It was, from AD&D 1st edition forward. It was in the Wilderness Survival Guide and the Dungeoneer’s Survival Guide. It was in the PHB for AD&D 2nd. In D&D 3e it became more simplified. By D&D 4e, it was gone completely. This is having to re-invent the wheel because WotC didn’t think that wheel was important. A Ranger or Druid in the party used to be almost a requirement because of this. I can remember having to track how many days worth of rations we had and how much feed we had for the horses in addition to the number of arrows we were carrying. Overland travel was a lot of the Ranger riding ahead to pick out the camping spot that had decent grazing and forage so that we could keep moving. I guess it wasn’t as heroic to the designers at WotC to include finding a spot to build a fortified encampment in orc territory. We used to do that routinely playing 2nd. Some of those fortified camps would develop into villages and towns after we abandoned them and moved on, meaning we didn’t have to travel back as far to resupply for the next campaigning season. It gave the game world a more “conquering the frontier” feeling as farming villages would spring up in our wake.
I think this is an EXCELLENT idea. I like it when we add mechanics to the game that decide how things go, rather than just having the DM decide. When I DM, I tend to be too nice, and let my PCs get away with things they shouldn't get away with. Mechanics like this puts a stop to that, and makes sure the players actually have to TRY, without knowing that they will succeed "because the DM always has our back".
I keep getting recommended small dnd channels, and they keep being as good as the big ones! This was a really interesting video, and I will definitely use these mechanics in my campaigns.
Awesome system. Love the fact that it can still be trivialized by being prepared and immersed, which is all we want from our players in the first place!!
As a DM, you should prepare set pieces using nature and inclement weather as a backdrop. Bandits by the roadside on a foggy day can make for an interesting encounter. So could a broken down wagon after a rain or mudslide. A tempting waterfall in the distance with rumors of treasure. There are all sorts of natural predators who could use the environment: hungry bears, big cats, wolf pack, poisonous snake stepped on, pissed off wolverine, etc. There's the matter of foraging for shelter, safe drinking water, food, while dealing with all sorts of annoyances that test their endurance: extreme hot or cold weather, weird weather such as hailstorms or tornados, pests such as mosquitos. Not just throwing random monsters, but make travel interesting.
This is the old school Player vs Environment (PvE) stuff that WotC thought was boring. I’m old enough to remember playing a Ranger in AD&D 2nd and having one horse for riding and one for carrying supplies for a moths-long incursion into orc territory. Picking the spot that had materials for building a fortified camp was every bit as important as locating the orc villages. Making sure there was grazing & foraging nearby along with water meant that we could survive long engagements with the orcs. One of the best encounters was when you found a farming village in one of your old encampments from previous years. That meant you didn’t have to travel as far to resupply, but it also meant you had farmers to protect from the orcs. You knew your character was a big deal when there were a dozen villages in his wake after fighting your way across orc territory. That was when kings started to hear of your exploits. That’s when an adventurer starts becoming a king.
When you set a camp, you should decide if it's a "permanent" camp or a "temporary" camp. Permanent camps could be set with hirelings and can be used as a fall-back safe location. This would have much lower dc for all of those checks, but it would split resources a bit. I feel that the longer the group is going to be in the area, the more prepared the hirelings would be to receive a group back from adventuring (first aid, food, water, built shelter). It might be good for the pc's to run a few patrols to clear out random encounters. A temporary camp is a travel camp. You pop up tents, maybe up against or under the wagon. You set a watch. You're there for the night and off you go. Base dc, with adjustments for bringing travel gear and gear to solve the elements of camp. Don't forget to include pets or mounts in all of this. Also, you are going to have diminishing returns as the group gains more magical means to deal with the camp problems, but as long as you still roleplay and don't handwave it, the players will use those items or spells. And really thats one less resource for them to use to defeat your big bad.
Great presentation. Your fix is technically a rediscovery/ reinvention of wilderness exploration mechanics from the dawn of the hobby, but good job sharing these ideas with the new generation. Excellent production on the video, too.
Interesting, ill look this up. in a hobby this old yeah there's going to be some book somewhere with some great ideas in it. In fact we could probably do a series looking for and resurfacing these lost ideas. Thanks for commenting!
I like this A LOT. Baldur's Gate 3 has a resting system that includes "supplies" you need to have a certain number of to effectively rest, and resting without them only gives you a partial full rest. I think failing a rest entirely is maybe too punishing (unless you're running a survival type game, which could be fun), so I might rule it as a half-rest if they fail more than two checks. I think XP to Level 3 has something where he offers the players an exchange, like they get a full rest or take a level of exhaustion. All in all though, this is a wonderfully simple way to offload some of the mental heavy lifting when figuring out camp for the DM and really should be in the DMG. Great work!
Thanks so much! It's been commented that the exhaustion is a bit harsh, and I tend to relax the rules of recovering from exhaustion a little bit in game to deal with this, but I do like the idea that after a long two week overland voyage, the players arrive in town literally exhausted :) Appreciate the kind words!
It's a great system you've devised there...simple, yet effective. I'm sure many DM's would be all for this. For me, it's not ideal. I'm a "planner"; I pre-plan 95% of everything my players do or encounter. I prefer to use camping simply as a quick means to prepare the players for the next encounter. That's not to say that nothing ever happens to them at camp however; it's just that those events are always pre-planned as well. Cheers!
First time viewer, and now a new subscriber! This is a such a streamlined mechanic with just the right realism, thanks! I play Savage Worlds, but I'll adapt this. No sleep for lazy PCs.
Simple and very effective! I’m running a campaign in Eberron right now and the party will be heading into the Mournland. In some spots, magic will act like Wild Magic 100% of the time. They will have to rely on food & water they bring rather than creating it magically. Same holds true for shelter. Your system will help me a lot!
