Good refresher. I find when I have locked my elbows I involuntarily anticipate the recoil and everything is low to the left. Every stinking time. The issue worsens as the frame size decreases.
I found the exact same thing. I was shooting low and to the left for months until I finally got some instruction. Bending the elbows a little help a lot. And I did not leave the range with soar elbows! lol
I've always noticed that when I try the "upside down horseshoe" recommended by instructors like Amy 556 and John Lovell, that I get the bottom of my hands coming off the gun a bit like you mentioned. I've never liked that technique. I'll have to try your opposite one.
Very good points. As soon as you lock any joints you lose mobility as well as time spent "unlocking" AND you increase potential for inquiry, all of which in a defensive situation can be critical.
I've always been of the opinion that this was the way to go, but I had never actually, conciously, tested it. Very thorough and understandable explanations. Great vid as usual.
@@greenthumbpatriot3295 no I went to the police department and filled out all the paperwork and fingerprints did the class and certified mailed it to Tallahassee. Nothing yet.
@@David.Anderson awful I’m sorry that’s not right! I hope you get it sooner than later. Here in commiefornia you get it almost within a week or less after the interview and fingerprinting with the Sherrif. My brother just got his, I’m in the process of getting mine right now.
I like Ben Avery's a lot. Awesome shooting range! I have a spot around the corner from there I regularly go to. I moved to Phx about a year ago. Would love to take your class, and meet you, John; Mike from Fieldcraft is another individual. Thanks for your time and content.
Also if you lock your elbows out, your support hand will slowly start to come off the gun and you having to re-adjust your support hand back on the gun. It might not seem like it at first, but you will notice it if you shoot with your elbows locked out. Bend both elbows!
Thanks for the post! As a new shooter, this is a mistake I've been making. I finally took my MantisX to the range, and my score went way down. It kept saying my wrists or shoulders weren't locked. I went to the RUclipss to see what I could do better, and I think it's exactly as you described. My dry fire is better, but I'm looking forward to another range trip soon.
@@LK-gw6to I've had mine about a month, and I love it. I've invited a couple neighbors over to check it out, and they both really liked it too. I also got to see which neighbor I don't want to go to the range with, and that right there may have made it worth the money. I bought my first shotgun, and I am anxious to try the shotgun app at the range too.
@@LK-gw6to yes, even after I said something! And all of our dogs too! After he got a very low score too, I knew he was all talk. Fortunately we were using his gun at my house, so no ammo around.
Thanks for this video, exactly what I was looking for in terms of elbow bend clarity. I was debating if I should lock my elbows out, because what I'm finding is that I'm flinching, pushing down when I'm pressing the trigger (from the MantisX analysis) when I'm on the range, but not doing it when I'm dryfiring. Trying to figure out how to stop the flinch/anticipation push down.
Honestly one of the better explanations about this and demonstrations about this I’ve seen. I personally feel that grip is not emphasized as much as it should be. Grip is the foundation of shooting. And without a solid foundation your left with a house of cards. Good work John! Keep up the awesome work your doing!
There's multiple ways to get the same result, but I'll have to disagree with the elbow thing. The bending I agree with, I don't with having them lower. That give Watch yong lee's finger over the trigger guard video, he's a uspsa gm if that makes reading my defense worth it. Competitors like him are usually at the highest level for a reason. Around the end he showcases that with none of his primary hand's grip fingers on the gun, he can still shoot relatively flat. When you bring your elbows high, your arms are forced to bend in a completely horizontal axis. It's the way our joints are set up. Notice if you watch your gun recoil in slow motion, it goes upwards and makes your arms do a wave as the force goes through them. Then, your arms have to fall back downwards and that takes time. If you don't believe me, go frame by frame using comma and period in RUclips. You also mentioned how the bottom of your hands get pulled away when bringing your elbows high. That's true, but physics tells us that torque is force times perpendicular distance (taking the angle between the force and distance to be 90 degrees hence perpendicular but just to be clear). So if we apply as much force as possible at the top of the gun, we're avoiding a lot of the torque we'd have to deal with before it even travels further down the grip of the gun. It's going to take the path of least resistance, so if we apply enough force at the top of the gun by rotating the elbows and using our hands as a nutcracker of sorts, we eliminate a huge amount of muzzle flip and get a faster return. This, in conjunction with isometric tension in the wrists, and you get an easy to track recoil pattern that's straight up and down. I can have a totally loose grip, and tighten my wrists independently. My hand's grip only serves to keep the gun from slipping. I can grip the gun as hard as I want and still get crazy muzzle flip because my wrists don't work in conjunction with my hands for whatever reason. The rest of the recoil management comes from the wrists moving minimally, and the elbows absorbing a good deal of the force. That's what I've found after being obsessed with being able to shoot flat as possible for the last few months. I understand your idea of applying torque through your pinky. I simply use my hands for grip and grip alone. Also notice that when you bring your left wrist as forward as possible, you're lowering the torque it's being subjected to since the meat of your thumb gets closer to your forearm. Again, there's more than one way to achieve the same goal. But as someone who isn't big or muscular, I've found this to be the easiest.
