10 years. If. making the graphene survive the environmental factors is hard. U manchester has a group approaching this as well - their approach is make multiple layers with controlled 'holes' - align them to correct size of final hole for water permeability and then bond a rigid material to that sandwich. So you'd have a patch of this stuff that would be durable enough to be used in things like a pouring filter, or as a portal in the side wall of a retaining device which would hold the reject and allow the pure water to leave it for capture and use. Imagine a bucket with patches like that in it, put the bucket in the source water and then pump the clean water from the bucket as it fills...
@@lylestavast7652 there is no reason why it should take 10 years the issues facing graphene as a membrane already face other materials bing used as membranes right now in RO desal
It's not hard to speculate and bring up the concept. This tech is and was known about for a long time. The Real problem is how the hell are you going to build your Graphene layers on the molecular level that is cost effective -_- with of course the tiny, tiny breaks in the layers.
+Christopher Leger Actually no... forget that. Better. Make a unit that can be built inexpensively AND feasible for 3rd world countries to make without importing.
Amazing!! But ; Is it feasible using graphene? How long does it take to be in market ? Does this work efficiently in large scale? Many lab experiments are working very successfuly in labs but fail in industrial & large scale plants Wish you Good Luck
I believe a hybrid solution would be the best alternative where the membranes of today act as the structure onto which the graphene can be placed making the membrane stronger and upping the water flow.
Why hasn't anyone made a really big solar distillery? A massive one that takes up a few acres? Only power required would be for pumps and temperature management. And only problem would be disposing of the salt regularly. Something like that could probably produce loads of water while leaving salt behind and using a fraction of the power as a large water filtration plant.
Problem with this is that pure water is extremely corrosive. I had a solar water purifier before and the water tasted like plastic, as pure water ions removed any free H+ ions. Thus the only materials that appear to be useful as it's components must be made of glass or ceramics (metal will rust, plastics disintegrate etc).
Water is the most problem in my country most of it desert. Desalination is very costly & we have to find less cost to produce fresh water...thanx for info.
Bad idea. When you make a hole in the graphene, the edges of the hole react with many chemicals dissolved in the water. Silicon is less reactive than graphene, and it can be shaped like the graphene - maybe it will do the job? Another idea is to trap iron atoms in buckyballs (C60 fullerenes), so that they become magnetic, and filter the water through a stack of the buckyballs held in place by a magnet.
Graphine so far is conductible, you can straight throw it in the compost pile, it won't harm the environment, can be used as a battery source...now for cleaning water? This stuff is best Earth-saving thing!
so basically its thin layer non-composite membrane? this really looks interesting but I'm not sure about rejection and scaling and fouling properties of such membrane.
This has helped me a lot for my research project in language arts class. I chose Jeffrey Grossman and what I've found was stuff about desalinating water.
This sounds very promising, as the ultimate limit to food production is simply fresh water availability. Coupled with solar power in the equatorial regions and beach wells, the Sahara and many other regions could well become huge exporters of food while producing abundant food for all their inhabitants. If prosperity in the basic sense is achieved globally, the population curve will level off, resource wars may become a thing of the past. Coupled with common elements, the future looks sunny!
I'd like to know what is the probability for a single sodium ion to cross the barrier? There are 1e11 such attempts per second. How many of them are successful? If you are doing molecular dynamics It could be possible to estimate that number.
This remembers me the anecdote of Nasrudin about teaching his donkey to read: "One day, Nasruddin was at the king’s court when the king turned to him and said, “Mulla Nasruddin, you are always boasting about your wisdom and cleverness. So tell me, can you teach your donkey how to read?” Nasruddin replied, “Of course! That’s quite an easy task.” “I don’t believe you,” said the king. “I mean it and I can prove it to you,” said Nasruddin. The king said, “Would you take it on as a challenge, then?” “Absolutely,” replied Nasruddin. “If you give me fifty thousand dollars right now, I guarantee that by the end of eight years, I will have taught my donkey how to read.” The king said, “Fine, I agree. But my condition is that if the donkey is unable to read by then, I will have you put in prison where you will be tortured every day.” Both of them agreed to this deal and Nasruddin left for home. The next day, Nasruddin told his friend about what had happened at the king’s court. His friend said, “Nasruddin, how could you ever agree to such an impossible task? You cannot even control your donkey enough to make it stand still, and now you have guaranteed that in eight years you would have taught him how to read? There is no way you can escape that prison sentence.” “Relax,” replied Nasruddin calmly. “Eight years is a long time, my friend! By then, our king will probably be dead or he will not be in power anymore. And even if he is still the king at the end of eight years, chances are that my donkey would be dead by then. Worse come to worse, if by the end of seven years, both the king and my donkey are alive, I will still have one whole year to devise a plan to escape punishment."
