How The American EV Charging Landscape Is Changing In 2024
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- Episode 441: Join two enthusiastic podcast hosts as they dive into EV infrastructure. Francie joins Chase from the GridConnections podcast to discuss the past and present state of EV infrastructure, the challenges we face, and who will lead the installation game of new DC fast chargers. Also discover why Level 2 charging is important and explore much more in this exciting episode!
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Thanks again for having me on Francie! Loved the conversation and looking forward to many more!
Also, the episode I recorded with Francie (kind of a part two to this convo) goes live Weds morning at 8:30 am pst.
I think a big problem is getting charging for people who live in apartments.
True, and I think that bottle neck is 100% the apartment complex ignorance. Every apartment I've ever lived has several rows of parking spaces that are never used. It would be nothing for them to put even a couple 60kW DCFC in there. Charge 55c/kwh with heavy idle fees to promote turnover. Charge a $100 flat fee on lease for access... and have an entirely new revenue stream. Or if not that, Spend 1 month of someone's rent and buy 4 wall connectors and set them up to charge also. Cheap.
@@DblOSmith lots of apartments are quite parking constrained and you end up having an assigned parking space. It seems like we need a solution that’s affordable enough to be deployed at almost every parking place. Or let’s say a plug that’s accessible by 3 or 4 spaces and repeat that coverage throughout the whole parking garage or parking lot.
@@DblOSmithdo you have any idea how much DCFC's and all the infrastructure costs. If you are in an apartment lots of L2 charging spots would be a better solution that is more affordable, either way it should be charged based on usage + tow people who park and don't charge.
@@skyemalcolm Every parking space option is unnecessary and would be too expensive, IMO. The people with EVs are going to park anyway. Additional parking wouldn't be needed.
@@DblOSmith my point is you need the solution to be so affordable that it could logically scale to eventually a large percentage of parking spaces. Like in my garage at my suburban house I don’t have EV parking space, I just have a two car garage and the Tesla Wallbox can reach either space.
40:00 I feel like this is a bit of a copout on the part of the utilities. A few months back, I visited an EVgo - GM Energy Pilot charging location that was under construction. I spoke with the crew, and they were done that day with the fences coming down. According to them, these EVgo sites take less than 30 days to build, including the canopy. Also, the utility already had the power drop/transformer for the site in their yard, ready for installation. However, here we are, nearly 4 months later, and the site still has not been powered on.
There's a lot of he said, she said blaming going on in the industry right now, but from what I've seen so far, the utility companies and local permitting/site inspectors appear to be the most responsible for the major delays. Some of them seem to actively take joy in delaying public charging sites, and Electrify America has called this out. The only CPO that appears to get any sort of special, priority treatment is Tesla, to the point that I wonder whether there is some funny business going on behind closed doors.
Beuracratic bs & MONEY TALKS
Yup, I love the closed loop spoken of by Chase that essentially gives you autonomy with EV ownership. Most people have a chance to produce their own energy with solar or other renewable energy sources, very unique in the transportation world!
Vandalism is a big problem. Cables being cut. We were very nearly late returning our Turo Model Y to the SeaTac parking dropoff because we had troubles finding supercharging that wasn’t behind paid parking, and the last supercharger site before the airport (Tukwila) had three stalls with cut cables. I called these into Tesla, which was appreciative of the info. The site was packed with cars charging, barely keeping up with the demand, so there was a penalty at return because we only got to a bit more than 50%, rather than the required 80-90%. There will have to be a way to mark a stall with a cut cable as not available. Second, there is going to have to be a way to stop the cable cutting - Tesla will likely put in new cables at Tukwila, but how long before they get cut again? I’m thinking of checking all the supercharger sites here in the Sacramento area once every week or two, and looking for cut cables.
When EV's became hyper political, the vandalism started. Media covered it as "stealing copper..."
The only answer to cable cutting and other vandalism is to have all public-charging stations be like gas stations -- full-time attendants and canopies.
