Also, just want to point out I really appreciate the non mtg episodes. I know it's not great for the channel but please keep sprinkling them every now and again! Much appreciated
I agree, I find that I tend to disagree with a lot of their takes on mtg, but I love listening to them I would love to hear less mtg content and more general gaming and design takes
While listening to you talk about Death Stranding, I realized something. This has been done in gaming... specifically in sports. It's basically the video game equivalent of dribbling. Basketball would be boring if you could just carry the ball with you, there just isn't much opportunity to disrupt the person with the ball (especially without any sort of tackling allowed). It creates a skill to learn and master, and provides the opponent/game designer a route to create obstacles/disrupt you. Walking is simple, walking while having to balance stuff takes a tiny bit more skill, but now steep hills become an obstacle, enemies you have to fight throw off your ability to balance, etc.
The tactile feeling of the authentic Asteroids cabinet i got to play when the physics department professor who owns it brought it out to the science building on campus's open house day is such a superior experience to recreations of the game for mouse and keyboard or even just handheld controllers.
I played some of Death Stranding, and one thing it did really well was that it was super transparent about trying to create a unique user experience. It wasn't trying to gaslight you into thinking it was supposed to feel like playing Horizon: Zero Dawn or Assassin's Creed.
i really enjoy your conversations. as someone who is hoping to start working on some personal games after i get my degree next year it is very enlightening seeing you discuss many of the pitfalls i will run into. you discussed them, but there is no way i will not make some of the mistakes.
Helldivers 2 has some of the best feeling controls in a game (for myself and in recent memory). The sluggishness and weight of your actions is subtle but reinforces the fact that you arent on par with the Xenos you are fighting. Helldivers are a desperate measure of high firepower (stratagems) with a weak, fleshy targeting package (the helldiver). I think it bodes well for shooters in the future.
I will make a few points as an indie dev, A lot of the reasons why games are less experimental and more samey is because we have 40+ years of games. It's hard to create a genuinely new genre as the medium has been explored heavily. We're past the exploration stage and into the city builder stage. It'll be very rare to find a game that is genuinely new and innovative, they'll all be derivative of what has been. Built on these internalized knowledge. Now it's about being able to efficiently maximize and elaborate on these ideas. Imo. That's why things like game jams and GDC are important. And as you two say, these internalized knowledge helps players to learn the game and experience it. Imo I think part of the problem is, players and devs are trying to "explore", find brand new experiences, when the goal should be on creating unique and immersive experiences, even if the core is the same as X other game, how you experience it, the atmosphere, ludonarrative, the story, the presentation. That's what developers should aim to deliver. With RDR2 and Dark Souls, I think they do capture this idea of leaning on known norms but pushing the player to have a specific, unique experience. I do agree with Forrest's takes on the industry a lot too. It's funny because YGO is one of the most unique TCGs and few lean on any of the elements it created. Even funnier that YGO slowly went away from some of those unique aspects I love, like trap cards, set cards, ritual monsters, etc.
It’s interesting to see where the innovation is coming from. Changing the narrative experience is easy, the interaction less so. Games as a medium are strange in that way. You sit and watch a movie, you don’t have to learn to do that every time. I think we’re seeing the stagnation because of that resistance, but learning is what makes games great.
Do you feel the same towards both tabletop and video games? Tabletop is thousands of years old, but some innovation was made in more recent years. Part of me thinks being derivative is part of how the mind works. Complete innovation is beyond our experience
I think Katamari Damacy is a good example of a game people should play to try and break out of this idea of what a game is "supposed" to be. Even at the time, controls were solidifying around a general standard of how you control your character in a game and Katamari was unique in how different it's controls are and what you're doing in the game.
Tangential to this discussion on different control schemes for games, would you consider one day touching on rhythm/music games like Crypto of the Necro dancer or Patapon ?
