The older I get, the more I realize that many times I would have been better hiring someone and working a few extra hours at my day job to pay for it :)
Man I just ran across this trying to convert my shop to 3 phase so I can run my feed pellet mill with electric instead of pto tractor power to save money smh I thought i was doomed till I seen this.
I had the chance to work on a system like yours 240v 1p to 600v 3p. Customer (Farmer) needed 3p 600v for a refrigeration unit for a Liquid Co2 Tank for a greenouse. Good video! Nice refresh!
I took a 110 single phase and made 600 volt 3 phase out of it with the convertor and running multiple machines from it, very simple, plug and play. And then I woke up:)
Tim Wilborne - Thank you for the video- I am with Anthony- I would also very much like to see a step by step guide to building a RPC. I like how yours was laid out in the box. I am trying to get ideas for how to lay mine out.
I used to do this w/o the caps, to run my metal lathe. I'd start the idler motor with another, single phase motor with a belt. then once running I'd use it to power my lathe. The idler motor would always become super hot!!
My previous one was the same setup. The only reason we switched to our current setup is our is some of our customers required the phases to be balanced when we tested their control panels. Also the idler heat sounds like you weren't dropping power to the motor one at speed. It should only be used while starting.
@@TimWilborne Thanks... I was dropping the power applied once the pony motor was running. Didn't you show in your other video that overheating is a problem when no capacitors are used?
@@TimWilborne Just trying to determine the cause... so it was b/c your idler motor was not twice the size of the load motor...? That was probably the problem with my setup! My idler motor was quite a bit smaller than my lathe motor.
Great into to Phase converters. Discovered your channel about a month ago and have really enjoyed your how to videos. I am an instructor at a Technical College have have shown students your Panel Building series already. Great job!!!
To make 480 V with your rotary phase converter, you don't need a 3 phase transformer, you just need to rewire the "motor" so that you only use half of the windings to run it, then use the other half in series to make the 480V. I have done this many times.
I was researching how this works. Ran into it for the first time. That's a tad bit high for 480V. You could change the tap in the transformer and drop that 480 V down. Not your load or demand bit maybe once equipment is running there is a voltage drop.
For the most part plus or minus 10% is acceptable. If I were in the 520 volt range I might start to worry. In this and most cases, there is no multitap transformer
Great video. Had a few questions on previous exchanges in the thread. Looking forward to the next in series on balancing capacitors. I have built two already for running smaller motors(1/2 and 3/4) and need to do a shop wide redo with a larger set of equipment. I used timers before I found out about the potential relays . Upping the idlers to above 10 HP load looks like a whole new set of parameters come into play above the 30 amp /220 input.
@@TimWilborne How much longer do we have to wait lol Good info & explained clearly! I'm ready to order parts but been holding out for this series for confirmation on how I should go about it. Thank you!
Thanks Fred. Let me know if you have any questions or clarifications you'd like to see in upcoming videos. I've made a desktop model of the rest phase converter to go into more detail.
Hi Tim. Great video. My question is: What are the questions I need to ask an electrical contractor when hiring to make my home shop have 3 phase power? And are transfer switches a thing to have on my outlets if I will only be using one machine at a time.?
Probably the biggest thing is you need at least a commercial or maybe even an industrial electricians. Many home electricians only know about 3 phase power from school. If it is just you then I wouldn't worry about having it so that only one machine can run at a time. You'll know, and if properly protected, it will simply trip the breaker.
Sorry to butt in but think that a 30HP unit would mean stepping up to 100 amp incoming power for a unit that size . Are you running up to 20 HP combined motors ? 5 HP is about the max motor size that can be run on a control panel with 30 amp 220 input that is shown here if I'm not mistaken. At that the idler would be 7.5 HP minimum as I understand these. Correct me if I'm off on that Tim.
Could you please share the electric draw? I am really wondering how to convert from 1 phase to 3 phases with capacitor? I am thinking to do the same thing with Ac motor driver?
The reason I never have is the capacitors vary by horsepower. I'm planning on making a follow-up video about capacitor sizing, it just hasn't made it up the priority list.
Great video, I just purchased a hypertherm powermax 1650 g3 series plasma cutter and was wondering what size idler I would need? And do you know where I could but the whole rotary setup and install myself. Thank you
Awesome video and explanation! The 240V three phase output sort of seems very much like a 120/240V 3 phase delta system, typically found in rual areas like farms, that have many 3 phase motors and are fortunate to have 3 phase available on the pole, which can be utilized by adding two additional transformers, or sometimes one additional transformer, then you end up with what's known as open delta. In case 3 phase is not available, are rotary phase converters as good as true 3 phase from the utility? Is there any de-rating of the equipment/motors I should be concerned about? I was thinking about starting a small business next year when I hopefully buy my first house, installing this setup in a detach garage I plan to build in the next 5 years.
I don't think you can every say it is "as good" but it does work. We use ours to test all of our 3 phase panels including ones with sensative electronics with no trouble. Your idler motor must be twice the size of the load you want to run. So if you want 5 hp of usable power, you need a 10hp idler.
I would like two have known how you chose the size of the idler motor. Is there anything intuitive about doing so, or does it require a ton of theory discussion?
thanks Tim, need to figure out the start relay, as I am now I use a momentary button to disconnect the start cap. What motor is more suited, 2, or 4 pole
It is on the list, here is one were we go into the details of how it generates the 3rd leg. twcontrols.com/lessons/how-does-a-rotary-phase-converter-make-3-phase-from-single-phase
What kind of motor 110 v 1-2 hp how does it make the 3 rd leg that part I don’t understand. My motor is 15 hp 230-460 3 ph 36@230 v or 18amps at 460 v rpm is at 1750
@@TimWilborne Smallish company out in South Dakota, but they make VFD's with barely any moving parts. And virtually 100% american made. They are pretty slick!