Remember what I said about size mattering, and I see GM-level shooters using their attributes all the time. They're badass with a gun, and I am all about it, but for instance Rob Leatham slaps the trigger like it stole something from him and can do that because of the grip advantage he has with his size and strength. You and I can't get away with that inefficiency, but he can. Same with the grip of Yong Lee. So all the rest of what you're saying is flawed on that premise alone.
@@ASPextra You missed the part where I said even with my lack of grip strength and muscle it still nets greater results. Bringing your elbows more in line with the force vector leads to less of a torque on your elbows. No matter what size you are, that's the case. Look at Lena Miculek. Her video on grip focuses on getting as high as possible on the gun with her support hand, again bringing that force vector more in line with the arm and she's not anyone's idea of a massive person.
@@ASPextra The grip with lena miculek video on sig sauer's channel again screams everything I'm trying to say. Using your arms instead of the muscles going into your fingers is far easier for someone without a good grip strength.
No, it doesn't. Feel free to think that way, but the body works the way the body works man. The force vectors on the gun benefit far more from elbows down than out.
This is a video explaining why the grip mechanics favor elbows down, without mentioning elbows because it is about grip force. ruclips.net/video/ypsUsNJ9Z4g/видео.html
I've said this before and I will say it again, your explanation of the physics of firearm recoil is terrible and I would recommend to not continuing including this into your videos. Mechanical forces are one dimensional vector values which is something that you learn in your first course in classic physics in college. They do not behave the same way as electric currents (which you typically will learn about in your second classical physics college course) and thus talking about how they coursing through you body and into the ground is a really shoddy explanation of what is going on.
It's gonna depend on what you train doing and what feels right to you. From an objective standpoint, a locked elbow makes the gun move less when fired, and your body actually moved more with elbows unlocked. Potentially a fluke, but not likely. I've seen people who are great shooters suggest elbow bend, and when I do it, even a little, it makes it harder to hold proper tension on the gun and it doesn't feel as stable. This is apparently not the case for everybody, though as you said, physics explains why that is. I doubt one is superior across the board, but surely no pistol caliber is moving anybody's bodies and shoulders around. Except those videos with the rail thin men and women firing 500s and DEs and such. Really, just do what you're good with and what feels right.
@@ASPextra Maybe with a larger caliber, but even then I doubt it. You'd have to shoot a heavy recoiling gun all the time for that kind of thing to happen. Those of us who lift and do some type of athletic activity as well as work put the elbow joint in a more likely spot for injury doing all that than absorbing weak recoil that spreads across the upper body. The more popular calibers wouldn't do it. But whatever works.
When I learned to shoot locked out elbows was taught as a part of a proper isosceles stance as well as a firm but not tight grip. I broke that habit when i started wearing soft armor for work which prevents you from adopting that posture without fighting the armor. That and a video from Massad Ayoob talking about using as tight a hold as possible did wonders fror my shooting and ability to control recoil. I've found no matter how I'm standing, leaning or kneeling the most important part of me being able to control a handgun is my bottom 3 fingers and my elbows.
