For next time, play through the end of disk 1! Also, I was speaking about forgeries around 1:28:00 not plagiarism, though the same techniques can be used to pick up on plagiarism as well.
@@ResonantArc I know, and I thank you guys very much for doing it! Currently, I am behind you guys (playing Xenogears) and need to catch up, but I am also looking for little things because of your Analysis. It's awesome! Hang in there! 😅 Even if you need a break it's all good. We'll be here 👍🏽👍🏽 but I also see once you get going the love for it shows.
I'm looking forward to you guys trying to do Solaris in a single episode. good luck! (am I crazy, or are you trying to pick up the pace during the climax of the game? it seems like it should be the opposite!)
I love hearing Casen's predictions. It really cool to get his insight w/ him never having played the games before. Sometimes he is way off and sometimes he is so on point it scary. But that's what makes it fun.
i absolutely adore the way the game sets up the battle with emeralda - the eerie silence, the crane shot over her shoulder with the haunting music kicking in at just the right moment, the cryptic dialogue and krelian's psychotic-looking henchman dropping down from the sky...it's so hard to articulate but in its best moments this game nails this elusive feeling so well, whatever it is. the mystery and tragedy of the bible, and ancient forgotten theology...i can't even begin to get it right in a youtube comment but it's such a special thing xenogears does, and no other game comes close. this one moment is an excellent example
Also, Emeralda's initial adulation of Fei and outspoken disdain for Elly seems to me like a clear reference to Freud's Electra complex, where a girl is in competition with her mother for possession of her father. In that respect, it makes sense to me that she WOULD associate her with her mother figure in the Zeboim era.
Man, Casen's guess about Grahf... So close, yet so far!! When he first said "Grahf is Fei's father" I gasped, and then the limiter stuff (I never thought about that! Makes sense), and then... "Grahf is Kahn's Id" and I was like "nope!"
"Grahf is Kahn's Id" its technically not wrong spoiler id was the personality that had access to the ancestor memories, while fei was the in the moment personality its basically the same with grahf and khan
Mike & Casen? Y’all doing a great job with the spoilers, casen take some wild guesses, and mike just laugh, and asks why he thinks that and moves on. So don’t worry about, the game is 25 years old, and if people are worried about spoilers, what are they doing watching a video that analyses the game ? 😂
I think that's the point Mike was trying to make. If you really are that worried about spoilers, just play the game first. This series will be waiting for you.
First time playing the game but I don’t care too much about spoilers so I’m still watching (I’ve also been a bit farther into the game than the episodes.) I’m mostly baffled I’ve never been spoiled somehow on this game though considering it is 25 years old. I think I’ve been spoiled on every other old jrpg that I didn’t play at the time.
i agree this scene never made sense but i think your overall interpretation of it is probably right. seems like one of those scenes where they tried to get by on 2 or 3 lines of dialogue when the turn of events demanded 6 or 7
Also, in classical terms, the King spends half or more of his time abroad, fighting the nation's wars. And people were cool with that; it was exciting for them.
I'm a year late to the party but so glad this series exists to accompany my playthrough. It's been almost 20 years since I've played Xenogears. Anyways, I'm kind of glad you guys skipped over the absolutely baffling dialogue from Tolone and Seraphita in this episode when they are attacking the Ft. Jasper. While the 1st encounter with them in Aquvy was somewhat comprehensible, I couldn't even fathom what they were trying to say in the scene here lol. It's a bummer the Elements are so goofy - you're basically fighting a dolphin on land and a dire wolf who breaks the 4th wall every time.
You guys have talked a lot about Jung and Freud, but I’ve really been hoping to hear you touch on how the story touches on some ideas of Jacques Lacan, like in Le stade du miroir, as well as the post-Lacanian Parisian feminists like in Diana Fuss’s The Reproduction of Motherhood. Just hoping to give a gentle nudge to cover some of the more obscure continental philosophy Tetsuya Takahashi snuck into the story! I haven’t seen enough analysis for Xenogears on Jacques Lacan, compared to Jung, and Lacan’s always been one of my favorite philosophers. This has been great either way! Love how deep you’ve both gone in your analysis and coverage.
I love Casen's guess, because you *can't* really know who Grahf is. It only makes sense once you've seen the whole thing. But it does remind me of my friend who played this for the first time, in which he guessed who Id was, after meeting him the second time. "Id is either Fei, Fei's father, Grahf, or Lacan, or God." Me and my other friend who had played it looked at each other and said "...yes to all...?"
The guesses and speculation is one of the best parts of this podcast, right after getting tons of new info and knowledge about the game from Mike. I do hope you keep on theorizing and guessing!
SPOILER about Wisemen Melchior is met on Disk 2 around the beginning, the reason why he didn't remember is because he's better known as Taura. Gaspar is also met in Shevat, he's a very old man. I forget the details about meeting him except that he upgrades the characters somehow.
To be fair about the suicide subject. There was a western mathematician who solved a theorem that took him a decade or so to accomplish.Though he forgot how to do a single step in his calculations when presenting his proof. Keep in mind these were for other master mathematician so he shouldnt be writing down every step explicitly. All his colleagues thought he would kill himself due to embarrassment and for wasting everyones time. He eventually found out he did it correctly, but it took him 2 years to rediscover how he did that portion.
I havent played Xenogears, but I found this channel as a big ff8 and Nier fan and its funny because as a FF6 fan too I started to search everything about ff6, and this is how I discovered Xenogears, because Roni and Rene suppposly are Edgar and Sabin, etct. So it was a nice surprise that just at the moment I bacame interested in this game, you started playing and analyzing it too! Well, for me Bart is like the spiritual son of Edgar so when Bart declared the republic was in deed a big surprise and a emotional moment for me because Edgar in ff6 doesn't have a development character arc, he started being someone who sacrifices himshelf for the others and he is still carrying the crown's burden in the end of the game so watching his spiritual son finally freeing himshelf of that (because we see that Bart doesn't want the burden too, he would prefer to be a pirat) was sweet. It doesn't last much because they choose him again as their president of the republic (?) but well xd at least this game don't have the tippically pro-monarchy stuff that most of fantasy stories have. Thanks for your deep analysis!!! I would love to have someone like you to discuss in this level of detail other stuff hehe
The Priesthood in Japan were "recently" (in history terms) known to be warriors as well, so it's possible it might make sense to the Japanese that way.
1:31:50 They may have covered this is later episodes, and I know I'm replying to a 2 year+ podcast episode, but parts of Maria and the Seibzehn itself are 100% a reference to one of the first ever giant robots, named Giant Robo. The design of the Seibzehn and parts of Maria's story are almost 1:1 with the 90's OVA version "The Day the Earth Stood Still". With Takahashi being a mecha fan, there's zero doubt he was a fan of Yasuhiro Imagawa.
Thanks for this! I always look forward to it every week. Man it would be awesome to see discussions on this extent about 13 Sentinels, there's so much to unpack on that game.
Subject: Spoilers and guesses. Mike nailed it @Casen! I personally love your guesses. When you nailed the Tower of Babel in the first episode and who Id was a few episodes ago blew me away and brought excitement to this old man.
I work in a videogame studio and back when we had 3 writers I'm 95% sure that they would actually each work on different things and then consult each other to be sure that their work is cohesive and work as a whole. I don't think if it was as far as making scenes connecting like I believe it was more about different levels of hierarchy such as one would work on making background for characters whereas another would write dialogs for such scene and so on. But I'm pretty sure considering how we work within the company that they've worked in parallel on different scenes and I'm not particularly surprised by this approach. It's pretty much how games are made for the most part. It's the same for environment and so on. You can't have the same persons working on everything. Usually the lead/director of the team is responsible for making sure that everything is cohesive and then people are working on different tasks (you can't have one artist making all the character models, another one making all the environments and so on. Maybe back in 1998 it was more often the case but I doubt it, nowadays it's clearly not working like that except for very small indie studios).
