It's a whip bow. You can google search the term and see a description, the Maori were known to use them and called them "Kotaha". The illustration is closer to reality than the prototypes Tod has made, as they were of a similar length to the arrow/spear and were used 2 handed in a side-whipping motion across the body, a little bit like swinging a baseball bat would be the closest modern description i could think of. Larger ones, like this, would have the back end stuck in the ground with the spear point towards the enemy and be yanked out and cast forward by the baseball bat-style swing with both hands.
Time for me to go searching, but thank you so much for this lead; really appreciated. I have now seen an illustration and the immediate thought is how did Mariano see a Maori weapon? Of course he couldn't but my goodness they are close
I have seen a pictures is an "all string" type used in the Pacific. Same knot on the shaft with a half twist around the spear and a finger or thumb loop to secure it to the throwers hand.
I had the same thought. A kotaha (I have heard them referred to as sling-spears) would explain the longer throwing arm in the Mariano illustration Tod showed. Furthermore, as you stated, it would also explain the longer tail on the projectile.
Best thing about this channel is Tod feels like the kinda bloke you could go down the pub with have a pint and real good chit-chat about history and life.
@@tods_workshop could you show or explain it a bit. I wouldn't mind trying in the back yard. I love your channel. I especially have enjoyed the plumbata and war dart videos. I've always had an interest in the javelin armed troops. The peltast, the Kern, the velites. I've always wondered just how effective they were. They must have made some contribution, since they were used from the peltasts in the Peloponnesian war to the Kern in the 16th century. Thank you for your content.
I've got a hypothesis regarding the placement of the fletching and the size of the shaft. Perhaps it was to proper scale and the throwing stick is intended to be 2 handed and that the rear end of the dart gets stuck into the ground to hold it, you then attach the loop of the string and then swing it over your shoulder with great leverage.
Exactly what I was thinking. The manuscript even looks like it is perched at the perfect angle when stuck in the ground. I took a look at the actual source from the british museum and many of the illustrations are siege weapons. Deploying these darts in the way you describe makes perfect sense.
Also they could potentially have many all lined up in the ground the thrower shoots it steps back and to the side ready for the loader to quickly attach the string
The fletchings being so far up the shaft could indicate that the dart is meant to be stuck into the ground to be launched. The Maori had a similar spear sling combination called a Kopere or Kotaha. I'll just add that I know nothing about Maori warfare I just came across a drawing when researching the Kestros. The drawing seemed to depict a longer spear and a two handed sling.
Interesting, I just looked up the Maori Kotaha and Kopere and it looks much closer to the original illustration than what Tod made. That is the danger of assumptions and reinterpretation I suppose.
Fascinating, I thought I knew enough about Maori culture I would have heard of it, but somehow it passed me by. However I am not 100% convinced that is reason - to make something 'fly' well you want the center of mass only somewhat in front of the center of pressure, arrow generally put all the drag right at the back and the 'heavy' arrow head at the front, but these spear could be made longer and heavier - so more effective on the target without harming their utility - as you have all that mechanical advantage on the throw, so can still launch a much more deadly heavier shaft a good long way, but only if you don't put all that extra mass for the harder hit right at the front with fletches right at the back - it will just be too front heavy and make the whole thing nosedive and/or flip end over end - so you bring the center of mass back or pressure forward relative to each other till its about right by moving the fletchings forward, or making the tail longer.
@@foldionepapyrus3441 Perhaps gravity plays a part, it could be designed to be used from high ground and so the fletchings being farther up the shaft wouldn't make as much difference.
Irish man - thanks. I have heard about these before but never seen any drawings or pictures, but now I have a name to put with the idea the Internet has turned up some very interesting pictures. More food for thought
Amazing! When I saw your image of this, I never would have imagined that something so simple could work so well! I'm kind of amazed that nobody has thought of this arrangement before (that I know of)!
Hey Tod, why not make an additional dart with the fletching at the very end and you then try to shot that one the same way? Maybe that could give a hint why the fletching is in the middle and not at the end.
My brother who's sadly passed away use to make these throwing sticks back in the late 70s out of garden canes with cardboard flights. He use to call them French arrows,wow did they go far. Brings back lovely memories. Thank you
If the picture didn't show the dart pointing up I'd wonder if it was a staff sling and rather than throwing it like a dart maybe the dart hung down and the bit beyond the fletchings and friction from the loop dictated where on the arc it released? More like a trebuchet sling release action
We used to make these when i was a kid, we called then French arrow’s. I found then best, most consistent method of throwing them was to use more of a bowling action than a throw, or as if you were throwing a grenade, try to keep your arm straighter, raise your front leg and as you bring your leg down use that to generate the power through your body with your arm straight and go for a high release point to get a good arc on the throw.
These things are fascinating. This, along with your last weird weapons video has really warmed me up to the concept of war darts (which I had kind of glossed over previously), for which I am very grateful.
They can double as letter openers in everyday life. They surely are beautiful pieces to have on one's desk. Especially if your office/study has an old style furniture.
I made something similar as a kid, based on a book I had, the American Boy's Handybook (which I still have on my shelf.) I used a fiberglass rod from a kid's bike flag (they were popular in the 70s--I don't know why). I put a string on the end of the rod, tied a loop at the end of the string. I made darts with a notch behind the warhead, and fletched them with pine twigs bristling with needles. I held the rod in one hand, put the loop into the notch of the dart, and could pull the darts against the flex of the fiberglass rod and hurl my darts quite a ways, 40-50M.
Something similar was used by children up to the 1960's, my elder brother told me about arrows propelled by string wrapped around the shaft making them spin.
This is baton de commandement, an ancient thrower that predates the atlatl. You need not to put a groove around the shaft. Just a little notch, and it will release more cleanly. A lighter more flexible shaft helps quite a bit. Put a little spin into it like a top, but it needs to be in the same direction as the fletchings. The only reason for flechings in the middle is either an error or an attempt to use the lift to make them fly further. I made one that threw 100+ meters easily.
Tod, this reminds me of a similar thing I read about in a book many years ago. I distinctly remember that they described the string as being a flat leather piece that got wrapped around the shaft a few times in order to give the dart rotation for stabilisation. Maybe you could try that out. Oh, btw: great content as always, thank you so much 🙂
The spin can be from the head pushing through a small breeze. The extra length in the back is for balancing, if the tail was cut you could only tie the string at the very edge and have the latter effect of the dart shooting straight up.
When I was a kid we used to make dutch arrows using 5 foot bamboo shafts and cornflake-packet flights at the rear. We used a chord with a knot at the end and a small notch just in front of the flights. The chord reached from there to the head which was usually a six inch nail strung and glued in place. They went what seemed like miles and we used to be quite accurate after lots of practice.
