Dependent Origination-How not to teach it
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- Опубликовано: 22 июл 2012
- Bhante Vimalaramsi talks about how NOT to teach Dependent Origination. And how to teach it based on the Nidana Samyutta.
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Thank you to this channel for single-handedly explaining Dependent Origination to me.
Dependent origination is simple. Energy neither created not destroyed it transforms from one form to another. When you hear the sound where does it goes? Everything impermanent it arises and passes away due to the laws of physics. Nothing truly disappears tho as energy cannot be destroyed, it goes back to its original state. All phenomena is like this. It appears and disappears, clouds appear and disappear human born then die all is like this. You were never born no will you ever die just change forms. Nothing ever was created all just changing appear and disappear. There is no begging and there is no end, all phenomena exist in appearing and disappearing.
Thank you so much, you have made my day!
Indeed, Its much easier to watch with a clear mind and attention what begins to arise.
Very interesting and important talk.
Hmm I had a theoretical break through in terms of understanding DO but I had been mostly reading from ignorance to suffering direction. But I can see how going the other way works. It would not only be simpler but also a logical way of thinking.
943 not sure Im followin?
Venerable Katukurunde Nanananda Maha Thero's set of 20 sermons on Dependent Origination (English translation available) provides an excellent review about this eternal truth of Paticcasamuppada.
I'm sorry but the "relaxation step" has kind of confused me. Relaxation does help me meditate, but I just confuse myself if I try to not "glue" my attention to my breathe. Basically, I don't understand the difference between a deep Jhana, and the first Jhana while letting go of fabrications. I find that to successfully KEEP my attention on my breathe after FORCING it there, I must relax. It's as though the relaxation step serves to soften the act of returning to my breathe. Like I'm ultimately training myself in optimal returning to the breathe. I would think the deep Jhanas actually require relaxation. Maybe I'll experiment with intense effort of concentration without relaxation to see if I can clarify the difference to myself.
The "not waiting for the thought to finish but instead letting it go" has been helpful though. Concentrating while being aware of thought verses concentrating while letting go of thought is the only distinction I'm able to make between meditation styles. Maybe you're talking about this kind of metta meditation you advocate though. That may be the source of my confusion.
Amen.
I like what Bhante has to say generally, but it seems to me that it would be helpful to teach it BOTH ways because each way touches on 1 of the 2 noble truths. Teaching it the "wrong" way teaches the second noble truth about the arising of suffering, whereas teaching it the way presented here teaches the third noble truth cessation of suffering. I think the mistake is a matter of emphasis - that it is more important to point out dependent origination in a way that shows the cessation of suffering rather than the arising of suffering. If the "wrong way" was presented by itself, then it would indeed be wrong because it would only present the 1st and 2nd noble truth clearly in dependent origination, but not the 3rd noble truth.
what book is being read from here?
SN Samyutta Nikaya translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi
@@davidjohnson8218 thank you good sir 🙏
:)
The 'wrong way' refers to the wrong way of living. The 'right way' refers to the right way of living (holy life). SN 12.3 is not about the wrong & right way to teach. It is about the wrong & right way to practise & live.
No Barbarra - It does not refer to a wrong way of living. Please go pull out the samyutta nikaya S12.3 and read it again. It talks about how to teach dependent origination. You don't teach by how things arise but rather the ceasing of them.
Not so. If it was about how to teach it then Buddha would have never taught the forward arising & only taught the cessation.
***** I'd be careful to criticize his pali skills. He has a professor of Pali and lecturer at the Peradinya University in Sri Lanka as a student. Venerable Bhante Kusala read the Pali script (with no english translation) as Bhante read the English Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation. He corrected any errors or discussed meanings sometimes word by word as they went. Pali is can be interpreted differently depending on the context. Bhante V has visited the cave in Sri Lanka where the original pali scripts in palm leaves resided and were found and now are guarded carefully. He talke to the highest scholars to get to the meaning of what the Buddha taught. He wanted to know - for real- what the Buddha taught and was unwilling to accept anything that was accepted but not based on the suttas. Bhante Kusala currently is in a Harvard Program. www.dhammasukha.org/bhante-kusala-bio.html
***** Exactly. The Pali (below) literally states:"wrong path (micchāpaṭipadā)" & 'right path (sammāpaṭipadā)'. Patipada literally means 'way of walking'.
Sāvatthiyaṃ viharati…pe… ‘‘micchāpaṭipadañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi sammāpaṭipadañca. Taṃ suṇātha, sādhukaṃ manasi karotha; bhāsissāmī’’ti. ‘‘Evaṃ bhante’’ti kho te bhikkhū bhagavato paccassosuṃ. Bhagavā etadavoca -
‘‘Katamā ca, bhikkhave, micchāpaṭipadā? Avijjāpaccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā; saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṃ…pe… evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti. Ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, micchāpaṭipadā.
‘‘Katamā ca, bhikkhave, sammāpaṭipadā? Avijjāya tveva asesavirāganirodhā saṅkhāranirodho; saṅkhāranirodhā viññāṇanirodho…pe… evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hoti. Ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sammāpaṭipadā’’ti. Tatiyaṃ.
Begintosee The vast majority of Pali scholars do not understand Buddhism completely. Further, regularly using the PTS Dictionary will find numerous Pail terms translated into the same English meaning, which gives the impression Pali is not fully understood today by anyone. This shows the limited usefulness of Pali. Many individual Pali words have multiple meanings &/or nuances (eg. dhamma, sankhara, dukkha, nirodha, jati, etc). Choosing the incorrect meaning or nuance in a context will completely distort the teaching and the reality that is described by that teaching. Basically every well-known scholar, such as Bodhi, Thanissaro, Brahmali, etc, have mistranslations. The Burmese can be terrible. That Vimalaramsi has moved from school to school, often, shows the limited value of his Pali.