John, great video! A slight clarification - I don't think you were incorrect, just maybe slightly imprecise regarding the force path. Even when you bend your elbows, the force still has to transmit down through your whole body to your feet and to the ground via friction. Any force that the gun imparts on your body needs to be resisted by friction at the ground or you would slide backwards. What that bend in your elbow does, however, is rather than providing a rigid path through your bones and joints, it allows your arms to create a softer path for the force to follow and it does it over time rather than instantaneously. The rest of your video follows perfectly from there. Have a great daty!
@@papimaximus95 it's not a theory, it's physics. If one was to do your suggestion, the person would swing backwards - it wouldn't be a wild swing, but it would certainly happen.
@@papimaximus95 No... friction is a friction factor times the normal force. On two feet you have that force split between to feet, so each foot has half of the reaction. On one foot, it's all concentrated on one foot. Mate, I'm trying to be nice here, but you're wrong on this one - look up the concept of a free body diagram. If I don't understand physics, we have a big problem since I have an MS in structural engineering and am a licensed P.E., but I guess what do I know?
@@papimaximus95 I don't know what your point is. The total force is resisted at the ground either way. It's just a matter of whether it's all through one foot or split between two.
Good refresher.
I find when I have locked my elbows I involuntarily anticipate the recoil and everything is low to the left. Every stinking time. The issue worsens as the frame size decreases.
I found the exact same thing. I was shooting low and to the left for months until I finally got some instruction. Bending the elbows a little help a lot. And I did not leave the range with soar elbows! lol
I've experienced the same
Very helpful, I'm headed to the range to focus on that. Thanks!
ASP love the content!
I've always noticed that when I try the "upside down horseshoe" recommended by instructors like Amy 556 and John Lovell, that I get the bottom of my hands coming off the gun a bit like you mentioned. I've never liked that technique. I'll have to try your opposite one.
Absolutelly agree 👍
Same here! Might work for some but yeah my hands came off the bottom of the gun too!
Good reps for dry practice using this 👍🏾👍🏾👍🏾Thank you John
Very good points. As soon as you lock any joints you lose mobility as well as time spent "unlocking" AND you increase potential for inquiry, all of which in a defensive situation can be critical.
I've always been of the opinion that this was the way to go, but I had never actually, conciously, tested it. Very thorough and understandable explanations. Great vid as usual.
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks Throom!
Took my concealed weapons permit class over three months ago in Florida and I am still waiting for my license. Frustrating.
Man that sucks!
Did you have your interview with the Sherrif?
@@greenthumbpatriot3295 no I went to the police department and filled out all the paperwork and fingerprints did the class and certified mailed it to Tallahassee. Nothing yet.
@@David.Anderson awful I’m sorry that’s not right! I hope you get it sooner than later. Here in commiefornia you get it almost within a week or less after the interview and fingerprinting with the Sherrif.
My brother just got his, I’m in the process of getting mine right now.
@@greenthumbpatriot3295 thanks I check on the website it said maybe sometime this month so we’ll see. Good luck out there be safe.
I like Ben Avery's a lot. Awesome shooting range! I have a spot around the corner from there I regularly go to. I moved to Phx about a year ago. Would love to take your class, and meet you, John; Mike from Fieldcraft is another individual. Thanks for your time and content.
Thanks man! Probably going to teach a couple of classes at BA in March in fact.
@@ASPextra Right on brother!
I will keep checking the ASP webpage.
You knew i was going to the range today.... Lol
Thank you John I love these videos you’re helping me with my grouping keep them coming thanks!
Glad to help!
Also if you lock your elbows out, your support hand will slowly start to come off the gun and you having to re-adjust your support hand back on the gun. It might not seem like it at first, but you will notice it if you shoot with your elbows locked out. Bend both elbows!
Mostly because of the decrease in grip strength!
Amazing video
Even with a dummy gun, pointing down range is probably good for people's anxiety
Sigh, why do you suppose they make them?
Thanks for the post! As a new shooter, this is a mistake I've been making. I finally took my MantisX to the range, and my score went way down. It kept saying my wrists or shoulders weren't locked. I went to the RUclipss to see what I could do better, and I think it's exactly as you described. My dry fire is better, but I'm looking forward to another range trip soon.
@@LK-gw6to I've had mine about a month, and I love it. I've invited a couple neighbors over to check it out, and they both really liked it too. I also got to see which neighbor I don't want to go to the range with, and that right there may have made it worth the money. I bought my first shotgun, and I am anxious to try the shotgun app at the range too.
