Jack Deere Speaks Out on Paul Cain and Ihopkc Prophetic History
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
- Jack Deere Speaks Out on Paul Cain and Ihopkc Prophetic History. Jack Deere a senior leader in the Charismatic movement goes into great detail about the Kansas City Prophets especially on Paul Cain who is the central figure in ihopkc prophetic history. Jack Deere was a very close friend of Paul Cain and they ministered together with John Wimber in the Vineyard movement. Paul Cain was so deceptive that he was able to get him to break away from his spiritual father John Wimber for him. Jack Deere begins to see the the dark side of Paul Cain and comes to his senses. Paul Cain ends up getting exposed for longtime drunkenness, homosexual lifestyle and spiritual abuse. So Mike Bickle, Rick Joyner and Jack Deere release a public statement about all this because Paul Cain would not repent. Jack Deere decides to write a chapter in his book on Paul Cain dark history and Mike Bickle ihopkc tries to talk him out of it. Jack decides to write the book anyway. Jack Deere states that there was no evidence at all that Paul Cain ever repented and felt remorseful for his sins. RT Kendall states that he died in isolation with a very dark cloud over his life. We want to show compassion and forgiveness to people. But if they will not repent and turn from their sin. We should not let people like this back into ministry or personal relationship.
Jack Deere sums up Paul Cain in two sentences:
1. He had the greatest prophetic gift I’ve ever seen.
2. He was the most abusive person I’ve ever known.
#ihopkc #prophetic #mikebickle
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Deacon At New Life Fellowship church home of Emotional Healthy Discipleship started By Pete Scazzero
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Led living waters and cross current which is a program for the sexual broken and the LBGTQ community
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I’m 67 years old yesterday and I have been following Jesus for most of that. I’m at a place now where I am so sad and so unsure of everything that I don’t know who to trust. I trust Jesus only. Putting these men up on pedestals is dangerous. Jack is just a man, just like the others. There’s nothing more special about him than there is about anyone of us. All of us have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. All of us need to savior. Turn your face to Jesus. Mind your focus.
You are right. Bible says, "trust no man." KEEP putting your trust in Jesus alone . Have tunnel vision for Jesus and His Holy Word, the Bible. Pray for desernment and He will give it to you. Point the way to the cross to a lost and dying world. Sit at His feet and you will learn much. Pray without ceasing. Put on the whole armor of God and keep it on 24/7. Times are serious and short. God is in process of uncovering and exposing all the FALSE ONES. God says enough is enough. They are scattering the sheep and causing some to not believe in Father any more.
Remain steadfast and strong in Father.
Blessings to you.
Rejoice, the best is yet to come.
Lean not on your own understanding ,Trust in God alone,
If the Son sets you free then free you will be.
Only The Lord Jesus as the Power to give Life and to be free in His Holy Spirit,Nobody else.
I greatly appreciated this particular video ❤ I wish I could personally thank Jack Deere for allowing this to be released because it has given so much greatly needed information...and filled in all of the gaps about so many things. His honesty about how he was basically looking for love in all the wrong places was amazing from a leader. I was a unknown person who devoted my life and time to be in the Mike Bickle church from 1983-late 1996 (and then we moved)....and I lived with one of the main pastors family at that time for many years....who hosted other leaders and prophetic people and worship leaders in their home. I was around and familiar with many. Jack Deere was not alone in being swept up in the tidal wave of excitement and hope and newness of awe at what everyone thought was the Lord. They all were. And very very few thought about looking at the fruit in these people's lives. My hope and prayer is that JD will not feel blame , shame, or sorrow about anything he did or did not do. I feel so happy he got free and found the genuine love and truth in Jesus that he had been really searching for ❤ This is horrific revelation about Paul Cain, but it also shows me the times he was lying from the pulpit about his health...making up ridiculous stories about how careful he was about being around women, and his encounter that made him a celibate. He was mild mannered in public...bumbling around. He also gave me one of the most detailed prophecies from the Lord that noone could have known . For me, all of this hidden corruption and mixture alongside truly anointed prophecy, anointed worship and teachings, and smiling sweet acting leaders has been terrible. And honestly....terrifying. So, again, thank you for exposing the truth ❤❤❤
I greatly appreciate your thoughtful comments. I was one of those who came very close of being swept up in that "tidal wave" you mentioned. I remember how in our longings and excitement we would make the trips from Toronto (Canada) to Kansas City and Charlotte just to "hear" and "see" these people sharing "prophetic words and "revelations". Todd Bentley's fiasco at Lakeland (we were there also when all these key figures of the 4th wave movement were there to "endorse" him) did it for me! We now find it so much more meaningful and fulfilling by just being part of a house church and focusing what really matters -- loving God with our all and our neighbour as ourselves!
@tchong77
I am happy to hear that you are still a believer 😅. I am also in a small home church, and love the simplicity and sincerity and the Lord and people ❤ Let's "fight the good fight...finish the race...and keep the faith" ❤
@@diane8907thank you for your testimony. I've come to the point in my spiritual walk with the Lord to prefer small, simple churches than these mega churches that seems to be houses of entertainment
Diane, this has been so traumatic for all of us who were closely connected to KCF/MCF to process. (I was there in the 80's when you were there.) I can honestly say that I'm better for having been there. Being able to reconcile the fact that real anointing of God, prophetic ministry, etc. can coexist along side/ where there is great evil has been such an invaluable lesson for me. (I note that the churches at Pergamos and Thyatira likely had this going on, too.) Sounds like you're in a good place, and you are coming through the shock of this better than ever. Lord continue to bless you, and thanks for sharing!
LOVED " He also gave me one of the most detailed prophecies from the Lord that noone could have known ."