I start my PC as a Wood Elf (Perception skill) Druid with Criminal/Spy (Deception & Stealth skills) background as well as Arcana and Survival skills. So I get guidance and druidcraft as cantrips and prepare the Rituals Guiding Hand, Speak with Animals and Wild Cunning from that point onward. Druidcraft gives me a weather report for the next 24 hours. Guiding Hand gets me from A to B. Speak with Animals alerts me to any nearby threats or locations. Wild Cunning has several effects. I can find fresh food and water, track a creature and make or break camp. As Rituals, I can cast these over and over. So we set up a fake camp as a Deception and set up the real one nearby. The Survival skill fills in any cracks.
This is a great gritty/realism rule for less casual players for sure. But I know some of my players would HATE this because they’d feel like it’s just more pointless die rolling
It’s definitely more die rolls, there’s consequences but you’d have to get buy in on it. One thing we did consider adding was bonus temp hps when they do particularly well. I the end we opted to keep it simple
Definitely gonna steal....ah, I mean "borrow" this concept for my players. Seriously though, I love the simplicity of the 4 checks. I already run a simpler yet grittier game so this will fit nicely.
I almost negate camping in my campaigns when the players stick to the roads. Ancient Rome and a few other bronze age and early iron age civilizations had a habit of setting up mile markers on the roads they built. Every mile or so, or just every time the road forks, there's a statue, or shrine, or stone pillar with Hermes'/Mercury's face and penis sticking out of it. That last one isn't a joke. The base assumption of almost every D&D setting is that there was an advanced civilization that fell, and now the PCs are looting the dungeons and treasures left over by that dead civilization. Forgotten Realms gets its name from there being too many of these civilizations to count or name. So at least a few of those civilizations in all my campaigns were "road builders." If you stick to the roads, you will come across a tool shed sized shrine to the gods of travel and wanderlust, or a mile marker with glyphs pointing in the directions of cities, water sources, or regional hot spots. Hell, if you're traveling in high elf dominated regions, you might find clusters of Gazebos attended by dozens of unseen servants at regular intervals. Wood elves are more likely to dot the roads near their territories with KOA campgrounds. No reason to let outsiders despoil the forests when setting up picnic pavilions full of picnic tables and fire pits keeps the humans in their lane and out of the sacred grove. Dwarf roads are easier to spot because instead of shrines or mile markers, they dot their roads with forges and taverns. The number of small human villages that just popped up in the back yard of a Dwarven "road site" are beyond number. And before you say this is too much luxury, there's more than a few civs that doubled up on their mile markers. One on the road for outsiders, and one hidden nearby for those who know better. Guess which one is safer to sleep at. Of course, the roads don't go everywhere. Most dragons don't allow roads to exist within five miles of a good lair location. Dungeons populated by humanoids may have need of a road that passes near their base, but the hidden lairs of death cults and dark wizards have no need of easy access to mass transit. "Traditional" D&D camping is unavoidable.
Been working on making hacks/modifications any even a few attempts at my own ttrpgs for a while now, and this idea is just fantastic. A perfect jumping off point for a post apocalyptic game I'm working on now, whete I'm trying to make the game not about combat and what happens in between.
I had an idea for starting a fallout type post apocalyptic where you tell your players to design characters after themselves, then when you meet, role play right now, big explosion, door opens guy says come with me, you head to vault and freeze until you emerge. I love the style and want to run a game like that soon.
@progressiveDND there's a kiwi guy on youtube named Rycon, and he ran a zombit game like that with some friends. Not quite my thing, I play tabletop games in part to be someone I'm not, but it's certainly an interesting, different approach.
@@axelthegreat9 I guess I have this dream of selling that intro to it, the theatrics of pointing at the window saying a huge explosion just happened etc. but yes I get it, it’s about creating a character and living in them
Love this idea, and great video! When you get to the part where the players actually make the “associated skill checks” which skills do you suggest they be? Always survival/perception? Different ones for different categories? Different ones based on the player’s plan for acquiring the resources?
It’s more a framework for describing and testing their plan, so I let them choose themselves if they can back it up with even a little logic. But how it succeeds or fails paints a picture you as DM can use to make it feel real. Thanks for checking out! We super appreciate the support!
@@progressiveDND Great to hear!! I'm also going to mix some of the food prep side of things to bridge the gap and correlate between your system and full rests. Like, maybe if you have perishable good food for a time, you could keep the bonus for longer etc, and really good rolls or prep with your system would stave off how long it would take before incurring CON checks. -------- It is a full rest kinda overhaul system from the dungeon coach. It changes some things to regular rests, streamlines, provides some variants to choose from, and adds a new level of rest called Full Rest. You can still remove 1pt of exhaustion during a long rest with both 4 hour chunks being 'no activity', but you can recover all with a Full Rest. In addition, you of course heal everything else to full, AND get a special full rest bonus. For my table, we roll on a table I made, and you get the bonus for 24 hrs after the full rest. Stuff like temp hp, adv on saves, etc. The catch is that in order to Full Rest, you MUST spend at LEAST 24 hours (depending on exhaustion levels/context, it could need days or even a week etc) spent in an area of safety like an inn. Somewhere you eat well, rest, and recover. It's really fun and helps set a tone when setting off on adventure from a town or something
We try to only post any type of new take, or modification when it really resonates with us, something worth consideration, and not just for the sake of views. In this case, making camping more interesting was something we really got excited about. So glad you enjoyed it!
ahh, yes i could have maybe made some examples. I wanted to come up with an easy way to let the DM use judgement to set the DCs. I might follow onto this by making a quick javascript page that does the math for you and makes it easy to use paperless. Thanks for commenting!
Well a really messed up camp could result in a lack of long rest completely, which could be uncomfortable for spellcasters, but the mechanic is more to flavor up both easy camping and difficult in a way that can be represented.
@@progressiveDND And none of these come into play if you just have one Druid with first level spells and mold earth that covers all four basis without even trying.
@@punishedwhispers1218 not sure how that would cover all four metrics, but hey, we can’t win them all. If the players have ways around problems they should be rewarded, worse thing that happens is they get a long rest.