@@LK-gw6to yes, even after I said something! And all of our dogs too! After he got a very low score too, I knew he was all talk. Fortunately we were using his gun at my house, so no ammo around.
Good stuff
Glad you enjoyed!
I can't find anyone to help me to readjust to shooting with severe scoliosis and arthritis. Had to buy an EZ too. Ugh.
For me this makes all the sense in the world. Have tried it both ways and the slight bend makes all the deference. Love the helpful video.
This makes no sense lol
Makes perfect sense of biomechanics.
Thanks, been doing this wrong.
Thanks for this video, exactly what I was looking for in terms of elbow bend clarity. I was debating if I should lock my elbows out, because what I'm finding is that I'm flinching, pushing down when I'm pressing the trigger (from the MantisX analysis) when I'm on the range, but not doing it when I'm dryfiring. Trying to figure out how to stop the flinch/anticipation push down.
First suggestion is to grip the gun with your pinkies!
Honestly one of the better explanations about this and demonstrations about this I’ve seen. I personally feel that grip is not emphasized as much as it should be. Grip is the foundation of shooting. And without a solid foundation your left with a house of cards. Good work John! Keep up the awesome work your doing!
Grip is the master. Sights set the pace. Trigger is the servant.
Thank you for info.
Excellent summary of the body mechanics and structure for shooting... going to my first Scott Jedlinski class in March...
Have fun and tell him I said hi!
@@ASPextra definitely
These are great, quick lessons!
Glad you like them!
Love the content! Looking good, John.
Much appreciated!
There's multiple ways to get the same result, but I'll have to disagree with the elbow thing. The bending I agree with, I don't with having them lower. That give Watch yong lee's finger over the trigger guard video, he's a uspsa gm if that makes reading my defense worth it. Competitors like him are usually at the highest level for a reason. Around the end he showcases that with none of his primary hand's grip fingers on the gun, he can still shoot relatively flat. When you bring your elbows high, your arms are forced to bend in a completely horizontal axis. It's the way our joints are set up. Notice if you watch your gun recoil in slow motion, it goes upwards and makes your arms do a wave as the force goes through them. Then, your arms have to fall back downwards and that takes time. If you don't believe me, go frame by frame using comma and period in RUclips. You also mentioned how the bottom of your hands get pulled away when bringing your elbows high. That's true, but physics tells us that torque is force times perpendicular distance (taking the angle between the force and distance to be 90 degrees hence perpendicular but just to be clear). So if we apply as much force as possible at the top of the gun, we're avoiding a lot of the torque we'd have to deal with before it even travels further down the grip of the gun. It's going to take the path of least resistance, so if we apply enough force at the top of the gun by rotating the elbows and using our hands as a nutcracker of sorts, we eliminate a huge amount of muzzle flip and get a faster return. This, in conjunction with isometric tension in the wrists, and you get an easy to track recoil pattern that's straight up and down. I can have a totally loose grip, and tighten my wrists independently. My hand's grip only serves to keep the gun from slipping. I can grip the gun as hard as I want and still get crazy muzzle flip because my wrists don't work in conjunction with my hands for whatever reason. The rest of the recoil management comes from the wrists moving minimally, and the elbows absorbing a good deal of the force. That's what I've found after being obsessed with being able to shoot flat as possible for the last few months. I understand your idea of applying torque through your pinky. I simply use my hands for grip and grip alone. Also notice that when you bring your left wrist as forward as possible, you're lowering the torque it's being subjected to since the meat of your thumb gets closer to your forearm. Again, there's more than one way to achieve the same goal. But as someone who isn't big or muscular, I've found this to be the easiest.
Remember what I said about size mattering, and I see GM-level shooters using their attributes all the time. They're badass with a gun, and I am all about it, but for instance Rob Leatham slaps the trigger like it stole something from him and can do that because of the grip advantage he has with his size and strength. You and I can't get away with that inefficiency, but he can. Same with the grip of Yong Lee.
So all the rest of what you're saying is flawed on that premise alone.