Great!! I´m wondering if it is possible to use a VFD with a filter or something to make 3 phase without any motor nor generator...? or may be using 3 pure sine wave inverters ?? the big challenge will be setting the 120 degrees phase.. Have you tried any of these options?
Hi Hector. Here is one where we use a VFD to run a motor with Single Phase. There is also a phase shift starter but I'm not a fan of them. ruclips.net/video/Z_juhqYt1Ks/видео.html
That is realy awesome, I have been looking for ideas to convert my shop to 3 phase. This is perfect. Do you have a list of all the items needed to perform this task? Thank you for sharing this....
I wonder if a VFD would save more power than a rotary converter ??. I also wonder if a properly sized VFD can run and power multiple devices??. I like the idea that a VFD comes with built in protections and settings . I think depending on the motor used condition , the generated third leg ( phase ) might not always be valance and stable , how can it be valance ?? . is there a rule of thumb or chart on what size capacitor should used ??. Another great video . Thanks.
Those are great questions. I don't know how the VFD would handle the inrush of a motor starting across the line. It limits the current output through acceleration and deceleration so it doesn't have an unlimited amount of current available for starting. Even my Rotary phase converter will bog down enough to kick the starting capacitor back in if I start a super heavy load when testing a control system larger than it's designed for. also you won't have any protection with the VFD if it is oversized to run multiple motors. It's current production will be too large for any of your machines. As far as balancing there are arguments four or against weather balancing is necessary but I think it is a good practice. You balance through the run capacitors. There are no good rules of thumbs for balancing but I am making a video showing how to measure and maybe get some decent estimates on what size capacitors you should balance with. You peaked my interest about wheher a rotary phase converter or a VFD is more efficient. Not enough to go out and buy the parts but I may see if I can get some things donated to do a test for a video. Thanks for watching and the great comments and questions!
Hi this is a fantastic job so my question is that having an 3 phase exit you can power any 3phase device? like a 3 phase climate unit or a fridge ?? Or you can power only motors like a lathe ?
You want your control power such as the transformer on your main two legs, after that yes it will work in most applications. I would reach out to the rotary phase converter manufacturer before you purchase.
Not in the end. The 3rd leg is artificial so I still only have two legs coming from the breaker. But at the actual load you are correct, it does divide across them.
Good day Tim or fellow dyi'ers. I'm curious to know if I need to match motor sizes. For example can a 5hp pony motor supply a 10hp motor? I was told.you need double the HP on a phase converter by many, but I've also been told you dont
Let's make sure we are talking the same terms. Many set up use a "pony" motor to start the idler motor. This set up uses starting capacitors to start the idler motor. If that is what you are talking about, any motor can be a pony motor. As for as the idler, such as this video shows, you double the horsepower. So if you have 10hp with of 3 phase load, you would need a 20hp motor.
If you back fed through the secondary side of a 480 to 240 transformer, wouldn’t you just get 2 legs of 480? In this setup you provided us, you would have single phase 480. Unless I’m not understanding something.
The rotary phase converter creates the third lag to give you 240 3 phase, then that is a three phase 480 to 240 volt 3 phase transformer. Backfeeding it gives you 480V 3 phase on the primary side.
Just a quick couple questions, could a phase converter be repaired, and what's the difference between the large box type converter and the small one if iam only powering one motor?
Hi Joe, yes phase converters can be repaired. Most of the time bad capacitors are the only problem. I'm not sure what you mean by a large vs small box converter. They are all based off of horsepower. Typically you double the horsepower of your load and that is the size rotary phase converter you need.
What certs would be given on an intial verification.Eic sch.inspections and test results.? Gn3 osg bs7671 have slight contradictions compared to instructions on paperwork..im emabarking 2391 soon.
Hi Tim, loved your video. Looking to build one also as well to run my 3 phase Atlas Copco compressor, which currently I cant run at home with my single phase power. Is it possible you could share the schematics of this build? Thank you.
Here's one that goes into the details about how it works. Honestly I never did the one detailing out the capacitors because there's a lot more to it than the average viewer may understand and I didn't want people burning up their equipment. You can purchase premade panels to put on motors for almost the cost of the parts to build a panel that does it. ruclips.net/video/eXS9ahNzds0/видео.html
Question.I run a Brewery in Texas. My Brewhouse uses multiple voltages of single-120, single-240, 3phase208 and 480. We get raped financially for 3-phase power here by Oncor. Is it practical to use spinning converters to avoid buying 3phase? Are there reasons to bite the bullet and pay the outrageous 3phase prices?
That probably is a question for the local power company. For the most part, we dream of having access to 3 phase power and don't. I'm a little surprised that it cost more but my wild guess is this isn't about your power consumption and is more about a peak rate charge issue. I would be curious what you find but Oncor would be the people to ask.
@@TimWilborne I understand your response. My problem isn't THAT I have 3 phase available... regognizing your DESIRE, but unavailablity of it... but 2/3 of my bill is ACCESS to it. My energy usage is relatively small (1/3). And we're talking $Thousands per month. Oncor is no help. Why would they intentionally reduce their FREE revenue? So that's where my original question comes from. I can build a 3 Phase Converter system for some amount of capital, and save the 2/3 bill... or there is something I'm missing. Again... thanks for your insight.
I know a lot of shops that run on phase converters. There's nothing that says you can't. It still would be a good idea to get someone local to look at it. It's hard to get the whole picture in a RUclips comment. Also depending on the exact situation, changing a few motors to single phase or putting VFDs on them could be a better option.
Yes, I know people who run welders off of them. Check with the rotary phase convertor company, sometimes there are special capacitor configurations just for that.
