I think I saw this experiment before on mythbusters the tv show, they concluded that on loose surface (they ran on something like gravel or dry dirt) you should slide but on asphalt you should grip
From an engineering standpoint, the average coefficient of friction generally dictates what slip angle will produce the best results. The lower the overall grip of the track, the more slip angle will be required. Which is why rally / dirt-snow they are quickest sliding... and on asphalt there are a couple degrees of slip angle at the fastest lap times. If you look at the data logs from various race cars/ trucks... this becomes more obvious. Especially if you look at the traction circle on data logs for offroad stadium style racing, the longitudinal braking force that you would usually see is replaced with more lateral g points as you bleed off speed sliding the car into the corner at a higher slip angle due to where maximum grip is achieved at a relatively higher slip angle. Watch dirt oval, and compare the angles to asphalt ovals... I should also add that it is downforce dependent... Low downforce GT cars will have more slip angle than high downforce cars on the same racing surface... ex GT3 vs LMP1, LMP1 drivers slide the cars around less due to aerodynamic downforce adding grip to the tires and as the slip angle increases the downforce decreases (to some degree).
@@DriveFast_FlyHigh The Coefficient doesn't change unless the surface changes. What changes is the peak level of grip at a given angle, which is why on asphalt, where the coefficient of friction is higher than dirt/ ice, the fast way around the track is having a relatively small slip angle compared to dirt. insideracingtechnology.com/Resources/bhvrlatforce.gif
I would like to hear your opinion here, too. My guess would be, as the surface gets more loose, the friction from "scraping" away material with the sides of the tires begin to dominate over the rubber-to-surface "pure" friction coefficient.
Pavement is almost certainly going to be slower going sideways, depending on the types of corners and the tires used. The only time sliding is faster is when the grip threshold of the tire is low, which with decent modern-day tires is pretty much never until you're talking about a tight hairpin and a narrow road.
Touge Time I totally agree with you I would like to see a comparisson on pavement, I would like to see a full grip lap another one sliding and a 3rd one with both of them to determine in which situation is faster to slide.
From recent personal experience and highly unscientific testing, a little bit of sideways is the fastest on a touge style course. There's a sweet spot, where I don't have to turn the wheel in either direction and the car simply steers based on throttle input, and I can carry 5-10 mph more around a given corner compared to staying 100% gripped and forcing the front tires to rotate the car. A bit too fast, and I'm in a lot of trouble and have to immediately cancel all thoughts of going fast and just try to recover it. A bit too slow, and I then have to scrub massive speed to re-grip. But, if I get everything perfect, I just hold the wheel straight and turn using the gas pedal, then give about a quarter to half turn of opposite lock at the end when I'm pointed out of the corner as I floor it to end the slide. I should emphasize that this is not a drift in the traditional sense, I'm not turning left to go right, my tires aren't smoking, I'm still looking out the front window, and from the outside there is no real visible sliding of the rear, the whole car appears to move sideways despite the front wheels being straight. It's what seems to be called a 4 wheel drift among users of this technique, and from my logic and understanding, it splits the cornering load up between the tires more evenly. A car has both ditectional and rotational inertia. Instead of the fronts having to handle 100% of the rotational inertia, swung about a radius centered on the rear axle, and spread out through the corner where you really need to be handling the directional inertia, all of the energy required to rotate the car is exerted on turn in when the front is heavy from trail braking, and from there allowing the back to slide ever so slightly prevents it from exerting a force to cancel that rotation. The car pivots around the midpoint, rather than the rear axle, lessening the amount of mass that has to swing around the corner, and as a result, less total acceleration is required to change the direction of the car. Despite the tires having slightly less ability to exert a force on the car because of a sliding coefficient of friction, the lessening of required force from both decreasing the amount of swung mass and eliminating the force needed to rotate the car makes it faster regardless. This is all working from the perspective of an RX-8, which has 50/50 weight distribution, and an already low moment of inertia. The ideal pivot point is centered between the axles (or technically, imaginary line where said axles would be if not for independent suspension), which is probably why an even slip of both the front and rear is optimal. This is also on slow, tight corners. In general, I wouldn't do over 60 by traditional grip techniques around the corners this has been proven on. I have no idea how it would compare on a 100+mph turn at an open race track. I don't drive at those speeds on narrow mountain roads. Again, all of this isn't scientifically tested, nor proven in any way, simply a moderately researched hypothesis to explain why I experience so much greater speed by using this technique.
thank you, i have been looking for someone to make that argument without relying on initial d bs. i love initial d, but god do the fans (and the haters) poison the "grip vs drift" discourse
All cars on loose surfaces will slide, the difference is only that your torque bias determines the characteristics of the slide. If your AWD and it’s 40/60 you’ll prob oversteer more compared to 60/40 you’ll prob understeer more but “slide” none the less. Same goes with Rear wheel wheel oversteer and front wheel understeer. Rally slides use a lot of weight transferring and then the handbrake. So it doesn’t matter what car, I could slide my old FWD geo prism in this Florida rain just fine lol just gotta know how to do it lol
No, the most grip a tire has is at a slip angle greater than zero.....therefore, going fast on tarmac requires at minimum the ability to perform low angle drifting at the limit. you lost that bet, and please give me a summary of your racing resume, i'm sure its impressive.
drtone i agree with what you said completely. But i also think that there are many circumstances where pure grip run can be faster than sliding. It all depends on car, track and most important grip and traction that you can produce with that tyres on that surface. Example: low power fwd car, with good tyres on a nascar track.
Excellent and informative! Please repeat the experiment on gravel and tarmac in each of the four seasons we have here in New England. That would be cool to see.
In rallying you see them sliding around all the time. If that's the way the professionals do it, than that's the fastest way. Now pavement's a different story. Go watch Randy Pobst's racing line and you'll know what I'm talking about
@@neomeg2232 that for sharp hairpin turns where a hand break turn is the fastest way to rotate around the corner. It doesn't depend on the car since all cars use rubber tires
@@joeschmo5988 Still doesn't make a difference. FWD hand break turn. RWD hand break turn or gas it just to rotate. If you look at snow rally stages, you see them in similar fashion to this video. You don't purposely slide the tires on a high grip surface like pavement. It creates more friction and therefore slows the car. In low grip surfaces like gravel and snow it is easier to carry momentum through sliding in stead of trying to break and accelerate in the conventional way. Again, watch the Motortrend video
hey. i don't wanna add anything to the results of your experiments, just wanna say that i'm really happy your channel exists. my simrig wheel is broken atm and i can't afford a new one, which is why i'm very grateful i can watch first person views and other cool driving experiments on youtube at least. so just keep the videos coming :) especially if you wanna add cockpit views
amazing video! did NOT expect that big of a difference. would definitely like to see more tests on dirt/asphalt with different drive layouts as well. maybe get somebody outside the car to time if possible too! keep up these awesome videos
The real difference comes from static vs dynamic friction. (Tires rolling vs rolling and sliding). On pavement, static friction is much greater than dynamic friction (can be more than 20%), but on gravel, snow, etc, the difference between static and dynamic friction can easily be overcome by “carving” and using the momentum of the rear of the vehicle to “point it where you want it.” Great video!
there is more to the physics of it gravel acts more like a liquid for the sake of driving then a solid so your no linger measuring the grip of tire vs asphalt your more looking into the propulsion of a rolling tire on water if you do that the difference between slipping the tire vs going as fast as "grip" permits is much much more noticeable
Dynamic or kinetic friction is roughly 80% of static friction (shockingly) on almost all surfaces! This makes static friction 25% more than kinetic on those same surfaces. Using the 'momentum' of the rear to point the car where you want to go sounds very intuitive and gives me no doubt that you would 'carve' a wicked turn if given the opportunity but, it is the abundance of power (and slight oversteer) that makes up for the lack of friction, not the actual digging into the turn.