This was a fantastic video! Thank you! For many years I’ve work for and with very famous people/ministries in the charismatic movement and I found very few people and their staff had integrity in any measure and less likely to even say please/thank you. When we were back stage it was hard to convince that they were even saved many times with how they treated any one else other than the other famous/powerful people. So few could reference scripture close to right let alone quote the passage in discussion IF there came about a Bible discussion. We’ve don’t the Word and Jesus such a disgrace.
it's like trying to find food on a garbage dump....in the mind 90-s I attended one of Rick Joyner conferences, and right before that I went to Kansas City to Mike Bickle's church where Paul Cain was ministering....the Rick Joyner conference was an absolute disaster with the crazy music, the arrogance of the speaker was appalling....in Kansas City ,while people were really nice ,the worship band used Vineyard style worship songs, I remember Paul Cain's ministry ...that was shockingly flat...really I saw a man who have nothing to say....yet talking. Then there came the early 2000's with Tom Bentley and Lakeland "revival"...I was thinking "how can the church give a platform to predatory individuals who live in so obvious sins to have influence over a large group of innocent people....and that is by the endorsement of Joyner and the rest....the result of this is people deceived pursuing false visions to this day.......there "prophets'" are without conscience, without remorse wallowing in their own mud...if nothing else the fact that these things are happening, are the sure signs of the last of days
LOVED "it's like trying to find food on a garbage dump..."
@@TornCurtainIJoshuaSimoneToday is Sunday May 26. Im age 66. Been a Christian since 1972. Im currently not connected to a church. I could use your help in connecting w a prayer partner even 5 minutes of agreed prayer would help , for family. Maybe u know someone for me?
Bad behavior has to be exposed and to be accountable!
Joshua, what do you think needs to happen in the Charismatic church in terms of governance to make sure Paul Cain, Bob Jones, Mike Bickle, and the like don’t gain influence in the Church again? At this point, after watching the William Branham Research Society videos, I’m done with all Pentecostalism and done with non-denominational charismaticism. All I’m seeing from charismatics is “we need better discernment” but have not seen anyone suggest any system/governance changes to execute better discernment. I see Bethel, Hillsong, Elevation, and see more narcissists that are still thriving in the Church.
Greetings from Melbourne Australia 🇦🇺
It's so true. Many churches are fundamentally a by product of the youth group church in the previous generation.
This generation has just made that style of church the norm, Now the cool "leaders" with the childish antics and superficial messaging. No gospel, no talk of sin or repentance.
The mega church model is bogus.
We need community churches where the pastor & elders knows even your dogs name.
We need faithful preaching.
This how it used to be.
For some reason Christianity is the only religion in the world that wasn't to make their "sacred space" more attractive (worldly) to the world.
Do Buddhist or Hindu temples do this? Do traditional religions try to compensate for the world at all?
The Christian church wanted church to be cool and hip and vibrant for the children now those children are running those churches.
I think we will always have snakes in the churches. Are they are going to be more common as the day of the lord approaches. We must be wise and discerning in the churches and leaders we pick. We need to really get to know people before following them. Also we want to be in churches which are run by healthy Elder boards and not NAR apostles and prophets
So good to not throw out what is good. Some are using this as a platform to deny the gifts being for today. I can't swallow all of that. However, I have had concerns because the focus on things like stones falling, gold dust, feathers, oil, etc... can put things out of perspective. I happen to know that John Paul Jackson went to a pastor couple I know in Idaho and shared with them his concerns about sexual immorality in the church before he passed. Out of all the KC prophets, I had great respect for him. Lots of weeds are being pulled out to bring forth good fruit. Blessings!
Remember Jim Jones? Let's face the truth even Mike Bickle himself said over 80% of prophecies and manifestations today are false. I think it is 99%. People in the church do not practice 1 John 4:1. They don't read the Bible for themselves with understanding. They just believe everything the "apostle" or " prophet" say.
John Paul Jackson was the one out of the Kansas City prophets that i really enjoyed. The gifts are still for today. We just need to deal with the abuses
Cindy Jacob is a trusted prophetic voice? She gave many prophecies never came to pass. What happened when she said the lying media would turn around during Trump's term. Well, did they?
I was trying to be kind to Cindy. Notice i didn't say she was a trusted source. I know who have said this. I am not familiar enough with her ministry to be honest
There were several that said things about the Trump election, none repented, as near as I could tell. It really makes me question the prophetic culture in the US, when they get it wrong either it gets suppressed, forgotten or excused away.
Great video. Paul Cain was pure and simply a false prophet and an unbeliever. Would a conservative Christian leader ever write the same virtuous benefits of Judas, Diotrephes, or Balaam? When will the American Christians actually read the Bible, improve their spiritual discernment ["the spirit of wisdom and revelation" (Eph 1:17), "all wisdom and spiritual understanding" (Col 1:9)], grow in wisdom, call out sin and hypocrisy, and mark false prophets/apostles? At least the Ephesian church knew how to expose false apostles, "you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars" (Rev 2:2).
Paul Cain practiced sin (homosexuality, drunkenness, and resisted discipline), which revealed that he was a child of the devil. I will add Mike Bickle in this group as well. John wrote, "In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother." (1Jn 3:10)
How else can we read the words of Jesus about false prophets? Most "apostolic" leaders of large American churches in the prophetic movement are not Christians. “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit." (Matt 7:15-17). Paul warned about the same type of person:
• “For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come [eiserchomai] in among you, not sparing the flock.” (Acts 20:29)
• “Also from among yourselves men will rise up [anistemi], speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.” (Acts 20:30)
Without physical persecution, these false Christians have proliferated. John called out Diotrephes because of his exclusion of legitimate Christians leaders like John and others, and warned Christians about him.
