Imagine being Plato's voice actor and being hired by TED-Ed to a studio just to spend hours just saying "Ooooh" "Ooooooh" "Hmm" "Ohhh" into a microphone
Plato should know that the definition of ideal depends on the thinker’s perspective. The fact that he labels an ideal for all shows he might have been limited by dualistic thinking. He seems to grow from this but I could be wrong.
Diogenes was that guy's name. Was a philosopher and cynic. He was homeless and didn't even wear clothes. He publicly did everything, a first is only possession was a bowl but when he saw a child drinking with his hands to threw it out.
"Behold! Plato's Man!" Apply cold water directly to burn. That is really going out of your way to make a point, I can tell Diogenes woke up angry, justifiably so I'd say. "I am not a chicken damn it!" I can hear him saying it now...
Diogenes: history's first and greatest troll. One time, Alexander the Great came to visit Diogenes and found him relaxing in the sun. Alexander asked Diogenes if there was anything he wanted from him; Diogenes said he just wanted Alexander to move so he wasn't blocking the sun. Imagine that for a second: the most powerful man in the known world comes up to you and offers a favor and you reply, "Yeah, could you move a little to the right? I'm trying to work on my tan."
Jinx Mangrove I gotta tell you we don't come from birds. Birds and mammals came from reptiles but in separate ways, in fact, birds are the nearest descendant from dinosaurs.
@@matthew...6349 i second this. Do not start with kant. Better with like the stoics like epicctetus or marc aurel, plato or Aristotle. Or something contemporary that is more in oir language
@@luvvsammy sorry i only saw this comment now. I would very very much start with "what does this all mean? A very short introduction to philosophy" by thomas nagel. It is written for total beginners and is great to give a feel for different types of subjects and questions of philosophy. On top i think you can read it on like 3 hours and the pdf version is free somewhere if i remember correctly
I feel like the whole "featherless biped" thing could be interpreted symbolically. One of humanity's most distinctive features is our freedom of choice, that we can choose to become more (or less) than our base instincts dictate. Traditionally, freedom is associated with birds due to their ability of flight, and they were considered closer to the heavens where the gods resided. In that case, it's possible humans are featherless bipeds not in the literal sense, but in the idea that we can come close to the heavens, but not ever truly reach it.
Also every Greek god had their bird or bird form.Zeus with his eagle and swan transformation,Athena with her owl and overall wings were considered godly gifts.Also Plato setted unintentionally a evolution story in motion.Tbh he was at certain point right,there was a same ancestor to birds and mammals
Why the "world of perfect forms" was a bad idea? Not at all. Take a circle for example. An idea of circle as a perfect form is perfectly round. But when you try to draw a circle and look at it under a microscope, you begin to realize that it's far from perfection with broken lines, dots and crevices that ink or pencil creates on paper or stick in the sand. So we cannot create a perfect circle in this reality, only in our minds.
To be generous to Plato, we can interpret his "world of perfect forms" as a sort of objective mental model. In some ways, it seems to be very much like mathematics - it's a model that transcends biased cultural perceptions (eg., no matter what culture you come from, pi has the same value, Pythagoras' theorem holds true, and the square root of two can never be expressed as a fraction). Given that interpretation, you can make the claim that a perfect circle exists in that perfect world because a circle has a precise mathematical definition. But this sort of model breaks down when you try to describe concepts that can't really be objective. Plato suggests that there's such a thing as a "perfect tree", but that seems kind of silly to me. What species is this tree? How many branches does it have? What is the shape of its leaves? How tall is it? While you can use reason to describe the properties of a perfect circle (assuming dimensions aren't relevant), there's no conceivable way that you can use reason to describe a perfect tree. He also applies this to ethical concepts like justice. While we can certainly use reason to inform our views on justice, it doesn't seem like one can describe some form of objective justice using pure reason. Basically, what Plato is saying is that reason can tell us how the world ought to be in every little detail. Most modern philosophers would disagree.
Everything Phlebas said is 100% on point, but I'd like to add that it's not just the forms of THINGS. It's the form of every concept, such as the form of equality. He also believed that every person's soul came from the realm of forms and that the only reason we know what a tree is or what equality is is because we saw it in the realm of forms before we were born. Also, this carries the implication that the realm of forms is a physical place that concurrently exists, at which point most contemporary thinkers would jump ship.
+Phlebas Perfect tree has no species. Besides, what is a perfect shape? Isn't it subjective? For one it may be circle, for other elipse or something completely different. I don't think that perfectness of a tree lies in its looks.
D r . Manhattan It's not about the best shape amongst other shapes. It's the perfect idea of a shape. Say, perfect circle. It can only exist in your mind. You cannot reproduce a perfect circle with today's tools. Because the lines will not be perfect. Same for square, triangle, or any other shape.