Definitely the next test is on tarmac. It's the other extreme for surface type. We've seen how times differ on very slippery, now let's see very grippy. My hypothesis is that it will be slower to slide on tarmac. You'll need to swap out the tires though, since you used snow tires here, use tarmac tyres there. May as well try the same car with a similar distance.
I feel due to conditions, you can't be aggressive without sliding. Also if you are avoiding the slide it makes the car understeer. So getting the car pointed in limited grip situations is the king! Good video
There's an old article in Car and Driver where Patrick Bedard visits Stig Blomqvist to learn how to slide Saabs around various surfaces in the 1980s. Stig notes it's not necessary to slide on pavement (although he still left foot brakes quite hard) but that it is on loose surfaces. For what it's worth Bedard explains the use of left foot braking as balancing the engine and braking power to the front wheels to simulate a free rolling wheel, thus increasing its cornering grip - while the rear wheels, being unpowered only receive braking, and thus lose some of their cornering grip. Stig had more to add, but I don't remember it all unfortunately.
If u seen one of his older videos he states that slower corners are faster sideways basically. He did that on gravel. Good video. When I go out I use sliding on sharp and/or slow corners. Give it a try if u can. It's all about when and where
Learn from the best...pro WRC drivers do both, depending on surface. Watch special stages on tarmac and ones on gravel/snow! Grip on one, slide on the other! Simples :P
Ian Holmquist I’m sure he is... that’s why He is drifting on snow 👍😊 Just would love to see how it works out on tarmac so that people could understand the difference... and the need for different approach.
Great that you added to this debate. I think there's already been enough of the "Drift vs grip" on pavement. So I'd say test it on gravel possibly with different drivetrains; FWD, RWD. That would be interesting to see.
I found that this kind of sporty driving with my Forester XT helped to develop the reflexes necessary to pull the car back into control during an emergency maneuver on glare iced roads when the circumstances are not by your choice
Great video! I just recently subscribed and have really enjoyed the quality of videos and the topics! a video that I think everyone would benefit from is shifting, how to properly rev match, and different ways to shift etc.
nice one! this is the comparison video we all waiting for! looking forward for more test on mud, gravel, and pavement too and, laps in batch 2 is lots more fun (p.s. if i live nearby i would love to help operating the stopwatch too)
@Mathieu Morin The most popular rallies are on loose surfaces. However, the point of stage rally is testing driver's and their vehicle's abilities across a variety of stages and conditions, including paved roads. Just look at the current WRC schedule and you'll see 5 tarmac or mixed stages (Monte Carlo, Tour de Corse, Germany, GB, and Spain).
Great video guys I believe if you're in a loose surface like snow ice and gravel then sliding is best but in tarmac grip is best circuit racing and rally racing have 2 completely different styles
I would say it depends on the corner, surface and racing line. That said I've heard before that the fastest times in drag racing are when the tires are spinning just a tiny bit. Apparently there is a little traction to be had beyond a tires limit, but it is a tiny amount and easily exceeded since the tire is already beyond it's limit. I expect there are differences in lateral and longitudinal traction. A grip style will use more lateral traction as that is the direction that the tire is being pushed in. A drift style, when done for speed not show, exceeds a tires lateral grip in exchange for getting the car pointed down the straight sooner on corner exit and this being able to use it's longitudinal traction. I probably don't know what I'm talking about, but it sounds reasonable.
It's called slip ratio. Look up Gary McCoy, South African gp. Tires and chassis have changed, so the style faded, but electronics systems today concentrate on that perfect amount of slip. Spot on with the drag cars. 👍 Drifting american style is horrendously slow and nukes the tires, but Japanese style is the fastest way down the touge.
@@csechrist1 yep, it applies with braking, accelerating, turning, everything. Wet or dry. It's only about 10% if I remember right, and it varies with different carcass hardnesses and compounds. But the better the surface, the smaller that sweet spot gets. The best of the best struggle to race at those levels, way beyond a mortal like me lol
For road users with other people on the road, use the first option. For fun and speed where you won't hurt anyone, the second :) I'm in the UK and 90% of the crashes I see are in the one week of snow we get ever couple of years. Finally, question. When you teach, how strict are you on hand position and how you move the wheel? I did a rally day a while back and it messed with my intuitive sense of how it should work because they focused on some weird kata type training. Anyway, still love the vids, if I'm every on that continent be sure I'm visiting you straight after customs :)
I'd be curious to see y'all do this test with RWD & FWD to see if the results are consistent with different drivetrain. Great job on this testing though
Come open a school in Canada!!! Some of us can't cross the border and im tripping over your videos guys you tought me sooo much 😭 huggeee thank you ! 🔥💯
I’m definitely convinced about loose and slippery surfaces. I’ve always been taught that sliding is slower on high grip surfaces like pavement, though. I’d love to see a similar comparison there.
If I had to guess, the test where you didn't slide was so much slower because you were actively trying not to slide. Driving on snow is naturally gonna be really slidey, so trying to avoid that is gonna cost some time. On a less loose surface they would probably be around even and on pavement the car would naturally want to stay straight so trying to make it slide will eat time there
I don't think anyone will argue against sliding being faster in low grip conditions. But what about in a tarmac rally? In tarmac rallies and hillclimbs, some drivers slide around, some don't and both seem to work. Would be interesting to find out what's faster, and by how much
Tyre management will affect how hard to work a tyre...more slip = more heat & wear. WRC will often refer about how hard to push (slip) V's tyre life. Tyre design, tread & construction, influences the effective optimal slip angle. Other thoughts... F1 used 7% (?) slip in traction control era for maximum drive (not slip angle) and no doubt tyre temperature management. Well established that braking on gravel surfaces is aided by skidding, degraded on asphalt. Suspect a parallel to slip angles. Very hard to find maximum grip if you don't go past it (7%?). Excessive slip and late slip forces power /acceleration delay. Aero devices require correct air flow and are engineered to trade drag for downforce. Approach angle is paramount to performance. More steering angle doesn't mean more turn, same for oversteer. Drifting (drifter's?) Don't hold lap records. More grip, Less slip.
As you said, repeat on gravel and pavement. I feel like different driving styles suit different surfacesi suspect staying tight and stuck will be faster on pavement.
and with pavement i mean like rally type of pavement obviously not like a super-wide racetrack, more like a tight course with lots of hairpins and shit, somewhere where it's not obvious which style could be faster.
I am up for sliding. When you go sideways you keep more speed so it is faster. The surface does not matter at all.. Its just a mutiplier so if you got the slides right it will always be faster.. About drive trains.. FWD will most likely go for understeer so you ain't going anywhere.. But RWD and especially AWD will carry alot more speed in the corners.. Awesome content again, nice and simple!
Another factor of a loose surface is that it interacts with the sides of the tyres too when you go sideways, and not just the contact patch at the bottom. Also, the tyres can dig down into soft loose surfaces, or ride on top of pebbles etc. that are spread over a hard surface. Each is different.
Momentum is key in car racing the smoother you can make your turns and hold your speed the better your time. On loose surfaces the tire spinning actually helps shove dirt snow and gravel under the tires helping you get grip. On pavement its crucial you maintain the rubber on the road at all times. Even getting air on a jump detracts from time you could be accelerating.
On pavement and on gravel will be good purely to shut people up. I know from my own testing sliding is faster on certain corners etc regardless of surface, especially entry in, but without proof everyone will still say it's not, so love these tests!
I think sliding on loose surfaces is faster. But on pavement, I don't think so. I would be interested to see the same test on pavement (and then maybe on gravel, but on gravel result will most likely be the same as in this test). Great video again! It's been a month or two since I watched the last one. :D
I'm always surprised by how much speed gets scrubbed off when getting sideways on gravel, but straight line braking at the same speed can feel kind of sketchy. When I am trying to get a little sideways (not racing...), I always enter the corner too slow to do it convincingly. It'd be fun to see the same test on gravel. (Mythbusters tried it, but I wasn't convinced. They were taking it too slow, not driving like a rallyist... It was the kind of "drifting" you'd expect from a 16 year old driving mom's civic.)
