Asset Allocation ETFs: Vanguard vs. iShares (VBAL, VGRO, VEQT, XBAL, XGRO, XEQT)
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- Опубликовано: 16 дек 2020
- In this video, Justin helps Canadian investors choose between the hugely popular Vanguard and iShares Asset Allocation ETFs (VCIP, VCNS, VBAL, VGRO, VEQT, XINC, XCNS, XBAL, XGRO, XEQT).
Please feel free to download the model portfolios from my blog before getting started:
www.canadianportfoliomanagerbl...
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@@tianyuw6330 - Fantastic news! Thank you for supporting such a great cause (and for tuning in to the channel :)
Excellent content, really well-made and really appreciate this type of material. Keep it up!
@Alex P - Thanks! There's more great videos in the works, so stay tuned!
Holy XMAS, amazing breakdown! I've been wanting to research these ETFs more. Thank you!
@Kandre - I'm so glad you found the video useful - thanks for watching!
You always break down the ETF'S in a clear and concise manner - good job 👏
@Marko Koskenoja - Thank you so much! :)
Great video. Right to the point, and addressing common questions. Love your speaking style, and professionalism. I'm just starting out, so pretty nervous with investing. Thank you to you and your wife, Shannon!
@Moiez Ismail - We're so glad you liked the video! Thanks for your positive feedback :)
This was explained so well! Thanks so much for making this video 👍
I love these asset allocation ETFs. I'm 100% VEQT with my RRSP and TFSA and have been thinking of adding VAB as I get closer to retirement. Kind of a light/ridiculous model portfolio. Great video Justin! Keep it up! Your channel is absolutely underrated!
@Daniel J - Thanks for watching! These AA ETFs certainly make DIY investing a breeze :)
I've been spinning my wheels trying to figure out how to rebalance my portfolio of ETFs and was unsure transferring over to an Asset Allocation ETF. Thanks for the fantastic explanation, you're the best!
@pauldeegee - I'm happy I could be of some assistance with your decision :)
maxed my tfsa with only vgro and will def contribute every year :D
Thanks for all your great videos, you're a gem for Canadian investors.
Should the payout ratio of the funds impact the decision to choose XEQT over VEQT? For example, XEQT pays out quarterly and with DRIP, would that result in an advantage over VEQT because of a faster compounding effect?
What does VEQT do with the cash distributions of its holdings until it pays them out annually (other than rebalancing)?
Thanks you so much for another great informative video. Happy Holidays my investment angel 😇
@Imran Khan - Happy holidays to you as well :)
how does this video only have 21k views (great video Justin!)
@Patrick Hamlyn - Thanks for watching! (and increasing the # of views ;)
I picked XEQT because my philosophy is when 2 options are almost identical, focus on the factor you can control. Really, the only controllable factor is the MER, so even though it is a tiny difference, it is the only thing I have actionable control over.
why XEQT above XGRO?
@ventorro8805 probably because it's 100% equity
Why is 100% equity better than VGRO or XGRO?
This is a fantastic review. Thank you.
thanks for the awesome breakdown!
Thank you for your work. Very clear, Now on I will follow your sight.
@Jean So - Thanks for following the channel! :)
Hey Justin thanks for this video and wishing you all the best for Xmas and 2021. VBAL for the win!
@Julien Tousignant - Right back at you, Julien! Fingers crossed for a better year ahead :)
Very well done! Great job!!
Great content as usual!
@tigana - Thank you so much (and thanks for watching)!
the videos you are making are VERY interesting! I don't understand why you don't have more subscribers! Maybe they are too technical and people rather gamble in the market, buying AC at 50$ and selling it at 10? anyway, thank you for sharing your knowledge!
@B B - If you build it, they will come ;)
Thanks for the compliment! Happy to share :)
This is great. Thank you.
@Harry BC - You're very welcome, Harry - I'm glad you found it helpful :)
Really enjoyed and shared your videos comparing Vanguard, iShares, & BMO asset allocation ETFs. Plus the extra video about the TD ones. Excellent.
Wondering if you have any opinions (or is there a video?) about Horizons ETFs (HCON, HBAL,HGRO). Big fan of the Horizons total return ETFs in the taxable account, and am now looking at their one-click. From what I understand HGRO is composed of the total return ETFs. I understand the TRI ones have an added cost because of the swap, but not sure I understand all the implications. Any thoughts?