Alex Povolotski Yeah but the guy said that "there's no conceivable way that you can use reason to describe a perfect tree." and i think that there is, and a perfect tree would be a tree with maximum *efficiency* in what tree does. That would determine number of branches, shape of leaves, and their positioning.
Picturing Diogenes throwing that plucked chicken down in front of everyone is just hilarious. Did he catch and pluck the chicken himself prior or did he ask a chef for a spare one? 🤣
Aristotle was so much better than Plato on the idea of individual liberty. Plato's Republic is a dictatorship. "If liberty and equality, as is thought by some are chiefly to be found in democracy, they will be best attained when all persons alike share in the government to the utmost." Aristotle
It is actually true, isn't it?Most of us are slaves to the system.Only a few think outside the system, while most of us merely need a reassurance that it's all OK.All religions exploit this sheep mentality.
Without knowing it came from Plato, I've had the same idea about forms' all my life. I always feel like there's a perfect way to do something, and if you put in too much effort to achieve perfection it can drive you mad. Perfection always seems possible, yet always remains unattainable in this world.
I interpret Plato's definition of humans as follows: The desire of any bird is to fly and go beyond. As any human might desire to go farther, achieve the skies, and think more deeply, but still finds limitations to such burning in its inner heart we can be compared to a bird without feathers to fly.
This is like the most cliff notes high school overview of Plato's work ever... There is nothing overtly wrong but it's like saying Lord of the Rings is about two little people who go on a long walk... It's not wrong but it's so reductive it might as well be
@@glideo The biggest issues are when it begins to talk about Plato's Republic. It misses what the point of the Republic was and then takes certain aspects of it literally. The Noble Lie, the three classes of citizens, souls of gold, silver or bronze, etc. are all aspects of "The City in Speech" in the Republic, but Plato was not trying to craft a utopia, they were trying To understand what justice is in the individual using a hypothetical city to represent different parts of the individual soul. To state that Plato believed in the Noble Lie or in the Philosopher King is a huuuge leap (and I'd argue is even the opposite of his point). So to say "these were Plato's bad ideas" means they didn't understand the point of the work at all because Plato was not arguing in favor of those ideas. They are conceptual tools to prove an entirely different point. Further, it's difficult to say anything was "what Plato said" because he wrote only in dialogues which he purposefully never appeared, so that he could distance himself from some of his ideas following the execution of Socrates. I could go on and on with other points but if your interested check out Allan Bloom. He's written some brilliant analysis of Plato.
@@KB-gd3gg So what IS that entirely different point? That the Republic (of castes/classes, lies, and thoughtful rulers) should not be favored and is not closer to the Ideal Form of a society (in his rich boy view)? It seems that, much like Plato himself in your description, you are just muddying the water with further obscurities. What you seem to be trying to say is that the Republic is not about "what would be good" but about "what just is true if a government/society is a person." I disagree that the Republic is "just what is true." I very much doubt Plato even took a statistical survey of his local population, let alone tried to convey anything beyond "give me money, I might be supporting your ideas too who knows." I will check out Allan Bloom to get the abstract-psychoanalysis straight from the horses mouth (but hopefully not pay the horse just for seeking sly attention). ... Conclusion: The Republic is NOT satire. Norman's incorrect translation and self-serving analysis is a Noble Lie. I seem to agree more with Norman Gulley's take on Allan Bloom's take.
@@guywhochangeshisprofilealo7163 To be even more just, it's a 5 minute video about Plato's ACTUAL "The Republic" rather than Allan Bloom's rendition/translation of it based on whatever training in classical Arabic/Greek he thought he had. Allan Bloom might as well say that Plato was being satirical when "he said" man was a hairless biped animal and thus closer related to birds "In Ideal Form" (other bipeds, and by inferential extension "angels/gods" like Athena Nike).
I seem to recall Plato also thought all children should be seperated from their parents so that they would be more “malleable” for instruction, and that the parent just got in the way.
***** I prefer to think of it as a reminder that there's always room for improvement, that when you're presented with something upsetting you just need to remember that it doesn't have to be like that, and hold out hope for the better way that's out there somewhere.
It's definitely unfair to criticize Plato for ideas that we realized much later were horribly wrong. Just about everything his student Aristotle ever said was wrong too but he founded multiple fields of science. He literally wrote the book on Physics. It was called "Physiks". He also wrote the book on metaphysics, but that was untitled. It was the book he wrote before writing physiks. metaphysics literally means before physics. And yes, Plato did write a book suggesting that people like him should be dictators, but hey, the world's first large democracy, Athens, had just put his beloved teacher to death.
I think that was somewhat the point of the video, to demonstrate how much we gained from Plato, even if we eventually dropped most of his stuff. I was actually a bit disappointed at the "good" and "bad" scale. Lots of pretty questionable stuff in the "good" column. Far from seeing it unfair to criticize, I thought that they were unnecessarily defending bad ideas that were still important. Thought that was perhaps not the way to demonstrate how foundational Plato was.
