Why EVERY Gold Dealer Should Have An XRF Machine
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- Опубликовано: 10 июл 2024
- Does your favourite gold bullion dealer have an XRF machine? If not, they really should. Michael explains why - www.bullionnow.com.au
Need to buy gold or silver in Melbourne, Australia? Come see Bullion Now for all your gold and silver bar and coin needs, now located right in the heart of the city! Need something a bit more special? Little Coin Shop has you covered with the best collection of collector's items!
And if you need to sell gold, silver or other precious metals... we pay 100% of spot price. To our knowledge, that's the best in the business.
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That XRF machine is $20,000 USD!!! Holy Didgeridoo! I have a modest collection and wanted to check everything but there goes that idea...lol. Great channel guys!
Yep... she's an expensive piece of machinery!
Yup xfr guns are expensive af.
@@BullionNow Expensive but could save your business.
Honestly, it is not that much as far as accurate laboratory testing equipment goes. It is far outside the average individual's budget, though. 😅
I am used to XRD testing, and the lab had a far more expensive machine than this XRF machine.
These videos are excellent. Definitely getting my next shipment of bullion through you guys. These vids help build trust. And that’s so important
Thanks so much mate! Look forward to your order. Feel free to call us on 1300 848 410 with any questions :)
That was fun to watch. Never seen one of those machines in action till now.
How deep does the scan go? What if it's gold sandwiching another metal?
It may be plated gold. About 10 years ago, Chinese bankers drilled into several gold bricks, but found that a third were plated with gold, their interiors were composed of tungsten. XRF devices are not infallible.
Just measure the geometry, volume and weight of that gold brick, then you'll have a specific density.
I mean, no need to drill that brick, gold has a specific density. if the interior was tungsten, then the size, volume, and weight of that brick would be different from an actual 99.9% gold.
@@parashit2181 tungsten has exactly the same density as gold... so no that does not work
Exactly. Tungsten has a 19.3 density. It is the only metal that has the same density. Iridium that has 22+ density, melted with a lighter element could also be 19.3 density. But as Iridium cost is 50% more than gold it's not a good option for scammers 😅
No loyalty amongst thieves.
The XRF does not "see" the plastic because it's made of carbon, hydrogen, and other light elements that don't fluoresce. In Canada, operating an XRF requires licencing, and the course teaches you this, as well as why detecting gold is especially difficult.
Why detecting gold is difficult?
Give me a short explanation please.
@@theMosh19 The x-ray emission lines of gold are too close to several other elements, so it's difficult to distinguish between them. Gold, for example, can be confused with arsenic, tungsten and zinc. The XRF manufacturers do offer specially-programmed XRF units for jewelers that will read out gold content, but because of this fundamental physics issue, it can be a bit of a shell game. People still use XRF units in gold exploration, but they don't look for gold directly - instead they look for the elements typically associated with gold.
@@105d11 Thank you for your answer. It looks like you know a lot about xrf.
So, in exploration, what is the element asociated with gold?
@@theMosh19
Commenting from US! Love your videos!
Great video ...plastics are actualy additivated sometimes , especialy strong gasbarrier plastics ;)
Grtzz geerts johny
7:03 Wouldn't mind a silver coin with some Palladium mixed in, I'll take that haha
@Blake : The Pd may be worth a bit more than your guess. Here's the price of XPD and the corresponding value of the measured sample.
Pd 1 ozt 0.00337 ozt
USD: $2,668.84 $8.99
AUD: $3,510.40 $11.83
This is applying the surface measurement of 0.337% Pd throughout the whole sample. As you may already know, the XRF only tests the surface of the sample, and the surface could be coated with material that affects the sensor readings.
@Blake: Read the last paragraph of my comment above.
Great video, very informative.
Liked and subbed. I want one! They are too cool.
6:00 Any idea if that one was struck by the Canadian Mint? Looks like our reverse proof finish and packaging.
I thought XRF only samples the surface of specimens ? A few hundred microns at best. I think they use a non-destructive acoustic test method to check gold bars are 99.99% pure gold. The speed of sound through a material being a characteristic for the material under test.