• "I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us. Therefore, if I come, I will call to mind his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words. And not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church. Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God, but he who does evil has not seen God." (3Jn 1:9-11)
Finally, in the absence of physical persecution in America, we have produced many leaders who aren't Christians, but appear to be, described succinctly by Paul in 2Timothy. Seminary does not qualify a person to be a pastor, only if/when the Holy Spirit gives Christians the spiritual gifts of pastor and teacher. The Auburn Affirmation is proof that hired pastors can be false believers.
• "having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!" (2Tim 3:5)
• "always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." (2Tim 3:7)
Sowing to the flesh, being dominated by carnality leads to corruption and eternal death. Only when you sow to the Spirit will a person receive eternal life. You cannot be dominated by sin and still receive eternal life.
• "For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life." (Gal 6:8)
• "Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts." (Rom 6:12)
• "But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness." (Rom 6:17-18)
• "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom 6:23)
• "For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." (Rom 8:6)
• "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." (Rom 8:8)
Boy i really hope people read your comments. Such rich information that you provided. Blessings to you brother!
In reality you really dont know if Paul Cain was saved or not, or if he had a genuine gift of prophecy and possibly healing, or not. I suspect he was a Christian who fell into sin, but God continued to allow him to give legitimate prophecies and on occasion healing. That is not a sign of a false prophet, who lead people away from Christ. I am not aware Cain did that.
@@PC-vg8vn you are probably right in your assessment. But for practical Application it might not be worth having to sort through his prophecies to discern he they are when he was under the influence of Holy Spirit. The waters are too mirky. Never said God didn't use him at times. But too much of a mixture of the flesh and spiritual ✨️ 🙏
Josh - *Thank you for posting this video. It is a somber subject, but it very much cleared up all of the misinformation and hidden truths that have needed to be known by the body of Christ. For years I have not understood or been able to process Paul Cain and others who were in process of being subject to restoration. It is very easy for the sheep to be deceived if we don’t have the facts and the understanding of who our spiritual leaders are and how they live their personal lives. It is not gossip, but laying all the facts on the table so that the body of Christ can come to the correct decisions regarding their leaders in light of the scriptures. I especially appreciate your listing of the different kinds of prophets - those who operate as a Christian and those who don’t, with the distinction of where they get their revelations from, the Holy Spirit or demonic knowledge. One of the biggest mistakes that I see the body of Christ doing is believing that gifts - spiritual or natural - make a person spiritual, holy or qualified for leadership. It is clear that the gifts are given without repentance, and we cannot look to a person’s gifting as an endorsement of their spirituality. At 70 years old, I have yearned for the facts to be properly presented with grace and truth about all leadership. There is too much that is being hidden from the body. This has not been a protection, this has been harmful. I appreciate that you post these videos, with the right attitude and heart.
Brother, I'm at about a few seconds after 17:20 where you discuss restoring those whose prophecies don't come to pass. I believe that in our age of grace under the remission of sin through Christ, we as the church are to do all we can to restore believers who fall into false prophecy (in form of evangelizing them in case they never got saved if their fruits are showing that). But I don't believe in restoring their ministry. Not our place to restore a fallen person's ministry even if they repent. God Who calls people to the ministry will Himself restore any ministry He sees fit and in the way He sees fit.
Because we in America have made ministry primarily about the platform, the microphone, and audience, we ourselves have very limited grasp of true ministry from the beginning stages let alone in a restored stage. Back to hearing the video. I appreciate your refreshing videos so much.
Thank you for this video. It's like a breathe of fresh air to hear from someone form the "inside" telling as it is. I would defitely love to hear R.T. Kendall's take on this.
Thank you for taking the time and effort to put this video together, you are doing a great job. I think the bottom line is that the prophetic movement needs purity, holiness, godly character to be at the foundation of everything. A true prophet will always lead you to repentance, following Jesus, walking in the truth. We definitely need Matthew chapter 7, knowing a tree by its fruit.
Good word! Thanks.
LOVED "We definitely need Matthew chapter 7, knowing a tree by its fruit."
Amen. Communication with the enemy is rampant today. Be a detective not a dupe.
Thank you for commenting John!
Dear Brother Tom. Thank you for your courage and your heart in seeking the Lord and his truth. Please Study Acts 16:16. There was a woman with a powerful prophetic gift that allowed her to earn a lot of money from it. Do you see any similarity in this story. Gifts are irrevocable, but the question is what spirit will fulfill and use this gift? whether it is a spirit from the devil or the holy spirit. This is easily recognized by the person's sinful or holy life. In our times, such a woman could be a prophetess at many conferences. Paul did it in three days. Today, dozens of years are not enough because someone said an accurate prophecy and it doesn't matter what spirit it comes from. The Word of God is ignored and so often calls for examining the spirits and not, first of all, the accuracy of the prophecies, because it is simple and does not provide an answer from which spirit it came. Greetings in the name of Jesus.
Once you get big and money starts rolling in.... you NEED accountability and you need to watch your own life closely.
Success in ministry can become a curse. Success is one of the biggest spiritual test we will have to face
Ihopkc had built on some bad foundations and poor materials; some structures were not built to last, able to stand the test of time and eternity. There was clearly a lack of holiness, sound biblical theology and discernment from the Holy Spirit.
LOVED "There was clearly a lack of holiness, sound biblical theology and discernment from the Holy Spirit."
@@TornCurtainIJoshuaSimonestill waiting on your documentary on Bob Jones.
@@jameslinmdme too
Josh, great reporting! I have been going back to your channel offer with all the chaos and mega pastor fall out going on.
I was a young charismatic/ traditional believer in the early 90’s and met a few Christians caught up in ihopkc and Paul Cain and Bob jones specifically. I had a major sense of caution with these guys.
Thank you for helping to sort out the good prophets- Deere, JPJ, the Anglican guy, etc.
Note, I know this is big in the discernment guys, but it appears to be true that many of the power prophets are on the circuit and on the dollar of the church. Thanks again !