@RL Bee - I haven't created a video yet (it's on the list), but here's a great blog about the Horizons AA ETFs in the meantime: canadiancouchpotato.com/2021/02/26/inside-the-horizons-one-ticket-etfs/
Do you include dividends in return. Would I add 10% +1.5% or so with dividends when projecting?
I have everything in my TFSA in VFV. Wish I had started 5-10 years earlier 🤷♂️
@XpertTrading - It's not too late to consider diversifying your TFSA with an asset allocation ETF ;)
very helpful, do you know of any tech etfs traded on TSX?
Hey JB - please consider back testing the Vanguard VRIF ETF as you referenced in this video re the older asset allocation ETF'S.
@Marko Koskenoja - I'll certainly consider it :)
Another great video Justin. Always very informative and succinct. Thank you for sharing. I just built a portfolio based on VGRO but I ended up buying the funds individually. I did this because I wanted to drop a couple of the bonds and replace VCN with XIC (I just preferred the exposure of XIC). I added ZDB as my only bond fund. I also wanted to be responsible for adjusting the asset allocation and rebalancing myself. The total weighted MER is about 0.14%. I don't really have a question but maybe you have some thoughts on my approach?
@Jeff Silver: No issues at all with your approach (as long as you're comfortable with it). We build our client portfolios with the individual ETF components (mostly for lower fees, asset location optimization, tax-efficient fixed income investing, reduced foreign withholding taxes, etc.)
@@JustinBenderCPM Thanks Justin! For now, I'm comfortable with it :) Looking forward to your next video. Thanks again!
@@JustinBenderCPM Hi Justin, any thoughts on the S&P index vs. the CRSP index for tracking the total US market? As a follow-up, any thoughts on the possible advantages of breaking down a US total market ETF fund (e.g. VUN) buy purchasing US small-cap, mid-cap, and large-cap ETFs? Or do you already have a video on this? :) Thank you Justin!
@Jeff Silver - The S&P Total Market Index and the CRSP U.S. Total Market Index are nearly identical, so ETFs that follow either index would be expected to have similar risk and returns.
I wouldn't expect there to be any advantage of breaking up a total market ETF into its component parts.
@@JustinBenderCPM Great! Thank you so much Justin. Happy Holidays! Looking forward to your next video!
I shares significantly underweights their emerging markets Equity allocation relative to vanguard and overweights developed markets. Sticking with vanguard on this one point!
@Steven - I'm glad the video helped solidify your initial decision :)
This video easily made me love Vanguard ETFs - automatic rebalancing and not underweighing emerging market? I AM IN.
Do you think it's redundant to have VGRO and VFV if I want to overweight on US?
@Aubrey Bondoc - If you have VGRO, you already have adequate exposure to large-cap U.S. stocks (one of the single greatest benefits of one-ticket asset allocation ETFs is that you just need to purchase one ETF ;)
Nice video.
Would you recommend to have two asset allocations?
For example one from vanguard and one from ishares (maybe in two different brokerages)in terms of backup; in addition, one being conservative AA for income and the other being growth AA for long term.
I understand that it increases the trading costs as we contribute two AAs.
Regarding contributions to an asset allocation, since bank owned brokerage charges trading costs, would you suggest to contribute larger amount few times per year rather than smaller amount monthly/biweekly.
Would you suggest to use the bank owned brokerage? If not, which brokerage is the best in Canada? please
If an asset allocation ETF (or some of its underlying ETFs) ends (by small chance) for whatever reason, would they refund us back a reasonable amount?
Thank you so much
@Amir - Unless you have different investment objectives for your money, there's no need to combine a conservative and a growth AA ETF:
www.canadianportfoliomanagerblog.com/choosing-your-ideal-vanguard-asset-allocation-etf/
If you're using a brokerage with lower trading costs to purchase ETFs (like Questrade), then monthly or biweekly contributions are fine.
Every brokerage has their pros and cons - here's a comparison:
www.theglobeandmail.com/investing/markets/inside-the-market/article-the-2021-globe-and-mail-online-brokerage-ranking-whos-best-for/
If an ETF were to close down, you would receive the net asset value per share (the current fair value) for your ETF units.
Thanks!
@Tianyuw - You're very welcome!
