Versus Series: Darth Vader Vs. Kyle Katarn (Part 3, Force Abilities)
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- Part 1 - [ • Versus Series: Darth V... ]
Part 2 - [ • Versus Series: Darth V... ]
My analysis of the Rule Of Two Sith Apprentice Darth Vader will draw from his primary appearances in Episodes I through VI of the Star Wars saga, including the novelizations, the tie-in comics, and the visual dictionaries. In addition I will be referencing The Force Unleashed game series, including its novelizations, strategy guides, and comic tie-ins, Splinter Of The Mind's Eye and its comic tie-in, and the Shadows Of The Empire novel and comic tie-in. Furthermore, I will be referencing the following Expanded Universe novels: Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader, The Rise And Fall Of Darth Vader, the Coruscant Nights trilogy, The Last Jedi (No, no! Not that one!), the Last Of The Jedi series (confusing, I know), Death Star, and the short stories In His Image and Two-Edged Sword, among others. Then, we have the comic series Dark Times, Purge, Empire, Rebellion, Tales, and what I refer to as the Darth Vader And Something Awesome series. Lastly, I will be examining Darth Vader: A 3-D Reconstruction Log for detailed information on Vader's cybernetics.
My analysis of the New Jedi Order Battlemaster Kyle Katarn will draw from his initial appearances in the Dark Forces game series, including the tie-in novellas, and its sequels, Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy. Furthermore, I will be looking over his appearances in The New Jedi Order, Legacy of the Force, and Fate of the Jedi book series, as well as the stand-alone duology Crosscurrent and Riptide. Lastly, I will be examining the Tales comic short Equals & Opposites, and the article Legacy of the Force Preview 5 by Sterling Hershey and Gary M. Sarli. Background information will be pulled from Jedi Vs. Sith: The Essential Guide To The Force, The New Essential Guide To Chronology, The Original and New Essential Guides To Weapons And Technology, The Original and New Essential Guides To Alien Species, and the Jedi Academy Training Manual, among many others.
As should be obvious, my overall analysis will be pulled purely from Legends Continuity, completely omitting all Disney Canon material. In the case of Kyle Katarn, this is because he is not featured in any New Canon material, his existance having been retconned, while receiving an obvious derivative replacement in Kanan Jarus. Though I will concede that Darth Vader is the one character that New Canon has actually managed to get right, the official continuity's version of events is so radically different from Legends that the two sources are completely incompatible. As my analytical format is essentially biographical, assessing a character's feats chronologically in order to paint a picture, not only of what they are capable of, but how they developed over time, this incompatibility is a problem. I'm not claiming that Legends Continuity is absolutely flawless with no inconsistencies or contradictions, but these issues are minor compared to how utterly broken Disney Canon is. Furthermore, Vader is so heavily featured within Legends that New Canon material is basically redundant. There are certain fights and feats that I chose to omit to save time, and there are some that I know I missed, because Vader has fought so many people across so many storylines.
With all of that out of the way, let us get underway. Darth Vader, Dark Knight of the Empire, and Kyle Katarn, the New Republic Battlemaster. If these two warrior titans of the Post-Clone Wars era were to meet in single combat on neutral ground, who would win?
Let's begin.
I saw the original video 3 times. Watching these is not an issue at all.
Great analysis, even though I loathe to see my man Vader lose by a small margin. I think your general assessment that Vader is stronger overall, but Kyle being strong enough while having more options and none of Vader’s crippling weaknesses as being spot on
he means more by Vader has more weaknesses than Katarn overall and more critical ones than Katarn particularly.
Jensaarai1 giving us the fresh Legends content on Christmas, hot damn!
Also just a matchup I thought would be interesting to see.
Cade Skywalker vs Mace Windu/Darth Malgus
Either Mace or Malgus stomp big time. Cade's brash nature is the perfect fuel for Vaapad, and Malgus is too much of a tank for him.
Love the Kyle Katarn content specifically since the jedi knight series were some of my favorite star wars games, the others being kotor. Surprisingly I haven't seen any vs between Revan and Kyle Katarn but would love to see you break them down
I think Revan's overall Lightsaber skills are below Kyle's and Vader's but his combat tactics and sheer breadth of skills under his belt including dark rituals which Darth Bane was unable or unwilling to learn shows his strengths as someone that has mastered many different disciplines both esoteric and combative, however I think his power level is below that of Palpatine's and was somewhere around Kyp Durron's level if I were to make an estimate, he's not quite on the level of those force entities like Tenebrae, GM Luke, Sidious or Yoda, but was close to it and he used his powers to great effect mastering many styles and techniques similar to Kreia, however where Revan was strongest like his former teacher was in his manipulations and subversions of those closest around him having the ability to assemble allies from unlikely places and manipulate them whether through telepathy or charm to do his will even if they did not agree with him as was seen in Shadow of Revan. I think Revan was a Niman specialist which would fit in to his multi-purpose conduct and nature, with him applying his style in a concise and measured nature rather than giving into rage, I do believe that Revan would out-think his opponents 9 times out of 10 rather than overpower them, though he has been shown to do this.