It might feel loose or wet on a gravel road, but if you can scuff the surface with your shoe and it's dryer and/or harder packed just under the surface, sliding the car will give you that much more grip. Watch a rally car go around a corner, then look at the tracks left behind compared to the normal road... They'll often be dryer, harder, rockier, than the top surface. You make more grip for yourself by driving harder and getting sideways. The same effect can be a bad thing though, like in this test where the tires push the snow away and you get down to the ice (not good) and that effect doesn't happen at all on hard flat surfaces like glare ice or pavement.
Here in AZ we have a lot of funky loose material (it's nearly everything really) and I long dealt with the straight line braking feels hairy in my B13 Sentra. No matter what I did she always wanted to wander if I was being at all aggressive. The cure? Rear Aero. One day I threw on a spoiler I had sitting in my misc parts pile just for something to do. HUGE change at speed. Which got me thinking that the weight balance of the vehicle was the real issue. I moved more weight to the rear and saw a big improvement in consistency for high speed turns/slides on loose stuff and much less of that swimming feeling coming into heavy braking. So, for more confident/consistent aggressive turns/slides and hotter entry try more real weight and see if that helps. The aero is just fake rear weight btw if that wasn't obvious.
Like others already mentioned: It would be interesting to see if the differences where bigger/smaller with FWD or RWD cars. For now i'm fine with tests on snow :D
I would like to see dry pavement. I wonder if there is a defined limit where they are the same. If dry pavement is faster without sliding, then try wet pavement. Then keep narrowing it down to a specific coefficient of friction where they are equal. Maybe old all-seasons on wet pavement or something.
I would like to echo a few other comments I’ve seen so far. I’d like to see the difference in performance between the various drive types (AWD/4wd, FWD, and RWD) in this test and on other types of loose surfaces. I think any enthusiast knows, and it’s been clearly demonstrated by others, that not sliding on pavement is faster. If you want to prove that, I’ll gladly be entertained for an additional episode. 👍
In rallying you often see the cars getting some air, jumping both high and far. Would be interesting to get your thoughts on that, possibly a couple of demonstrations too. Does of course not have to be the extreme you see in those youtube compilations :-)
it's all depends on grip. The goal is to gain as much average speed as you can. So for good grip surface where you can brake and accelerate faster the best tactics is to stay steady and use slow entrance\fast exit. And for loosy surface the best way is to keep in corner as much speed as you can by drifting it
I consider the second try to be pretty tame still, when I see people think sliding is faster, its in a much more "for the fans" way where you're full lock sideways everywhere, on the locks, etc. In your attempt you were still concentrating more on having forward motion, like the pros do :)
If sliding was faster, wrc drivers would slide everywhere, if straight and steady wrc drivers would do that.. it depends entirelly on the corner conditions and environment.. both have their benefits
Same thing on gravel in the same spot would be cool to see. Would give us a bit of an understanding about the difference in traction as well - gravel tires on gravel vs snow tires on snow. Is there a difference and how much, how big is the difference between sliding and gripping, etc.
Dirt track racing (sprint cars, a-mods, ect) definitely sees a benefit for going around corners sideways. The leaders always are sideways around corners, though I suppose the argument can be made that the cars are set up specifically to come out around the corners and the track is designed with that in mind as well. But on a loose surface, it seems like putting your power with an angle towards the center of the corner would help keep you on course, even when you are on the edge of traction. You can't go as fast period on that surface due to how much less traction you have. Tarmac I would imagine wouldn't see as much (or any) time benefit since the traction is so much better.
I think it depends on mainly on the surface (dry gravel will be faster with no sliding). Surely on snow fighting to not slide will affect the time. In addition in rally there are 2 more differences: first you do not do laps but stage, so not all corners are same. Second difference is in rally you do not know that perfectly every corner, so you need to be more careful with cutting and sliding.
would love to see this on pavement with the drift school compared to traditional racing line. Can't wait to enroll in repeat offender program, days 3 - 5, cheers!
When driveing on snow its faster to go sideways because the tires will dig in moore to the road. The tyres also push much moore effective the snow trhough the grooves when going sideways = moore grip. When you drive on snow not slideing at all youre not on the limit because of what i told above because you have less grip just driveing on the loose surface. It is the same when you brake with abs on snow - the abs doesnt allow the tyre to dig in to the road surface, it will only use the tyre on the loose surface = less grip. Your car will stop quicker on snow without abs because the tyre will dig in to the road. I hope you understand and this is the same on all drive types fwd rwd awd. Greatings from Finland :)
On a loose/low grip surface, sliding helps push you in towards the turn and spinning the wheel helps dig down to harder surface with more grip. There are exceptions, but this is the general rule. On a hard/good grip surface this behavior will make you "float" and lose grip.
FF - in snow FR - in snow FA - on track/asphalt FF - on track/asphalt FR - on track/asphalt This gives a comparison between common drive types, in the two extremes of surface conditions. That way if there is a pattern of driving style on the specific surfaces there can be an assumption of scaling on a spectrum. Ex: Solid surface ---------- Loose surface v v v v Grip driving ---------------- Slide driving
Grip on a racetrack Drift gravel and snow, Where it gets interesting is on wet damp roads or unpredictable surfaces, whenever the limit of grip is unclear so is the grip/drift argument
I've been rally racing for over a year now, racing in 100 Acre Wood and Show Me Rally here in Missouri. Watching my footage and being aware of how I'm driving, I realize that the second the car starts to slide I back off my throttle. I lose a lot of time trying to keep the car straight and I think my biggest area requiring improvement is realizing that, I am indeed in a built, caged rally car. The car is designed to slide. It has the power and the traction to pull out of a slide. I just struggle getting past that mental roadblock. We need more snow here in St Louis so I can practice in a more controlled mall parking lot, far fewer trees.
Not saying this is the case for you BUT: That kind of lifting is usually just a symptom, the actual problem is often with the eyes... If the car gets sideways and you're looking way ahead optimistically down the road, you'll probably go hard on the gas. If it gets sideways and you're looking too close in front of the car, at the edge of the road, or at an object... You'll lift. Everyone does, it's natural. We go reactive instead of proactive. Danger close. Fight or flight mode. If you look at something, you'll either crash into it or panic steer away and who knows where you'll end up. Your brain needs that good reference point way ahead for your sense of balance as well. Just like if you're walking a tightrope and look in front of your feet, you fall over, but if you look way ahead it's easy. Same thing on a bicycle, look just in front of your tire then way ahead and you'll feel the difference. The bike goes from feeling wobbly to super stable. Skis or snowboard, same thing, even just walking. Your brain calibrates differently looking far ahead where you want to go. It's really hard in a rally car because there's so much to look at, it's very difficult to stay on target. Watch this for example and try to keep your eyes down the road: ruclips.net/video/tBGzCdG3fhQ/видео.html It looks insane until you get your eyes right and then it starts to make sense.
I absolutely love how he forgot the first lap time, and how he was oversteering with one hand on the wheel in order to stop his own stop watch. I want to drink beer with this guy.
I’d love to see the same comparo on Tarmac. I loved watching Ken Block on the Red Bull GRC drift around the track and I would swear his “showy” racing style was actually slower than cleanly cutting corners.
I'd say it's actually safer, at least with awd and fwd. As long as you get past the urge to brake and learn to get yourself out of trouble with the throttle.
Always my thought in snow, since i have a FWD car for the winter i always put good snow tires on front and whatevers on the rear, so my tendency is to oversteer, and i can correct it with throttle immediately.
@@clayton8or exactly. You'll probably lose just a little braking performance with regulars on the back. Small sacrifice I think. I had a set of blizzaks one winter. They were amazing, but I didn't take them off quick enough and they fell apart when it warmed up. Kinda pricey, so now I just tape the old hand brake button down. Lol.