RT Kendall
Thank you my friend 🙏
That question is vital, and until we understand this issue, and answer this question we will continue to be prey to powerful men without character.
Just wondering, did Elisha go round bragging about being given Elijah’s mantle, or did he go around doing what God instructed him to do?
LOVED "Just wondering, did Elisha go round bragging about being given Elijah’s mantle, or did he go around doing what God instructed him to do?"
Josh, I only heard Paul Cain speak once (at MCF, likely in 88 or 89), and my read on him was not positive, despite Mike introducing Paul with a glowing endorsement. Perhaps Paul was the "shiny new toy," and Bob Jones was beginning to be phased out. I strongly suspect that Paul's serial homosexuality and drunkenness were actually well known early to Mike, if not to others. In any event, the fact that he was offered a "restoration program" when things were publicly exposed appears to be completely different to how Bob Jones was treated when he fell in sexual sin. I understand Bob was out the door quickly. This contrast in how Mike managed these two esteemed prophetic voices is not coincidental.
I will reach to you soon. I want to speak on the phone so we can talk more about ihopkc prophetic history. I think you have rich insight that people need to hear
Brother, I was never impressed with Paul Cain.
I watched him on the astroterf multiple times.
However, he was occasionally used by God.
Matthew 7:22
Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
Very good points my friend!
Thank you for your strong, but measured, approach to this issue! This is a much needed conversation. I think it's hard to know what to do with these extreme personalities in the church because of their charisma and ability to garner and maintain attention. Your continued attention to this issue is crucial to the body of Christ.
Thank you Dr. Anita. I much appreciate your support 🙏
I’ve struggled long and hard about what standards to apply. But to hear you recite this list of woes, it has to be a no brainer. But hindsight is so clear, and life isn’t!
The Bible says we have to test the spirits to see whether they are from God and keep the good. I guess people use that to justify serving you stew with bones, but I think it means to test for whether you’re even going or order that particular stew and sit down to eat, not about what bits of bone and gristle you will deem chewable!
Chris Roseboro (I’ve misspelt that I’m sure, sorry) has presented a video analysing this question about the standards we should expect for a prophet. I found it helpful. For one thing, why would the standards be different from the list we’re given for our leaders, since their words will lead us? While obviously acknowledging we don’t stone anyone anymore, but that church discipline should be a thing (and often isn’t) we should still assess to what, and therefore to whom, we listen. And act accordingly.
So the test will be (just like in the bold Testament!)
on content:- is it biblical?
on orthodoxy - even if a word comes true, would the speaker lead us into error on some other point by his teaching or example?
and on the lifestyle of the speaker - because that’s teaching by example, and may dishonour God.
Yes there may be amazing wonders, that are truly supernatural (as well as some obvious tricks I could think of), but doesn’t the Bible warn that we can expect lying signs and wonders? Thinking of the feats of the magicians who competed with Moses for Pharaoh’s attention, they did some cool stuff. Satan isn’t powerless at this point. So a miracle or a prophecy that comes true still may not be holy.
Jesus told us: by their fruits we shall know them. Given signs and wonders might lie, that should therefore mean we’re to test the fruits of the person involved. As Chris said, we must test the source, and early on, before we fall for the message, or even taste how good the gravy is on those bones!
I don’t know about how many strikes before you disallow someone, but the safest number is 1. You’re spot on about repentance. And forgiveness is then possible, but you don’t take your brain out at that point.
That’s my take fwiw. Thanks for the video.
Thanks for this reference. I listen to you read while reading the text myself. You misread the word Armenia, calling it America: "On that day two earthquakes struck Armenia just minutes apart" Later, you said ""He would tolerate rivals," when in fact the text says, "He would not tolerate rivals."
Thank you for pointing this out. I need to do better with reading.
In a nutshell, attend a church where the word of God is central and not the words of men.
Great job Josh! These are hard subjects to take on but I commend you for facing it directly. If we ever needed to have these discussions it’s now. God is calling us to greater purity and deeper accountability. I love Jack Deere’s honesty and vulnerability. There’s so much to learn here. Thank you for dealing with it in grace AND truth. You carry a shepherds heart. How we need more shepherds and less hirelings! God bless you!
Pastor Mike Hendon
Thank you so much Pastor Mike!
The things that Jack said in his writing here remind me of Paul in 2 Corinthians, where he talks about the "Super (false) Apostles ", who enthralled the Corinthian believers with their swelling words. These false leaders abused the Corinthians in many ways and basically just took from them, while Paul truly loved the people and showed it by his actions.
False prophets and apostles are a big theme all through scripture
Read Jack Deere's Full Article Here:
stephendeere.substack.com/p/jack-deere-my-desire-for-power-enabled
I remember reading one of Brother Kenneth Hagin Sr.'s books where he shared a story of a minister who at one time was used mightily in the gifts of the Spirit, specifically word or knowledge and prophecy. The Lord said to Hagin, "That fellow has familiar spirits." The minister was doing things like telling people how much change they had in their pockets or the fact that they had a pack of a certain brand of cigarettes on them; silly, trivial things. He would say "If I'm not a prophet of God, how would I know that?" Hagin observed the nonsensical nature of these "revelations, "so called.
I appreciated this about Bro Kenneth E Hagin. He actually wrote a book called The Midas Touch which addressed some errors concerning prosperity in his own movement. It was refreshing to see this.
Kenneth Hagin Sr. wrote books plagiarizing EWKenyon who promoted and wrote metaphysical occultic and gnostic ideas. Hagin's books copy Kenyon's books word for word. Hagin claimed this material came to him in divine visions and dreams. Obviously he either lied or a familiar demonic spirit gave it to both of them. Hagin had many heretical teachings. He was a false prophet and teacher.