Full-time attendants would provide extra safety to both equipment and customers, while also selling food/drink, maintaining windshield-washing supplies, giving in-person ability to pay by credit card or cash always, trouble-shooting problems for customers having troubles charging, making sure that broken-down charging "pumps" are promptly fixed, etc.
@@panameradan6860 There’s no need for attaendents and that expense. Tesla has 99.5% uptime and there are no charging issues because a you simply plug in and walk away. That’s why all the other EV makers are so behind, requiring credit cards, authentication, identifying the charger, etc. Now if there are vandals, it’s just a police issue.
Thank you Francie and Chase! Great discussion!
@@newscoulomb3705 thanks Eric!
I have two Tesla cars now a 3 and Y but I love what Rivian is doing, I think they are great looking vehicles and have some cool features. However, if I needed a car right now and not buying a Tesla I would lease. The simple reason is other EVs don't have the new standard charge connector yet. When all EVs have the NACS connector I'll feel free to buy any of them. So Tesla may have made a mistake buy offering automakers the use of their chargers.
CCS is here to stay... Too many cars have the CCS ports now, and more CCS cars and charging stations are coming online daily. The huge US federal infrastructure bill has been amended to include installation and maintenance of both CCS and NACS charging. The issue is to make CCS charging stations as reliable as Tesla has made theirs -- not to go all-in on NACS. There are some significant pluses to CCS over NACS if you ignore the reliability of the CCS stations generally in existence. We'll get there eventually.
26:00 I'm definitely in the camp that believes that there is a disproportionate emphasis on DCFC. I don't think we currently have nearly enough DCFC yet, and I don't think those DCFC chargers are distributed well enough. However, that being said, maybe the better way of framing it is: The build out of L2 AC charging has been underemphasized, especially in comparison to DCFC.
Also, that 35,000 DCFC appears to include the Superchargers, which I still do not consider truly "public." If the Superchargers were open to all EVs, then I think that number of DC chargers would be appropriate for the current population of EVs. That being said, a 100% transition to EVs would likely only require that 35,000 number to maybe quadruple, so 140,000 DCFC nationwide would likely support a 100% transition to EVs.
@31:00 We see a lot of this going on in Norway now. Existing sites with old 50kW chargers get expanded with newer 150-300kW+ chargers depending on demand.
A CPO that is quite common around me upgraded a site not to far from here. It was one 50kW ABB Terra 54 and a Delta 150kW, that can charge two cars. They added 5 of the ABB Terra 360 units, and it was clearly needed. I stopped there earlier this summer to charge and almost all of the 360kW chargers were in use.
These have 4x90kW modules so they do become 180kW if both cars ask for more than 90kW, but that is plenty for most cars anyway.
The same location also have 12 V3 Superchargers.
@@Gazer75 But inn addition they also started to install 50kW DC fast chargers as destinasjon chargers, f.eks. Mer A/S have in 2024 removed all AC stalled and installed 12 CCS/CHAdeMO DC fast chargers in a shopping center north of Bergen.
Other charge operators have installed 60/30 kW chargers in 2024 at shopping centers.
So 30-60 kW has become the new short term destinasjon charging.
Power slitting for highway/freeway charging is the way to go. It nice compromise between number of stalls, throughput and demand service charges (nor: effekt prising).
@@MichaelEricMenk I guess they have to find a use for old working 50kW chargers :)
No idea how Mer is able to stay in business with the prices they have. Mer sites are usually empty when I look at them.
@@Gazer75 They installed new chargers that are mounted on the walls... The three DC chargers that were there before were always occupied and the AC stalls were normally unoccupied.
Charging at Home/Work and at hotels is key to EV ownership. Like Chase said, installing L2 is easy and far less cheaper. I can charge 5 EVs at 20 amps or faster at my house right now. Why workplaces don't add L2 chargers is beyond me.
Charging at work makes a lot of sense. But, I can see why some businesses would be reluctant to install it. Part of the problem is that most EVs charge at home, so the number of people that would really need workplace charging is extremely small. It also depends a lot on the industry. For example, Amazon has tons of EV chargers in its offices for the engineers, but has none in its warehouses for the minimum-wage workers. This is something where I think government incentives could go a long way.