Actually, the 7th gen civic's brake bias is so that with blizzaks in the front and mildly worn all seasons in the rear, on all surfaces the front locks before the rear, except in snow where it is almost simultaneous.
@@clayton8or nice. I had the blizzaks on an eg coupe. I should try that sometime. I had all seasons once with the bald ones on back and it was fun. Front still wanted to push though. I could only imagine with snows on the front.
I'd love to see how fwd or rwd change this. I expect the same result (sliding better than not) but those platforms probably will fare even worse when asked to drive tamely at speed on snow.
I'd like to see this on both snow and gravel, but with more of a how much sideways. You see vids from ACP that he pretty much uses sliding sidways to slow for a corner. I'd like to see that vs using the brakes to get the car slowed down for a corner and how sideways each method gets you through the corner.
My intuition is that on a slippery/loose surface drifting is faster simply because the car can develop more cornering force/ direction change using acceleration with the drive tires pointed in the direction of the turn. All vehicles under power will shift weight off the front wheels and regardless of drivetrain type all vehicles steer with the same tires.
My argument would be.. If you get the car sideways pointing in the direction you want to go, you now have all four tires pulling you in that direction. Holding a steady line, there are only the front two tires guiding the car along. That being said, snow is a different beast to drive on compared to pavement (tarmac).
Old school drifters for Japan always said drifting into a corner allows you to enter the corner at a faster speed. Useful in situations where you couldn't brake without being over taken. It wasn't until later, people said it was faster way around corners.
Can you guys test this in dirt and mud? I have had the discussion a few times with people I rallycross with, and they think I am nusts that sliding the rear out a littlewhen done properly can help you go faster. I think that it help the car rotate and get around the corner better when its done moderately, but thats just me.
I think it's a technique called "skid angle". It's basically a very shallow drift that helps to point the front of the car more into the corner to help turning. I'm no expert tho
Yeah, i didnt know the name of the technique, but i originally learned it for motocycles from my dad who was a professional flat track motorcycle racer when he was younger. But I have ran enough times to know that it helps me be faster, and help fight the understeer in some of the vehicles i use.
I remember when Mythbusters did this. They concluded that drifting on dirt was slower. I was like your wrong! You guy's don't know how to rally! They were the drivers instead of featuring a professional to run the track.. I was pretty upset how they went about it. I believe firmly that the combination of subtle drifts and powersliding on dirt and snow when needed will result in faster times, but not on tarmac. Getting sideways digs the walls of your tires a little into the dirt and snow. Increasing your grip around a corner. In my opinion, it can set your car up earlier for straights as well. There's more factors, but I don't feel like writing a short story here in the comments. By the way... I've always wanted to go to your school since I discovered it's existence at 17, but I'm too poor. Even 10 years later.
Guys think of an infinite 15 degree bend to the left that has a loose gravel or snow surface. If you dont slide at all the front wheels have little to no traction to turn the car to the corner so you lose time.. but if you slide the rear a little you can use the power of all 4 wheels to the direction where you want to go and the tires are on a better angle so you can steer better. Now using this princible think about any corner on the rally course.. first you break on the outside to slow down, then you want to find a slide angle that allows the car to point to the direction you want to go as soon as possible and use all the power of your car. If it’s a short corner the sliding part is just a minimal flick and while on the bend the car is already using all possible power out of the corner. If you slide and the energy is not going down the straight you lose time. In a long bend you start the slide earlier but still the only idea is to be pointing down the road as soon as possible. Look at any rally video now and you’ll get it in a second. And also note that they are not sliding an inch longer than they have to or just sliding for the sake of sliding or to be flashy.
A Little bit of slide is good on a road as well but on dirt or snow sliding seems faster. Not sure about ice or wet tarmac, I think you shouldn't slide. On snow or dirt spinning the tires creates more grip, possibly is the effect similar to rowing on water,
Test on Gravel , Soft dirt with a hard surface underneath and then just hard compacted dirt and don't dumb it down give reasons for why certain surfaces like more or less sliding and more or less oversteer and why going sideways will slow the car down faster than actual braking more or less on certain surfaces. When wheel spin is acceptable to dig ruts through a soft surface to get to the hard surface underneath. stuff like that , ya know actual useful information.
although he was allowed to do anything, I was expecting it to go a little more "sideways". It didn't seem to require a lot of countersteer for all the sliding (except for the final ending turn). I think a track with more tight turns and hairpins might give a more interesting result.
powering through a snow covered track or digging through the gravel and rocks to get as much traction as you can...you gotta go both feet down on the floor exiting a turn to carry as much kinetic energy to stay on your line, I learned to drive this way running from the cops trying to give me tickets for racing, and never got caught rolled them into the ditch because learning to earhart a driver running in a sraight line is no way like trying to catch a light weight car setup for skinning down gravel roads and staying out of the ditch or bashing a tree....Thats how I learned to drive. Now driving a GT500 is a big A$$ handful if you want to go fast on tight roads..Kevino
even in rwd if you are on a slippery surface i would say it's faster to slide. explaining why i think so: if you drive to the limits of the tiers without sliding you might get over/understeer at a point which is not ideal at all, with that in the back of your head you naturally will leave some safety margin. if you slide however you are in control of under/oversteer and will be more confident as the car already is sliding it's not something that can suddenly occurs and you will naturally try to go for the fastest line with less of a safety margin as how it slides most likely will not change if you are used to the car and are in control.
![Clave Especial x Fuerza Regida - No Pasa Nada [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3u2jaju71IQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I think I saw this experiment before on mythbusters the tv show, they concluded that on loose surface (they ran on something like gravel or dry dirt) you should slide but on asphalt you should grip
Dariune if you saw in on mythbusters than it must be true
you're right
Not a mythbusters fan, nor a physics major, but I think common sense would support that hypothesis.
@@unitram he's right. This time mythbusters win.
dzumadrozd sure Lewis Hamilton, sure.
From an engineering standpoint, the average coefficient of friction generally dictates what slip angle will produce the best results. The lower the overall grip of the track, the more slip angle will be required. Which is why rally / dirt-snow they are quickest sliding... and on asphalt there are a couple degrees of slip angle at the fastest lap times.
If you look at the data logs from various race cars/ trucks... this becomes more obvious. Especially if you look at the traction circle on data logs for offroad stadium style racing, the longitudinal braking force that you would usually see is replaced with more lateral g points as you bleed off speed sliding the car into the corner at a higher slip angle due to where maximum grip is achieved at a relatively higher slip angle. Watch dirt oval, and compare the angles to asphalt ovals... I should also add that it is downforce dependent... Low downforce GT cars will have more slip angle than high downforce cars on the same racing surface... ex GT3 vs LMP1, LMP1 drivers slide the cars around less due to aerodynamic downforce adding grip to the tires and as the slip angle increases the downforce decreases (to some degree).
Without getting too complicated, could you explain why the coefficient of friction is greater with a high slip angle on a loose surface?
@@DriveFast_FlyHigh The Coefficient doesn't change unless the surface changes. What changes is the peak level of grip at a given angle, which is why on asphalt, where the coefficient of friction is higher than dirt/ ice, the fast way around the track is having a relatively small slip angle compared to dirt. insideracingtechnology.com/Resources/bhvrlatforce.gif
I would like to hear your opinion here, too.
My guess would be, as the surface gets more loose, the friction from "scraping" away material with the sides of the tires begin to dominate over the rubber-to-surface "pure" friction coefficient.
That's only because the earth is flat though? ...but seriously, thank you for the explanation that is great!
@@DriveFast_FlyHigh Force of kinetic friction changes due to multiple reasons.
Would like to see pavement and maybe split screen comparison. Sweet vid
Maybe add in section times to show where grip or drifting is quicker.
Pavement is almost certainly going to be slower going sideways, depending on the types of corners and the tires used. The only time sliding is faster is when the grip threshold of the tire is low, which with decent modern-day tires is pretty much never until you're talking about a tight hairpin and a narrow road.