There is an article about XRF penetration depths on horiba.com. A company that sells XRF machines. The article says penetration depth using XRF can be up to several millimeters when using very high energy Xrays and the test sample is of low density. But when the test sample is a high density material ( eg. Gold ) the penetration depth is only a few microns they say. Also XRF cannot distinguish between gold and zinc because the spectrum peaks overlap says Olympus on a RUclips video of theirs. Olympus also say they don't recommend using XRF machines to test for gold.
I completed a Master's degree in Instrumental Analytical Chemistry 30 years ago. That limitation of XRF that it can only sample the surface of materials rang a bell, so I checked.
+1 i think your totally correct. less than 100 microns !!!
So this gold dealer is basically a dumb ass for not doing his research and could easily be scammed himself lol
so what would you recommend for something like testing nuggets?
I agree, but I though a high density materials are easier to be measured (size, volume, weight, etc). So, would the 99.9% of gold will be the same volume and weight on this earth?
If some scammers using tungsten materials inside a gold bar, its size would be different from a legit gold bar.
@@parashit2181 Wolfram has a density so close to the density of gold that you wouldnt be able to measure the difference except with very expensive laboratory equipment. However, wolfram can be easily detected with a strong magnet.
HI, Can you please provide one more test by stacking silver on top of gold. First by placing pure GOLD coin/bar, and then silver on top of the gold coin/bar - just want to see what the reading shows.
Hi Bullion Now, which do you tuink is better when it comes to gold, cast bars or coins? There’s a video circulating that govt can confiscate gold bars except coins and jewelries if worst things happen.
Thanks for the video....
Thanks for watching!
We can take it on tour 😂
I love it.
My coin dealer has an xrf machine and he reassured me that all gold sovereigns show up as 21.6 or 21.8 k in which was the case when I purchased my sovereigns, one showing up as 21.8 k and the other two showing up as 21.6 k. Is that standard?
Do you do international sales ? Latam ?
What good is this explanation without even touching the subject of penetration depth?
Agree. They speak for 20 minutes and do not discuss this most important issue. They just like to show off their toy and scare people. This machine is worthless for testing think plated fakes.
You guys are AMAZING in any way.
No... YOU are :D
That is very reassuring, do you test items prior to shipment to make they are genuine ? Or do you test them when you unbox a shipment your received to make sure it is what it says it is ?
We only buy from reputable wholesalers/distributers, but even so we randomly test everything that comes in. For example, if we get a monster of maples in... we open a few random tubes from the box and test a couple coins from each tube. When buying metal from a customer, we test EVERYTHING. Hope that helps!
Can you verify gold backs with this machine
What’s the model of the XRF?
Does it measure the entire bar of gold (not just the surface)?
Just the surface. A few microns deep.
$27,000 !!! Holy smokes. I am curious to know if any of my local dealers have one of those. I will find out 👍🏼
Definitely! I would be reluctant to buy from a dealer that didn't have one and use it consistantly.
@@BullionNow I would probably be only selling to dealers. When it comes to buying - I would always resort to the mint. Or at least the dealer that is officially affiliated with the mint.
This is why some shop in my country didnt use it....
@@BullionNowhow deep does penetrate? If you have a 1 kg 24k gold bar will it tell you if it's all the way? I'm looking to buy gold and I don't know much:)) thank you!
@
Bullion Now XRF only will go a few microns into the material. If there are other fillers in the bar you will not detect it with XRF... correct?
Yes, they talk about drilling into a gold bar to test inside, making sure it isn't just plated with gold.
I found the densities of gold (Au) and tungsten (W) to be quite similar, 19.3 g/cm^3 and 19.25 g/cm^3, respectively. This means a counterfeit gold bar may have a slug of tungsten inside (or be an alloy of Au and W), and then plated with a thick layer of 24K gold on the outside. The weight and volume will be nearly identical to a real gold bar (about -0.259% off). And both bars will pass the XRF scan until the inside of the bar can be tested. Hence, the drill.
The Sigma Metalytics PMV PRO can test bars up to 45 mm thick without having to drill inside. It doesn't use X-rays. The field it generates will penetrate into -- and even go through -- a bar to validate its alloy. It's non-invasive, and great for testing graded coins in slabs.
@@oahuhawaii2141 Thanks for replying, I did more research and XRF won't check more than the surface. I now have Sigma PMV Pro and other diagnostic tools. External bridge on Sigma Pro does up to 45mm through readings. Not sure what their just released device can do.
