Guards! Guards! By Terry Pratchett [SPOILER] Discussion | Discworld
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My favorite quote in "Guards! Guards!" is:
"Each man thought: one of the others is bound to say something soon, some protest, and then I'll murmur agreement, not actually say anything, I'm not stupid as that, but definitely murmur very firmly, so that the others will be in no doubt that I thoroughly disapprove, because at a time like this it behooves all decent men to nearly stand up and be almost heard...
No one said anything. The cowards, thought each man."
It's sooo cutting, so infuriating and still so utterly... human!!
I love how Pratchett can highlight the flaws of people, but becuause of the warmth of his writing it always feels ok. It's not the people are fundamentally evil, it's that they're fundamentally flawed
@@tylerdurham6091 Totally agree. He's criticizing humanity because he loves humanity. I think he absolutely believes in us and "the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape"
@@irian42I've always thought of his tone as a sort of cynical optimism, which makes no sense, except it sort of does? 😅
Yes!! Just like the quote from Lady Ramkin about dragons!
“Doesn’t work that way for dragons. If a poor beasts rolls over and exposes itself, you attack until it explodes! Almost human really”. - Something like that, but it’s very true!
I absolutely need discussion for every Pratchett book. This is necessary! I cannot express how much love I have for Pratchett’s works
"I don't care anymore, I"m just going to do my own thing" is where every pratchett fan ends up landing after all the suggestions haha
There are some fun roadmaps to fall in a good recomendation, do you like animals, politics, some sport and visiting new places, etc. My go to recomendation usually is small gods, guards guards, or monstruos regiment.
The person Carrot arrested was the head of the thieves guild. For being a thief. But in Ankh Morpork the thieves guild is an official, legal institution. As long as you are a member and pay your taxes and guild membership fees, stealing is legal. Unlicenced theft on the other hand is severly punished by the thieves guild. The guild is responsible both for theft and the regulation of theft. As Lord Vetinari says: "If you're going to have crime, it should at least be organized crime." I think it was Vimes who said something like "Next thing you know, he's gonna arrest the head of the assassins guild for bloody well killing people!"
The "million in one chance" scene is one of my most favorite sequences of all books ever. It's just amazing!
I love how often it keeps popping up too! Like when they summoned death in Eric, and he's like "it's rincewind, there's a million to chance he makes it back." "oh that's fine" Im just screaming no! That idiot is born on a million to one chance
I think It also was my favourite moment of the book. It's so funny in a lot of levels.
I'm so glad you're reading this! It's my favorite book series of all time, and I can't wait till you get to Night Watch. My personal favorite bit of philosophical discussion from this book is "Down there - he said - are people who will follow any dragon, worship any god, ignore any inequity. All out of a kind of humdrum, everyday badness. Not the really high, creative loathsomeness of the great sinners, but a sort of mass-produced darkness of the soul. Sin, you might say, without a trace of originality. They accept evil not because they say yes, but because they don't say no."
🥺🥺🥺
This hurt my soul.
@@billyalarie929 It should be noted, the person who says this is by far the most cynical and jaded in the series. I think it's a really good point about how people let bad things happen, but it's not a complete picture of humanity in my opinion. Pratchett has other characters to demonstrate humanity's virtues. But this is absolutely one of our failings.
Same. Also looking forward to Night Watch!
Terry is brilliant. He expouses ideas I believe but seem to remain on my periphery. You put it well when you said that he is advocating kindness. Carrot is the ultimate personification of good public conscience, he's niave, Cheery is a female dwarf pretending to be a male dwarf, Aguila is a werewolf, Sergeant Vimes is world-weary and most likely corruptible. Carrot does care nor judge, he just thinks if everyone treats each other fair and kind then things will probably work out for the best. We need more Carrots in this world.
And the books are hilarious. Try Sike Milligan's book Puckoon or his WW2 books, they're comic tragic but very funny.
Wherever you fall in love with Discworld was the right place to start.
I started at 'Colour of Magic' like everyone doesn't recommend and I still loved it.
Mort is my favourite.
@@somebodywholikessongs1152 I started there as well.
@@somebodywholikessongs1152 that book is absolutely fine. Rincewind is great.
No-one sticks the landing quite like Terry Prattchet. The way he brings threads together is breath taking.
ALL-CAPS SENTENCES ARE SOME OF MY FAVOURITE IN THE DISCWORLD SERIES.