Yes, I agree with you. I think I was unclear earlier. I think it is. unfair to criticize Plato and others for having ideas that are wrong. It doesn't diminish their brilliance. However, it is a common mistake to recognize the brilliance of people like Plato and therefore give weight to his ideas that they clearly do not deserve.
"wrong". I think that idea about philosophers as leaders isn't that bad, democracy is FAR from perfect. And if I'm not mistaken back then philosophers were pretty damn smart.
Yeah. Philosopher Kings is a seducing idea. But then it isn't realistic to expect a ruling class, even a "smart" ruling class to be any more unbiased, fair, or representative of its people. And it isn't even justified to believe that a ruling philosopher class will share the values of the people, or be stewards of their best interests. For that matter, what gives anyone the right to rule other people by force? Basically, philosopher kings sounds good to philosophers, and those who think like them. I prefer an educated electorate that has investment in the society, including property, and who can trust that their voices will be heard, and their rights and interests protected. They are free to listen to the philosopher class, or ignore them when they inevitably start talking out of their anus.
“Wandering womb” was, unfortunately, a diagnosis applied to women for far longer than it should have been. I’m guessing some practitioners secretly wish it could still be used. 💕🐝
How can the ruling part be a bad idea? The rulers should be the people most capable for it, the ones that spend time thinking and considering every option, the ones with empathy... Like he meant that a philosopher was capable of that, and there will always be people with no brain or with no interest of doing anything for the rest.
Well, the basic idea he and Socrates came up with is that philosopher kings were the most fit to rule. They also considered themselves to be philosopher kings. Coincidence? I think not. In an ideal world it is best to have the best rulers, but how do we go about deciding that? Plato and Socrates believed they themselves would be the best rulers, and most other people assume they themselves would be the best rulers. It's all subjective
The problem is that power corrupts. Philosopher Kings may try to resist that temptation, but they will all succumb. This is what we learn from the Ring of Gyges, which is also used in Tolkein's the Lord of the Rings...
3:52 It seems extremely misleading to insinuate that propaganda is only used by dictators. Propaganda in the 20th and 21st century has been used by industry, advertising and politicians of every political sign.
But it is most used by dictators as they have the most wealth to use them and have the most adverse effect meaning if you had to pick one it would be a dictator as that’s what most associates with propaganda so he tries to get his point across rather than be a human dictionary
To rectify some false information, Plato did not classify humans as birds. He instead just described them as featherless bipeds as at the time that was the best description of us there were no other known great apes at the time in Greece.
There's no proof behind it though, and it implies that there's *one* right way of doing things. Also the theory only works with man-made things, concepts or things that have been observed and named by humans, so it wouldn't work with any kind of smart civilization that doesn't use the same concepts as us.
@EriolTolkien And you sir, are doing the same. You deny the idea without providing any evidence. Plato at least had the excuse of being born in 428 BC.
@@szilveszterforgo8776 Well technically he didn't really write anything to read but yes I've read up on details on his life and on the philosophy of cynicism.
Iris Trismegistus Castes and class exist though. It’s not like the narrator is lying. I don’t see how knowing this necessarily creates any conflict either, beyond mere resentment.
I agree. It is completely true. For most of our modern history since the French revolution, various political ideas tried to deny the classification of people into various castes and classes, yet failed. Communism, that was supposed to be the pinnacle of equality and destruction of the system of classes, just ended up dividing the society into two classes instead of three and had created the possibility of moving to another class by selling your personal freedom and beliefs to the government (if you wanted to be anyone or anything in the Soviet Union, for example, you had to be the member of the Communist party. Then, the "party would take care of you". You'd be able to buy cars much faster and gain various other good that an ordinary citizen could not). In todays modern world, we still retain the class system despite democracy announcing everyone as equal. The truth is - we just are not. Have you not noticed that leadership is simply in peoples genes? That most leaders who seem to attract other people elicit a very specific appearance? That socially liked people are much more likely to be brown eyed? There is just so much more that we do not understand. But Pluto was right to an extent.
Socrates never wrote anything down, The Republic is set up as a discussion with socrates being used to espouse those ideas, but we don't know if that's what he really believed.
Everything that are "Plato's ideas" are just things from his dialogues, which use *several* of his contemporary philosophers. We don't know exactly what his ideas were.
There's some wrong and imprecise information here. Plato clearly stated that it's through dialectic that people discover truths not reason. Reason to him was in a lower status in the invisible intelligible world. It's all written in his divided line theory. And the official designation of "featherless bipeds" was created to try to come up with the safest critique-free definition of man to be used during a dialectical discourse. When Diogenes gave him his cynical response Plato replied by changing the designation to "featherless wingless bipeds". This channel didn't even bother to research well before uploading its content.