@@xephael3485: Great! You got the version that's their top product, the PMV PRO with Bridge and the 3 wands. The Bridge, as you know, can handle a thickness of 12.5-45 mm. There's a nice video from Sigma Metalytics demonstrating the Bridge on a thick Ag bar.
The new PMV PRO Mini has an adjustable arm. It handles up to 10 mm. Of course, it accepts the same wands used with their earlier products, and have the same depth performance.
The XRF is impressive in that it can figure out the composition of a sample's surface, listing the percentages of various elements. With the PMV PRO, you have to tell it what you're testing, and then it responds with a display, showing the measurement against an expected range; it isn't designed to tell you what's the content of an unknown alloy.
In another video, an XRF indicated the surface of an American Eagle was .999 gold. It's a counterfeit because an AE Au is 22K, or about .9167; the reading of .999 meant the bogus coin is plated with pure gold. Of course, the device didn't render the verdict; the operator had to know that fact.
I've heard reports that the PMV can be fooled by copper when testing for silver, so the size and weight of the sample must be determined to verify that the density matches Ag or not. Hard to do if it's slabbed, and opening the seal may void any certification.
I'm thinking of getting the Mini. I can't afford the XRF. To get the former, I can sell a Pt coin; to get the latter, I must sell my whole coin collection, leaving me with just the device, which I suppose I can rent out or get paid to test stuff. Oh, well. I don't have to worry about being zapped, or my cumulative radiation exposure.
@@oahuhawaii2141 thanks for your comment, it was informative. What's your opinion on the GVS Bullion Tester? Seems like another tool that can verify a packaged precious metal without opening it. I believe you can only order this in Europe.
@@stormforge68: I saw a drawing of the GVS Bullion Tester and watched a video from the company. It seems it's designed to weigh a large, powerful magnet of a known weight and magnetic strength. Mounted closely above the magnet is a platform to hold a sample to test; the platform isn't connected to the scale, so the platform and sample aren't being weighed. Gold is known to repel against a magnetic field slightly, so it will impart a small force against the magnet, making the scale read a higher weight. Tungsten (which has nearly the same density as gold) is attracted to the magnet, so will pull it up slightly, making the scale read a lower weight. This difference in behavior (and weight measurements) is what the GVS Bullion Tester relies upon to flag a sample as a fake.
Sounds interesting, but GVS doesn't say how thick a bar can be for its tester. I'm sure there's a limit. Let's say it was 1 inch, just to make it easy to do a thought experiment. If I had a 5"*4"*3" bar of gold, there's a 3"*2"*1" region within that bar which can't be tested. That's 10% of the bar. That region can be filled with tungsten.
I'm sure the GVS Bullion Tester is designed to go deeper than 1 inch.
Anyway, I saw a good video from another person (perhaps Silver Vault). He states that metal alloys and pure metals all have their own unique set of physical properties. A counterfeiter may be able to produce a sample that mimics 1 or 2 properties of a precious metal coin or bar, but never 3 or more. Thus, always use tests that cover a range of properties, and make sure you understand what each can and cannot do. The common example is: a tungsten bar that's gold plated may pass the density test (weight/volume), but it won't pass the magnet test. Likewise, another alloy may pass the magnet test, but it won't pass the density test.
I brought a lot of 2020 China antique dragon coins from APMEX that measures 40mm which is different than what is stated from the China mint of 38.68mm. Is there any concerns that it's fake and why would there be different in measurement? It did all past the specific gravity test of 10.52. Thank you if you can answer my question.
Your question looks like it's not going to be answered....
@@davidarmstrong7628 yeah, think it's too complicated for average people (90% of population) . What is specific gravity?
How to purchase this device?
What other materials can it test ? Only other metals ?
It's fairly limited to metals. It will still tell us if it encounters something it doesn't recognise, Great for what we need to test, but not for shooting at everything!
What's the thickness range that one of these xrf can scan through for example is it only a 10-20 microns or would the machine be capable of scanning through a 1 kilogram bar?
It's a few microns.
@@BullionNow then how can it test an item that is just plated gold but not gold on the inside?
@@mkme2358: It can't, which is why the XRF is only one test in a series needed to verify gold.