Brother Hagin was a true man of God. But many people have taken his teaching and turned them into name it and claim it and the prosperity gospel. He is rolling in his grave now to see what the church has made of his teaching.
Nothing but respect for Jack Deere as he stands up like a man of God to renounce his sins, his mistakes and his faulty judgement at the tme
Jack Deer wants his last stage to be right with God
Jack's letter also modeled repentance.
I think the Lord has allowed the shaking in the prophetic so we will put our eyes on the Lord, where they should have been the entire time. I’m not as gullible as I was and for that I’m grateful. The Lord cautioned us about deception and I think we are finally getting the message!
Do I believe God still speaks? Most certainly I do. I hear His voice daily as He opens up His Word to my spirit and there are those special occasions when He just tells me how much He loves me. The shaking in the prophetic has drawn me closer to the things of God as i fasten my eyes on Him, the author and finisher of my faith.
LOVED " I hear His voice daily as He opens up His Word to my spirit and there are those special occasions when He just tells me how much He loves me."
I agree with your assessment of Paul Cain.
Thank you my friend. Blessings to you
It was Bob Jones, not Paul who was the founding prophet. Cain came later. Paul was with HRSMV when he died. Hardly alone. He also had a woman who he treated like crap who wanted to marry him. Pam Clark.
R T was who I wrote to not believing the accusations against Paul. RT wrote me back and said it was true.
Hey Josh; I have a reading recommendation for you (maybe you already know the book): it's Tyconius, The Book of Rules -- and there especially Rule II: The Lord's Bipartite Body. It really helped me to understand, how a lot of what we're witnessing today is possible and might be explained.
This is the kind of ministry that's balanced. I hope have these kinds of ministry in the Philippines.
I appreciate the support!
Thank you for bringing things to balance! I have an unsettling spirit about most of these prophets we see now days. I believe in the prophetic, but I think it is more of God's character that He is working through people who will never been known for it!
LOVED "I have an unsettling spirit about most of these prophets we see now days. I believe in the prophetic"
I am confused about the statements made regarding earthquakes in 1998 killing 60,000 people. Even the 1994 Northridge earthquake only killed 65 to 70 people, there has no been any earthquakes killing such an excessive amount of people. Even the 1906 earthquake killed 3000. Can anyone clarify?
Here is the quote from Jack's Article:
Paul’s visit to the Vineyard was so supernatural that he quickly came into John’s inner circle and was invited to minister at all the major conferences. Paul returned to Dallas four days later, on December 7, and the big earthquake that he prophesied came to pass. On that day two earthquakes struck Armenia just minutes apart. The first was 6.9 and the second was 5.8. They killed at least 60,000 people and destroyed almost half a million buildings. I had never heard of God authenticating a prophet like this. I thought to myself, he must be special, the godliest prophet on the earth. And it made sense to me: it would be just like God to put great power in the frailest of packages.
Its interesting that some are bringing the heavy guns on this side of the Body, but ive always sense an imbalance of ALL of aspects of the Western Catholic/Anglcian/ Lutheran/Calvinist/Wesleyan branches of the Body of Christ.
The Wesleyan/Methodist/Holiness/Pentecostal/Charismatic/Prosperity/WOF etc, etc have always had issues of erroneous teaching, abuse of authority, abuse of gifts, exalting men, ministries, church branches over the Preeminence of Christ.
HOWEVER, there are more Continuation/Charismatic circles are having Christ centered and having a marriage witht Holy Spirit and His Word local churches.
Last history, the book of Revelation, the espistles the apostles have shown that there was NEVER a perfect church.
To strive for perfection is indeed madness. To strive for excellence is the way of Jesus
Good morning Joshua and thanks for your faithfulness to share what the Lord is putting on your heart. I believe it is extremely important and that the Lord is using it to bring us into a place of greater accountability and understanding. The tree is being shaken and wheat and chaff are being separated. Joshua, I sent you an email a few days ago. I am not requesting a reply, as that is your prerogative. I am simply wondering if you received it. Thanks.
We will connect this week
Usually - not always - those who claim to be a watchman on the wall want to be able to criticize others and the church, without accepting the responsibility of being a prophet. But I would remind these Watchmen on the Wall that the original watchmen faced outward from the city towards potential enemies, rather than turned inwardly towards the Body to criticize it. If these were truly watchmen/prophets, they would actually predict events that effect their Body, city, county, state, province, country and the world. They rarely do. Not, the big, ticket items like war, famine, disease, drought, storms, ect.
Don't get me wrong. The Church should police itself from within. And we do a lousy job of it. We have a tendency to be caught off guard when a leader is exposed by the world, when those who are close to him/her probably saw things that concerned them but said little or nothing. When the prophet and then the world has to bring correction, the Church has failed to do their job, great shame is brought to the Body, and great injury to the Head of the Church.
And even now, we claim that a fallen leader was fine UNTIL...,but before they had many great years of ministry to the Body, and we should RESTORE them, not realizing that they may have not been right for years, or ever had been right. A drunken, homosexual laid hands on a fellow drunken, homosexual, who had an affair with a female intern, during supposed the greatest revival in the world, while filmed by God TV, and the top apostles and prophets sanctioned it, allow him to divorce his faithful, God-fearing wife, marry the Jezebel he had the affair with, give him a platform to start ministering again, and are surprised when the hog return to hits wallowing, and the dog to its vomit.
FOLKS, WE ARE NOT LEARNING!!! BTW, God showed me the position we should take before all this unfolded and I ministered it in several venues. We don't have to be caught with our pants down. The gold standard is not even faithful ministers, BUT RATHER, God's written word found in the Bible, and what God shows us personally. The Bereans were commended for this. The Anabaptists followed this example. New Testament prophets did not hold the position that they do today in the Charismatic Church. Leaders are NOT the gold standard. YOU ARE SADLY MISTAKEN who follow them.
