The 'No-Kids Zone' Controversy (feat. 0.7 birth rate) | Korean Pizza Club | EP.21
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- Опубликовано: 30 июн 2024
- Despite Korea having a record-low in birth rate(0.7, 2023), certain store owners are not allowing kids/children to enter their stores. Parents with kids are upset about the matter claiming that it is discriminatory. However, the majority of Koreans seem to think 'No-kids zones' are ok and is the freedom of the store owner. Many argue that this type of freedom is a slippery slope, as we have seen other kinds of entrance restrictions towards certain ethnicities and minorities in the past. In today's episode of KPC, let's debate about whether the 'no-kids zone' is ok or not.
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🎤 Host: David Kim @justdavid_92 👫 Guests: Soobeanie @soobeanie / Anna Lee @jyannalee / Kelsey @KelseytheKorean
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Timestamps
00:00 intro
00:29 No Kids Zone
03:38 Legal Case - Safety Issues
05:27 Agree or Disagree? - debate
07:36 Safety reasons
10:35 Public Bath House - Blind people
12:40 Opposition to No Kids Zone
16:59 Korean Public opinion
18:03 Is it Discrimination?
20:21 Is No Kids Zone legal?
22:59 Do Kids bother you?
24:49 Human Rights Commission - Discriminatory
27:09 Where does the line stop? - No Foreigners, Vaccination, etc.
31:56 Low birth rate?
37:35 Final opinions, closing 
Развлечения
Early Access to this video: www.patreon.com/posts/no-kids-zone-0-7-91924771
Exclusive Podcast Episode: www.patreon.com/posts/kpc-debate-club-91692397
Interesting topic but def would’ve been helpful to have a guest on this session who have children to get their realistic input on this topic 💕
Agreed. I think David thought there would be more disagreement between them, but with no diversity in ages or circumstances, this conversation came off as rather one note.
I agree as a parent and a parent to a child who is considered disabled.
Valid! I'll try harder to get some guests!
@@koreanpizzaclubLETS GO PART 2 🎉
@@koreanpizzaclub appreciate you and the work you do David 🤗
I already felt anxious when Soobeanie told story about her friend bringing her kid to cafe and the constant stare from everybody there even when your baby fussing a bit. Can't imagine the stress she went through
Not to mention no one stepping in to help this poor mother. Not even soonbeanie herself. In the states there are people going to judge. However, there are so many others who will try and help or even a smile or saying “it’s okay you’re doing great.” Especially your friends and family who are out with you.
In India, there are children everywhere and people around them understand and adjust accordingly as a society. If there are no adjustments, it is impossible to live as a community. Kids are not allowed in places with age restrictions of above 18 (probably bars) but pretty much everywhere else there will be kids and it's okay. We were kids once, we need to show the same grace to future kids.
I am from Romania, so very far away from India, but I wanted to write the exact same thing, it is very similar here. And honestly parents don't really bring small children that won't behave to a very fancy restaurant where people are more formal for example. Usualy parents take care of their kids, they talk to them, maybe go outside or in a more private place if possible if the kid needs to calm down and so on. I have a kid and go with him in cafes and restaurants (he's 5 now), but even before being a mom I was never bothered by other people kids when I was out.
I think the key in both India & Rumania is how considerate everyone is - including children. When consideration rather than entitlement is part of the culture, this is what the community practices & what the children learn. But children must be taught this - by the society & the parents. But the parents must bear the primary burden (as you can see in any K-drama!). BUT as a society we must bring compassion & understanding to the difficult role of the parent & the process of learning by the child. All parts & people must work together in harmony.
Not to mention that kids ARE a part of society. A society that protects kids as if their own functions better.
i really like my Indian students. They are so kind and empathic. Even the patients like them very much. I think it's because these students were raised in a healthy society and always felt loved and appreciated
Thank you for sharing the case of India. It sounds like a very kid-friendly environment
Would be interesting to see this topic again but with 3 parents
At one point all of us were kids and society tolerated us so we should accomodate kids and be kind to parents.
As a mom myself, even without people's stares, when my son make a fuss in public, it alerts me so much if my son make others uncomfortable. So yeah it's hard going out in public with kids.
I can really relate to Soobeanie's friend story. But, just like Anna said, when you are a parent, you are bound to consider a lot of things before doing everything, even as simple as going out.
What I can't understand is to why there's a need to even label 'No Kids Zone', because if parents are mature enough, they know that there're places they can't go with kids even without a label.
It's just show, how Koreans are not fond of kids in general, which is upsetting. No amount of Government's effort can help with the birth rate issue if the society itself have no interest in having kids.
It's just a matter of time for South Korea to go extinct if the people are keeping the same stance.
Because there are many parents who are irresponsible
Very interesting discussion, thank you. 😊
Mom from Switzerland here.
Kids are allowed in every restaurant and coffee in our country. (which is great) Because they learn so to socialize and behave in good restaurants. Nevertheless, I have never, one in a star restaurant or in a quiet zone a screaming child experienced. It is part of our culture to be considerate of others so that everyone has a good experience. Besides, you don't go to a restaurant to have your peace and quiet. It seems like a scary future to me. We want equality for everyone and we exclude a part of society. That's a double standard, isn't it?
The craziest thing is, no one guarantees that the birth rate in South Korea will remain at 0.7 (2023) considering that Seoul below 0.55 (2023)
@@carkawalakhatulistiwaDamn .55 is brutal
Still Switzerland is only slightly better. They don't have the answer. @@carkawalakhatulistiwa
Also you can’t compare this to no blacks allowed. You can get a babysitter and still go to a restaurant or cafe. A black person can not take off their skin and come back later. This is totally different.
yeah some of this conversation was not it. Racism, ableism, is not the same thing
so a mom who can't hire a babysitter has no right to go to a restaurant? like, of course there's nothing to do with racism, I totally agree with you, but it makes the parents life even harder, particularly if we're talking about single moms, and all due a isolated case, theres zillions of kids in restaurants everyday since always, and only one lawsuit so... mabe too far?
@@rosasilva688 she's not saying there's no issue with accessibility. There definitely is. And I think they should have had parents on the panel. Just that it's not the same as racism. Also, I feel like they really downplayed the no foreigner/no chinese people xenophobia. Just bc people were afraid of covid does not mean you can discriminate against a whole ethnicity. Being afraid does not justify discriminatory practices in any way.