BTW, the density of tungsten is 19.25 g/cm^3; it's 19.3 g/cm^3 for gold. So, a counterfeit coin/bar made of tungsten can be formed to closely match the weight, size, and shape of an authentic gold coin/bar, and then covered with a thick layer of gold plate.
@@oahuhawaii2141 - doesn't that mean that an XRF is no good for detecting well made fakes?
@@danielhicks: That's why some bullion dealers will drill into a thick bar to use the XRF to check the interior. A refinery may melt the whole bar and check a representative sample.
Of course, they can do other non-invasive tests first ...
Thanks for making this video
Our pleasure!
@@BullionNow Has the XRF machine ever gotten tricked by something, miscalibrations aside?
@@gabrielkawa432 Not that we're aware of.
@@BullionNow Thanks, I was curious about that.
Would have been cool to see you test a fake gold bar filled with tungsten in it. Neat tool!
Stand by for that. We're going to show some fakes that we have picked up with the XRF very soon.
It would fail to catch it. Gold plated tungsten fakes are circulating and the dealers relying on only XRF are missing them. Look for a dealer who uses ultrasound.
Ive read that this xray technique cant scan deep into the material. It only tests the surface.
i just bought some old TD johnson matthey bars 1 kilo bars and was concerned it didnt come with an assay certificate the guy XFR it in front of me but told me the old bars do not have certifies papers are there any scams they can pull with the XRF machine ? also the guys XRF machine would only got up to 999 not 9999 is there something fishy going on there mate ?
I would be curious to know the answer to this as well lol
Just a quick question , but how would it work with a glass vial of gold nuggets . Say like a prospector might have.
Test them mini nugget by mini nugget.
@@BullionNow Thank you for the reply. I was thinking of a general assay. :) I guess melting it all into an ingot then doing it would work better
@@MrWaco63 That works too! We have prospectors coming into the store who have done just that.
This tests for gold plating on a fake 22k or 24k gold coin right? Not just the outside coating?
An XRF machine tests 0.3 microns into the metal. If it suspects gold plating, it will show up on the scan and advise the operator to investigate further.
@@BullionNow This is the answer I was looking for, thanks. 0.3 microns is 0.0003 mm
@@VerifyVeracity: You're off by a factor of 10.
3 micron = 3 μm = 0.003 mm.
What if the gold bar/bullion is heavily gold plated let's say more then 50microns . Can it cheat this XRF machine or will the machine detect the gold plating and state whatever is inside the bullion ?? I am dealing with gold pallets and I have the same machine . The vanta c series . But I always smelt the pallets and then check them but most times I have to go to the fields to get these pallets and I'm worried if I can actually be ripped off . The pallets are small though measuring 2gms or 1gm each .
If you back the XRF up with a set of scales I don't think it would be cheated. The accuracy required to produce a fake bar with enough thickness of gold over another metal to "cheat" the XRF and still weigh the correct weight and be the correct size would be very close to impossible and quite expensive. If you are in doubt just let the XRF run longer. The longer it runs, the deeper it tests and the more accurate it becomes.
@@BullionNow thanks for the info . Really appreciate it
@@shaezee-pajama7316 No worries
@@BullionNow Tungsten could probably cheat the weight/density test, due to very close mass density figures for both gold & tungsten.....
@@albertanalyst123: Yes, the density for Au is 19.3 g/cm^3 and W is 19.25 g/cm^3 (-0.2597%). That means, to have the same weight, a bar of W only needs to be 1/385 thicker than a similar bar of Au. That fraction isn't noticeable.
I don't know any dealers in Sydney that have an XRF Analyser. Not even ABC Bullion!
Fire assay is safe than xrf for my opinion but that stuff works for initial assay
Some have a container you put your stuff in, necklaces, piles of coins and in a second get a full read out.
Great for our Chinese friends and their "counterfeit" coins and Bullion
These machines are AMAZING. Instantaneous exact, perfect readings. Would love one.
We would be without ours
4.50 “on the other side” which implies it only tests the surface and not the internal composition.
Hi fellas,
I've heard one of the weaknesses of the spectrometer is the lack of depth the X Rays penetrate. If one has a 1 oz bar or coin it can penetrate deep enough I understand....
However, I heard a kg or 10, 100 oz bar might be too thick to penetrate. What if you tested a a thickly gold plated tungsten bar? How far do the XRF's penetrate?