Actually, Plato's teacher introduced the concept of the noble lie as an alternative to democracy where he remarked that a ship cannot be handled by just anyone on deck who is popular by a vague factor, but a ship's captain should be experienced in the field, alike monarchy (The problem with this is quite obvious of course) But composition of metals and alloys is quite strange, metaphorical?
you know... i actually kind of agree with plato's world of perfect forms, not as in an actual dimension with a literall perfect form of everything, but as in a concept inside your brain, like if you were going to make a table, you would create a perfect version of a table inside your head but when you finish building it the table will always be imperfect, even if you spend years perfecting the table one leg will always be a little bit shorter than the rest, maybe the polish will always be a little thicker on the left side of the table, no matter how utterly insignificant it is it will still always be imperfect, the only place where the perfect form of the table exists is in your mind.
On top of everyone having bad ideas we have to remember we're going off of ancient writings that may have been misinterpreted or changed over the years
Socrates never published anything, but was spoken about a lot by philosophers at the time. As far as I am aware, it's unclear whether he was a great teacher of philosophy, or a character used in stories to explain ideas.
He was so angry that Plato called humans plucked birds, that he interrupted Plato's lesson by throwing a plucked chicken on the ground and made fun of him. I'm not even sure whether that is the epitome of pettiness, or the greatest and first murder by words.
Plato: only those who have mastered the craft (of medicine) should lead (the world of medicine) Also Plato: the womb is a live animal that wonders around the body and cause illness My man, you ought to stay in your lane of philosophy
This seems like a terrible interpretation of Plato’s Republic. Some ideas don’t translate into a 4 min video. Don’t cram them in. It makes everyone dumber while they believe they are wiser.
De la Rothfourcloud would probably disagree. Beside this will get people who are interested an easy step in the door so they can find points like the forms to continue their learning.
He was the starting point for these ideas; just because some are wrong doesn't mean they all are. Where would mankind be if we threw out everything we know just because something we thought we knew was wrong?
Plato almost recreated the conventional 'Hindu' caste system. Disclaimer: the original caste system was a humanistic system based on reason and logic , however is outdated now.
One reason why Plato managed to be remembered as the arbiter of philosophy was that he was a literal book burner. He believed in radical censorship so that art and philosophy that he considered dangerous was not remembered.
3:25 well what about endometriosis? the lining of the womb grows out side of the the womb and can travel all around the body, causing pain and inflammation, Plato wasn't far off
Fyi, you can edit your original comment by clicking on those three square dots to the right... in case you didn't know. I'm not telling you to be condescending. =)
No prob. About your initial comment, my curiosity would be on why Plato believed in the traveling womb theory. Sometimes a person's crazy ideas align with scientific discoveries but it's merely a correlation.
Ryan Swanson true, but Plato wasn't just random crazy person with a couple of good ideas, he must've had logic and reason to why he believed that. Granted, they did not understand anatomy due to the Greeks refusing to dissect the human body, so they wouldn't really have evidence of uterine lining, but I guess we'll never know.
I cannot stress how important it is to have definitively good and bad things in our life sometimes. Is this movie good or bad? it really does not matter. Is the idea that some people are just born better than others good or bad? It is a very bad and dangerous idea.
Calling them moronic is also subjective - your base expectation of knowledge is today's 'common sense' knowledge gained over the last millennia. Though I don't see why the womb thing couldn't have been disproven after a few autopsies.
Yason You Yet it is still entirely subjective, which is also very very important. This is an example that most people agree with, but if you take a less safe one, you'll see that the world is in no way black and white.
Actually that being born better idea, while moraly may seem wrong, is partialy true. It's all about genetics, if your parents are genius, you have bigger propability to be genius, if they are dumb, it's more possible you will be too. And statistically black people are physicly stronger than white ones.
Atleast he tried. Tried to give the deeds a face. He was the beginner so mistakes are obvious. why don’t we take good lessons and praise him for that. Nice video Wisecrack!! good job 👏🏽
Of course he had some bad ideas. After all, Plato was just an imperfect replication of the perfect philosopher.
HA! You are funny
*what?*
*applause*
**nods in agreeing**
@@oriijin5639 cus he believed that the world we are living in is a bad replication of the perfect world, which the gods live
"BEHOLD, PLATO'S MAN!"
awesome how centuries later that's still hilarious.
Behold moriartywalksfree's humor
Out of context it sounds like meme
ruclips.net/video/AgtOp2AoD_I/видео.html
If I were a philosophy professor, I'd have my students do that to a biology or paleontology class
That isn't even the worst of it he and Plato argued alot witch Plato lost after all Plato cater to the wealthy and Dio was just a chad
Imagine being Plato's voice actor and being hired by TED-Ed to a studio just to spend hours just saying "Ooooh" "Ooooooh" "Hmm" "Ohhh" into a microphone
I was looking for this comment
Easy money
m.ruclips.net/video/3xwltthx5gQ/видео.html
Honestly, it's more likely that they have a collection of "stock" vocal effects. Meaning the voice wasn't hired for Plato specifically.