Would this work with Forward Osmosis? Reverse osmosis takes a lot of electricity to push against the osmotic gradient. With Forward osmosis no pressure is needed, just a temperature gradient to separate out the draw salt. While not necessarily more energy efficient the heat source can be a waste heat source from other industrial activity. Essentially a free source of energy. Bio-fauling would also less of a problem since the higher salt gradient with serve to retarded bacterial overgrowth. Just thinking?
if you get a small enough hole close to the side of a water molecule, they'll join in a stream and flow through without pressure... simply putting it on the side of a vessel containing the source could work... keeping the reject from fouling the orifice gets to be an issue as the pure water gets drawn away...
awesome now where do we get some graphene from . . .its like telling Doc Brown we need 1.21 gigawatts. I'm sure in 2032 graphene is available in every corner drug store but in 2012 it a little hard to come by
everybody takes credit somehow for Graphene. so many ppl that want to seam so smart... so many scientists that wanna impress, but only a hand full that realy matters ! hah.
The graphene membrane production is costly even with economics of scales. 2D graphene cant be produced in a single large molecular sheet, for they tend to be in flakes and are compressed to make into other structures.
@@jameszhang9326 Still, building a new desalination plant is also expensive. The question is whether to refit existing plants, if possible, or build new desalination facilities.
@@sharkseatmoreYou can perform costing analysis based on some textbook formulas adjusted to the market rates. The degree of retrofit doesnt seem that large, but there are still more affordable alternatives. Building additional (newer / more novel) desalination plants may not be bad strategically, but still they require resources and time. You could better park the investments elsewhere, lol.
If you used a base to put the nano filter on and you would use a drum wherein the water rotated around and use the spiraling motion to wash out the filter ??? And than spray out some water to let these mists pfcwater evaporate as much as you can and put the slays back into the Sea and use the resulting cooling as a way to create a temperature difference !! If you used this system to clean out the oceans to !!!
Is it possible to use nano tech somehow to bind to sodium chloride then use magnetics to remove the nano particles from water. Anyone have any ideas on this. I've been asking about this for some time. The idea is there but I don't know enough on how to even attempt to make it work.
Cold Steam the efficient way to use the sun or composting and rocket stoves as heat sources to produce electricity and or distilled water explained from basic concept to employment. Water boils in a vacuum at 75 F or 24 C Two open containers one full of water the other empty connect them at the bottom and water will reach an equilibrium 50 50. If one is sealed except for the connection the other will remain empty because of the vacuum created in the sealed container. Gravity will overcome this vacuum if the containers are taller than 34 feet. If the tanks are 40 feet tall the tanks will reach an equilibrium of water levels at 34 feet leaving six feet of hard vacuum in the sealed tank. This makes a vacuum pump set we need two of them if we were going to distill water as the cold side open tank is used to collect the distilled water from it as the continuous input of water needs to go somewhere. Each sealed tank has four valves three at the top two of those on opposite sides (B&C) one at the very top (D) one at the bottom on the side (A), water-based vacuum pump operations are, Close bottom tank valve A and top tank valve C. Open top tank valve D. Fill sealed tank through top side valve B. Close valve B and D when full. Open bottom valve A. This primes the system to let the warm water in that will vaporize and run through the system when you partially reopen valve B (to control flow rate) and open valve C to its fullest. For only power generation need one pump set and one vacuum tank so we can have a Hot side and a Cold side one to boil the water and one to have the low pressure/vacuum to draw the steam in through the turbine then the cooling coils then to the tank. At the bottom of the cold side, tank is a return pipe with the one way valve to the heat source the one-way valve prevents expansion back to the cold side and as the hot side vacuum chamber is the only outlet for the expanding water and it is drawn by the vacuum the cycle proceeds. You can combine the two and get power generation and distilled water keeping the return line from the power generation system will let you switch if you don't need distilled water on a continuous basis in large quantities. I am going to make one feel free to make one as well it is open source.