Shadu Shadu Shadu.
It is not necessary to say or add "headed by" aging-&-death. All suffering is the inevitable aging-&-death of whatever manifestation of clinging-becoming-created-self-identity (birth) that has previously arisen. For example, if the mind suffers over the loss of $100, this is the aging-&-death-sorrow-lamentation-pain-grief-despair of the former 'owner' of $100. Believing "I am the fortunate owner of $100" is becoming & birth. Despairing over the loss of $100 is aging-&-death.
The full saying is Aging and Death, Sorrow, lamentation, pain grief and despair as you have here. We are talking about the states of mind that are happening each moment you are alive. If you lose $100 there may be despair but certainly not death. Nor is there aging. When the knowing you have lost $100 arises in your mind this is followed by a Feeling, Then Craving arises which can be described as one of these painful feelings above. the craving and the feeling are combined to form these emotional states - the clinging is the thinking about them, and then Bhava or Habitual tendency or Behavior is what you are going to do about this Loss. And then Birth you do it.
There is death of the "self-idea". The mind once believed: "I own $100". After the loss of $100, that 'self-idea' dies. Please read the suttas, which refer to "birth" and "death" of the idea of "beings". "Birth" & "death" do not refer to physical birth & death. The idea of "self" is born and the idea of "self" dies, which results in despair. Despair occurs as a result of aging-&-death.
To quote SN 23.2: "Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being (satta)"
To quote SN 12.2: "And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth...of the various beings [satta] in this or that group of beings, that is called birth. Now what is aging and death? Whatever aging...of the various beings [satta] in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death...of the various beings [satta] in this or that group of beings, that is called death..".
Anyway. Try to understand & consider other points of view rather than cling to one guru. Best wishes until we meet again.
BarbarraBay The thing is here is that Bhante has a method to actually see the dependent origination process arise. as you progress you eventually see each of the 12 links themselves. It is not just a point of view but you really see in your own mind the actual process. Many other teachers tell you how it works but none give you a method to actually see the process. I would invite you to try this just for a week at his center. In just a week you would be able to see back to the nama rupa link at least. It is fascinating and a real experiece to watch how craving arises in the entire 12 links. You seem to know a lot about so why don't you come and see if it works like he says. Its really interesting! david
Why is this monk using the term "habitual tendency" for becoming (bhava)? Habitual tendency is included in ignorance (refer to MN 9) & is already manifesting in formations pre-contact & in craving post-contact.
Habitual tendency is the link before Birth of the Pattica Samupadda. Ignorance is the first link. Craving is in all the links or taking things personally but Bhava is where you decide what actions are available based on the situation. Birth is where you take the action. This is on the momentary arising of the links of DO. We do not subscribe to the multiple lifetime interpretation of DO. That is not in the Suttas-only the understand of individual links and how they arise in your mind.
The link before birth is called becoming (bhava). In Pali, the word for habitual tendency is 'anusaya' (refer to Anusaya Sutta). I referred you to MN 9 about 'asava', which flow-out from habitual tendency. I will quote for your benefit: "With the arising of the taints there is the arising of ignorance. With the cessation of the taints there is the cessation of ignorance. There are three taints: the taint of sensual desire, the taint of being and the taint of ignorance. With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of the taints. With the cessation of ignorance there is the cessation of the taints." Or I will quote MN 148: " If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one relishes it, welcomes it, or remains fastened to it, then one's passion-obsession [habitual tendency] gets obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of pain, one sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats one's breast, becomes distraught, then one's resistance-obsession [habitual tendency] gets obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling, then one's ignorance-obsession [habitual tendency] gets obsessed." This, again shows habitual tendency is not becoming. "Becoming" refers to the manifesting or development of the 'self-idea' & 'birth' refers to its maturity or complete birth.
Charles Mendeley Dependent origination is not about how nama-rupa comes physically into existence. Physically, nama-rupa (mind-body) come into existence via reproduction, sperm, ovum, etc. Dependent origination is about how ignorance & resultant formations mentally condition/affect the mind-body, such as, for example, when the mind-body are affected by lust, anger, fear, etc. Dependent origination is about how sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief & despair comes to be (rather about how life comes to be).
Charles Mendeley For example, the nama-rupa is sitting or lying around doing nothing. Then suddenly restlessness & agitation arise, the body becomes disturbed & the mind thinks: "I am bored. Let's watch TV". This is an example of how ignorance & resultant formations condition/stimulate the nama-rupa. Or spontaneously, the body-mind (nama-rupa) become sexually aroused. This is an example of how ignorance & resultant formations condition/stimulate the nama-rupa. Consider animals, how suddenly there is a mating season when the female animals develop 'heat'. We do not regard animals as consciously intentionally generating sexual thoughts (as we do of ourselves or humans). Instead, we see animals clearly that, during a certain season, their nama-rupas spontaneously are affected/afflicted/stimulated/aroused by sexual desire. This is an example of how ignorance & resultant formations condition/stimulate the nama-rupa. When the translators use the term "volitional formations" for the 2nd link, they are wrong. These formations are not volitional, just like the sexual formations of animals, in nature, are not volitional. These formations arise from ignorance & the underlying tendencies (asava, anusaya) as described in MN 9. When young people reach puberty & begin to spontaneously have sexual dreams & thoughts, these formations are not volitional. Instead, they are driven by underlying tendencies (anusaya), i.e. instinct.
Charles Mendeley Charles - look up his talks on MN38 which centers on Dependent Origination and the whole process. Also make sure to look at MN 111 and how the jhana process works and you develop the mind to actually see the 12 links. And then come to the center and see it for yourself! david