@@progressiveDND Yeah I got it, but I mean, if you dont add bonuses an excellent idea for animal hunting would be equally easy to execute by a Wizard and by a Ranger. So, I am interested in your view regarding class bonuses in these kind of checks. I personally believe the DCs should be e.g. 25 for a very difficult location and a Ranger or other with a Skill bonus of + 7 gets to succed on 18 - 19- 20, while the others only with the nat 20.
I think these are some great foundations for a hardcore survival system *and* for a less survival-focused campaign! Most importantly, I think this technique encourages your players to roleplay a little more and really gets them invested in the world. If I were to run something like this, I would count a failed long rest as a short rest, so they can still get some HP back but a lot of their resources will be locked away. Of course, this favors a lot of martial classes more than casters, but that can be something you work out with the players. Love the ideas!
Hey @progressiveDND i noticed that the link in the description for the written guide is broken. I know these are prety basic rules but is there a way to still get the written version? I want my Players to be able to read the rules i am using so they dont feel like im coming up with them on the spot and i want my players to be able to help me with the rules as well. (i.e. remembering me that those kind of rules exist when i have to deviate from my prepared stuff)
Sadly during some PC changes, i managed to lose the form, but what you see in the video is essentially what the form was. I did create a javascript version available on our website if you wanted to try that, its not terribly tested but should work pretty well. you can find it here: progressivednd.com/appCamping
What would you suggest for a long journey with lots of camp stops in basically the same environment? I expect players would basically do the same things each time - just go ahead and roll again?
That’s a great question, surely on long journeys the landscape would change some, but if it doesn’t they can just reroll. The players probably shouldn’t see the sheet, it’s your tool to determine the wild crap that happens at night on the rule. Not to mention the failures themselves can paint the picture. Fail on water and on security, maybe they got attacked getting water from the river. It probably shouldn’t be a literal tool as much as a way to set dcs and then come up with scenarios that may otherwise be hard to come up with on the spot, especially on a long trip
This mechanic seems pretty cool, I'd love to see my players actually prep before going camping in the wilds, the roleplay heavy side of it is delightful! I think I'd go for individual rather than grouped rolls, like 1 player does X activity... an if they want they can help each other and roll with adv. The exhaustion level might be a bit harsh, because exhaustion is so punitive in 5e imo. House DM also did a video on rest mechanics and camping in the wilderness vs sleeping on a soft bed in a cozy inn, his proposed solution was basically to remove long rests while resting out in the open... Definitely worth checking out, maybe your mechanic is compatible with his for ultimate success!
Interesting, yeah we worked on it as a team with a focus on ease of running it and flexibility in area as well as clamping down on dungeon mappers. Level one exhaustion isn’t too bad, it leans into this I just walked 100 miles and when I get to town I’m exhausted thing. I’ll check out his videos. It’s a good train of thought, we want to challenge our players and reward them for leaning into the realism with some worth while planning. Thanks for commenting!
I see this, and I love this, but the Outlander BG completely negates the need for the rolls for food and water. How do we handle this and other elements like it, e.g. goodberry, create water, etc?
ahhh, you don't really, let them succeed because they prepared to succeed in some way or another. obviously in the dungeon example, there's more at stake than just food and water, so you still have some tools in your toolbox to get them into some healthy trouble :D So glad you enjoyed it!
Sadly I managed to lose the pdf I had created when I transitioned to our website. However I did create a web app for doing this camping method and you can find it on our website here: progressivednd.com/homebrew
It seems interesting the first time. But also seems like it would get to feel like repetitive dice rolling. Are you going to do this every day of the quest? Currently my PCs are doing some ocean voyaging and I started rolling on weather table. Does it get cold at sea (exhaustion), are you blow off track (delays, get lost), are there random encounters? I mostly stopped doing this. It just feels like it distracts from the story, adding random barriers between the players and their quest. These things add complications but that doesn't always translate into fun. When groups struggle to get together to play for a few hours a wekk and a single combat can take an hour or more to run, you need to be careful about how much random stuff you throw at the players.
Someone else brought up too much rolling as well. You are correct, it could become burdensome. Balance I suppose. We always want it to feel genuine and real, but absolutely there are limits and a fine but well defined line between realistic and fun, and realistic and tedious.
Ah come on, the game can be slow enough at times as it is. Even the travel from baldur's gate to Neverwinter is over 500 mile journey about 20 Days travel, do you want 20 gaming sessions of camping.... I think not. There'll be plenty of possibilities for travelling encounter's by towns, villages, cities and countryside, PLENTY of places to have encounters. We don't need having to deal with camping frustrations. I can understand the importance of it in a situation like your in the middle of a dungeon when you're halfway through a dungeon and the group needs a long rest. But for basic travel ....naa. This is the reason for having the Tiny Hut spell.
Yes I know in your description you're referring to a journey from Pandalin to Neverwinter basically a 3 day journey and the DM is not prepared for the Neverwinter description so they are looking for ways to delay the the party so they decided to introduce some new rules to camping to make it more difficult and more time consuming as a delay tactic. Yes a skill check camping situation might be interesting at first but after a while it would become tedious and left behind. I can remember running games where you had to keep track of every item you had, what it's weight was, how much you are carrying so that you wouldn't encumbered, then when camping, not sleeping in armour or else you wouldn't get any benefit of that sleep.... Do you remember how long it took to learn spells. I left that behind because it was tedious and time consuming. You sound like you're the kind of DM who would required the players to keep track of all ammunition and water and food that each PC has and for them to mark it off as the days and usage go by. That's not for me, although in the beginning as a DM I lived by the RAW, it took me a while to realise that's I didn't have to! That kind of Math homework was boring and not fun in a game. I remember playing in a game where the DM had us write down everything we were carrying to the nearest ounce to show that we weren't over encumbered and that we kept track of every dry ration we had. I remember there'd be sessions... SESSIONS! where we would be calculating what treasure we could bring back with us to trade and what we have to leave behind.😣🤯 Sorry there. I went on a rant.
