I left a negative comment on the last video, and I have to say this one is much better. This video is a nuanced look at the choice of going to college. I think the $150k of positive PV is an indication that in whole it’s better to graduate college than not attend. That being said, you make great points around private universities (generally not worth it) and failing to stay on track and graduate in 4 years. We can say college is worth it on a population level, but how each individual makes that choice will have a material impact on the outcome. Some are def better off finding a different path.
It’s the exact opposite, good for individuals on their resume and horrible for society. You just get credential inflation and more of wasted prime years.
This advice is 100% correct. Even though I was accepted to 2 more prestigious public universities, I went to my local university and lived with my parents and graduated in 3 years. I saved over $79,000. I likely could have gotten into a top 50 university, but i wasn't sure what I wanted to do. 2nd semester, I figured out I wanted to go into Management Information Systems, and I'm leaving college with 0 debt.
For me, going to college was a waste. I didn’t know what I was doing and constantly changed majors. I didn’t even finish. All this because I had parents who wanted the “prestige” of having a daughter in school… but had very little understanding of how this process works. They didn’t understand the system but at 18, I wasn’t wise enough to say No to their pushing. They did not help financially. Those student loans during the 2008 crash were no laughing matter. Luckily, I went on to become a project engineer with a well known social media company for a time and married a blue collar man who makes 6 figures.
It's also very hard to say that top universities are the cause of high salaries just because are correlated, some people are just smarter prettier richer when they start their career, it's unfair but it's true...they would be great anyway, I guess beyond engineering/medical major, university is just a luxury that people are willing to pay, and on general probably makes the gdp grow, just like the military service, because it makes kids busy and a bit more out of trouble
Whole heartedly agree with your assessment. Unfortunately, some people are not academically inclined and still feel pressured to go to college, since they don't see alternatives. We could do better to advertise those alternative careers.
Good luck getting most jobs with just high school, getting a bank loan, getting many types of investment capital and also, good luck getting a foreign work permit. Now look at poverty statistics. High school only is almost 100% of people living below the poverty line. Seriously. Stay in school
@@DioTheGreatOne if you also live in a country with rubbish wages for tradesmen, why are you recommending more people become underpaid and overworked tradesmen?
The only thing I disagree with is trades being for those less academically inclined who prefer physical labour. I think a job like elementary school teacher is far more physically and emotionally demanding but less intellectually challenging that certain trades. You have to be very better at math, chemistry and physics for electrical and HVAC trades than you do to be a university educated elementary school teacher.
Have you read Caplan’s the case against education? Also, I think there are jobs you can get that don’t require physical labor or formal education. I did 3d animation for VFX and commercials for the last 15 years. This industry is dying now but I made a good living and it worked on portfolio and recommendations. I was never asked about school.
@@AFNick Omg, please check it out. It’s THE book on the college question today even though he talks about college through the perspective of society and not the individual.
I'm only going to school now because my field requires you to get a degree at a certain level of work (network engineering). I can already DO the work, but in my opinion, I think my ivy league managers don't like the fact that they have to take technical advice from someone with a GED.
Good video, I’m wondering if you can explore another question, one from the perspective of say upper middle class parents: Is it better to spend the money to pay for your kids’ education (private secondary and tertiary education) vs saving that education money for a trust fund for the kids instead.
It is only worth it for people pursuing Medicine, Finance, Engineering, Hard Sciences, Computer Science and Law degrees. Any degree ending with studies should be reserved for trust fund kids who want to flex that they attended university.
I'll say Data Sciece as a PhD is more viable than CS. At the end of the day, most CS jobs will want you to know anything AI related because is the trend (and one I do not forsee dying out in 5 years).
It’s still good to get a more respectable bs degree like business or history. That will make you competitive for jobs that don’t require a degree but has preference.
I took a major loss I went to a private school I forced into going and I'm taking classes online raking up more debt in a different major probably in my 5th institution. You are right it's worse not finishing. So if I finish with this degree this time then it would have taken me 7-8 years for one degree. People who have gone have said it takes a long time then advertised.
@@liquiditywso9808 I get that but what's the ROI for the monetary / time / energy investment compared to other things? Higher education doesn't necessarily teach any valuable / applicable skills and after the 4-6 years you're at best a specialist, and depend on the jobs others' (or the gov) have created. Typically a servant of old money, big business, or have to do busywork for gov. You could work, spend 5k on other types of training, and get a great skillset in evergreen stuff like marketing and writing, and also learn sales, a profession, or a trade. You can easily make 2-3x what your higher educated friends make, control your own hours, and when you master the skills, you can scale your business with no upper limits. I think it's a better route if you're a smart person capable of independent thinking.