@@rosasilva688 I This is gonna be a long one. I AM a single mom so 🤷🏽♀️ I’m not sure what your point is with you comment when Again, I’m talking about the comparison to racism. You cannot change who you are but a parent has choices. I can’t, as a black person, choose to change my skin color. A parent can choose to go someplace else. And as a single mom… since you brought that up… I have always dined out with my child at some very nice restaurants. I did not allow my child to misbehave unchecked. I will reiterate - it is the responsibility of parents to take care of their child in public. I am guessing you feel it’s ok for people to have to deal with disruptive behavior and not have a peaceful dining experience or business owners to be found liable due to rambunctious children that run amok bc the parents just allow it? Again, there are 9 million restaurants and cafes. Go to one that allows children. Because I promise you, if parents were asked to leave an establishment bc their kid is out of control that would be an issue too. And yes, one instance caused this change because people can’t afford to pay lawsuits and have their livelihoods affected.
I think they were making the comparison on the babies' behalf, not the parents. Not allowing kids, who are human beings who can't help the circumstances of their existence, is similar (not the same) to colored people not being allowed. That's as far as the comparison can go, though. It was more a question of whether a no-kid zone would be a violation of human rights the way segregation was/is.
Parent here…there is no reason for your kids to be running around the restaurant at all. I didn’t even know it was a thing😂.
This concept of “No Kids Zone,” is truly foreign to me. As a mother if my children were unruly or didn’t know how to behave in a public space I probably wouldn’t go to that place however if I couldn’t take my children to a particular place then I wouldn’t go either. This was a interesting topic and I enjoyed hearing everyone’s perspectives although I would love to hear from a man or woman who have a child(ren) and what they experienced personally.
The craziest thing is, no one guarantees that the birth rate in South Korea will remain at 0.7 (2023) considering that Seoul below 0.55 (2023)
I can see why people are actively choosing not to have kids in Korea. Living in the west, it is absurd to have kids free zone, unless its a Michelin level restaurant. In fact, if you search kids free zones, it will show a list of places kids can enter for free. the west puts a huge importance on including kids in society, you keep taking your kids to restaurants, they will learn how to behave well and others will get used to seeing kids publicly too. if the society is shaming kids for being out and about, no wonder Korean youth looks down upon having kids.
On the other hand, as a parent, you need to train your kids to behave when outside or they get consequences. If in a day 10 kids enter a business, i doubt all 10 kids are creating havoc in the store.
I live in the US and that is just it some parents do not train their kids which is why that lawsuit in Korea happened and like in the US the courts could favor the parent. I can say as a childless person (by choice) I see both sides. It is nice to have some kid friendly places as yeah kids are energetic and curious and want to run around sometimes which is understandable but I do not feel all places in the west should be kid friendly outside of Michelin restaurants and even there kids are usually allowed. I see both sides like you make really good points but truthfully I think in the west we do not have more kids zones because of backlash. Starbucks got some backlash for not having changing tables some years ago and a parent changed their child on the chair and left a dirty diaper there which was rude on the parents end because Starbucks is a cafe which cafes are not really for little kids. I do not feel parents should be severely limited as they should have the right to go out and enjoy life too but I cannot say all places should be kids friendly. Some nail salons are starting to become no kid zones because of the risks that could occur which leads to law suits.
Your comment is 100% spot on
@@TravelingFoodie22 The craziest thing is, no one guarantees that the birth rate in South Korea will remain at 0.7 (2023) considering that Seoul below 0.55 (2023)
I think it's probably a cultural thing. Many restaurants in Korea are possibly smaller and more tightly knit so tables are closer together and the kitchen might not be as separated from the restaurant as it is in the US. In the US the kitchens are super separated from the rest of the dining area and usually tables are very spaced out. Also in Korea it seems they have more things where you cook at your table so little grills and big hot pots where there's a huge bowl of boiling soup etc. Where that doesn't really exist in the US. Also in the states it's expected that you control your kid in public places or go outside with them, where in Korea they might not really care what their kids are doing.
I’m not for or against kid-free zones, I just think Korean society should be a lot more kid friendly. This episode perfectly showcases why Korea has such a low marriage and birth rate, you guys don’t really like all the things that come with children. Children don’t care about social rules and in a society like Korea, that’s a huge problem. It’s not up to you guys to help your country, but if the government and the society at large truly wanted to continue growing, they’d be more friendly to children and parents, and try not to see them as a nuisance.
If a majority of Korean society views children as a burden to those with and even without them the birth rate will continue to decline. This is an issue that is definitely bigger than a "No-Kid-Zone" but it does add to the negative perception that is associated with having kids. A society and community that is non discriminatory is overall beneficial to everyone. Coming from someone who grew up in a (terrible)American society and its (terrible)history, just because a majority of people feel a certrain way about a demographic doesn't make it right to discriminate against them and in the long run its only going to hurt that society. Korea is now feeling that long term side effect. Parents with small childered are already a huge minority in Korea and I feel like their opinions and voices arent being heard. If the government won't stand up for them nobody will and you're going to see less and less of them in Korean society.
Sadly the no kid zones won't even be necessary, there just won't be any kids. I really hope something changes for Korea.
@@jessiepoo20 The craziest thing is, no one guarantees that the birth rate in South Korea will remain at 0.7 (2023) considering that Seoul below 0.55 (2023)
Terrible American society, really? Just because there are some bad things about American society doesn't mean it's terrible. Overall America is a very great place to live.
The birth rate was declining long before the no kid zones starting popping up. SK has bigger issues that started the decline in birth rate. No jobs for a highly educated population. Housing costs. Cost of education and then the cost of academies. You are correct in there are No anti discrimination laws in place to keep things in check. There is literally nothing that stops people from refusing entry to businesses etc off of simply not liking the way someone looks, age or for just being a foreigner.
@@nathancasey7712 you cannot tell this commenter that their experience in whatever society in the US they grew up in that it’s not or was not horrible for them. They do NOT have to love it in the US. This narrative that it’s atrocious to not love living in the US is ridiculous. Let people have their experiences without shaming or ridiculing them.