Hey hey! thanks for dropping some comments. No, I don't tend to track the boring stuff. This campaign system is intended to help gauge and flavor camping. The way they can succeed and fail can help a DM (myself included) to create a unique outcome for a camp. Now I totally get if you are going to do a crazy long journey this could be insanely repetitive , so I for sure would hand wave some camps, and use it other places depending on the situation I want to create. Still players should be rewarded if they set out on a quest well prepared, but for me at my tables, that preparation doesn't have to have a numerical value unless my goal is realism in the moment. Appreciate you weighing in, I do love to see interest and debate sparked.
Long rest THAT mechanic was one of the first things I deleted from my game. There is healing and potions still but resting only gives 1HP back. 1 person on watch will get the party killed 50% of the time, a bandit or goblin takes out 1 guy (not even killing just restraining) and the party's stuff is GONE. Also character will not recover HP if they're sleeping in armor as that is not comfortable, they can also still be 1 shot even in armor because they are sleeping (dagger to the eye). So if a group is to survive they need to set up alarm devices, have a dog with them, keep 1 person on watch or more (that person tells me what they're doing), maybe even have a tree with a rope in it incase they need to get away! The whole survival experience just so goblins don't take all their stuff.
you play a hardcore game don't you? That sounds like a blast, but your players must show up with their A game. So the only way to heal in your game is to sleep many days, or use potions? You employ medicine differently or anything?
@@progressiveDND Well a healer's kit (relief kit) can be used to heal up 1 more HP a day, sleeping in a comfy room at the inn (more gold spent) will give back 1 more health. Faith healing is tricky because a cleric basically rolls and if the dice (their deity) says no to healing the person they don't get healed OR the cleric can force the healing with a downside of losing their healing ability (temporary), getting a curse, or something bad. As for potions you can chug several but again potion sickness/addiction. At least being at 0 health is NOT instant death.
I respect the right to your opinions amd the effort you put in this video. BUT F**K NO! NO SYSTEM LIKE THIS OR OTHER SYSTEMS THAT MAKE THINGS MORE DIFFICULT/COMPLEX/REALISTIC!!! In fact 1 of my "House Rules" is no TPK or Individual Player Character Deaths except in extreme circumstances,(for example jumping off a 30+ foot Cliff without being a Slow-Fall Monk or Feather-Fall Wizard). Another rule is that "Knock-Outs" still can happen. In which case the person loses 50% of the potential Experience from that encounter, are knocked-out for 1 minute then they come back up at full HP with a new Permanent Scar & doubled AC fir the remainder of the combat. If they consistently keep getting knocked-out and are 50% Permanently Scarred they permanently lose 3 points of Charisma though gain an immunity to scarring again but can still suffer the lose of Experience if they still keep getting knocked-out.
Sure, I can understand why some might not be into it. Our goal when we designed this was to bring camping into the game in a more roleplay way without causing a lot of complexity. This little mechanic was designed to give the DM tools to adjust the camping experience to any environment using a little form they can bust out real quick. Believe me, I am not for over complicating D&D, especially at the detriment of cadence within a scene. Do you run that Knock out thing? That sounds pretty complex to be honest. What would you say is your game "style"? Thanks for weighing in, stick around!
@@progressiveDND Yes the Knock-Out system is somewhat complex sounding but I have every experience point possibility be a round number that is easy to divide. The play style is more "Player Focused Videogame-esque" where basically I want the party to have fun. If say a player wants to create an epic hero moment by doing something fairly unrealistic to win, then I will adapt to it as long as it can be justifiable/logically described by them.
I get you, that does sound fun! I touch on that a little bit in an upcoming quickie video on cover, or rather it's underuse. I tend to focus on creating those dramatic hero moments mentally. I'm with you, i want my players to be rock stars but also want to check their crazy ideas when needed.
@@progressiveDND Right, so say someone is playing a Gnome Fighter and wants to climb up a Troll's back then stab it right in the back of the neck. That would be very illogical and hard to justify. But if they played a Human or Elf Fighter to try that then could be considered simply because a Gnome is far shorter then other Races so therefore have shorter jump height to try things like that. But at the same time if instead that Gnome tried to hobble the Troll by severing the Achille's Tendon then as the Troll fell they could walk on it's back to then stab in the neck.
Congrats to jes********39 for rolling a nat 20 on perception and scoring the free dice! Thanks for watching!
hah, little tip, once you figure out the right point, slomo that bad boy. also... nobody found the one yet in my Digital D&D VTT video :)
I’m surprised that this isn’t already part of the game. Really fantastic idea
Thanks so much! Stick around!
I'm not surprised. They've wanted you to make it up yourself more and more this edition while uping the price.
It was, from AD&D 1st edition forward. It was in the Wilderness Survival Guide and the Dungeoneer’s Survival Guide. It was in the PHB for AD&D 2nd. In D&D 3e it became more simplified. By D&D 4e, it was gone completely.
This is having to re-invent the wheel because WotC didn’t think that wheel was important.
A Ranger or Druid in the party used to be almost a requirement because of this. I can remember having to track how many days worth of rations we had and how much feed we had for the horses in addition to the number of arrows we were carrying. Overland travel was a lot of the Ranger riding ahead to pick out the camping spot that had decent grazing and forage so that we could keep moving.
I guess it wasn’t as heroic to the designers at WotC to include finding a spot to build a fortified encampment in orc territory. We used to do that routinely playing 2nd. Some of those fortified camps would develop into villages and towns after we abandoned them and moved on, meaning we didn’t have to travel back as far to resupply for the next campaigning season. It gave the game world a more “conquering the frontier” feeling as farming villages would spring up in our wake.
I think this is an EXCELLENT idea. I like it when we add mechanics to the game that decide how things go, rather than just having the DM decide. When I DM, I tend to be too nice, and let my PCs get away with things they shouldn't get away with. Mechanics like this puts a stop to that, and makes sure the players actually have to TRY, without knowing that they will succeed "because the DM always has our back".
Thank you so much!
I keep getting recommended small dnd channels, and they keep being as good as the big ones!
This was a really interesting video, and I will definitely use these mechanics in my campaigns.
that honestly means the world to us. Stick around, we are still figuring out how to do it, but having a blast trying!