Hey Justin, happy new year and thanks for this video! One question, do you know if Questrade allows auto-pilot with VGRO purchases? Currently I have a PAD set with them through my bank but I still have to go in and make purchases manually; the only automated transactions I have set up are with their DRIP. Thanks again, be well.
@Vito C - Happy new year to you and your family as well! :)
Questrade allows a PACC program for XGRO (but not for VGRO).
@@JustinBenderCPM thought that may be the case. Hopefully one day.
If I invest in VEQT or VGRO my portofolio is subject to the 15% foreign withholding tax?
Hi Justin and Shannon! A huge fan of your content, and not sure if you are going to read this. But there is a question i had, and not sure where to ask it. Lets say if i decide to go with XIC, VFV and VIU approach instead of a complete global market ETF. Would my returns in general be much lower. As in, am i doing myself a disservice? My thinking is that one asset allocation would be very senstitive to markets up and down more so that individual holding right? so if US markets are down, XEQT (for example) takes a larger hit? But having indiivudal holding means i can rebalance how i feel comfortable? i dont know if im missing a point here, and apologize if this is a dumb question. Just starting off :)
@Abbas - Thanks for stopping by the channel! Not a dumb question at all. The overall return of your ETF combo (XIC + VFV + VIU) will depend on your chosen target asset class weights and their respective returns.
An asset allocation ETF, like XEQT, targets a 25% allocation to Canadian equities (like XIC), a 45% allocation to U.S. equities (like VFV), a 25% allocation to international equities (like VIU) and a 5% allocation to emerging markets (which you wouldn't have).
If you luckily overweight the best performing asset classes, and underweight the worst performing asset classes, relative to XEQT, you could hypothetically outperform the fund.
However, it is impossible to know in advance which asset classes will outperform going forward, which is why most investors just stick with a one-fund ETF, like XEQT.
@@JustinBenderCPM Thank you for the quick reply! OK i understand now, this helps
Newb here, thanks for the comparison! Since these ETFs hold some US stocks, are the dividends subject to tax in a tfsa account? Trying to calculate for Drip.
I don’t think so , did you find an answer?
I currently have positions in VFV, XIC and VDY. I'm having issues on deciding how much to allocating to each. Would it be simpler more efficient and more beneficial to just invest in vgro instead for a long term hold for retirement ? I would be DCA for the next 20 or so years !
@Nelson Rodrigues - Investing in an asset allocation ETF certainly has the benefit of reducing the number of decisions you need to make regarding your portfolio allocations.
Hi new to the channel and to investing. Love the content so thank you. Quick question for a new investor. Does it make sense to invest in two funds such as VGRO and VBAL for a balance between more aggressive growth approach vs more balanced conservative? I hope I, asking the question correctly? Thank you !
@Raz_Peach - If you're targeting a 70% equity / 30% fixed income portfolio, that would make sense.
Check out my model portfolios, which use the same approach for those "in-between" allocations:
www.canadianportfoliomanagerblog.com/model-etf-portfolios/
@@JustinBenderCPM thanks. Ok makes sense. Thanks Justin! I think I will stick to the one ETF approach with XGRO or VGRO at 89/20 roster my journey. Appreciate the advice.
Sorry meant 80/20
Justin, thanks a ton, big fan of you and Ben.
Question, at what dollar point would it make sense to split up the asset allocation ETF into individual ETF and do the rebalancing yourself? Personally my methodology calculated that when the cost of the MER (in asset allocation) > MER + trading commission on all individual ETFs (on a yearly basis) then it makes sense to split the asset allocation to individual ETFs (eg., ZAG, VCN, XUU, etc). Perhaps a video on this?
take care and stay safe!
@Marcello Nesca - The largest product fee and foreign withholding tax savings would occur by splitting up an asset allocation ETF in your RRSP, and purchasing U.S.-based foreign equity ETFs (using the Norbert's gambit strategy for converting your CAD to USD, and back again).
I've written about this strategy on the CPM blog (it comes with many caveats, and should likely only be considered when the RRSP value is ~$200,000 or higher):
www.canadianportfoliomanagerblog.com/breaking-up-with-your-vanguard-asset-allocation-etf/
@@JustinBenderCPM Thank you kindly, will read up on this.
What do you recommend for purchasing strategies with all-in-one ETFs (buy once a month, bi-weekly, weekly, etc)? Assume no trading fee’s, is there a huge benefit to averaging out more frequently?