the way that traversal contributes to things like immersion and sense of the scope of the player's size, ability, fragility, and influence on the environment and the narrative at play is something i really value with the caveat that i haven't even actually watched more than a few seconds of the gameplay in Death Stranding let alone tried out playing it myself, i doubt that i'd really enjoy the overall package even if the traversal sounds like something i could love as a core defining feature of another game's world. i would very much like the chance to play something like a high or low fantasy open world game with moderate to strong emphasis on survival mechanics and very carefully limited to nonexistent fast travel that went in on the kind of traversal inspired by Death Stranding and/or that climbing game. Firewatch was another title worth mentioning on the list of down-to-earth traversal-centered gameplay loops. And i suppose Subnautica. i'll have to remind myself to give the Wildlander Wabajack mod for Skyrim a shot, even if the 1.2 update lamentably hasn't and may never arrive with the extra features that i was eagerly waiting on for so long. or Outward. Or The Long Dark? Or even Road Warden i very much want something that delivers the immersion and satisfaction of mastering a legitimate level of challenge and danger associated with moving from A to B as well as being able to survive that attrition well enough to stand up to whatever task or trial awaits at the destination. for the act of covering the ground and getting where you need to go to do the job is in itself an integral and respectable part of the profession. Sklyrim, even with an entire heavy survival-focused overhaul, still isn't equipped to reach the kind of fundamental ground-up integration of traversal that i'm looking for here, although it puts it a lot more in line with that preparation and attritional aspect. Those other titles aren't exactly Death Stranding, either, but it'll be worth pulling them off the backlog shelf. Oh, this actually reminds me that i was really digging the very early game of Icarus, making sure i had the basics: a supply of oxygen and food, basic protective outfit including boots, and rudimentary weapons sufgicient to defend from wolves and bears, setting course in the direction of your mission objective scanner coordinates, and then the feeling of setting out over the rolling terrain, climbing rises, surveying and spotting the chokepoint passes youd need to waypoint through, scouting out where your drinking water sources were to fall back to, and just generally having a good trot out in nature for the duration that you were in motion and just keeping a steady eye and discipline on your stamina meter relative to your sightlines to make sure no predators could catch you unaware while gasping for breath after burst running too hard and far. As well as establishing competence and confidence in performing the dance of combat with each type and number of enemy type that did manage to get the jump on you or that you decided to go through rather than around. Helps that it was the first highly graphically demanding game, and especially immersive sim, that i jumped into after finally getting a proper 202X desktop PC to migrate to from my old 2014 laptop. Some of the same floaty-glidy gameyness feel from like Skyrim started to come back as i pragmatically dumped my stat points into stamina and movespeed values for both sheer distance covering and mobility in combat particularly as a lone traveler with no one to be in formation alongside and cover my flanks. Been trying to think about how i want to try setting my difficulty level selection mission to mission and have some self-measurement on how often i put points into movement, tankiness, and damage dealing to thread the needle of balance to preserve that feeling i love without it all ending up feeling super arbitrary.
God, I have so much to say on this subject, I can barely even start. We're stuck in this so bad that we keep remaking games to feel like current year AAA experiences out of a fear that current players won't touch anything else. I crave the opportunity to explore new systems with unique tactile properties but so many people reflexively dismiss anything that feels unfamiliar. I say banish terms like "clunky" or "outdated" from your vocabulary. Embrace things that feel a little bit strange. If something really is just bad, be more precise with your language than "clunky." Anyways, play Penny's Big Breakaway.
This was the problem I had with the latest Starwars card game. It was mechanically sound but it felt like a bunch of "fixed" ideas with a Starwars skin. Not like the 90's one with it's complex cinematic play style and "the force" being an actual game system.
I really want someone to take different game environments without recognizable content (a single tree or shrub or mountain) and have them compared side by side. Then have players guess what games they belong to because I hypothesize players would be surprised by the (in)accuracy. Games visually blend for me for this generation of gaming
Monster Hunter always seems to be left out of these discussions, so I just want to shout it out as the points presented could bery well translate into that whole series. With that said, shoutout to my man Monster Hunter, new instalment coming whatever of february
Monster Hunter is a series that, to me, stands out a lot in terms of how it controls. Especially the pre Monster Hunter World titles. The controls feel purposefuly clunky, even for their time, and the weapons feel super heavy. I feel like Dark Souls learned a lot from it in terms of character controls tbh
Very true watching the game awards was pretty depressing... my bias has always been that this naturally occurs when teams get too big. The great designers are mostly great because of the simple fact that their artistic vision survives the process of delegation (normally via extreme micro-managing). The same phenomenon occurs in every creative industry.
I hate games that slow my character down. It feels like it just doesn't value my time. There are games i am in because of the story. There are games i am in because of the action. I am personally not in any game to experience walking along slowly to get to the next POI. I do understand that i need to walk around for immersion and pacing but please don't make it painfully slow. If there is someting awsome or interesting i will pause and stay looking at it. But i want that to be my own decision.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
Also, just want to point out I really appreciate the non mtg episodes. I know it's not great for the channel but please keep sprinkling them every now and again! Much appreciated
Agree!
Wait this wasn't about Magic the Gathering?
Yeah, as somebody who likes game design but hasn't played MTG i found this channel and was hooked!
I think short term it's probably not great for views, but long term it opens up new audiences.