The only series where that’s true!
"You can't go around arresting the Thieves' Guild. I mean, we'd be at it all day!"
One of my favorite Pratchett quotes is from _Thud!:_
“War, Nobby. Huh! What is it good for?" he said.
"Dunno, Sarge. Freeing slaves, maybe?"
"Absol-well, okay."
"Defending yourself against a totalitarian aggressor?"
"All right, I'll grant you that, but-"
"Saving civilization from a horde of-"
"It doesn't do any good in the long run is what I'm saying, Nobby, if you'd listen for five seconds together," said Fred Colon sharply.
"Yeah, but in the long run, what does, Sarge?”
I have no issue with starting chronologically, the books get bigger and better as you go. It doesn’t really matter though, there’s so much to love in each arc.
My personal favorite is THUD! Vimes hits his peak for me in that one.
I just feel rest the first three books are not the ones to grab you into the world. They are fine once there, but i feel he is showing his knowledge of fantasy rather than writing his best fantasy.
@@michaelchampion5668 I disagree, but even granting that, why would you start reading the series without being pot committed to reading them all?
@@michaelchampion5668 started with chronologically (just finished Guards Guards) and I was hooked right when Two Flower met Rincewind in the first book.
please discuss each book! They all have so much to say, and I'm really excited to hear your thoughts on them!
“Have the wheels of torment been duly spun?”
“Have the demons of infinity been bound with many chains?”
HIGHLY interested in a deep discussion on each book! Honestly I just LOVE listening to you talk in depth about books, so I’m all for it. :-)
The way I gasped when you said this was your first Terry Pratchett book. You're in for quite a ride! So excited for you.
Terry Pratchett honestly does out do himself with every guards book. Until the last couple every book is better than the last. Night watch is probably the best, but Ive never got as many baffled looks as I did while trying trying to stop uncontrollable giggles from listening to the audio version of Thud on the bus.
WHERE? IS? MY? COW?????
IS THIS MY COW?@@erraticonteuse
Given what you've liked most about this I'd strongly recommend "The Truth" after "The Fith Elephant" it's more of a side story to the City Watch but with all you've said about social media it's a must read.
I agree on this one. Also, The Truth does have impact on later stories
@@tylerdurham6091 It definately needs to be read before the Lipvig saga
"...with all the openness, sincerity, and innocence of purpose of an iceberg drifting into a major shipping lane." The way Discworld gets you.
My favourite line from this book, possibly my favourite Pratchett line, is when they're discussing the virgin sacrifice and one of the city councilors exclaims: "We can't do that! We're on loam!".
It goes to your point of understanding humanity, but it's also a great illustration of a specific personality type. This guy is thinking ahead to the practical problem of chaining a virgin to a rock in an area that doesn't have large rocks. The morality is for other people to decide.
My first Discworld book was one I saw at the library, 3/4 into an 'arc', and I largely read them out of order as they were available. The best Discworld book is, basically, whichever one you can get your filthy hands on next.
As you noticed in the first book of the 'arc', Prachett tends to pack a lot on characters and themes in everyone of his books and the cast of recurring/important characters keeps expanding and evolving (in Men-at-arms you'll meet at least 5 'new' characters and see evolution/exploration/change in most of the existing ones), so you should talk about them one book at a time.
Cheers!
I'm so glad STP is getting popular again. I've been reading Discworld on repeat for over 20 years now and they are still ever so relevant. The new audiobooks are great and have a good cast of actors doing the voices. All of the witches stuff and most of the Death stuff is great. I'm looking forward to your review of Witches Aboard and see how many connections to popular Grimm stories you make.
Yes! After Brandon Sanderson and One Piece (my top series), you’ve started reading Discworld! It’s amazing! Please discuss every book separately!
I’ve read the Night’s Watch, Death, and Witches sequences, as well as a few others (both Pyramids and Small Gods are excellent), and I’m about to start the Unseen University sequence. Excited for you to catch up!
I reckon you now see why many people felt that Brandon managed to channel his inner Pratchett for Tress, the style bears a lot of similarities.
Question though. As a reader of Pterry since the first book was published it’s a huge thing how his writing style changed over time, grew in colour, context, ability, depth and skill. Did you find that reading the books in their arcs, but then going back to the beginning of a new arc where his style is so different from his later years, is noticeable? I would think it would be but as a reader of the books when they were published year after year I can see it, but wonder if it’s visible if you read them out of order.