I'll also add a 3rd place where I think access L2 charging is very important, and that's commuter park and ride lots for public transit. This is very similar to workplace charging in that the cars sit there all day while the driver is at work, but you have a single parking lot providing access to a whole bunch of employers. Of course, this won't work for everybody, but there are definitely some people out there for whom it will work, and the parking areas are controlled by government agencies, so the chargers don't need to be turning a profit. The tricky part is how to avoid rampant cable theft.
@@ab-tf5fl You must not live in an area that has a lot of apartments nor have kids getting ready to enter the workforce. One reason for workplaces to add L2 charging is for recruitment purposes. I have 3 kids (24, 22, 20) . my 24 year old wanted an EV, but was going to be renting. Having a workplace charger would have made a difference and she might have chosen one company over another if they had chargers.
11:25 EVgo was actually part of that Phase 1, though they were operating under the NRG brand at the time. It was basically, Blink, ChargePoint, and EVgo at that point. In fact, some of EVgo's build outs in the early to mid 2010s (Freedom Stations) were covering corridors that even Tesla wouldn't support until their big Supercharger push and expansion in post-2018. That's why the Tesla CHAdeMO adapter was so crucial for Tesla owners who were traveling away from some of the major interstate corridors. In fact, one of the reasons EVgo has been struggling so much is because they are still having to maintain, pull, replace, upgrade, etc. charging hardware that is 8, 10, or even 12+ years old at this point.
Great job Francie
The mystery of why new DC charging takes so long to get installed is a mystery. In my area, Electrified America has had four new 350kW chargers installed at a major grocery store for over two-years that still have not been turned on. During this same two-year period, Tesla has installed four new Supercharging sites in my area with a total of 64-250kW ports, 38-72kW ports. Obviously, the problem is not the utility since Tesla has had no problem installing new Superchargers with the same utility companies.
We need more on site charging 22kW is more than enough for workplaces, shops.
Petrol stations are promoted by oil producers or refiners, yet utilities are playing essentially no role in EV charging because it doesn't provide the high rate of return PSCs guarantee them. Utilities should hoin with EV manufacturers to build out a more robust, extensive and reliable network.
and don't forget that automakers should be a part of that team; they're losing lots of BEV sales now because they are delinquent in acting like Tesla did in being an active player in the charging-station infrastructure.
You are right Chase. Francie is a rock star
Thanks for the update. I'm trying to get more EV Chargers installed too!
It took over a year for Xcel Energy to approve my solar panels on my own house - no wonder it takes a while to get power to a DCFC.
Great stuff guys, thank you.
I have no idea why Tesla hasn't partnered or created coffee shop charging stations. Apparently, Benz and Volvo partnered with Starbucks (Is that IONNA?), but yeah. A small coffee shop with lots of tables, outlets, good wifi would be a great stop that I would prioritize.
@@lesliefranklin1870 lmao. No
For me the biggest befit for Tesla is no dealerships. For the consumer the dealer model is disaster.
Why? I don't like ordering an expensive machinery like an EV and never even have tested one.
A dealer is motivated to fix warranty work because they get paid by the manufacturer. When the manufacturer is the one to fix warranty issues and pay for it, they don't care. Hence Tesla and Rivian still suck.
Level 1 only works if you're charging at home, overnight, and only need a few miles. Great for an about-town errand car. Also maybe at a friend's house overnight. Calling them out to EV-skittish people feels dishonest. They're not really adding to the conversation other than "an EV CAN slow charge anywhere there is a plug, you can't have a gas pump in your driveway". These are what anti-EV people use to say "charging your EV takes 3 days!"
Level 2 AC is named properly by Tesla -- Destination Charging. It is great where you're parked for at least a couple of hours. That's home, work, school, hotels, theme parks, national parks, dedicated parking lots in cities, park-and-rides, etc. These honestly should be mostly < 40A. If you're there for 6-8 hours, there isn't any benefit by charging in only 2-3. Slow down, save the infrastructure cost. The higher speed (48A+) L2 AC could be good at places like Costco/Sam's/BJ's, movie theaters, and the like. They don't add much unless you're there for more than an hour. Lower power DCFC (20-50 kW) could fill this niche.