BINGO "A drunken, homosexual laid hands on a fellow drunken, homosexual, who had an affair with a female intern, during supposed the greatest revival in the world, while filmed by God TV, and the top apostles and prophets sanctioned it, allow him to divorce his faithful, God-fearing wife, marry the Jezebel he had the affair with, give him a platform to start ministering again, and are surprised when the hog return to hits wallowing, and the dog to its vomit. "
LOVED "The gold standard is not even faithful ministers, BUT RATHER, God's written word found in the Bible, and what God shows us personally. The Bereans were commended for this."
Thanks, Josh. Man, I just went down the rabbit hole and breezed through Ernie Gruen's report of KC prophets, specifically reading about Bob Jones and how MB basically ran cover for him. Sheesh. I had to stop.
It should be noted that Ernie did fall into moral failures himself. And many close to him said many of the things he said were because of personal issues with Mike. However some of what Ernie had to say is clearly coming to pass now
@@TornCurtainIJoshuaSimonewow I listened to the sermon but didn't know he had moral failings. Man who can you trust in leadership? Seems like everyone is compromised
@@kevinevans8892 Their are many good churches and pastors. But we really need to take the proper time to choose these leaders. The days are dark
Here is my question...., if the larger charismatic church is SO gifted, and SO anointed, and SO much more a movement of God than the non-charismatic church, why is the charismatic church so bereft of true discernment and wisdom? The charismatic church breeds heresies and scandals like a swamp breeds mosquitos. Just why is that?
LOVED " if the larger charismatic church is SO gifted, and SO anointed, and SO much more a movement of God than the non-charismatic church, why is the charismatic church so bereft of true discernment and wisdom?"
Thank you bro for this video, very well done. Question for you, I am not really following what you are saying about an unbeliever operating in the power of God, what would be a biblical example of this? Balaam is the only one I can come up with, is that the kind of situation you are talking about? I look at the sons of sceva trying to do this and it didn't turn out well for them :) Thanks bro!
People who hang around the Christian community but never got saved begin to do things in Jesus name that they learned from watching other charismatics. It would include those like the sons of sceva although you cannot cast out demons without authority which requires a real relationships with Jesus.
Matthew 7:22-23 ESV
[22] On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ [23] And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness
Torn my brother your words hit me about spiritual father
@@coachc.a.googleads praise the lord!!!
@@TornCurtainIJoshuaSimone praying God raise people who are operate in the gifts of the Holy Spirit and rooted in God's word
I do wonder what you think of his nameless faceless generation prophecy? It is the one thing I really took in.
I do not know what you are referring to. Can you elaborate?
You are describing a person with multiple personalities at the end of your show. Perhaps some of these people were victims of MK Ultra Mind Control. If you check out people that help other survivors of MK Ultra (like Gina Phillips, for instance), you’ll find out why this might be possible. For one thing, I heard a video similar to yours.. only this guy was talking about Paul Cain’s connection to high level government agencies/people.
Jack successfully explains the difference in ir and nt prophets in his books including A Beginners guide to the prophetic
Ministry for example when Agabus missed it Paul didn’t say take him out and stone him. This is too big of a teaching for me to touch on.
Jack was hoodwinked by Cain. Wimber saw it first after also being deceived but came around and caused somewhat of a riff between he and Deere cause Jack was still star struck.
Deere is a Scholar we can learn from.
Wimber was a very gifted man also very intelligent and without reproach.
Cain had a gift that most likely ended in the demonic because of his lack of repentance.
Very good comments my friend. God bless you rich insights and wisdom on the matter
Eph. 4:12 is not being fulfilled, if it were then 1 Cor. 14:26 would be the blueprint for our assemblies. We ALL are supposed to be mature enough to PARTICIPATE and to bring a prophetic word from God, sadly we are still in the diaper and bottle change stage looking for someone else to tell us what God is saying. It should be very clear in a mature assembly if a word is from God or not. Whether something is of God or not is not supposed to be decided by committee or majority vote.
I for one appreciate your attitude and humility in your podcasts. You present quite differently from those who are finding a 'false prophet' under every bush for click bate to make a buck or two. That stuff is hateful and not from God in my opinion.
We must distinguish between a critical spirit and discernment. It is not wrong to point things out that are clearly wrong. It is wrong to criticize everything and everyone
more youtube channel like this amen
Thank you so much
Hey Joshua! @TornCurtain Ever heard of Lonnie Frisbee? Didn't he repent and try to go a different way? Perhaps a comparison of Paul and Lonnie?
I would not out Lonnie in the same category with Paul. Although they are similar in some regards. Both struggled with ongoing homosexuality's and sexual immorality. At that time the church didn't have many good teaching materials on those subjects like we have today. We need to look at how to church restores people in these situation which could take years. And we have to also make sure the church isn't too harsh with fallen leaders that it might inhibit their healing process. But we can't be too soft with these cases either
Brother, so thankful for your ministry.
Never followed Ihopck.
In the charismatic fellowship I am with, I never hear the Word on persecution, suffering for the gospel, Being content with such things as we have. Having enough to share with the poor.
Working with our own hands to provide for the family, having enough to give to help others.
I want to see the gifts of the Holy Spirit in operation.
Learning about the Brennan cult, Stuff he taught were so false and yet he healed people?
Paul Cain was just a man infected by William Brennan. Horrible. As was Mike Bickle.
Have you watched the movie “prophet suddenly” ?
No i'll check it out
We need more of the gift if discerning of spirits as Cain was always moving in occult prophecies not of the Holy Spirit.
Unfortunately even if everything that you have said about certain watchdog ministries is true, the present times has shown that at minimum they are a necessary evil.