Awesome system. Love the fact that it can still be trivialized by being prepared and immersed, which is all we want from our players in the first place!!
As a DM, you should prepare set pieces using nature and inclement weather as a backdrop. Bandits by the roadside on a foggy day can make for an interesting encounter. So could a broken down wagon after a rain or mudslide. A tempting waterfall in the distance with rumors of treasure. There are all sorts of natural predators who could use the environment: hungry bears, big cats, wolf pack, poisonous snake stepped on, pissed off wolverine, etc. There's the matter of foraging for shelter, safe drinking water, food, while dealing with all sorts of annoyances that test their endurance: extreme hot or cold weather, weird weather such as hailstorms or tornados, pests such as mosquitos. Not just throwing random monsters, but make travel interesting.
absolutely. The goal is to make it feel real, and video game fast travel leaves some cool experiences on the table. Nice suggestions!
Not to mention this gives way more use to Rangers, certain background features, and the survival skill ...
This is the old school Player vs Environment (PvE) stuff that WotC thought was boring.
I’m old enough to remember playing a Ranger in AD&D 2nd and having one horse for riding and one for carrying supplies for a moths-long incursion into orc territory. Picking the spot that had materials for building a fortified camp was every bit as important as locating the orc villages. Making sure there was grazing & foraging nearby along with water meant that we could survive long engagements with the orcs.
One of the best encounters was when you found a farming village in one of your old encampments from previous years. That meant you didn’t have to travel as far to resupply, but it also meant you had farmers to protect from the orcs. You knew your character was a big deal when there were a dozen villages in his wake after fighting your way across orc territory. That was when kings started to hear of your exploits. That’s when an adventurer starts becoming a king.
Each such small change makes the game more than just a combat simulator.
When you set a camp, you should decide if it's a "permanent" camp or a "temporary" camp. Permanent camps could be set with hirelings and can be used as a fall-back safe location. This would have much lower dc for all of those checks, but it would split resources a bit. I feel that the longer the group is going to be in the area, the more prepared the hirelings would be to receive a group back from adventuring (first aid, food, water, built shelter). It might be good for the pc's to run a few patrols to clear out random encounters.
A temporary camp is a travel camp. You pop up tents, maybe up against or under the wagon. You set a watch. You're there for the night and off you go. Base dc, with adjustments for bringing travel gear and gear to solve the elements of camp.
Don't forget to include pets or mounts in all of this.
Also, you are going to have diminishing returns as the group gains more magical means to deal with the camp problems, but as long as you still roleplay and don't handwave it, the players will use those items or spells. And really thats one less resource for them to use to defeat your big bad.
Great presentation. Your fix is technically a rediscovery/ reinvention of wilderness exploration mechanics from the dawn of the hobby, but good job sharing these ideas with the new generation. Excellent production on the video, too.
Interesting, ill look this up. in a hobby this old yeah there's going to be some book somewhere with some great ideas in it. In fact we could probably do a series looking for and resurfacing these lost ideas. Thanks for commenting!
I like this A LOT. Baldur's Gate 3 has a resting system that includes "supplies" you need to have a certain number of to effectively rest, and resting without them only gives you a partial full rest. I think failing a rest entirely is maybe too punishing (unless you're running a survival type game, which could be fun), so I might rule it as a half-rest if they fail more than two checks. I think XP to Level 3 has something where he offers the players an exchange, like they get a full rest or take a level of exhaustion.
All in all though, this is a wonderfully simple way to offload some of the mental heavy lifting when figuring out camp for the DM and really should be in the DMG. Great work!
Thanks so much! It's been commented that the exhaustion is a bit harsh, and I tend to relax the rules of recovering from exhaustion a little bit in game to deal with this, but I do like the idea that after a long two week overland voyage, the players arrive in town literally exhausted :) Appreciate the kind words!
As a DM myself, this a very unique approach. I appreciate it and may try to implement my own version of this for future campaigns.
Absolutely, drop a comment when you do! Stick around, we are going into some world building stuff soon.
It's a great system you've devised there...simple, yet effective. I'm sure many DM's would be all for this. For me, it's not ideal. I'm a "planner"; I pre-plan 95% of everything my players do or encounter. I prefer to use camping simply as a quick means to prepare the players for the next encounter. That's not to say that nothing ever happens to them at camp however; it's just that those events are always pre-planned as well. Cheers!
100% get that!
I’d say this is a solid camping mechanic. Going to discuss this with the other gm in my group.
First time viewer, and now a new subscriber! This is a such a streamlined mechanic with just the right realism, thanks! I play Savage Worlds, but I'll adapt this. No sleep for lazy PCs.
Very very appreciated!
Simple and very effective! I’m running a campaign in Eberron right now and the party will be heading into the Mournland. In some spots, magic will act like Wild Magic 100% of the time. They will have to rely on food & water they bring rather than creating it magically. Same holds true for shelter. Your system will help me a lot!
That’s awesome, thanks so much for checking it out, and stick around if you want. We are still growing but are the little channel that could
I subscribed to your channel and look forward to watching more of your videos
This is an AWESOME opportunity that is too often missed! Great advice and progressive thinking! Love it!
Thanks my dude!
I start my PC as a Wood Elf (Perception skill) Druid with Criminal/Spy (Deception & Stealth skills) background as well as Arcana and Survival skills. So I get guidance and druidcraft as cantrips and prepare the Rituals Guiding Hand, Speak with Animals and Wild Cunning from that point onward. Druidcraft gives me a weather report for the next 24 hours. Guiding Hand gets me from A to B. Speak with Animals alerts me to any nearby threats or locations. Wild Cunning has several effects. I can find fresh food and water, track a creature and make or break camp. As Rituals, I can cast these over and over. So we set up a fake camp as a Deception and set up the real one nearby. The Survival skill fills in any cracks.
See that’s fun! Absolutely no reason that kind of thought and planning should t be rewarded!
Man, this is great! I needed this in my life! Thanks!