Although the XRF is a great tool, what are the few limitations?
@Blake thank you for the reply.
I took it upon myself to speak to the Olympus Western Canadian rep Bradley Nybo. Here is what he said about penetration of gold and silver ,
"In terms of depth of penetration, this technology will not penetrate to the depth you've mentioned. Silver would probably be 30-50 microns and gold would be somewhere between 10-20 microns. They are very accurate and fast machines."
So the Olympus rep has clarified the penetration on spectrometers is very limited. For gold 10-20 microns. To understand what this means, 10 microns is 1/100th of one mm, ie almost no penetration! To provide ironclad confidence, I think there needs to be 3 verification methods to ensure the gold is real: weight of coin or bullion, spectrometer, a magnet test, gravity test, and/or measuring dimensions. With PM's at historic heights and only going higher, you know scammers from China will be making better counterfeits. Having your products sold with a certificate incorporated into your receipts showing each coin has been tested with 3 of 5 methods to audit purity weight, and authenticity would be MASSIVE added value to your customers. Personally, if my receipts had product descriptions with metal, weight, serial number or coin date and the certificate of authenticity, I'd probably pay a bit more for the products.
I'm wondering if the sonic scanner offers accurate and better penetration analysis
Thoughts?
where do you purchase this machine? i have the 25k, i just need to know where to buy it? did you travel to their location to buy it in site to see it and test in person? or did you buy it online? i appreciate it. thanks
www.olympus-ims.com/en/innovx-xrf-xrd/ - This is the brand we have. Their top of the line model.
My friend is selling one for 12,000 xrf
@@Joetv86 where is he located at
At $27k, what are the chances someone might either spoof the device or make one that is a little more "generous" in its measurements? Any way to know as a customer?
Reputation of the brand of XRF. Check out Olympus. Big company.
Is there a charge to use the XRF machine?
No charge! We just ask that you don't bring in a mountain of things to test, as it can be time consuming.
An XRF only analyses the surface of the material, right? Its conclusive.
What about specific gravity test ? How much confirmation about the purity of gold can be provide by specific gravity test?
We're unsure sorry!
Would it detect if there was chocolate inside?
Best question so far. 😅
Please explain and demonstrate more about the machine and where we can buy it
It costs $27,000.
Bullion Now where can we buy it
@@extenous1 Specialist mining supply places. Try google.
I'm loving you guys and this is a great lil video so I went to the site to check it out... I wouldn't consider a 30-40% price before tax a "Low premium" lol...
You must be thinking in USD. Our prices are in AUD.
Hi there, can XRF machine 100% sure it is a 5Oz pure silver bar? Or it is only works for coins ? Thanks
At 14% gold, that wasn't gold plated. It was gold filled. Big difference. ;)
I have the 2021 desktop model which is very portable and far safer to use for 13,500 u.s. They have come way down in price
Oh that's really good to know...and actually a blessing! lol 👍😉🇨🇦
I have heard that XRF devices ONLY effectively test the surface of the gold bars. Fake gold bars with Tungsten core (wrapped with a layer of gold) may still cheat the XRF test. Correct me if I am wrong............
The X ray does not penetrate all the way through the bar, so that's a problem. I have worked in a plating shop for forty years. It would be easy to plate 0.050", or even 0.100" of gold on a slug.
I wish Bullion Now would answer you question.
@@mikenelson4024 Thanks for your information. I guess XRF testing alone could not be sufficient at this moment.....
@@albertanalyst123 I am by no means an expert on xray fluorescent spectroscopy, but I do understand the fundamentals involved. The XRF gun emits a high power xray beam. The photons in the beam encounters the atoms in the target. This results in an "inner shell electron" (a electron from a shell beneath the valance band of the target atom), absorbing an xray photon from the gun. The excited electron then emits its own xray photon, of a lower frequency than the XRF gun. That is why it is called florescent. This emitted xray must then pass back through the target atoms where it is detected by the XRF spectrometer and analyzed both qualitatively and quantitatively. This doubles the path length of the xray photons which doubles the absorption rate and decreases the depth this process can reach.
I do not know what the max depth this process will work. It would be nice if some one could answer your question, because I would like to know too.