Happy Xeno day! Thanks for doing these guys :) On the topic of spoilers: Think of Final Fantasy 7 Remake. Throughout the whole game there were subtle differences from the original that seemed perfectly within the realm of artistic license and interpretation. Even the whispers, seemed quite possibly more like a message directly to the gamer and not the game, representing the artists limitation to keep the game as pure to the original as possible - a visual avatar of that frustration put there to make the gamer feel a bit of what the gamers have been making the artists feel. However, the game was largely well within the scope of feasibility of the original, to recognize the differences but not question the fundamental breaking of the original's lore and narrative. Then that ending happened. After that whole ending sequence of spectacle after spectacle, many of us just kind of sat there wandering "what the ever loving hell just happened?" With the ending in mind, we either went back and replayed the game again, went over the questions we held in our mind, or both, and it started to dawn on us, "...Holy Shit - these clues were right in front of me the entire time!" Albeit FF7R is, imo, more obtuse even than Xenogears, but that feeling of remembering stuff you've seen throughout the game, tucked away in the back of your mind, being thrust back into the forefront when something crazy happens, all because that stuff provides the very explanation (that you're searching for) for said crazy event. That feeling of epiphany is exciting and glorious. However, because all that "stuff" is in fact in the game, one can very realistically scrutinize it and figure out what is happening even before big reveals are made, thus seemingly rob one of that very feeling of realization and reaction (which is what an audience often wants to see/feel/relive.) With all that said, however, all of that is very subjective and each is well within their right to enjoy the game in whatever way they want. So, whatever you guys want to do, please do it and dont let anyone else pressure you into proceeding in a way that doesn't satisfy you. Just wanted to give some input on where the anti-spoiler push is coming from :) Sorry for all the anti-spoiler pressure you've been feeling, I hope you trust it comes from a deep sense of passion for Xenogears. And hopefully the complainers aren't being jerks about it. Keep it up guys!
Maria, I think, follows that Super Robot kind of trope (dunno if I'm using the right word). 17 doesn't really needs to be piloted but more like heeds the call of Maria. I can't remember what show it was, I know it was a Tokusatsu show, but it's kinda like how there's a giant monster but there's always a kid involved that it "follows." Like PG 13 Godzilla with the kids. Btw, as far as I know, 17 is Maria's mother. 18 is her father super brainwashed. These part really felt like Evangelion. I feel I could be wrong and you guys are right that it's an earlier "recorded/scanned?" psyche of Nikolai inside 17, or maybe both. idk.
Yeah is some kind of tribute to old super robot shows (like Giant robo or Tetsujin 28). the robot have some degree of autonomy and maria just need to give some vocal commands to it And i also think you are right about maria's mother
16:49 they talk about Bart’s reaction and how it’s not we’ll written, but you have to look at the whole scene. My interpretation is that Bart realized that he almost lost Margie and he really cares of her. I picture him with tears streaming down his face and he’s really saying, “WHY did you put yourself in danger like that!? I LOVE YOU!!” He’s not necessarily calling Maggie stupid but the situation was for her to die for him trying to claim the Omnigear. That’s how I see it anyway.
I hear the instrument in June Mermaid as a metallic mallet percussion instrument, such as a glockenspiel, rather than a music box. But, it is a bit hard to tell with these old 90's samples, and I can't say so definitively. If it IS a music box, that's an interesting connection, considering... (SPOILERS) ... ... ... ... The music box that Citan shows Fei at the beginning of the game was built by Kim, and if you return to Citan's house with Emeralda later in the game you can read a message from Kim on the side of it.
@@Arthirias yeah it's definitely an idiophone backed by a harp. music boxes/orgels do come up a lot in east asian pop culture from what i've noticed, though, so it's possible that they were trying to evoke one without using the actual sound itself
That one is a bit of an urban legend, unfortunately. You can see that message at any point with any party members, you just need to inspect the side of the music box (maybe twice).
I dont believe there is a single game that matches Xenogears in terms of scope. Takahashi was given enough time, I believe the game he envisioned would have easily been twice the length. I consider the game a flawed masterpiece and unlike any other JRPG in existence. But to imagine what it could have been.
spoiler but i never realized (or remembered?) that grahf granting "The Power" was him removing someone's limiter...if that's really what it is that's pretty clever
Thanks for this episode gentlemen! The truth bombs are starting to become revealed I liked how you went deep into the writing process of the script. I noticed you mentioned Maria and her gear and that she doesn’t pilot inside of it. This seems like a reference to the mecha anime, Giant Robo. Given the size of the robo and how Daisuke rides on Giant Robot’s shoulder the reference seems likely.
Anyone else reached Ep15 without skipping a minute - despite having never played the game? FFVII is in my mind the greatest game of all time. This being kind of its weird sibling I really wish I had time to play it, but likely won't, so I've just been running these podcasts in the background while working. I'm not sure if I'm following or not but I'm enjoying listening!
If I remember the implications correctly... Maria's father was forcibly installed into Achtzen, and before that he left the recording we see in that fight to trigger when Seibzhen confronted him. Dominia implies that it was Maria's *mother* that was incorporated into Seibzhen, which was the impetus for the Balthasar family to abandon Solaris.
I tend to assume Maria and how she operates her gear is a homage to really old school mecha anime like Gigantor. Early mecha tended to have kids sort of remote controlling their mechs from a distance instead of operating them from some sort of cockpit. There's a ton of references to various anime (specifically mecha anime) series in xenogears, some more blatant than others.
so I was supposed to wait for the ne episode but i had to know what is going to happen and i finished the entire game don't worry i won't spoil anything
In regards to Bart asking Shakhan to kill himself; kind of a stretch but maybe since the Ethos has basically collapsed upon itself by now Bart’s saying Shakhan should go ahead and join the rest of them? The “June Mermaid” track has appeared once before the fight with Emeralda; it actually plays when she first appears in the tank in the Zeboim ruins. On that note, definitely remember to do the “Lighthouse” subquest near the end of the game, since it’s so vital in expanding on the backstory of a number of the characters (up to Big Joe even...).
great episode as usual! a few remarks, on the topic of barts speech, I think the term you were looking for mike is constitutional monarchy. this is essentially what britain had in the 1800s and 1900s, where a monarch does have great authority but is limited by a representation of the people and a constitution that he cant violate. i agree its not explained or conveyed well lmao, that's just my thought. on the gazel scene with krellian, uh, HUGE XENOGEARS SPOILERS I think the terms might be a bit mixed up. elly is the antitype, not the mother. i could be wrong about this but I believe that the "mother" they are referring too is the human that emerged from the wreckage of the eldritch, or what we later learn to be miang. when they say "her persona, only appears after she reaches a certain age... there is also a high probability that she transmigrated into the antitype." this is setting up a much later scene where elly is taken over by the mother and becomes another miang. I could be wrong about this interpretation tbh, but its my belief that the "mother" they are referring too is miang.
Mike, there's nothing wrong with letting a first time player speculate. The problem with your defense of spoilers is, whenever Cason guesses correctly, you always confirm his correct guesses and praise his powers of observation, which confirms it for the audience as well and you even go further in guiding him when he brings up uncertainties, such as when Cason said "but Id doesn't look like Fei". You would then convince him that he does look like Fei. When Cason mentioned his speculation about the Eldrige being symbolic of a tower of Babel, before even going there you outright confirmed that Babel Tower is the Eldrige. And when he guesses incorrectly, you wouldn't say anything, or you would dance around it, making it obvious to your audience that Cason is wrong or not completely on the right track. You're unconsciously spoilerific even if you don't realize it. You are giving Cason (and your audience) a second playthrough experience as a first time player. As someone who has played it before myself, there are definitely a lot of things you gave away far too early that I wouldn't have done. You are supposed to be confused the first time playing. This is by design. And you're circumventing it by clarifying everything and putting "bookmarks" in points that were intended to be forgotten, telling the audience to remember this for later, which will get them thinking about things they wouldn't have thought about. The Retro Amnesia guys highlighted some observations but left it there and for the most part didn't spoil future events. Both of them had already played the game previously. There's nothing wrong with having a new player speculate. But when you confirm the speculation as correct or guide it towards the correct answer, that's when you're giving outright spoilers.
*SPOILERS* (For Mike basically) We do meet "Melchior" the third wiseman later. Taura Melchior is the one that saves Elly and Fei after Solaris is destroyed (with the naked Fei in the tube). As far as I know, those three are the "wisemen" of Shevat. I don't think Wiseman is specifically considered part of that group or at least isn't really said to be connected to them, but the naming is confusing.
1:30:00 onward about 17 and 18: from how I intrepreted this was that Nikolai had attempted to transfer part of his mind into 17 initially. Thus, he connected his transferred consciousness as a like...copy of himself, digitally, into the mech to become obedient to his daughter, or in this case, his operator Maria. However, Nikolai, the original, was still alive and kicking. And so that is how 18 is operating based on the original being used to power the processing for 18. Thus, two Nikolai's. One digital and one organic. This was how my 16 year old self rationalized how the two mechs operated.