I don't think split screen would work, he can't operate 2 controllers without another 2 hands
@@adamdrumonde1664 not always. 4 wheel slide can be pretty fast. Zero counter steer
Touge Time I totally agree with you I would like to see a comparisson on pavement, I would like to see a full grip lap another one sliding and a 3rd one with both of them to determine in which situation is faster to slide.
From recent personal experience and highly unscientific testing, a little bit of sideways is the fastest on a touge style course. There's a sweet spot, where I don't have to turn the wheel in either direction and the car simply steers based on throttle input, and I can carry 5-10 mph more around a given corner compared to staying 100% gripped and forcing the front tires to rotate the car. A bit too fast, and I'm in a lot of trouble and have to immediately cancel all thoughts of going fast and just try to recover it. A bit too slow, and I then have to scrub massive speed to re-grip. But, if I get everything perfect, I just hold the wheel straight and turn using the gas pedal, then give about a quarter to half turn of opposite lock at the end when I'm pointed out of the corner as I floor it to end the slide. I should emphasize that this is not a drift in the traditional sense, I'm not turning left to go right, my tires aren't smoking, I'm still looking out the front window, and from the outside there is no real visible sliding of the rear, the whole car appears to move sideways despite the front wheels being straight.
It's what seems to be called a 4 wheel drift among users of this technique, and from my logic and understanding, it splits the cornering load up between the tires more evenly. A car has both ditectional and rotational inertia. Instead of the fronts having to handle 100% of the rotational inertia, swung about a radius centered on the rear axle, and spread out through the corner where you really need to be handling the directional inertia, all of the energy required to rotate the car is exerted on turn in when the front is heavy from trail braking, and from there allowing the back to slide ever so slightly prevents it from exerting a force to cancel that rotation. The car pivots around the midpoint, rather than the rear axle, lessening the amount of mass that has to swing around the corner, and as a result, less total acceleration is required to change the direction of the car. Despite the tires having slightly less ability to exert a force on the car because of a sliding coefficient of friction, the lessening of required force from both decreasing the amount of swung mass and eliminating the force needed to rotate the car makes it faster regardless.
This is all working from the perspective of an RX-8, which has 50/50 weight distribution, and an already low moment of inertia. The ideal pivot point is centered between the axles (or technically, imaginary line where said axles would be if not for independent suspension), which is probably why an even slip of both the front and rear is optimal. This is also on slow, tight corners. In general, I wouldn't do over 60 by traditional grip techniques around the corners this has been proven on. I have no idea how it would compare on a 100+mph turn at an open race track. I don't drive at those speeds on narrow mountain roads. Again, all of this isn't scientifically tested, nor proven in any way, simply a moderately researched hypothesis to explain why I experience so much greater speed by using this technique.
thank you, i have been looking for someone to make that argument without relying on initial d bs. i love initial d, but god do the fans (and the haters) poison the "grip vs drift" discourse
I would love to see this in a FWD car.
As always, good video. Keep it up!
So FWD cars drive in reverse so they can slide.
@@EdgarsLS I have watched many rally and hillclimb videos of Clios and Peugeots sliding at curves and corners
All cars on loose surfaces will slide, the difference is only that your torque bias determines the characteristics of the slide. If your AWD and it’s 40/60 you’ll prob oversteer more compared to 60/40 you’ll prob understeer more but “slide” none the less. Same goes with Rear wheel wheel oversteer and front wheel understeer. Rally slides use a lot of weight transferring and then the handbrake. So it doesn’t matter what car, I could slide my old FWD geo prism in this Florida rain just fine lol just gotta know how to do it lol
Also they have a sick video on left foot braking you should watch that for more info
no one cares about fwd cars. go back to your school run
I bet grip would be faster on pavement 100%. Looks like loose surfaces are faster when going sideways...
Thanks for all the interesting content!
Ancient Apparition i think it would heavily depend on the tightness of the track and car layout.
No, the most grip a tire has is at a slip angle greater than zero.....therefore, going fast on tarmac requires at minimum the ability to perform low angle drifting at the limit. you lost that bet, and please give me a summary of your racing resume, i'm sure its impressive.
@@drtone absolutely right. I wish they emphasized that in the video.
drtone i agree with what you said completely. But i also think that there are many circumstances where pure grip run can be faster than sliding. It all depends on car, track and most important grip and traction that you can produce with that tyres on that surface. Example: low power fwd car, with good tyres on a nascar track.
@@unitram what's pure grip? It can be only between two gears. Otherwise there's always some slide.
Excellent and informative! Please repeat the experiment on gravel and tarmac in each of the four seasons we have here in New England. That would be cool to see.
In rallying you see them sliding around all the time. If that's the way the professionals do it, than that's the fastest way. Now pavement's a different story. Go watch Randy Pobst's racing line and you'll know what I'm talking about
MotorTrend btw
Depends on the car, not the surface. Current rally cars slide on pavement too.
@@neomeg2232 that for sharp hairpin turns where a hand break turn is the fastest way to rotate around the corner. It doesn't depend on the car since all cars use rubber tires
Harding Family what about fwd or rwd? Quite a big difference there
@@joeschmo5988 Still doesn't make a difference. FWD hand break turn. RWD hand break turn or gas it just to rotate. If you look at snow rally stages, you see them in similar fashion to this video. You don't purposely slide the tires on a high grip surface like pavement. It creates more friction and therefore slows the car. In low grip surfaces like gravel and snow it is easier to carry momentum through sliding in stead of trying to break and accelerate in the conventional way. Again, watch the Motortrend video
Thanks for the great content! Always a pleasure to watch and learn from you guys!
Love from South Africa.
hey. i don't wanna add anything to the results of your experiments, just wanna say that i'm really happy your channel exists. my simrig wheel is broken atm and i can't afford a new one, which is why i'm very grateful i can watch first person views and other cool driving experiments on youtube at least. so just keep the videos coming :) especially if you wanna add cockpit views
amazing video! did NOT expect that big of a difference. would definitely like to see more tests on dirt/asphalt with different drive layouts as well. maybe get somebody outside the car to time if possible too! keep up these awesome videos
The real difference comes from static vs dynamic friction. (Tires rolling vs rolling and sliding). On pavement, static friction is much greater than dynamic friction (can be more than 20%), but on gravel, snow, etc, the difference between static and dynamic friction can easily be overcome by “carving” and using the momentum of the rear of the vehicle to “point it where you want it.” Great video!
there is more to the physics of it gravel acts more like a liquid for the sake of driving then a solid so your no linger measuring the grip of tire vs asphalt your more looking into the propulsion of a rolling tire on water if you do that the difference between slipping the tire vs going as fast as "grip" permits is much much more noticeable
Dynamic or kinetic friction is roughly 80% of static friction (shockingly) on almost all surfaces! This makes static friction 25% more than kinetic on those same surfaces.
Using the 'momentum' of the rear to point the car where you want to go sounds very intuitive and gives me no doubt that you would 'carve' a wicked turn if given the opportunity but, it is the abundance of power (and slight oversteer) that makes up for the lack of friction, not the actual digging into the turn.
Definitely the next test is on tarmac. It's the other extreme for surface type. We've seen how times differ on very slippery, now let's see very grippy. My hypothesis is that it will be slower to slide on tarmac. You'll need to swap out the tires though, since you used snow tires here, use tarmac tyres there. May as well try the same car with a similar distance.
Psymøn there’s no way that cars gonna slide on dry pavement without something breaking, he would need something high power RWD
Nice one,really like how you guys teach and give in this videos. What about gravel and different traction types (FWD and RWD) next time?
I feel due to conditions, you can't be aggressive without sliding. Also if you are avoiding the slide it makes the car understeer. So getting the car pointed in limited grip situations is the king! Good video
There's an old article in Car and Driver where Patrick Bedard visits Stig Blomqvist to learn how to slide Saabs around various surfaces in the 1980s. Stig notes it's not necessary to slide on pavement (although he still left foot brakes quite hard) but that it is on loose surfaces.
