys and Bob''s your uncle.
@@HongyaMa if the Americans thought that way they would have adopted metric by now. Most of us were lucky to have 10 digits on the end or our arms, learning metric was so easy and didn't require memorizing the weird fraction system they insist on using. I still have no idea how many 'feet' are in a mile, or even what a mile is... but I can figure out how many mm are in one kilometer without using google or a calculator.
It's sad or country has given up doing even the most basic maintenance on small arms. I've got a 1919A4 so I picked up a maintenance manual for it. It was expected base level armorers would actually fix it. Everything from replacing and tightening rivets to a big lead block to hit the receiver against to straighten the barrel shroud. Not being able to maintain springs and small parts. Something is wrong with our small arms system.
The .38 Ruger Security Six was available for carry by the helo crew. Of course, the battleships didn't have an embarked helicopter so they were probably never issued. The Security Six was the standard issue handgun for Army helicopter crews in the 1980s so it, and .38 caliber ammunition, was in the DOD inventory.
I'm not certain about the Navy, but in the early 90s Army aircrew were making the transition from .38 revolvers to M9 Beretta. As for the M14s, "designated marksmen" within squad or platoon sized Army elements were issued M14 and Mk 14 EBR (Enhanced Battle Rifle) as late as '04-06 (and probably later) in Iraq and Afghanistan. Issuing 5 rounds for a 7 round magazine (for the M1911A1) was pretty common the Army as well...either for ease of issue (someone on guard duty for example) and the old wives tale about putting 7 rounds in the magazine would shorten the life of the mag's spring.
The M79 Thumper had two anti-personnel rounds: a flechette round and a buckshot round. Those would be brutally effective for repelling boarders and other uncooperative guests, especially in enclosed spaces like compartments and passageways. Of if you're the boarder, clearing compartments and passageways of uncooperative hosts.
The reason there are so few guns in the 80's is because they really don't need them. They have CIWS for close in support as well as old and new destroyers and cruisers. Would have been mostly used for ceremonial reasons I suspect.
Were MP's in the 80's allowed to carry handguns when ashore rounding up sailors? Perhaps there were restrictions on the caliber and amount of rounds they were allowed to carry in certain countries?
That gun load out is just like mine from the late 80s early 90s, just more of them since I was wepo on a much smaller ship, an LST, ha. Using leftover but perfectly good weapons. I don't know why New Jersey had the 38s, hopefully someone does (maybe aircrew?). Another good reason for the M 14s is they were used as line throwing guns for UNREP. The stingers were probably issued to the ship only as needed for deployments. We were issued them just for Desert Storm.
If I had to guess, the odd 1911 round count was probably something to do with how much ammo was in a single box (surplus boxes I've seen are typically 20 rounds each). So 1 box is issued out between 2 pistols/sailors. Just my 2¢. As for the M14s, I don't know if it would be denoted in the log book or not but the Navy still uses them as line throwers (modified barrels, loaded with blanks). Could be that, rather than in their original configuration.
Downloading old magazines is a common practice for vintage firearm shooters so that's not terribly surprising if were talking about original magazines from the 40''s with then 40 year old springs. It's a reliability thing.
Perhaps there was an air crew on board at the time the revolvers were in the armory? Air crews in the army were issued 38 revolvers with shoulder holsters during and after vietnam
Not sure about the barrel length on the .38. But it did stir up a story from the 1980's Chicago Police. The police had a $20 marksman test to keep your job. Now, back then they could carry whatever they wanted. .357, .45, whatever. The test, through corruption trickling down from the top, could be taken two ways. You paid $20, shot your target, and got scored. Or, you paid $20, got your target. Clipped another $20 to it and handed it back to the rangemaster. The rangemaster pocketed the $20 and used a pencil to poke out a passing score. It was the latter that resulted in a multicar police pursuit of a cabbie where the cabbie jumped out of his car, produced a handgun and shot at police. At point blank range. The police returned fire. Of the over 100 rounds expended by police, none struck the cabbie. Also, none struck the cab he was hunkered down behind. Tore up scenery, surrounding buildings, wounded bystanders. The cabbie ran out of ammunition and surrendered. The thing that galled police management is that of the over 100 rounds, not one hit an 8 foot by four foot (1.33 curator x .66 curator) cab at 10 yards. (5 curators) So thereafter, police were only allowed .38 snubnose revolvers to limit lethality at range.
The reason the colt 1911 had 5 rounds in the mags even though the mags hold 7 rounds is because the 1911s were issued for law enforcement purposes at a time when the 5-shot revolver was the typical law enforcement weapon. The colt 1911 was largely replaced by the Beretta M9 beginning in 1985 - though the 1911 and its varriants still remain in government service today, most notably with LAPD SWAT. The .38 revolver round is typically used where one needs to be accurate without having to spend an undue amount of time training - the .32, the .357, and the .38 AKA the .380 are historically NYPD weapons before NYPD switched to semi- automatics. As for the 40 mm grenade launchers, they were used to deal with the kamakazie lessons learned in WW2.
You can (and should!) FOIA request those serials with Redstone Arsenal- then you will know for sure exactly where they went, including if any survived to get to CMP. Round 3 of the CMP 1911 program had a lot of ex Navy guns go out, both my father and brother got Navy 1911s.
I think the shotguns and M79s were for ships self defense, m79 with tear gas if the ship is rushed at the pier and with concussive grenades if it is attacked by small boats. The shot guns would be used if the ship was boarded since it was less likely to damage equipment or people other than the attacker. M-14s were used for firing shot lines for underway refueling or taking on stores by high wire. There wasn't an adapter for the M-16 that I know of.
they re issued the M-14's because the ship was NOT going to go ashore, and they saved the New guns ( m-16's) for the front line troops. There is also a thing that any of the other services could 1-1 requisition the weapons if both C.O.'s would allow it. ( temporarily trade a m-14 for a m-16) in case the marines ashore wanted the longer range of the 7.62/308w. to reach out and touch someone. not common, but it is allowed. (Plus the Marines would return the weapon in a better status than what they received it, ALWAYS a plus.)