I appreciate this video and the information from Jack Deere. I think that’s right on. Thanks for sharing! However, I don’t think it’s right to lump Shawn Bolz in with Paul Caine without evidence. Shawn was traveling with John Wimber from a very young age. I think it may be possible that Jack Deere or others may be able to answer questions if asked about him. So, I just think that’s important to investigate first. Thanks again for looking into all this for us, though!!
I don't know Bolz but I have seen a few excerpts of him reading from his phone while on stage giving prophetic words. Is it true that he reads information about people on his phone? Honest question. Not looking to bash the man
I took John Paul Jackson’ prophetic class. He said because most of the prophetic people are left brainers, made them more vulnerable to the temptations,and other struggles.God will use a prophetic voice mainly based on the willingness to be used. Gift is a gift, if a person has a gift of singing, moral failure will not affect the singing skills. Church should not put anybody on the pedestal.
We must distinguish between the average joe and leaders in the church. In the New Testament error leaders in the church are required to live above reproach. And if they do not they must be removed from ministry until they can regain reputation (If possible). They will still have gifting. But it should not be used in corporate settings.
Qualifications for Overseers
3 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2 Therefore an overseer[a] must be above reproach, the husband of one wife,[b] sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.
@@TornCurtainIJoshuaSimone I agree with you. My point is , some people go to another extreme, thinking all their prophecies or ministries are from evil etc.
@@kaedebao8913
Three Types of Prophets:
1) There are spiritual prophets who use their prophetic gift wisely to bless the church and to lead unbelievers to the Lord.
2)There are carnal prophets, true believers with a true gift of prophecy, who use their gift to exalt themselves and who cause division in the body of Christ.
3) And there are false prophets. There are two kinds of false prophets: unbelievers who use the devil’s power and unbelievers who have learned how to traffic in the Lord’s power.
Mike should have been in jail and put on a sex offender registry
"...through unbelievers who have learned to traffic God's power..."? I beg to differ with that! Unbelievers have only access to "familiar spiritis" and other demons. In no way can an unbeliever ever utilize the power of God in a real sense. Where would we get if that was possible; imagine! Let's be clear about this point.
Very true indeed
Wasn't Paul Cains mother grandmother and Great Grandmother all psychics? Well that's likely where some of the accurate prophecies came from???
Leave the charismatic lie.
I don't think its cut and dry. I think we want to keep the good things in the charismatic movement and deal with some of the abuses. I still believe in the power of God to touch people's lives
Thats what that mixed seed that carter colon spoke on over 20 years ago.
You Don’t come across as critical brother.
Thank you
These phrophets that have a mixed message they are people who can hear in the spirit they fail to identify when its not God in part they love the attention they get from it. They fail to remain humble. I speak from experience as i have a loved one like that. At one time, he heard God like anyone else God gave him insight to healing and breakthrough. But occasionally, he would say things that just did not seem right. I could not rap my brain around it for years why it seemed God was conterdictive or completely harsh with no mercy. The one that i know always had an issue when someone pointed out a fault there is more to the story, but that's it in short.
You said it better then me
They could be ????
The enemy has “some” truth ???
Jesus said he is they father of lies.
“Test the spirits and see if they be of God.”
You a wise man Doug. Most people do not know the devil can dispense some truth
@@TornCurtainIJoshuaSimone
Respectfully Joshua, I must disagree.
It is much more accurate to say that the evil one, the forever loser, the fallen and defeated one only twists and perverts the truth dispensing “mixture” which when listened to, produces fear, confusion, doubt and unbelief. There is no truth to be found in him whatsoever.
No light in him. Only shades, shadows and darkness.
How sad and tragic it is that “hireling” pastors have listened to his lies and repeated them from their pulpits. Wolves in sheep’s clothing!
Paul tells Timothy; “Preach the Word……”
The TRUTH sets us free from the wicked wiles of the devil.
Real Truth is pure, holy, unadulterated LIGHT. The scriptures tell us God is light and in Him, there is NO darkness at all.
Jesus plainly tells us;
“I AM the way, the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by Me.”
No other way.
No other truth.
No other life.
False teacher Cindy Jacob’s and Derek Prince , wow trusted voices . Why isn’t the written word of Yahweh sufficient. There is no prophetic movement, at least not from Yahweh. ❤
I wouldn't put Cindy Jacobs (i was trying to be kind to her) and Derek Prince in the same class
Cindy J is a trusted voice?????
I said others i know find her to be a trusted voice. I personally don't pay attention to her ministry
An occult spirit of deception... how do u think new agers move in psychic predictions and healings.
What did Jesus do for me?
Can anything else compare?
Revelation 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation
Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes
the difference between criticism and discernment is the word of God. if it can be shown that prophets and “apostles” are speaking what God hasn’t? then one can be considered discerning.
your statement about meat and bones is a perfect example of ignorance about what “we” are called to do… preach the gospel, period. there’s no bones to spit when teachers stick to biblical basics.
No one on earth has perfect Theology. So we must no accept everything anyone says these days. Yes we preach the gospel. But Theology and doctrine is important as well
@@TornCurtainIJoshuaSimone
i suppose that’s my problem with all too many continuationists and especially their leadership. they DON’T preach the gospel, even in part. the meat/bones comment alone is used far too often to reassure people who don’t understand scripture. it’s a low key form of thought control to “admit” i don’t have it all right so you can trust me in other things even if they don’t match God’s word.
mine isn’t a knee jerk reaction mr. Joshua. i’ve sat under false teachers many times over the years and it wasn’t until i learned to read the word in context using trusted hermeneutics to see where they lied, over and over again. character isn’t even a good measure of fruit or salvation. i hear in your words, trust but verify. that only goes so far when the undiscipled believer wants to be deceived
Josh...I once asked you about Amanda Grace. You sorta thought that she was a little "off" cause she takes care of animals.
You know Mark 16:15 says all creation. Animals are part of His creation.