Looking at the manuscript image at 3:01, there does not appear to be a wooden shaft between the head and the feathers. It looks much thinner, like the metal shaft on a Roman Pilum.
I grew up in South London in the 50s-60s, our version of that was called a Dutch arrow (no idea why). We would usually steal some stoutish canes from somebody's pea patch in the allotments, cut the cane to around 2'0-2'6", whip a 3" nail into the thinner end and then split the back end with a penknife down to the first knuckle, we would cut squares of cereal packet and fold it to make a 4 vaned flight then just tie off the splits with a little string. As 10 or 11 year olds we could easily throw those a good 50 paces and sometimes more, we would take a handful to the local park and compete either for distance or aiming at a piece of cardboard on the ground. One of our 'kid's toys would easily stick well into a tree at a few paces. At short distances like a target on a tree we would often throw sidearm but for distance overarm. The launch method was with a knotted string and no stick, I usually put a loop in the string so that it slipped over my pinky and gauged the string so that the knot was just below the flight and held the arrow just above the nail. After seeing this video, I am thinking of making a couple to play with in my garden.
Two things that you might find of interest Todd. The idea behind the dart reminds me of the arrow whip, similar release but on a arrow. The kern warriors used the Irish dart release but I heard abt those off my grandad, he also told me abt a 2 an half foot dart with a 8 inch spike with arrow head tip. The one end of dart kept the bulk of wood on one end, an tapered to a tip. At the tip abt inch half a cord was tied into a loop, the dart point faced downward. To release the dart, its similar to a staff sling but loop just slips over the neck an no pouch attachment. These darts were also called Romany war darts apparently
interesting Tod, my dad used to make me a toy out of a piece of dowel around 1'' thick and around 14" long, with 4 flight made of ice cream container on one end and a grove just below the fights. didn't have a stick attached to the cord, just a cord with a knot and you just wrapped it around your little finger till it was tight. thanks Tod it took me back:)
We used to make these as kids out of canes about a meter long. We found a very shallow groove on the back of the shaft about two inches below the fletching with the fletching at the end and no stick, just trap the knot and have about 400mm+ of free string with the rest wrapped around your hand.We could clear the entire width of a cricket ground with a bit of grunt.
Todd, one thing that would help eliminate as many variables as possible is the also the easiest... Carry a water bucket with you and give the dart heads a quick swish or two to eliminate the dirt and grass from the barbs. Even a little more dirt on one side will skew the flight. Then you'll know that when you get a wobbly one, it's not the dart.
Put a knot at the end of the rope, then cut a notch at the end of the dart. Place the cord in the notch with the knot on top. I've thrown this way. It takes a bit, but it works.
Presumably the reason why some of the throws were rotating was because the projectile is quite unstable due to the fletching not being right at the rear. Slight inconsistencies from the thrower will amplify any oscillation in the end of the shaft, and there's nothing back there to stabilise that movement other than the shaft itself
This brought back a childhood memory, long, long before the internet so I do not have a clue where I learnt about it, probably TV. I made a stick with a string on it to throw an arrow. It went a really long way. I did not have a knot, I just wrapped the string around the arrow overlapping self for a turn or two then a slow spiral down the rest of the arrow.
Hi Tod, Couple of thoughts: Your 17thC Stiletto makes a great pointer for presentations No1. I've been fascinated by the woomera having grown up in Australia which is another leverage tool for throwing spears & long arrows. Same for the Atlatl, which also has the definition of a tool that uses leverage to achieve greater velocity in dart or javelin-throwing. Interesting that darts were so common to throw but history seems to have forgotten them. With the spear throwers the throwing device stays with the thrower & I'm wondering if your drawing is of a two part dart with the back piece beyond the fletching's designed to release the dart and stay with the thrower. This would make your throwing device two pieces of wood connected by a cord. One piece goes in your hand and the other goes into the end of an arrow which has a female receptor for the male end of the top stick. This would explain your groove halfway up the arrow (where the two piece connect). Then a troop of dart throwers could all throw from a uniform stack of shorter arrows designed to carry a javelin punch. And one last thought. If the darts are sometimes inclined to spin (like a bullet in a riffled barrel), could you not fletch the arrow with the feathers spiralling the shaft? This might propel the flight more. Look forward to your next discovery on this & Plumbatas which I want set of once perfected. N
My first impression of that picture was that the string was tied in a loose noose around the bottom of the dart and you kept a grip in front of the fletching and then I saw you try that and the results that followed. After watching the whole video I have to ask, have you tried a more Atlatl styled hold with your hand behind the fletching, string around the end of the dart and the pulled forward to your hand ( I hope I get my meaning across)? Still interesting video and best of luck with the darts :-)
We threw “French arrows” as kids. A string with a knot in one end, loop the string around so that it sits behind the knot, very close to the back. Hold the other end of the string (wrapped around the fist) near the head. As a young teenager we could throw a broom handle half the length of a football pitch. The trick was to throw at roughly 45deg and whip the arm down fast and forward.
With a normal string launched throwing dart/arrow, I'd intentionally twist the string 90-180 degrees around the dart body to give it spin stabilisation. We used to used the bulge of the knots on bamboo canes to hold the string, but never used an additional throwing stick, just the string. All these throwing dart vids are reminding of summer hols where everyone was launching arrows/darts on the the back field. No need to target anything, just launch darts back & forth, until someone was injured. 😂
The Ancient Greeks used a throwing thong called an Ankyle with a javelin. Wrapped a couple of times round the shaft it detaches when thrown imparting a spin to stabilise and extend the range. I suspect that due to the position you have the string this sometimes happens with the darts, but the fetchings are stopping the darts from spinning
I think you are right with the atlatl comparison. The string loops along the shaft round the non pointy end, ( notch in base needed?) back to throwing stick. Hence the long string in the manuscript.
I believe the reason it is up the shaft is no different from throwing a spear. The closer you can get to the center of gravity, the better. I might even try in front of the fletching just to see what happens.
An idea about mid-fletching. With whip bows, you hold the arrow/dart in the hand before shooting(loosing?), which probably allows for a better release. Also reminds me of lawn darts where you can really impart a large amount of force with a handhold like that. As whip bows are significantly cheaper and easier to construct, it's not hard to understand why they would still be around, but not seen highly and therefore preserved.
Maybe the odd fletching placement was meant so that the enemy couldn't throw it back, kind of like the short arrows that had to be loosed from a bow using grooved stick, a solenarion I think they were called.
Fascinating video. And I appreciate your effort, innovation and narration! One thing, though. The darts don't seem to have much weight in terms of being lethal against armor. Or even unprotected horse flanks.