An AN/M8 is a smoke grenade. The 22 Cal Colt "Ace" is a 22 version of the 1911 made by Colt for the military at various times, where I believe the numbers you had on the screen would indicate that they were 1945 production examples, but I would have to dig through my library to be sure.
Let me clear up the mystery on the .45 ammunition allocation. For most of the 20th Century the US military issued five rounds of sentry ammunition only. In the case of the M1911-series pistols, the magazine was loaded with five rounds only because that was all the ammunition issued. The magazine was generally carried in the magazine pouch on the belt for reasons of safety--no ammunition in the pistol until authorized to lock and load. Sometime before the 1990's the sentry ammunition allocation doubled to ten cartridges. Putting five rounds in each of two magazines made sense from an accountability aspect--because if one magazine had three rounds and the other magazine had seven, Murphy's Law means the wrong magazine would be grabbed. Again--no ammunition was in the pistol until authorized. I saw a short pistol serial number in the .45 list--it may be a bookkeeping error because most M1911A1 pistols had 7-digit serial numbers. Not included in the ship's small arms inventory would be the flag officer's personal weapon, which could have been a Colt M1903 pistol in .32 caliber. The .38 caliber revolvers were probably on hand to issue to air crew. Naval aviators were trained on .38 caliber revolvers and usually drew their revolvers from their squadron when needed, but if my information is accurate, aviators attached to ships didn't draw a revolver when deployed--the ship provided the aircrew revolvers. Most peacetime sorties were done without the aircrew drawing a sidearm--exception was patrols with nuclear weapons on the aircraft. There may have been some other functions for the New Jersey revolvers such as wear in civilian clothing while service as a courier or armed escort. Speaking of .38 caliber revolvers, when I was attached to the USS Tripoli/LPH-10 from November 1977 to August 1978 I observed that the OOD in foreign ports wore a holstered .38 revolver on the quarterdeck. The S&W Model 46 target pistols were probably for the New Jersey's rifle and pistol team. The Colt Ace was less accurate than the S&W and was probably used for pistol training. I am not surprised about the M60 machine guns because the SAW (M249) in 5.56mm wasn't as effective on small boats as the 7.62mm round--and the M79 would have been used alongside the M60 for anti-boarding. I'd like to see a swarm of small boats try to board an Iowa battleship under steam. More effective for the assigned mission, already on hand when the limited number of M60 machine guns were going to Army and Marine infantry--as late as 1989 my US Army electronic warfare battalion had the M60 and not the M249. The M14 was also used as a line throwing gun for bosun's chairs and refueling at sea. The M14 rifle had a mine clearing function though I'm not sure if the lookouts actually shot sea mines after the Korean War. If the M79 wasn't available. the M14 rifle with M76 grenade launcher could be used--the M76 seems to have been part of the line throwing gun system, too.
As far as the Navy and using older equipment go. Both my mom and dad had been in the Navy in the 80’s and early 90’s. They had been Corpsmen and during their training they had been building the forward resuscitative surgery system (FRSS). At which point they had been given sea rations from the 1940’s. This follows other cost cutting measures the Navy took that im sure my parents could talk about for hours. Many ppl think the U.S. military always has the latest and greatest toys, so to speak. While thats true in many cases, it’s not something that extents through the entire military for every service member. The Navy has a budget like everyone else and if they can find a way to save money, they usually do.. at least they did 40 years ago. Also, New Jersey frequently sailed along side my dad’s carrier on sea deployment. He was on the Ranger and wanted a BB, but never got it. He told me everyone wanted a BB.
M-14s are still issued to US Navy warship because they have the capability of throwing lines between ships for underway replenishment, a capability they inherit from an M1 Garand's ability to launch rifle grenades. The M16/M4 does not have this capability (cartridge is too small to throw that much mass). The Army's modernization program for M14s and M21s is straining Navy supplies, and the Navy has struggled to find a suitable replacement.
The saw or squad automatic weapon is Chambers in 5.56 the same round as the M16 the M60s which is chambered in 7.62 x51 were still seeing service all the way up until the 90s when they started being replaced by the m240 bravos
I was ships armorer from 86-87. .38 revolver was for the helicopter crew if they needed to draw a weapon. I don’t think they ever did from what I can remember. The locker where Ryan was talking from was a landing force gear locker. We kept the flak vests, helmets, web belts, holsters, night vision, and watches in there. The armory was just forward of the wardroom across from XO stateroom.
What's the thought process for air crews getting a revolver vs a 1911 or m9?
@@stephenmayer9228 Perhaps revolvers work better if one has to ditch the helicopter in the ocean and the gun gets drenched in saltwater Revolvers are easier to maintain. The smaller ammunition means that you can carry more rounds for the same weight. If you end up in the water you want to carry as little extra weight as possible. Those are some plausible reasons.
My guess is in case they had to fire their weapon onboard the aircraft. less likely to hit something important after penetrating a body.
Shoulder holster
@@CB-fn3me While I assume the predominate cases they would use the firearm would be after landing/ditching, there is one benefit to a revolver that if you have to fire it from within the flying aircraft, you won't have hot spent brass flying around, especially anywhere near an air intake.
When I was standing Quarter Deck Watches as the POOWin the late 60s-early 70s, the M1911 we carried was issued with two Magazines with 5 rounds in each Mag. We had to strip the mag and count each round. We were told the shortage in each mag was to protect the spring in the mag to ensure reliable feeding. We always joked that by the time we got the magazine out of the pouch and inserted in the gun, the OOD would be dead and we would be running for cover.