I read before to first choose the job you want to have before you go to college. Use college as a means to the end. I went into engineering just thinking with that degree I would have a good paying job. I graduated and got a decent job, but I don't like what I'm doing. I also didn't like studying engineering.
Nick, about your point on grad school, do you feel it's ever worth it? I now that you said attending undergrad at a T-50 is always worth it. I'm currently a 2nd year MBA, and most of my cohort say that B-School isn't worth it, unless if you attend a T-25 (I'm at a T-15). Would you agree with this, or would you say that this is elitist nonsense?
I would generally agree with that view. I for the most part oppose grad school unless it’s needed for a career change (like a top 20 MBA) or is paid for by employer.
I really don't see a need for college unless you are entering a field where it is legally mandated like medicine or law. Technology, which provides some of the most lucrative jobs, has been slowly shifting away from requiring degrees, since college is almost purely theoretical and never teaching necessary practical skills, and since technology changes much faster than colleges can keep up. This is why we've seen certifications and 'bootcamps' become more common as the traditional ways of education were insufficient. It seems like most companies care more about work experience than a college degree (although they still require the degree out of tradition). With the advent of the Internet and unparalleled access to information, people can learn about any subject and develop marketable skills easier, cheaper, and faster than going to college. College's only real advantage is allowing students to network and cultivate relationships with other people. In recent decades, the cost to attend college has skyrocketed and I really don't see the cost / benefit advantage anymore. Unless cost to attend significantly lowers, you will see a lot more people ditch college in favor of alternative paths.
Labor markets are extremely inefficient, and largely don't respect education. To get any job at even the most profitable large companies, you have to study unpaid at least 1,000x to 10,000x more hours than the kid making your burritos at Chipotle. Meanwhile, the hourly wages are never 1,000x better. For example. DC min wage, $17 hourly. But none of the largest profitable employers (Microsoft, Nvidia , Amazon, Meta , Google) pay $17,000 hourly. Yet all of these required a minimum of 1,000 more study hours... This is a steep disincentive to people from working class American families to invest time or money into education past age 16. Foreigners however will get 1,000x more money hourly from US employers vs the food service worker in their home country. For the immigrant to America, education can lead to a proportionate reward that Americans simply don't get.
Americans who do end up investing into this economic model despite the inefficiencies are really only proving their class and caste in the American social hierarchy. It says, as a signal to the elite hiring managers, my family is wealthy enough to afford to dedicate years and perhaps decades, into a system that has major economic inefficiencies. Or, in other words, it signals who actually doesn't need the money.
This raises a major point ☝️, that the people who don't need the money, tend to get the top jobs. The economic system into which we've been born, is certainly counterintuitive...
@@economicdevelopmentplannin8715 That’s true up to a point. I think it applies more to the upper middle class. The real elite wouldn’t waste their time in unpaid internships and grad school unless they have legitimate interest in the subject or hand political ambition.
@@AFNick i think the argument you're making is, the "30% ROI on $100m is better than 300% gains on $1m". I strongly agree. The problem is, this benefit of the low ROI on a large portfolio is in effect inaccessible to typical American family from a low income low wealth background. Elite education has a relatively low ROI, albeit still positive, compared to the option of coming from a nonimmigrant American family who has historically been shut out from accessing wealth working a normal job without a degree in a high minimum wage City like DC area.
It seems that you're making the mistake of assuming university-educated people make more money *because* they are university-educated. Perhaps smarter more capable people make more money because they are smarter/more capable *and* they historically go to university to demonstrate that. If for whatever reason that changes you could see tons of people earn more based on some other 'signal'.
Raw IQ is not enough to succeed in a complex society. You make a valid point, but a post secondary education teaches valuable career skills (it did for me) and help provides direction. However, you need to pick the right field of study and apply yourself outside of class. Coasting through school doesn’t guarantee anything.
![Twenty One Pilots - The Line (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Audio]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/XCz7WUotXs8/mqdefault.jpg)
I left a negative comment on the last video, and I have to say this one is much better. This video is a nuanced look at the choice of going to college. I think the $150k of positive PV is an indication that in whole it’s better to graduate college than not attend. That being said, you make great points around private universities (generally not worth it) and failing to stay on track and graduate in 4 years. We can say college is worth it on a population level, but how each individual makes that choice will have a material impact on the outcome. Some are def better off finding a different path.
It’s the exact opposite, good for individuals on their resume and horrible for society. You just get credential inflation and more of wasted prime years.
This advice is 100% correct. Even though I was accepted to 2 more prestigious public universities, I went to my local university and lived with my parents and graduated in 3 years. I saved over $79,000. I likely could have gotten into a top 50 university, but i wasn't sure what I wanted to do. 2nd semester, I figured out I wanted to go into Management Information Systems, and I'm leaving college with 0 debt.