The capacitor sizing is the toughest thing, I would look at purchasing a kit from someone. It still saves you some money but removes a lot of the headaches.
Mine only has 110 single phase going to it. So i get two legs of 110 and one leg of 230. How do i get 3 legs of 230??? It seems to run fine like it is but it doesn't seem right to me
Hi Blake. Yes, as long as you have the proper run capacitors to balance the three legs and your transformer allows for a neutral connection (mine does) then you will have 277 to ground on all three legs. I'll be sure to address this when we dig into the details of how it works. Great question!
@@TimWilborne Hey thanks, if you're doing a more technical video on this subject see if you can measure phase to ground on a vfd setup as well, i'm interested to see if pullsed dc from a vfd will still give you 277V.
I know RPC's work, but just for theory, how are you getting something useful by using two legs of 240v 180 degrees apart, and inducing a phantom leg 120 degrees out? it must be pretty imbalanced, phase wise, but I guess its good nuff? The caps introduce an additional 90 degrees, but mainly they're for voltage matching?
What happens when you put a load on the 3 phase? My experience has been that the third phase or leg draws down in volts a bit. Do you know if I could use a welder or plasma cutter on this type of converter?
That is what your size the run capacitors for. Typically they will run a little high when not loaded and even out when loaded. Welders and Plasmas usually work fine.
Great video..I am pondering if I should get a 3 phase converter for pizza conveyor ovens. usually 208/240 3 phases. Do you recommend? Thanks for your good informative videos by the way
Most conveyors are available in single phase so that would be my first choice unless you need to vary the speed of the conveyor. Event then, there are many single phase drives that will output 3 phase and allow you to vary the speed.
please excuse my ignorance , but are you now pulling three times the amps from the single phase. ie a 60 amp single phase in is giving a 20 amp 3 phase supply out. i understand you cant get something for nothing , but is the maths that simple.
Not 3 times the amps. 1.732 times the amps. Remember, you are already pulling on "2 legs". I'm in Christmas mode so short on time but go to a KW to amp calculator such as below and enter 1kw, 220VAC, a power factor of 0.85 then observe the amp change between AC single phase and AC 3 phase. www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/kW_to_Amp_Calculator.html
I have a small cnc lathe which uses 380v 3 phase and I’m attempting to run it with a 7.5hp rotary phase converter from North America phase it’s a 3.5 hp lathe so it should be good and then it has a step up transformer to take the 220v 3’phase to 380 is there any issue there
Most 380VAC 50 hz motors can run on 460VAC 60 hz. Check your motor and see. You may be able to source a 220VAC to 480VAC 3 phase transformer cheaper than a 220VAC to 380VAC 3 phase transformer.
Great vid.. I recently picked up a 480 volt wood planer and was concerned about building a dual volt all in one converter. Back in the 1980's I had a "Rotophase" built using a 10 hp motor. The guy who built it told me the rule of thumb was that you can start up to the motor capacity of the converter (10 hp) and that you could run up to 3 times that as long as you do not try to start at the same time. IE you clould run 30 hp at a time. I have been looking at recent vids. and most say you need twice as much converter hp as largest hp machine you need to start. My planner is 7.5 480 3ph, I recently purchased a 7.5 hp motor to build converter, thoughts?
No I've never heard that one Howie. As a general rule your idler needs to be twice the horsepower that you want to start. So if you have a 7.5hp load, your would need a 15 hp idler.
Yes, I'm not sure it is a good practice but when I bog mine down, usually by testing a control panel with a drive that has a lot of inrush when you power it up, mine will bog down and the starting capacitors can kick back in sometimes. I would say that if this is happening normally then you need a bigger phase converter.
@@TimWilborne I built a 15hp one for a friend with a timer relay instead of a potential relay and reading into it more people say to use the potential relay to keep the start caps in the loop. Now I'm building 2 more. A 20hp and a 30hp and I like the timer aspect of it cause I know the start caps will always fall out. I've read that the potential relay needs to be "SIZED" correctly but no information out there about how to do that. Edit: heres my RFC ruclips.net/video/hyjYdEL-80s/видео.html
can you show us the transformer.... you said you step it up.... to 480 I would like to see that .... im just trying to grasp whats missing with the home Solar Units being pushed on the residential homes.... getting that additional phase seems to be a really cheap tweek to the 2 phase Solar Market.... it offers another level of peace of mind to me from what i see.....
Here are a few videos about transformers plus we're going to make one specifically on backfeeding them soon. How to wire the primary and secondary of a transformer. www.theautomationstore.com/control-wiring-transformer-wiring-primary-and-secondary/ Backfeeding a three phase transformer to make 480VAC. www.theautomationstore.com/how-to-make-3-phase-power-from-single-phase-power-using-a-rotary-phase-converter-including-480vac/ How to make a basic transformer. www.theautomationstore.com/how-do-transformers-work-using-two-contactor-coils-and-a-bolt-to-show-how-magnetic-flux-works/
nice video. It would be nice if you would post a BOM (Bill of Materials) used to built this converter showing the source as well as the values ie uF and voltages
I start going through that in the following video ruclips.net/video/eXS9ahNzds0/видео.html. You can't really spec out what size capacitors you'll need but an upcoming video I'm going to give some good general rules.
just tryna keep up but did you mean you have 220 on your primary nd 440 on the secondary cus it sounds like you got it backawards ? not tryna be jerk bro this is serious talk
Yes, there are very few "480 volt" rotary phase converters out there, most of the demand is is for 240V rotary phase converters. I like having both. I need it for testing control systems but even if I didn't, I think I would want both.