I would like to see a Ulic Qel-droma vs Revan
Darth Reven vs. Katarn, I can see Katarn victorious. Although against Revan Reborn, it would be a repeat of Kyle's duel with Darth Caedus.
@@damienlarson4145 Ulic merely contends until Revan pulls out his force abilities. Then its GG
Lord Vindican vs Kit Fisto would be awesome to see.
Or Darth Krayt reborn vs Dynasty of Evil Darth Bane
@@computercarnage113 Evan already did Reborn Krayt vs DoE Bane. Fisto would stomp Vindican, c'mon now. You're comparing a jobber of a Sith Lord to a mid-tier Council Master from the peak of the Order's history.
@@wristofkings I'm not so sure, Fisto's dedication into form I has left him biting off more than he can chew in a few instances, and I can definitely see Vindican taking advantage of that, being the opportunistic fighter that he is. You also have to keep in mind that Jensaarai believes that Vindican can defeat Luminara Unduli, a Jedi master, not to mention he contended with dual blades (despite his use of the saberstaff) in the hands of a Jedi Battle master, only being struck down when said battle master resorted to extremely unorthodox trakata tactics. Vindican is not overmatched.
@@computercarnage113 I think it would be a interesting fight
@@kanekikingstorm2113 I think so too, I would predict Vindican winning 6 times out of 10. It would surely be a tough fight.
I really watched all 3 in one night.
Vader. It's an interesting matchup. Kyle is faster and more skilled but Vader's durability and strength make me declare him the victor.
I can see this happening, yeah. But I favour Katarn over Vader due to era's, powers and contemporaries. Darth Vader has a long track record but he only fought with 3 COuncil-master characters and nobody in the Grand Master League. Kyle Katarn's contemporary include Kyp Durron, Corran Horn, Mara Jade, Saba Sabetyne, Kenth Hammer, jaina Solo-Fel, and GM Luke SKywalker. All were at least acquaintances for 2-3 decades, training and sparring against one another and even among them Katarn was a real heavyweight. Similar to Yoda training and sparring with hundreds of high-class Jedi for centuries, Katarn's contemporaries (include 3 official Grand Masters) leave him better prepared for fighting another in or even above his league.
Force-lightning, endurance or strength aside, Katarn has more powers to work with than Darth Vader carries and unlike Old Jedi Order pretentiousness, he doesn't care how he can win or survive, so long as he can. Even a fake-surrender, pairing his lightsaber and blaster together at once, or taking a minor injury to deliver a lethal or crippling one, Katarn would use it. Darth Vader's own image of Jedi can be very black-and-white, to the point I actual do not think he would imagine a jedi functioning like Katarn does, nor a jedi whom can stand in the Dark and the Light while remaining solidly a jedi.
Worse, if Kyle does come under enough pressure, he might actually call a tad more on the Darkside with composure and skill instead of rigidly rejecting it or dabbling with unfamiliar powers as Old Jedi Order Knights would.
The fight between them is close, but to me Katarn's capabilities, his opinion with the Force, and his position as one of the best in the ERA of Greats push the scales in his favour.
Vader gets my vote. Kyle can't deal with Vader's strength and durability forever. I congratulate you though. Nice work👍
Disagreed, Kyle is no ordinary Jedi, and he doesn't necessarily need to keep going at Vader head to head to beat him.
Hey Jensaarai , can you do an in depth TCW rant video? Topics such as depowering of certain characters and personality changes (Kenobi being too sassy and Anakin having no transition)
That would be like a 5 hour or more rant lol.
@@ironinquisitor3656 worth
@@tgyk4048 I'd still watch it if it was that long lol.
YES
bro, cmon. I want a new versus videos and debate about shit disney star wars. I don't want a rant of TCW. Not because I like it (yes hate me. I like it), but because the council forecast already made their point about TCW being inconsistent as hell and their opinions on it.
Also, Kenobi being too sassy and Anakin having no transition
How does anakin not have a transition? Did you not see the key episodes of his changes? Rush clovis incident? Mortis? Anakin receiving a padawan and then said padawan leaves the order because the jedi council didn't believe in her thus making him lose more faith in the order and becoming disillusioned? This is more of a personal gripe. I don't even think the council forecast would even complain about the personality changes besides obi wan, and not for the reason of being sassy, because anakin was consistent throughout the entire show. Besides the inconsistent power scaling, his personality was intact.