@@ValeriePallaoro Yeah, I do think it’s noticeable, but it has its charm. I think most first books in their sequences are not as strong as the later books, mostly because some aspects of the world seem less fleshed out than they get in later books. Sometimes that includes characterization, which can be a bit jarring. For that reason, I think I would have liked reading the books in publication order better than in sequence, but I don’t feel like any books were “ruined” for me.
I like the books the best that have great character moments and/or great themes (the climax to Sam going Where’s My Cow, or Nightwatch, most of Granny Weatherwax, Small Gods, Hogfather). I’ve finished the Rincewind/Wizards books and am now on The Truth. Looking forward to Going Postal!
The fact that the dragon was summoned using the power of sheer spite and resentment from a bunch of entitled but deluded nobodies is something I've thought about a lot ever since January 6th.
Damn, you simply mentioned that Sir Terry is dead and I teared up immediately. When I learned about his death was the only time I cried for a prominent person's death :(
I started reading Terry Pratchett when I was a little kid, with the Witches arc, and even though a lot of the humour went over my head at the time I still loved it so much. I fell in love with this world, these characters and their stories. If your favourite aspect of reading a book is connecting with its characters Terry Pratchett has you covered. There's a lot of dialogue in his books, and it's always so cleverly written and so entertaining. The characters are so vivid, each one is so unique and hilarious in their own way. They play off of each other beautifully, Pratchett creates such amazing character dynamics. If I'm having a bad day I know that I can open any Discworld series book and all my worries will be swept away.
As for a good place to start, I'd say almost any book of any arc will be good enough of a beginning, as even if you haven't read the previous ones the basics will still be briefly explained, who's who and all that. But if you want to be a little more organized about it then the Watch arc is my personal recommendation (and many others' too, as I can see). If you're even a little bit interested I implore you to try reading a Terry Pratchett book, and if you do end up loving it (which is kind of inevitable, really), there will be dozens more books like that waiting for you.
Edit: please exuse me if my English sounds off, I am still learning, with Sir Terry's help, in great part.
Death is awesome, hilarious and heart-wrenching! I love Mort!
You picked a great Discworld book to start with, Merphy! I've read only four of them so far, and while The Color of Magic and The Light Fantastic were fun, I found Guards! Guards! and Equal Rites absolutely brilliant. I hope to work in many more Discworld books this year, with Mort being up next. Rather than read through one of the arcs, I'm going to bounce around a bit because they are fun to read as standalones too. I will certainly tune in to hear your thoughts on the Discworld books!
Yes! I'm looking forwad to listening to your discworld reviews
I loved hearing your thoughts on Guards! Guards! What an excellent insight about the Patrician villain device and current-day social media algorithms! Pratchett was brilliant at writing great characters, relevant themes, and absurdist humor. Excellent video! ❤
It's so cool watching someone else get into Discworld, and The Watch is my favorite arc in the series. Just heads up that by the time he got to Snuff, Sir Terry was dealing with early onset alzheimers. So some of his later books don't have quite the same feel. I believe he was getting assistance in writing them. I still thoroughly enjoyed them but definitely noticed the difference.
MY FAVOURITE SAGA FROM MY FAVOURITE WRITER
love the world, the characters and the themes
"everyone except Carrot was laid low" Carrot of course being the 6ft plus tall dwarf. Yeah you know Terry did that on purpose.
Definitely a great series, and Guards Guards is the absolute best starting point. Witches arc is also great. Pratchett is amazing. There’s a reason he’s Sanderson’s favorite author
The City Watch books are fabulous! Omg, love Pratchett. I actually started with The Colour of Magic, which lots of people don't especially rate, but even when Pratchett wasn't writing at his peak, he was still excellent. So imaginative, so perceptive, so funny. Enjoy your journey
The first four books are a dismantling of the reigning fantasy tropes of the time. On that level they're amazing. And he only really gave Discworld a unique identity from book five.
He died way too early, GNU PTerry, GNU.
@@nielsjensen4185 I don't know. I felt it had a unique identity pretty much from page 1
@@MrLGDUK What are you responding to? Vimes' Theory of Boots is from "Men-at-Arms." It comes after "Guards Guards!"