Hi,Tim. i am also planning to build the same setup for VFDs and servos testing at home. i have few questions. can we use static phase convertor (or VFDs ) to feed step up transformer. or rotary is the best? second which transformer is the best ,a isolation or auto transformer? thanks
@TimWilborne I friend has a small machine shop. He hand cranks the motor before applying power. It's a huge 3 phase motor. I'll have to look on the tag too just using a small electric washing cabinet.
That's the old school way of doing it. Still works great. Some people will couple a single phase motor to it and use it to spin it up. I like the capacitors because it's a clean setup and I can start it from inside
@@TimWilborne I think I will just pad mount one and use it for my 3 phase equipment only. I think it will be the most cost effective way to run a single phase system from the power company and the generator for the 3 phase system.
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I knew nothing about it when I got here.. I know enough now to know I need to hire someone to do it for me, lol.. Thank you bunches 💖
The older I get, the more I realize that many times I would have been better hiring someone and working a few extra hours at my day job to pay for it :)
Seriously... Ive been driving myself nuts on how to power a 480v 3 phase motor using single phase power. Thanks for providing clarity.
Glad to help Jeremiah!
Gawdamn I watched over 20 other videos of phase converters always scrolling past this one I learned more from this one videos then those other 20
Well what kept you scrolling past? Maybe we need to tweak our thumbnails. Glad you found us!
Tim the best I ever seen
Man I just ran across this trying to convert my shop to 3 phase so I can run my feed pellet mill with electric instead of pto tractor power to save money smh I thought i was doomed till I seen this.
I always thumbs up videos where their mistake is used as an example of what to avoid. Respect
Thanks Dave!
I had the chance to work on a system like yours 240v 1p to 600v 3p. Customer (Farmer) needed 3p 600v for a refrigeration unit for a Liquid Co2 Tank for a greenouse. Good video! Nice refresh!
Wow that must been a beefy greenhouse. Thanks for watching!
I took a 110 single phase and made 600 volt 3 phase out of it with the convertor and running multiple machines from it, very simple, plug and play. And then I woke up:)
Yes that would be a little steep unless they were all model machines. I think you'd end up with about 1.5 amps of capacity 😜
Thank you. I'm looking forward to you going more in-depth about this set up
You're welcome Anthony. Thanks for watching!
Tim Wilborne - Thank you for the video- I am with Anthony- I would also very much like to see a step by step guide to building a RPC. I like how yours was laid out in the box. I am trying to get ideas for how to lay mine out.
Thanks this is a good video that made technical sense many others with due respect failed to explain clearly.
Glad it was helpful!
You add more knowledge for me Tim
please continue it matters a lot for me I love you and your family GOD bless you all
Thank you, I will!
I used to do this w/o the caps, to run my metal lathe. I'd start the idler motor with another, single phase motor with a belt. then once running I'd use it to power my lathe. The idler motor would always become super hot!!
My previous one was the same setup. The only reason we switched to our current setup is our is some of our customers required the phases to be balanced when we tested their control panels.
Also the idler heat sounds like you weren't dropping power to the motor one at speed. It should only be used while starting.
@@TimWilborne Thanks... I was dropping the power applied once the pony motor was running.
Didn't you show in your other video that overheating is a problem when no capacitors are used?
That wasn't a capacitor problem. My idler motor should have been twice the size of my load. I used the same size motors which caused my overheating.
@@TimWilborne Just trying to determine the cause... so it was b/c your idler motor was not twice the size of the load motor...? That was probably the problem with my setup! My idler motor was quite a bit smaller than my lathe motor.
Great into to Phase converters. Discovered your channel about a month ago and have really enjoyed your how to videos. I am an instructor at a Technical College have have shown students your Panel Building series already. Great job!!!
Thanks Adam! Let me know if there are particular topics that would help your students.
To make 480 V with your rotary phase converter, you don't need a 3 phase transformer, you just need to rewire the "motor" so that you only use half of the windings to run it, then use the other half in series to make the 480V. I have done this many times.
Interesting. I can't work this out in my head on a standard Wye Delta motor configuration. Can you send me a sketch? contactus@twcontrols.com.
@@TimWilborne did he ever send you info on how to do this?
Wont you lose the efficiency of the orginal 3 phase because it's not equally across all the windings?
The question is, is it equal across the windings? 🤓
@@TimWilborne It can be made equal with the proper run capacitors
I was researching how this works. Ran into it for the first time.
That's a tad bit high for 480V.
You could change the tap in the transformer and drop that 480 V down.
Not your load or demand bit maybe once equipment is running there is a voltage drop.
For the most part plus or minus 10% is acceptable. If I were in the 520 volt range I might start to worry.
In this and most cases, there is no multitap transformer
Tim... you are a pretty smart cookie. Explain/put forth concepts really well.
Thank you David!
Excellent sir. Pls keep posting on various topics
Thank you, I will
Fantastic description
Thank you!
Great video. Had a few questions on previous exchanges in the thread. Looking forward to the next in series on balancing capacitors. I have built two already for running smaller motors(1/2 and 3/4) and need to do a shop wide redo with a larger set of equipment. I used timers before I found out about the potential relays . Upping the idlers to above 10 HP load looks like a whole new set of parameters come into play above the 30 amp /220 input.
Yes I need to make a capacitor balancing video, I've got too many projects going on right now.
@@TimWilborne How much longer do we have to wait lol Good info & explained clearly! I'm ready to order parts but been holding out for this series for confirmation on how I should go about it. Thank you!
Parts are not easy to find in the whole state of va
Maybe should use a vfd but no fun in that huh!
@@TimWilborne Tim did you ever do the video on building the phase converter?
Very nice explanation of your setup
Thanks Fred. Let me know if you have any questions or clarifications you'd like to see in upcoming videos. I've made a desktop model of the rest phase converter to go into more detail.