EDIT: TCW powerscaling makes no sense. Yes. I know. I forgot to put it when taking anakin into account.
Great videos as always. I truly enjoy just how analytical your breakdowns are. The passion and care with which you construct these match ups is readily apparent, and I truly thank you for it.
However, with all due respect I must say I don’t think Kyle Katarn has a chance at victory. Yes, Kyle Katarn has some of the sharpest wit and fluid shifts of any lightsaber duelists in Star Wars, but this approach worked well for him in the Jedi Knight series due to the poor quality of opponents he was facing.
A lone Jedi who had not seen combat in *decades* made a *fool* of Jerec’s six subordinates all at once. Yes, Qu Rahn was a Jedi Master (a quarter of a century ago), but he was no Kit Fisto or Plo Koon.
That clumsy, haphazard clan of Dark Jedi’s threat level was predicated on being the only show in town. And for however sparse training *they* had, they were leagues above the Force-imbued servants of Desann (Jedi Knight: Jedi Outcast) and of Tavion (Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy). Servants so untrained they had to fight in pairs: one using a lightsaber to ANH Luke Skywalker level, the other using crude, rudimentary Force powers.
And who could properly train them en masse? Desann was a half-trained fallen Jedi Padawan, and Tavion was the half-trained apprentice of half-trained apprentice Desann. All of Kyle Katarn’s victories are against opponents who would be laughed off by the Jedi Order of the Prequel Trilogy.
Darth Vader on the other hand grew tremendously in power in the interim between _Revenge of the Sith_ and _A New Hope_ , he says as much when rematching with Obi-Wan (who himself received two decades worth of training from Force Ghost Qui Gon Jinn).
And as of the final installment of the Prequel Trilogy, Anakin Skywalker was the second greatest duelist and powerhouse of the Jedi Order - second only to Master Yoda, the then most powerful Jedi of all time.
Darth Vader proves himself in the OT to be a far more refined duelist than he was in ROTS, a more powerful duelist than his pre-suit days, and to have retained all the dexterity of his blade.
Darth Vader fully assimilated the tactics and skills of his two greatest opponents - Darth Tyranus and Obi-Wan Kenobi - and melded them in perfect conjunction with his own power form and the force derivative from his mechanical arms and weighty suit.
On a technical standpoint, Darth Vader is the most well rounded and refined duelist in Star Wars. And given that he is *80%* as powerful as *ROTJ* Emperor Palpatine - who casually rattled off Force prophesies like he was a runway Oracle of Delphi - Darth Vader’s emphasis on combat ensures he should be as fierce and deadly a duelist as there ever was (sans Luke Skywalker).
Who is Kyle Katarn in comparison to that? Who is he even in comparison to the like of ROTS Obi-Wan Kenobi? Or even TPM Darth Maul, who ROTS Obi-Wan would make short work of?
Yet I don’t even see a lightsaber duel taking place between Darth Vader and Kyle Katarn. What is to stop Darth Vader from manhandling Kyle with the Force? Just grabbing Kyle and twisting his neck 180 degrees at the word go?
The only substantial “feat” I’d say Kyle Katarn has is that Darth Caedus considered him a threat. But that’s a vague designation, especially given that this is the same Darth Caedus that had to use cheap tricks to survive his fight with Mara Jade, a Jedi Master I’d call Kit Fisto level at most (though I’d still back Kit).
Darth Caedus is a Sith Lord whose overwhelming power in the Force infamously fails to translate over to his combative skills. Mara Jade, the Mandalorian squad, Jaina Solo? All opponents he could have brutalized and called it a day. But he failed time and again to use his might to full effect. Very bad writing, I don’t blame Caedus. But whatever way you slice it, even Kyle was easily dispatched by Caedus, he would be sliced to ribbons in seconds by Darth Vader.
"What is to stop Darth Vader from manhandling Kyle with the Force? Just grabbing Kyle and twisting his neck 180 degrees at the word go?"
Defense against telekinesis, Force walls.
@@ironinquisitor3656 Force walls are only as good as the Jedi projecting them. Obi-Wan Kenobi had astoundingly powerful telekinesis as of _Revenge of the Sith._ On par with ROTS Darth Vader’s magnitude.
Didn’t stop Darth Tyranus from manhandling him. We know that Darth Vader grew to be considerably more powerful than Tyranus, especially in the department of telekinesis.
And Obi-Wan has demonstrated ability beyond anything Kyle Katarn has put out.