Same - we were issued in the same manner, as the thought process at the time believed that they were saving the magazine springs - an incorrect conclusion.
My coworker who served in the early 80s has told me the same story about his experience when issued a 1911a1
I was told we were doing that to make it easy to eyeball count 10 quickly
I was in from '92 - '97, and this was exactly my experience as well
In my day 1911 magazines were not fully loaded to reduce magazine spring deteriorating.
At time stamp 11:56 you show a log entry for four “thumpers” that were received from NWSC Crane. This caught my eye. My wife works at Crane. She may have been involved in the transfer of these items to the New Jersey. When I asked her about then she said the may very well still be there at Crane.
As an owner of a 16" battleship cannon, i really appreaciate this video, Ryan! thanks for the informative info!!
Since you own one, you should learn to call it a gun, not a cannon. ;)
The combination of M60s and M14s makes sense as they use the same ammunition. They are both very reasonable weapons to use against small attack boats.
yeah that was my concesus too. the 7.62 will push out farther and harder too
M-14s are also better for shark watch or shooting at floating mines. The S&W .22s and Colt Aces were probably target pistols. The AN/M8s are 37mm pyro launchers. Not sure about the MK 5s. Possibly 10 Gauge?
I believe M-14s were used against sea mines by the US Navy.
When I was on the Nassau in the early 80s we were issued a 1911 for quarter deck watch. We got the belt, holster and an ammo pouch with 2 magazines. They had 5 rounds in each. We were told it was so the spring wasn't fully compressed. There was no magazine in the gun and it took a direct order from the CO or OOD to load it.
When I was in the Caron (DD 970) the Ship's Self Defense Force (all hands) had to qualify on the M1911-A1, M14 and the 12GA shotgun. Like most everyone else, our 1911s were issued with 2 mags w/5 rounds each and we were not allowed to "load and lock" any of our weapons without a direct order from CO, XO or CDO. After the Caron I served as a courier then back to sea for my "Twilight" (pre-retirement) assignment, arriving aboard Nassau during Desert Shield. I was a qualified In-Port OOD from my days in Caron but most of the officers standing duty as CDO seemed surprised that I was comfortable with the .45, STILL the duty sidearm for the POOW through my retirement in August 1993.
M14s are still used for UnRep duties.
As for the M60, the 7.62mm round is much better for small boat deterrent than the 5.56mm M249 SAW. And by late 2009, the 7.62mm M240B was the standard MG for USN destroyers.
Yes, they use the M-14 with special adapter to shoot what I remember is rubber ball attached to a string & that string is attached to a rope and uses blanks for that.
we were always issued 5rnds per mag for the 1911's. 2 reasons, the old wives tale of not keeping the springs fully compressed ( keeping them fully compressed forever does not harm the spring), 2nd, 45fmj ball ammo comes in 50 rnd mags, so much easier to to issue, and keep track of rnds. 10 cartridges goes into 50 much easier than7/14 does.
Ryan, this is from the MI Army National Guard just after 9-11. I was tasked to help guard Fort Custer here in MI. We would be issued an M-16A2 with two 30 round magazines with 10 rounds in one magazine and the other empty. This load out included a special convoy security detail I was part of to bring a semi loaded with (?????) from Camp Grayling to Fort Custer. This was a fun detail as when I was very young my Dad would take me on trips in his company's semi. So I got to relive that for a bit. It made my day!!!
So the Navy wasn't the only service to short load magazines!!
I was not on the NJ, but I was assigned to the NJ battlegroup on CG-20 when the NJ lit up Beirut like a birthday cake. Awesome to watch her in action.
I was on the RKT CG-20 (from '89-'94) during Desert Storm with the Roosevelt battle group - the Missouri had great fireworks too. Thanks for you service shipmate!
@RogerRamjet156 so you were on CG-20 at decomm i guess. Sad day. I saw pics where they torpedoed her port side and sunk her. I was then on DDG-18 and made Chief. Thanks for your service also brother!
In the 80's I was on SSN-585 with the exact same 5 rounds in two clips for 1911. Also used M14s and the riot shotgun.
Same for boomers in the 70s.
In the 90s our sub carried m14s, said it was because they had more power and could kill a polar bear, we were capable of busting ice up north, so seems plausible. The grenade launchers we had as well, used them as part of a line handling procedure, fired a rubber slug with a line attached, spooled out of a can that also attached to the m14, to pull larger lines with for mooring.
the M79's could have been for flare launching too!!
This is all educated guesses (I was Army infantry, my father was Navy), but M-14 rounds have better balistic performance once they enter the water than 5.56. During my dad's time on the JFK, when they had free-swims in the ocean, a few armed sailors stood guard with M-14's (as late as the early 2000's) watching for sharks. So that makes sense.
As for the four .38 revolvers, when BB62 briefly embarked one helicopter in the early 1980's, pilots carried revolvers. For one helicopter, there would have been four pilots (that rotated in pairs), maybe the revolvers were for them?
Excellent points
Another factor in the M14 was the range. A M16 is really only good for a couple of hundred yards. The heavier round of the M14 is a bunch better. Should you want to sink or disable a small boat at range, a select fire 7.62 is a better choice than a M60 or 50 cal.
@@bobmazzi7435Ma Deuce would be my fav.
Unless the 1911-A1's are meticulously maintained, cleaned, and lubricated, including the magazines, if a magazine was loaded to capacity, the 1911 was often apt to jam. Most times, the magazines were only given cursory inspection and rarely cleaned and lubricated.
pilots i know all carried 1911's even if they had to buy their own!! two of them carried a 22 revolver in their vests and strapped on the 1911 in a shoulder holster over the vest!
The thumper may have been used for anti diver grenades like the m203 is now used on modern naval vessels
flare launching most likely!!