Does the screen allow minerals through or maintain the natural non-mineral qualities? De-sal'ed water alone is not healthy as reports of increased cancer and "white" organs where de-sal is primary are more common than elsewhere. In those places, the water providers seek to mix the de-sal water with natural water. A study by KSA said 25% natural mixed in was adequate.
Ok, graphene has some amazing properties, granted. But even if we could manufacture this tricky material, manage to perforate it with microscopic holes that would allow water to flow but salt molecules not - what about the rest of the problem? We would still need to pump hundreds of millions of gallons of water through this magical membrane material which will com eat a cost of a large carbon footprint from burning fossil fuels. Then what about the salt - where do we store that?
We can efficiently control the amount of emissions coming from power plants that will produce the energy needed to run the pumps. Even with current desalination methods, the cost of desalination is expected to match the cost of water purchases, irrigation, and water production. These costs are expected to rise as droughts worsen. Graphene is a material that has 100x the water permeability of current desalination membranes. IF we are able to create graphene cheaply and efficiency, we will decrease the required power needed to pump water through them, and therefore reduce our emissions due to desalination. The cost of water production through desalination may then match the cost of other means of production through this process. However, I agree. We must continue to search for new methods of desalination and TDS removal.
So you think people work for free? When you do research and create an industrial process that changes the world and give it away for free, then I will take your comment seriously.
All you need to hear is graphine to know this is shit. There is a reason why they have only thus far modeled this in the computer. Graphine could solve almost all our problems, but it's a pipe dream with current technology. Also, this guy has an annoying voice.
***** um, no they haven't just modeled this in a computer, and don't be a dick. "The team has been testing their system out in several villages across India since 2014, and have been using the Brackish Groundwater National Desalination Research Facility in the US to run 24-hour tests to analyse its efficiency and cost of maintenance. According to Mary Beth Griggs at Popular Science, in just 24 hours, their system can remove the salt from 2,100 gallons (7,950 litres)."
we can beat that..easily...we can provide you a billion gallons a day or more.... at 1 per thousand..simple...doc johnny.. wont take you 10 years to build..maybe 6 months...how silly the world is..thats cheaper than you pay now hahaha
+Proloco47chev depends on your religion. In my perspective, thank said "religion" for blessing us with the arms, legs, and BRAIN to come up with these ideas and providing the elements for us to make it possible. Brainwashed dumbass. :)
But how do you solve the contaminant accumulation problem?
will you need to change the filter each time? and where does the salt go?
Fayez Alfayez the salt goes to dota2 and lol player
Please get this into commercial production as soon as possible thank you.
Yon Kromis they just figured out two ways to make graphene much easier
+Ben Cameron How long do you think it'll take until this would be available? If not doable by us average people? lol :)
10 years. If. making the graphene survive the environmental factors is hard. U manchester has a group approaching this as well - their approach is make multiple layers with controlled 'holes' - align them to correct size of final hole for water permeability and then bond a rigid material to that sandwich. So you'd have a patch of this stuff that would be durable enough to be used in things like a pouring filter, or as a portal in the side wall of a retaining device which would hold the reject and allow the pure water to leave it for capture and use. Imagine a bucket with patches like that in it, put the bucket in the source water and then pump the clean water from the bucket as it fills...
@@lylestavast7652 there is no reason why it should take 10 years
the issues facing graphene as a membrane already face other materials bing used as membranes right now in RO desal
It's not hard to speculate and bring up the concept. This tech is and was known about for a long time. The Real problem is how the hell are you going to build your Graphene layers on the molecular level that is cost effective -_- with of course the tiny, tiny breaks in the layers.
+Christopher Leger Actually no... forget that. Better. Make a unit that can be built inexpensively AND feasible for 3rd world countries to make without importing.
Absolutely amazing. This is not my field of science, but that doesn't mean I cannot be in awe of it. You will change the world for the better, MIT.