@@nielsjensen4185 I'm arguing that Pratchett gave the Discworld series a unique identity from the first page of The Colour of Magic, in my opinion. You said he only really gave it its unique identity from book five. It doesn't really matter either way, all just opinions, but perhaps that why I loved it from book one while others really got into it at a later point.
@@nielsjensen4185 P.S. Has your comment ended up on the wrong thread? I saw this happen somewhere else as well - a youtube glitch, perhaps?
I am reading Terry Pratchett for the first time right alongside you. I also loved Guards Guards! and can't wait to continue on with Men at Arms. Please keep sharing spoiler talks about these books :)
My favourite Sir Terry thing is that Sam Vimes’ “boots” rule is a now widely accepted economic theory on the added costs of being poor. That’s how much there is in these “silly kids’ books about wizards”.
I'm so reading along for the rest of Discworld
I got into the series with the Death books but I've always recommended Guards Guards as the best first book because it just has an amazing cast of characters ❤
Massive interest in more Discworld reviews, Merphy. I just read Guards! Guards! too -- loved it! Think I'll try Mort next
I started the death arc about a month ago, loved it.
I'm so glad I started with the first book, which is bloody excellent.....only bloody excellent. They then get better and better. Chronologically rules. You should have trusted your love of reading Guards Guards and gone back to the begining.
basically been reading all the 10-12 (?) guard/city books on repeat for forever. they are SO good ❤
It is an absolutely fantastic book by an unbelievably talented author
And it's so much fun to see characters you know from other Discworld stories pop up in the one you're reading.
As a long time Pratchett fan, What took you so long!!!
Guards Guards is a great starting point, Sam Vimes is my favorite character and his development over the arc is both satisfying and heartwarming,, review each book or you may be swamped.
Please discuss every book! Even just picking quotes and discussing them would be wonderful.
MERPHY, you starting Discworld makes me sooo happy! Please keep posting reviews as you read more, I will be so excited to watch every single one!
Please discuss every book! We will be here to listen.
Oh… I so envy you beginning the Discworld books. I have loved Pratchett for over 20 years. Knowing you are just starting to read him makes me so very happy!
And you chose the absolutely perfect book to begin with
Congratulations. You have hours and hours of pure enjoyment before you. How very fortunate you are.😊❤ Life is good!
And the footnotes! Before Pratchett I never knew how much I loved, and looked forward to footnote!! Of all things… Footnotes bring me joy.
And granny! Wait until you get to Esme!!! ❤❤❤
One of the things I always loved about these books is that the early prints used to say that Terry Pratchett's novels get stolen from bookstores more often than any other book. Which was clearly meant as a sort of advertisement, and I always loved that little joke.
Anyway, I've been reading the whole Discworld series pretty much on repeat for the last 25 years. I can summarize every single one of those books off the top of my head just by reading the title.
Guards! Guards! is still my favorite overall. It's just fantastic how Mr. Pratchett managed to simultaneously write a comedy, a riff on fantasy tropes and still tell a gripping crime story. Plus, what you said about his wordplay, in a very literal sense, is true and so much fun. There are so many layers in these books that I can enjoy reading them again and again without ever getting bored.
Extremely late comment, but I would love in depth discussion on each book! I think that the further along you get, there is more and more to talk about in each book too. And this book is a great place to start reading Pratchett! It's not the only great place to start, but it's one of the best options, that's for sure.
Personally, I think it would be a good idea to read some of the arcs/series/connected books alongside each other, since there are things in each series that affect the others. Like, maybe read Men at Arms and Feet of Clay, and then the first three Witches books, and then the first three Death books, and so on. The world and characters evolve so much, so going to far chronologically to then go back to what may have been written twenty years earlier can feel a little off.
Loved your enthusiasm for this book. It matches my own but don't have other readers in my life to discuss and appreciate with!
Your way of excitment is something so personal to me. I don’t think I’m used to seeing this level of…just…happiness and love for a thing comming from other people. I am usually the one going ‘Oh my gosh this is perfect please look at this, read this quote, this is amazing-‘ and I get weird looks and apathy and I feel so dejected, but this review. It gave me such joy to see someone else gush about Pratchett. Thank you
Same, she turned me into a reader after putting off for so long, "dang that looks like fun, let me get some." What my teachers attempted in decades she did in one of video, I could only vouch a handful were this enthusiastic, which really is an invisible super power for a teacher to have.