I was in from ‘82-‘86. All the weapons that the Jersey carried, we also had on our DDG. The .45’s were for the quarter deck, rover watch and missile house. The M14’s (3 of them had the automatic fire selector), shotguns and M79’s were almost exclusively used for the ships self defense force, and in our case, the Captain had a standing order of sending a boarding party if needed. We did get a load of stinger missiles when we deployed to the Persian Gulf along with a few Marines to operate them. They of course also brought their own other munitions too including hand grenades. The stingers were to be used to take down any close approaching aircraft in the gulf, from Iran, we had some pretty messed up rules of engagement at the time. Of course the M-60’s and Browning .50 cal. were just the cherry on top, nothing like shaking the rails with a long burst!
My dad was on the New Jersey in the '80s and occasionally carried a 1911 when he was OOD.
I was onboard in the 80’s. What did your father do onboard? Do you know his rating? I worked with a Palmer.
@@gmgg424 LCDR. He was in the FM division of Weapons, according to the '88 WestPac cruise book.
The M60 was still widely used up into the late ‘90’s/early 2000’s. I fired one in BCT at Leonard Wood in 1999
Some are still in the inventory today.
Also, the m249 SAW is 5.56mm, same as the m16. The m60 being 7.62mm. The m60 wqs replaced by the m240. Quick lookup listed the m240 going into service 1977. Would make sense then that the Battleship got hand-me-down m60s versus the brand new m240s.
The original M240 is heavier and longer that the M60. I started out my career in the Army with the M60 and hated it when we transitioned to the M240. M60- 23pounds and 33 inch’s. M240- 28 pounds and 37 inches.
I love the way all of that old paper work is typed!!
I have a friend who is stationed on a ship during that time. The m14 with a superior accuracy and heavy, 7.62 bullet was used for shooting floating mines
Revolvers are commsec security and perhaps the CO had a pistol. Having said that, they may have been intended for aircrew.
most likely they're for the brig watch!!
The M-60 was still standard issue to the Army in the mid 80’s. They may have been working on its replacement, and some infantry units getting it, but most were still using this MG. Of course the Navy still would have Army leftovers then so having M-60’s is not surprising.
Yep, 100% In the early 2000s, my mech infantry PA Guard unit still used the Pig. It wasn't til at least 2 years after I got out that they upgraded to the M240.
Ruger Security Six was made as .357 Magnum which means it could also fire .38 special, a lower powered cartridge. It was a standard sidearm for police forces and the border patrol in this era. I own one, and it is one of my favorite revolvers, rugged and accurate.
38 cal. Security Sixs were issued to some aircrews and NIS agents at the time.
Ryan not sure if you're aware of Hartshrone Woods Park, Navasink Monmouth County. Half the park includes the Highland Army Air Defence base. During WWII it had a bunker with 2 16" iowa guns. They have recently restored the batteries and installed an iowa 16" gun.
Thank you to everyone involved.
Marine Corp. policy 1976, 5 rounds in a M1911, 18 rounds in a 20 round M16A1 clip and 28 rounds in a M16A1 30 round clip. and i was instructed that they do this to protect the spring in the clip immediately before i did 50 pushups for the question,
You should have told him to do the pushups. It doesn't protect the spring.
ah... so this is where that fudd lore comes from. the spring is getting compressed most of the way anyway. getting fully compressed doesnt make much difference. If they really worried about lifetime, they would be loading magazines and keep them loaded.
@@robertthomas5906 i don't know if you've ever been in the Marine Corp but telling a drill sergeant to do pushup's is not going work out very well for ya especially in the mid 70s. and regardless thums the rules.
Should have only done 48 push-ups.
What are these clips? Like a paper clip? Or a chip clip?
We use magazines in weapons. 50 more push-ups.
Aviators have that pistol as part of the inventory of their “survival vest”. In addition to ball ammo… the inventory for the survival vest included “tracer” ammo for emergency signaling.
less rounds in a magazine equals less compression on the spring. As these weapons weren't regularly being fired, a reduced number of rounds means the degradation of the spring from being perpetually fully compressed is less, resulting in higher reliability.
On board ship in early 2000’s, we still carried M14s as roving security and on the pier. We also had M9 pistols. We had some 38 revolvers, they were for air crews on the helos. We had 12 M16A2’s for boarding 16:50 parties and quick reaction force. We also had m-60’s that could mount on rails or on our RHIB. We had 50’s that were all rail mount. We also had a pair if MK19 grenade launchers rail mounted to repel small boats.
I’m disappointed that there no cutlasses. Might have com in handy if they decided they had to board the Kirov
Technically every officer is required to buy a sword ....
Ryan The M60 Machine gun wasn’t replaced by the M249
Saw. The SAW replaced the BAR. The M60 stayed in service till at least 2005 when it was replaced by the M240B which fired the same ammo but the weapon had modern improvements example lighter weight , quicker barrel change , faster cyclic rate of fires.
I was not in the Navy in the 1980's but I was I was in the Army at that time and we helicopter pilots were issued 38 cal Ruger (As well as other makes) revolvers. Perhaps the ones you have records for are for New Jersey's helo pilots. Just a thought...
I can substantiate this, as I was in an Army National Guard aviation battalion in the 80's. Not only were the pilots and other aircrew issued .38s, but they had "survival vests" with pockets for various items. A holster was sewn into that vest to fit the revolver.
This is new, I've seen a ton of pictures of smith and wesson Victory, and possible model 10s but this is the first time I've heard or Ruger revolvers can you elaborate on model, finish, and capacity
Good thought but the Iowas never had helo's assigned to the ship because they didn't have storage facilities for them. They always were assigned to a different ship in the task force.
NIS (Precursor agency to NCIS) used the 38 Ruger security six at the time.
@@lonnywilcox445 NJ carried one helo for a brief time after her 1980's reactivation.