Amazing!! But ; Is it feasible using graphene? How long does it take to be in market ? Does this work efficiently in large scale? Many lab experiments are working very successfuly in labs but fail in industrial & large scale plants
Wish you Good Luck
I believe a hybrid solution would be the best alternative where the membranes of today act as the structure onto which the graphene can be placed making the membrane stronger and upping the water flow.
Why hasn't anyone made a really big solar distillery? A massive one that takes up a few acres? Only power required would be for pumps and temperature management.
And only problem would be disposing of the salt regularly.
Something like that could probably produce loads of water while leaving salt behind and using a fraction of the power as a large water filtration plant.
Problem with this is that pure water is extremely corrosive. I had a solar water purifier before and the water tasted like plastic, as pure water ions removed any free H+ ions. Thus the only materials that appear to be useful as it's components must be made of glass or ceramics (metal will rust, plastics disintegrate etc).
Would love to see this in commercial use, as a window washer we use pure water technology and this would have huge benefits
Water is the most problem in my country most of it desert. Desalination is very costly & we have to find less cost to produce fresh water...thanx for info.
Salt. Somebody must come up with an idea to put this salt to a good use.
iglooo102 Take a look at the Dead Sea chemical industry
iglooo102 They already have. Trace mineral hippies are all over the place in SLC.
No...just how most people abbrv. New to the net are we? LOL! Let me know if you need to have that one explained. :D
@@SimonRichardMasters The Dead Sea chemical industry is mostly on Palestinian land the Israelis illegally seized...
Great Garaphene Tec research is vital for BCM scale Desal plants development and MIT teams will achieve this goal.
hope to see this implemented in the future soon
Utilize the pressure from the depth of the sea in the process of reverse osmosis
Bad idea. When you make a hole in the graphene, the edges of the hole react with many chemicals dissolved in the water. Silicon is less reactive than graphene, and it can be shaped like the graphene - maybe it will do the job? Another idea is to trap iron atoms in buckyballs (C60 fullerenes), so that they become magnetic, and filter the water through a stack of the buckyballs held in place by a magnet.
Graphine so far is conductible, you can straight throw it in the compost pile, it won't harm the environment, can be used as a battery source...now for cleaning water? This stuff is best Earth-saving thing!
so basically its thin layer non-composite membrane? this really looks interesting but I'm not sure about rejection and scaling and fouling properties of such membrane.
This sounds great. However, isn't this what the engineers at Northrup Grumman developed?
This has helped me a lot for my research project in language arts class. I chose Jeffrey Grossman and what I've found was stuff about desalinating water.
This sounds very promising, as the ultimate limit to food production is simply fresh water availability. Coupled with solar power in the equatorial regions and beach wells, the Sahara and many other regions could well become huge exporters of food while producing abundant food for all their inhabitants. If prosperity in the basic sense is achieved globally, the population curve will level off, resource wars may become a thing of the past. Coupled with common elements, the future looks sunny!
The graphene structure looks like it could withstand forces vertically but can it resist sideways forces?
So in terms of efficiency and cost, how does this compare to Dean Kamen's slingshot machine?
I'd like to know what is the probability for a single sodium ion to cross the barrier? There are 1e11 such attempts per second. How many of them are successful? If you are doing molecular dynamics It could be possible to estimate that number.
Graphene oxide would be hundreds of times more porous and efficient than nanoporous graphene.
it can be used for producing pure water.
Because water contains a lot of ions,colloidal materials, etc.
so it will be expensive.
what is the process used in the Ro reject instead of evaporation
Ok. I generally hope that facts and logic are enough to change perspectives whether online or not.
Apparently not this time.
which camera did you use to record this video?
This remembers me the anecdote of Nasrudin about teaching his donkey to read:
"One day, Nasruddin was at the king’s court when the king turned to him and said, “Mulla Nasruddin, you are always boasting about your wisdom and cleverness. So tell me, can you teach your donkey how to read?”
Nasruddin replied, “Of course! That’s quite an easy task.”
“I don’t believe you,” said the king.
“I mean it and I can prove it to you,” said Nasruddin.
The king said, “Would you take it on as a challenge, then?”
“Absolutely,” replied Nasruddin. “If you give me fifty thousand dollars right now, I guarantee that by the end of eight years, I will have taught my donkey how to read.”
The king said, “Fine, I agree. But my condition is that if the donkey is unable to read by then, I will have you put in prison where you will be tortured every day.”