@Daniel Tojcic - I would recommend investing your cash whenever you get paid. So if it's monthly ... monthly. If it's bi-weekly ... bi-weekly.
Unless you can predict the future (no one can), there's no benefit to trying to time your purchases.
Hi Justin, great video. Would a VBAL or XBAL still make sense on a large taxable account given the fixed income component?
@Joe M - Thanks! Although VBAL or XBAL are expected to be slightly less tax-efficient than holding a more tax-efficient bond ETF, the tax drag is likely to be minimal - perhaps around 0.10% after-tax:
www.canadianportfoliomanagerblog.com/tax-efficiency-of-vanguards-asset-allocation-etfs/
@@JustinBenderCPM Thank you !!
I tried to set up the PACC to purchase XBAL at Questrade and was advised that they never heard of such thing. Can you provide some details on how to go about setting it up?
@Paul Cheng:
www.reddit.com/r/PersonalFinanceCanada/comments/an6sf4/has_anyone_set_up_pacc_for_xgro/efvp1wd/
Is this still a good option in 2024? 41 looking to work till 65. Probably go back to work cause im bored lol
I get that the equity to fixed income allocations are set in stone for these funds (e.g. xgro is 80 20), but would these funds ever shift their innee allocations (e.g. ishares to include foreign bonds, non-US) for whatever reason? Or is that set in stone too?
@Ari Frydman - The specific asset class allocations are not set in stone, so Vanguard or iShares could change them at some point in the future (although I hope they don't do this anytime soon, or I'll need to re-do the video ;)
This is one of the reasons that I decided to buy the funds (or most of them) individually so I could adjust the allocation as much and as often as I like. I'm currently at 90/10. Having said that, I do not plan on playing with the allocation at all, but I like the flexibility and freedom of being able to do it myself, if I ever want to. :)
Are these suitable for multiple combined accounts (RRSP's x2, TFSA x2, non registered) totaling in the 7 figures?
@Scott Clarke - Absolutely. It may not be the most optimal set-up (from an asset location, product fee and foreign withholding tax perspective), but it's still a great option.
Hi there, planning to buy some etfs in my rrsp account that I won't touch for another 25 years. Do you recommend I go XEQT or VEQT ? Or do both 50 percent? Or do 30 percent vgro?
@Amy - How to Choose Your Asset Allocation ETF: ruclips.net/video/JyOqqtq12jQ/видео.html
Justin, is there a point where you might consider the MER relevant? Trying to imagine the day that I have the coveted "million dollars" to invest.
One other thing, I actually think I took away the wrong message from your expected returns / CAPE ratio video. It made it seem like less US exposure might be wise (hence preferring Vanguard) but in this video, my takeaway is that over a long time horizon, it doesn't matter. I'm still not 100% sure I get why though.
@Kar Yung Tom - The total MER is certainly relevant, but an MER difference of just 0.05% seems really small (I doubt I'd give it a second thought). The other slight differences between the iShares and Vanguard AA ETFs will likely impact the returns more than a 0.05% MER difference.
The main takeaway from my expected returns video was for investors to prepare themselves for lower returns going forward. It was not meant to be a market-timing or asset class weighting tool. U.S. equities have been overvalued for more than 5 years, and yet someone who underweighted them in their portfolio 5 years ago based on the CAPE ratio would have underperformed a more passive strategy.
@@JustinBenderCPM You're the best! Happily subscribed. I guess to me, since I am just a noob investor, I don't have an opinion on the other differences, so I just go with the lower MER as a default. Is that bad? I guess in your opinion, it's not bad but would net the same expected result as flipping a coin. LOL
@Kar Yung Tom - If the lower MER of the iShares Core ETF Portfolios helps you make a decision and start investing, I think that's totally fine! :)
@@JustinBenderCPM overvalued? More like expensive...
Hi Justin, How often does Vanguard and iShares change their strategic asset mix or rebalance to the the original asset mix weights?
@Eri Gjoka - Vanguard and iShares both have the ability to adjust their strategic asset mix, but so far, they haven't made any changes (I wouldn't expect any significant changes on the horizon either).
I discuss both ETF providers' rebalancing strategies in the video.
thanks for the prompt response @@JustinBenderCPM.
With interest rates so low, is the balanced portfolio ( 50/50) obsolete?