My very first Terry Pratchett book was Snuff. I picked it up randomly at an airport, and I had the BEST time ever with it. I've only really read I think the Tiffany Aching series in order. It's never really mattered to me.
This was my intro into disc world. My favourite so far. Have done guards guards, Mort and currently on small gods. Decided I would do one from each series before deciding what one to focus on
So glad you started with this one! It was my first as well, I recommend people start with it
While Guards! Guards! is my 2nd favorite book, after Going Postal, Color of Magic/The Light Fantastic (same story, counts as one book IMO) is in the top 5. Absolutely worth reading and where I start every time I re-read the series (currently on my 6th round). If you want more Prachett, try Good Omens and the Long Earth Series.
This was my first book too. I fell in love with it and the audio book is very nice too.
I'm so glad you began your Discworld journey!!! Warning you'll want to start rereading the series even before you're finished with reading all of it. Personally I read the books chronologically and it was still a great choice. Like you I was confronted with too many opinions on where to start and in the end decided that I'd do my own thing (and my brain couldn't conceive of starting in "the middle"). I don't regret it! It's really nice to see Pratchett improving and the first books aren't as messy as everyone makes them seem.
Vimes and Vetinari are two of my favorite Discworld characters along with Granny and Death so I think City Watch is an amazing place to start too! I hope you like the series as much as you're hoping to!
I have just started into Terry Pratchett l, and this was my first also! I've since made it through the first 4 Watch books and first 2 Witches books. Where has this been all my life.
i love that you've STP and that you're so enthused by his writing, reading Pratchett genuinely made me a better person for many of the reasons you've made
Love, love, love The Watch series & the Witches. Nanny Ogg & Granny Weatherwax are my favorites above all, 1 & 2 above Vimes, Lady Sybil, Nobby Nobbs, Gaspode, Angua, & Carrot.
I’m glad One Piece led you to Hitchhiker which led you to Discworld. I love it.
I've only recently started reading Discworld but Terry Pratchett is becoming one of my favorite authors. They're so crazy but I find myself thinking about them all the time.
About the question at the end, while there is continuity and things develop, all books are self contained stories so it makes the most sense to review them individually. Also that means more discworld reviews.^^
I started Discwolrd reading the first two books of each the City Watch series, the Witches series and the Death series plus Small Gods. What a treat!
I think it was Moving Pictures that I read and got nearly to the end before I realized they were talking about the Oscar’s.
I like watching your videos Merphy, you are so quirky, adorable and smart. I love reading and fantasy is my favorite genre. Keep up the good work!
All the discussion! You're absolutely right that every book can sustain multiple discussions on philosophy, character, humanity, the craft of writing, ad infinitum.
Love it! Loved that you loved it! All the love!
I would be very interested to see your in-depth discussions of every single Terry Pratchett book. Go for it!
I would recommend switching things up instead of plowing through each series. One night watch, one wizards, one witches, one death, or however you wish to jump around
Would love more Discworld reviews! One of my favourite series - definitely up for a book by book discussion!
Yes ! Book by book discussions please! I love these books, and hope you enjoy the rest too!
I will reread what your reading so I feel more in tune with every discussion.
You talk Discworld and I'll watch. Pratchett is and always will be my all-time favourite author
I starded my journey about 25 years ago. I am still so happy to see the young once tackle this so smartly
Brilliant series. Good to see new people reading them. Love the review.
I love the "million to one chances go well nine times out of ten" scene so much! And the conclusion of the bit when the dragon torches the roof they're on and blows up the distillery underneath, but luckily the odds of surviving the explosion were exactly a million to one.
(Spoilers)
I love since I read once that the reason Colon failed in shooting the dragon in the vulnerables wasn't because he failed the one in a million chance, but because it was always a 0 in a million chance, since how can you shot a FEMALE dragon on the vulnerables?
Love watching someone discover STP definitely a vote for going book by book.
I look forward to you trying to pick a favourite at the end. Haha
You're not wrong about the Watch starting in a bad situation for all it's members. In addition especially Vimes - as many of Terry's characters - starts out 100% a cliche: The disillusioned, alcoholic old cop. If you watched enough crime/action movies you almost certainly have met him already at least once.