OOooooh
Diogenes: "Behold Plato's man!" holds up plucked chicken.
Plato: "'Men', Diogenes. I see two of you..."
Plato, the comeback king...
Hahaha, he called it chicken 🐔
So... there was 3 Chickens 🐓 during this moment, 1 normal and 2 featherless
Wait for real?
Diogenes: then go back to sleep, you're drunk.
Literally started randomly reading it at the same time it was playing. Synchronicity
Plato should know that the definition of ideal depends on the thinker’s perspective. The fact that he labels an ideal for all shows he might have been limited by dualistic thinking. He seems to grow from this but I could be wrong.
"Plato deliberately made those outright bad ideas just so to prove his point that he is an imperfect replication of a perfect philosopher"
Makes way more sense now.....
Thanks! makes more sense now
This comment is an imperfect replication of a perfect comment...
Could also be something made by his followers to cover up for him
"Behold! Plato's man!" I was like "OOOOHHH!!!"
And his name is pronounced "play doh "
Badass
Diogenes was that guy's name. Was a philosopher and cynic. He was homeless and didn't even wear clothes. He publicly did everything, a first is only possession was a bowl but when he saw a child drinking with his hands to threw it out.
Destruction 100
Diogenes was based af
"Behold! Plato's Man!"
Apply cold water directly to burn. That is really going out of your way to make a point, I can tell Diogenes woke up angry, justifiably so I'd say.
"I am not a chicken damn it!"
I can hear him saying it now...
"Μα τον Άδη, όρνις ουκ ειμί!"
naaaa, that guy lived in a barrol
He actually said Socrates as a man
Well Diogenes thought we should all live like dogs - maybe he just thought Plato picked the wrong animal
@@curlytoes22 Honestly Diogenes might've meant 'well we are basically act like dogs so i guess that is the standard.'
Diogenes: history's first and greatest troll. One time, Alexander the Great came to visit Diogenes and found him relaxing in the sun. Alexander asked Diogenes if there was anything he wanted from him; Diogenes said he just wanted Alexander to move so he wasn't blocking the sun.
Imagine that for a second: the most powerful man in the known world comes up to you and offers a favor and you reply, "Yeah, could you move a little to the right? I'm trying to work on my tan."
Omg xD
I too saw that Sam O'Nella video
you thought I would respect you
BUT IT WAS ME DIOGENES
MrClickity I am familiar with that story
Mr. Squid that Jojo reference I-
*rubs my leg*
Person:What are you doing?
Me:I'm pregnant
Person:Oh congrats
Stew-A-Rew loL
😂😂
@Victor Aponte did u find out?
@Victor Aponte 3:13 if you’re still struggling
I cannot stop laughing
I feel the animation doesn’t pay justice to the fact that Plato was absolutely jacked. Absolutely rippled.
Plato is a nickname meaning "Broad" in Greek, might as well call him "Swole"
Ah Diogenes... The only person who could perfectly refute Plato so succinctly. _Deface the coinage!_
Jinx Mangrove I gotta tell you we don't come from birds. Birds and mammals came from reptiles but in separate ways, in fact, birds are the nearest descendant from dinosaurs.
Wow
Thanks, Sam O'nella 🤔
The Cynical Historian ...In filosophi everything is right and everything is wrong...
Deface the political currency rather than actual coins you mean!
After Diogenes' incident with the chicken, Plato then added the criteria "with broad, flat nails" to his definition of man
* bursts into your home with a pangolin in my hand *
*Behold, Plato's man*
Plato: [edit comment]
I SCREAMED THEY REALLY BREAK THAT POOR MAN'S HEART DIDN'T THEY
As a philosophy student, i always appreciate videos about philosophy, too many people nowadays don't know much about it anymore.
this is so late but i was wondering how i could get into philosophy. what books do you recommend?
@@luvvsammy With philosophy you can start anywhere. You can start with Plato, or Kant, it doesnt matter as long as you are having fun
Do not start with Kant
@@matthew...6349 i second this. Do not start with kant. Better with like the stoics like epicctetus or marc aurel, plato or Aristotle. Or something contemporary that is more in oir language
@@luvvsammy sorry i only saw this comment now. I would very very much start with "what does this all mean? A very short introduction to philosophy" by thomas nagel. It is written for total beginners and is great to give a feel for different types of subjects and questions of philosophy. On top i think you can read it on like 3 hours and the pdf version is free somewhere if i remember correctly
I feel like the whole "featherless biped" thing could be interpreted symbolically. One of humanity's most distinctive features is our freedom of choice, that we can choose to become more (or less) than our base instincts dictate. Traditionally, freedom is associated with birds due to their ability of flight, and they were considered closer to the heavens where the gods resided. In that case, it's possible humans are featherless bipeds not in the literal sense, but in the idea that we can come close to the heavens, but not ever truly reach it.
at least, we are Talkey-Monkeys now
i think he j didnt know ab kangaroos brah
Also every Greek god had their bird or bird form.Zeus with his eagle and swan transformation,Athena with her owl and overall wings were considered godly gifts.Also Plato setted unintentionally a evolution story in motion.Tbh he was at certain point right,there was a same ancestor to birds and mammals
I laugh so hard at the pluck chicken lol 😂 “behold! Plato’s man!” So funny
Theoretically there must be a perfect comment for every video.