Was it you or someone else who came up with the phrase “Beethoven post-deaf” or something, for post suit Vader? Great observation I thought
It was in the ROTS novelization when Vader had been put into the suit and discovered Padme died
Hmmmmm, you know I’ve been hoping for a while to see a yuzzan vong character in one of these battles.
Any good ideas for Shedao Shai? I was thinking darth sion cause of the whole pain gimmick!
I watched the original and i watched the reupload, now i can consider myself as a complete and happy human being 😃 Xd. Great work man. I cant wait for the new contend. Top notch work.
Can you do Jaden Korr vs Starkiller
I thought this fight was very close too....Ultimatly I came to the same conclusion at the end.
I'll have to watch when I got time good to see it though.
TY Merry Christmas Jen
Do you know what’s going on with Exar Kun Vs Darth Bane? Are we getting it?
There's also Blademaster Kasim Vs Kao Cen Darach, not to mention other matchups that were taken down like Ventress Vs Sedriss.
@@yrooxrksvi7142 I think Kasim is going to crush Darach. If Ventress can do it, I don't see how Kasim can't.
@@computercarnage113 Eh, one can never know
@Dimond360_
Not sure if you’ve seen Jensaarai1’s latest video yet, but in it he said that he will eventually get around to finishing the Exar Kun vs Darth Bane video, though the project has been somewhat stalled due to it no longer being a collaborative work between Jensaarai1 and GreyJedi91.
A couple things to consider:
1. Vader has only been bested by users of force lightning who have taken it to the highest degree of proficiency. I don't think Count Dooku's would be enough to affect Vader enough, and can be blocked by a light saber. Katarn's lightning is less proficient than Dooku's, being mid-upper level while Dooku's is high level.
2. Imo, the fight would come down to if Vader can make Katarn make a mistake. Vader's technique is more skilled and refined, but as said in the video has some weaknesses. Weaknesses that imo, have been exploited to greater effect by other opponents who Vader has bested. Katarn has never faced an opponent with Vader's experience, skill, finesse with a lightsaber, and someone who leverages their abilities as well as Vader.
3. Vader has the ability to make a mistake, or feint Katarn into injuring him, while Katarn cannot withstand a direct or glancing lightsaber strike. Katarn has survived physical blows from strong opponents, but hasn't taken hits from debris from multiple angles, while countering lightsaber and physical attacks. Katarn has to whittle Vader down, while Vader just needs one glancing hit to change the fight, and/or one clean hit to end it.
These are strong points, although I disagree with some of them.
In any fight, mistakes can actually decide the entire contest in an instant. No question.
Force Lighting is certainly not a trump card against Vader for anyone with proficiency with that skill lower than Darth Sidious. Katarn, however, follows a combined-arms or MMA-style use for any skill and power he has available, and his power can seriously disrupt Vader; similar to low-kicks in combat sports. Force lightning is an effective set-up or disruptor which Vader would need a moment to adapt against while engaging Katarn. Dooku exercised Force-lightning as a trump card to remove individuals without investing effort to duel them, or as a fall-back. The Count once used the power as a defibrillator to keep General Grevious alive, something Katarn has never employed, yet in a combat scenario Kyle is more pragmatic.
Further, Katarn has multiple highly-developed defensive force-powers, from deflecting telekinesis from Yavin-empowered Desaan or implicitly against Darth Caedus. Along with superior Force-absorption and telepathic defenses which even Vader never completely developed.
As for opponents facing individuals with Vader's skill, experience and more...look at who Katarn could sharpen his own skills against. Outside of missions, figures in Kyle's league do require regular practice to maintain their regular skills, including sparring. Vader invested in droids wielding lightsabers to broaden his own combat palette, while as Anakin Skywalker, he and Kenobi sharpened themselves with each other. Count Dooku and General Grievous did the same, even so far that Dooku was hard-pressed to maintain the dominant position and withheld certain techniques or observations from the Cyborg.
Implicitly, members of Luke Skywalker's NJO would keep their martial skills sharp through semi-regular bouts with other knights and masters, their own apprentices, and each other. Katarn's most available sparring partners include Kyp Durron, Corran Horn, Kam Solusar, Mara Jade Skywalker, Saba Sabetyne, his own apprentice Jaden Korr, plus Grand Master Luke Skywalker himself. With contemporaries like them, all of whom learned from Luke himself while the GM was still under 1 decade after his own encounters with the most senior Skywalker, laws in inheritance would leave Katarn capable of catching on with at least a sliver of familiarity with Vader's methods. Mixing that with regular sparring practice against so many top-tier duelists, Katarn does have an undersold degree of circumstantial preparation against Vader.
