Hydroblast/Blue Elemental Blast also look incredibly strong in the current meta against powerful red spells like Name-Sticker Goblin, Muxus, Fable of the Mirror Breaker, and Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon.
Mana Drain used to be really good, and its power has gone down comparatively since its ban, but i think the idea is that blue/control is already so powerful that adding another powerful 2MV counter is unnecessary.
What do you see it displacing? It would be surprising if a 4x Mana Drain deck were viable. Mind’s Desire showed us the past is not a solid indicator of how strong a card would be today.
@@ELDsTimeVaultGames There's plenty of UW/Jeskai control decks that run straight-up counterspell to deal with the vast array of any type of cards their opponents throw at them. I think with Lorien Revealed in the format, this would be pretty viable. 2-mana draw 2 most of the time.
Whilst i ageee it should be unbanned, i think its probably #5. It's different, trying to place it in the: beat all in strategies pile is a mis-categorization, it's made for a different type of deck, and would probably become a staple in 7-10% of the new meta if legalized.
That'd be awesome if a whole new archtype emerges. As it is now, winning a counter battle with 2 mana spells isn't really looking likely. I suspect The One Ring would be a great followup to draining a large spell.
@@ELDsTimeVaultGames yes, or even things at 5 or 6 that are op. That's what I'm saying it's not a battle counter spell whatsoever. But it counters spells all the same, and with more value next main*
@ELDsTimeVaultGames yeah. Fluster is a good sideboard card against several decks, but on powerlevel is way below drain. Source: my vintage cube and cedh experience. I haven't played too much legacy, and besides standstill, there isn't a deck that immediately comes to mind that would use a playset of drains, but I'm sure new decks would emerge and decks like narset echo stompy could change a few slots to accommodate it.
Manadrain would just go in jewel PO In vintage it’s played more in paper than online. Edit: all you mentioned is from xerox decks lol not better options
Strong disagree. Jewel is not sitting back with UU+ open. I think the fact that people don’t expect it’d be a 4x in every control deck speaks volumes about how much things have changed.
Not really? Its very strong of course but still doesn't come close to the advantage all the free counterspells offer and competes more with the 1 mana counters than anything else. Remember, its 2 blue pips in mostly 3 to 5 colour decks where most spells aren't nearly as costly as in casual edh so the payoff is lower.
@@ELDsTimeVaultGames I would strongly disagree. For one thing, fierce guardianship requires 1. You to have your commander on the field, and 2. the spell you want to counter being a noncreature spell. In a format where combos are so prevalent and fast mana is so crucial, mana drain allows you to 1. Disrupt your opponent's combo, no matter what spell it is, and 2. give you enough mana to perform your own combo on the following turn, much sooner than you would be able to otherwise. Even if fierce guardianship is good at protecting your own combo, since many of the combos in CEDH require a decent bit of mana, I believe the swing provided by both the disruption and the ramp that mana drain provides make it the best counterspell in CEDH. Agree to disagree.
@@behemoth9543 The two blue pips is a fair point, but I would counter that the mana base in CEDH is also much better, with fetch lands and shock lands and especially og dual lands, double blue should not be very hard to achieve, even in a 3-5 color deck. I would also say that, yes, the spells aren't as costly in CEDH, so the payoff isn't as big, that also means that getting a small amount of extra mana is a much larger advantage, because your spells are so efficient. Even if you only get, say 3 extra mana, that's still like you got a free mana vault for the turn, and in CEDH that can be huge, getting you to your game winning combo 2 turns early. Agree to disagree.
@@bobwilson679 yea i agree. It doesn't just counter the spell, there's a fair chance it just wins you the game too. Drain a winota, have a one mana ad naus on your turn and mana to back it up.
What was the original reason for banning Mana Drain in Legacy, it isn't the best counter spell. The amount of mana you'd gain from most spells played in legacy isn't even that high.
Best I can recall, most of the justifications came from cost considerations, balancing, and wanting the format to feel different from the newly created Vintage format - see the history of Type 1 and Type 1.5. When created, Vintage was the format to play all the expensive broken cards whereas Legacy was the place to play everything else. At the time, Mana Drain fit into that Bazaar and Workshop pantheon of powerful and expensive cards - today we would evaluate Mana Drain as being significantly weaker but that was 20 years ago.
Hydroblast/Blue Elemental Blast also look incredibly strong in the current meta against powerful red spells like Name-Sticker Goblin, Muxus, Fable of the Mirror Breaker, and Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon.
Absolutely. They see far more play than the bottom of the list too.
Couldn’t agree more, hydro stocks are really high right now
Mana Drain used to be really good, and its power has gone down comparatively since its ban, but i think the idea is that blue/control is already so powerful that adding another powerful 2MV counter is unnecessary.
What do you see it displacing? It would be surprising if a 4x Mana Drain deck were viable. Mind’s Desire showed us the past is not a solid indicator of how strong a card would be today.