At least two of the 1911's on your serial number list are straight 1911s. Serial number 13097 probably dates to before world war I. Serial number 363824 dates to around 1918. I have my great-uncles that he carried in France in 1918 and it's in the 330,000 serial number range. According to Colt records it was manufactured in March of 1918.
Thank you for taking the time to look it up, I was just looking at 13097 and wondering if it was a typo.
My frigate in the late 80’s had almost the same selection of weapons as NJ.
Stingers were brought onboard with a Stinger det when deploying to the PG. Also a 25mm (starboard mount)chaingun and 2 mk19s(port side) just for the PG.
Normal loadout was 1911’s, mossberg 500s,m14s (a few were select fire),2 m79s,2 m60’s, up to 6 .50 cals and a few mk5 flare guns.
The .38’s were probably for helo pilots(revolvers for reliability).
Yes 45 mags were loaded with 5 rounds , said for saving the springs , plus that is for daily carry. If I was doing a boarding party ,I’d load those up to 7 rnds and I was issued 2 belts for my 60. That plus a radio,flare pistol,semaphore flags,and a signal light.All that with an inflatable life vest over PASGT flak vest, if I fell in the water, I was gonna visit the anchor for sure!
On deployment you could bring a personal weapon if you went through channels supposedly if it was one of our standard calibers 38/45/7.62. But a SCPO brought a 45LC revolver and our Landing Force Lt. had a silencered Mac10.
We had m79s onboard but never fired them because of a previous incident with an injury.
The m60s had a railing mount that we used with our big NODS(nvd). You didnt like shooting prone on the nonskid deck, mainly standing.
Re: 5 rnds in the 1911 magazines, this was a very common practice to issue to watch-standers at the time, although not universal. I was on at least one ship that issued 7 rnds per magazine, but all the others were 5 rnds / mag. Re M14 vs M16. The M14 just fit the Navy requirements better. The weight did not matter, it is not like you are humping the weapon through the jungle. The heavier caliber offered better penetration of things like light boat hulls if you needed to stand off borders, and also had better range, again as you might need across open water. Not sure if it is lore or not, but we were also told it worked better if you needed to protect swimmers in the water form things such as sharks. And the thumpers, as well as the grenade locker, grenades are useful to a Navy ship if you suspect swimmers in the water as a threat. When you suspected swimmers as a threat you periodically, and irregularly, did things like cycle the rudders, turn screws, take suction and discharge to the water, activate sonar, etc. And, drop in some grenades, as directed.
When I was a GMG in the '90s we had M-60s & M-79 Grenade launchers. We didn't have SAWs. The Navy kept the M-14. It was used for line throwing, the line throwing equipment wasn't compatible with the smaller M-16 5.56, and it wouldn't have the power of the 7.62. This is also a use for the M-79. We also had the M1911. Revolvers are preferred for air crews over automatics. When doing flight-line security patrol I had a Remington 870 shotgun. Birdshot has less penetration than ball ammo, so you are less likely to shoot threw a pannel and hit someone behind it or damage equipment inside equipment panels.
I have my uncle's service revolver he carried on the USS Ranger, he served there throughout the war. A 1917 S&W .45acp. It's in really good shape.
While not a Navy item: when my dad was a merchant marine officer, up through the 1980s, his company's cargo ships carried a couple of bolt-action rifles, and one or two revolvers -- kept in the main safe with the cash for pay-draws and unexpected repairs.
The 1911 magazines were loaded short so the springs would not loose tension if the magazines were stored with rounds inside. That way a quick issue could be made in an emergency. M14 and M60 use the same ammo, so why use 5.56 Nato? Also 7.62x51 reaches out against boarders better.
The Mossberg 500 shotgun is still made to this day and is quite popular with sport shooters.
My understanding is that by the 70's and 80's, most of the M1911A1's (and their magazines) were getting pretty old and banged up. I've read quite a few accounts from Vietnam that say their unit SOP was to down-load their magazines to 5 rounds to keep them from jamming.
I had a friend on a frigate in the 80s. Captain turned in m-9s and M-16 and rearmed with 1911s and M-14s.
I was part of the Decomm crew on the USS Arthur W Radford DD-969, I stood topside river in 2003 before Decomm with a M14. We didn't have a M16 on board but did have the M9
in the 70's the ship I was on had Marines that guarded the interior of the missel mags. I was part of the ships reserve force that was tasked with controlling access points leading to the missel mags and while those were not the weapons we were issued it sounds like a similar loadout.
I found the answer on the Rugers. They were issued to couriers who were carrying classified documents. I should have remembered this as my Dad did courier work on several ships in the late 70's and the Navy Annex. He was issued a handgun and a set of handcuffs to attach himself to the briefcase. He carried documents from the Annex to the Pentagon on a regular basis as well as from shore to ship and vice versa when required. I vaguely him bringing home a revolver once when I was but a wee lad.
The 10 rounds probably just comes down to how the rounds were packaged. You don't want to have to break open 2 packets and count out another 4rds, it would be inconvenient for accounting purposes.
Still better than when I was on payroll guard and had an SLR, bayonet and 0 rounds.
12:20 two big ones stand out to me, flares and smoke grenades. sure its stupidly rare to need a smoke grenade but when vertically launched from a tube it serves the same purpose a flare does, but in daylight. Flares on the other hand are way way way more important because when tube launched they light up an area very close to where fired. So at night say if there were boats near the battleship, launching a flare with the m79 would illuminate the immediate area, meanwhile signal flares or any other flare munition won't be able to have that same illumination effect.
The M9 was not adopted until 1985 and did not see widespread use until the late 1980s. If the weapons inventory dates from 1983 then the M1911A1 was still standard issue.
The 1911 is still issued to some units in the us military, although it was replaced as the standard issue pistol in actuality in 1986, but as mentioned it is still in inventory and use with some units.
I’m no 1911 expert, I’m young and that’s before my time. I was in the army at the end of the Betetta M9 and Sig M17/18 adoption.