On transmigration and the antitype, it helps to consider what Krelian is saying with respect to the biblical meaning of these words: Transmigration: the passage of a soul after death into another body Antitype: one that is foreshadowed by or identified with an earlier symbol or type, such as a figure in the New Testament who has a counterpart in the Old Testament So when they say that the Mother persona, a.k.a. a very specific social identity, has transmigrated into the Antitype, we're dealing with a soul who manifests itself only after reaching adulthood. And this soul has moved onto another body, specifically that of one who was foreshadowed with an earlier type. Elly is the Antitype because she was foreshadowed by her earlier counterparts in both the Zeboim era and 500 years ago (as Sophia) and was destined to bear the soul of the Mother persona. So we're not only dealing with a recurrence of certain symbolic figures across history, but also with the transmigration of a soul corresponding to a very specific identity across the recurrences of said figures.
Maria rides on Seibezehn as a nod to Giant Robo (and likely some other mecha anime I'm forgetting). I think other glaring examples would be stuff like the elements bearing a vague resemblance to the Sailor Scouts (a weird referential nod to the men all being former elementals could be a weird fourth wall break pointing to saint seiya, food for thought). I also always read chu-chu as a generic nod to anime, I understand where you're coming from with a dislike of the character, but I feel it's kind of an easy target. Thanks again guys, I enjoy these every week, and don't let the people complaining about spoilers get to you Mike, my favorite part of watching this series is easily Casen's personal insights and I appreciate how you've circumnavigated spoilers the whole way through.
Almost done guys! Thanks so much for the great work! After next episode (Disc 2 Onwards) how many episodes do you guys estimate are left? I'd guess anywhere from 20 - 25 episodes depending how things go in future episodes, I guess we just wait and see.
With regards to how Maria pilots her gear: I’ve always been under the impression that she pilots it via remote control from outside. The design of the Seibzehn is most certainly meant to reference a few of the earliest giant robots in manga and anime, Mitsuteru Yokoyama’s Tetsujin 28 (better known in the west as Gigantor) and Giant Robo. Both of those were piloted via remote control from outside as well.
Emeralda is overall my favorite character to play on foot and in gear. Followed by Fei abd Citan. Really after Citan gets his sword him, and Emeralda my favorite on foot party members
Please ask Casen whether he translates the song title as "June Mermaid", "September Mermaid", or "October Mermaid". I've seen it translated different ways on different releases of the OST and arranged albums.
I can answer that. The Japanese name is 神無月の人魚 (kannazuki no ningyo). Ningyo is straightforward--it means "fish person." "Mermaid" is a pretty good localization for it, especially since it's the theme song of Emeralda, a female character. "no" is a possessive, basically a backwards "of," so it's the Ningyo of Kannazuki. Kannazuki is less straightforward, but I'll go for it. Kannazuki is a month from Japan's old calendar that they don't use anymore. Its name roughly means "The Month of Gods." Kannazuki was the tenth month of the year, but that calendar didn't start on the same day as the current calendar, so while its first day is in October, it has more overlap with November. However, modern convention generally equates Kannazuki with October, not November. "June Mermaid" is an outright error--a complete mistake. However, it's used in officially localized material so it kinda stuck. An argument could be made for "November Mermaid," but the best translation is probably "October Mermaid." I have never seen "September Mermaid" but that also seems like an outright wrong name.
@@jjfoshay I see. I'm playing along with the podcast, but I missed the M Disk, so the only one I can check is the one in Shevat. I don't remember seeing the song in question on that one.
I’m really not understanding why people keep thinking Mike is providing spoilers in any way. They are analyzing a very in depth game in which Casen has never played. This is not a ‘play through’ so to speak. Idk, if I was playing this game for the first time and was that worried about spoilers I would not watch a series like this anyways. And some other people that are obviously very familiar with this game need to realize that anyone playing this game for the first time are most likely not going to catch on to some references being made by Mike. Just nothing you would catch unless you are very familiar with the game like some of us are. That said, just enjoy it they are doing a great job
that's fine, but they should have said it outright in episode 1, that if you are a new player, you should not listen to this series as a book club format, because Cason is an observant person and will make crazy guesses that end up being right, and I'm going to confirm every time he guesses something correctly. And if he doesn't guess correctly, I won't confirm it, so you can infer that he is wrong and deduce what is the correct answer. The Retro Am guys have a podcast that's book club format which is actually new player friendly, because they don't discuss spoilers or speculate and confirm.
@@lostn65 He definitely nailed some of his guesses, or at least came so close (yet so far away) at times. In retrospect I’m sure they wish they would have done as you said at least in some form as to not give too much information away and specifically note it wasn’t a book club at least in traditional sense. One thing I did notice they did in some of the FF X episodes is that they had a specific time stamped segment at the end of a few episodes where they specifically talked about spoilers, or discussed their deeper meaning theories that could give away too much to someone unfamiliar with the game. I made sure to comment myself about that and hope they continue to implement it so people can stop the episode if they want. It may have been hard to do this with xenogears anyways though cause one of them had not played it. Ah well, overall I thought they did pretty well. I of course loved it cause it just is one game I always occasionally think about even 20+ years later since the first time I played. So was cool to hear the things Cason was getting close on…or those things he was way off on like Ramses being Fei’s dad for instance 😁
Casen's predictions should be 100% fine. I think some people don't like when you tell him to "keep that in mind for later" because more often than not it tends to mean "yeah thats right, but theres more, remember it for later". So just look at Casen when he guesses and no matter how accurate it is, say "Good guess, I suppose we'll see". Everyones happy lol. If people really are sensitive to guesses, then that's probably their problem.
letting him guess is fine. But answering "You're absolutely correct, great observation, I'm so proud of you!" is spoilers. Especially if it was a really out there guess that the average player would not have thought of. That's Mike's style.
28:43 when talking of the lines between Shakkan and Bart. Remember that the Ethos or church was doing some pretty shady stuff and we say Billy who also got caught up in it. I think Bart developed a dislike for the church and anything to do with it. So he’s telling Shakkan to just die, because that all the worth you (and people like you) are to me.
The "Thames" is not named after the river in England but after the 10th month of the Hebrew calendar "Tammuz" 🙂 (see link below) It's listed and transcribed in the Xenogears Perfect Works as "Tamz" en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tammuz_(Hebrew_month) There are other places in the game named after months of the Hebrew calendar. Here are the 12 months : Tishri, Cheshvan, Kislev, Tevet, Shevat, Adar, Nisan, Iyar, Sivan, Tammuz, Av, and Elul You probably recognise Kislev, Shevat (Shivat), Nisan, Tammuz (The Thames), Av (Aveh) and last but not least Elul which is how "Elru" should have been transcribed. My guess is that R.H. did not get the references.
despite the regionally specific pronunciation, i think "the thames" is a good localization for that. it has sailorly associations, and is close in pronunciation to tammuz. ditto the others, aveh and elru work great in context. the references don't need to be direct in order to work (in fact, i'd say the inverse is true; it's best not to be on the nose all the time)
@@tiredastired I see your point, but that's exactly the problem ^^ A good translation is supposed to make its best to restitute the meaning and references intended by the authors. The fact that "The Thames" has a sailory themed has surely been missleading to R.H and oriented his choice for the name, but that completely erase the harmony the author aimed at. When an author of culture A chooses to incorporate names themed after culture B into their works, the translator of culture C is supposed to let the names as they are and not localise or alter them. Of course, that's one way of seeing how translation works and not the only possibility. You can choose to modify or to "translate" everything in the language of culture C, but having discussed that matter so many times with professional Japanese manga translator , it seems to be the best solution to treat the author's work respectfully.
@@tiredastired the best example I could give you is Ramsus Kahran. His first name should have been transcribed as "Carlin" This choice completely erase the original connection with Carl Jung whose work, as you know, runs deep into the game's script influences.
@@oboronyon and that's exactly my point - Ramsus Carlin would be a distractingly terrible name for that character. not every reference needs to be so explicit - it's certainly not in japanese, either. even to westerners, Ramsus Carlin wouldn't have been a name anybody would've associated with Carl Jung...so why bother?
@@tiredastired @sleepdedication I think you make a confusion between what suits your taste and your ideas and what the subject of a translation is. The player, the translator, anybody really cannot decide whether it's a better choice or not. If the author choses "Carlin" or "Tammuz" then that's the way to go. Sure, you may prefer the old US adaptation and that's totally fine by me if you do. So, to the question "why bother ?" I'm just answering that it's not the way it should have been translated in the first place because that's the translator's vision, not the author's. Side note : They rarely call him カーラン "Carlin" (Kahran) in the game. They refer to him as カール which is exactly the katakana used to transcribe "Carl" in the Japanese dictionary ^^
Bart being king is more of a symbol. I think Emperor Cain is also that but has a little more influence on things. What is the word? poster boy? Figurehead? 1:02:09 Coriolis effect, windspeed, wind direction man lmao but yeah that's funny the first time i saw that scene 1:17:37 Wait is a baton a wand? Elly's gear is a magical girl whatever. Idk.. 1:32:44 Nikolai did say that he transferred data to Seibzehn maybe that was Nikolai's consciousness, like the last drop of humanity, soul in him, was now transferred. But nothing concrete. People even speculate that Seibzehns Nerve/conciseness circuit or whatever is Maria's mother but there are some timeline issues with it since Nikolai already sent Maria and her mother out of Solaris(Using Seibzehn?) by that point. Again nothing concrete. But the only thing we are sure of is Seibzehn is a product of a lot of "not so alive wels".