This is a great gritty/realism rule for less casual players for sure. But I know some of my players would HATE this because they’d feel like it’s just more pointless die rolling
It’s definitely more die rolls, there’s consequences but you’d have to get buy in on it. One thing we did consider adding was bonus temp hps when they do particularly well. I the end we opted to keep it simple
Will absolutely be using this now in the future! cheers to the idea
Awesome, let us know how it goes and toss a sub if it works out for you!
Great stuff!
Been considering how to better handle long rests on the road, and this helps me out a ton.
Thanks!
awesome, thanks for watching!
Definitely gonna steal....ah, I mean "borrow" this concept for my players.
Seriously though, I love the simplicity of the 4 checks. I already run a simpler yet grittier game so this will fit nicely.
I'll trade you for a sub :) Appreciate the kind words, We tested it with one group and it was well received.
@@progressiveDND You got yourself a deal, my good sir! 👍🏻
Very cool! Going to try this.
Also, delicious in dungeon has camping in a dungeon - and eating monsters
Awesome, you owe us a sub if it makes a better game! Appreciate you checking it out
so insanely cool, love this idea and gonna send this video to our forever dm
just subscribed and am gonna binge the rest of your videos
Thanks my dude! Sharing is caring. We are a work in progress so if anything, appreciate our improvement :D
Excellent idea, nicely done! I've always loved the idea of the player camp in game, but its seemed very flat. I like this a lot!
Thanks for checking it out! Stick around!
I almost negate camping in my campaigns when the players stick to the roads.
Ancient Rome and a few other bronze age and early iron age civilizations had a habit of setting up mile markers on the roads they built. Every mile or so, or just every time the road forks, there's a statue, or shrine, or stone pillar with Hermes'/Mercury's face and penis sticking out of it. That last one isn't a joke.
The base assumption of almost every D&D setting is that there was an advanced civilization that fell, and now the PCs are looting the dungeons and treasures left over by that dead civilization. Forgotten Realms gets its name from there being too many of these civilizations to count or name.
So at least a few of those civilizations in all my campaigns were "road builders." If you stick to the roads, you will come across a tool shed sized shrine to the gods of travel and wanderlust, or a mile marker with glyphs pointing in the directions of cities, water sources, or regional hot spots.
Hell, if you're traveling in high elf dominated regions, you might find clusters of Gazebos attended by dozens of unseen servants at regular intervals.
Wood elves are more likely to dot the roads near their territories with KOA campgrounds. No reason to let outsiders despoil the forests when setting up picnic pavilions full of picnic tables and fire pits keeps the humans in their lane and out of the sacred grove.
Dwarf roads are easier to spot because instead of shrines or mile markers, they dot their roads with forges and taverns. The number of small human villages that just popped up in the back yard of a Dwarven "road site" are beyond number.
And before you say this is too much luxury, there's more than a few civs that doubled up on their mile markers. One on the road for outsiders, and one hidden nearby for those who know better. Guess which one is safer to sleep at.
Of course, the roads don't go everywhere. Most dragons don't allow roads to exist within five miles of a good lair location. Dungeons populated by humanoids may have need of a road that passes near their base, but the hidden lairs of death cults and dark wizards have no need of easy access to mass transit. "Traditional" D&D camping is unavoidable.
Been working on making hacks/modifications any even a few attempts at my own ttrpgs for a while now, and this idea is just fantastic.
A perfect jumping off point for a post apocalyptic game I'm working on now, whete I'm trying to make the game not about combat and what happens in between.
I had an idea for starting a fallout type post apocalyptic where you tell your players to design characters after themselves, then when you meet, role play right now, big explosion, door opens guy says come with me, you head to vault and freeze until you emerge. I love the style and want to run a game like that soon.
@progressiveDND there's a kiwi guy on youtube named Rycon, and he ran a zombit game like that with some friends. Not quite my thing, I play tabletop games in part to be someone I'm not, but it's certainly an interesting, different approach.
@@axelthegreat9 I guess I have this dream of selling that intro to it, the theatrics of pointing at the window saying a huge explosion just happened etc. but yes I get it, it’s about creating a character and living in them
Love this idea, and great video! When you get to the part where the players actually make the “associated skill checks” which skills do you suggest they be? Always survival/perception? Different ones for different categories? Different ones based on the player’s plan for acquiring the resources?
It’s more a framework for describing and testing their plan, so I let them choose themselves if they can back it up with even a little logic. But how it succeeds or fails paints a picture you as DM can use to make it feel real. Thanks for checking out! We super appreciate the support!
I absolutely love this! Definitely using this alongside the Dungeon Coach's Full Rest system
I’m so glad! We tried it out too with some strong feedback from players.
Also, tell me more about this system
@@progressiveDND Great to hear!! I'm also going to mix some of the food prep side of things to bridge the gap and correlate between your system and full rests. Like, maybe if you have perishable good food for a time, you could keep the bonus for longer etc, and really good rolls or prep with your system would stave off how long it would take before incurring CON checks.
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It is a full rest kinda overhaul system from the dungeon coach. It changes some things to regular rests, streamlines, provides some variants to choose from, and adds a new level of rest called Full Rest.
You can still remove 1pt of exhaustion during a long rest with both 4 hour chunks being 'no activity', but you can recover all with a Full Rest. In addition, you of course heal everything else to full, AND get a special full rest bonus. For my table, we roll on a table I made, and you get the bonus for 24 hrs after the full rest. Stuff like temp hp, adv on saves, etc.
The catch is that in order to Full Rest, you MUST spend at LEAST 24 hours (depending on exhaustion levels/context, it could need days or even a week etc) spent in an area of safety like an inn. Somewhere you eat well, rest, and recover.
It's really fun and helps set a tone when setting off on adventure from a town or something
i'm stealing this! this is amazing!!
My friend you can have it for free :D
I am starting to build a world and this mechanic is pretty cool ty good video
Thanks for checking it out!
This exact concept is used in the Pathfinder PC game(s)
very cool, those dudes have some stuff figured out it!
If you do more stuff like this i will definitely sub. Very interesting modification to the game.