As for Katarn lacking the same fortitude against Vader and being forced to deconstruct the cyborg, Vader would have to strike or injure Katarn first. The Jedi Master is one tough tank, not too far off Kenobi's durability. I do concede that Vader could take a crippling blow to deliver a lethal one, which he did exercise against the Darth Maul doppelganger and Koffi Arana. Kyle Katarn can do the same, to a degree, taking a kick from a Yuzzhan Vong and then stabbing a grenade into his foe's chest. Vader will need to whittle down Katarn less than Kyle will have to work for the same results, yet neither would be killed or crippled by a single clean hit.
Can you please make Jaden Korr vs Asajj Ventress
I definitely side with Vader on this one, it’s a battle of attrition and with Katarn’s background he wouldn’t go dark rage and overwhelm Vader … i think Vader would outlast then eventually slay Katarn
Edit: Watched this again, can we not count Vader’s defeat against Luke? Taking into consideration that Vader had no true interest in killing Luke… Yes he provoked Luke into a dark rage and was overwhelmed however his true goal was to convert not slay. I doubt Kyle would over power him similarly and his added force powers like lightning is definitely viable but not truly a deciding factor
@Emperor Vowrawn DE Luke being stronger than Sidiouis definitely a reach Luke needed assistance to defeat Sidious in DE . While I definitely see Caedus> Vader I don’t see Katarn>Vader . It’s an even match up where to me at most it’s a draw. There are no instances of Kyle straight over powering his opponents ( Desann etc) he’s Anakin if he went the tactical swordsman route . And I don’t see Katarn out fencing Vader especially after all the opponents Vader has had to face and learn . Only reason why Vader took a L to Luke was that he was trying to capture and convert him which backfired. Even ROTJ Luke would’ve still lost to Vader if his goal was to kill
@Emperor Vowrawn but we already learned that raw power means nothing in Star Wars. For sure Luke was at Yoda’s power level in ROTJ but no way he approached his skill level in force wielding. Your arguments are disjointed and what you mention is irrelevant to what makes Kyle more viable against Vader other than blanket comparisons.
They’re evenly matched in almost all regards the only difference between them is physical ability but that doesn’t make a big difference due to skill and experience. I’d say it’d be a draw cause honestly it’s been shown the only way you can defeat Vader is by overpowering him or out fencing him. Kyle might be able to defeat him with lightsaber skill due to his better agility but Vader’s armor negates that cause he could always hurt himself just to severely wound Kyle . Kyle isn’t tanking as much damage as Vader
Saw this message and thought about a small rebuttle. In Jensaarai's conclusions, he summarised that Katarn would not out-muscle Vader as Luke did aboard the Death Star, instead Kyle was strong enough to stand his ground and foil Vader's strength advantage. Both characters have multiple foils to one another's preferred MO's, yet Vader had slightly more disadvantages, and from his track record Vader is slightly more prone to miss-assessing Katarn's capabilities or actions.
Vader would win in the long run, albeit likely in pieces from Kyle whittling him down. Yet Vader never had a fight with another Tier-1 class Force wielder in any media I am aware of. Katarn's contemporaries include Corran Horn, Kyp Durorn, Luke SKywalker, Mara Jade, Kenth Hamner, and more NJO jedi who are at or above the highest calibre foes Vader encountered: Anya Kuro,, Galen Marek and Ben Kenobi.
While Katarn has a long record of punching above his weight class with more success than defeats, and he does carry a wider arsenal of combat-focus powers (both offensive and defensive) than Darth Vader. And unlike past Old Jedi Order members, he is sufficiently pragmatic to use all of them to end a threat.
Katarn defies Vader's black-and-white view on Jedi, he is capable enough to foil Vader's scientific approach to fight and kill other Force wielders, and this match-up would be decided by mistakes and misjudgements. Both of which Vader is more prone to making than Katarn.
Have you seen the film "Die another Day?" Honestly, Vader vs. Katarn would mirror Miranda Frost's duel with Jinx (2 bond girls fighting each other). The choreography of said encounter was a sword-duel, with Jinx cycling through multiple skills while Miranda was an Olympic fencer and more dominant in the fight. So dominant she proceed with a claim "I can read your every move" and was dead 3 seconds later.
Anya Kuro and Ki Adi Mundi vs Aryn Leneer and Ven Zallow. Bastilla Shan vs Lord Vindican. Lucien Draay vs Boc Aseca. Quinlan Vos vs Alema Rar would be a great short. Darth Bane(orbalisk armor) vs Darth Sidious( dark empire clone). Sedriss vs Wolf Sazen. Jaden Korr vs Antares Draco. Roan Shryne Vs Darth Azard.