But of course, like always, Terry then takes the trope and forms it into something special. In Vimes case he pretty much becomes one of the greatest heroes in literature, as far as I am concerned. Not invincible and without failures, actually full of them, but aware of them too and always watching himself. A DEEP sense of justice - both moral and social - that are such a central part of the character that it's easy to think this might have been Terry's personal opinions on these issues... (according to people who knew him closer indeed Vimes and Granny Weatherwax are the two characters in the whole series who have the most of Terry himself in him).
There's so many layers between outright sillyness, biting satire and "deep thoughts" in these books, which makes it so easy to read them more than once. You're almost guaranteed to discover some new element that you missed the first time. :)
Oh Merphy, thank you for this review. Your passion for this book brought tears to my eyes, because i can relate so much. I have been reading especially the watch arc so many times. Because I felt and still feel as crazy about it as you. Please review every book separately. And concerning the question which arc to read next: both witches and death are brilliant in their own right, so you can do no wrong. I personally prefer the death arc.
Pleased to see you enjoying getting into Terry Pratchett! I am still working through the Discworld myself, but my favourite so far is Monstrous Regiment which has feminist themes. Second favourite Going Postal.
Guards Guards is a great place to start. Once you know you like the world, the chronological method isn’t bad, you go the journey of how his style changes. I read them in no order at all and still enjoyed myself.
Glad you picked up Discworld, definitely my favorite book series of all time. Enjoy!
I didn't get half of the things you said, but I love watching your rants about books xD
I’m super excited or more discussions about these books, just hearing about someone else falling in love tight Pratchetts work makes my day
Commander Vimes is a stubborn patrol officer who was forced into a promotion but prefers waking in the gutter after crawling out of a bottle, and Cut-Me-Own-Throat Dibbler is very memorable, just don't ask what is in the meat pies.
I am interested in hearing how your reading by character storylines goes. You'll learn things, and then 8 books later learn where they came from. That sounds like it could be enjoyable to experience. I'm eager to watch!
Even Pratchett himself is quoted as saying not to start chronologically. Also I always wonder if Oda has ever read Discworld, if not I reckon he would love it and take inspiration from it. But one of the things that Pratchett always said about writing fantasy is; take a cliché and twist it, but if you are going to twist it make sure you work out all the details around it "You can make pigs fly, but think about the dichotomy of the bird population and in over-flown areas have people with umbrellas designed for any falling pigs." I swear Oda often does that in his writing as well.
I love Pratchett books and absolutely need more videos about them.
Yeah I'm totally up for as much discussion as possible as I've read the entire discworld series
14:48 Merphy going off! :)
So so good. I think the arc just gets better as it goes on.
The best in this is "Someone out there was about to find out that their worst nightmare is a maddened librarian. With a badge" .... I don't know why but I laughed so much at that 😂
In depth discworld reviews! I am so HERE for this!
Ooh, please do discussions for each of them! If not, I’ll be here for a discussion after the arc. But you’ll see a lot of characters crop up in other ‘arcs’ as well, even if only making a cameo. Vimes, Death, and the Patrician are notable examples. You’ll see the characters develop and more added to the cast in Men at Arms and Feet of Clay, and I love every single one of them.
I'm also a new reader, and went Guards guards, small gods and Men at arms, and looked at going postal movie. A few things went over my head, and decided to go back and do it chronologically. And man o man I'm happy I did. From there you should go Equal Rites, then Mort and get updates on Ysabel, and so on.
They are all good, but it is always getting better. So as a new reader it just make sense not to go back and forth for Arcs, but just by release order.
I normally now recommend 1 book on a them that a new reader likes, to try and hook them on the Pratchett Opium. Like if someone is collecting stamps, I would make that person read Going postal.
Then go back to Mort and tell them that if they want "origin" story for the librarian, Granny Weatherwax, the Luggage, etc. Go back to the 1st 3 book. Kind of we would do with Tolkien Legends book.
Equal Rite is short, and also a good start. You get to see Rincewind and the Granny and Death all roll into one.
I see so many people on YT confused by DW reading orders. Just read it from the beginning if you want to have the best time ever and fall in love with the discworld and terry its really worth it. ps the colour of magic and the light fantastic are not essays, they are brilliant books.
One quick thought, you talked about Lord Vetinari as a villain at one point. I don't think that's the point of the character. I'd look at him more as a foil to Vimes. He's not a good person, but he's a bad person on our side, if you will.