Level 3 (DCFC) is for road trips. This is when people need to charge while going somewhere far away. Taking the kids to University, road trips, traveling sales and service people who put 300+ miles a day on their car. These people are NOT going to be served by a 48A L2 AC charger at a mid-point stop. They don't want to sit there for hours before they can continue. This is why the gov't incentives on installing DCFC chargers are focused on 150KW+ and within a mile of an Interstate exchange.
I knew about the EV charging infrastructure challenges going in as an apartment dweller without home charging
Fortunately I don't drive my '23 Bolt EUV much nor far, less than 20 miles a week
I have a tad over 1K miles after about nine months
Another great guest; also, your interview style is PERFECT for Chase - drop a great question, and “hit play”. 😆 In re EV/electric future - “First a trickle, then the FLOOD”. Anyone now paying-attention will see the inevitable, and I do hope our Legacies can solve their “cultural ICE issues” real quick, or goodbye. ALSO, A good interview subject for you is Walter, @ “Network Architect” who does excellent updates on the nation-wide charging infrastructure, and also drives his Caddy Lyric on road trips. Ongoing KUDOS TO YOU, and to the OoS Dynasty. 🫡👍👍❤️
Too long, like so much from the Out of Spec complex. Look at the title again and try and find where in the hour vid anything close to a succinct answer is provided about 2024.
Thank You for All that you are doing for our Planet Earth....
Peace.. Shalom.. Salam.. Namaste .. 🙏🏻 😊 ✌ ☮ ❤ 🕊
I would definitely like to learn more about how battery electric vehicles will support a more stable, green, clean grid.
Love keeping the outtake in!
Maybe on the east coast but the rest of the US is missing some big swaths missing especially for non teslas
I wish there was more pay-per-kWh municipal level 2 charging in multi family parts of NJ
OEMs couldn't pivot. For decades, they sold cars, not a way to fuel them. That was someone else's problem to solve. Now lets sell EVs. OEM's forgot that there were very few companies that had solved the "how to fuel them" problem. That , in a nutshell, is where we are today.
I think the fuel station model is the way to go and it is what is going to catch on because it is convenient and what people are used to you will see alot more circle k and pilot flying j stations out there and soon other brands will follow also level 2 charging needs to be addressed for apartments which I think should be a fund that all the automakers contribute to to build out the level 2 network at apartments
yea, most QTs in the southeast near highway exits are on huge lots with tons of space, no brainers to use them and into the infrastructure vs some of the current "crap" hole stops out there. The gold gold standard would be rest stops on highways, but I'm under the understanding it is "illegal" to sell goods and resources at these stops.
@@traubgatorand, there are few amenities at rest stops. No where for a meal, no shopping, ...
I think home charging is always going to be cheaper for those able to afford it. But, the fuel station model still has to exist, as there will always be use cases where home charging is insufficient (e.g. traveling).
The tricky part is figuring out a business model where the charging providers earn enough money to make a profit, in spite of most EV drivers avoiding them the vast majority of the time. Along travel corridors, EVs with access to home charging have no choice but to use the public charging anyway.
But, in cities, you've got a chicken-and-egg problem. A charging provider needs a critical mass of nearby EV drivers who lack home charging in order for the charger to be profitable. Yet, the time and money incentives provide strong incentive for anyone with an EV capable of charging at home to charge at home. And, as EV charging has still not yet reached price or convenience parity with gasoline for those who require public charging for *all* of their daily driving, the incentive for people without access to home charging remains in favor of continuing to burn gas. Of course, some people who lack home charging may choose to get an EV anyway. But, that's not currently enough to make charging profitable for the operator.
It is possible that, over time, prices drop and charging speeds increase to the point where even using chargers like gas stations for daily driving reaches price/convenience parity with gas (at least in areas with expensive gas), with the ability to home-charge simply becoming a bonus, rather than a necessity. But, it will likely take many years before that happens.