It's sad that being a parent limits being social. You need views from people who are parents and disabled
Beginning a parent doesn't limit one's social activities. As a parent, you have to choose whether you are going out for your child or you. If you are going out for yourself to meet friends, plan ahead so someone can watch your kids. If you are going out for your children, go to a kid / family-friendly place and play with your children. Simply as that. But again, I live in the US and have no idea about the infrastructure surrounding family culture in Korea.
@@sharaineroberts8537but, respectfully, not every person has that luxury of having someone watch their kids. And not many are comfortable having their kids being watched by others, if let’s say they don’t have family around. It’s much more complicated. I can see both sides. Like I as a parent in the US don’t find if there are kid free zones. I totally respect it and understand. However, in a society like Korea where you’re frowned upon simply because your child is crying and having real human, and developmentally healthy response,- I can see it being yet another thing of annoyance of society not accepting of kids. In the US there’s so many other options where it doesn’t matter if one or 2 places are saying there’s no kids allowed. I hear in the video that there are other options. But it seems like they’re mainly in one area and it’s more of a hassle to go to. Also it seems like these kids friendly places in Korea are only kid themed. Sometimes you just want to not be immersed into that and go somewhere normal with your family. Again I do see your point and respect it. And I do agree some places should have kid free zones, but I just wanted to input a parents’ point of view
I’m a mom. I have no problems with no kid zones. People do not mind their children and they get mad if you want them to mind them. Also, the no kid zone cafes are nice for the people working remotely or students studying. I think in the US or other Western countries that do not have 10 cafes on every block, they are limited as far as options. But Asian countries, not just SK, have so many cafes that the options are endless. I think 2 hearts one Seoul talked about this. They showed the number of cafes to the number of no kid zone cafes and the percentage of no kid zone cafes was very small. And I’m just going to say what no one else will. Not everyone wants to be bothered with other people’s children. It just is what it is. Some people say but they’re children! Ok. Right. They’re YOUR children. Control them in public spaces.
The craziest thing is, no one guarantees that the birth rate in South Korea will remain at 0.7 (2023) considering that Seoul below 0.55 (2023)
@@carkawalakhatulistiwa Honestly I don’t think this cafe thing affects the birth rate that much. People either want to have kids or they don’t. If they don’t it’s going to be for major reasons. If they do want to have them they will. My understanding the biggest concerns in SK right now is income, lack of jobs, housing, costs of school if you have a child and then the cost of academies to help your kid get the best education and therefore job. In all the street interviews and news programs I watched did anyone ever say, well I won’t be able to go to my favorite cafe anymore.
IMHO, once you go out into the public, you cannot control or demand that society bend to your preferences regarding noise level, especially if an establishment does not implicitly state that they demand quite. Some cafés are quiet, some are loud. You go where you feel comfortable, but if you need absolute quiet to study, you can go to a library, bookstore café, quiet park, or just stay home. Nobody owns the atmosphere, so I think it's unrealistic for people to get upset about the noise level in public (if an establishment has no rules on it, that is) 🤷♀️
@@krystavi05right! So in that same energy… people can’t be mad that people don’t want noise. 🤷🏽♀️ No one wants pin drop quiet. However, no one wants to be bothered with rambunctious children because the parents don’t care. And people will say oh but you were a child too once but guess what?!?! Who cares! 😂 Everyone was a kid once and there are still people that don’t want to be bothered with the shenanigans of someone else’s children. The bigger issue is respecting shared spaces and the people in those shared spaces. Restaurants and cafes are not playgrounds and some people don’t watch their kids. People go to those places for meals or a snack not romper room.
I never came across a no-kids zone in Europe. I’m honestly against it, I think it would backfire quickly. I don’t want to live in a society where people are excluded.
I see that as a classic non-problem created to distract people from the reality that there’s little help from the government to raise a child and there’s no place for family and shift the attention to families vs single battle, meanwhile, the problem is much deeper than that.
Here in England, there are signs everywhere recommending parents to have constant supervision over their kids. But restricting it, is taking a learning process from a child life. Children need exposure to how socium works so they can learn to navigate through life and understand the person opposite them. In Korea, you have that, that you have to respect the ppl older than you. How is that going to happen if you or the kids are not exposed to all aspects of society?
Here in Australia, it's the other way around. The facilities for kids are amazing: parks and playgrounds at every corner, inside playgrounds in shopping centers for rainy days, change rooms and feeding stations everywhere, kids corner even in toilets, etc.
Sounds like a wonderful place to raise kids.
Yes, except for the NWO restrictions of rights showing up everywhere. Unfortunately, the golden years of Australia are gone.@@krystavi05
Like this topic and very interesting. Honestly its first time i saw this topic a huge issue but the way i have seen in kdramas parents are very displeasing and arrogant so i can see why owners would want these laws. In India parents are totally opposite, they will be the first one to grill their kids to behave properly. They will not hesitate to scold kids in public places for creating nuisance and here kids can go anywhere. And people don't mind kids in public places + it's parents' responsibility to make kids behave
So true! My parents would grill me if I moved from my seat, if I made noise and if I made a mess. Not just in a public place but also at home. And I think it's common sense that it's the parents' responsibility to take care of their kids. I feel that it should only be acceptable for babies, and not small kids, to be making noise and a decent amount of mess. It might be hard to discipline small kids but I promise that there's nothing a good smacking won't solve! 😂 At least it worked for me! 😂😂
I love the way they all jumped on him when he said, “I don’t have an opinion.” 😂 He did keep his cool & answer but the whole exchange was free free & refreshing 👍🏽
In Australia our licensed community clubs (places that have say a bistro, a few bars, maybe some sporting facilities and conference facilities) have an 8pm cut off for under 18s accompanied by an adult/guardian. This works well because families can go out for a meal, and people can then enjoy a night out, with say live music and drinking after 8pm. Also everywhere kind of accepts that you are responsible for your own kids and that if your kids are being too disruptive, unsafe or badly behaved you can be asked to leave (similar to any person behaving badly). There are signs in a lot of places that children must be accompanied by an adult and under direct supervision, even in places like McDonalds playgrounds.
Wow, you paid a bunch of money and still people don't want to have kids. Countries I've been to with zero kid facilities are ironically the places that have kids.