One of my sisters in Christ, Father had her taking in cats to care for. ..
Part of His creation.
Also, I have followed Amanda for years. Thus far she has been spit on with Words from Father.
She backs up prophecies given to her from Father, with the Word, and also when they come to pass.
Father led me to her. It was no coincident. I know that over 80% of so called prophets out there are FALSE. Shameful how the
"church" is falling like dimonoes on a daily basis.
Like He told me, now is the season that He is uncovering and EXPOSING all those who do not represent Him. Thank God is all I've got to say. Jesus is returning for a bride without spot or wrinkle and we ain't there yet. BUT.....ALL IT TAKES IS A REMNANT !
BLESSINGS....
I absolutely love animals. And gods love for animals are covered in the bible. The issue thought was strange and Amanda claimed to be a modern day Noah and God was sending animals to her property. Sounds new age to me. Amanda seems like a very sweet soul. But we need to be very careful. Satan can come as an angel of light (animals). I have a neutral feeling for Amanda at the moment
What I hate is people making a name for themselves by throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Lakeland failed as did Pensacola and Azusa and every other revival. But Azusa subsequently conquered the world to this day. If you can listen to "in the presence of angels" original recording and not be moved, your wood is wet. And Roy Fields is doing revivals.
There is a HUGE difference between Lakeland and Azusa street. They shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence. Lakeland wasn't a revival but a disgrace. Azusa did end but not in moral failures
@@TornCurtainIJoshuaSimone Azusa ended in serious discord. And if you think no one was touched positively by Lakeland, that's a problem. "Disgrace" doesn't differentiate you much from the riff Raff heresy hunters.
@@TornCurtainIJoshuaSimonehave you read Frank Bartleman's Azusa Street? It's an eyewitness account of the historic revival. It was definitely a move of God, although I am reading allegations about Charles Parham engaging in sodomy and practicing segregation. But Azusa was most definitely a mighty move of God
@@loonhauntTodd Bentley is a false teacher, who is currently living in adultery. I have no doubt some folks were touched by the Lord at Lakeland but that was despite the "revival" and it's main promoter, Bentley. 2 Chronicles 7:14 outlines what true revival is. I don't care how gifted and dynamic you are or how much time you spend in prayer and fasting, if you are living an unholy, filthy life your works will be outright rejected by the Lord.. 1 Samuel 15:22 says to obey is better than sacrifice
@@kevinevans8892 I agree that Azusa was genuine. Read many books on this subject. Charles wasn't around for most of it
These a Chap that blocks comments then highlights some one that will rebuke you i sensed it in the Lord it will go like that im not in any Ministry these days but Its Freely Freely as the Old Song goes mm in the days manny years passed back then no one charged any one to get a top priority for prayer line $$ as the Blocker of Comments does Wasent that sorta thing harshly Rebuked by ST Peter to a guy named simon the sorcerer RUclips Not good to learn or be tough about the Lord Is the King going to open a youbube teaching on His Great day or Will he open the Bible 1Jn 2:27 But the Anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. if you want to use youtube use it to Listen to those Good O'll Church Songs thay are all there on youtube ..enemies Defeated by our ?..Praises powers of darkness scatter as we praise the mane of the Lord Were can i Flee from Your Presence o Lord
Maybe Paul had whatever biden has.
he he he......
At this point I'm very hesitant to trust those that are jumping on the bandwagon and bashing anybody associated with IHOPKC. It's just too easy to bash right now . This guy has no credibility
To me, he has credibility and humility. Joshua has been very gracious in his discussions about IHOP, which is a moral cesspool. Folks who take issue with Torn Curtain's handling of IHOPKC probably believe Mike Bickle is innocent and is being unrighteously targeted by the enemy. I find it deeply troubling that the IHOP apologists have expressed no sorrow or regret about the young brother in Christ whose wife was having a well documented inappropriate relationship with Bickle. But keep deflecting if it makes you feel better.
What do you mean?
Joshua is asking the hard questions that have to be asked and answered. As Christians we just just sit idly and accept everything some guy says without testing it with scripture.
If this was actually done from the beginning then Mike Bickle wouldn't have been able to manipulate so many people and abuse so many women.
We need not be Christian dullards.
Joshua Simone in my opinion has been a little too soft and kind in his approach to all this, but he has always accompanied his accusations with proof and asked the relevant questions that should be asked. He has always been credible.
Did you watch the video. I think any bashing was going on on. I don't think thats my heart or Jack's either
I also hate people making a name for their channel with exaggerations. After several months only two incidents came out against Mike. One was consensual. And the accusers flat out lied and tried to insert several women's names into their accusations which they vehemently denied.
Smoke this. The fall of Israel and the attack on Mike happened in the same timeframe Oct 7.
Started on Bob Jones prophecy on land purchased from Truman's property in Grandview.
And ended with a million month long prayer and fasting in May 2023. The main supporter of Israel in the church.
Why do you hide yourself behind a fake name? Why are you hiding?
Come to Jesus Christ in repentance and faith for the forgiveness of your sins. You are promised eternal life in Jesus Christ. Cry to the Father iin heaven and Repent of your sins for the sake of what Jesus Christ has accomplished in His life, death and resurrection. He will forgive you for your sins and cleanse you from all unrighteousness.
He will take out your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. Your name will be written in the Lambs book of life and you will be clothed in His righteousness.
Turn from your sins, repent and believe in Jesus Christ.
@@andrewhambling I don't. RUclips sometimes gives my name. I don't have any control over it. I have a new permanent email but can't switch my $20 Premium account over without losing my hundreds of playlists I spent years on.
@@andrewhambling I also commented on Facebook with my name of course. And who are you to reprimand me being from the 70's charismatic renewal.
This video was about Jack Deere and Paul Cain. Not Mike Bickle. I'm not here to bash Mike Bickle at all.