Both of them agreed to this deal and Nasruddin left for home.
The next day, Nasruddin told his friend about what had happened at the king’s court. His friend said, “Nasruddin, how could you ever agree to such an impossible task? You cannot even control your donkey enough to make it stand still, and now you have guaranteed that in eight years you would have taught him how to read? There is no way you can escape that prison sentence.”
“Relax,” replied Nasruddin calmly. “Eight years is a long time, my friend! By then, our king will probably be dead or he will not be in power anymore. And even if he is still the king at the end of eight years, chances are that my donkey would be dead by then. Worse come to worse, if by the end of seven years, both the king and my donkey are alive, I will still have one whole year to devise a plan to escape punishment."
How can we help?
Would this work with Forward Osmosis? Reverse osmosis takes a lot of electricity to push against the osmotic gradient. With Forward osmosis no pressure is needed, just a temperature gradient to separate out the draw salt. While not necessarily more energy efficient the heat source can be a waste heat source from other industrial activity. Essentially a free source of energy. Bio-fauling would also less of a problem since the higher salt gradient with serve to retarded bacterial overgrowth. Just thinking?
if you get a small enough hole close to the side of a water molecule, they'll join in a stream and flow through without pressure... simply putting it on the side of a vessel containing the source could work... keeping the reject from fouling the orifice gets to be an issue as the pure water gets drawn away...
if i wanted to devote myself to helping this process along what field of study would be useful to this goal?
Andy Herbert materials science, maybe chemistry and some other fields. But I could be wrong.
awesome now where do we get some graphene from . . .its like telling Doc Brown we need 1.21 gigawatts. I'm sure in 2032 graphene is available in every corner drug store but in 2012 it a little hard to come by
everybody takes credit somehow for Graphene. so many ppl that want to seam so smart... so many scientists that wanna impress, but only a hand full that realy matters ! hah.
So could existing desalinization plants be retrofitted with graphene membranes or are new plants needed?
The graphene membrane production is costly even with economics of scales. 2D graphene cant be produced in a single large molecular sheet, for they tend to be in flakes and are compressed to make into other structures.
@@jameszhang9326 Still, building a new desalination plant is also expensive. The question is whether to refit existing plants, if possible, or build new desalination facilities.
@@sharkseatmoreYou can perform costing analysis based on some textbook formulas adjusted to the market rates. The degree of retrofit doesnt seem that large, but there are still more affordable alternatives. Building additional (newer / more novel) desalination plants may not be bad strategically, but still they require resources and time. You could better park the investments elsewhere, lol.
yea and my burn toast is also graphene but it doesn't mean it will stop a bullet. just waiting for more nano tech
If you used a base to put the nano filter on and you would use a drum wherein the water rotated around and use the spiraling motion to wash out the filter ???
And than spray out some water to let these mists pfcwater evaporate as much as you can and put the slays back into the Sea and use the resulting cooling as a way to create a temperature difference !!
If you used this system to clean out the oceans to !!!
can i know please, what is the used software for this simulations?
Haha After 5 years .. its done by vmd and LAMMPS
Is it possible to use nano tech somehow to bind to sodium chloride then use magnetics to remove the nano particles from water. Anyone have any ideas on this. I've been asking about this for some time. The idea is there but I don't know enough on how to even attempt to make it work.
Cost issues. Even the recycling processes are expensive. You wouldn't want ridiculously expensive water.
This may be the best way to save ourselves from rising sea level just drink it.
Graphene seems like the best shit ever.
very good idea
Wait... A single molecule layer withstanding the pressure required for salt water desalination?
search U manchester - a guy name Nair - they have approaches to this issue.
How can I participate in this project?
Cold Steam the efficient way to use the sun or composting and rocket stoves as heat sources to produce electricity and or distilled water explained from basic concept to employment. Water boils in a vacuum at 75 F or 24 C
Two open containers one full of water the other empty connect them at the bottom and water will reach an equilibrium 50 50. If one is sealed except for the connection the other will remain empty because of the vacuum created in the sealed container.
Gravity will overcome this vacuum if the containers are taller than 34 feet.