I would love to see Assajj ventress vs Darth Talon or count doku vs shake tii. Just video ideas for the future😅
There is a Plo Koon and Shaak Ti vs Dooku and Maul team fight xD
Merry Christmas Jensaarai1!
Awesome reupload of this matchup. 1 question, why separate this into multiple parts?
Lucien Draay vs Qui-Gon Jinn also Merry Christmas
Also Merry Christmas
Jensaarai One what do you think of the newest addition to the old republic: Echoes of Oblivion?
Taking into account that Jen hates both Emperor Vitiate and the SWTOR incarnation of Revan, I doubt that he liked that expansion or that he even played the game for that matter.
Question: Has Kyle ever used Force Lightning in a novel or comic? If it's just gameplay footage then isn't that due entirely to player choice and therefore isn't a confirmed ability?
Uhhh okay, however Occams Razor suggest that if an ability is available while still maintaining the canon of the game itself, then he is capable of using it.
Especially cause he had a brush with the dark side.
@@movieman6456 Cool, that makes sense.
@Emperor Vowrawn I see. Thanks.
@@Wright805 Well, Kyle also never used again the Darkshear, Force Destruction or Sever Force since Dark Forces 2 and Mysteries of the Sith tbh, but maybe that's because of the very Dark nature of the first two, and the labor intensive use of the third one.
No way vader losing bro. He has killing down to a science. Almost all jedi vader kills have advantage of speed an agility. The force Lightning is a weakness. But is katanas Lightning strong enough to overwhelm vader?? I don't think so.
Also are we forgetting that force lightning can be block by a lightsaber?
Vader tbh, his agility and speed is very underrated. Kyles lightning isn’t nearly powerful enough.
I'm still trying figure out how Vader can use kinetite while around the artifact and not short out his cybernetics? Surly the artifact doesn't enhance his cybernetics like his force connection. Plot hole
Because it's not exactly a stream of lightning coming out of his fingertips
Then why need an artifact to use it? He had 80% of sidious's power the most powerful sith to ever live he could've easily used it without aid? Makes no sense
@@blueeyedboy7648 That's like asking why Sith would need magic and alchemy if they have the Force. Because there are multiple branches than just raw power. Do your research instead of just jumping to assumptions.
It's not an assumption you pathetic meat sack it's an obvious observation
@@blueeyedboy7648 Getting triggered because you have no real arguments ? LMFAO You're a sad pathetic 13 year old. I'll repeat once again, if Sith can use alchemy and magic, Force users in general can be amped up and get access to powers they wouldn't be usually able to use when in possession of a certain artifact. Another example is the Muur Talisman, which can turn people into Rakhgouls.
Crawl back to your Reylo Tumblr post if you're gonna cry some more. Dumbass kid....
Loved this, so awesome
Antares Draco vs Wolf Sazen. Starkiller( clone) vs Antares Draco. Antares Draco vs Lucien Draay. Quinlan Vos vs Jaden Korr. Bultar Swan vs Ganner Krieg. Aryn Leneer vs Starkiller ( clone) . Darth Zannah vs Darth Wyrlock(III). Darth Azard vs Antares Draco. Quinlan Vos vs Rham Kota.
Great video i loved it!
Usually i agree with connor's verdicts but here im not convinced.
I think one of vaders strengths is his experience fighting jedi just like kyle.
Kyle really isnt bringing anything new or different that would surprise vader. Also, vaders suit and ability to take hits strategically to open his foes defenses is a huge huge huge advantage in lightsaber combat. In a world of rapier duelists, vader is a knight in plate armor.
Kyle is an impressive duelist but his feats of lightsaber combat arent as impressive as vaders. Yes they both have defeated a wide range of opponents, both traditional and unorthodox. But while kyle mastered the three rings, vader invented them. Every jedi after luke had thier training directly influenced because of what vader did to lightsaber combat.
I also think vaders lightning weakness is given too much emphasis. Yes hes weak against lightning, SO IS EVERYONE ELSE. If lightning hits you, you get hurt but vader has his lightsaber to block it. Obi wan (as a newish knight) shut down dookus lightning just by holding his blade up.
"Kyle really isnt bringing anything new or different that would surprise vader."
> Force lightning and choke, integrates blasters and explosives. And Kyle doesn't just have the 3 rings of defense, there's also Shii Cho, Ataru and Djem So, as common and all too well known to Vader as they might be.
Also, if the Starkiller clone was able to subdue Vader with lightning, so can Katarn.