For me, going to college was a waste. I didn’t know what I was doing and constantly changed majors. I didn’t even finish. All this because I had parents who wanted the “prestige” of having a daughter in school… but had very little understanding of how this process works. They didn’t understand the system but at 18, I wasn’t wise enough to say No to their pushing.
They did not help financially.
Those student loans during the 2008 crash were no laughing matter.
Luckily, I went on to become a project engineer with a well known social media company for a time and married a blue collar man who makes 6 figures.
It's also very hard to say that top universities are the cause of high salaries just because are correlated, some people are just smarter prettier richer when they start their career, it's unfair but it's true...they would be great anyway, I guess beyond engineering/medical major, university is just a luxury that people are willing to pay, and on general probably makes the gdp grow, just like the military service, because it makes kids busy and a bit more out of trouble
Whole heartedly agree with your assessment. Unfortunately, some people are not academically inclined and still feel pressured to go to college, since they don't see alternatives. We could do better to advertise those alternative careers.
Good luck getting most jobs with just high school, getting a bank loan, getting many types of investment capital and also, good luck getting a foreign work permit. Now look at poverty statistics. High school only is almost 100% of people living below the poverty line. Seriously. Stay in school
Or you could just go into trade school, they actually teach useful stuff instead of indoctrinating their students.
@@DioTheGreatOne electricians make minimum wage where I am from.
@@Anton43218 I am from a 3rd world country (Brazil) and electricians get paid minimum wage there as well. What Country/State are you from?
@@DioTheGreatOne Romania.
@@DioTheGreatOne if you also live in a country with rubbish wages for tradesmen, why are you recommending more people become underpaid and overworked tradesmen?
The only thing I disagree with is trades being for those less academically inclined who prefer physical labour. I think a job like elementary school teacher is far more physically and emotionally demanding but less intellectually challenging that certain trades. You have to be very better at math, chemistry and physics for electrical and HVAC trades than you do to be a university educated elementary school teacher.
Thanks, Nick! I appreciate the fresh perspective.
You’re welcome
Have you read Caplan’s the case against education?
Also, I think there are jobs you can get that don’t require physical labor or formal education. I did 3d animation for VFX and commercials for the last 15 years. This industry is dying now but I made a good living and it worked on portfolio and recommendations. I was never asked about school.
No I have not
@@AFNick Omg, please check it out. It’s THE book on the college question today even though he talks about college through the perspective of society and not the individual.
I'm only going to school now because my field requires you to get a degree at a certain level of work (network engineering). I can already DO the work, but in my opinion, I think my ivy league managers don't like the fact that they have to take technical advice from someone with a GED.
Good video, I’m wondering if you can explore another question, one from the perspective of say upper middle class parents:
Is it better to spend the money to pay for your kids’ education (private secondary and tertiary education) vs saving that education money for a trust fund for the kids instead.
or buying them a house when they are super young, renting it out until they choose to live there if not selling
It is only worth it for people pursuing Medicine, Finance, Engineering, Hard Sciences, Computer Science and Law degrees. Any degree ending with studies should be reserved for trust fund kids who want to flex that they attended university.
If you got rid of government guaranteed student loans the market would ration those degrees to the wealthy on its own
Not computer science. You can learn that anywhere nowadays.
I'll say Data Sciece as a PhD is more viable than CS. At the end of the day, most CS jobs will want you to know anything AI related because is the trend (and one I do not forsee dying out in 5 years).
It’s still good to get a more respectable bs degree like business or history. That will make you competitive for jobs that don’t require a degree but has preference.
There is another possiblity: come to study to Europe.
Aka have someone else pay for your education.
that comes with a lot of costs too
I graduated from a top 50 U.S. news university and got more like 50-60k majoring in Econ at the business school
I took a major loss I went to a private school I forced into going and I'm taking classes online raking up more debt in a different major probably in my 5th
institution. You are right it's worse not finishing. So if I finish with this degree this time then it would have taken me 7-8 years for one degree. People who have gone have said it takes a long time then advertised.
Not unless you have a specialist job that's almost unable to be self taught, in my not so humble opinion.
Definitely worth it in Canada. I paid 5k a semester
Why is it worth it in Canada?
@@edheldude $5k a semester in Canada vs $40k a semester in the US in state and $70k+ for out of state
@@liquiditywso9808 I get that but what's the ROI for the monetary / time / energy investment compared to other things?
Higher education doesn't necessarily teach any valuable / applicable skills and after the 4-6 years you're at best a specialist, and depend on the jobs others' (or the gov) have created. Typically a servant of old money, big business, or have to do busywork for gov.
