The Deadly Flaw in SS13's Atmospherics
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- Опубликовано: 1 июн 2020
- Despite the complicated mess of pipes in the atmospherics room on Space Station 13, it still has the potential to kill everyone on the station within 30 days.
Images are from Yogstation github (github.com/Yogstation13/Yogst...) and Yogstation wiki (wiki.yogstation.net) 
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how nice of the nuke ops to blast a hole in the station so all the air can come in from outside
What wholesome people with kind attitude! I am sure they have peaceful intentions.
50 spessmen in a 3x2 room and oxygen deprivation is what kills them?
I think they would escape long before 30 minutes are up.
@@jeremyszpicki491 I think they wouldn't get the chance to escape before they all kill eachother
Clown
50 spessmen in a 3x2 room. You have no idea whether they are alive or not, there's no sounds from the inside. Until you open it you don't know whether they are alive or not. You could call that a Schrodinger Crew.
Usually you'd think an argument would break out, spread through and escalate into a full-blown war between the spessmen.
Great, this makes me feel claustrophobic. Also pretty ironic this happens considering SS13 originated as an atmospherics simulator.
So that's why I always suffocate after long rounds
Loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong rounds?
In long rounds but that aren't nearly long enough for this, the cause of suffocation may be in that server either the pump to atmos is turned off and not a single one of the people online checked to turn it on, or the gas tanks don't have automatic miners and one too many breaches caused the tanks to drain prematurely
As someone who actually has learned a little bit of the atmos systems, I can confirm this is a possibility. Though chances are I already burned the stations oxygen supply making some tritium, so this is the least of the crews worry.
People dying becouse of oxygen starvation was an actual threat on Persistence Quad A era. If you went SSD in one of your rooms then there was a very good chance you would be dead the next day you log in again. A solution I came up with was to simply have a pure oxygen enviorment at 30kPa as 20kPa was the threshold when you started to take damage. Oxygen was expensive and so was air
Man, that sounds like fun
Never heard of Persistence
@@MJRSoap There's a new version being worked on, am very excited.
@@johiahdoesstuff1614 Ill check it out at some point when I'm not burned out on SS13 again which will probably be in 1-2 years.
@@MJRSoap persistence station was like a server running one round that went on for suuuper long amounts of time. never experienced it myself but i heard it was fun. and not gonna lie it definetly sounds like it.
>inb4 admins stuff 50 people into a room for 30 minutes for fun
After 30 minutes 49 of those would be dead anyway because of cabin fever.
Someone has never been in a tiny station bus and it shows.
That's amazing. Atmos is designed to kill you from the get-go.
That's why, as assistant, I always steal gas and open it around the station.
looks the same as the power. requires players to do their jobs and get systems running and right
@@InternetTAB True. Though power isn't set up to any capacity at roundstart, while atmos is prepared with a (slow, but) lethal configuration.
Excellent. Now we need a breakdown of how many spacebux NT saves from not providing 'redundant' oxygen to their crews
"Lets say 2 people are in the dorm rooms doing..things. Actually dont imagine that."
thank you sir my mind was drifting somewhere else
clearly the solution is to instead of 80/20, just flood 100% oxygen all the time, what could go wrong?
@@bartudundar3193 *laughs in IPC*
Even if we won't do anything with flames, your lungs will fucking die from so much O2.
@@tulenich9948 Not in spaceman game
@@tulenich9948 Only codebase where o2 toxicity *might* be modeled is Goon. Probably also the only codebase that models 100% o2 flammability but I'm too lazy to check.
@@BobSmith-cg2ek haha beestation is bad
playing engineer for many games, I had always wondered if this was an issue. I'm glad that it's not something I'd have to worry about very often, but it's strangely comforting to know. I wonder if a good use of circuitry (depending on the server you play on) could allow for a safer atmos system.
or you could put a passive drain on the room, removing the atmosphere and having it be replaced with the properly regulated atmosphere. Then again we all know that kind of situation happens eventually.
If you set the air alarm to cycle, it would work. The scrubber pulls in the air, and the vents push fresh in. But it will lag the atmos system if done so.... meh.
Well you could just swap the distro line from 80%n2/20%o2
To just pure O2 and get the atmos team to manually refill the N2 content of the room if necessary
So 32 days until death? Sounds about the length of an average bay round
How to solve the issue: boost oxygen output to 30% for a day every two weeks. You can't really be outputting pure oxygen all the time, because of air leaks the vents aere also going to replace lost pressure not only filter out carbon dioxide
Just as Nanotrasen planned.
4:10 Well, in my experience, it's the malnutrition that each party gets because they refuse to leave to eat that kills them.
by "refuse to eat" you mean "chef is too busy ERPing" right?