@@yrooxrksvi7142 vader has faced off against all those things before in different fights. And starkiller didnt just subdue vader with force lightning. It wasnt that simple. His lightning was on par with palpatine, maybe kyles isnt. Kyle has no skills that vader doesnt possess or hasnt faced down before.
Yes kyle is bringing them all in one package, but that only makes him vaders equal, not his better. I dont believe kyle could overpower vader physically. I dont think his speed is anything spectacular beyond what vader has already faced.
I agree with connor about the early fight, i dont think either would have a win there. In the mid fight it gets violent, with blood taken on both sides. Vader might take a saber through the leg and strike kyles head from his shoulders, but its equally likely that kyle surprises him with a clever application of force lightning.
In the long game though, kyle lags, or slips or vader sees enough of him to figure him out.
Kyles no unorthodox fighter, hes just well rounded with a variety of skills. But all those skills are fairly standard.
@@mattmaughan6871 Starkiller's lightning was definetely NOT on par with Palpatine, otherwise Vader would have been fried.
And being faced with all these powers and abilities at once is what definetely make a difference here. And unlike other Force users Vader has faced, Kyle has a bounty hunter-like set of weapons. So how can Vader deal with an opponent who relies on both ?
Don't get too caught on a single scenario. Try to consider all possible outcomes.
@@yrooxrksvi7142 i am considering all possible outcomes, but kyle has a pistol, vaders tutaminus and/or armor negates, and a thermL detonator, which vader has held in his hands as it went off before.
Aside from his lightsaber thats all katarn has for this fight as jensarrai has said.
Starkiller went toe to toe with the emperor lightning to lightning in the game. Yes sideous won but starkiller held him off. Maybe not equal, but on par.
Kyle fought against jacen and lost by jacen doing exactly what vader would do. Engage in saber combat and hit him with thrown stuff.
You dont have to agree with my conclusion danielle, just as i dont have to agree with connors, but im not a vader fanatic or hate kyle. Ive got what i see as valid concerns i dont think were effectively negated in the arguments presented.
@@mattmaughan6871 Tutaminis (at Vader's level) can't block more powerful blasters such as Wookie bowcasters, or the charged shots of a Bryar pistol. At least, not as effectively. And if Kyle can overwhelm Vader with anything he has, there's only so much he can tank before faltering and having to rely on something devastating to stop Kyle.
There's that fight with Caedus outside the Senate building, that's right, but it has to be very circumstantial. Just like Starkiller holding off Sidious' lighting was completely circumstantial.
I'm not accusing you of anything, Matt. And please, call me Dan.
Hey Jen, what is your general opinion of the Sc.38 Reimagined fanfilm ? I think it's an amazing piece of fanwork, though knowing you, I have a feeling you probably disapprove of Vader being the attacker instead of acting defensively next to Kenobi....
Respectfully disagree, I think Kyle could give him a good fight maybe one of his hardest but I don't think he'd beat vader
@Emperor Vowrawn was Kyle battling jerec really a perma amp?
Nice!
I remember Galen Marek (and Starkiller) managing to beat Vader in the first and second games respectively but the former's force abilities had contributed much to his performance against Vader (skillful integration of force abilities during a duel). It's also (probably) true that Starkiller's raw potential in the force was equal (if not superior) to Palpatine.
So the vid mentioned that Vader is stronger in the force overall but Kyle Katarn is strong enough + has more versatility, but how strong is Kyle Katarn in the force really?
Oh, and since this part of the vid went right into the overall conclusion as soon as comparisons between both Vader/Katarn's force abilities were settled, did I understand correctly that for the Force abilities section, both Kyle Katarn and Vader's abilities in it are equal (meaning no edge is given to either combatant in that particular area)?
Vader wins. Kyle can't match Vader's stamina and strength.
Why do you assume Kyle would constantly face Vader directly like a fool ?
I hope you reupload your Darth Malgus Vs. Sora Bulq video. It was fun.
Or Ventress vs Sedriss
How come it was taken down?
What the hell happened
Music at 12:25?
i knew it because the best jedi grandmaster and jedi battle master in star wars is luke skywalker and kyle katarn when can you make more vs series anakin skywalker vs plo koon or anakin skywalker vs luke skywalker vs ben solo/kylo ren to which skywalker is the most powerful
Personally, I think Kyle Katarn is massively overrated. All video game characters tend to be due to the special kinship we players feel with them, but Kyle especially so.
His named opponents were all either half-trained apprentices or the half trained apprentices of said half-trained apprentices. A lone Jedi Master who had not seen combat in a quarter of a century made a fool of Jerec’s six subordinates all at once in seconds!
Desann had what, a few years of training before falling? Tavion even less so. The Prequel Trilogy Jedi Order would laugh out loud at those clowns.