I have a theory that perhaps our manuscript writer had heard of and/or seen both throwing strings and atlatls and was perhaps trying to combine them, create a sort of "best of both" solution. Given that this appears to be a one off reference, I think it may have been Renaissance tacticool, a bright idea that wasn't really practical or useful, like sword-pistols, knuckle duster revolvers, or pistol bayonets.
@@iangreenhalgh9280 It was also being used in Australia. Its such a simple idea I would find it hard to believe nobody in Europe had not played with the idea here and there over the centuries
@@iangreenhalgh9280 The atlatl isn't American. It's been used all over the world for tens of thousands of years and the earliest physical example of an atlatl we have is from France and is about 17,500 years old. It wasn't widely in use in the 1400s but it's not impossible that this weapons and civil engineer buff had heard of it.
To work out the "why!?!" maybe try making some similiar darts, one without the fletching, one with the fletching at the end, one with the "tail" cut off - and see which work better.
So, you've got a bunch of various war darts, and you've got your own trebuchet... How far do you think you think you'd be able to lob a bundle of darts like these, and what spread would they have?
Half a century ago I made these as a child and I got deadly accurate with it, but I used it all the time. I got rid of the hand stick and used full string and had my fletching at the 3/4 point if I remember right. The throw is the key. It is a style. Each time you throw follow through and hold it exactly the same, and I would whip my right leg and hip as I threw it greatly increasing power. I watched a vintage film(that was old in the 70's) and the warrior had the whole throwing handle (the string)made of wood and it had a hook like shape carved in to recieve the arrow into the handle. The arrow lay in a shallow bed of about half the arrow length. When launched correctly, by the native man in the footage film it easily killed the deer he aimed at. I never tried to hunt with it, but I could make my arrows disappear in the far away sky even as a child. I too found old references drawn in survival manuals that were absolutely wrong as if they wanted the recreator to fail Hope this helps.
Enjoyed That mate. I wonder if the back end of the shaft is acting as a weighted counter balance when throwing? I think it's preventing the dart tumbling around the pivot point of the string. Remember an atlatl is hooked into the end of the shaft not wrapped around it so the release is entirely different mechanically. It would also be interesting to see one of your war darts with end fletchings thrown with this launcher. If it's unstable, it might explain placing the fletching where it is....
This looks quite similar to the mesoamerican atlatl, but in that case they used a wooden concave stick to propel the dart, instead of a string. These look so fun to throw, I'd love to try them someday.
When we were kids we use to make throwing arrows from a garden cane and cardboard flights using a string with a knot in it to throw them and they use to go 3 parts the way over the cricket pitch
This is quite an interesting design. I learned about thong-thrown arrows years ago from a book on primitive skills, but there it works best if the thong is between the head and the fletchings and the hand is near the head.
(in the middle of typing you did what i was wandering and figured something out) String in the middle applies the force close to the center of mass. String at the back you need to align the force with the projectile and your aim. Its why atlattle (don't know the spelling) throwing stick needs a specific springinessand why olimpic Javelin is held in the middle
Tod not sure if you’ve seen it, but the current Lego 3 in 1 castle set comes with a working trebuchet! And is actually powered by a counter weight not a spring. Well worth a look
This Videos about this Darts inspired me to adapt them for Larp and they work great. The Thong doubles the throwing distance (from my larp safe models with 125g).
I think the length of the throwing stick in the illustration is correct, and yes used as a two handed weapon. The power and distance ud gain would be remarkable but it would certainly take some figuring on how to effectively use it
My Hypothesis why the fletchings are so far forward: The length behind the flething might be used to wrap a longer string in a spiral. It is fastened with the knot/bead techique to the end of the shaft and then spun in spiral (maybe 4-5 windings) around the shaft until it nearly reaches the flechings. This might allow you to throw it similarly as if the string was attached directly behind the fletchings while giving the dart a stronger spin and maybe more time for acceleration.
The image of 50-80 skilled warriors highly proficient in the use of these, ambushing a mounted patrol from the cover of the tree line would be a terrifying sight to behold. I may have to try my hand at making these, or incorporate them into some of my writing at the least
I remember as a kid (1950's) we used garden canes about 3 ft long fletched at the end, just a length of string with a knot tied just under the fletching's. It may be rose tinted specs but I'm sure we were heaving them half the length of the local football pitch.
I wonder if this was a re-imagining of the much smaller Kestros (Greek war sling dart). They would have certainly had that technology exposed to them in their history, so they may have been attempting to show or describe it from previous records?
Two questions: Have you considered the possibility that the cord is attached to the dart and not the throwing stick? Much like the finger loop concept, but the throwing stick is replacing your finger for added mechanical advantage in the throw. That would make it more like an atlatl. Have you considered the possibility that the cord attaches to the dart at the center of gravity? That would put the fletching forward of the COG, but the extended shaft behind could stabilize the flight similar to a Congreve rocket.
@@Matt_Alaric Sorry pal, can you explain that, can you give me an example of a European throwing weapon that you can't think wouldn't be more effective than those. bit puzzled.
If it is a two hand sling throwing a javelin the fletching might be moved to be able to stab the back in to the ground, making for longer reach and faster "reload"
Fletching in the middle to have the string attachment point adjustable. Darts would likely not be exactly the same, neither would the throwing stick or string or even the thrower. The fletching did seem to work fine. I did not understand why such a short throwing stick.
Reverse enginewe it: Take the fletching the way you think would be optimal, then see whether there's any disadvantage and thus reason for the middle fletching.
Perhaps it's illustrating a gunpowder weapon. The barrel is held away from the user (perhaps dangled over a wall), either because such things had a tendency to blow up or to evade enemy fire, as a kind of early prototype for the periscope rifle (that was just waiting for someone to invent the periscope... and rifling).
Wild idea: The dart just really short and the extension at the end is part of the throwing mechanism. It slides into the back of the dart and makes the part you hold look like a nunchuck with a long cord. It would at least increase the reload speed.
We used to make then when I was a kid (12~13) up in Durham. The (cardboard) fletchings were always at the end and the arrowpoints were cut-down nails The shafts were bamboo.. We could get pretty good accuracy throwing them at targets at about 20 yards. I don't know how we learnt to make then, but all the lads were doing it. I found the same in Yorkshire when we moved there at age 13, so maybe it was a northern thing?
I think what's needed is more of an atl-atl, except it needs to 'attach' directly onto the head, there's no need for the string. think of two hooks on the 'atl-atl' grabs the head instead of the shaft. You'll have much more consistent throws, it's just a case of fine-tuning the hook length so the bolt releases at the right moment without being obstructed.
It looks to me like the one that went into "flat spin" was unique in that you had the blades of the head oriented vertically instead of horizontally which would encourage spinning.