@@samassey7 Not sure what you mean? Yes we have a low birth rate but I think that has more to do with social factors like women needing to or choosing to have careers and leaving having kids until later. But also myself and almost all of my friends have 3 plus kids (up to 8) and we are just normal Aussies. I guess it's really just that we all have freedom here to make that choice. Housing costs plus work/career being the limiting factors. And of course child care issues. I personally stopped working with my 2nd because of childcare costs. So wanting a bigger family may mean living in the regions/country or outer suburbs. But there are so many free things to do and plenty of family activities for those who want to access them.
@@melsb1825 I think you have 1.5 children per woman, as an American we have about the same. Not replacement level by any means, but we will just import people from wherever like the history of your's and my family. These people come from a xenophobic country with a long cultural history where it is very difficult to change. While they are telling person stories the larger question is if their people or more importantly if their culture is going to exist much longer.
See, that's a reasonable compromise: ask someone to leave if they cannot control/teach their disruptive child. Instead, SK seems to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
I’ve never heard of “no kids zone”. That’s so strange.
You are entitled to a child free life, not a child free society
With the low birth rate the bussiness owners are gonna have to invest to make it elderly friendly
I think that because of the low birth rate Koreans have gotten so use to not share the same spaces with kids from diferent ages. That have forgotten how is to coexists with people from all ages. Both grown ups and kids need each other to nourish theselves. We need to remember we live together in this world.
Korean society is screwed. Entitled individuals not being compassionate or generous. Basically, be better people, on both sides, then you don't NEED a no kids zone. Be better people in general. For businesses to simply shut down an entire section of client-base is just stupid, but understandable if the precedent set was set by the courts.
However, in most countries legally, store owners have the right to choose their clientelle. It's when people have issues that are NOT a choice (such as disability and race) then it's discrimination.
There was a time when my wife and I went out for a nice steak dinner with our kids. We were there with her two children, a 4 year old and a 6 month old. The older was quietly eating her meal and the baby was not fussing, but just making happy baby noises. An old lady walked up to us and said "I have dogs better behaved than your baby." We were so totally shocked, especially since the baby wasn't being very noisy. We haven't been back to that steak house since, going on 19 years.
wow that's horrible. I am so sorry.
About the no child zone thingy in korea. I think it's because of parents, not the kids. This is why teachers in Korea go above and beyond to students cause their parents are a bunch of karens.
David, I think this episode you missed someone that actually has kids to be more acouarate about the experience with kids
As a LatinAmerican this topic is so interesting for me, I get a new view from listening to your opinion, even tho in México is almost imposible to be in public spaces, parks and restaurant without kids, I agree with all the arguments you mentioned, I think there’s no good or wrong idea, they’re just trying to adapt the service to the costumer request, so it can fit the society standards, I hope everyone gets a benefit from this proposition
Being a parent myself, it’s on us to control our kids, not the place of business…when my daughter was little, if she was overly weepy, I’d take her outside, let her calm down, walk around etc. when your paying to eat or shopping, who wants bratty or screaming kids. That’s just me, each parent is diff.
Parents should be held accountable for the behavior of thier children. A business owner is not responsible for others children and managing thier business. When a business owner is sued and the consequences can put someone out of business or make a financial hardship, that is an injustice. Enter the business at your own risk! No one else thinks your poor parenting and rowdy child is cute! Adore those moments at home!
Hi, I missed the live. As a parent (my son is an adult now), I agree. The main reason is because of the parents who don't take care of their kids. Also, there are places that are kid only zones. I am also a black woman and kid free, and no black is very different and not a good comparison. As a parent, when I wanted to go out, I wanted to get away from my kids and have peace and quiet.
I agree that the main reason is parents not taking care of their kids. Allowing the kids to explore and learn in a society setting is one thing but parents should be there to ensure they are safe. Parents should teach the kids on what is not okay to do (e.g. running inside a cafe/restaurant, disturbing other customers etc.) Imagine a kid running around in a busy cafe, not only could the kid could get hurt, the other customers could get hurt as well.
I've visited some cafes in South Korea and sometimes they labelled the upper floors/balcony areas only as a no-kid zone. I believe it is due to safety concern.
I myself do not have any kid. What concerns me is kids whose behaviour could potentially put him/herself or others in danger.
Coming from Italy, this make me laugh sooo hard, we deal with anarchy’s children in every place, from McDonald’s to Michelin star restaurants 🎉
This is so interesting! (Full disclosure, I haven't finished watching yet but was compelled to comment lol). I am a Canadian mom but I am living in Korea. As a parent, you need to be thinking about where it is ok to bring your kids before you bring them anyway. I have not encountered the no kids zone problem with my kids yet (we moved here in July. To be honest, there are so many family friendly places here. I have so many options of places that my kids are welcomed. Kids can be loud and disruptive, this is just true! I love them so much, but there are lots of times that I would like to be enjoying my coffee in peace and quiet hahahahaha. I absolutely agree with cafe owners. I don't think there is a problem for there to be a no kid zone boundary, I have lots of kid friendly options. I feel that Korea is extremely kid friendly. There are always family bathrooms, nursing rooms, friendly spaces, etc. Many restaurants have cutlery, plates, kid chairs. I feel that restaurant owners should be able to create an adult friendly atmosphere. As a parent, I have not encountered a kid free zone with my kids (4 and 6). I am very happy here, so far! People have treated my kids so well.
Very interesting. I just came back from vacation in Japan and Seoul without my 2 toddlers. I was surprised to not see as many local kids as I thought I would have out in public other than some of the more touristy areas, parks, and some of the friendlier malls. I can definitely see how it is difficult to raise children in Seoul, like many large cities and the decision to move to more "suburban" areas vs commuting/giving up career prospects. I do agree that a follow up conversation, maybe including Soobeanie's friend or other younger parents included, would be interesting.