We try to only post any type of new take, or modification when it really resonates with us, something worth consideration, and not just for the sake of views. In this case, making camping more interesting was something we really got excited about. So glad you enjoyed it!
i will give it a try. really good idea
Please do! Let us know how it goes!
Pre-generated DC's would help a lot of people I think. xD
ahh, yes i could have maybe made some examples. I wanted to come up with an easy way to let the DM use judgement to set the DCs. I might follow onto this by making a quick javascript page that does the math for you and makes it easy to use paperless. Thanks for commenting!
@@progressiveDND Epic! :D
Interesting video !🔥
thanks so much!
Spellcasters render this entire ordeal obsolete
Well a really messed up camp could result in a lack of long rest completely, which could be uncomfortable for spellcasters, but the mechanic is more to flavor up both easy camping and difficult in a way that can be represented.
@@progressiveDND And none of these come into play if you just have one Druid with first level spells and mold earth that covers all four basis without even trying.
@@punishedwhispers1218 not sure how that would cover all four metrics, but hey, we can’t win them all. If the players have ways around problems they should be rewarded, worse thing that happens is they get a long rest.
Very interesting! Do you handle it as a Survival check adding bonuses, or use the Dice Number plain?
I personally do the checked based on how they handle the problem, allowing them to create solutions
@@progressiveDND Yeah I got it, but I mean, if you dont add bonuses an excellent idea for animal hunting would be equally easy to execute by a Wizard and by a Ranger. So, I am interested in your view regarding class bonuses in these kind of checks. I personally believe the DCs should be e.g. 25 for a very difficult location and a Ranger or other with a Skill bonus of + 7 gets to succed on 18 - 19- 20, while the others only with the nat 20.
Oh you should add bonus for sure, I just meant that the way they solve the individual problems could span different abilities.
I think these are some great foundations for a hardcore survival system *and* for a less survival-focused campaign! Most importantly, I think this technique encourages your players to roleplay a little more and really gets them invested in the world.
If I were to run something like this, I would count a failed long rest as a short rest, so they can still get some HP back but a lot of their resources will be locked away.
Of course, this favors a lot of martial classes more than casters, but that can be something you work out with the players.
Love the ideas!
That’s a great idea about short rests, especially if they still have a lot of miles to walk
Hey @progressiveDND i noticed that the link in the description for the written guide is broken.
I know these are prety basic rules but is there a way to still get the written version?
I want my Players to be able to read the rules i am using so they dont feel like im coming up with them on the spot and i want my players to be able to help me with the rules as well.
(i.e. remembering me that those kind of rules exist when i have to deviate from my prepared stuff)
Sadly during some PC changes, i managed to lose the form, but what you see in the video is essentially what the form was. I did create a javascript version available on our website if you wanted to try that, its not terribly tested but should work pretty well. you can find it here:
progressivednd.com/appCamping
I like it!
Thank you!
What would you suggest for a long journey with lots of camp stops in basically the same environment? I expect players would basically do the same things each time - just go ahead and roll again?
That’s a great question, surely on long journeys the landscape would change some, but if it doesn’t they can just reroll. The players probably shouldn’t see the sheet, it’s your tool to determine the wild crap that happens at night on the rule. Not to mention the failures themselves can paint the picture. Fail on water and on security, maybe they got attacked getting water from the river. It probably shouldn’t be a literal tool as much as a way to set dcs and then come up with scenarios that may otherwise be hard to come up with on the spot, especially on a long trip
This mechanic seems pretty cool, I'd love to see my players actually prep before going camping in the wilds, the roleplay heavy side of it is delightful!
I think I'd go for individual rather than grouped rolls, like 1 player does X activity... an if they want they can help each other and roll with adv.
The exhaustion level might be a bit harsh, because exhaustion is so punitive in 5e imo.
House DM also did a video on rest mechanics and camping in the wilderness vs sleeping on a soft bed in a cozy inn, his proposed solution was basically to remove long rests while resting out in the open... Definitely worth checking out, maybe your mechanic is compatible with his for ultimate success!
Interesting, yeah we worked on it as a team with a focus on ease of running it and flexibility in area as well as clamping down on dungeon mappers. Level one exhaustion isn’t too bad, it leans into this I just walked 100 miles and when I get to town I’m exhausted thing. I’ll check out his videos. It’s a good train of thought, we want to challenge our players and reward them for leaning into the realism with some worth while planning. Thanks for commenting!
I see this, and I love this, but the Outlander BG completely negates the need for the rolls for food and water. How do we handle this and other elements like it, e.g. goodberry, create water, etc?
ahhh, you don't really, let them succeed because they prepared to succeed in some way or another. obviously in the dungeon example, there's more at stake than just food and water, so you still have some tools in your toolbox to get them into some healthy trouble :D So glad you enjoyed it!
Amazing Idea!
Thanks so much, if you use it, drop back by and let us know how it went.
Hey, the link does not work anymore
Sadly I managed to lose the pdf I had created when I transitioned to our website. However I did create a web app for doing this camping method and you can find it on our website here:
progressivednd.com/homebrew
It seems interesting the first time. But also seems like it would get to feel like repetitive dice rolling. Are you going to do this every day of the quest? Currently my PCs are doing some ocean voyaging and I started rolling on weather table. Does it get cold at sea (exhaustion), are you blow off track (delays, get lost), are there random encounters? I mostly stopped doing this. It just feels like it distracts from the story, adding random barriers between the players and their quest. These things add complications but that doesn't always translate into fun. When groups struggle to get together to play for a few hours a wekk and a single combat can take an hour or more to run, you need to be careful about how much random stuff you throw at the players.
Someone else brought up too much rolling as well. You are correct, it could become burdensome. Balance I suppose. We always want it to feel genuine and real, but absolutely there are limits and a fine but well defined line between realistic and fun, and realistic and tedious.
Ah come on, the game can be slow enough at times as it is. Even the travel from baldur's gate to Neverwinter is over 500 mile journey about 20 Days travel, do you want 20 gaming sessions of camping.... I think not.