I'm curious - how did you come to that realization?
He coded ZAS + LINDA into a hybrid monstermos system and ported all the atmos in C++ to speed it up. All of that work leads to a lot of realizations.
Good thing the emergency shuttle is always called with little to no reason every 15 minutes because someone died or someone is bored.
This is why I sometimes modify areas of the station to have open flow. (don't forget pumps so that you don't feed the inevitable toxins fire back into your distro)
Now you've done it
Now you made me want to experiment on how to kill a station's worth of crew the most efficiently as a traitor using atmos
If you havent figured out just repipe distro to plasma and bam
@@youruncle2 Ah yes. A classic.
@@youruncle2 you could also use turbine output, way cooler
*Laughs in IPC
Solution: Hook up pure oxy to the vent pipes.
Problem solved. Thank me later, for now I'm gonna go light some can--
💥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
I don’t really see this as an issue, I’d mark it down as intentional design. Atmo techs should be able to replace the vent output with whatever, even plasma, so it’s fine.
yeah just like engineering. it gives players who aren't antags an actual job to do
Atmos manual mixing of percentages of nitrogen to oxygen could fix or at least offset this
Amazing, I think this is like all correct and you are smarter than me, but doesn’t Botany’s trees/plants produce oxygen, and like the scrubbers, also take away the CO2
This is a calculations error by the designer not a bug
Easy solution: Two vents
When oxygen is low, pure oxygen is sent into the room through vent
When nitrogen is low, pure nitrogen through the other vent
When pressure is too high, scrubber renamed to balancer removes air likely to be sent to some atmospheric venting system
Pros: Robust ventilation
Cons: Pure oxygen vent in every room
Hard solution: Atmospheric Sushi Belt
Vent always outputs air, Scrubber takes in air
By default this operates in a closed loop
If high CO2 is detected, loop is redirected through a scrubber, this must at least remove the CO2
If there is low concentrations of a specific gas, that gas is injected
If there is low pressure, air mix is added
If there is high pressure, air is vented
If there is contamination, all scrubbers and vents close and loop is purged, vents wait to reopen upon clear signal
If there is depressurization, emergency detectors in the area are to close the local vents, if loop still depressurizes then close all vents until clear signal
It is wise to split this system into multiple loops so to minimize risk of contamination
Pros: Perfect regulation, safe, realistic, saves gas
Cons: Complicated, contamination risk, station-wide depressurization risk, maintenance required
Cheat solution: Scrubber automatically balances
Scrubber adds oxygen magically when concentration is too low
Pros: Easy, minimal redesign required
Cons: Magic
Solution even children can do: Just change the mix
You can survive with slightly elevated oxygen levels, but not with slightly reduced, so change the ratio
Pros: Its literally the optimal way
Cons: One person will complain even though iirc even the International Space Station uses an elevated oxygen content
This is long dead but I have a bit of input. Seems like the best solution would be a few lines of code put into an air alarm. If oxygen%
It's funny how air (problem) can be solved by simply making self-res virus. People don't need air beacase they *aren't breathing*. This can backfire however if not all crew infected and they suffer suffocation. Our men just died in med cos we couldn't make CRP cos we CAN'T breath.
But here is better question. How long would plasmamen can survive on station with plasma only?
You'll have to take however much plasma exists in the plasma cell in atmos and divide it amongst all the plasmemes. (Usually 1 or 2 on high pop).
Then take into account the fact you can't make use of the last few mols of plasma in a the tank. Assuming each plasmeme is carrying a pocket tank and a large tank. Thats still a small amount of plasma you can't make use of.
There is also the plasma ore you have to collect across the station as that can be turned into gas. A good amount spawns in xenobio.
But also all of this is pointless since Xenobio can produce infinite plasma with dark purple slimes. Inject a single unit (dropper) into a dark purple core and you get 3 sheets of plasma out. Each sheet is 15 units of liquid plasma. Repeat adinfinitum for infinite plasma.
That or just fill a canister in atmos. Build a sealed room in space and finish it with blueprints. Have an airlock with 2 atmos holofans so people can get in and out without spacing atmos. Then open a plasma canister in the otherwise empty room at 101kpa and have a room only plasmames can live in.
Also flamethrowers don't work in this room since there is no o2. Plasmemes also do not combust without their envirosuits in this room for the same reason. If you have a fully sealed room with no o2 in it. A plasmeme will not combust.
Also heres a tip about holofans and minifans. They don't actually stop air from moving. They just freeze the contents of the tile. They can still be consumed and scrubbed with a mobile scrubber but no air will enter OR exit that tile so long as the minifan or holofan is in place.
Man I remember when holofans and minifans did'nt exist. Good times
Amazing. I want more
(How would one fix this? Make the vents output O2 only and have atmos techs come in with a massive repressurizer pump to get the air mix back in when breaches occur?)