Some restaurants in the US have large area dedicated to kids, Called the Kidzone. And they would have a little things in there. To attract their attention and keep them busy while they’re waiting for their meal. Then the rest of the restaurant is mostly adults, but it’s OK to have a new kid zone as long as you have an area for the kids to where they won’t disturb the rest of the guest
The fact that the whole panel actually agreed to the no kids allowed in restaurant is wild because of that lawsuit, it's still 50/50 situation ,the common restaurant have to be kids friendly and those that are really high end not allow kids, there should be a balance . The problem may also lie within the parents how they actually discipline their children, I think Korean people in general should go back to how discipline is instilled in their household, the fact that Korea also has a problem with bullying among children in schools show how parents aren't really enforcing discipline towards their children at home. If people generally continue to not allow children in public establishments, many people won't want to have children and the percentage will continue go down , up until you become a parent that's when you really see the effects exclusion in many establishments, it's an inconvenience a lot of younger generation aren't ready to face,hence decision to avoid having kids.
I've seen a lot of youtubers currently living in Japan and Korea say that they wouldn't want to raise kids in those countries specifically because of the culture surrounding children/teen life.
@@krystavi05 like they are so anti children but get surprised when their population is continually decreasing , they've personally created a country where it's like it's a burden to have children, it's also expensive to raise children, change your attitude towards children, mother's and wife's then everything will be ohk.
I'm from Colorado, your Aunt would LOVE it here! I go to restaurants all the time and dogs are for the most part allowed there.
It is a strange issue for a country with so few children.
As a few comments already mentioned, India is very VERY kid friendly society. We are expected to adjust, but it also goes two ways. For example, once I went to watch a thriller in a movie theatre and a mother with a kid was sitting beside me. She was making the kid watch something on the phone while the movie was on. And because the kid wasn't using earphones(as they shouldn't) I couldn't concentrate on the movies. I let the mother know about it, and she immediately moved the kid to other family members who were sitting beside her & I enjoyed the rest of the movie in peace. So you see, here parents also adjust which makes the whole thing bearable. Also, bars, clubs, are already 18+ zone, so we can enjoy without kids if we want to. Adding to that, in India people go out with their families (including extended families) a lot so restaurants here will prefer to be kid friendly as it will bring in more sales. Having said that, don't we encounter with irresponsible parent? Or, absolutely annoying kids? We do. But they are really minority. And overly naughty kids are usually disciplined by their parents if they disturb others. Indian restaurants aren't pet friendly though. Post covid, I am noticing a lot of cafes allowing pets but still pretty low in numbers.
Loved the discussion as always. Keep up the good work!
ngl having your kid watch smth on the phone in a movie theatre is wild 😂
@@moonnamu96 IKR! Even I was surprised because that was my first time seeing something like that!
Interesting topic! Usually when we go to restaurants with young kids (my little nephew is 3) restaurants usually have some utilities available like a baby chair or sometimes even a little play corner. Here in the Netherlands I never heard about a kids or a baby free zone. I do know that there are travel agencies who offer a sort of a "adults-only" vacations.
I'm surprised by some comments in here who said there's no "zero kid zone" in Europe. I live in Europe. There's plenty of places where kids aren't allowed such as adult only hotel (nothing s*xual in here, just forbidden for kids and teenagers), some high end restaurants also, or even some bar and club where it is obvious you cannot enter if you are under 18 yo. It is not discriminatory and I'm very glad that such places exist. Some people suffer from noises produced by high pitched voice and screams. Some people are autistic and wouldn't handle annoying kids. Some people are working with kids daily and want to enjoy vacation without feeling they're still at work. Some people don't want to monitor their language and feel free to speak in a not very polite way. Living in a community is also accepting there can be a specific place for anyone particularities without always being forced to adapt to others loud behaviors.
A litle bit of empathy for kids would be good. No wonder why birth rate in Korea so low.
No kids zone, I thought it was a joke. Oh my! All of SA is child friendly, like 100%, unless it's an extremely up end restaurant, casino, or the likes. This is the first time in my life I've heard of a no kids zone. My hubby and I were in Capetown a few days ago. At the V&A Waterfront, they had a sign at a restaurant saying, "husband daycare, drop your husband off if you want to go shopping". I jokingly said ok, so do they like watch rugby and drink beer? They have young ladies to entertain... I'm sure it was a joke, but still, it's a GRAND idea...
There is only one thing I used to absolutely hate about the South-African shopping experience, on the way to the till, there are SHELVES and SHELVES of sweets and treats. The little kids have tearful fits once you move that way... so cruel. You are literally surrounded by rows and rows of sweets and chocolates.
In SA, families won't go to places that don't cater for kids and have kids play zones. That's something SA does well, jungle gyms, computer games, movie rooms, trampolines with safety nets, the works. You can literally breathe for a while a just watch your kids play! They meet other kids and play their guts out!
Just have a mommy and kiddies section that is safe. I took all 3 my kids on my 40th bday, on Valentine's Day at an upend restaurant, 🙈 never again! They wanted to play with the fish in the fish tank. Just be strict, and kids will know the rules, but little fishes in a beautiful tank...
It's a strange concept to get used to. Now that my kids are grown up, it's nice to watch other kids play. It's a foreign concept to us! Most mothers go out to get out of their routine and catch up with a friend, that's just very restricted!
The Swedish woman and African woman are similar. It's just so natural to feed their babies in public. We just often say, ok, don't look left and act natural...
Saying no Chinese people in restaurants is just so insane, no athletes, no fat people, no black people... jikes, then no babies. If it's a smart place, yes, if not, just get over it! Some flights Muslims want to ban Jews. It's been all over the news. The entire war was begun by Hamas. People have begun that, too, no Jews in hotels. The world is becoming a disgusting place. Rather, not insult your customers, because customers are your line of revenue! And the buffet, have a polite sign that limits the amounts they can take. People love to bring up the "aparheid" topic, but it seems like we've overcome that thing nicely! I'm not a Korean, and understand that people are having less children, but just always remain human and have compassion for others.
What I honestly appreciate about my country is the education system and childcare. I watched a news clip about school teachers committing suicide in Korea. The entire system is unhealthy. The poor teachers. It's not exactly an over protective parent, as much as it is a lack of proper rules for the parents to be limited in their contact with the teachers. It's quite unprofessional for parents to act so extremely familiar.
I think I agree with the store owners. Plus, "no kid zone" is them just taking legal responsibility. So many scammers will also put their children in harms way just to gain money through lawsuit. You would be surprised.
Also, you would never see a kid lying down without shoes and playing video games in an American restaurant that isn't like Chuckee cheese. One of those things, maybe, but never all three.