But you will never find it on RUclips.
"First"
It's clear, succinct, informative and irrefutable.
Theoretically XD
Perfect for what ends?
Justin Y. discovered the perfect comment years ago. He has been withholding it from mankind to maintain his superiority over The Algorithm.
Wise crack is best crack
boo
League Amino Acid lol
haha! :P
League Amino Acid 😆
Butt crack is best crack
plato in spanish means plate
plata o plomo!
- Pablo Escobar Narcos 2015
Plato means broad in ancient Greek
playa in spanish means beach
Playa in American slang means a man who has several romantic and/or sexual relationships at the same time.
David Jolly no its plato. Plato translated to english from spanish is plate. I should know, im spanish myself.
I've still yet to find a better rivalry than Plato and Diogenes. Their battles are epic
Fun fact: Plato (Πλάτων) means Broad in Greek, refering to his broad shoulders and wide back, as he was a Beastly weightlifter as well.
He also used to flex in some of his philosophical debates for an argument.
I feel sorry for that chicken.
After Diogenes left his house, he ate the poor chicken with some fava
beans and a glass of wine
you don't need to. It's long gone, it feels no pain anymore
*man
@@dromeus21 I've just realized i ate my Tía Huesillo for lunch today.
@@blabla-rg7ky technically you don't need to do anything under any circumstances
*walks in with a featherless chicken*
"BEHOLD, A MAN!"
Nah that’s just Larry, he walks around and eats... not much else, the bare minimum of living.....
Yeah we didn’t hire him,
WHAT?!
Why the "world of perfect forms" was a bad idea? Not at all. Take a circle for example. An idea of circle as a perfect form is perfectly round. But when you try to draw a circle and look at it under a microscope, you begin to realize that it's far from perfection with broken lines, dots and crevices that ink or pencil creates on paper or stick in the sand. So we cannot create a perfect circle in this reality, only in our minds.
To be generous to Plato, we can interpret his "world of perfect forms" as a sort of objective mental model. In some ways, it seems to be very much like mathematics - it's a model that transcends biased cultural perceptions (eg., no matter what culture you come from, pi has the same value, Pythagoras' theorem holds true, and the square root of two can never be expressed as a fraction). Given that interpretation, you can make the claim that a perfect circle exists in that perfect world because a circle has a precise mathematical definition.
But this sort of model breaks down when you try to describe concepts that can't really be objective. Plato suggests that there's such a thing as a "perfect tree", but that seems kind of silly to me. What species is this tree? How many branches does it have? What is the shape of its leaves? How tall is it? While you can use reason to describe the properties of a perfect circle (assuming dimensions aren't relevant), there's no conceivable way that you can use reason to describe a perfect tree.
He also applies this to ethical concepts like justice. While we can certainly use reason to inform our views on justice, it doesn't seem like one can describe some form of objective justice using pure reason.
Basically, what Plato is saying is that reason can tell us how the world ought to be in every little detail. Most modern philosophers would disagree.
Everything Phlebas said is 100% on point, but I'd like to add that it's not just the forms of THINGS. It's the form of every concept, such as the form of equality. He also believed that every person's soul came from the realm of forms and that the only reason we know what a tree is or what equality is is because we saw it in the realm of forms before we were born.
Also, this carries the implication that the realm of forms is a physical place that concurrently exists, at which point most contemporary thinkers would jump ship.
+Phlebas
Perfect tree has no species. Besides, what is a perfect shape? Isn't it subjective? For one it may be circle, for other elipse or something completely different. I don't think that perfectness of a tree lies in its looks.
D r . Manhattan It's not about the best shape amongst other shapes. It's the perfect idea of a shape. Say, perfect circle. It can only exist in your mind. You cannot reproduce a perfect circle with today's tools. Because the lines will not be perfect. Same for square, triangle, or any other shape.
Alex Povolotski Yeah but the guy said that "there's no conceivable way that you can use reason to describe a perfect tree." and i think that there is, and a perfect tree would be a tree with maximum *efficiency* in what tree does. That would determine number of branches, shape of leaves, and their positioning.
Picturing Diogenes throwing that plucked chicken down in front of everyone is just hilarious. Did he catch and pluck the chicken himself prior or did he ask a chef for a spare one? 🤣
I loved the "glitch in the matrix" part.
What I find more impressive is how Aristotle manages to get mentioned in pretty much all of my classes save English.
You should do this kind of video for Aristotle 'Some people are just naturally slaves.' Slow Clap for Aristotle...
Aristotle was so much better than Plato on the idea of individual liberty.