51:10 The king of a desert nation with technology to explore under the desert and that has two sons, one has to take the throne and the other is missing, where did I see that again? Oh yeah, Edgar and Sabin Roni Figaro from FF VI.
I don't exactly know how to put this.. but i kinda feel left out with this Xenogears podcast. I'm sure the game is an absolute must but I missed it as a kid.. and it has gotten pretty hard to follow the podcast after an episode or two. It's a shame that FF8 and Nier had only 5 episodes, when this one is already 14 episodes into it. I love your work and I've been following you guys for years, so I'm glad for all the people that can follow along on this journey.
FF8 and Nier were done at a monthly pace, so 5 episodes took 5 months. Xenogears is done at a weekly pace; 15 episodes is just shy of 4 months. It's not taking any longer. We're on the tail end of the game now but I'd really have recommended playing along with it to anyone who hasn't played it before. The pace is pretty slow and it's really not that big of a time investment.
You did a great job reminding me of this scene from Holy Grail. Woman: Well I didn't vote for you! Arthur: You don't vote for kings! Woman: Well 'ow'd you become king then? Arthur: (holy choir music fades up) The Lady of the Lake-- her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why I am your king! Man: (laughingly) Listen: Strange women, lying in ponds, distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some... farcical aquatic ceremony! Arthur: (yelling) BE QUIET! Man: You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!! Arthur: (coming forward and grabbing the man) Shut *UP*! Man: I mean, if I went 'round, saying I was an emperor, just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away! Arthur: (throwing the man around) Shut up, will you, SHUT UP! Man: Aha! Now we see the violence inherent in the system! Arthur: SHUT UP! Man: (yelling to all the other workers) Come and see the violence inherent in the system! HELP, HELP, I'M BEING REPRESSED! Arthur: (letting go and walking away) Bloody PEASANT! Man: Oh, what a giveaway! Did'j'hear that, did'j'hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about! Did you see 'im repressing me? You saw it, didn't you?!
Casen's interpretation of Jungian Persona in reference to Elly/Sophia is ON POINT. I think the confusion is just a result of bad localization/understanding on Honeywood's part.
@@Arthirias I don't know if I fully agree with using the term "personality" -- I still think Takahashi *does* specifically mean "Persona" -- but I think I see what you're getting at. It's a little hard to be descriptive without using information revealed later in the game, but Casen's interpretation of Elly as "outward"/"conscious" persona and Mother/Sophia as "inward"/"subconscious" true-self lines up with my understanding.
2 days ago it was 23-years-ago XG release date. It would be interesting to hear Casens opinion regarding the feel of the gameplay and graphics when you are in the middle of the game and not finished it yet. Does the visual appearance bother you? Would you like to try it on some emulator with 4k upscale, which is already possible to do?
casen is incorrect, and i think its already mentioned but they wanted to "extract information" from emeralda that was already done, using her to get a reaction is a secondary purpose.
It's crazy how in xenogears the villains are set up as slightly weaker than the heroes, or the heroes are the all powerful monsters Another story would have the heroes constantly be the underdogs
what if the player was born after the game came out? Or just became of gaming age recently? Is it their fault for being born too late, that all old things should be spoiled for them and they should blame their parents for having them too late? Should everyone know every spoiler for old things made before they were born?
This comment is pretty late to the conversation: but how scenes connect won't be as mysterious and haphazard as Mike suggests. Even games will have storyboards that have rough details about events and composition. The storyboard should flow pretty naturally on its own, while a writer will flesh it out with details in their particular style. So; the staff will surely already have the "big picture" and account for transitions between other parts of the game. Having said that, when it comes to cutting content for a production crunch, that smoothness can be lost.
So the reason that Bart and Margie are in an arranged marriage is deliberate inbreeding in the Fatima line in order to preserve the integrity of the Fatima Jasper. It is either implied or outright stated that this has been going on for a long time with the King marrying their cousin the Holy Mother. So not really a matter of luck that the Jasper is still valid so much as it is a deliberate eugenics programme. Royal inbreeding in order to keep the bloodline 'pure' used to be common in reality and is often common in fiction (Hello Targaryans, at least it’s not actual siblings…) When Bart blows up at Margie I believe the trope name you are after is called 'Anger born of worry'. It’s not that people don’t want Casen theorising, it is that they don’t want him guided too closely toward the correct answer, nor do they want it confirming so absolutely before it is due. The way you are doing it now is fine, where you allow him to make his theories but don’t reveal whether he is right or not (unless he has completely misremembered or forgotten something that has already happened in which case a correction is fine) Billy is the expert on guns but he’s never fired a laser cannon before and he only has two chances. With his first shot he adjusts for wind resistance, giving it his very best guess as to how far off the target he needed to adjust to. With his second shot however he has discovered that he does not need to account for outside factors so aims directly at the target. Movies and games may make it look like snipers just need to aim directly at a target through the scope/laser but in reality they need to aim a certain distance away from the target to account for gravity, crosswinds, air resistance, etc altering how the bullet will travel.
I got really confused by the bit where no one seemed to know that Bart was the heir apparent. I honestly thought it was common knowledge and that he hadn't succeeded the throne because it was being controlled, not because he hadn't announced himself.
After the Fatima Jasper reveal I assumed the reason every Fatima has the jasper is because of the arranged marriages in the family. I assume if it wasn't for keeping the jasper then Bart would have been married off to a different noble family instead of to his first cousin.
@mikebrown7876 Sorry if this has been asked already but what material are you referring to for the notes about the Enneagram personality types? I've looked around for different info on that and it's hard to find anything that describes it really well or in terms like you do.
For next time, play through the end of disk 1!
Also, I was speaking about forgeries around 1:28:00 not plagiarism, though the same techniques can be used to pick up on plagiarism as well.
You guys getting burned out on analyzing the game? The heavy sigh at the beginning, lol
@@nathansmith3168 It's exhausting, but I adore this game and love talking about it!
@@ResonantArc There were so many times where I was thinking, okay this has to be the end of disc 1 … Nope, wrong again! Lol
@@ResonantArc I know, and I thank you guys very much for doing it! Currently, I am behind you guys (playing Xenogears) and need to catch up, but I am also looking for little things because of your Analysis. It's awesome!
Hang in there! 😅 Even if you need a break it's all good. We'll be here 👍🏽👍🏽 but I also see once you get going the love for it shows.
I'm looking forward to you guys trying to do Solaris in a single episode. good luck! (am I crazy, or are you trying to pick up the pace during the climax of the game? it seems like it should be the opposite!)
I love hearing Casen's predictions. It really cool to get his insight w/ him never having played the games before. Sometimes he is way off and sometimes he is so on point it scary. But that's what makes it fun.
i absolutely adore the way the game sets up the battle with emeralda - the eerie silence, the crane shot over her shoulder with the haunting music kicking in at just the right moment, the cryptic dialogue and krelian's psychotic-looking henchman dropping down from the sky...it's so hard to articulate but in its best moments this game nails this elusive feeling so well, whatever it is. the mystery and tragedy of the bible, and ancient forgotten theology...i can't even begin to get it right in a youtube comment but it's such a special thing xenogears does, and no other game comes close. this one moment is an excellent example
(happens at the beginning of this video, if anyone's curious) ruclips.net/video/Zyl-flh_fPc/видео.html
1:23:15
not a spoiler but make sure to return to Citan's house in disc 2 with Emeralda in your party
Also, Emeralda's initial adulation of Fei and outspoken disdain for Elly seems to me like a clear reference to Freud's Electra complex, where a girl is in competition with her mother for possession of her father. In that respect, it makes sense to me that she WOULD associate her with her mother figure in the Zeboim era.
Man, Casen's guess about Grahf... So close, yet so far!! When he first said "Grahf is Fei's father" I gasped, and then the limiter stuff (I never thought about that! Makes sense), and then... "Grahf is Kahn's Id" and I was like "nope!"
His reasoning that Grahf is a Wiseman is actually pretty good, and explains wtf he's actually doing when offering people "the power."