@@ab-tf5fl no doubt home charging is the greatest thing ever. That alone is worth the price of admission in my opinion. I tell ICE people now, if you could wake up every morning and your gas tank was at 3/4 of a tank full and you never again would have to get gas for daily commuting, would you do it. And when they say yes, I tell them, that is EV ownership, now go get one.
@@guythall in Georgia it's usually vending machines and free coffee inside if you sign up and you get a free map.
I have several friends that have trucks and a ev commuter, the ev commuter costs less with insurance, monthly payment, and electricity than just the gas for their truck. Where i live the thrid car is becoming the EV... then the second car, not the truck though. There are only three houses in our neighborhood of 200 that have gone all EV that i am aware of.
Problem with all other EVs other than new Teslas is they are always upsold while tesla has all the options.
My neighbors have been considering an EV... they asked me about the bz4x and i could give a yeah you should buy it. They have even kind of looked at a tesla, i doubt they will leave the Toyota family this time... but for their next car if toyota doesnt get it together id bet they would consider a non toyota
I think we need way more ~50kw DC chargers at shopping centres and restaurants with discounted power if you're a customer at that business. If you want to shop or eat, then 50kw is fine.
You do all that in an hour? Most popular EVs have 60-75kWh batteries.
@@Gazer75 Most EVs are recommended to charge to 80% and they won't plug in at 0% either, so even with a 100kwh battery, you'd go from 20% to 80% in 1.2 hrs. Similarly an EV with a 75kwh battery that plugs in at 15% would go to 80% in an hour at a 50kw charger.
Great conversation! So many things impact EV adoption. There is currently a lot of discussion about price parity of the EV and an ICE vehicle. I had hoped that you would have discussed the lack of price parity of charging and gas fuel. Circle K and 7-Eleven are typically around 43 cents per kWh. Compared to my 30 mpg Honda, that makes the gas equivalent price for my DC fast charge $4.31 per gallon. If I was driving a 45 mpg hybrid, the gas equivalent price increases to a price of $6.47 per gallon. While I agree that the CPOs need to make money, it would be useful to understand if this is caused by the utility companies pricing and policies (like demand charges) or overly aggressive capital investment recovery. What all goes into setting the price? EVgo has gotten very expensive in FL. I can pay 30 cents per kWh at FPL but pay up to 59 cents at EVgo. Pilot is also all over the map charging 50 cents in GA but 70 cents in KY. Does the local electric provider and their demand charges really make all of the difference or are there local regulations causing these disparities? GA recently started allowing sale of electricity by kWh so our DCFC stations are changing from per minute pricing to per kWh pricing. Thanks again. I look forward to checking out Chase's podcast.
Great question and would have loved to cover this! Only so much time on the episode and from the comments, maybe some didn’t like how much I talked anyways 😂 There can be various factors like demand costs, ongoing maintenance, etc., but aggressive capital investment recovery sums it up perfectly and is definitely the most common in my experience. It’s part of the reason we’ve also seen prices from existing locations go up this past year. When the market was hotter and EV adoption was expected sooner there was a longer time horizon to see the return. Since the market has become less bullish, investors and others are looking for a more clear and immediate return.
It is a big problem that the US fuel prices are so low. It removes a big incentive to move to EVs. In Europe you pay 6.5-8.5 USD/gallon of gasoline. Diesel is maybe 0.5 USD cheaper on average.
I think improvements to the EV charging hardware itself will go a long way in bringing costs down. Cheaper chargers = lower costs. Chargers that last longer and require less maintenance = lower costs. Assuming batteries get cheap enough, battery buffers to avoid demand charges will also mean lower costs. It all adds up.
I’m in the facebook group Tesla tips and tricks and a lot of people are constantly arguing about what “always be charging” means. Tesla apparently recommends this.
I'm torn between the Tesla model y ,EV6 and ionic 5
Don't be silly. Tesla tech and charging is generations ahead. Nacs port too. Fsd 12.5.1 is so good.