Honestly, this breaks my heart. Children are a blessing. This speaks to worldview and probably why the low birthrate.
They're a blessing but still nuisance. Some people like me who want peace and quiet after long day of work, I am entitled to child-free spaces.
@somabalestra1131 I have two children. Anyone, regardless of age, can be a nuisance. Raise them up to be kind and considerate. Love them well. Our expectations for people to be respectful are too low.
@@mdkirkland I am a child-free peron. I'm not responsible on how people should raise their kids nor should I change my personality to cater to them.. I just want a quiet space, that's it.
There are plenty of child-friendly spaces that I see around me and I avoid them immediately because I am a bit sensitive to noise.
Some adults will want a peaceful space and that's within their rights to look for a comfortable spot for them, they're paying for it. Parents shouldn't treat it as a taboo.
As a mom with 5 kids I agree with no kid zone because sadly most parents I meet DO NOT take care their children properly & disturb others. I only bring my kids to kid friendly place to give other adults who pay for peace & quiet environment their right. Because as an adult I want that environment since I pay for it,so I have the right!
Blame the parents for the poor behavior of the child. Sometimes, in America, I wished there were "No Kids Zone". I was at Physical Therapy and someone had their 3 yr. old crying, talking loud, etc. I actually felt sorry for the child. In the US, besides a night club/bar, I can't think of any place you can't take a kid. Guess the US is very kid friendly. I would LOVE a No Kids Zone, but lawyers would get involved and it would go to court stating it's the right of the child to go anywhere. Hence, I choose to go places where it's highly unlikely there are children or go during school hours when the kids are in school. Common sense parents? What! Korea has approved discrimination that wouldn't ever go over in the US. I'm surprised Kelsey can smoke indoors, I'd think that would be illegal. I've never seen a Kid Free Zone in the US.
Totaly an Annas side 👏👏👏 I live in Denmark - kids everywhere😅 I love my kids, but I don’t need to meet other People’s kids when i want to eat at a nice restaurant and enjoy my husband♥️
Kids are small for such a short time - the parents will survive🤗💜
The govt in USA gives grants for small businesses to implement accessibility facilities but they need to be implemented especially for certain kind of establishments
For the bath house issue, a waiver can help to solve liability. Also, government support for disabled people would be great for providing fair experiences for everyone.
Growing up and living in America, this is an interesting topic, because I've never really encountered a "no-kid" zone. There are age restrictions for specific activities, but it's not blatant. Also, everything does come down to the parents to take care of their children. Being a parent, lots of "no-kid" zones would be very challenging.
It would be great to have someone on the panel who's either married or a parent because that would give us a different perspective as well.
Very interesting topic!!
I have seen lazy parents, it's nothing new. Parental classes might help but not sure if it's available in South Korea as in the states.
In America you absolutely cannot ban blind people from bath houses 😂 You have to provide public accommodations to impaired customers, or otherwise you are in violation of the ADA. Korea is wild!
Hey i love this podcast! Born in Korea in the early 80’s and it changed so much! Can’t wait to move back in 26
This is very interesting topic, indeed. Never thought before about this issue . Well, in my old country, parents were restraining kids the moment they begin to misbehave . That is they would say " stop it! " , helped . Do not know if that upbringing, fear of parents , etc?
The craziest thing is, no one guarantees that the birth rate in South Korea will remain at 0.7 (2023) considering that Seoul below 0.55 (2023)
Off topic ish-
About disabilities in America- the laws in place are easily summed up as:
It's a human right to have equal access to the public. It's not a human right to own a business.
If you can't afford to make your business accessible, then you can't afford to own a business.
Now, how that would apply to Korea since most of their places weren't made that way in the first place...I have no idea. I would say creating a government funded group that provides "helpers" to the disabled would be a great start. Like, you could call a guide person for the blind person who wanted to experience the bathhouse. Then have them sign a waiver? That way they're still included in all walks of life.
We also have specific playplace establishments here. (Like an indoor bounce house or trampoline park for example) And we always have to sign a waiver, before the kids play, that says that the business is not responsible for any injuries LOL it's a "play at your own risk". That could be another option.
Lol this is why the whole country bout to be a no kids zone.
Team Anna
In India or even america, when i travel with my babies and they cry, everyone around me immediately jump in to help, hold them if i need to take diapers out etc when i travel alone. But i notice it was different in Singapore and everyone gave me a stern look when my kids were loud or even just happy scream. Peoples mindsets also dictate how well babies/kids adapt to society.
I love this panel so much
Because employers/employees are not babysitters and want to avoid the liability
Where I live, kids are everywhere.
I’d love for our town to have some more adult friendly areas,
because all the adults here have to go to other towns
(or even drive to a different state)
just to do something like go to a club.
It’s important for kids to have places that are for them, but I think the same could be said for adults too.
Everyone wants to be able to have a place that’s just for them.
Very nice topic! I think no kids zone are bad idea considering the low fertility rate. The case with the lawsuit is an example of “weak/unfair” justice system. I think there should be more law enforcement protecting businesses, and parents. Instead of excluding someone they can make set of rules
Modern life is so miserable. Think about it, you have no real legal right to be anywhere aside from heavily policed public sidewalks and parks. You have your dwelling, but you have to pay huge amounts of money for it. You can enter a business upon their restrictions and only if you pay. Cities are essentially smog filled prisons.
In America, it’s unheard of a no kids zone. Only certain places like bars and nightclubs have age restrictions. I think businesses with no kid zone will lose money. Part of running a business need safety compliance.
Here in the U S, I have seen kid free zones inside restaurants where there are separate sections. Sometimes the family sections are labeled kid zones instead of no kid zones.
I can kinda understand the 'no kids zone' if its a fancy expensive dining place or like a bar where they serve alcohol but anywhere else nope. Like Korea already has such a low birth rate if you ostrasize the people who do, the problem will be worse
It's interesting hearing your opinions. I live in Daegu, and ...
1) I don't think I've ever seen a "No Kids Zone". Granted, I'm sure there're a bunch here too, I just never see them. This kinda sounds like it's more of a 수도권 problem
2) I see moms (and grandmas) out with their bad @ss kids out in restaurants and cafes all the time lol
3) A friend of mine runs their own cafe ( a really big one), and they have horror stories of kids being disruptive and I can tell you the main problem are the "Karens" that don't properly control there kids
4) I've been told "no foreigners" (I'm Black) on quite a few occasions (especially after Covid). The idea of discrimination doesn't work the same as it does in the states.