Interesting. As a Norwegian I have speculated whether this system was known to Nordic people in Middle Ages - I’ve even made a few javelins like these my self a while back. However, the lack of sources made me exclude them from my reenactment kit. So my question is were in the sagas they are mentioned? It would be fun to bring them to an event knowing a little more about their history in Scandinavia. Meanwhile, keep up the great work.
Put a sleeve on the bottom of the throwing stick that wraps around your hand.This way it's easier to Control the alignment of your dart and give it a bit more momentum. Also you don't lose your stick by throwing the dart
A suggestion to increase consistency, start with the dart in the throwing position ie. hold your arm back with the dart at the angle you want to release it
When i saw it for first time i thought that principal is same as previous darts. String is attached to arrow and stick have same purpose as finger. And the stick allow to have greater reach for release. You have bigger reach and you release from bigger hight.
The fact that it split a branch is amazing for just a piece of wood, some goose feathers and a pointy thing at the end tossed using a string and a stick. Making a wild guess but did they have hand cannons at that time? I've seen old an old drawing/tapestry showing a cannon shooting what look like a giant arrow. Maybe the string is a secondary way of loosing this and the primary idea is to stuff it down a barrel?
Yes, they did have cannons at that time but no, I don’t think you could fire one of these out of a cannon. A cannon works like this: you have burning powder at the rear end and the only way it can go is forward. Because the ball is very close in diameter to the barrel, none of the explosion is wasted. With a dart like this, I don’t think it could withstand the gunpowder and it wouldn’t go into the barrel too well with fletching. Atleast a big part of the energy would be wasted.
@@josku5 I said hand cannon. Essentially an early type of musket what you touched a red hot wire or slow match to. As for a full sized cannon firing arrows, look up "pot-de-fer" on Wikipedia. That's what I was referring to. Maybe the artist thought you could push the arrow down to the fletchings and fire it from a hand cannon/early matchlock as they wouldn't have had much of an understanding when it came to firearms and recoil. As I said it's a wild guess though it would explain the fletchings going half way down the shaft. Sorry if I sound a bit short tempered, I had a much longer post with a link to the Wikipedia page in it however the YT censor bot seems to be nuking any post I make with an external link. Just one more reason for me to use odysee I guess.
If you think about the knot placement as simply an extension of your hand and arm (which... is technically what it is), the center placement makes more sense. If you watch an olympian throw a javelin, their hand is about 2/3 of the way back, very similar to where the knot is on this. In terms of the fletching, I can only imagine that is so the feathers don't get caught on the string when throwing, while still providing reasonable flight stabilization.
whipping darts were common in europe and also Polynesia.. the maori also had long range ones that are stuck into the ground.. some were propelled with two people at once and used a larger dart like a spear
Cut a half moon notch on one side instead of right around. Tie a loop in the string and hook it over. Faster to load and releases flat. The fletch is half way down to stop the tip from elevating at release.
@Tod's Workshop there is a picture online somewhere of page 194 of "the american boy's handbook" describing the technique of throwing a dart using a whip bow. It seems close to the illustration you showed in the video.
Having made and thrown 'Dutch Arrows' for years as a kid I feel your pain. Every 4th or 5th one would fly weird. I think the launching notch should be infront of the fletching though, maybe the artist made a mistake?
@@tods_workshop This is why we love your channel....you just take a generally accepted idea then experiment the shit out of it :) I guess the ancients were exactly the same .
When I was alot younger, I was shown how to make something similar except that the cord end was a strip of flat leather that wrapped flat around the shafts.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
It's a whip bow. You can google search the term and see a description, the Maori were known to use them and called them "Kotaha". The illustration is closer to reality than the prototypes Tod has made, as they were of a similar length to the arrow/spear and were used 2 handed in a side-whipping motion across the body, a little bit like swinging a baseball bat would be the closest modern description i could think of.
Larger ones, like this, would have the back end stuck in the ground with the spear point towards the enemy and be yanked out and cast forward by the baseball bat-style swing with both hands.
Time for me to go searching, but thank you so much for this lead; really appreciated. I have now seen an illustration and the immediate thought is how did Mariano see a Maori weapon? Of course he couldn't but my goodness they are close
@@tods_workshop I think it's amazing how much information one can crowd-source without even trying.
I though Maori spear whips were entirely rope, although this does look like a two handed sling.
I have seen a pictures is an "all string" type used in the Pacific. Same knot on the shaft with a half twist around the spear and a finger or thumb loop to secure it to the throwers hand.
I had the same thought. A kotaha (I have heard them referred to as sling-spears) would explain the longer throwing arm in the Mariano illustration Tod showed. Furthermore, as you stated, it would also explain the longer tail on the projectile.
Best thing about this channel is Tod feels like the kinda bloke you could go down the pub with have a pint and real good chit-chat about history and life.
That knot or bead self-locking release mechnism is very interesting!
Cosmas - it is interesting and no shame if you haven't seen it before and it certainly works
@@tods_workshop could you show or explain it a bit. I wouldn't mind trying in the back yard. I love your channel. I especially have enjoyed the plumbata and war dart videos. I've always had an interest in the javelin armed troops. The peltast, the Kern, the velites. I've always wondered just how effective they were. They must have made some contribution, since they were used from the peltasts in the Peloponnesian war to the Kern in the 16th century. Thank you for your content.
@L V a l u e imagine all the old things you don't know..
@@sliceofbread2611 And imagine the rest of us not being pr*cks about it.
@L V a l u e No need to be an arse about it mate.
The sound that Tod does when throwing the darts sound a lot like Age of Empires sound effects.
I think that’s where they found him
Someone should make a mod that only uses sounds from Tod
Turin - sounds like a middle aged guy exerting himself.....
I now want someone to edit AoE 2 trebuchet noises over Tod's trebuchet.
@@tods_workshop as a middle aged guy, I can confirm this.
I've got a hypothesis regarding the placement of the fletching and the size of the shaft. Perhaps it was to proper scale and the throwing stick is intended to be 2 handed and that the rear end of the dart gets stuck into the ground to hold it, you then attach the loop of the string and then swing it over your shoulder with great leverage.
Pretty much exactly what I wrote too maybe a two person weapon for efficiency too a loader and launcher.
Exactly what I was thinking. The manuscript even looks like it is perched at the perfect angle when stuck in the ground. I took a look at the actual source from the british museum and many of the illustrations are siege weapons. Deploying these darts in the way you describe makes perfect sense.
Also they could potentially have many all lined up in the ground the thrower shoots it steps back and to the side ready for the loader to quickly attach the string
I wanna see this, it sounds very interesting!
Sounds like a recipe to spear yourself in the back ^.^
I hope Todd wears some type of armour if he decides to try it out.