I agree, I find that I tend to disagree with a lot of their takes on mtg, but I love listening to them I would love to hear less mtg content and more general gaming and design takes
While listening to you talk about Death Stranding, I realized something. This has been done in gaming... specifically in sports. It's basically the video game equivalent of dribbling. Basketball would be boring if you could just carry the ball with you, there just isn't much opportunity to disrupt the person with the ball (especially without any sort of tackling allowed). It creates a skill to learn and master, and provides the opponent/game designer a route to create obstacles/disrupt you. Walking is simple, walking while having to balance stuff takes a tiny bit more skill, but now steep hills become an obstacle, enemies you have to fight throw off your ability to balance, etc.
Great insight! That’s a really interesting connection.
The tactile feeling of the authentic Asteroids cabinet i got to play when the physics department professor who owns it brought it out to the science building on campus's open house day is such a superior experience to recreations of the game for mouse and keyboard or even just handheld controllers.
I played some of Death Stranding, and one thing it did really well was that it was super transparent about trying to create a unique user experience. It wasn't trying to gaslight you into thinking it was supposed to feel like playing Horizon: Zero Dawn or Assassin's Creed.
💯
i really enjoy your conversations. as someone who is hoping to start working on some personal games after i get my degree next year it is very enlightening seeing you discuss many of the pitfalls i will run into.
you discussed them, but there is no way i will not make some of the mistakes.
Helldivers 2 has some of the best feeling controls in a game (for myself and in recent memory). The sluggishness and weight of your actions is subtle but reinforces the fact that you arent on par with the Xenos you are fighting. Helldivers are a desperate measure of high firepower (stratagems) with a weak, fleshy targeting package (the helldiver). I think it bodes well for shooters in the future.
I will make a few points as an indie dev,
A lot of the reasons why games are less experimental and more samey is because we have 40+ years of games. It's hard to create a genuinely new genre as the medium has been explored heavily. We're past the exploration stage and into the city builder stage.
It'll be very rare to find a game that is genuinely new and innovative, they'll all be derivative of what has been. Built on these internalized knowledge. Now it's about being able to efficiently maximize and elaborate on these ideas. Imo. That's why things like game jams and GDC are important.
And as you two say, these internalized knowledge helps players to learn the game and experience it. Imo I think part of the problem is, players and devs are trying to "explore", find brand new experiences, when the goal should be on creating unique and immersive experiences, even if the core is the same as X other game, how you experience it, the atmosphere, ludonarrative, the story, the presentation. That's what developers should aim to deliver. With RDR2 and Dark Souls, I think they do capture this idea of leaning on known norms but pushing the player to have a specific, unique experience.
I do agree with Forrest's takes on the industry a lot too.
It's funny because YGO is one of the most unique TCGs and few lean on any of the elements it created. Even funnier that YGO slowly went away from some of those unique aspects I love, like trap cards, set cards, ritual monsters, etc.
It’s interesting to see where the innovation is coming from. Changing the narrative experience is easy, the interaction less so. Games as a medium are strange in that way. You sit and watch a movie, you don’t have to learn to do that every time. I think we’re seeing the stagnation because of that resistance, but learning is what makes games great.
Do you feel the same towards both tabletop and video games? Tabletop is thousands of years old, but some innovation was made in more recent years.
Part of me thinks being derivative is part of how the mind works. Complete innovation is beyond our experience
FLESH AND BLOOD MENTIONED
Leaving a comment to expand the sphere of people who will see this.
Responding with words to communicate words.
I think Katamari Damacy is a good example of a game people should play to try and break out of this idea of what a game is "supposed" to be. Even at the time, controls were solidifying around a general standard of how you control your character in a game and Katamari was unique in how different it's controls are and what you're doing in the game.
Tangential to this discussion on different control schemes for games, would you consider one day touching on rhythm/music games like Crypto of the Necro dancer or Patapon ?
We’ll add it to the list!
the way that traversal contributes to things like immersion and sense of the scope of the player's size, ability, fragility, and influence on the environment and the narrative at play is something i really value
with the caveat that i haven't even actually watched more than a few seconds of the gameplay in Death Stranding let alone tried out playing it myself, i doubt that i'd really enjoy the overall package even if the traversal sounds like something i could love as a core defining feature of another game's world.
i would very much like the chance to play something like a high or low fantasy open world game with moderate to strong emphasis on survival mechanics and very carefully limited to nonexistent fast travel that went in on the kind of traversal inspired by Death Stranding and/or that climbing game. Firewatch was another title worth mentioning on the list of down-to-earth traversal-centered gameplay loops. And i suppose Subnautica.
i'll have to remind myself to give the Wildlander Wabajack mod for Skyrim a shot, even if the 1.2 update lamentably hasn't and may never arrive with the extra features that i was eagerly waiting on for so long.
or Outward. Or The Long Dark? Or even Road Warden
i very much want something that delivers the immersion and satisfaction of mastering a legitimate level of challenge and danger associated with moving from A to B as well as being able to survive that attrition well enough to stand up to whatever task or trial awaits at the destination. for the act of covering the ground and getting where you need to go to do the job is in itself an integral and respectable part of the profession.