"Grahf is Kahn's Id" its technically not wrong
spoiler
id was the personality that had access to the ancestor memories, while fei was the in the moment personality
its basically the same with grahf and khan
@@radicalantitheist Didn´t Grahf "absorbed" Fei´s father?
Mike & Casen?
Y’all doing a great job with the spoilers, casen take some wild guesses, and mike just laugh, and asks why he thinks that and moves on.
So don’t worry about, the game is 25 years old, and if people are worried about spoilers, what are they doing watching a video that analyses the game ? 😂
I think that's the point Mike was trying to make. If you really are that worried about spoilers, just play the game first. This series will be waiting for you.
First time playing the game but I don’t care too much about spoilers so I’m still watching (I’ve also been a bit farther into the game than the episodes.) I’m mostly baffled I’ve never been spoiled somehow on this game though considering it is 25 years old. I think I’ve been spoiled on every other old jrpg that I didn’t play at the time.
36:39 about this spoiler talk I personally think Mike is doing a good job - btw love the podcast, Xenogears is awesome and deserves all the attention
Oh man, we are a week away from entering the fabled "disc 2"
52:23 "it was clear to the people, though. they were stoked" 😆
i agree this scene never made sense but i think your overall interpretation of it is probably right. seems like one of those scenes where they tried to get by on 2 or 3 lines of dialogue when the turn of events demanded 6 or 7
I love how deep yall are digging into this game. Analyzing to the core.
Also, in classical terms, the King spends half or more of his time abroad, fighting the nation's wars. And people were cool with that; it was exciting for them.
It often takes longer unpack the game than it does to play it. That's why I adore it so much. and it will always be my favorite.
Have you ever seen how heavy Emerelda is? That nanomachine colony should have echoing footsteps.
Mike talks about Ramsus, starts hitting his fists together....hmmm ... Foreshadowing?
I'm a year late to the party but so glad this series exists to accompany my playthrough. It's been almost 20 years since I've played Xenogears. Anyways, I'm kind of glad you guys skipped over the absolutely baffling dialogue from Tolone and Seraphita in this episode when they are attacking the Ft. Jasper. While the 1st encounter with them in Aquvy was somewhat comprehensible, I couldn't even fathom what they were trying to say in the scene here lol. It's a bummer the Elements are so goofy - you're basically fighting a dolphin on land and a dire wolf who breaks the 4th wall every time.
Happy 23 year birthday to this game.
You guys have talked a lot about Jung and Freud, but I’ve really been hoping to hear you touch on how the story touches on some ideas of Jacques Lacan, like in Le stade du miroir, as well as the post-Lacanian Parisian feminists like in Diana Fuss’s The Reproduction of Motherhood. Just hoping to give a gentle nudge to cover some of the more obscure continental philosophy Tetsuya Takahashi snuck into the story! I haven’t seen enough analysis for Xenogears on Jacques Lacan, compared to Jung, and Lacan’s always been one of my favorite philosophers. This has been great either way! Love how deep you’ve both gone in your analysis and coverage.
That will come up later, I'm sure. I'm personally waiting for the Childhood's End discussion.
I love Casen's guess, because you *can't* really know who Grahf is. It only makes sense once you've seen the whole thing. But it does remind me of my friend who played this for the first time, in which he guessed who Id was, after meeting him the second time.
"Id is either Fei, Fei's father, Grahf, or Lacan, or God." Me and my other friend who had played it looked at each other and said "...yes to all...?"
You can guess who grafh is, as early as the purge in Kislev.
The guesses and speculation is one of the best parts of this podcast, right after getting tons of new info and knowledge about the game from Mike. I do hope you keep on theorizing and guessing!
Cassen is in for a big mind F when it comes to Grahf and Im looking forward to his reaction.
SPOILER about Wisemen
Melchior is met on Disk 2 around the beginning, the reason why he didn't remember is because he's better known as Taura.
Gaspar is also met in Shevat, he's a very old man. I forget the details about meeting him except that he upgrades the characters somehow.
To be fair about the suicide subject. There was a western mathematician who solved a theorem that took him a decade or so to accomplish.Though he forgot how to do a single step in his calculations when presenting his proof. Keep in mind these were for other master mathematician so he shouldnt be writing down every step explicitly. All his colleagues thought he would kill himself due to embarrassment and for wasting everyones time. He eventually found out he did it correctly, but it took him 2 years to rediscover how he did that portion.
I can't wait for next week. Solaris is probably my favorite section of the game.
"I didn't vote for you!" was the best part of this.
I havent played Xenogears, but I found this channel as a big ff8 and Nier fan and its funny because as a FF6 fan too I started to search everything about ff6, and this is how I discovered Xenogears, because Roni and Rene suppposly are Edgar and Sabin, etct. So it was a nice surprise that just at the moment I bacame interested in this game, you started playing and analyzing it too!
Well, for me Bart is like the spiritual son of Edgar so when Bart declared the republic was in deed a big surprise and a emotional moment for me because Edgar in ff6 doesn't have a development character arc, he started being someone who sacrifices himshelf for the others and he is still carrying the crown's burden in the end of the game so watching his spiritual son finally freeing himshelf of that (because we see that Bart doesn't want the burden too, he would prefer to be a pirat) was sweet. It doesn't last much because they choose him again as their president of the republic (?) but well xd at least this game don't have the tippically pro-monarchy stuff that most of fantasy stories have.
Thanks for your deep analysis!!! I would love to have someone like you to discuss in this level of detail other stuff hehe
i'm a big fan of bart's "clergymen tend to die, don't they" line being bizarre in both english and japanese
The Priesthood in Japan were "recently" (in history terms) known to be warriors as well, so it's possible it might make sense to the Japanese that way.
1:31:50 They may have covered this is later episodes, and I know I'm replying to a 2 year+ podcast episode, but parts of Maria and the Seibzehn itself are 100% a reference to one of the first ever giant robots, named Giant Robo. The design of the Seibzehn and parts of Maria's story are almost 1:1 with the 90's OVA version "The Day the Earth Stood Still". With Takahashi being a mecha fan, there's zero doubt he was a fan of Yasuhiro Imagawa.
Thanks for this! I always look forward to it every week.
Man it would be awesome to see discussions on this extent about 13 Sentinels, there's so much to unpack on that game.
Next week is gonna be GOOD!
Subject: Spoilers and guesses.
Mike nailed it @Casen! I personally love your guesses. When you nailed the Tower of Babel in the first episode and who Id was a few episodes ago blew me away and brought excitement to this old man.
I work in a videogame studio and back when we had 3 writers I'm 95% sure that they would actually each work on different things and then consult each other to be sure that their work is cohesive and work as a whole. I don't think if it was as far as making scenes connecting like I believe it was more about different levels of hierarchy such as one would work on making background for characters whereas another would write dialogs for such scene and so on. But I'm pretty sure considering how we work within the company that they've worked in parallel on different scenes and I'm not particularly surprised by this approach. It's pretty much how games are made for the most part. It's the same for environment and so on. You can't have the same persons working on everything.
Usually the lead/director of the team is responsible for making sure that everything is cohesive and then people are working on different tasks (you can't have one artist making all the character models, another one making all the environments and so on. Maybe back in 1998 it was more often the case but I doubt it, nowadays it's clearly not working like that except for very small indie studios).
i feel bad for fei for some extinct he have to deal with child support out of nowhere
Oh no, I'm all caught up! Now the waiting begins. Totally worth it though, thank you guys for this deep story and lore dive into this amazing game!
: Does a long multi part in-depth analysis of Xenogears:
Viewers: WHY ARE YOU SPOILING THE PLOT?!?!?!
Internet: :: Facepalm::
Happy Xeno day! Thanks for doing these guys :)
On the topic of spoilers: Think of Final Fantasy 7 Remake. Throughout the whole game there were subtle differences from the original that seemed perfectly within the realm of artistic license and interpretation. Even the whispers, seemed quite possibly more like a message directly to the gamer and not the game, representing the artists limitation to keep the game as pure to the original as possible - a visual avatar of that frustration put there to make the gamer feel a bit of what the gamers have been making the artists feel. However, the game was largely well within the scope of feasibility of the original, to recognize the differences but not question the fundamental breaking of the original's lore and narrative. Then that ending happened. After that whole ending sequence of spectacle after spectacle, many of us just kind of sat there wandering "what the ever loving hell just happened?" With the ending in mind, we either went back and replayed the game again, went over the questions we held in our mind, or both, and it started to dawn on us, "...Holy Shit - these clues were right in front of me the entire time!"