Plato's Republic is a dictatorship.
"If liberty and equality, as is thought by some are chiefly to be found in
democracy, they will be best attained when all persons alike share in
the government to the utmost." Aristotle
(some people are just naturally slaves) was aristotle talking about the anunnaki that they created as for gold mining.
just a theory who knows
Jinx Mangrove ,that makes a lot of sense,but in order to make a good philosophy,you have to make a few mistakes, not all can be a good one, 🙍
It is actually true, isn't it?Most of us are slaves to the system.Only a few think outside the system, while most of us merely need a reassurance that it's all OK.All religions exploit this sheep mentality.
+Chucky peter
This is why you're not meant to take everything literally. Nice comment man.
Without knowing it came from Plato, I've had the same idea about forms' all my life. I always feel like there's a perfect way to do something, and if you put in too much effort to achieve perfection it can drive you mad.
Perfection always seems possible, yet always remains unattainable in this world.
I interpret Plato's definition of humans as follows: The desire of any bird is to fly and go beyond. As any human might desire to go farther, achieve the skies, and think more deeply, but still finds limitations to such burning in its inner heart we can be compared to a bird without feathers to fly.
This is like the most cliff notes high school overview of Plato's work ever... There is nothing overtly wrong but it's like saying Lord of the Rings is about two little people who go on a long walk... It's not wrong but it's so reductive it might as well be
Would you be willing to go into further detail?
@@glideo The biggest issues are when it begins to talk about Plato's Republic. It misses what the point of the Republic was and then takes certain aspects of it literally. The Noble Lie, the three classes of citizens, souls of gold, silver or bronze, etc. are all aspects of "The City in Speech" in the Republic, but Plato was not trying to craft a utopia, they were trying To understand what justice is in the individual using a hypothetical city to represent different parts of the individual soul. To state that Plato believed in the Noble Lie or in the Philosopher King is a huuuge leap (and I'd argue is even the opposite of his point). So to say "these were Plato's bad ideas" means they didn't understand the point of the work at all because Plato was not arguing in favor of those ideas. They are conceptual tools to prove an entirely different point. Further, it's difficult to say anything was "what Plato said" because he wrote only in dialogues which he purposefully never appeared, so that he could distance himself from some of his ideas following the execution of Socrates. I could go on and on with other points but if your interested check out Allan Bloom. He's written some brilliant analysis of Plato.
To be fair, it’s obvious that this video is not aimed for the 5 million iq big brain people.
@@KB-gd3gg So what IS that entirely different point? That the Republic (of castes/classes, lies, and thoughtful rulers) should not be favored and is not closer to the Ideal Form of a society (in his rich boy view)?
It seems that, much like Plato himself in your description, you are just muddying the water with further obscurities. What you seem to be trying to say is that the Republic is not about "what would be good" but about "what just is true if a government/society is a person." I disagree that the Republic is "just what is true." I very much doubt Plato even took a statistical survey of his local population, let alone tried to convey anything beyond "give me money, I might be supporting your ideas too who knows."
I will check out Allan Bloom to get the abstract-psychoanalysis straight from the horses mouth (but hopefully not pay the horse just for seeking sly attention).
... Conclusion: The Republic is NOT satire. Norman's incorrect translation and self-serving analysis is a Noble Lie. I seem to agree more with Norman Gulley's take on Allan Bloom's take.
@@guywhochangeshisprofilealo7163 To be even more just, it's a 5 minute video about Plato's ACTUAL "The Republic" rather than Allan Bloom's rendition/translation of it based on whatever training in classical Arabic/Greek he thought he had. Allan Bloom might as well say that Plato was being satirical when "he said" man was a hairless biped animal and thus closer related to birds "In Ideal Form" (other bipeds, and by inferential extension "angels/gods" like Athena Nike).
I seem to recall Plato also thought all children should be seperated from their parents so that they would be more “malleable” for instruction, and that the parent just got in the way.
It's the best way for some orwelleian indoctrination tho
Paul Stenberg Call it “Adoption”
Some communists thought so too.
Well no, this was only the rule set out for the Guardian class if I'm not mistaken.
So he's why Master Cheif exists
I find the thought of Platonic forms to be a very comforting idea.
Romano Coombs Platonic forms, not platonic friendships. Though I appreciate those too, I've had a few and they can be very rewarding.
***** I prefer to think of it as a reminder that there's always room for improvement, that when you're presented with something upsetting you just need to remember that it doesn't have to be like that, and hold out hope for the better way that's out there somewhere.
Isn't it sad, Socrates?
astalote czim weeb
Temp Temp Hey, it's you again! :D
Temp Temp normie
StBou 13 That'sthejoke.jpg
...didn't he get his head chopped off by a king for being too forward in his thoughts?