You could work, spend 5k on other types of training, and get a great skillset in evergreen stuff like marketing and writing, and also learn sales, a profession, or a trade.
You can easily make 2-3x what your higher educated friends make, control your own hours, and when you master the skills, you can scale your business with no upper limits. I think it's a better route if you're a smart person capable of independent thinking.
Yeap. In Canada I paid 2500 a semester for 4 classes in 2022 and just finished.
so not completely free?
I'm curious how the Harvard is a great option thesis will play out with the latest scandals we've seen coming from the school.
This is a great answer to this issue.
I read before to first choose the job you want to have before you go to college. Use college as a means to the end. I went into engineering just thinking with that degree I would have a good paying job. I graduated and got a decent job, but I don't like what I'm doing. I also didn't like studying engineering.
Nick, about your point on grad school, do you feel it's ever worth it? I now that you said attending undergrad at a T-50 is always worth it.
I'm currently a 2nd year MBA, and most of my cohort say that B-School isn't worth it, unless if you attend a T-25 (I'm at a T-15). Would you agree with this, or would you say that this is elitist nonsense?
I would generally agree with that view. I for the most part oppose grad school unless it’s needed for a career change (like a top 20 MBA) or is paid for by employer.
I really don't see a need for college unless you are entering a field where it is legally mandated like medicine or law. Technology, which provides some of the most lucrative jobs, has been slowly shifting away from requiring degrees, since college is almost purely theoretical and never teaching necessary practical skills, and since technology changes much faster than colleges can keep up. This is why we've seen certifications and 'bootcamps' become more common as the traditional ways of education were insufficient. It seems like most companies care more about work experience than a college degree (although they still require the degree out of tradition).
With the advent of the Internet and unparalleled access to information, people can learn about any subject and develop marketable skills easier, cheaper, and faster than going to college. College's only real advantage is allowing students to network and cultivate relationships with other people. In recent decades, the cost to attend college has skyrocketed and I really don't see the cost / benefit advantage anymore. Unless cost to attend significantly lowers, you will see a lot more people ditch college in favor of alternative paths.
This!
Terrific video
Thanks
Labor markets are extremely inefficient, and largely don't respect education.
To get any job at even the most profitable large companies, you have to study unpaid at least 1,000x to 10,000x more hours than the kid making your burritos at Chipotle. Meanwhile, the hourly wages are never 1,000x better.
For example.
DC min wage, $17 hourly.
But none of the largest profitable employers (Microsoft, Nvidia , Amazon, Meta , Google) pay $17,000 hourly.
Yet all of these required a minimum of 1,000 more study hours...
This is a steep disincentive to people from working class American families to invest time or money into education past age 16.
Foreigners however will get 1,000x more money hourly from US employers vs the food service worker in their home country.
For the immigrant to America, education can lead to a proportionate reward that Americans simply don't get.
It doesn’t have to be 1000 times more productive to be worth it. Especially since you need to factor upside beyond the first job out of school.
Americans who do end up investing into this economic model despite the inefficiencies are really only proving their class and caste in the American social hierarchy.
It says, as a signal to the elite hiring managers, my family is wealthy enough to afford to dedicate years and perhaps decades, into a system that has major economic inefficiencies. Or, in other words, it signals who actually doesn't need the money.
This raises a major point ☝️, that the people who don't need the money, tend to get the top jobs.
The economic system into which we've been born, is certainly counterintuitive...
@@economicdevelopmentplannin8715 That’s true up to a point. I think it applies more to the upper middle class. The real elite wouldn’t waste their time in unpaid internships and grad school unless they have legitimate interest in the subject or hand political ambition.
@@AFNick i think the argument you're making is, the "30% ROI on $100m is better than 300% gains on $1m". I strongly agree. The problem is, this benefit of the low ROI on a large portfolio is in effect inaccessible to typical American family from a low income low wealth background. Elite education has a relatively low ROI, albeit still positive, compared to the option of coming from a nonimmigrant American family who has historically been shut out from accessing wealth working a normal job without a degree in a high minimum wage City like DC area.
It is only in the USA where a college degree is useless.
It’s not useless in the USA either
It seems that you're making the mistake of assuming university-educated people make more money *because* they are university-educated. Perhaps smarter more capable people make more money because they are smarter/more capable *and* they historically go to university to demonstrate that. If for whatever reason that changes you could see tons of people earn more based on some other 'signal'.
Raw IQ is not enough to succeed in a complex society. You make a valid point, but a post secondary education teaches valuable career skills (it did for me) and help provides direction. However, you need to pick the right field of study and apply yourself outside of class. Coasting through school doesn’t guarantee anything.