@HamiltonRb - Absolutely not. Most investors cannot handle 100% equity risk, and most of them will also need to live off of their investments in retirement (the dividend yield will not be enough), so they will need a portion of their portfolio allocated to safer fixed income and cash investments.
Low interest rates suck, but it doesn't change investors' need for fixed income securities.
Hi Justin. I just found your page and. Videos very informative and was Curious if this is still applicable now I was looking to get an all in one ETF I had about $20,000 I want to put into xeqt. Or is there a better option now any recommendations?
@nels fran - Welcome to the channel! The asset allocation ETFs from iShares and Vanguard are still great options. You could also consider the BMO and Mackenzie asset allocation ETFs, but all four companies have very similar product offerings.
Thank you for the reply back great videos There are so many it’s so confusing now I just saw another one of your videos about index now I’m thinking of going that way I just opened a Bmo
Direct and not sure if I should get a all in one etf or index I was considering vun or vti any thoughts ? Would help
@@nelsfran3906 - If you're confused (which is understandable, as this stuff hurts my head), don't start choosing individual ETFs - just focus on all-in-one asset allocation ETFs.
I have e-Series... just a few thousand for myself in a TFSA and about $24,000 in RESPs for two children. I am thinking about getting out of the e-Series because these funds are clearly cheaper. Should I? As well, where would others recommend I buy them? Through Questrade, my current bank (TD), elsewhere? Thanks! By the way, this is really good content...I am recommending this video series to others. Thanks for it and giving back to the community by donating to Sick Kids.
@R R - You're very welcome! Thanks for sharing the channel with others :)
The TD e-Series are great products as well, so don't feel like you necessarily need to make a switch to asset allocation ETFs.
If you do end up making the switch, Questrade is a good option, as they don't charge annual fees on RESP accounts (many brokerages have an additional fee for this account type).
@@JustinBenderCPM okay, thanks... and for ourselves? the wife and I have a modest TFSA investment with TD e-Series. I've read that until the investment gets to a certain size (+50k?) then ETFs aren't necessary. The e-series are good. But, I think i am only buying one fund ((the whole point of AA ETFs I suppose?) - something like VGRO (or the iShares equivalent). I hear National Bank just waived all fees... I could still buy the ETF through TD Webbroker. Or, Questtrade?
My husband has VGRO in his RRSP and l have XBAL in my TFSA.. with the yield curve inverted, should l be in a 40% bond weighting.? I have been thinking of switching to a 20%. Thank you
@Diana Hahn - I would suggest revisiting your risk tolerance (not making active decisions based on hunches) - here's a video to assist you:
ruclips.net/video/JyOqqtq12jQ/видео.html
Thank you
Wish TD direct would offer something free for investing in ETFs just like Scotia is. TD should consider partnering with vanguard now that RBC is promoting Blackrocks ishares ETFs.
@Niran Abraham - TD does offer commission-free trading for their TD ETFs via their GoalAssist program:
www.td.com/ca/en/investing/direct-investing/services/goalassist/
Based off CAPE and US expected to have lower returns in future would vanguards be a better choice for equities over ishares?
@Chris - U.S. equities have been overvalued relative to Canadian equities for at least 5 years now - anyone who tried to implement a market timing strategy based on the CAPE would have been very disappointed with their performance (as they would have underweighted one of the best performing asset classes - U.S. equities).
@@JustinBenderCPM So what you are saying CAPE isn't really a good predictor of what will happen in the future it just tells us if something is overvalued? In that case it seems the lower allocation in Canadian equities by iShares take cake since even if Canada grows from just 3% of market share we would still be in a strong home bias but holding Canadian equities at 25% is closer to market representation while still having a decent home bias. Thoughts?
@@chris9053 - There's no possible way to accurately predict which allocation to Canada will be the optimal one (so I wouldn't give it more thought). But a 5% difference in weight is not something to agonize over.
If I have USD, is it better to buy VT or convert it to CAD and purchase XEQT or VEQT? Does it even matter? Thanks!
@Kevin Lin - First off, VT is not equivalent to XEQT or VEQT (VT allocates ~3% to Canadian stocks, while XEQT allocates 25% and VEQT allocates 30%), so their future returns will differ.