Thank you Tim
You are welcome
Fantastic video man! Good job.
Thanks a ton!
Here in Australia we have 415v 3 phase power or 230v single phase power.
Nice video sir, please let me know how to connnect the running capacitor, thanks sir
Hi Tim. Great video. My question is: What are the questions I need to ask an electrical contractor when hiring to make my home shop have 3 phase power? And are transfer switches a thing to have on my outlets if I will only be using one machine at a time.?
Probably the biggest thing is you need at least a commercial or maybe even an industrial electricians. Many home electricians only know about 3 phase power from school.
If it is just you then I wouldn't worry about having it so that only one machine can run at a time. You'll know, and if properly protected, it will simply trip the breaker.
Great video, I've been running a 10hp rpc I built for my 5hp air compressor and other 3 phase equipment. I'd like a control panel for a 30 hp idler.
Thanks. Occasionally I bog down my 5hp so I'm on the lookout for some parts to upgrade mine too.
Sorry to butt in but think that a 30HP unit would mean stepping up to 100 amp incoming power for a unit that size . Are you running up to 20 HP combined motors ?
5 HP is about the max motor size that can be run on a control panel with 30 amp 220 input that is shown here if I'm not mistaken. At that the idler would be 7.5 HP minimum as I understand these. Correct me if I'm off on that Tim.
Could you please share the electric draw? I am really wondering how to convert from 1 phase to 3 phases with capacitor? I am thinking to do the same thing with Ac motor driver?
The reason I never have is the capacitors vary by horsepower. I'm planning on making a follow-up video about capacitor sizing, it just hasn't made it up the priority list.
Great video, I just purchased a hypertherm powermax 1650 g3 series plasma cutter and was wondering what size idler I would need? And do you know where I could but the whole rotary setup and install myself. Thank you
American Rotary is a good start. They are very helpful with the sizing.
Awesome video and explanation! The 240V three phase output sort of seems very much like a 120/240V 3 phase delta system, typically found in rual areas like farms, that have many 3 phase motors and are fortunate to have 3 phase available on the pole, which can be utilized by adding two additional transformers, or sometimes one additional transformer, then you end up with what's known as open delta. In case 3 phase is not available, are rotary phase converters as good as true 3 phase from the utility? Is there any de-rating of the equipment/motors I should be concerned about? I was thinking about starting a small business next year when I hopefully buy my first house, installing this setup in a detach garage I plan to build in the next 5 years.
I don't think you can every say it is "as good" but it does work. We use ours to test all of our 3 phase panels including ones with sensative electronics with no trouble. Your idler motor must be twice the size of the load you want to run. So if you want 5 hp of usable power, you need a 10hp idler.
Hi Tim. Absolutely fantastic work. Could you elaborate a little bit on back feeding a three phase transformer ?
That's been a popular request, I'm going to cover it more in an upcoming video.
I would like two have known how you chose the size of the idler motor. Is there anything intuitive about doing so, or does it require a ton of theory discussion?
Double the hp of your load. So if you have a 5hp load then you would need a 10hp idler. There is math behind it but that is a good rule of thumb.
nice video. one question. what size idler motor are you using? and what size would i need to run a 3 phase 25hp compressor motor?
As a general rule, your idler motor should be double the size of your load. So if you have a 25hp load, you need a 50hp idler. motor.
thanks Tim, need to figure out the start relay, as I am now I use a momentary button to disconnect the start cap. What motor is more suited, 2, or 4 pole
Either one will do the job. Mines an 1800 rpm
Great video! Could I run a 3phase welding plant with something like this?
Yes
@@TimWilborne Thanks man!
You are welcome, reach out to American Rotary if you need help selecting one. They are very helpful. www.americanrotary.com/
It's amazing...Is it possible to explain it with a wiring diagram, would be very helpful ?
Thank you
It is on the list, here is one were we go into the details of how it generates the 3rd leg.
twcontrols.com/lessons/how-does-a-rotary-phase-converter-make-3-phase-from-single-phase
You are right. That's a sure way for elaborate explanation.
Thanks for the video. Can you provide a circuit diagram for this? Pls try. Thanks so much.
Have you ever heard of delta eye configuration , but you pretty good at this so, what kind of motor is the converting 3 leg
What kind of motor 110 v 1-2 hp how does it make the 3 rd leg that part I don’t understand. My motor is 15 hp 230-460 3 ph 36@230 v or 18amps at 460 v rpm is at 1750
Wye configuration or delta
Thanks for the video. Is there any way possible to do a video on Phase Technologies drives? They are fully digital drives.
Never seen that brand.
@@TimWilborne Smallish company out in South Dakota, but they make VFD's with barely any moving parts. And virtually 100% american made. They are pretty slick!
Great video
Thank you Dave.
Thanks for the videos.
You are welcome. Glad you like them!
Great!! I´m wondering if it is possible to use a VFD with a filter or something to make 3 phase without any motor nor generator...? or may be using 3 pure sine wave inverters ?? the big challenge will be setting the 120 degrees phase.. Have you tried any of these options?
Hi Hector. Here is one where we use a VFD to run a motor with Single Phase. There is also a phase shift starter but I'm not a fan of them.
ruclips.net/video/Z_juhqYt1Ks/видео.html
Hi sir, can i use scr 1 phase to control the speed of that motor and maybe what the effect of that method? Thanks before
That is realy awesome, I have been looking for ideas to convert my shop to 3 phase. This is perfect. Do you have a list of all the items needed to perform this task?
Thank you for sharing this....
I would contact American Rotary, they will help you size your applicaiton.
this is amazing.
Thanks!
I wonder if a VFD would save more power than a rotary converter ??.