There'll be plenty of possibilities for travelling encounter's by towns, villages, cities and countryside, PLENTY of places to have encounters. We don't need having to deal with camping frustrations.
I can understand the importance of it in a situation like your in the middle of a dungeon when you're halfway through a dungeon and the group needs a long rest.
But for basic travel ....naa.
This is the reason for having the Tiny Hut spell.
Yes I know in your description you're referring to a journey from Pandalin to Neverwinter basically a 3 day journey and the DM is not prepared for the Neverwinter description so they are looking for ways to delay the the party so they decided to introduce some new rules to camping to make it more difficult and more time consuming as a delay tactic.
Yes a skill check camping situation might be interesting at first but after a while it would become tedious and left behind.
I can remember running games where you had to keep track of every item you had, what it's weight was, how much you are carrying so that you wouldn't encumbered, then when camping, not sleeping in armour or else you wouldn't get any benefit of that sleep.... Do you remember how long it took to learn spells. I left that behind because it was tedious and time consuming.
You sound like you're the kind of DM who would required the players to keep track of all ammunition and water and food that each PC has and for them to mark it off as the days and usage go by.
That's not for me, although in the beginning as a DM I lived by the RAW, it took me a while to realise that's I didn't have to!
That kind of Math homework was boring and not fun in a game.
I remember playing in a game where the DM had us write down everything we were carrying to the nearest ounce to show that we weren't over encumbered and that we kept track of every dry ration we had.
I remember there'd be sessions... SESSIONS! where we would be calculating what treasure we could bring back with us to trade and what we have to leave behind.😣🤯
Sorry there. I went on a rant.
Hey hey! thanks for dropping some comments. No, I don't tend to track the boring stuff. This campaign system is intended to help gauge and flavor camping. The way they can succeed and fail can help a DM (myself included) to create a unique outcome for a camp. Now I totally get if you are going to do a crazy long journey this could be insanely repetitive , so I for sure would hand wave some camps, and use it other places depending on the situation I want to create.
Still players should be rewarded if they set out on a quest well prepared, but for me at my tables, that preparation doesn't have to have a numerical value unless my goal is realism in the moment.
Appreciate you weighing in, I do love to see interest and debate sparked.
Long rest THAT mechanic was one of the first things I deleted from my game. There is healing and potions still but resting only gives 1HP back.
1 person on watch will get the party killed 50% of the time, a bandit or goblin takes out 1 guy (not even killing just restraining) and the party's stuff is GONE.
Also character will not recover HP if they're sleeping in armor as that is not comfortable, they can also still be 1 shot even in armor because they are sleeping (dagger to the eye).
So if a group is to survive they need to set up alarm devices, have a dog with them, keep 1 person on watch or more (that person tells me what they're doing), maybe even have a tree with a rope in it incase they need to get away! The whole survival experience just so goblins don't take all their stuff.
you play a hardcore game don't you? That sounds like a blast, but your players must show up with their A game. So the only way to heal in your game is to sleep many days, or use potions? You employ medicine differently or anything?
@@progressiveDND Well a healer's kit (relief kit) can be used to heal up 1 more HP a day, sleeping in a comfy room at the inn (more gold spent) will give back 1 more health. Faith healing is tricky because a cleric basically rolls and if the dice (their deity) says no to healing the person they don't get healed OR the cleric can force the healing with a downside of losing their healing ability (temporary), getting a curse, or something bad. As for potions you can chug several but again potion sickness/addiction. At least being at 0 health is NOT instant death.
I respect the right to your opinions amd the effort you put in this video. BUT F**K NO! NO SYSTEM LIKE THIS OR OTHER SYSTEMS THAT MAKE THINGS MORE DIFFICULT/COMPLEX/REALISTIC!!!
In fact 1 of my "House Rules" is no TPK or Individual Player Character Deaths except in extreme circumstances,(for example jumping off a 30+ foot Cliff without being a Slow-Fall Monk or Feather-Fall Wizard).
Another rule is that "Knock-Outs" still can happen. In which case the person loses 50% of the potential Experience from that encounter, are knocked-out for 1 minute then they come back up at full HP with a new Permanent Scar & doubled AC fir the remainder of the combat. If they consistently keep getting knocked-out and are 50% Permanently Scarred they permanently lose 3 points of Charisma though gain an immunity to scarring again but can still suffer the lose of Experience if they still keep getting knocked-out.
Sure, I can understand why some might not be into it. Our goal when we designed this was to bring camping into the game in a more roleplay way without causing a lot of complexity. This little mechanic was designed to give the DM tools to adjust the camping experience to any environment using a little form they can bust out real quick. Believe me, I am not for over complicating D&D, especially at the detriment of cadence within a scene.
Do you run that Knock out thing? That sounds pretty complex to be honest. What would you say is your game "style"?
Thanks for weighing in, stick around!
@@progressiveDND Yes the Knock-Out system is somewhat complex sounding but I have every experience point possibility be a round number that is easy to divide.
The play style is more "Player Focused Videogame-esque" where basically I want the party to have fun. If say a player wants to create an epic hero moment by doing something fairly unrealistic to win, then I will adapt to it as long as it can be justifiable/logically described by them.
I get you, that does sound fun! I touch on that a little bit in an upcoming quickie video on cover, or rather it's underuse. I tend to focus on creating those dramatic hero moments mentally. I'm with you, i want my players to be rock stars but also want to check their crazy ideas when needed.
@@progressiveDND Right, so say someone is playing a Gnome Fighter and wants to climb up a Troll's back then stab it right in the back of the neck. That would be very illogical and hard to justify. But if they played a Human or Elf Fighter to try that then could be considered simply because a Gnome is far shorter then other Races so therefore have shorter jump height to try things like that. But at the same time if instead that Gnome tried to hobble the Troll by severing the Achille's Tendon then as the Troll fell they could walk on it's back to then stab in the neck.
True, rule of cool balanced with some sentiment of reality. unless your a yoda style gnome, then all bets are off :D