Second, the account you are holding VT in is also relevant. For example, there are some foreign withholding tax advantages of holding VT in an RRSP (be sure to check out my video on foreign withholding taxes):
ruclips.net/video/NSkub4OqkuM/видео.html
@@JustinBenderCPM Thank you for your reply, I'll take a look!
Can I buy these funds on wealth simple? Better to buy the Canadian ones? To prevent the exchange?
@Amy N - You can buy these on any Canadian discount brokerage platform. New investors should generally avoid U.S.-based ETFs (to avoid the foreign currency conversion fees).
XEQT FYI!
Some brokerages, such as Qtrade, offer no fees to purchase/sell XBAL or XGRO (unlike VBAL or VGRO). This can save you money in the long term if you're planning to make multiple transactions.
@SirMango - I made reference to this in the video at 8:14
@@JustinBenderCPM Oups! I missed that. I'm currently trying to set up PACC with Qtrade. I'll let you know if it works out.
@SirMango - Sounds great! I would be interested if it works at Qtrade (I tested it out this year at Questrade, and it worked as expected).
@@JustinBenderCPM Justin - any opinion on WealthSimple Trade as an additional way to get completely free ETF/stock trading?
@@domr5976 - Questrade already offers basically free ETF purchases, so I don't see Wealthsimple Trade as anything special. In fact, offering free stock trades will likely cause investors to trade too often, which can be harmful.
Which one should i pick now? Im 40 years old
Either one. I like ishares because it's slightly cheaper and has done better over the last five years
XEQT gang
May I dare disagree with one statement? At the beginning you mention asset allocation ETFs are for smallish portfolios. Is this based on the higher MER than the individual ETFs and on tax location?
If so I offer an alternate perspective: In comparison to 2% active management fees, these ETFs are a bargain at all portfolio sizes. If you have a large portfolio, isn’t a less stressful life worth more than slightly higher fees? Regarding tax, given the limited benefits of the Plaid model, isn’t time at least as valuable as money if you have a large portfolio?
I say this as someone who just moved a parent away from high fee investing to asset allocation ETFs in direct investing. Yes individual ETFs can offer advantages. However, she is still far better off with this simple solution that won’t complicate her life.
Please correct me if I don’t understand. I wish to learn.
Note: My Mom is investing in both *CNS, holding 5 years worth of withdrawals, and the rest in *GRO. The thinking being she can withdraw from *CNS when equity prices are lower and from *GRO when equity prices are fair. Any problems with this?
Love your content. You are doing society a great service!
@D K - I couldn't agree more with you :) For most investors (with any size portfolio), holding a single asset allocation ETF is likely the best solution overall.
In terms of holding *CNS and *GRO, this kind of defeats the simplicity of a single asset allocation ETF. Wouldn't it be just as simple to hold a bond ETF and a 100% equity asset allocation ETF (and rebalance and withdraw from them accordingly?
@@JustinBenderCPM Thanks! I understand your point about using an *EQT ETF along side a separate bond ETF. You are right, that is a better way to go. I just needed that nudge in my internal debate. Particularly in this somewhat unique time where we have guaranteed interest rate increases coming this year. Having separate bond ETF(s) allows for bond decisions separate from equity decisions. Thanks again!
South Korea is developed - Blackrock should send their analyst to South Korea. For example, Just looks at dominance of Samsung, kia and Hyundai. Vangaurd has got this right.
@Niran Abraham - There are other factors MSCI considers before reclassifying Korea as a developed market:
www.kedglobal.com/newsView/ked202106220006
@@JustinBenderCPM i learn so much from you. Thank you for the article. I see MSCI point of view. I’ll pick a side MSCI or FTSE and go with it
@@JustinBenderCPM Hi Justin
Have a request and I’ve been wanting to ask you for while. Are you able to give me your thoughts on XID etf. It’s an etf focused on India, the country where I come from.
@@niranmojo - We generally avoid single country emerging markets ETFs (preferring to gain exposure to EM through a more-diversified emerging markets ETF, like XEC or VEE).
@@JustinBenderCPM
I did take your advice on the emerging market etf and I own the VEE etf 70 hares or 6% of my TFSA portfolio. There is a small allocation for India in the ETF.
I was considering this ETF more so to give back to my country of birth.
Another reason it’s a ETF from Blackrock hence I figured it would be worth mentioning
Screw bonds
@Petey - Thanks for the useless (and sexually graphic) recommendation.
Lmao