I also wonder if a properly sized VFD can run and power multiple devices??.
I like the idea that a VFD comes with built in protections and settings .
I think depending on the motor used condition , the generated third leg ( phase ) might not always be valance and stable ,
how can it be valance ?? .
is there a rule of thumb or chart on what size capacitor should used ??.
Another great video .
Thanks.
Those are great questions. I don't know how the VFD would handle the inrush of a motor starting across the line. It limits the current output through acceleration and deceleration so it doesn't have an unlimited amount of current available for starting. Even my Rotary phase converter will bog down enough to kick the starting capacitor back in if I start a super heavy load when testing a control system larger than it's designed for.
also you won't have any protection with the VFD if it is oversized to run multiple motors. It's current production will be too large for any of your machines.
As far as balancing there are arguments four or against weather balancing is necessary but I think it is a good practice. You balance through the run capacitors. There are no good rules of thumbs for balancing but I am making a video showing how to measure and maybe get some decent estimates on what size capacitors you should balance with.
You peaked my interest about wheher a rotary phase converter or a VFD is more efficient. Not enough to go out and buy the parts but I may see if I can get some things donated to do a test for a video.
Thanks for watching and the great comments and questions!
looking forward to the next one thanks
You're welcome. I worked on a bench top rotary phase converter to use to show the details this weekend.
wow great information.
please put the link of schematic diagram.❤
Tim i Love you so much, you are the best of the f World… 🙌🙌🙌
Thanks Bryan!
Hi this is a fantastic job so my question is that having an 3 phase exit you can power any 3phase device? like a 3 phase climate unit or a fridge ?? Or you can power only motors like a lathe ?
You want your control power such as the transformer on your main two legs, after that yes it will work in most applications. I would reach out to the rotary phase converter manufacturer before you purchase.
By adding this 3rd phase, you now need to spread out your amps across 3 phases instead of 2 , reducing the amps out correct?
Not in the end. The 3rd leg is artificial so I still only have two legs coming from the breaker. But at the actual load you are correct, it does divide across them.
Good day Tim or fellow dyi'ers. I'm curious to know if I need to match motor sizes. For example can a 5hp pony motor supply a 10hp motor? I was told.you need double the HP on a phase converter by many, but I've also been told you dont
Let's make sure we are talking the same terms. Many set up use a "pony" motor to start the idler motor. This set up uses starting capacitors to start the idler motor. If that is what you are talking about, any motor can be a pony motor. As for as the idler, such as this video shows, you double the horsepower. So if you have 10hp with of 3 phase load, you would need a 20hp motor.
@@TimWilborne yes that's what I am talking about. I'd like to run a 10hp motor for a hydraulic forging press.
@@TimWilborne so the people telling me I can source 3ph off a 5hp for a 10hp motor are not correct then? Or is there a way to accomplish that?
If you have a 10hp press then you need a 20hp idler.
What’s the horse power and what size of wire/amp breaker are you using to feed the phase converter?
It is a 5hp set up. For the most part, you would double the horsepower of your idler for your load. So my set up is good for 2.5hp.
Can u make full video sir how to connect that single phase that have 3phase output..thanks sir..Godbless
Where do you get and name of 480 transformer
If you back fed through the secondary side of a 480 to 240 transformer, wouldn’t you just get 2 legs of 480? In this setup you provided us, you would have single phase 480.
Unless I’m not understanding something.
The rotary phase converter creates the third lag to give you 240 3 phase, then that is a three phase 480 to 240 volt 3 phase transformer. Backfeeding it gives you 480V 3 phase on the primary side.
Hello there, curious if you was to run this motor 24/7 how long will it last, i figured not too long right?
It will last a long as any other motor. Plenty of them run 24/7. As long as you service the bearings if required, you should get a long life.
Just a quick couple questions, could a phase converter be repaired, and what's the difference between the large box type converter and the small one if iam only powering one motor?
Hi Joe, yes phase converters can be repaired. Most of the time bad capacitors are the only problem. I'm not sure what you mean by a large vs small box converter. They are all based off of horsepower. Typically you double the horsepower of your load and that is the size rotary phase converter you need.
Do you happen to have a schematic for that setup?
No, there are some good ones on Practical Machinists forum
What certs would be given on an intial verification.Eic sch.inspections and test results.? Gn3 osg bs7671 have slight contradictions compared to instructions on paperwork..im emabarking 2391 soon.
I'm not familiar with those standards, looks like they are for the UK. In the US you would be looking for UL 508A
Can this be uses to drive a 30hp 3 phase motor
Yes, as long as the phase converter is properly sized.
Hi Tim, loved your video. Looking to build one also as well to run my 3 phase Atlas Copco compressor, which currently I cant run at home with my single phase power. Is it possible you could share the schematics of this build? Thank you.
Here's one that goes into the details about how it works. Honestly I never did the one detailing out the capacitors because there's a lot more to it than the average viewer may understand and I didn't want people burning up their equipment. You can purchase premade panels to put on motors for almost the cost of the parts to build a panel that does it.
ruclips.net/video/eXS9ahNzds0/видео.html
My dad has exactly this in his home shop and I’ve always puzzled over how exactly it works.
Pretty fascinating.
Question.I run a Brewery in Texas. My Brewhouse uses multiple voltages of single-120, single-240, 3phase208 and 480. We get raped financially for 3-phase power here by Oncor. Is it practical to use spinning converters to avoid buying 3phase? Are there reasons to bite the bullet and pay the outrageous 3phase prices?
That probably is a question for the local power company. For the most part, we dream of having access to 3 phase power and don't. I'm a little surprised that it cost more but my wild guess is this isn't about your power consumption and is more about a peak rate charge issue. I would be curious what you find but Oncor would be the people to ask.