For what it's worth Bedard explains the use of left foot braking as balancing the engine and braking power to the front wheels to simulate a free rolling wheel, thus increasing its cornering grip - while the rear wheels, being unpowered only receive braking, and thus lose some of their cornering grip. Stig had more to add, but I don't remember it all unfortunately.
If u seen one of his older videos he states that slower corners are faster sideways basically. He did that on gravel. Good video. When I go out I use sliding on sharp and/or slow corners. Give it a try if u can. It's all about when and where
Learn from the best...pro WRC drivers do both, depending on surface. Watch special stages on tarmac and ones on gravel/snow! Grip on one, slide on the other! Simples :P
Wyatt is a pro rally driver
Ian Holmquist I’m sure he is... that’s why He is drifting on snow 👍😊 Just would love to see how it works out on tarmac so that people could understand the difference... and the need for different approach.
would love to see this test done with a front wheel drive platform
Definitely would like to see a gravel video in the springtime! This is awesome love you guys!
Real good stuff, as always, Wyatt. Keep up the good work and cheers from Hungary. :)
Great that you added to this debate. I think there's already been enough of the "Drift vs grip" on pavement. So I'd say test it on gravel possibly with different drivetrains; FWD, RWD. That would be interesting to see.
I'm so glad I found this channel
I found that this kind of sporty driving with my Forester XT helped to develop the reflexes necessary to pull the car back into control during an emergency maneuver on glare iced roads when the circumstances are not by your choice
Great video! I just recently subscribed and have really enjoyed the quality of videos and the topics! a video that I think everyone would benefit from is shifting, how to properly rev match, and different ways to shift etc.
nice one! this is the comparison video we all waiting for!
looking forward for more test on mud, gravel, and pavement too
and, laps in batch 2 is lots more fun
(p.s. if i live nearby i would love to help operating the stopwatch too)
I think this experiment would be useful if done on asphalt, because on snow the grip is so low that you have to go far slower in order not to skid.
Counter to that is, generally going to cover more ground with some slip.
@Mathieu Morin The most popular rallies are on loose surfaces. However, the point of stage rally is testing driver's and their vehicle's abilities across a variety of stages and conditions, including paved roads. Just look at the current WRC schedule and you'll see 5 tarmac or mixed stages (Monte Carlo, Tour de Corse, Germany, GB, and Spain).
Sliding is funner and that's the important thing
I got 2 things to say one you did a great job keeping grip and you drifted super good
Great video guys I believe if you're in a loose surface like snow ice and gravel then sliding is best but in tarmac grip is best circuit racing and rally racing have 2 completely different styles
I would say it depends on the corner, surface and racing line. That said I've heard before that the fastest times in drag racing are when the tires are spinning just a tiny bit. Apparently there is a little traction to be had beyond a tires limit, but it is a tiny amount and easily exceeded since the tire is already beyond it's limit.
I expect there are differences in lateral and longitudinal traction. A grip style will use more lateral traction as that is the direction that the tire is being pushed in. A drift style, when done for speed not show, exceeds a tires lateral grip in exchange for getting the car pointed down the straight sooner on corner exit and this being able to use it's longitudinal traction.
I probably don't know what I'm talking about, but it sounds reasonable.
Your name is perfect for this comment
It's called slip ratio. Look up Gary McCoy, South African gp. Tires and chassis have changed, so the style faded, but electronics systems today concentrate on that perfect amount of slip. Spot on with the drag cars. 👍 Drifting american style is horrendously slow and nukes the tires, but Japanese style is the fastest way down the touge.
That slip ratio also applies to braking, on dry pavement at least, and why most abs systems get in the way of a driver who really knows their car.
@@csechrist1 yep, it applies with braking, accelerating, turning, everything. Wet or dry. It's only about 10% if I remember right, and it varies with different carcass hardnesses and compounds. But the better the surface, the smaller that sweet spot gets. The best of the best struggle to race at those levels, way beyond a mortal like me lol
For road users with other people on the road, use the first option. For fun and speed where you won't hurt anyone, the second :)
I'm in the UK and 90% of the crashes I see are in the one week of snow we get ever couple of years.
Finally, question. When you teach, how strict are you on hand position and how you move the wheel? I did a rally day a while back and it messed with my intuitive sense of how it should work because they focused on some weird kata type training.
Anyway, still love the vids, if I'm every on that continent be sure I'm visiting you straight after customs :)
They have a video about hand position too, and lot's of other cool videos
I'd be curious to see y'all do this test with RWD & FWD to see if the results are consistent with different drivetrain.
Great job on this testing though
They did
@@joeljr570 yup in episode 2+ and whatnot
Could you do a similar test with a fwd car? Grear video as always, thank you!!!!
Come open a school in Canada!!! Some of us can't cross the border and im tripping over your videos guys you tought me sooo much 😭 huggeee thank you ! 🔥💯
Why can't you cross the border?
I’m definitely convinced about loose and slippery surfaces. I’ve always been taught that sliding is slower on high grip surfaces like pavement, though. I’d love to see a similar comparison there.
If I had to guess, the test where you didn't slide was so much slower because you were actively trying not to slide. Driving on snow is naturally gonna be really slidey, so trying to avoid that is gonna cost some time. On a less loose surface they would probably be around even and on pavement the car would naturally want to stay straight so trying to make it slide will eat time there
I don't think anyone will argue against sliding being faster in low grip conditions. But what about in a tarmac rally? In tarmac rallies and hillclimbs, some drivers slide around, some don't and both seem to work. Would be interesting to find out what's faster, and by how much
Tyre management will affect how hard to work a tyre...more slip = more heat & wear. WRC will often refer about how hard to push (slip) V's tyre life.
Tyre design, tread & construction, influences the effective optimal slip angle.
Other thoughts...
F1 used 7% (?) slip in traction control era for maximum drive (not slip angle) and no doubt tyre temperature management.
Well established that braking on gravel surfaces is aided by skidding, degraded on asphalt. Suspect a parallel to slip angles.
Very hard to find maximum grip if you don't go past it (7%?).
Excessive slip and late slip forces power /acceleration delay.
Aero devices require correct air flow and are engineered to trade drag for downforce. Approach angle is paramount to performance.
More steering angle doesn't mean more turn, same for oversteer.
Drifting (drifter's?) Don't hold lap records.
More grip, Less slip.
As you said, repeat on gravel and pavement.
I feel like different driving styles suit different surfacesi suspect staying tight and stuck will be faster on pavement.
One of these done again with telemetry data would be dope to see the in speed and exit speed on every corner, and on pavement too
and with pavement i mean like rally type of pavement obviously not like a super-wide racetrack, more like a tight course with lots of hairpins and shit, somewhere where it's not obvious which style could be faster.
I am up for sliding. When you go sideways you keep more speed so it is faster. The surface does not matter at all.. Its just a mutiplier so if you got the slides right it will always be faster..
About drive trains.. FWD will most likely go for understeer so you ain't going anywhere.. But RWD and especially AWD will carry alot more speed in the corners..
Awesome content again, nice and simple!
Another factor of a loose surface is that it interacts with the sides of the tyres too when you go sideways, and not just the contact patch at the bottom. Also, the tyres can dig down into soft loose surfaces, or ride on top of pebbles etc. that are spread over a hard surface. Each is different.
Momentum is key in car racing the smoother you can make your turns and hold your speed the better your time. On loose surfaces the tire spinning actually helps shove dirt snow and gravel under the tires helping you get grip. On pavement its crucial you maintain the rubber on the road at all times. Even getting air on a jump detracts from time you could be accelerating.
On pavement and on gravel will be good purely to shut people up.
I know from my own testing sliding is faster on certain corners etc regardless of surface, especially entry in, but without proof everyone will still say it's not, so love these tests!