Albeit FF7R is, imo, more obtuse even than Xenogears, but that feeling of remembering stuff you've seen throughout the game, tucked away in the back of your mind, being thrust back into the forefront when something crazy happens, all because that stuff provides the very explanation (that you're searching for) for said crazy event. That feeling of epiphany is exciting and glorious. However, because all that "stuff" is in fact in the game, one can very realistically scrutinize it and figure out what is happening even before big reveals are made, thus seemingly rob one of that very feeling of realization and reaction (which is what an audience often wants to see/feel/relive.)
With all that said, however, all of that is very subjective and each is well within their right to enjoy the game in whatever way they want. So, whatever you guys want to do, please do it and dont let anyone else pressure you into proceeding in a way that doesn't satisfy you. Just wanted to give some input on where the anti-spoiler push is coming from :)
Sorry for all the anti-spoiler pressure you've been feeling, I hope you trust it comes from a deep sense of passion for Xenogears. And hopefully the complainers aren't being jerks about it.
Keep it up guys!
Maria, I think, follows that Super Robot kind of trope (dunno if I'm using the right word). 17 doesn't really needs to be piloted but more like heeds the call of Maria. I can't remember what show it was, I know it was a Tokusatsu show, but it's kinda like how there's a giant monster but there's always a kid involved that it "follows." Like PG 13 Godzilla with the kids.
Btw, as far as I know, 17 is Maria's mother. 18 is her father super brainwashed. These part really felt like Evangelion. I feel I could be wrong and you guys are right that it's an earlier "recorded/scanned?" psyche of Nikolai inside 17, or maybe both. idk.
Yeah is some kind of tribute to old super robot shows (like Giant robo or Tetsujin 28).
the robot have some degree of autonomy and maria just need to give some vocal commands to it
And i also think you are right about maria's mother
16:49 they talk about Bart’s reaction and how it’s not we’ll written, but you have to look at the whole scene. My interpretation is that Bart realized that he almost lost Margie and he really cares of her. I picture him with tears streaming down his face and he’s really saying, “WHY did you put yourself in danger like that!? I LOVE YOU!!” He’s not necessarily calling Maggie stupid but the situation was for her to die for him trying to claim the Omnigear.
That’s how I see it anyway.
I hear the instrument in June Mermaid as a metallic mallet percussion instrument, such as a glockenspiel, rather than a music box. But, it is a bit hard to tell with these old 90's samples, and I can't say so definitively.
If it IS a music box, that's an interesting connection, considering... (SPOILERS)
...
...
...
...
The music box that Citan shows Fei at the beginning of the game was built by Kim, and if you return to Citan's house with Emeralda later in the game you can read a message from Kim on the side of it.
@@Arthirias yeah it's definitely an idiophone backed by a harp. music boxes/orgels do come up a lot in east asian pop culture from what i've noticed, though, so it's possible that they were trying to evoke one without using the actual sound itself
That one is a bit of an urban legend, unfortunately. You can see that message at any point with any party members, you just need to inspect the side of the music box (maybe twice).
I dont believe there is a single game that matches Xenogears in terms of scope. Takahashi was given enough time, I believe the game he envisioned would have easily been twice the length. I consider the game a flawed masterpiece and unlike any other JRPG in existence. But to imagine what it could have been.
spoiler but i never realized (or remembered?) that grahf granting "The Power" was him removing someone's limiter...if that's really what it is that's pretty clever
Apparently it also allows recipients to draw more from the Zohar(?)
My favorite thing about Wednesday!
Yay! More on-screen moments when you describe things! Thanks.
Thanks for this episode gentlemen! The truth bombs are starting to become revealed
I liked how you went deep into the writing process of the script.
I noticed you mentioned Maria and her gear and that she doesn’t pilot inside of it. This seems like a reference to the mecha anime, Giant Robo. Given the size of the robo and how Daisuke rides on Giant Robot’s shoulder the reference seems likely.
Oooh boy! Can’t wait for the next episode
Anyone else reached Ep15 without skipping a minute - despite having never played the game?
FFVII is in my mind the greatest game of all time. This being kind of its weird sibling I really wish I had time to play it, but likely won't, so I've just been running these podcasts in the background while working. I'm not sure if I'm following or not but I'm enjoying listening!
I find it funny about Bart having to be in touch with his feminine side when hes basically being a Tsundere lol
If I remember the implications correctly...
Maria's father was forcibly installed into Achtzen, and before that he left the recording we see in that fight to trigger when Seibzhen confronted him.
Dominia implies that it was Maria's *mother* that was incorporated into Seibzhen, which was the impetus for the Balthasar family to abandon Solaris.
I tend to assume Maria and how she operates her gear is a homage to really old school mecha anime like Gigantor. Early mecha tended to have kids sort of remote controlling their mechs from a distance instead of operating them from some sort of cockpit. There's a ton of references to various anime (specifically mecha anime) series in xenogears, some more blatant than others.
so I was supposed to wait for the ne episode but i had to know what is going to happen and i finished the entire game don't worry i won't spoil anything
No proplemo eh Capron
@@dydhkill7729 what
Awesome, next up is one of my favourite parts!!
Cheers!
In regards to Bart asking Shakhan to kill himself; kind of a stretch but maybe since the Ethos has basically collapsed upon itself by now Bart’s saying Shakhan should go ahead and join the rest of them?
The “June Mermaid” track has appeared once before the fight with Emeralda; it actually plays when she first appears in the tank in the Zeboim ruins. On that note, definitely remember to do the “Lighthouse” subquest near the end of the game, since it’s so vital in expanding on the backstory of a number of the characters (up to Big Joe even...).
great episode as usual!
a few remarks, on the topic of barts speech, I think the term you were looking for mike is constitutional monarchy. this is essentially what britain had in the 1800s and 1900s, where a monarch does have great authority but is limited by a representation of the people and a constitution that he cant violate. i agree its not explained or conveyed well lmao, that's just my thought.
on the gazel scene with krellian, uh, HUGE XENOGEARS SPOILERS
I think the terms might be a bit mixed up. elly is the antitype, not the mother. i could be wrong about this but I believe that the "mother" they are referring too is the human that emerged from the wreckage of the eldritch, or what we later learn to be miang. when they say "her persona, only appears after she reaches a certain age... there is also a high probability that she transmigrated into the antitype." this is setting up a much later scene where elly is taken over by the mother and becomes another miang.
I could be wrong about this interpretation tbh, but its my belief that the "mother" they are referring too is miang.
Went through these pretty quickly. Can't wait for the next episode!!!! Awesome work guys👏👏👏
Mike, there's nothing wrong with letting a first time player speculate. The problem with your defense of spoilers is, whenever Cason guesses correctly, you always confirm his correct guesses and praise his powers of observation, which confirms it for the audience as well and you even go further in guiding him when he brings up uncertainties, such as when Cason said "but Id doesn't look like Fei". You would then convince him that he does look like Fei. When Cason mentioned his speculation about the Eldrige being symbolic of a tower of Babel, before even going there you outright confirmed that Babel Tower is the Eldrige.
And when he guesses incorrectly, you wouldn't say anything, or you would dance around it, making it obvious to your audience that Cason is wrong or not completely on the right track. You're unconsciously spoilerific even if you don't realize it.
You are giving Cason (and your audience) a second playthrough experience as a first time player. As someone who has played it before myself, there are definitely a lot of things you gave away far too early that I wouldn't have done. You are supposed to be confused the first time playing. This is by design. And you're circumventing it by clarifying everything and putting "bookmarks" in points that were intended to be forgotten, telling the audience to remember this for later, which will get them thinking about things they wouldn't have thought about.
The Retro Amnesia guys highlighted some observations but left it there and for the most part didn't spoil future events. Both of them had already played the game previously. There's nothing wrong with having a new player speculate. But when you confirm the speculation as correct or guide it towards the correct answer, that's when you're giving outright spoilers.
*SPOILERS* (For Mike basically)
We do meet "Melchior" the third wiseman later. Taura Melchior is the one that saves Elly and Fei after Solaris is destroyed (with the naked Fei in the tube). As far as I know, those three are the "wisemen" of Shevat. I don't think Wiseman is specifically considered part of that group or at least isn't really said to be connected to them, but the naming is confusing.
The game consistently calls them the Sages, never the "Wise Men." Wiseman is not meant to be one of them.
1:30:00 onward about 17 and 18: from how I intrepreted this was that Nikolai had attempted to transfer part of his mind into 17 initially. Thus, he connected his transferred consciousness as a like...copy of himself, digitally, into the mech to become obedient to his daughter, or in this case, his operator Maria. However, Nikolai, the original, was still alive and kicking. And so that is how 18 is operating based on the original being used to power the processing for 18. Thus, two Nikolai's. One digital and one organic. This was how my 16 year old self rationalized how the two mechs operated.