As for the other matchups, Anakin Skywalker would finish Plo Koon off in seconds. Very similar manner to Vader’s duel with Cin Drallig. Anakin is a Tier 9 duelist versus Plo Koon’s Tier 7. That, and Plo Koon has never been a lightsaber fight for his life. Anakin had been in over a dozen by the time of his conversion.
As for which Skywalker is the most powerful, the Disney Trilogy is very broken. But I would back Luke Skywalker in that battle, with Ben Solo coming in second, and Darth Vader making a very distant third.
Luke managed to project himself across hundreds of star systems. And he wasn’t a simple illusion, given that he physically touched Leia, handed her die that she and later Ben Solo physically held. Not to mention he radiated Luke’s power and presence, or Ben Solo would have seen through it instantly.
That I find to be above anything Ben Solo does in _The Rise of Skywalker_ without working in full concert with Rey Palpatine in their dyad.
Ben Solo for his part proves to be substantially superior to Rey in the final Disney Trilogy film. His best feat being to easily counter Rey’s attempt to Force Tractor Beam the large spacecraft back to the ground.
Rey’s manipulation of blaster bolts in her fight against the Imperial Guards on the Sith Planet is beyond anything Darth Vader ever did. Ben Solo again proves superior to Rey on that planet, as he recovered from Grandpa Palpatine’s attack far quicker than Rey (who had to be helped up by “All the Jedi”).
@@theopportuneson699 People also forget and some don't even know that gameplay footage and mechanics were not canon. Only the general story and events were canon. Desaan only got as powerful as he did because of empowerment from the Valley of The Jedi nexus and the nexus in the Yavin temple. Kyle defeating Jerec was more because of the Valley of The Jedi spirits aiding Kyle to weaken and nerf Jerec's connection to the Force.
@@ironinquisitor3656 That too, thank you for bringing up those further points. It’s been a while since I’ve played those games.
@@theopportuneson699 No prob!
@@theopportuneson699 Beg your pardon but this bit here:
"Plo Koon has never been a lightsaber fight for his life."
Not so. Koon fought Asajj Ventress and not only held his own, he managed to disarm her of one of her blades. Keep in mind also that Koon had a broken arm at the time. Also Koon apparently defeated Yoda once in a sparring match (granted that one's a little dubious).
"Anakin is a Tier 9 duelist versus Plo Koon’s Tier 7."
Maybe so but Tiers aren't everything. You also need to look at tactics, battlefield conduct, alternative skills etc. Besides there isn't THAT big a gap between 9 and 7. It's a difference of 2.
Would Anakin win? Yes, absolutely. But not in seconds.
Galen Marek vs Sora Bulq. Wolf Sazen vs Lucien Draay, Qui gon jinn vs Ki Audi Mundi, Aryn Leneer vs starkiller(clone), Celeste Morne vs Volffe marko or Exar Kun, Darth Nihl vs Quinlan Vos.( Nihl is stronger in the force but Vos is a superior duelist and tactician) Darth Zannah vs Celeste Morne, lord Odion vs Antares Draco, Darth Azard vs Ven Zallow.
Most of these suggestions aren't competitive
Like what? Their all on similar levels and Connor often does unconventional match ups anyway.
Jensaarsi I have a great idea for a vs battle if your interested Revan vs Mace Windu
Can you guys bring back the jedi forecast just to talk about the mandalorian season 2 finally
Or The Mandalorian as a whole. The only one who bothered to check it was Antoine, and he seemed rather unimpressed, he also said the rest of Forcecast Council don't care at all. And honestly, I don't blame them. Season 1 was a bland and forgettable space western, Season 2 was too reliant on OT or TCW guest stars to advertise new shows.
Please do darth vader vs darth zannah
Vader. Either he destroys her defense, and if she tries a spell of fear and madness, it might work for a fraction, but Vader's will is too strong.
@@yrooxrksvi7142 still an interesting battle
@@darksamuri3968 Admittedly yes
Vader
Zannah dies.
I got an idea. Kit Fisto Vs Qu Rahn
Cool idea ! Though Kit is definetely several spans above Rahn, despite their similar skills.
Fisto stomps.
Kyle would win fo sho
Dude how is vader stronger in every category an still lose😂🤣 like vader ain't never fought a dude faster then him.
heres a point, why hasn't anyone try to use ionize on vaders cybernetics
Three possible answers:
1. It's an Old Republic Era power that wasn't practiced during the movie Era, though I'd have to confirm.
2. All the movie Era practitioners died during Order 66.
3. Those who attempted it weren't powerful enough to penetrate Vader's Force defenses.