5) I really don't think there is ANY correlation between no kids zones and the low birth rate. You could make no kids zones illegal tomorrow, and I doubt the birthrate would budge an inch.
Im from latin america (Chile) and well, there are ppl like u guys, that maybe are a little annoyed with screaming kids at a restaurant for example, but generally speaking, is not a thing that we want to erase as a society. We just accepted it and keep living hehe. If we want to build a nice environment for our future generations, I think tolerance is the number one thing. And ofc, spoiled kids are gonna be everywhere, but if in the future i decide to have children of my own, it will be my responsibility to raise them right for them to not be annoying in a common space that we all share❤ that's my view on the subject.. nice episode guys
A mother's perspective: gender is a HUGE part of this debate. The reality is that, even in 2023, the larger proportion of childcare, particularly during early years, still falls on women. New motherhood can be a lonely experience and it's the most vulnerable time for both the mother and their child - the level of support they receive in this time can have so much impact on physical, mental and emotional health for both. It's 100% certain that an environment or society which is not friendly to or supportive of children will disproportionately affect women. This obviously runs deeper than cafés, but it is one example of an area where mothers can either be made to feel like a welcome part of society or excluded from it. I've travelled with my 1.5 year old in Europe, Africa and Asia and have experienced firsthand how the degree to which a culture is baby/family friendly directly impacts my sense of safety, self esteem, capacity to parent etc., all of which make a difference in raising a healthy, happy child. You can feel it everywhere you go when you're in a place where kids are considered a natural blessing or a burdensome choice. Children are a natural part of life; being more exposed to life in its most natural form is so important for individuals and society as a whole to not get lost in dystopia.
My own perspective as a childfree woman. Personally, I never wanted to have children. I never wanted to become a mother. I find children to be adorable yet I rarely enjoy their company, I am just not good with kids. I am far better with the elderly.
(Sorry I know my words seem harsh but I don't know how to express it gently).
I want to have spaces that cater to people like me just like mothers want to have spaces that caters to them and their children. We are all entitled to that and it's ok. However, I think S.Korea is crossing the dystopia line and it's too much even for a childfree person like me. It's disturbing how S.Korea treat kids and I absolutely do not approve their treatment to mothers. Being a mother is really a thankless job indeed.
Thank you for sharing your perspective as a mother, it was lacking in the video.
@@somabalestra1131 I appreciate your response! I was actually one of those people that had no interest in having children until around the age of 30 (I'm 34 now). I was never a 'baby person' as and absolutely saw a child free life as a fulfilling option. My own tolerance towards being around other peoples children (and children behaving how they naturally do) underwent a big shift through living in East African countries in my late 20s where it isn't really a debate, kids are just an integral part of the fabric of everyday life. It doesn't feel so annoying to hear a kid crying in public when its as normal and ubiquitous as any other human background noise.
I'm not disagreeing with business owners' rights to cater to the clients they feel are most suitable for their business, but it seems symptomatic of a wider exclusion of children and mothers from community, which isn't great for equality.
@@katewainwright
I live in the most child friendly country in the world. Child-free people like me are seen as freaks and outcasts. A woman with no kids after 25 is a disgrace here and I am turning 37 at the end of the year. With all that being said, I still don't want kids. My family are actually starting to look down on me because of that but I won't give in to that social pressure. As cheesy as that may sound I'll always do me.
"but it seems symptomatic of a wider exclusion of children and mothers from community, "
It is but that's business. People want to protect their brand. There will always be spaces that won't welcome you. Me as a child-free person. I have no space for me in my own country. I get so much hate and discrimination so I turn to online spaces to find people I can relate to. without any judgement, that's life.
I accept the fact that I am within the minority but I'll never change myself to fit into society's expectation of me. I value my own happiness.
Sorry If I was sharing a lot. This topics makes me say corny stuff haha. Cheers~
As someone with young kids, dinning out can be rare. The worse can be toddlers. I'm torn in-between because some babies and kids are pretty good at restaurant. I love taking my kids dinning on rare occasion, it's a special treat for them. If u know your kid ain't the type to behave n u can't manage them, do take-out or eat at home. Everyone knows during certain stage of parenthood your social life is down. There are plenty of restaurant in the US who will put you in a more separate space when they see you have a bunch of kids with you. This help keeps attention away and give parents and kids some space. In the US, my experience people got more compassion if it's a crying baby/child. People tend to adore baby/kids making cute comments and smile as they walk by. If they see you are struggling to manage a uncooperative child, they step in to help. You don't feel this type of burden or judgement as a parent when people are more compassion around u. I would agree for Korea the no-kids zone. The law does not protect the restaurant in this situation for a child bad behavior. Then again not knowing the whole fact on the case, did that particular restaurant neglect to make it a safe zone for all customer? Was there hot soup/liquids left unsupervised in the open that could potentially cause a accident to any customer not just a misbehave child?
Many resorts have adult only pools along with a family pool. As long as everyone has an option I don’t see an issue.
I'm seeing more anti child attitudes in the west recently as well. Not talking about people not choosing to have kids (that's okay, raising a child is expensive), but more people not wanting to be around children in public places. Everyone was a child once, i think it's selfish to treat parent and children as a major annoyance if they are just there existing. Obviously some places should be child-free but it shouldn't be the norm. And it goes both ways, parents should actually parent properly and be responsible for their children and respectful of other people around them.
I think the marketplace dictates these things. The food and beverage industry is a difficult industry to thrive in. Most businesses would probably be better off not discriminating against anyone.
Another option would be have no kid times like from 5pm there should be no kids in certain places. Because kids shouldn't be outside anyway after that and that's the time that young people go to cafes to relax, study etc... As for me as a young person that loves to work and study in restaurants and cafes there's no worst thing that hearing a baby scream or cry for 1 hour so I am in favour
Would have been awesome to have Megan Moon on this episode.
Ooh true
I have two kids under 5 who are half korean and are planning to go to korea for a holiday so they can learn about their heritage. Looks like we will reconsider the trip.