But I do own a lot of high end 1911’s and what I understand is this. The magazines are tough for armories to keep serviceable. Sometimes when you download a magazine, it helps with reliability. So we know they may not have 3 mags per soldier/sailor to go around.
So 45 acp isn’t the main NATO pistol round, 9x19 is. So they may not logistically have that ammo to go around either.
Keep in mind that Delta force, Force Recon, seal team 6 (especially 80’s and 90’s into early 2000’s) and the high-speed tier 1 sexy units loved their 1911s and the majority of parts go to them. The straight back trigger pull leads to unchallenged accuracy
my guess for the ruger secuirity six's is small concealable revolvers for higher ranking officers/flag staff to carry concealed under civilian clothes if they wish/need to go ashore in less salubrious locations but keeping a low profile where having a guard with them may attract unwanted attention.. worth bearing in mind that several US cities especially LA and NYC in the 80's had a VERY high violent crime rate, much higher than today.
Ships are always behind receiving new issue weapons. Even in the boat units, we didn't switch from the M60 to M240 until the 1990s. Usually, the units always receive newer weapons before the fleet. Shotguns were issued for shipboard security alert forces.
I remember we carried many of these same arms on board the Saratoga at this same time. The 1911s we had were pretty sloopy and warnout. We also had M2 50 CALs that I got to serve briefly. The M14 I think was retained because we used them to shoot shot lines across during replenishment operations. Not sure that the M16 had the adaptor which allowed for that. The other thing to remember is that the MarDet was the primary security force for the ship in the 80s and 90s. I always got the feeling the leadership did not really trust sailors that were not GMs with weapons.
Some quick searching for the .38 Ruger Security six shows they were issued to some very specific groups. Marine embassy guards and the Naval Investigative Service. Which to me corresponds with the very small quantity onboard.
And I was only trained on the M60 machine gun and not any version of the SAW at all in 1993 when I enlisted.
I suspect some of the weapon choices might have been because other ships in the US Navy had those weapons as standard allotments at the time the Iowas were being recommissioned.
Mk V signal pistol used Signal Light Mk 2 which were 12g size flares.
The AN/M8 used the larger 1.5in (37mm) signal stars. The AN/M8 was also standard on many aircraft, and dated from WW2.
I am not surprised at the M14 or M60. While not as modern as M249, M16, or M4. They are both chamber in 7.62x51 NATO which has a much longer reach and energy at all ranges than 5.56x45NATO. I am certain some decided that being able to have arms that can reach out a little farther and hit harder was more important than having the most modern lightweight firearms as the expectation would be those arms were not going much farther than the upper decks of the ship.
The Navy and Air Force both issued. 38 revolvers to pilots as part of their survival gear.
Grenade launchers can be used with an attachment to throw line of a larger distance. Which is useful when you are doing ship to ship refuelling and restocks
I served in the 80's we had M60s in all the units I served in. The M249 came out in 1984 and was issued to front line combat units first, so it's not surprising to see the ship getting M60s.
In the Coast Guard in the early 80's, we had M60s with a pintle for use from the bridge wing during LE boardings.
I think .38 revolvers were sometimes issued as survival pistols for aircrew, maybe those would have been issued to the Sea Sprite crew?
NIS (Precursor to NCIS) also used the same handgun at the time not just aircrews.
From what I am seeing the NIS used the security six and the Army issued it to female MPs, so my best guess it was either for NIS agents or MAs who didn't get 1911s.
When I was on board USS Rodney M Davis ffg 60 in 2008 we still had 3 or 4 m14s and 2 m79s
The ship I served on carried M1911A1 pistols and M14 rifles. Shooting qualifications was done annually. The M14 rifles were very accurate. The M1911A1 pistols rattled like castanets. Very worn pistols. The pistols rusted readily outside of the small ams locker.
The arms choices may also have a training and qualification factor. If a majority of the crew were trained on the older weapons, retraining on the newest, latest and greatest might have been an issue. But, most sailors with handgun training would have trained on the 1911's. So, carrying them, especially with the quantity in inventory, might have made a lot of sense to someone.
Another factor for the M14 might have been that it would be a better weapon for boarding parties. the 7.62 would go through a ships interior partitions mech better than a 223 round.
I'll mention that I worked in a machine shop in the early 80's. Two items that I made were recoil counters for the 16 inch guns and hammers for dedicated line throwing guns. So, most likely, you have some of my work on board.
during my time on FFG-60 2005-2008 we carried the M14 rifle for launching the lines for UNREP as well as the weapon used by our Marksmen. As for the M79s I would guess the same as Ryan Small, boat attack but also swimmer/ saboteur in the water defense. The M60s may have had mounts similar to the mounts on the Perry Class still being built at that time. Which was basically a bunch of steel pipes welded together with a weapons mount on top. Or in our case specifically mounted to the rail on the bridge wing. Those are my guesses especially given that this was done during a time when ships like the Perry Class were still being built thus available during New Jerseys 80s refit.
Interesting video! Particularly with the revolvers. Revolvers were frequently issued to air crews, and there are a variety of theories as to why. Some say they were easier to use if injured, some because they were less likely to need a handgun at all, and some because that was what was available. I was expecting to see a S&W or a Colt, but was really surprised to see a Ruger Security Six. I had sort of thought the revolvers were left over legacy pieces that were just perpetual inventory, but the acquisition of a contemporary revolver implies they were in actual use.
Being a GM the 5-round mags are to prevent the mag springs from too much compression and failing and jamming the pistol.
Was in Security in 2001-2002 and did the same only 5 rounds in each mag for the 9mm, same reason
also it makes math easy 10 rounds a man X number of men = easy
@@HongyaMa Pistol ammunition usually comes in 50rd boxes, at least in the civilian world so that makes sense, 2 boxes per 5 guys and Bob''s your uncle.