There are several ways to fix this. One would be to have separate lines for O2 and N2, and have separate vents for them - you'd have to modify the vent code to *only* look at the O2/N2 concentration at the output. Another potential way would be to add the ability for scrubbers to specify a "limit" for how much of a gas you can have on a tile, instead of just scrubbing all of it - for example it'd scrub any N2 past 80 kPa or something.
@@monster860 Yeah, the second method sounds better. Maybe the UI could be implemented with a "secondary scrub" option that would open a dropdown with a selection for a single gas and an external pressure regulator.
make vents and scrubbers have extra settings, able to set a limit on scrubbers to scrub out any excess of any gas, and vents to only output a specified gas to a specified ratio (so if oxygen is below limit but nitrogen is at limit, it outputs just o2, if both are below it outputs both until 1 hits its limit then it will only output what hasnt hit the limit etc...)
@@monster860 it would be nice but due to ss13 old and lackluster code. that is a challenge to overcome. the best way to do it is to make ss13 in a new engine entirely from the ground up to be more modular and modifiable.
@@projectkepleren There is an SS14 made with Unity. I'd rather have a less janky BYOND, though.
im pretty sure you breath in a quantity of the rooms gases passively sure you convert the 02 to c02 but your character allso passively well breathes the other gases quantity depending on presure so wouldent you breathe the n2 as well?
hey arent scrubber can detect when one gas is above "good level for breath"? Like if too much oxygen it gonna scrub it out and if too much n2 it gonna scrub it out too then
do this mean that well it not a flaw
That could be fixed by changing the air mix in the pipes.
The scrubbers would also have to take in some nitrogen to work correctly so the pressure wouldn't slowly rise
interesting! I've just read the full wiki page on atmospherics before I got here, and it really does have some issues :O
I don't see the problem to be honest. you have the option to replace the air in a room already. so the atmos techs would only have to actually work once or twice per month to keep people alive
feeling light-headed? must be time for the monthly air-cycling!
whats the background music?
the math we did not ask for but the math we needed
plasmamen: i do not suffer from such a problem
Solution! Just pump in pure 02 instead of mix, since the added gas doesn't get filtered out so you dont need to replace it.
wait, is this the solution or am i just dumb? holy crap that sounds pretty good.
@@puiu102006 Sure, it'd work just fine, aside from the fact that you'd be pumping a pure oxidizer into a typically very flame-inducing environment.
1. 33 days is more than enough time to force everyone to have advanced cybernetic lungs (reduced oxy needed to live can't remember the exact numbers) or turn them into Androids through Xenobio (The superior lifeform)
2. A competent atmos tech with a couple dozen holofans can clear all atmos in a room and refill it solving the reduced oxy issue. (have fun finding one though)
3. The biggest issue is the fact the station is going to run out of oxy in atmos first if the atmos techs don't set up an atmos harvester on lavaland or order o2 canisters from cargo. (Unless it's Kilo which some codebases have gas miners in)
4. It's more likely you'll run out of air mix and pure o2 before the 33 days mark (can happen in an hour if you run the turbine).
There are gas miners, at least on yogs, they only exist in syndie outpost (lavaland and in spess) amd DEEP storage. you could probobly get the gas using bluespace pipes
@@monochrome3168 1. I know miners exist, some version of Kilo have them.
2. What the FUCK is a bluespace pipe.
@@MJRSoap wait does tg not have bluespace pipes? They're atmos pipes that can teleport gas between eachother.
@@monochrome3168 I haven't played /tg/ in over 2 years. I last worked on Bee (ha ha kilo still dead, my fault) almost a year ago. ((I'm NOT Okand, he must have been high as shit when he made the original Kilo with all the problems it has, if you remove all the decals on the map, which takes fucking forever, server FPS improves from about 10-14 to a stable 20 most of the time.))
@@MJRSoap i play on yogs...
I would imagine that lore wise, Centcomm would send frequent Oxygen tanks/refills since there's no way to produce oxygen on station other than slight amounts from botany, but that amount is insignificant.
We could also assume that we have been on the station for a while. This would explain the early shuttle call every few rounds. XD
So spaceing is the best way of execution again
I simply fill the vents with cyanide gas so this isn't a issue
This is really cool but the solution is not so simple. If you make the vents infuse pure O2 and, for whatever reason, the area gets vacuumed (either by a hole to space, plasma fire scrubbing, whatever else), then you may end up with an atmosphere of very high concentrations of O2. High concentrations of O2 are toxic to humans, so that'd probably kill you faster than in 30 days.