The fletchings being so far up the shaft could indicate that the dart is meant to be stuck into the ground to be launched. The Maori had a similar spear sling combination called a Kopere or Kotaha. I'll just add that I know nothing about Maori warfare I just came across a drawing when researching the Kestros. The drawing seemed to depict a longer spear and a two handed sling.
Yeah I was thinking that! :)
Interesting, I just looked up the Maori Kotaha and Kopere and it looks much closer to the original illustration than what Tod made. That is the danger of assumptions and reinterpretation I suppose.
Fascinating, I thought I knew enough about Maori culture I would have heard of it, but somehow it passed me by.
However I am not 100% convinced that is reason - to make something 'fly' well you want the center of mass only somewhat in front of the center of pressure, arrow generally put all the drag right at the back and the 'heavy' arrow head at the front, but these spear could be made longer and heavier - so more effective on the target without harming their utility - as you have all that mechanical advantage on the throw, so can still launch a much more deadly heavier shaft a good long way, but only if you don't put all that extra mass for the harder hit right at the front with fletches right at the back - it will just be too front heavy and make the whole thing nosedive and/or flip end over end - so you bring the center of mass back or pressure forward relative to each other till its about right by moving the fletchings forward, or making the tail longer.
@@foldionepapyrus3441 Perhaps gravity plays a part, it could be designed to be used from high ground and so the fletchings being farther up the shaft wouldn't make as much difference.
Irish man - thanks. I have heard about these before but never seen any drawings or pictures, but now I have a name to put with the idea the Internet has turned up some very interesting pictures. More food for thought
Amazing! When I saw your image of this, I never would have imagined that something so simple could work so well! I'm kind of amazed that nobody has thought of this arrangement before (that I know of)!
Thanks Matt,
it is interesting indeed but also infuriating and more playing and thinking required
Hey Tod, why not make an additional dart with the fletching at the very end and you then try to shot that one the same way? Maybe that could give a hint why the fletching is in the middle and not at the end.
Was going to suggest this same thing
i had that thought too
Yes. Also, could it work differently without the groove?
Felix Imler made a smaller version of what you suggested. Made some myself and they worked really well.
ruclips.net/video/_16mys_P95Y/видео.html
Or maybe one with a much shorter shaft behind the fletching (just enough for the knot and a bit of slide). Proportions might be very off.
Wow! It split that branch clear in half! Amazing. The amount of kinetic energy delivered must have been catastrophic.
Javelins are my prefered weapons (after swords),so I'm really digging all that Plubmata/darts/javelins you are doing.
My brother who's sadly passed away use to make these throwing sticks back in the late 70s out of garden canes with cardboard flights. He use to call them French arrows,wow did they go far. Brings back lovely memories. Thank you
The drawing reminds me more of a staff sling than an atlatl.
very much so and in fact I have a part two coming before too long where this is discussed
If the picture didn't show the dart pointing up I'd wonder if it was a staff sling and rather than throwing it like a dart maybe the dart hung down and the bit beyond the fletchings and friction from the loop dictated where on the arc it released? More like a trebuchet sling release action
We used to make these when i was a kid, we called then French arrow’s. I found then best, most consistent method of throwing them was to use more of a bowling action than a throw, or as if you were throwing a grenade, try to keep your arm straighter, raise your front leg and as you bring your leg down use that to generate the power through your body with your arm straight and go for a high release point to get a good arc on the throw.
I bet people (and me) would pay good money for a manuscripts of tod's making, full of all these things he build, tried out and learned about by using.
I think youtube videos are the modern manuscript.
@@crazyredwizard a valid point.
Yes! "Tod's Book"
@@shinobi-no-bueno The Book of Tod
These things are fascinating. This, along with your last weird weapons video has really warmed me up to the concept of war darts (which I had kind of glossed over previously), for which I am very grateful.
I love the detail of Tod pointing things out with one of his stilettos xD
A bit of product placement maybe lol. Mind you, they are very nice things I have to admit. I really like mine.
@@zednotzee7 i have one myself and i must agree
Better than using one of his bollocks I suppose.
@@benholroyd5221 cheeky. I like it
They can double as letter openers in everyday life. They surely are beautiful pieces to have on one's desk. Especially if your office/study has an old style furniture.
Love your content todd. I like the quick pace of backstory ahead of testing the tangible item. You clearly do fabulous work and make great videos.
Thanks
Todd here with Todd's tiny tossable tines, intended to tag targets to 200 treads!
I made something similar as a kid, based on a book I had, the American Boy's Handybook (which I still have on my shelf.) I used a fiberglass rod from a kid's bike flag (they were popular in the 70s--I don't know why). I put a string on the end of the rod, tied a loop at the end of the string. I made darts with a notch behind the warhead, and fletched them with pine twigs bristling with needles. I held the rod in one hand, put the loop into the notch of the dart, and could pull the darts against the flex of the fiberglass rod and hurl my darts quite a ways, 40-50M.
Something similar was used by children up to the 1960's, my elder brother told me about arrows propelled by string wrapped around the shaft making them spin.
This is baton de commandement, an ancient thrower that predates the atlatl. You need not to put a groove around the shaft. Just a little notch, and it will release more cleanly. A lighter more flexible shaft helps quite a bit. Put a little spin into it like a top, but it needs to be in the same direction as the fletchings. The only reason for flechings in the middle is either an error or an attempt to use the lift to make them fly further. I made one that threw 100+ meters easily.
Or maybe the back end is meant to be stuck in the ground like a Kopere.
Something like these would make a really fun addition to the tod cutler catalogue
Tod, this reminds me of a similar thing I read about in a book many years ago. I distinctly remember that they described the string as being a flat leather piece that got wrapped around the shaft a few times in order to give the dart rotation for stabilisation. Maybe you could try that out. Oh, btw: great content as always, thank you so much 🙂
Amentum or .....(rats forgot the name) but that works without fletchings but adds spin, with fletchings it spins the shaft and causes massive drag
The spin can be from the head pushing through a small breeze. The extra length in the back is for balancing, if the tail was cut you could only tie the string at the very edge and have the latter effect of the dart shooting straight up.
When I was a kid we used to make dutch arrows using 5 foot bamboo shafts and cornflake-packet flights at the rear. We used a chord with a knot at the end and a small notch just in front of the flights. The chord reached from there to the head which was usually a six inch nail strung and glued in place. They went what seemed like miles and we used to be quite accurate after lots of practice.
Looking at the manuscript image at 3:01, there does not appear to be a wooden shaft between the head and the feathers. It looks much thinner, like the metal shaft on a Roman Pilum.
all i see here is a thick short pilum with a groove in the middle for the rope. I can't see any fletching
I agree but as I have weight up front I figured the exact layout didn't matter too much
It could be that the length behind the fetching was there to help counter balance a heavier steel head and shaft.