I think sliding on loose surfaces is faster. But on pavement, I don't think so. I would be interested to see the same test on pavement (and then maybe on gravel, but on gravel result will most likely be the same as in this test). Great video again! It's been a month or two since I watched the last one. :D
Can you guys do a video on setting up a budget friendly car like this Impreza? Covering all the basics i.e suspension and alignment, wheel/tire, etc.
You could also do with varying amount of sliding (stuck to the road, letting it slip, sorta sideways, complete drift mode)
Ideally I would love to see that in various surfaces and drive layouts...like fwd rwd 4wd etc..
I'm always surprised by how much speed gets scrubbed off when getting sideways on gravel, but straight line braking at the same speed can feel kind of sketchy. When I am trying to get a little sideways (not racing...), I always enter the corner too slow to do it convincingly. It'd be fun to see the same test on gravel. (Mythbusters tried it, but I wasn't convinced. They were taking it too slow, not driving like a rallyist... It was the kind of "drifting" you'd expect from a 16 year old driving mom's civic.)
It might feel loose or wet on a gravel road, but if you can scuff the surface with your shoe and it's dryer and/or harder packed just under the surface, sliding the car will give you that much more grip. Watch a rally car go around a corner, then look at the tracks left behind compared to the normal road... They'll often be dryer, harder, rockier, than the top surface. You make more grip for yourself by driving harder and getting sideways. The same effect can be a bad thing though, like in this test where the tires push the snow away and you get down to the ice (not good) and that effect doesn't happen at all on hard flat surfaces like glare ice or pavement.
Here in AZ we have a lot of funky loose material (it's nearly everything really) and I long dealt with the straight line braking feels hairy in my B13 Sentra. No matter what I did she always wanted to wander if I was being at all aggressive. The cure? Rear Aero. One day I threw on a spoiler I had sitting in my misc parts pile just for something to do. HUGE change at speed. Which got me thinking that the weight balance of the vehicle was the real issue. I moved more weight to the rear and saw a big improvement in consistency for high speed turns/slides on loose stuff and much less of that swimming feeling coming into heavy braking. So, for more confident/consistent aggressive turns/slides and hotter entry try more real weight and see if that helps. The aero is just fake rear weight btw if that wasn't obvious.
Like others already mentioned: It would be interesting to see if the differences where bigger/smaller with FWD or RWD cars. For now i'm fine with tests on snow :D
Front wheel drive comparison please
FWD will always be better benefited by allowing the rear to move versus not.
Sweet video, that looked fun! Maybe a timed difference in a slalom course?
I would like to see dry pavement. I wonder if there is a defined limit where they are the same. If dry pavement is faster without sliding, then try wet pavement. Then keep narrowing it down to a specific coefficient of friction where they are equal. Maybe old all-seasons on wet pavement or something.
I would like to echo a few other comments I’ve seen so far. I’d like to see the difference in performance between the various drive types (AWD/4wd, FWD, and RWD) in this test and on other types of loose surfaces. I think any enthusiast knows, and it’s been clearly demonstrated by others, that not sliding on pavement is faster. If you want to prove that, I’ll gladly be entertained for an additional episode. 👍
In rallying you often see the cars getting some air, jumping both high and far. Would be interesting to get your thoughts on that, possibly a couple of demonstrations too. Does of course not have to be the extreme you see in those youtube compilations :-)
it's all depends on grip. The goal is to gain as much average speed as you can. So for good grip surface where you can brake and accelerate faster the best tactics is to stay steady and use slow entrance\fast exit. And for loosy surface the best way is to keep in corner as much speed as you can by drifting it
I would love to see some of these tests on gravel and pavement. Also, try ice, muddy gravel, and wet pavement.
I consider the second try to be pretty tame still, when I see people think sliding is faster, its in a much more "for the fans" way where you're full lock sideways everywhere, on the locks, etc. In your attempt you were still concentrating more on having forward motion, like the pros do :)
If sliding was faster, wrc drivers would slide everywhere, if straight and steady wrc drivers would do that.. it depends entirelly on the corner conditions and environment.. both have their benefits
Same thing on gravel in the same spot would be cool to see. Would give us a bit of an understanding about the difference in traction as well - gravel tires on gravel vs snow tires on snow. Is there a difference and how much, how big is the difference between sliding and gripping, etc.
Dirt track racing (sprint cars, a-mods, ect) definitely sees a benefit for going around corners sideways. The leaders always are sideways around corners, though I suppose the argument can be made that the cars are set up specifically to come out around the corners and the track is designed with that in mind as well. But on a loose surface, it seems like putting your power with an angle towards the center of the corner would help keep you on course, even when you are on the edge of traction. You can't go as fast period on that surface due to how much less traction you have.
Tarmac I would imagine wouldn't see as much (or any) time benefit since the traction is so much better.
I think it depends on mainly on the surface (dry gravel will be faster with no sliding). Surely on snow fighting to not slide will affect the time.
In addition in rally there are 2 more differences: first you do not do laps but stage, so not all corners are same. Second difference is in rally you do not know that perfectly every corner, so you need to be more careful with cutting and sliding.
Static and kinetic friction coefficients of snow and gravel are so similar, I'd like to see this comparison on a paved surface.
Love these videos! Well done
just a suggestion put a camera parallel to the cones u have to scrub threw the footage bet you would get way more accurate timing data
would love to see this on pavement with the drift school compared to traditional racing line. Can't wait to enroll in repeat offender program, days 3 - 5, cheers!
When driveing on snow its faster to go sideways because the tires will dig in moore to the road. The tyres also push much moore effective the snow trhough the grooves when going sideways = moore grip. When you drive on snow not slideing at all youre not on the limit because of what i told above because you have less grip just driveing on the loose surface. It is the same when you brake with abs on snow - the abs doesnt allow the tyre to dig in to the road surface, it will only use the tyre on the loose surface = less grip. Your car will stop quicker on snow without abs because the tyre will dig in to the road. I hope you understand and this is the same on all drive types fwd rwd awd. Greatings from Finland :)
On a loose/low grip surface, sliding helps push you in towards the turn and spinning the wheel helps dig down to harder surface with more grip. There are exceptions, but this is the general rule. On a hard/good grip surface this behavior will make you "float" and lose grip.
FF - in snow
FR - in snow
FA - on track/asphalt
FF - on track/asphalt
FR - on track/asphalt
This gives a comparison between common drive types, in the two extremes of surface conditions. That way if there is a pattern of driving style on the specific surfaces there can be an assumption of scaling on a spectrum.
Ex:
Solid surface ---------- Loose surface
v v v v
Grip driving ---------------- Slide driving
Grip on a racetrack
Drift gravel and snow,
Where it gets interesting is on wet damp roads or unpredictable surfaces, whenever the limit of grip is unclear so is the grip/drift argument
I've been rally racing for over a year now, racing in 100 Acre Wood and Show Me Rally here in Missouri. Watching my footage and being aware of how I'm driving, I realize that the second the car starts to slide I back off my throttle. I lose a lot of time trying to keep the car straight and I think my biggest area requiring improvement is realizing that, I am indeed in a built, caged rally car. The car is designed to slide. It has the power and the traction to pull out of a slide. I just struggle getting past that mental roadblock. We need more snow here in St Louis so I can practice in a more controlled mall parking lot, far fewer trees.
Not saying this is the case for you BUT:
That kind of lifting is usually just a symptom, the actual problem is often with the eyes...
If the car gets sideways and you're looking way ahead optimistically down the road, you'll probably go hard on the gas.
If it gets sideways and you're looking too close in front of the car, at the edge of the road, or at an object... You'll lift.
Everyone does, it's natural. We go reactive instead of proactive. Danger close. Fight or flight mode.
If you look at something, you'll either crash into it or panic steer away and who knows where you'll end up.
Your brain needs that good reference point way ahead for your sense of balance as well.
Just like if you're walking a tightrope and look in front of your feet, you fall over, but if you look way ahead it's easy.
Same thing on a bicycle, look just in front of your tire then way ahead and you'll feel the difference.