@@TimWilborne I understand your response. My problem isn't THAT I have 3 phase available... regognizing your DESIRE, but unavailablity of it... but 2/3 of my bill is ACCESS to it. My energy usage is relatively small (1/3). And we're talking $Thousands per month. Oncor is no help. Why would they intentionally reduce their FREE revenue? So that's where my original question comes from. I can build a 3 Phase Converter system for some amount of capital, and save the 2/3 bill... or there is something I'm missing. Again... thanks for your insight.
I know a lot of shops that run on phase converters. There's nothing that says you can't. It still would be a good idea to get someone local to look at it. It's hard to get the whole picture in a RUclips comment.
Also depending on the exact situation, changing a few motors to single phase or putting VFDs on them could be a better option.
Great video Tim, Can I get the transformer model # ?
Thank you
It would depend on your load requirements
Can you plug a welding machine to this set up? Thanks for your video
Yes, I know people who run welders off of them. Check with the rotary phase convertor company, sometimes there are special capacitor configurations just for that.
Thanks 🙏
Tim I always say you are the Mann!!! Great stuff!!
Thanks Autry!
Where’s the next video
Hey Tim I got a great deal on a 3 phase pizza oven but my building is single phase I need 70 amp 480V
I would definitely contact American Rotary about this application. Here are some of their phase converter offerings.
amzn.to/3rK0NZw
Excellent
I want to do work on this project
One phase to three phase converter
The capacitor sizing is the toughest thing, I would look at purchasing a kit from someone. It still saves you some money but removes a lot of the headaches.
Mine only has 110 single phase going to it. So i get two legs of 110 and one leg of 230.
How do i get 3 legs of 230???
It seems to run fine like it is but it doesn't seem right to me
See if this video helps.
ruclips.net/video/GSa0R3jhxCA/видео.html
can a home generator be use to supply the 3rd leg needed?
No, it would be near impossible to sync it up
Very nice!! is your idler motor wired in delta for 230v input?
Yes, correct
What kind of voltage reading would you get phase to ground on a rpc? Would it still be 277V for 480V output?
Hi Blake. Yes, as long as you have the proper run capacitors to balance the three legs and your transformer allows for a neutral connection (mine does) then you will have 277 to ground on all three legs. I'll be sure to address this when we dig into the details of how it works. Great question!
@@TimWilborne Hey thanks, if you're doing a more technical video on this subject see if you can measure phase to ground on a vfd setup as well, i'm interested to see if pullsed dc from a vfd will still give you 277V.
Voltage on a VFD can't be measured with a volt meter. You'll have to wait for the video on that one, to much to explain in a RUclips comment 😀
I know RPC's work, but just for theory, how are you getting something useful by using two legs of 240v 180 degrees apart, and inducing a phantom leg 120 degrees out? it must be pretty imbalanced, phase wise, but I guess its good nuff? The caps introduce an additional 90 degrees, but mainly they're for voltage matching?
Correct, I hope to get a hold of a 3 phase scope and show it on a video.
@@TimWilborne That would be very interesting to see
What happens when you put a load on the 3 phase? My experience has been that the third phase or leg draws down in volts a bit. Do you know if I could use a welder or plasma cutter on this type of converter?
That is what your size the run capacitors for. Typically they will run a little high when not loaded and even out when loaded. Welders and Plasmas usually work fine.
Great video..I am pondering if I should get a 3 phase converter for pizza conveyor ovens. usually 208/240 3 phases. Do you recommend? Thanks for your good informative videos by the way
Most conveyors are available in single phase so that would be my first choice unless you need to vary the speed of the conveyor. Event then, there are many single phase drives that will output 3 phase and allow you to vary the speed.
please excuse my ignorance , but are you now pulling three times the amps from the single phase.
ie a 60 amp single phase in is giving a 20 amp 3 phase supply out.
i understand you cant get something for nothing , but is the maths that simple.
Not 3 times the amps. 1.732 times the amps. Remember, you are already pulling on "2 legs".
I'm in Christmas mode so short on time but go to a KW to amp calculator such as below and enter 1kw, 220VAC, a power factor of 0.85 then observe the amp change between AC single phase and AC 3 phase.
www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/kW_to_Amp_Calculator.html
@@TimWilborne
Many thanks
many thanks ,, happy xmas
@@tomthompson7400 You're welcome!
looks great , but it was much better if you added electronic schemes
Maybe one day I'll get another one done, I take it you watched the 2nd one.
What can I do to have this VDF in CAMEROON
I have a small cnc lathe which uses 380v 3 phase and I’m attempting to run it with a 7.5hp rotary phase converter from North America phase it’s a 3.5 hp lathe so it should be good and then it has a step up transformer to take the 220v 3’phase to 380 is there any issue there
Most 380VAC 50 hz motors can run on 460VAC 60 hz. Check your motor and see. You may be able to source a 220VAC to 480VAC 3 phase transformer cheaper than a 220VAC to 380VAC 3 phase transformer.
Great vid.. I recently picked up a 480 volt wood planer and was concerned about building a dual volt all in one converter. Back in the 1980's I had a "Rotophase" built using a 10 hp motor. The guy who built it told me the rule of thumb was that you can start up to the motor capacity of the converter (10 hp) and that you could run up to 3 times that as long as you do not try to start at the same time. IE you clould run 30 hp at a time. I have been looking at recent vids. and most say you need twice as much converter hp as largest hp machine you need to start. My planner is 7.5 480 3ph, I recently purchased a 7.5 hp motor to build converter, thoughts?
No I've never heard that one Howie. As a general rule your idler needs to be twice the horsepower that you want to start. So if you have a 7.5hp load, your would need a 15 hp idler.