Or it could be that the dart and throwing shaft are both spear length making the shaft look thinner in comparison
I grew up in South London in the 50s-60s, our version of that was called a Dutch arrow (no idea why). We would usually steal some stoutish canes from somebody's pea patch in the allotments, cut the cane to around 2'0-2'6", whip a 3" nail into the thinner end and then split the back end with a penknife down to the first knuckle, we would cut squares of cereal packet and fold it to make a 4 vaned flight then just tie off the splits with a little string.
As 10 or 11 year olds we could easily throw those a good 50 paces and sometimes more, we would take a handful to the local park and compete either for distance or aiming at a piece of cardboard on the ground. One of our 'kid's toys would easily stick well into a tree at a few paces. At short distances like a target on a tree we would often throw sidearm but for distance overarm.
The launch method was with a knotted string and no stick, I usually put a loop in the string so that it slipped over my pinky and gauged the string so that the knot was just below the flight and held the arrow just above the nail.
After seeing this video, I am thinking of making a couple to play with in my garden.
Two things that you might find of interest Todd. The idea behind the dart reminds me of the arrow whip, similar release but on a arrow. The kern warriors used the Irish dart release but I heard abt those off my grandad, he also told me abt a 2 an half foot dart with a 8 inch spike with arrow head tip. The one end of dart kept the bulk of wood on one end, an tapered to a tip. At the tip abt inch half a cord was tied into a loop, the dart point faced downward. To release the dart, its similar to a staff sling but loop just slips over the neck an no pouch attachment. These darts were also called Romany war darts apparently
interesting Tod, my dad used to make me a toy out of a piece of dowel around 1'' thick and around 14" long, with 4 flight made of ice cream container on one end and a grove just below the fights. didn't have a stick attached to the cord, just a cord with a knot and you just wrapped it around your little finger till it was tight. thanks Tod it took me back:)
We used to make these as kids out of canes about a meter long. We found a very shallow groove on the back of the shaft about two inches below the fletching with the fletching at the end and no stick, just trap the knot and have about 400mm+ of free string with the rest wrapped around your hand.We could clear the entire width of a cricket ground with a bit of grunt.
Todd, one thing that would help eliminate as many variables as possible is the also the easiest... Carry a water bucket with you and give the dart heads a quick swish or two to eliminate the dirt and grass from the barbs. Even a little more dirt on one side will skew the flight. Then you'll know that when you get a wobbly one, it's not the dart.
True
He split the one! Really shows what war darts were capable of. I want to say Gascon light cavalry utilized "winged javelins" in Charlemagne's Day.
Put a knot at the end of the rope, then cut a notch at the end of the dart. Place the cord in the notch with the knot on top. I've thrown this way. It takes a bit, but it works.
Presumably the reason why some of the throws were rotating was because the projectile is quite unstable due to the fletching not being right at the rear. Slight inconsistencies from the thrower will amplify any oscillation in the end of the shaft, and there's nothing back there to stabilise that movement other than the shaft itself
This brought back a childhood memory, long, long before the internet so I do not have a clue where I learnt about it, probably TV. I made a stick with a string on it to throw an arrow. It went a really long way. I did not have a knot, I just wrapped the string around the arrow overlapping self for a turn or two then a slow spiral down the rest of the arrow.
Hi Tod,
Couple of thoughts:
Your 17thC Stiletto makes a great pointer for presentations No1.
I've been fascinated by the woomera having grown up in Australia which is another leverage tool for throwing spears & long arrows. Same for the Atlatl, which also has the definition of a tool that uses leverage to achieve greater velocity in dart or javelin-throwing. Interesting that darts were so common to throw but history seems to have forgotten them.
With the spear throwers the throwing device stays with the thrower & I'm wondering if your drawing is of a two part dart with the back piece beyond the fletching's designed to release the dart and stay with the thrower.
This would make your throwing device two pieces of wood connected by a cord. One piece goes in your hand and the other goes into the end of an arrow which has a female receptor for the male end of the top stick.
This would explain your groove halfway up the arrow (where the two piece connect). Then a troop of dart throwers could all throw from a uniform stack of shorter arrows designed to carry a javelin punch.
And one last thought.
If the darts are sometimes inclined to spin (like a bullet in a riffled barrel), could you not fletch the arrow with the feathers spiralling the shaft? This might propel the flight more.
Look forward to your next discovery on this & Plumbatas which I want set of once perfected.
N
My first impression of that picture was that the string was tied in a loose noose around the bottom of the dart and you kept a grip in front of the fletching and then I saw you try that and the results that followed.
After watching the whole video I have to ask, have you tried a more Atlatl styled hold with your hand behind the fletching, string around the end of the dart and the pulled forward to your hand ( I hope I get my meaning across)?
Still interesting video and best of luck with the darts :-)
That is pretty much how I throw it
We threw “French arrows” as kids. A string with a knot in one end, loop the string around so that it sits behind the knot, very close to the back. Hold the other end of the string (wrapped around the fist) near the head. As a young teenager we could throw a broom handle half the length of a football pitch. The trick was to throw at roughly 45deg and whip the arm down fast and forward.
With a normal string launched throwing dart/arrow, I'd intentionally twist the string 90-180 degrees around the dart body to give it spin stabilisation. We used to used the bulge of the knots on bamboo canes to hold the string, but never used an additional throwing stick, just the string. All these throwing dart vids are reminding of summer hols where everyone was launching arrows/darts on the the back field. No need to target anything, just launch darts back & forth, until someone was injured. 😂
The Ancient Greeks used a throwing thong called an Ankyle with a javelin. Wrapped a couple of times round the shaft it detaches when thrown imparting a spin to stabilise and extend the range. I suspect that due to the position you have the string this sometimes happens with the darts, but the fetchings are stopping the darts from spinning
I think you are right with the atlatl comparison. The string loops along the shaft round the non pointy end, ( notch in base needed?) back to throwing stick. Hence the long string in the manuscript.
I believe the reason it is up the shaft is no different from throwing a spear. The closer you can get to the center of gravity, the better. I might even try in front of the fletching just to see what happens.
Keep up the great work Tod! Love your films!
Thanks! Will do!
An idea about mid-fletching. With whip bows, you hold the arrow/dart in the hand before shooting(loosing?), which probably allows for a better release. Also reminds me of lawn darts where you can really impart a large amount of force with a handhold like that. As whip bows are significantly cheaper and easier to construct, it's not hard to understand why they would still be around, but not seen highly and therefore preserved.
Very nice one Tod, really enjoying the videos on the shooting, throwing and testing stuff. Thank you for your work.