The bike goes from feeling wobbly to super stable.
Skis or snowboard, same thing, even just walking. Your brain calibrates differently looking far ahead where you want to go.
It's really hard in a rally car because there's so much to look at, it's very difficult to stay on target.
Watch this for example and try to keep your eyes down the road: ruclips.net/video/tBGzCdG3fhQ/видео.html
It looks insane until you get your eyes right and then it starts to make sense.
I absolutely love how he forgot the first lap time, and how he was oversteering with one hand on the wheel in order to stop his own stop watch. I want to drink beer with this guy.
I’d love to see the same comparo on Tarmac. I loved watching Ken Block on the Red Bull GRC drift around the track and I would swear his “showy” racing style was actually slower than cleanly cutting corners.
I'd say it's actually safer, at least with awd and fwd. As long as you get past the urge to brake and learn to get yourself out of trouble with the throttle.
Always my thought in snow, since i have a FWD car for the winter i always put good snow tires on front and whatevers on the rear, so my tendency is to oversteer, and i can correct it with throttle immediately.
@@clayton8or exactly. You'll probably lose just a little braking performance with regulars on the back. Small sacrifice I think. I had a set of blizzaks one winter. They were amazing, but I didn't take them off quick enough and they fell apart when it warmed up. Kinda pricey, so now I just tape the old hand brake button down. Lol.
Actually, the 7th gen civic's brake bias is so that with blizzaks in the front and mildly worn all seasons in the rear, on all surfaces the front locks before the rear, except in snow where it is almost simultaneous.
@@clayton8or nice. I had the blizzaks on an eg coupe. I should try that sometime. I had all seasons once with the bald ones on back and it was fun. Front still wanted to push though. I could only imagine with snows on the front.
Would love to see the same test done with fwd and rwd as well.
I'd love to see how fwd or rwd change this.
I expect the same result (sliding better than not) but those platforms probably will fare even worse when asked to drive tamely at speed on snow.
I'd like to see this on both snow and gravel, but with more of a how much sideways. You see vids from ACP that he pretty much uses sliding sidways to slow for a corner. I'd like to see that vs using the brakes to get the car slowed down for a corner and how sideways each method gets you through the corner.
wet asphalt comparision would be nice
My intuition is that on a slippery/loose surface drifting is faster simply because the car can develop more cornering force/ direction change using acceleration with the drive tires pointed in the direction of the turn. All vehicles under power will shift weight off the front wheels and regardless of drivetrain type all vehicles steer with the same tires.
My argument would be.. If you get the car sideways pointing in the direction you want to go, you now have all four tires pulling you in that direction. Holding a steady line, there are only the front two tires guiding the car along. That being said, snow is a different beast to drive on compared to pavement (tarmac).
I like the idea, think we could see a FWD car on the snow and maybe AWD on gravel?
Old school drifters for Japan always said drifting into a corner allows you to enter the corner at a faster speed. Useful in situations where you couldn't brake without being over taken. It wasn't until later, people said it was faster way around corners.
Enjoyed this casual experiment! Pavement run?? 😀
Can you guys test this in dirt and mud? I have had the discussion a few times with people I rallycross with, and they think I am nusts that sliding the rear out a littlewhen done properly can help you go faster. I think that it help the car rotate and get around the corner better when its done moderately, but thats just me.
I think it's a technique called "skid angle". It's basically a very shallow drift that helps to point the front of the car more into the corner to help turning.
I'm no expert tho
Yeah, i didnt know the name of the technique, but i originally learned it for motocycles from my dad who was a professional flat track motorcycle racer when he was younger. But I have ran enough times to know that it helps me be faster, and help fight the understeer in some of the vehicles i use.
Well that's what the pros do and they wouldn't do it if it was slower
@@IronAxeGaming1 true, but they also have much more power.i think an apples to apples comparison wouls be a good reference.
In asphalt go grip, in mud go slide
I remember when Mythbusters did this. They concluded that drifting on dirt was slower. I was like your wrong! You guy's don't know how to rally! They were the drivers instead of featuring a professional to run the track.. I was pretty upset how they went about it. I believe firmly that the combination of subtle drifts and powersliding on dirt and snow when needed will result in faster times, but not on tarmac. Getting sideways digs the walls of your tires a little into the dirt and snow. Increasing your grip around a corner. In my opinion, it can set your car up earlier for straights as well. There's more factors, but I don't feel like writing a short story here in the comments.
By the way... I've always wanted to go to your school since I discovered it's existence at 17, but I'm too poor. Even 10 years later.
We'll see if we can myth bust Mythbusters!
What they concluded was that it isn't always faster, in tight corners they found sliding was faster but in gentle bends it was slower
It is Grip dependent. I'd approximate the limit is 0.9G but that is also dependent on the drivetrain (FWD/RWD/AWD)
Guys think of an infinite 15 degree bend to the left that has a loose gravel or snow surface. If you dont slide at all the front wheels have little to no traction to turn the car to the corner so you lose time.. but if you slide the rear a little you can use the power of all 4 wheels to the direction where you want to go and the tires are on a better angle so you can steer better. Now using this princible think about any corner on the rally course.. first you break on the outside to slow down, then you want to find a slide angle that allows the car to point to the direction you want to go as soon as possible and use all the power of your car. If it’s a short corner the sliding part is just a minimal flick and while on the bend the car is already using all possible power out of the corner. If you slide and the energy is not going down the straight you lose time. In a long bend you start the slide earlier but still the only idea is to be pointing down the road as soon as possible. Look at any rally video now and you’ll get it in a second. And also note that they are not sliding an inch longer than they have to or just sliding for the sake of sliding or to be flashy.
A Little bit of slide is good on a road as well but on dirt or snow sliding seems faster. Not sure about ice or wet tarmac, I think you shouldn't slide. On snow or dirt spinning the tires creates more grip, possibly is the effect similar to rowing on water,
This is awesome. Thanks for the information boss.
Awesome Vid! How about a Studded Snow tire; would that grip more to were you wouldn't slide as much and going without a slide prove better?
Test on Gravel , Soft dirt with a hard surface underneath and then just hard compacted dirt and don't dumb it down give reasons for why certain surfaces like more or less sliding and more or less oversteer and why going sideways will slow the car down faster than actual braking more or less on certain surfaces. When wheel spin is acceptable to dig ruts through a soft surface to get to the hard surface underneath. stuff like that , ya know actual useful information.
I'd be interested in seeing some vehicle-dynamics-based explanations of this stuff if that information is out there.
Love you guys
Awesome video thank you for making this
although he was allowed to do anything, I was expecting it to go a little more "sideways". It didn't seem to require a lot of countersteer for all the sliding (except for the final ending turn). I think a track with more tight turns and hairpins might give a more interesting result.
powering through a snow covered track or digging through the gravel and rocks to get as much traction as you can...you gotta go both feet down on the floor exiting a turn to carry as much kinetic energy to stay on your line, I learned to drive this way running from the cops trying to give me tickets for racing, and never got caught rolled them into the ditch because learning to earhart a driver running in a sraight line is no way like trying to catch a light weight car setup for skinning down gravel roads and staying out of the ditch or bashing a tree....Thats how I learned to drive. Now driving a GT500 is a big A$$ handful if you want to go fast on tight roads..Kevino
even in rwd if you are on a slippery surface i would say it's faster to slide.
explaining why i think so: if you drive to the limits of the tiers without sliding you might get over/understeer at a point which is not ideal at all, with that in the back of your head you naturally will leave some safety margin.
if you slide however you are in control of under/oversteer and will be more confident as the car already is sliding it's not something that can suddenly occurs and you will naturally try to go for the fastest line with less of a safety margin as how it slides most likely will not change if you are used to the car and are in control.
try it with a fwd car and also a bit of foot cam action would be sweet
It's certainly more fun to slide... :)
I'd like to see if there's a difference between highspeed corners and lowspeed corners