@@HongyaMa if the Americans thought that way they would have adopted metric by now. Most of us were lucky to have 10 digits on the end or our arms, learning metric was so easy and didn't require memorizing the weird fraction system they insist on using. I still have no idea how many 'feet' are in a mile, or even what a mile is... but I can figure out how many mm are in one kilometer without using google or a calculator.
It's sad or country has given up doing even the most basic maintenance on small arms.
I've got a 1919A4 so I picked up a maintenance manual for it. It was expected base level armorers would actually fix it. Everything from replacing and tightening rivets to a big lead block to hit the receiver against to straighten the barrel shroud.
Not being able to maintain springs and small parts. Something is wrong with our small arms system.
The .38 Ruger Security Six was available for carry by the helo crew. Of course, the battleships didn't have an embarked helicopter so they were probably never issued. The Security Six was the standard issue handgun for Army helicopter crews in the 1980s so it, and .38 caliber ammunition, was in the DOD inventory.
I was in the Marine Corps in 80’s. I remember not getting to use a 9mm for pistol qual until the mid 80’s. Before then we used the 45.
Ships even as small as destroyer has grenades and boom boom. We deployed a small team of marines and provided 5 inch gun support. Plenty.
I 1986 We still had M60 Machine Guns in the Army.
I'm not certain about the Navy, but in the early 90s Army aircrew were making the transition from .38 revolvers to M9 Beretta. As for the M14s, "designated marksmen" within squad or platoon sized Army elements were issued M14 and Mk 14 EBR (Enhanced Battle Rifle) as late as '04-06 (and probably later) in Iraq and Afghanistan. Issuing 5 rounds for a 7 round magazine (for the M1911A1) was pretty common the Army as well...either for ease of issue (someone on guard duty for example) and the old wives tale about putting 7 rounds in the magazine would shorten the life of the mag's spring.
The M79 Thumper had two anti-personnel rounds: a flechette round and a buckshot round. Those would be brutally effective for repelling boarders and other uncooperative guests, especially in enclosed spaces like compartments and passageways. Of if you're the boarder, clearing compartments and passageways of uncooperative hosts.
The reason there are so few guns in the 80's is because they really don't need them. They have CIWS for close in support as well as old and new destroyers and cruisers. Would have been mostly used for ceremonial reasons I suspect.
They were for the quarterdeck watches and security team to use in port, and if necessary to board vessels or arm a shore party.
Were MP's in the 80's allowed to carry handguns when ashore rounding up sailors? Perhaps there were restrictions on the caliber and amount of rounds they were allowed to carry in certain countries?
Shore Patrol was not armed.
That gun load out is just like mine from the late 80s early 90s, just more of them since I was wepo on a much smaller ship, an LST, ha. Using leftover but perfectly good weapons. I don't know why New Jersey had the 38s, hopefully someone does (maybe aircrew?). Another good reason for the M 14s is they were used as line throwing guns for UNREP. The stingers were probably issued to the ship only as needed for deployments. We were issued them just for Desert Storm.
M14 shark gun during swim call?
The round count i because of the ammo being issued in 50 round boxes. five rounds per mag keeps the count even for inventory purposes.
If I had to guess, the odd 1911 round count was probably something to do with how much ammo was in a single box (surplus boxes I've seen are typically 20 rounds each). So 1 box is issued out between 2 pistols/sailors. Just my 2¢.
As for the M14s, I don't know if it would be denoted in the log book or not but the Navy still uses them as line throwers (modified barrels, loaded with blanks). Could be that, rather than in their original configuration.
Downloading old magazines is a common practice for vintage firearm shooters so that's not terribly surprising if were talking about original magazines from the 40''s with then 40 year old springs. It's a reliability thing.
Perhaps there was an air crew on board at the time the revolvers were in the armory? Air crews in the army were issued 38 revolvers with shoulder holsters during and after vietnam
I had two sargesnts who first yours in Nam was around 1966 and they were still using Thompson machine guns. They used 45 caliber ammunition.
Not sure about the barrel length on the .38.
But it did stir up a story from the 1980's Chicago Police.
The police had a $20 marksman test to keep your job.
Now, back then they could carry whatever they wanted. .357, .45, whatever. The test, through corruption trickling down from the top, could be taken two ways.
You paid $20, shot your target, and got scored.
Or, you paid $20, got your target. Clipped another $20 to it and handed it back to the rangemaster. The rangemaster pocketed the $20 and used a pencil to poke out a passing score.
It was the latter that resulted in a multicar police pursuit of a cabbie where the cabbie jumped out of his car, produced a handgun and shot at police. At point blank range.
The police returned fire.
Of the over 100 rounds expended by police, none struck the cabbie. Also, none struck the cab he was hunkered down behind. Tore up scenery, surrounding buildings, wounded bystanders.
The cabbie ran out of ammunition and surrendered.
The thing that galled police management is that of the over 100 rounds, not one hit an 8 foot by four foot (1.33 curator x .66 curator) cab at 10 yards. (5 curators)
So thereafter, police were only allowed .38 snubnose revolvers to limit lethality at range.
The reason the colt 1911 had 5 rounds in the mags even though the mags hold 7 rounds is because the 1911s were issued for law enforcement purposes at a time when the 5-shot revolver was the typical law enforcement weapon.
The colt 1911 was largely replaced by the Beretta M9 beginning in 1985 - though the 1911 and its varriants still remain in government service today, most notably with LAPD SWAT.
The .38 revolver round is typically used where one needs to be accurate without having to spend an undue amount of time training - the .32, the .357, and the .38 AKA the .380 are historically NYPD weapons before NYPD switched to semi- automatics.
As for the 40 mm grenade launchers, they were used to deal with the kamakazie lessons learned in WW2.
You can (and should!) FOIA request those serials with Redstone Arsenal- then you will know for sure exactly where they went, including if any survived to get to CMP.