@@grahamstefaan I'm aware, But where I'm at, having ventilated seats and vehicle to grid is a bigger selling point. I drive maybe 20 miles a day and I don't need the software. And I can only buy used so the new Tesla model 3 with the ventilated seats I can't afford.
@@newdawnalex lease a Nissan leaf then. 2y lease total cost is like $'1800.
FRANCIE is the BBBEST. Better w/Jordan
How serious is AUDI with an illuminated CHECK OIL dash light in th software realm ???
I have been interested in evs since nineteen hundred and eighty-one. I was an electronics technician and was doing scheduled maintenance on the ship's radar antenna and finished early and just got to thinking... electric motors are so much more efficient so why don't we have any electric cars.....hmmmm..oh, the battery technology wasn't practical.
Since I have always been interested in the sciences, from the Latin for knowledge, i have never bought into the male bovine excrement about anthropomorphic climate change. Or rock oil, which is what petroleum actually stands for comes from fossils, the Germans were making oil from coal way way back during WW2 and it doesn't take millions and millions of years.
I am disappointed by Toyota, the company that makes some of the best ice vehicles has been left behind in the future of cars
well they lead in hybrid..which is good too
In the future I expect there will be some EV chargers that are branded from some small company that will price gouge. Like those creepy ATMs you don't dare use. The best way to prevent that is to make there are legit ones everywhere.
After 7 mins of him going on and I, I gave up
I do love talking about EVs and EV infrastructure 🤷♂️ Was there anything in particular or were you looking for a shorter podcast episode in general versus the longer 1:1 format podcast style?
The ultimate goal needs to be universal access regardless of who builds and operates the charging infrastructure.
My EV road tripping experience has that I am ready to take a break well before the car needs charging. This leads to more frequent charging stops but of shorter duration. That amounts to 15-20 minute stops which I view as a benefit not a burden.
I don't believe Level 2 chargers are a viable options when traveling. I have had an EV for 3 weeks now and tried multiple chargers. Level 2 chargers are way too slow and frustrating. I think they are great at hotels and employment locations but that's about it. Even when at a mall or retail store, a Level 2 only gives me about 9 miles per hour charge rate. Not nearly enough to make transitions to EV attractive for the average driver.
I guess in the US with the big trucks and batteries well over 100kWh AC charging might not be the best option. These big battery EVs should have 22kW on board charger by default at least.
Problem is DC charging is often to fast to do any kind of extended stop for dinner or something. It would have to be max 50kW, and even then most of the popular EVs are like 60-75kWh. So DCFC would take maybe an hour for most if the battery is not almost empty.
I generally agree. But, in a rural charging desert with no DCFC around whatsoever, having L2 available is still a lot better than having nothing. Yes, it's very slow. But, if you only need an extra 5-10% to make it to a DC fast charger, it's tolerable, provided there's decent amenities around.
But, you are right that on those rare occasions where I have plugged into an L2 for 30 minutes to put in just enough to make it a fast charger, I would have much rather simply plugged into a fast charger at that location to begin with.
Just buy a Tesla... All the rest of this is dumb.
Your guest said "EA kinda paying the bill for things it may have done. that were frowned upon by the US govt". Once he said this, I had to stop listening because this guy just showed his ignorance about the EV infrastructure business. VW broke the law by deliberating making vehicles that poisoned the air we all breathe. EA was not the only option VW had, but it was certainly part of its punishment, and it would not have invested so much money in EA if not for its crimes.
Dude, get over yourself. Martyn Lee has characterized EA more than once as the result of “You’ve done a very naughty thing, VW”. Does this mean you don’t listen to the Batteries Included or EV News Daily podcasts? 🤦♂️
Hi! I definitely agree with you. Just speaking on the spot, it was easier to summarize the whole EA saga that way than go down the whole VW/EA rabbit hole. That topic could easily be its own podcast episode.
@@GridConnections well said
Francie, love your podcasts, but you need to condense them to 30 mins. Busy people don’t have a hour to absorb the salient issues presented.
I’m busy but am fine with them as is.
Trump don’t like EV 😀
Yeah, I remember how much praise Biden gave Tesla... 🤦♂