On transmigration and the antitype, it helps to consider what Krelian is saying with respect to the biblical meaning of these words:
Transmigration: the passage of a soul after death into another body
Antitype: one that is foreshadowed by or identified with an earlier symbol or type, such as a figure in the New Testament who has a counterpart in the Old Testament
So when they say that the Mother persona, a.k.a. a very specific social identity, has transmigrated into the Antitype, we're dealing with a soul who manifests itself only after reaching adulthood. And this soul has moved onto another body, specifically that of one who was foreshadowed with an earlier type. Elly is the Antitype because she was foreshadowed by her earlier counterparts in both the Zeboim era and 500 years ago (as Sophia) and was destined to bear the soul of the Mother persona.
So we're not only dealing with a recurrence of certain symbolic figures across history, but also with the transmigration of a soul corresponding to a very specific identity across the recurrences of said figures.
Maria rides on Seibezehn as a nod to Giant Robo (and likely some other mecha anime I'm forgetting). I think other glaring examples would be stuff like the elements bearing a vague resemblance to the Sailor Scouts (a weird referential nod to the men all being former elementals could be a weird fourth wall break pointing to saint seiya, food for thought).
I also always read chu-chu as a generic nod to anime, I understand where you're coming from with a dislike of the character, but I feel it's kind of an easy target.
Thanks again guys, I enjoy these every week, and don't let the people complaining about spoilers get to you Mike, my favorite part of watching this series is easily Casen's personal insights and I appreciate how you've circumnavigated spoilers the whole way through.
the mac & cheese is ready 👌
More cheese!
I do very much enjoy Casen’s conjecture on the plot.
Another great episode!
Almost done guys! Thanks so much for the great work! After next episode (Disc 2 Onwards) how many episodes do you guys estimate are left?
I'd guess anywhere from 20 - 25 episodes depending how things go in future episodes, I guess we just wait and see.
I think we'll end up at 21 or 22. 20 to summarize the game with an extra episode or two for recap and guests to appear and offer more analysis.
@@ResonantArc a guess, huh? I'm wondering who that is. 😆
@@ResonantArc yessss recap episodes!
Maria has the best leitmotif❤️
With regards to how Maria pilots her gear: I’ve always been under the impression that she pilots it via remote control from outside. The design of the Seibzehn is most certainly meant to reference a few of the earliest giant robots in manga and anime, Mitsuteru Yokoyama’s Tetsujin 28 (better known in the west as Gigantor) and Giant Robo. Both of those were piloted via remote control from outside as well.
Emeralda is overall my favorite character to play on foot and in gear. Followed by Fei abd Citan. Really after Citan gets his sword him, and Emeralda my favorite on foot party members
Have they gotten into her whole back story yet? I was trying to remember when you come across that city and I've missed a few episodes.
@@theboglimking2603 part of it. the rest is optional later
Please ask Casen whether he translates the song title as "June Mermaid", "September Mermaid", or "October Mermaid". I've seen it translated different ways on different releases of the OST and arranged albums.
I can answer that. The Japanese name is 神無月の人魚 (kannazuki no ningyo). Ningyo is straightforward--it means "fish person." "Mermaid" is a pretty good localization for it, especially since it's the theme song of Emeralda, a female character. "no" is a possessive, basically a backwards "of," so it's the Ningyo of Kannazuki. Kannazuki is less straightforward, but I'll go for it.
Kannazuki is a month from Japan's old calendar that they don't use anymore. Its name roughly means "The Month of Gods." Kannazuki was the tenth month of the year, but that calendar didn't start on the same day as the current calendar, so while its first day is in October, it has more overlap with November. However, modern convention generally equates Kannazuki with October, not November.
"June Mermaid" is an outright error--a complete mistake. However, it's used in officially localized material so it kinda stuck. An argument could be made for "November Mermaid," but the best translation is probably "October Mermaid." I have never seen "September Mermaid" but that also seems like an outright wrong name.
@@WildMatsu thank you! I think it’s called “September Mermaid” on one of the jukeboxes in-game
@@jjfoshay I see. I'm playing along with the podcast, but I missed the M Disk, so the only one I can check is the one in Shevat. I don't remember seeing the song in question on that one.
I’m really not understanding why people keep thinking Mike is providing spoilers in any way. They are analyzing a very in depth game in which Casen has never played. This is not a ‘play through’ so to speak. Idk, if I was playing this game for the first time and was that worried about spoilers I would not watch a series like this anyways. And some other people that are obviously very familiar with this game need to realize that anyone playing this game for the first time are most likely not going to catch on to some references being made by Mike. Just nothing you would catch unless you are very familiar with the game like some of us are. That said, just enjoy it they are doing a great job
that's fine, but they should have said it outright in episode 1, that if you are a new player, you should not listen to this series as a book club format, because Cason is an observant person and will make crazy guesses that end up being right, and I'm going to confirm every time he guesses something correctly. And if he doesn't guess correctly, I won't confirm it, so you can infer that he is wrong and deduce what is the correct answer.
The Retro Am guys have a podcast that's book club format which is actually new player friendly, because they don't discuss spoilers or speculate and confirm.
@@lostn65 He definitely nailed some of his guesses, or at least came so close (yet so far away) at times. In retrospect I’m sure they wish they would have done as you said at least in some form as to not give too much information away and specifically note it wasn’t a book club at least in traditional sense.
One thing I did notice they did in some of the FF X episodes is that they had a specific time stamped segment at the end of a few episodes where they specifically talked about spoilers, or discussed their deeper meaning theories that could give away too much to someone unfamiliar with the game. I made sure to comment myself about that and hope they continue to implement it so people can stop the episode if they want.
It may have been hard to do this with xenogears anyways though cause one of them had not played it. Ah well, overall I thought they did pretty well. I of course loved it cause it just is one game I always occasionally think about even 20+ years later since the first time I played. So was cool to hear the things Cason was getting close on…or those things he was way off on like Ramses being Fei’s dad for instance 😁
Casen's predictions should be 100% fine. I think some people don't like when you tell him to "keep that in mind for later" because more often than not it tends to mean "yeah thats right, but theres more, remember it for later". So just look at Casen when he guesses and no matter how accurate it is, say "Good guess, I suppose we'll see". Everyones happy lol. If people really are sensitive to guesses, then that's probably their problem.
letting him guess is fine. But answering "You're absolutely correct, great observation, I'm so proud of you!" is spoilers. Especially if it was a really out there guess that the average player would not have thought of. That's Mike's style.
28:43 when talking of the lines between Shakkan and Bart. Remember that the Ethos or church was doing some pretty shady stuff and we say Billy who also got caught up in it. I think Bart developed a dislike for the church and anything to do with it. So he’s telling Shakkan to just die, because that all the worth you (and people like you) are to me.
26:00 I took as Bart telling him to kill himself to be more like a martyr.
The "Thames" is not named after the river in England but after the 10th month of the Hebrew calendar "Tammuz" 🙂 (see link below)
It's listed and transcribed in the Xenogears Perfect Works as "Tamz"
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tammuz_(Hebrew_month)
There are other places in the game named after months of the Hebrew calendar. Here are the 12 months :
Tishri, Cheshvan, Kislev, Tevet, Shevat, Adar, Nisan, Iyar, Sivan, Tammuz, Av, and Elul
You probably recognise Kislev, Shevat (Shivat), Nisan, Tammuz (The Thames), Av (Aveh) and last but not least Elul which is how "Elru" should have been transcribed.
My guess is that R.H. did not get the references.
despite the regionally specific pronunciation, i think "the thames" is a good localization for that. it has sailorly associations, and is close in pronunciation to tammuz. ditto the others, aveh and elru work great in context. the references don't need to be direct in order to work (in fact, i'd say the inverse is true; it's best not to be on the nose all the time)
@@tiredastired I see your point, but that's exactly the problem ^^
A good translation is supposed to make its best to restitute the meaning and references intended by the authors.
The fact that "The Thames" has a sailory themed has surely been missleading to R.H and oriented his choice for the name, but that completely erase the harmony the author aimed at.
When an author of culture A chooses to incorporate names themed after culture B into their works, the translator of culture C is supposed to let the names as they are and not localise or alter them.
Of course, that's one way of seeing how translation works and not the only possibility. You can choose to modify or to "translate" everything in the language of culture C, but having discussed that matter so many times with professional Japanese manga translator , it seems to be the best solution to treat the author's work respectfully.
@@tiredastired the best example I could give you is Ramsus Kahran.
His first name should have been transcribed as "Carlin"
This choice completely erase the original connection with Carl Jung whose work, as you know, runs deep into the game's script influences.