If the tanks are 40 feet tall the tanks will reach an equilibrium of water levels at 34 feet leaving six feet of hard vacuum in the sealed tank. This makes a vacuum pump set we need two of them if we were going to distill water as the cold side open tank is used to collect the distilled water from it as the continuous input of water needs to go somewhere.
Each sealed tank has four valves three at the top two of those on opposite sides (B&C) one at the very top (D) one at the bottom on the side (A), water-based vacuum pump operations are, Close bottom tank valve A and top tank valve C. Open top tank valve D. Fill sealed tank through top side valve B. Close valve B and D when full. Open bottom valve A.
This primes the system to let the warm water in that will vaporize and run through the system when you partially reopen valve B (to control flow rate) and open valve C to its fullest.
For only power generation need one pump set and one vacuum tank so we can have a Hot side and a Cold side one to boil the water and one to have the low pressure/vacuum to draw the steam in through the turbine then the cooling coils then to the tank.
At the bottom of the cold side, tank is a return pipe with the one way valve to the heat source the one-way valve prevents expansion back to the cold side and as the hot side vacuum chamber is the only outlet for the expanding water and it is drawn by the vacuum the cycle proceeds.
You can combine the two and get power generation and distilled water keeping the return line from the power generation system will let you switch if you don't need distilled water on a continuous basis in large quantities.
I am going to make one feel free to make one as well it is open source.
Barskor1 fascinating concept. What do your calculations say about energy requirements per gallon on water produced?
Why not offer a billion dollar prize to anyone who can find a method of desalination that is cost competitive with the watershed.
Take a pencil and draw a line on a sheet of paper. You have just produced graphene
Look up Graphene industries for more information
Graphene industry
Does the screen allow minerals through or maintain the natural non-mineral qualities? De-sal'ed water alone is not healthy as reports of increased cancer and "white" organs where de-sal is primary are more common than elsewhere. In those places, the water providers seek to mix the de-sal water with natural water. A study by KSA said 25% natural mixed in was adequate.
Ok, graphene has some amazing properties, granted. But even if we could manufacture this tricky material, manage to perforate it with microscopic holes that would allow water to flow but salt molecules not - what about the rest of the problem? We would still need to pump hundreds of millions of gallons of water through this magical membrane material which will com eat a cost of a large carbon footprint from burning fossil fuels. Then what about the salt - where do we store that?
We can efficiently control the amount of emissions coming from power plants that will produce the energy needed to run the pumps. Even with current desalination methods, the cost of desalination is expected to match the cost of water purchases, irrigation, and water production. These costs are expected to rise as droughts worsen.
Graphene is a material that has 100x the water permeability of current desalination membranes. IF we are able to create graphene cheaply and efficiency, we will decrease the required power needed to pump water through them, and therefore reduce our emissions due to desalination. The cost of water production through desalination may then match the cost of other means of production through this process.
However, I agree. We must continue to search for new methods of desalination and TDS removal.
Whoa.
what would the cost per square inch of the fabric cost?
Wow! This is really awesome!
oh this is excellent news
Water every were but not a drop to drink..
Wasting of time, you know graphene cost? Better is just boil away the water...
So you think people work for free? When you do research and create an industrial process that changes the world and give it away for free, then I will take your comment seriously.
adam sandler!?
moderland
All you need to hear is graphine to know this is shit. There is a reason why they have only thus far modeled this in the computer. Graphine could solve almost all our problems, but it's a pipe dream with current technology. Also, this guy has an annoying voice.
***** um, no they haven't just modeled this in a computer, and don't be a dick.
"The team has been testing their system out in several villages across India since 2014, and have been using the Brackish Groundwater National Desalination Research Facility in the US to run 24-hour tests to analyse its efficiency and cost of maintenance. According to Mary Beth Griggs at Popular Science, in just 24 hours, their system can remove the salt from 2,100 gallons (7,950 litres)."
mouth noises
we can beat that..easily...we can provide you a billion gallons a day or more.... at 1 per thousand..simple...doc johnny..
wont take you 10 years to build..maybe 6 months...how silly the world is..thats cheaper than you pay now hahaha
once again, science beats religion.
+Proloco47chev depends on your religion. In my perspective, thank said "religion" for blessing us with the arms, legs, and BRAIN to come up with these ideas and providing the elements for us to make it possible.
Brainwashed dumbass. :)
Wow! This is really awesome!