Maybe the odd fletching placement was meant so that the enemy couldn't throw it back, kind of like the short arrows that had to be loosed from a bow using grooved stick, a solenarion I think they were called.
Fascinating video. And I appreciate your effort, innovation and narration!
One thing, though. The darts don't seem to have much weight in terms of being lethal against armor. Or even unprotected horse flanks.
I have a theory that perhaps our manuscript writer had heard of and/or seen both throwing strings and atlatls and was perhaps trying to combine them, create a sort of "best of both" solution. Given that this appears to be a one off reference, I think it may have been Renaissance tacticool, a bright idea that wasn't really practical or useful, like sword-pistols, knuckle duster revolvers, or pistol bayonets.
How would he have seen an atlatl when he was writing decades before Columbus 'discovered' the Americas?
@@iangreenhalgh9280 It was also being used in Australia. Its such a simple idea I would find it hard to believe nobody in Europe had not played with the idea here and there over the centuries
@@iangreenhalgh9280 The atlatl isn't American. It's been used all over the world for tens of thousands of years and the earliest physical example of an atlatl we have is from France and is about 17,500 years old. It wasn't widely in use in the 1400s but it's not impossible that this weapons and civil engineer buff had heard of it.
@@iangreenhalgh9280
It was used all over the world from the stone age onwards.
"Spear-thrower - Wikipedia" en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear-thrower
@@iangreenhalgh9280 The native Australians use a woomera for throwing spears
To work out the "why!?!" maybe try making some similiar darts, one without the fletching, one with the fletching at the end, one with the "tail" cut off - and see which work better.
That would only work if he is actually throwing it correctly, if not he is just experimenting with a different weapon.
So, you've got a bunch of various war darts, and you've got your own trebuchet... How far do you think you think you'd be able to lob a bundle of darts like these, and what spread would they have?
Loosely rolled in a cloth 'sabot' to unravel in flight? Nasty way to defend a bridge or river crossing . . .
A bundle of plumbata would be terrifying and I think would deploy in an effective fashion, these darts would probably tumble to much
Let's hope we find out.
Half a century ago I made these as a child and I got deadly accurate with it, but I used it all the time. I got rid of the hand stick and used full string and had my fletching at the 3/4 point if I remember right. The throw is the key. It is a style. Each time you throw follow through and hold it exactly the same, and I would whip my right leg and hip as I threw it greatly increasing power. I watched a vintage film(that was old in the 70's) and the warrior had the whole throwing handle (the string)made of wood and it had a hook like shape carved in to recieve the arrow into the handle. The arrow lay in a shallow bed of about half the arrow length. When launched correctly, by the native man in the footage film it easily killed the deer he aimed at. I never tried to hunt with it, but I could make my arrows disappear in the far away sky even as a child. I too found old references drawn in survival manuals that were absolutely wrong as if they wanted the recreator to fail Hope this helps.
It's great to see this channel doing well.
Enjoyed That mate. I wonder if the back end of the shaft is acting as a weighted counter balance when throwing? I think it's preventing the dart tumbling around the pivot point of the string. Remember an atlatl is hooked into the end of the shaft not wrapped around it so the release is entirely different mechanically. It would also be interesting to see one of your war darts with end fletchings thrown with this launcher. If it's unstable, it might explain placing the fletching where it is....
Maybe, but whenever I make a fletched thing, the longer it is the more stable it is
@@tods_workshop I could well be wholly wrong! Just interesting to speculate
This looks quite similar to the mesoamerican atlatl, but in that case they used a wooden concave stick to propel the dart, instead of a string.
These look so fun to throw, I'd love to try them someday.
Maybe try making the thing with a full size arrow to scale, and use two people -- one to hold the arrow, one to use the lever.
Aboriginal Australians used a wooden tool called a woomera to launch spears,using the length as leverage to multiply the throwers strength.
When we were kids we use to make throwing arrows from a garden cane and cardboard flights using a string with a knot in it to throw them and they use to go 3 parts the way over the cricket pitch
This is quite an interesting design. I learned about thong-thrown arrows years ago from a book on primitive skills, but there it works best if the thong is between the head and the fletchings and the hand is near the head.
My best guess would be that the odd fletching placement prevents one's adversary from "javelin-ing" the darts back at the thrower.
(in the middle of typing you did what i was wandering and figured something out)
String in the middle applies the force close to the center of mass. String at the back you need to align the force with the projectile and your aim. Its why atlattle (don't know the spelling) throwing stick needs a specific springinessand why olimpic Javelin is held in the middle
I love this practical archeology so much.
Tod not sure if you’ve seen it, but the current Lego 3 in 1 castle set comes with a working trebuchet! And is actually powered by a counter weight not a spring. Well worth a look
This Videos about this Darts inspired me to adapt them for Larp and they work great.
The Thong doubles the throwing distance (from my larp safe models with 125g).
I think the length of the throwing stick in the illustration is correct, and yes used as a two handed weapon. The power and distance ud gain would be remarkable but it would certainly take some figuring on how to effectively use it
My Hypothesis why the fletchings are so far forward:
The length behind the flething might be used to wrap a longer string in a spiral. It is fastened with the knot/bead techique to the end of the shaft and then spun in spiral (maybe 4-5 windings) around the shaft until it nearly reaches the flechings. This might allow you to throw it similarly as if the string was attached directly behind the fletchings while giving the dart a stronger spin and maybe more time for acceleration.
The image of 50-80 skilled warriors highly proficient in the use of these, ambushing a mounted patrol from the cover of the tree line would be a terrifying sight to behold. I may have to try my hand at making these, or incorporate them into some of my writing at the least
I remember as a kid (1950's) we used garden canes about 3 ft long fletched at the end, just a length of string with a knot tied just under the fletching's. It may be rose tinted specs but I'm sure we were heaving them half the length of the local football pitch.
with 2 playing cards made into the fletchings
Maybe the rear-most sling position allows the thrower to arch the arrow over cover, such as a low wall or shields?
I'd try it with a knock at the end of the shaft and a simple loop on the string. Should give you more range and a much smoother release.
I wonder if this was a re-imagining of the much smaller Kestros (Greek war sling dart). They would have certainly had that technology exposed to them in their history, so they may have been attempting to show or describe it from previous records?
I think you have it. I came to the same conclusion the next day. Someone has been reading Livy and Vegetius
Two questions: Have you considered the possibility that the cord is attached to the dart and not the throwing stick? Much like the finger loop concept, but the throwing stick is replacing your finger for added mechanical advantage in the throw. That would make it more like an atlatl.
Have you considered the possibility that the cord attaches to the dart at the center of gravity? That would put the fletching forward of the COG, but the extended shaft behind could stabilize the flight similar to a Congreve rocket.