@@albertanalyst123 I just got this info from google.
As Jan said, X-rays of energy 50keV have a 1/e penetration depth into Au of 71 microns.
That is, mu for Au at 50 keV is 7.26 cm^2/gr. For Other sources, see the tables of Elam, Ravel, and Seiber: dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0969-806X(01)00227-4, and available from either github.com/XraySpectroscopy/XrayDB or github.com/xraypy/xraylarch or github.com/bruceravel/demeter) or see github.com/tschoonj/xraylib/wiki.
With a density of 19.37 gr/cm^3, that gives a mu = 7.26 * 19.37 cm^-1, and so a 1/mu depth of 0.0071 cm = 71 microns.
However, the escape depth for the Au Lalpha1 line (at 9.7 keV) would only be 4 microns, and for Au Lbeta1 line (at 11.4 keV) would only be 6 microns.
So if this is correct, the photons emitted by the gun at 50keV will only penetrate the gold to a depth of 71 microns, which is just under 0.003". But that does not matter because the photons emitted by the gold atoms, at 9.7keV & 11.4 keV, can only travel back up to the surface of the gold bar 4 to 6 microns respectively. That is only 0.000157" to 0.000236". That's the limiting factor. An XRF gun can only see what is in the surface of a gold bar to a depth of 0.000236" MAX!
Either this information is incorrect, or these guys do not know what they are talking about, or their just blowing smoke up our asses.
A couple thousandths of plated gold on a slug would defeat XRF. Plating 0.003" gold is a peace of cake.
Sure would be nice if they would read and reply to your post!
Maybe that's why nobody in the gold business uses XRF.
Please send me an answer.
Can an XRF tell if Gold is .999 or .9999 purity?
Short answer is - yes but it depends. Our machine tests to 4 places. Some others don't. And just because a bar is stamped 999 doesn't actually mean that it's not 9999.
Nice piece of kid..😎👍
:)
Oh My God, This Mechine Is Very Very Interesting..If I want buy This XRF mechine How Much is it ? I'm Jeweller From Indonesia..thank You
Ours cost us $27k AUD so not cheap but definitely worth it as a retailer. Have to admit though - I have been really impressed with the results from the much cheaper Sigma metal verifiers. We've run a couple of "in house" tests side by side with the XRF and the results were very good. We should do a video on it one day.
@@BullionNow how much for sigma metal verifier????
checkout this point in the video 8:20
Can these XRF machines test junk silver?
Yes they can
30k a piece wtd
If you are so good you know that this XFR device will go dumb if you put a 1 oz au bar with tungsten "CONGLOMERATE" Greetings to all collectors
You're a little bit off with your numbers. 22K is 22/24 or about 0.91667 (last digit rounded up).
Thanks!
Could you tell me what is that yellow scale brand and model. I struggle buying a decent scale with all the crap chinese products that they pass as professional and that are still Chinese (junk) quality.
They need one so I can take my rocks in.
🥇🇬🇧
🤔🤔🤔
👌👌👌
👍👍👍
Do you do testing for free?
Yep, free of charge. We ask that you dont bring in a gazillion items, as we still have to serve paying customers, but we're happy to test a few things for you no problem.
makes sens! don’t deal with one that does not have one!
Only people i buy from
Handheld ones are 850 $ nowadays 😄🤩
where please
You should charge at least $1 each test
That method is so unsafe. Should have a cover over the sample before the analysis. Shooting x-rays everywhere.
The Australian accent must be the best accent in the world
Ever hear of a fake XRS machine? If I were selling fake precious metal, I would want one that tested for a trace of gold or silver and report .999 fine for whichever metal it detected regardless of the actual purity.
u test multiple items and instantly find out that something is off
Ciao e un copper 9999 gold giusto
Joe was good but he did have a tendency to waffle unnecessarily
I wish you would have tested some fakes
If you search our RUclips channel you can see a couple of videos where we have tested some fakes.
Stay still damn you. No need to zoom in to everything like every 5 seconds.
ffs. Why wont anyone video this on their skin.
Because its radiation.
@@BullionNow Lower than at the radiology department though!
@@alch3myau It's about exposure over time.
Maybe its because the people filming themselves in possession of these tools are in fact aliens themselves?... ooooo....
@@alch3myau I like the theory...