Perhaps the system would need to be able to detect a full-capacity versus low-pressure atmosphere. If it's the latter case, it would pump regular air. If the former, it'd pump pure O2. I'm sure a fancy equation could even be used to alter the air-to-O2 ratio pumped by the vents depending on the particular atmosphere of the area.
problem is you need a whole entire second pipenet for that and there is absolutely no space
You missunderstand how air alarms and vents work, the vents won't mindlessly replace JUST the lost oxygen on the atmosphere with JUST mixed air, they will regulate the mixture of gasses on a turf to the percentages set by the air alarm by supplying precisely what's missing from the turf's atmosphere as a percentage (and respecting if the entire turf has the designated ammount of pressure in kilopascals already met)
True, the numbers will spike when repressurizing an area, be it because of a hull breach or time and ammount of people (this makes itself even faster on Baycode, try and share an operating theatre with two people and a monkey and you'll see in around five minutes how the air alarm spikes orange) but that also depends on how a server's code handle gasses (and fire), but air alarms by itself and through only the passage of time, with no other external inference than number of spessmen breathing on a designated turf, will always try to meet a quota.
I've seen people standing on a single tile surrounded by walls on tgcode for like half an hour without running out of oxygen, if you do the same on baycode you'll most surely die...
Vents do no such things, they just spit out the gas inside them. Just takes a LONG time until this kinda thing would kill a player.
Math make brainmeat hurt, ouch
What sort of madlad would ERP for 12 hours straight?
oh hey its that one guy from the discord
If only you could automatically make it scrub nitrogen once it goes above a certain concentration. Hmmmmmmm
what the hell happens around xeno, with all those monkeys and slimes?
slimes don't breathe they aren't carbons
Based.
what's your profile picture? it's nice.
H.A.L open the podbay airlocks... H.A.L?
Monster, the fuck are you on about now?
and do plasmamen breathe plasma at the same rate? Simplemobs like cats, dogs, parrots ETC?
Just set the scrubbers to filter for CO2 and N2, problem solved with zero risky changes.
*pressure damage intensifies*
also thats how you let a traitor miner actually use the PKA on station.
Honestly the vent/scrubber system is more of a mis-understanding on how your supposed to scrub a room. The air should be cycling constantly but we can't do that because of lag:P I mean even with you monstermos system, still need to be be able have the scrubbers pull in a little air so the vents turn on.
Humm. Why not just vents? one vent pushes air and the other vent consntantly sucks it.
a scrubber is a vent that does that is it not?
but the air alarms will save us... right..?
no they do jack shit except whining on the alert computer and controlling vents and scrubbers
The dorm joke is even funnier comming from a furry erper
the solution to this is let the scrubbers scrub everything and just redo the mix in atmos itself
the problem with that is I seem to remember vents only pumping in - no matter the pressure in pipe or room - some 40l per second or so, if you need 2.5k litres in a tile scrubbers are gonna scrub haha they gonna scroooooooooooooooooooooooooo
huh how about, nitrogen and oxygen in TWO pipes going to the vents. the meter in the room tells how much to add. scrubber works the same.
We could make that work now with layers, but they'd have to redo Atmosia and the mappers definitely aren't up to that
based and atmospilled
but other then that 10/10 video
Well we are dying and nobody is doinstuff
Thing is, people don't use up oxygen in ss13
yes they do lol
The video no one asked for hah.
I'm going to make everyone switch to oxygen masks at rounds start because we need to completely recycle the air so we don't die in 30 days
Just as planned.
Nnnnnnnnnnneat. Atmos is still fucking black magic, but just the outline to the issue was super informative.
guy playing malf ai with this information) turns off atmos and seals everybody in a small room for hours on end with no hope of escape :MALF AI STATES "EASY CLAP" *clap
imagine how boring a round would be if this happend
this statement would be so funny
Yeah now I see why Goonstation decentralised their atmos system…
Yeah we really gotta worry about those 1000h+ sessions💀
What's up with your voice? Do you have laringitis?
he has ligma
Can you please talk louder and a bit faster?
Just be a better spaceman. This is completely a non issue unless you're a crackhead and play for literally enough time to exhaust the oxygen supply. Regardless the air exchange system is and always has been this way. What this is also not taking into account are several factors including cargo shipments, chemistry fuckery, and space adaptation mutation with augmented lungs. Factor in IPC not needing oxygen at all, and the ability to Borg people, and you're looking at some real tomfoolery. People only die in this amount of time if you assume they do nothing. There are many ways to make easy, infinitely renewable cash for cargo to buy atmospherics things with. A problem is only a problem until a good enough spaceman steps up to bat.
this was theoretical mate...
*laughs in baystation 12 hours round
literally gives something for atmos techs to do lol i fail the see the issue
This is so nice. I Had candy For breakfast! See ya :O