Sklyrim, even with an entire heavy survival-focused overhaul, still isn't equipped to reach the kind of fundamental ground-up integration of traversal that i'm looking for here, although it puts it a lot more in line with that preparation and attritional aspect.
Those other titles aren't exactly Death Stranding, either, but it'll be worth pulling them off the backlog shelf.
Oh, this actually reminds me that i was really digging the very early game of Icarus, making sure i had the basics: a supply of oxygen and food, basic protective outfit including boots, and rudimentary weapons sufgicient to defend from wolves and bears, setting course in the direction of your mission objective scanner coordinates, and then the feeling of setting out over the rolling terrain, climbing rises, surveying and spotting the chokepoint passes youd need to waypoint through, scouting out where your drinking water sources were to fall back to, and just generally having a good trot out in nature for the duration that you were in motion and just keeping a steady eye and discipline on your stamina meter relative to your sightlines to make sure no predators could catch you unaware while gasping for breath after burst running too hard and far. As well as establishing competence and confidence in performing the dance of combat with each type and number of enemy type that did manage to get the jump on you or that you decided to go through rather than around.
Helps that it was the first highly graphically demanding game, and especially immersive sim, that i jumped into after finally getting a proper 202X desktop PC to migrate to from my old 2014 laptop.
Some of the same floaty-glidy gameyness feel from like Skyrim started to come back as i pragmatically dumped my stat points into stamina and movespeed values for both sheer distance covering and mobility in combat particularly as a lone traveler with no one to be in formation alongside and cover my flanks.
Been trying to think about how i want to try setting my difficulty level selection mission to mission and have some self-measurement on how often i put points into movement, tankiness, and damage dealing to thread the needle of balance to preserve that feeling i love without it all ending up feeling super arbitrary.
Ceave has an awesome vid about Zelda having a BOTW problem, that compliments this so well.
God, I have so much to say on this subject, I can barely even start. We're stuck in this so bad that we keep remaking games to feel like current year AAA experiences out of a fear that current players won't touch anything else. I crave the opportunity to explore new systems with unique tactile properties but so many people reflexively dismiss anything that feels unfamiliar. I say banish terms like "clunky" or "outdated" from your vocabulary. Embrace things that feel a little bit strange. If something really is just bad, be more precise with your language than "clunky."
Anyways, play Penny's Big Breakaway.
In some cases a majority of players won’t touch these unique experiences. It’s important to build a business model that allows for them anyway.
Not related to the video, but I would love to hear you guys talk about playing-card games in depth!
This was the problem I had with the latest Starwars card game. It was mechanically sound but it felt like a bunch of "fixed" ideas with a Starwars skin. Not like the 90's one with it's complex cinematic play style and "the force" being an actual game system.
I really want someone to take different game environments without recognizable content (a single tree or shrub or mountain) and have them compared side by side. Then have players guess what games they belong to because I hypothesize players would be surprised by the (in)accuracy. Games visually blend for me for this generation of gaming
Monster Hunter always seems to be left out of these discussions, so I just want to shout it out as the points presented could bery well translate into that whole series.
With that said, shoutout to my man Monster Hunter, new instalment coming whatever of february
Good point!
Hey I was wondering if I could contact you guys and send you a new format of magic I invented to get your opinion on it?
In the intro they’re just describing MGS4 😂
Where can I snag one of those giant growth shirts?! omg
Forrest will likely be selling them next year.
Can you make a video about Diagetic systems?
We’ll add it to the list!
Monster Hunter is a series that, to me, stands out a lot in terms of how it controls. Especially the pre Monster Hunter World titles. The controls feel purposefuly clunky, even for their time, and the weapons feel super heavy. I feel like Dark Souls learned a lot from it in terms of character controls tbh
Very true watching the game awards was pretty depressing... my bias has always been that this naturally occurs when teams get too big. The great designers are mostly great because of the simple fact that their artistic vision survives the process of delegation (normally via extreme micro-managing). The same phenomenon occurs in every creative industry.
It is hard to execute a unique vision with a large team for sure. You’re also less likely to take risks.
I hate games that slow my character down. It feels like it just doesn't value my time. There are games i am in because of the story. There are games i am in because of the action. I am personally not in any game to experience walking along slowly to get to the next POI. I do understand that i need to walk around for immersion and pacing but please don't make it painfully slow. If there is someting awsome or interesting i will pause and stay looking at it. But i want that to be my own decision.
*cough* concord *cough*
Dark Souls wasn't hard to play at the time it came out since Demon's Souls had come out two years earlier...
A kid complains controls being clumsy? Make them play and beat QWOP before you let them back on the game they complained about. Problem solved