@@oboronyon and that's exactly my point - Ramsus Carlin would be a distractingly terrible name for that character. not every reference needs to be so explicit - it's certainly not in japanese, either. even to westerners, Ramsus Carlin wouldn't have been a name anybody would've associated with Carl Jung...so why bother?
@@tiredastired @sleepdedication I think you make a confusion between what suits your taste and your ideas and what the subject of a translation is.
The player, the translator, anybody really cannot decide whether it's a better choice or not. If the author choses "Carlin" or "Tammuz" then that's the way to go.
Sure, you may prefer the old US adaptation and that's totally fine by me if you do.
So, to the question "why bother ?" I'm just answering that it's not the way it should have been translated in the first place because that's the translator's vision, not the author's.
Side note : They rarely call him カーラン "Carlin" (Kahran) in the game. They refer to him as カール which is exactly the katakana used to transcribe "Carl" in the Japanese dictionary ^^
This series is nuts. 15 videos and we’re not even out of disk 1.
The next episode will finish Disc 1. We're almost there!
Makes sense. Disc 1 is 80% of the game.
Bart being king is more of a symbol. I think Emperor Cain is also that but has a little more influence on things. What is the word? poster boy? Figurehead?
1:02:09 Coriolis effect, windspeed, wind direction man lmao but yeah that's funny the first time i saw that scene
1:17:37 Wait is a baton a wand? Elly's gear is a magical girl whatever. Idk..
1:32:44 Nikolai did say that he transferred data to Seibzehn maybe that was Nikolai's consciousness, like the last drop of humanity, soul in him, was now transferred. But nothing concrete. People even speculate that Seibzehns Nerve/conciseness circuit or whatever is Maria's mother but there are some timeline issues with it since Nikolai already sent Maria and her mother out of Solaris(Using Seibzehn?) by that point. Again nothing concrete. But the only thing we are sure of is Seibzehn is a product of a lot of "not so alive wels".
51:10 The king of a desert nation with technology to explore under the desert and that has two sons, one has to take the throne and the other is missing, where did I see that again? Oh yeah, Edgar and Sabin Roni Figaro from FF VI.
Casen has the best guesses. I'm not saying if their right or not.
I don't exactly know how to put this.. but i kinda feel left out with this Xenogears podcast. I'm sure the game is an absolute must but I missed it as a kid.. and it has gotten pretty hard to follow the podcast after an episode or two. It's a shame that FF8 and Nier had only 5 episodes, when this one is already 14 episodes into it. I love your work and I've been following you guys for years, so I'm glad for all the people that can follow along on this journey.
FF8 and Nier were done at a monthly pace, so 5 episodes took 5 months. Xenogears is done at a weekly pace; 15 episodes is just shy of 4 months. It's not taking any longer.
We're on the tail end of the game now but I'd really have recommended playing along with it to anyone who hasn't played it before. The pace is pretty slow and it's really not that big of a time investment.
It thought they explained that Maria’s gear had her moms soul/Brain.
I think that's only mentioned in the Perfect Work, but that's always been my head canon that it's her mother is in the robot.
You did a great job reminding me of this scene from Holy Grail.
Woman: Well I didn't vote for you!
Arthur: You don't vote for kings!
Woman: Well 'ow'd you become king then?
Arthur: (holy choir music fades up) The Lady of the Lake-- her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why I am your king!
Man: (laughingly) Listen: Strange women, lying in ponds, distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some... farcical aquatic ceremony!
Arthur: (yelling) BE QUIET!
Man: You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!!
Arthur: (coming forward and grabbing the man) Shut *UP*!
Man: I mean, if I went 'round, saying I was an emperor, just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!
Arthur: (throwing the man around) Shut up, will you, SHUT UP!
Man: Aha! Now we see the violence inherent in the system!
Arthur: SHUT UP!
Man: (yelling to all the other workers) Come and see the violence inherent in the system! HELP, HELP, I'M BEING REPRESSED!
Arthur: (letting go and walking away) Bloody PEASANT!
Man: Oh, what a giveaway! Did'j'hear that, did'j'hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about! Did you see 'im repressing me? You saw it, didn't you?!
spoilers for the casen bit
i love how he is partly right but he is missing the one key thing. a cetain body surfer we have met but not named yet.
June Mermaid? I thought Emeraldas theme was titled October Mermaid.
@@Arthirias Ah good to know. Thanks for the clarification!
Casen's interpretation of Jungian Persona in reference to Elly/Sophia is ON POINT. I think the confusion is just a result of bad localization/understanding on Honeywood's part.
@@Arthirias I don't know if I fully agree with using the term "personality" -- I still think Takahashi *does* specifically mean "Persona" -- but I think I see what you're getting at.
It's a little hard to be descriptive without using information revealed later in the game, but Casen's interpretation of Elly as "outward"/"conscious" persona and Mother/Sophia as "inward"/"subconscious" true-self lines up with my understanding.
2 days ago it was 23-years-ago XG release date. It would be interesting to hear Casens opinion regarding the feel of the gameplay and graphics when you are in the middle of the game and not finished it yet. Does the visual appearance bother you? Would you like to try it on some emulator with 4k upscale, which is already possible to do?
casen is incorrect, and i think its already mentioned but they wanted to "extract information" from emeralda that was already done, using her to get a reaction is a secondary purpose.
It's crazy how in xenogears the villains are set up as slightly weaker than the heroes, or the heroes are the all powerful monsters
Another story would have the heroes constantly be the underdogs
You guys did a great job, no need to censor yourself. This game been out for what 30 damn years. The big twist have been known.
what if the player was born after the game came out? Or just became of gaming age recently? Is it their fault for being born too late, that all old things should be spoiled for them and they should blame their parents for having them too late? Should everyone know every spoiler for old things made before they were born?
This comment is pretty late to the conversation: but how scenes connect won't be as mysterious and haphazard as Mike suggests. Even games will have storyboards that have rough details about events and composition. The storyboard should flow pretty naturally on its own, while a writer will flesh it out with details in their particular style. So; the staff will surely already have the "big picture" and account for transitions between other parts of the game.
Having said that, when it comes to cutting content for a production crunch, that smoothness can be lost.
Almost into disc 2 territory!
Yes 😍
Clairvoyant Casen
Taura Melchior the wierd frog like old guy
I was counting down!
So the reason that Bart and Margie are in an arranged marriage is deliberate inbreeding in the Fatima line in order to preserve the integrity of the Fatima Jasper. It is either implied or outright stated that this has been going on for a long time with the King marrying their cousin the Holy Mother. So not really a matter of luck that the Jasper is still valid so much as it is a deliberate eugenics programme. Royal inbreeding in order to keep the bloodline 'pure' used to be common in reality and is often common in fiction (Hello Targaryans, at least it’s not actual siblings…)
When Bart blows up at Margie I believe the trope name you are after is called 'Anger born of worry'.
It’s not that people don’t want Casen theorising, it is that they don’t want him guided too closely toward the correct answer, nor do they want it confirming so absolutely before it is due. The way you are doing it now is fine, where you allow him to make his theories but don’t reveal whether he is right or not (unless he has completely misremembered or forgotten something that has already happened in which case a correction is fine)
Billy is the expert on guns but he’s never fired a laser cannon before and he only has two chances. With his first shot he adjusts for wind resistance, giving it his very best guess as to how far off the target he needed to adjust to. With his second shot however he has discovered that he does not need to account for outside factors so aims directly at the target. Movies and games may make it look like snipers just need to aim directly at a target through the scope/laser but in reality they need to aim a certain distance away from the target to account for gravity, crosswinds, air resistance, etc altering how the bullet will travel.
cousin marriage is very common in asian countries btw and not even tabboo. It's only the west that finds it icky, but genetically it's pretty safe.
I got really confused by the bit where no one seemed to know that Bart was the heir apparent. I honestly thought it was common knowledge and that he hadn't succeeded the throne because it was being controlled, not because he hadn't announced himself.
I mean, "falling on one's sword" was a thing in some western cultures too (the Romans being one example).
If you guys could touch on the xenogears references found in xenoblade games (and saga I guess), it’d sure be fun. (Rattan as Xord, etc)…
After the Fatima Jasper reveal I assumed the reason every Fatima has the jasper is because of the arranged marriages in the family. I assume if it wasn't for keeping the jasper then Bart would have been married off to a different noble family instead of to his first cousin.
Next episode is going to be Solaris all the way to the end of disc 1?!? It's either going to be a very long one, or it will be split in two.
@mikebrown7876 Sorry if this has been asked already but what material are you referring to for the notes about the Enneagram personality types? I've looked around for different info on that and it's hard to find anything that describes it really well or in terms like you do.
48:45
Saw that coming a mile away (or it would be "kilometer away"?)