African and Australian throwing sticks always looked very effective to me.
Yes but this is not like most of them.
I can't think of any widespread European throwing weapon that wouldn't be more effective than those.
@@Matt_Alaric Sorry pal, can you explain that, can you give me an example of a European throwing weapon that you can't think wouldn't be more effective than those. bit puzzled.
@@Matt_Alaric Actually, I used the wrong term, this is what I meant: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear-thrower
@@cgln8760 No, that's the whole point. Every European throwing weapon was more effective than a simple stick.
If it is a two hand sling throwing a javelin the fletching might be moved to be able to stab the back in to the ground, making for longer reach and faster "reload"
Fletching in the middle to have the string attachment point adjustable. Darts would likely not be exactly the same, neither would the throwing stick or string or even the thrower. The fletching did seem to work fine. I did not understand why such a short throwing stick.
If the stick is longer you cannot hold the dart
Moving the fletching towards the middle allows the cord to avoid touching it on release and disrupting the flight maybe
Thanks for shining a light on the past... can't wait to see your next video
Reverse enginewe it: Take the fletching the way you think would be optimal, then see whether there's any disadvantage and thus reason for the middle fletching.
Perhaps it's illustrating a gunpowder weapon. The barrel is held away from the user (perhaps dangled over a wall), either because such things had a tendency to blow up or to evade enemy fire, as a kind of early prototype for the periscope rifle (that was just waiting for someone to invent the periscope... and rifling).
Wild idea: The dart just really short and the extension at the end is part of the throwing mechanism. It slides into the back of the dart and makes the part you hold look like a nunchuck with a long cord. It would at least increase the reload speed.
It would. It would also leave you with heavily bruised shins!
We used to make then when I was a kid (12~13) up in Durham. The (cardboard) fletchings were always at the end and the arrowpoints were cut-down nails The shafts were bamboo.. We could get pretty good accuracy throwing them at targets at about 20 yards. I don't know how we learnt to make then, but all the lads were doing it. I found the same in Yorkshire when we moved there at age 13, so maybe it was a northern thing?
I wonder if there was a groove like a noc on the end of the shaft ? A fairly wide grove would release the string.
I'm feeling like the string needs to be waxed - like a bow. For smoothness and consistency.
I think what's needed is more of an atl-atl, except it needs to 'attach' directly onto the head, there's no need for the string.
think of two hooks on the 'atl-atl' grabs the head instead of the shaft.
You'll have much more consistent throws, it's just a case of fine-tuning the hook length so the bolt releases at the right moment without being obstructed.
It looks to me like the one that went into "flat spin" was unique in that you had the blades of the head oriented vertically instead of horizontally which would encourage spinning.
Interesting. As a Norwegian I have speculated whether this system was known to Nordic people in Middle Ages - I’ve even made a few javelins like these my self a while back. However, the lack of sources made me exclude them from my reenactment kit. So my question is were in the sagas they are mentioned? It would be fun to bring them to an event knowing a little more about their history in Scandinavia. Meanwhile, keep up the great work.
Put a sleeve on the bottom of the throwing stick that wraps around your hand.This way it's easier to Control the alignment of your dart and give it a bit more momentum. Also you don't lose your stick by throwing the dart
A suggestion to increase consistency, start with the dart in the throwing position ie. hold your arm back with the dart at the angle you want to release it
When i saw it for first time i thought that principal is same as previous darts. String is attached to arrow and stick have same purpose as finger.
And the stick allow to have greater reach for release. You have bigger reach and you release from bigger hight.
The fact that it split a branch is amazing for just a piece of wood, some goose feathers and a pointy thing at the end tossed using a string and a stick.
Making a wild guess but did they have hand cannons at that time? I've seen old an old drawing/tapestry showing a cannon shooting what look like a giant arrow.
Maybe the string is a secondary way of loosing this and the primary idea is to stuff it down a barrel?
Yes, they did have cannons at that time but no, I don’t think you could fire one of these out of a cannon. A cannon works like this: you have burning powder at the rear end and the only way it can go is forward. Because the ball is very close in diameter to the barrel, none of the explosion is wasted. With a dart like this, I don’t think it could withstand the gunpowder and it wouldn’t go into the barrel too well with fletching. Atleast a big part of the energy would be wasted.
@@josku5 I said hand cannon. Essentially an early type of musket what you touched a red hot wire or slow match to.
As for a full sized cannon firing arrows, look up "pot-de-fer" on Wikipedia. That's what I was referring to.
Maybe the artist thought you could push the arrow down to the fletchings and fire it from a hand cannon/early matchlock as they wouldn't have had much of an understanding when it came to firearms and recoil. As I said it's a wild guess though it would explain the fletchings going half way down the shaft.
Sorry if I sound a bit short tempered, I had a much longer post with a link to the Wikipedia page in it however the YT censor bot seems to be nuking any post I make with an external link.
Just one more reason for me to use odysee I guess.
Hi David, I think this was a one trick weapon, but yes they certainly did fire arrows from guns and cannons.
Maybe the fetching was moved forward on the shaft because the throwing string would damage them if it was looped ahead of them?
If you think about the knot placement as simply an extension of your hand and arm (which... is technically what it is), the center placement makes more sense.
If you watch an olympian throw a javelin, their hand is about 2/3 of the way back, very similar to where the knot is on this.
In terms of the fletching, I can only imagine that is so the feathers don't get caught on the string when throwing, while still providing reasonable flight stabilization.
whipping darts were common in europe and also Polynesia.. the maori also had long range ones that are stuck into the ground.. some were propelled with two people at once and used a larger dart like a spear
very nice! Thanks for keeping these things alive!
Cut a half moon notch on one side instead of right around. Tie a loop in the string and hook it over. Faster to load and releases flat. The fletch is half way down to stop the tip from elevating at release.
Thanks for this and in fact I worked this out the next day and yes it work MUCH better
I've enjoyed both videos very much Todd~
@Tod's Workshop there is a picture online somewhere of page 194 of "the american boy's handbook" describing the technique of throwing a dart using a whip bow. It seems close to the illustration you showed in the video.
Love how he’s using a dagger blade as a pointer
Reconstructive experimental archeology, this should be recognized as science.
I love the use of a stiletto as a pointer. :)
Having made and thrown 'Dutch Arrows' for years as a kid I feel your pain. Every 4th or 5th one would fly weird.
I think the launching notch should be infront of the fletching though, maybe the artist made a mistake?
I have had better success with the string attached near the back
@@tods_workshop This is why we love your channel....you just take a generally accepted idea then experiment the shit out of it :) I guess the ancients were exactly the same .
When I was alot younger, I was shown how to make something similar except that the cord end was a strip of flat leather that wrapped flat around the shafts.