@@ASPextra You missed the part where I said even with my lack of grip strength and muscle it still nets greater results. Bringing your elbows more in line with the force vector leads to less of a torque on your elbows. No matter what size you are, that's the case. Look at Lena Miculek. Her video on grip focuses on getting as high as possible on the gun with her support hand, again bringing that force vector more in line with the arm and she's not anyone's idea of a massive person.
@@ASPextra The grip with lena miculek video on sig sauer's channel again screams everything I'm trying to say. Using your arms instead of the muscles going into your fingers is far easier for someone without a good grip strength.
No, it doesn't. Feel free to think that way, but the body works the way the body works man. The force vectors on the gun benefit far more from elbows down than out.
This is a video explaining why the grip mechanics favor elbows down, without mentioning elbows because it is about grip force. ruclips.net/video/ypsUsNJ9Z4g/видео.html
I've said this before and I will say it again, your explanation of the physics of firearm recoil is terrible and I would recommend to not continuing including this into your videos. Mechanical forces are one dimensional vector values which is something that you learn in your first course in classic physics in college. They do not behave the same way as electric currents (which you typically will learn about in your second classical physics college course) and thus talking about how they coursing through you body and into the ground is a really shoddy explanation of what is going on.
Hi friend, I have five semesters of calculus and three of physics. My explanations have been vetted by people with physics PhDs.
It's gonna depend on what you train doing and what feels right to you. From an objective standpoint, a locked elbow makes the gun move less when fired, and your body actually moved more with elbows unlocked. Potentially a fluke, but not likely. I've seen people who are great shooters suggest elbow bend, and when I do it, even a little, it makes it harder to hold proper tension on the gun and it doesn't feel as stable. This is apparently not the case for everybody, though as you said, physics explains why that is. I doubt one is superior across the board, but surely no pistol caliber is moving anybody's bodies and shoulders around. Except those videos with the rail thin men and women firing 500s and DEs and such. Really, just do what you're good with and what feels right.
With locked elbows, at some point you’ll likely see damage or pain to the joint.
@@ASPextra Maybe with a larger caliber, but even then I doubt it. You'd have to shoot a heavy recoiling gun all the time for that kind of thing to happen. Those of us who lift and do some type of athletic activity as well as work put the elbow joint in a more likely spot for injury doing all that than absorbing weak recoil that spreads across the upper body. The more popular calibers wouldn't do it. But whatever works.
Oh, age catches up with all of us eventually.
When I learned to shoot locked out elbows was taught as a part of a proper isosceles stance as well as a firm but not tight grip. I broke that habit when i started wearing soft armor for work which prevents you from adopting that posture without fighting the armor. That and a video from Massad Ayoob talking about using as tight a hold as possible did wonders fror my shooting and ability to control recoil. I've found no matter how I'm standing, leaning or kneeling the most important part of me being able to control a handgun is my bottom 3 fingers and my elbows.
John, great video! A slight clarification - I don't think you were incorrect, just maybe slightly imprecise regarding the force path. Even when you bend your elbows, the force still has to transmit down through your whole body to your feet and to the ground via friction. Any force that the gun imparts on your body needs to be resisted by friction at the ground or you would slide backwards.
What that bend in your elbow does, however, is rather than providing a rigid path through your bones and joints, it allows your arms to create a softer path for the force to follow and it does it over time rather than instantaneously. The rest of your video follows perfectly from there. Have a great daty!
@@papimaximus95 it's not a theory, it's physics. If one was to do your suggestion, the person would swing backwards - it wouldn't be a wild swing, but it would certainly happen.
@@papimaximus95 No... friction is a friction factor times the normal force. On two feet you have that force split between to feet, so each foot has half of the reaction. On one foot, it's all concentrated on one foot. Mate, I'm trying to be nice here, but you're wrong on this one - look up the concept of a free body diagram. If I don't understand physics, we have a big problem since I have an MS in structural engineering and am a licensed P.E., but I guess what do I know?
@@papimaximus95 I don't know what your point is. The total force is resisted at the ground either way. It's just a matter of whether it's all through one foot or split between two.
Yeah, I guess sometimes I am not as precise with language as I should be. Have a good one.
@@ASPextra Nah, it only bothers pedantic engineers. You're all good. Keep fightin' the good fight!
Your stance is lausey
lol watch todays video.