@@ELDsTimeVaultGames There's plenty of UW/Jeskai control decks that run straight-up counterspell to deal with the vast array of any type of cards their opponents throw at them. I think with Lorien Revealed in the format, this would be pretty viable. 2-mana draw 2 most of the time.
Whilst i ageee it should be unbanned, i think its probably #5. It's different, trying to place it in the: beat all in strategies pile is a mis-categorization, it's made for a different type of deck, and would probably become a staple in 7-10% of the new meta if legalized.
That'd be awesome if a whole new archtype emerges. As it is now, winning a counter battle with 2 mana spells isn't really looking likely. I suspect The One Ring would be a great followup to draining a large spell.
@@ELDsTimeVaultGames yes, or even things at 5 or 6 that are op. That's what I'm saying it's not a battle counter spell whatsoever. But it counters spells all the same, and with more value next main*
I agree it's safe to unban, but everything after veil is way worse than mana drain
You might be right, but there’s one way to find out - unbanning! That said, you really think Flusterstorm is worse than Mana Drain?
@ELDsTimeVaultGames yeah.
Fluster is a good sideboard card against several decks, but on powerlevel is way below drain. Source: my vintage cube and cedh experience.
I haven't played too much legacy, and besides standstill, there isn't a deck that immediately comes to mind that would use a playset of drains, but I'm sure new decks would emerge and decks like narset echo stompy could change a few slots to accommodate it.
Totally agree. I think the only deck that would play it are big uwx decks with shark thyphon lol
I’d love to sink some mana into a forth Eolingas.
Mana drain is very specific. Better in mono color for sure.
Could be. Basic islands are strong, but adding in Duals is always tempting.
Manadrain would just go in jewel PO
In vintage it’s played more in paper than online.
Edit: all you mentioned is from xerox decks lol not better options
Strong disagree. Jewel is not sitting back with UU+ open. I think the fact that people don’t expect it’d be a 4x in every control deck speaks volumes about how much things have changed.
If it were legal, would mental misstep be on the list?
Of course. There’s a strong case that it is the best counterspell of all time.
Idk if it could ever be better than FOW. It only gets a fraction of spells
They really are cowards. I think memory jar could come back too.
I’d have to test Jar before I have an opinion. Based on how well @Tonyscapone has been doing with artifact shells, it could be incredibly busted.
Maybe in legacy those spells are better than mana drain, but in a format like cedh, I don't think there is a better counterspell than mana drain
Fierce Guardianship would like a word :)
Not really? Its very strong of course but still doesn't come close to the advantage all the free counterspells offer and competes more with the 1 mana counters than anything else. Remember, its 2 blue pips in mostly 3 to 5 colour decks where most spells aren't nearly as costly as in casual edh so the payoff is lower.
@@ELDsTimeVaultGames I would strongly disagree. For one thing, fierce guardianship requires 1. You to have your commander on the field, and 2. the spell you want to counter being a noncreature spell. In a format where combos are so prevalent and fast mana is so crucial, mana drain allows you to 1. Disrupt your opponent's combo, no matter what spell it is, and 2. give you enough mana to perform your own combo on the following turn, much sooner than you would be able to otherwise. Even if fierce guardianship is good at protecting your own combo, since many of the combos in CEDH require a decent bit of mana, I believe the swing provided by both the disruption and the ramp that mana drain provides make it the best counterspell in CEDH. Agree to disagree.
@@behemoth9543 The two blue pips is a fair point, but I would counter that the mana base in CEDH is also much better, with fetch lands and shock lands and especially og dual lands, double blue should not be very hard to achieve, even in a 3-5 color deck. I would also say that, yes, the spells aren't as costly in CEDH, so the payoff isn't as big, that also means that getting a small amount of extra mana is a much larger advantage, because your spells are so efficient. Even if you only get, say 3 extra mana, that's still like you got a free mana vault for the turn, and in CEDH that can be huge, getting you to your game winning combo 2 turns early. Agree to disagree.
@@bobwilson679 yea i agree. It doesn't just counter the spell, there's a fair chance it just wins you the game too. Drain a winota, have a one mana ad naus on your turn and mana to back it up.
What was the original reason for banning Mana Drain in Legacy, it isn't the best counter spell. The amount of mana you'd gain from most spells played in legacy isn't even that high.
Sounds like a good idea for another video!
Best I can recall, most of the justifications came from cost considerations, balancing, and wanting the format to feel different from the newly created Vintage format - see the history of Type 1 and Type 1.5. When created, Vintage was the format to play all the expensive broken cards whereas Legacy was the place to play everything else. At the time, Mana Drain fit into that Bazaar and Workshop pantheon of powerful and expensive cards - today we would evaluate Mana Drain as being significantly weaker but that was 20 years ago.
The best decks in legacy are tempo decks. Manadrain is a tempo monster.
FOW is the most-played card in the format and would give you 5 when you mana drain it.