Already liked the video
Really good topic and guests. As although neither are parents there was first hand experience of going out with those with children. I feel a no kids zone is only needed because like the teachers story owners are not supported when such incidents occur. Where is the parent’s responsibility regarding ensuring their child’s safety, behaviour and respect for others in the store/restaurant.
As someone without children I feel I’m being penalised when I’m out and I have to listen or be around others and their children. P.s I turn down kids party invites with my friends children as I can’t think of anything worse. I’m an Aunty for only maybe 2x per year. Sorry not sorry
As a parent and grandparent in the USA i am a little dishearted about the kid free zones. Understandable in some businesses but casual restaurants and cafes are just insane. If parents were mindful firsr of their children such casualties wouldn't be a factor in society. Yes kidd will act out but thats not as much as you would think. Parents i the usa will excuse themselves for a few moments with the child to correct the problem and when child is nor acting oit bring them back in.
I am a huge fan of the show. However, today, it was extremely hard to watch. The main reason is there were no representation on the panel.
When Anna said, “is it that severe…when you become a parent there are layers of things you have to do.” Comments like these are said so casually because they have no experience in feeling discriminated. The problem is, where do we cross the line?
As an American, laws had to abolish discrimination because these “private owners” covered their racism with any justification.
I also agree with the No kid zone, since there are parents who are irresponsible. As a parent I have had to stop another child and the parent got upset with me. However, I am a mom of 2 boys who expose them Michelin star restaurants, luxury spas, etc. I taught the boys at home, trained them going to less formal restaurants and social settings.
Love you Anna, but it was rough watching this one today!
Well, I’m glad I saw this video. I was planning to take my children to South Korea but I guess the country is our no go list. I don’t want to be looking up where I can and can’t go with my kids while on vacation.
No kids zone makes sense in Korea since there was a ruling by the court where a restaurant owner was charged guilty for 'harming' a child. The child was running around without the parents telling him to behave - which resulted him into bumping into a waitress holding a pot of hot soup, and ultimately a bad burn to his skin. The parents never apologised but had the audacity to sue them instead.
The restaurant owners around the country saw the court ruling as the judges not caring about unruly children ruining their businesses, and many places adopted the no kid policy in case they have irresponsible parents coming in and wreaking havoc.
I LIVE IN THE US. I HAVE 2 DAUGHTERS NOW 22 AND 24. I HIGHLY AGREE IN THE KIDS FREE ZONE. IF PARENTS WANT TO GO OUT WITH THEIR KIDS, GO TO KID FRIENDLY ZONES. YOU CAN GO TO A KID FREE ZONE WHEN THE KIDS ARE IN SCHOOL. ALSO YOU CAN LEAVE THE KIDS WITH THE FATHER, GRANDPARENTS, FRIENDS OR DAYCARE IF YOU REALLY WANT TO GO TO A KID FREE PLACE. ESPECIALLY AFTER HEARING THAT LAWSUIT, I WAS APPAULED THAT THE OWNER OF THE CAFE HAD TO PAY! IT'S THE PARENTS FAULT FOR NOT TEACHING THE KIDS TO SIT STILL. MANY YEARS AGO WHEN I WAS IN MY 20'S IN A RESTAURANT WITH MY MOTHER, I SAW AN ACTOR AND HIS 3 YEAR OLD SON AND HE SAT IN HIS SEAT, I WAS SO PROUD TO SEE SUCH A WELL BEHAVED CHILD ❤
If I saw a no kids restaurant, there's a 0% chance, negative even, I'd go there without my child or recommend to anyone or that grown child would go. Literally treated worse than pets!
I'm korean, male, not married, old enough.
that Court decision ruined everything. discrimination is just discrimination.
change one word in 'no-kids zone' can be very serious level of racism.
In that case, The parent should be punished by child abusing. and any kind of no-xxx zone should not be allowed.
10-20 years ago, in korea, every parents don't let their kids do crazy things. it's like "we have something to talk about, when we r back home"
and even neighbor took care of other family child.
I think Government set budget in baby-sitting part. Mom and Dad can go out freely while kids at home.
things going crazy these days.
I understand it about some hotel where people really need to relax
It’s a niche 😊 a coffee shop owner could put a sticker at the entrance „kids friendly“ - so customer can decide if their like to visit this establishment or not…
The best part of this whole talk is 6:57
I never let my kids run amok in a restaurant, store with breakables and other public establishments. To ruin someone else's dining experience is taboo!
My parents are from Nigeria and I was born in the States. As an African, I’m offended by not treating children like they are the precious treasures that they are, even when they are sometimes annoying. We were all children at some point and we should give them a lot of grace. As an American, i’m disgusted by how much we’ve allowed capitalism to take away our humanity to the point that people don’t see babies or children regularly, so a child crying is shocking.
What have we done to ourselves?
South Africa is child and family friendly. Some restaurants have play areas with a screen parents watch while eating. Malls sometimes have child friendly places as well. But I guess it works because I have never heard of law suits. Even wine farms are child friendly. 🤣
I think you can get rid of "no kid zones" so long as there is a mechanism to enforce good faith effort parenting when parents choose to take their kids out to establishments. You can't expect store owners to willingly bear extra risk that can potentially bankrupt them over parents' failings.
Aa a parent of 2 kids in Korea, I 100% support no kids zones. I dont want to bring mu kids to places they are not wanted. I would rather owners just be explicit about it
In practice, there are very few places I would want to take them that they are not allowed. I am not trying to bring them to a bar or restaurant with food they wouldn't want to eat anyway. Most places actively welcome me with my kids.
Here in the US we have kid free places but we have lot family places too for parents
Before you mentioned the case, I was not for no-kids zone. But after hearing about the case, I am for no-kids zone. I also disagree with the ruling of the court.
No. I’m cool with no kids allowed at the restaurant. There are a lot of parents who have no control of their children.
In NZ, its law to have access to accessibility rest rooms ♿. So having like shared facilities between businesses would be the solution.
💢
We need to implement no kid zones in the US. It is not ideal when you are paying for an expensive meal and you have to listen to children screaming the entire time. They exist in the West but it is extremely limited.
This is a channel I like!
Even though the discussion gets a bit political, it would be interesting to listen to people in other countries