Round 3 of the CMP 1911 program had a lot of ex Navy guns go out, both my father and brother got Navy 1911s.
I think the shotguns and M79s were for ships self defense, m79 with tear gas if the ship is rushed at the pier and with concussive grenades if it is attacked by small boats. The shot guns would be used if the ship was boarded since it was less likely to damage equipment or people other than the attacker. M-14s were used for firing shot lines for underway refueling or taking on stores by high wire. There wasn't an adapter for the M-16 that I know of.
The Navy had used .38 Special for decades. Especially the SP, and for guard duty.
they re issued the M-14's because the ship was NOT going to go ashore, and they saved the New guns ( m-16's) for the front line troops. There is also a thing that any of the other services could 1-1 requisition the weapons if both C.O.'s would allow it. ( temporarily trade a m-14 for a m-16) in case the marines ashore wanted the longer range of the 7.62/308w. to reach out and touch someone. not common, but it is allowed. (Plus the Marines would return the weapon in a better status than what they received it, ALWAYS a plus.)
An AN/M8 is a smoke grenade. The 22 Cal Colt "Ace" is a 22 version of the 1911 made by Colt for the military at various times, where I believe the numbers you had on the screen would indicate that they were 1945 production examples, but I would have to dig through my library to be sure.
Let me clear up the mystery on the .45 ammunition allocation. For most of the 20th Century the US military issued five rounds of sentry ammunition only. In the case of the M1911-series pistols, the magazine was loaded with five rounds only because that was all the ammunition issued. The magazine was generally carried in the magazine pouch on the belt for reasons of safety--no ammunition in the pistol until authorized to lock and load.
Sometime before the 1990's the sentry ammunition allocation doubled to ten cartridges. Putting five rounds in each of two magazines made sense from an accountability aspect--because if one magazine had three rounds and the other magazine had seven, Murphy's Law means the wrong magazine would be grabbed. Again--no ammunition was in the pistol until authorized.
I saw a short pistol serial number in the .45 list--it may be a bookkeeping error because most M1911A1 pistols had 7-digit serial numbers.
Not included in the ship's small arms inventory would be the flag officer's personal weapon, which could have been a Colt M1903 pistol in .32 caliber.
The .38 caliber revolvers were probably on hand to issue to air crew. Naval aviators were trained on .38 caliber revolvers and usually drew their revolvers from their squadron when needed, but if my information is accurate, aviators attached to ships didn't draw a revolver when deployed--the ship provided the aircrew revolvers. Most peacetime sorties were done without the aircrew drawing a sidearm--exception was patrols with nuclear weapons on the aircraft. There may have been some other functions for the New Jersey revolvers such as wear in civilian clothing while service as a courier or armed escort.
Speaking of .38 caliber revolvers, when I was attached to the USS Tripoli/LPH-10 from November 1977 to August 1978 I observed that the OOD in foreign ports wore a holstered .38 revolver on the quarterdeck.
The S&W Model 46 target pistols were probably for the New Jersey's rifle and pistol team. The Colt Ace was less accurate than the S&W and was probably used for pistol training.
I am not surprised about the M60 machine guns because the SAW (M249) in 5.56mm wasn't as effective on small boats as the 7.62mm round--and the M79 would have been used alongside the M60 for anti-boarding. I'd like to see a swarm of small boats try to board an Iowa battleship under steam. More effective for the assigned mission, already on hand when the limited number of M60 machine guns were going to Army and Marine infantry--as late as 1989 my US Army electronic warfare battalion had the M60 and not the M249.
The M14 was also used as a line throwing gun for bosun's chairs and refueling at sea. The M14 rifle had a mine clearing function though I'm not sure if the lookouts actually shot sea mines after the Korean War. If the M79 wasn't available. the M14 rifle with M76 grenade launcher could be used--the M76 seems to have been part of the line throwing gun system, too.
The M-47 grenade launcher could also fire signal and illumination rounds as well as a xm-688 round that could fire grapples and rope.
Where is the Ma Deuce? 50 Caliber is very good against a small boat. Our minesweeper had them in the 80's.
SOP military paperwork is awesome!
As far as the Navy and using older equipment go. Both my mom and dad had been in the Navy in the 80’s and early 90’s. They had been Corpsmen and during their training they had been building the forward resuscitative surgery system (FRSS). At which point they had been given sea rations from the 1940’s. This follows other cost cutting measures the Navy took that im sure my parents could talk about for hours. Many ppl think the U.S. military always has the latest and greatest toys, so to speak. While thats true in many cases, it’s not something that extents through the entire military for every service member. The Navy has a budget like everyone else and if they can find a way to save money, they usually do.. at least they did 40 years ago. Also, New Jersey frequently sailed along side my dad’s carrier on sea deployment. He was on the Ranger and wanted a BB, but never got it. He told me everyone wanted a BB.
M14s are typically a better line throwing rifle even today. Plus the M14 still soldiers on in specific roles
M-14s are still issued to US Navy warship because they have the capability of throwing lines between ships for underway replenishment, a capability they inherit from an M1 Garand's ability to launch rifle grenades. The M16/M4 does not have this capability (cartridge is too small to throw that much mass).
The Army's modernization program for M14s and M21s is straining Navy supplies, and the Navy has struggled to find a suitable replacement.
The M14s would also double as line handling rifles. They would send shot lines for UNREPs or RAS.
I know in the usaf we kept 38 revolvers around forever just to shoot blanks for live fire dog training to get them used to sounds.
M14 is 7.62/308 ability to express love at a greater distance same with M60, saw and M16 are chambered in 5.56/.223
The saw or squad automatic weapon is Chambers in 5.56 the same round as the M16 the M60s which is chambered in 7.62 x51 were still seeing service all the way up until the 90s when they started being replaced by the m240 bravos