@@TimWilborne Thanks Tim
Does the start cap come back in when starting a large load like when you use a regular potential relay?
Yes, I'm not sure it is a good practice but when I bog mine down, usually by testing a control panel with a drive that has a lot of inrush when you power it up, mine will bog down and the starting capacitors can kick back in sometimes.
I would say that if this is happening normally then you need a bigger phase converter.
@@TimWilborne I built a 15hp one for a friend with a timer relay instead of a potential relay and reading into it more people say to use the potential relay to keep the start caps in the loop. Now I'm building 2 more. A 20hp and a 30hp and I like the timer aspect of it cause I know the start caps will always fall out. I've read that the potential relay needs to be "SIZED" correctly but no information out there about how to do that.
Edit: heres my RFC
ruclips.net/video/hyjYdEL-80s/видео.html
can you show us the transformer.... you said you step it up.... to 480 I would like to see that .... im just trying to grasp whats missing with the home Solar Units being pushed on the residential homes.... getting that additional phase seems to be a really cheap tweek to the 2 phase Solar Market.... it offers another level of peace of mind to me from what i see.....
Here are a few videos about transformers plus we're going to make one specifically on backfeeding them soon.
How to wire the primary and secondary of a transformer. www.theautomationstore.com/control-wiring-transformer-wiring-primary-and-secondary/
Backfeeding a three phase transformer to make 480VAC. www.theautomationstore.com/how-to-make-3-phase-power-from-single-phase-power-using-a-rotary-phase-converter-including-480vac/
How to make a basic transformer. www.theautomationstore.com/how-do-transformers-work-using-two-contactor-coils-and-a-bolt-to-show-how-magnetic-flux-works/
Could i run a powder coat oven with this?
If it requires 3 phases and you don't have it then this would generate it
Hi can I borrow your circuit for this?
hi brave man
Can you put your bare fingers in the capacitors terminals while the Motor is running?
I just wonder what will happened!!!
nice video. It would be nice if you would post a BOM (Bill of Materials) used to built this converter showing the source as well as the values ie uF and voltages
I start going through that in the following video ruclips.net/video/eXS9ahNzds0/видео.html.
You can't really spec out what size capacitors you'll need but an upcoming video I'm going to give some good general rules.
Where's the schematic diagram every one is asking for?
just tryna keep up but did you mean you have 220 on your primary nd 440 on the secondary cus it sounds like you got it backawards ? not tryna be jerk bro this is serious talk
No, I'm feeding 230 in on the secondary and getting 480 our on the primary. I am " back feeding" the transformer
Did you ever make that video on how to build a rotary phase converter?? I looked on your channel but didn't see it
No, it got pushed to the back burner for other projects, it is still on the list.
@@TimWilborne awesome I'm looking forward to it. I've built one but can't figure out the relay to cut the start capacitors out after it's running
Did you put out a schematic for the build?
Thanks for the information this thing needs a transformer to get 480 is it? I was struggling no-one was talking about it LOL
Yes, there are very few "480 volt" rotary phase converters out there, most of the demand is is for 240V rotary phase converters. I like having both. I need it for testing control systems but even if I didn't, I think I would want both.
Hi,Tim. i am also planning to build the same setup for VFDs and servos testing at home. i have few questions.
can we use static phase convertor (or VFDs ) to feed step up transformer. or rotary is the best?
second which transformer is the best ,a isolation or auto transformer? thanks
What does "pull down that relay" mean? Turn it off or turn it on?
The potential relay? It drops out the starting capacitor.
@@TimWilborne I don't understand the verb "drop" or "pull down" in this context.
Brother that's pretty smart thinking that's what I'm talking about you know how much money you saved by doing this wow
😁
What Hp 3 Phase motor are you using? How many amps were ya drawing?
You double the hp of your load. So if you have 5hp of load than you would need a 10hp idler.
@TimWilborne I friend has a small machine shop. He hand cranks the motor before applying power. It's a huge 3 phase motor. I'll have to look on the tag too just using a small electric washing cabinet.
That's the old school way of doing it. Still works great. Some people will couple a single phase motor to it and use it to spin it up. I like the capacitors because it's a clean setup and I can start it from inside
Can I connect a 100 amp 8 pack welding machine with that add a phase system?
Hi Javier. Yes, welders work fine with rotary phase converters.
I think the question in this case is can you run 8 welding machines that draw 100 amps each of a drop cord and that would be NO.
i love this
Glad to hear it!
I need you to help me 220 1 phase to 3 phase 230-460 at 36-18 amps vid probably need to help startup how do I accomplish this
How does this rotary-transformer/generator scheme work under high loads? Interesting!
Great as long as you don't overload it.
What kind of amperage are you able to run with this set up?
Half of your idler motor's capacity. So if you have a 20hp idler, you can run 10hp worth of load.
@@TimWilborne interesting. Trying to figure out a 3 phase set up. Probably just go with a diesel generator.
That does make it portable which is nice.
@@TimWilborne I think I will just pad mount one and use it for my 3 phase equipment only. I think it will be the most cost effective way to run a single phase system from the power company and the generator for the 3 phase system.
Nice video, I have single phase electricity and I want to run a mill that requires a 25HP motor. What are my options?
That is a big mill. Are you sure it is 25 hp? You would need a 50 hp phase converter.
@@TimWilborne Thanks 4 the reply, am sure coz it used to run on a diesel engine rated 24HP.
I would check it, 2hp would be a large mill. I think mine is 1/2 hp.
Is it a sawmill ?
@@jaspermcconnell6417 No , its a flour mill, in Kenya its called a posho mill, for making maize flour.
hi，i have a question，in USA they manufacture transformer phase converters？
They do make phase shift transformers but I'm not a fan.
Tim Wilborne ok