I'm disappointed no one in the comments pointed out that his beard in the thumbnail looks like teeth
Now I can't unsee it
How do i unsee it now
Where did I place my undo potion...
i'm disappointed you didn't point out that his hair in the thumbnail looks like a chameleon
I’m disappointed nobody in the comments has pointed out that he walked like an Egyptian.
Plato does make people think weather it's about good thoughts or bad thoughts, he makes everyone think even today. That's what I got from this lesson.
YES Wisecrack is the best.
Your profile picture looks familiar.
"Behold, Plato's man"
I died
It's definitely unfair to criticize Plato for ideas that we realized much later were horribly wrong. Just about everything his student Aristotle ever said was wrong too but he founded multiple fields of science. He literally wrote the book on Physics. It was called "Physiks". He also wrote the book on metaphysics, but that was untitled. It was the book he wrote before writing physiks. metaphysics literally means before physics.
And yes, Plato did write a book suggesting that people like him should be dictators, but hey, the world's first large democracy, Athens, had just put his beloved teacher to death.
after or beyond not before
I think that was somewhat the point of the video, to demonstrate how much we gained from Plato, even if we eventually dropped most of his stuff. I was actually a bit disappointed at the "good" and "bad" scale. Lots of pretty questionable stuff in the "good" column. Far from seeing it unfair to criticize, I thought that they were unnecessarily defending bad ideas that were still important. Thought that was perhaps not the way to demonstrate how foundational Plato was.
Yes, I agree with you. I think I was unclear earlier. I think it is. unfair to criticize Plato and others for having ideas that are wrong. It doesn't diminish their brilliance. However, it is a common mistake to recognize the brilliance of people like Plato and therefore give weight to his ideas that they clearly do not deserve.
"wrong". I think that idea about philosophers as leaders isn't that bad, democracy is FAR from perfect. And if I'm not mistaken back then philosophers were pretty damn smart.
Yeah. Philosopher Kings is a seducing idea. But then it isn't realistic to expect a ruling class, even a "smart" ruling class to be any more unbiased, fair, or representative of its people. And it isn't even justified to believe that a ruling philosopher class will share the values of the people, or be stewards of their best interests. For that matter, what gives anyone the right to rule other people by force? Basically, philosopher kings sounds good to philosophers, and those who think like them.
I prefer an educated electorate that has investment in the society, including property, and who can trust that their voices will be heard, and their rights and interests protected. They are free to listen to the philosopher class, or ignore them when they inevitably start talking out of their anus.
"Floating around the world of forms was the ideal youtube channel"
I think ted-ed is trying to tell us something.
Aristole: im the smartest man in greece,
Plato: *hold my ancient beer*
@FREEDOM OR DEATH tru
How do you even get an idea like "A womb is an animal and can move on its own?" That's just creepy!
The baby takes control
My guess is he thought that the baby kicking meant they travel all over the place in their mother’s body
That way you might actually become pregnant in your face and that's creepy
“Wandering womb” was, unfortunately, a diagnosis applied to women for far longer than it should have been. I’m guessing some practitioners secretly wish it could still be used. 💕🐝
@@amazinggrace5692 my guess is it has to do with a women's period and how it affects them. It's actually not that far of a stretch.
How can the ruling part be a bad idea? The rulers should be the people most capable for it, the ones that spend time thinking and considering every option, the ones with empathy... Like he meant that a philosopher was capable of that, and there will always be people with no brain or with no interest of doing anything for the rest.
I agree. What I think the speaker was doing though is using Plato's reasonable arguments to lead into his unreasonable ones.
Well, the basic idea he and Socrates came up with is that philosopher kings were the most fit to rule. They also considered themselves to be philosopher kings.
Coincidence? I think not.
In an ideal world it is best to have the best rulers, but how do we go about deciding that? Plato and Socrates believed they themselves would be the best rulers, and most other people assume they themselves would be the best rulers. It's all subjective
now I believed that what he meant was wrong was the idea that a king should rule. any type of king, philosopher or not should be prohibited.
The problem is that power corrupts. Philosopher Kings may try to resist that temptation, but they will all succumb. This is what we learn from the Ring of Gyges, which is also used in Tolkein's the Lord of the Rings...
I think GCP grey made a video on the nature of ruling recently. Watch that, it explains a lot of things.
3:52 It seems extremely misleading to insinuate that propaganda is only used by dictators. Propaganda in the 20th and 21st century has been used by industry, advertising and politicians of every political sign.
They never implied that though.
Kilgore Trout they still kinda use the same thing
@@bottomtext They explicitly state it.
But it is most used by dictators as they have the most wealth to use them and have the most adverse effect meaning if you had to pick one it would be a dictator as that’s what most associates with propaganda so he tries to get his point across rather than be a human dictionary
I think propaganda is, by definition, political. Otherwise it's marketing or advertisement. I'm not 100% sure on this, though.
To rectify some false information, Plato did not classify humans as birds. He instead just described them as featherless bipeds as at the time that was the best description of us there were no other known great apes at the time in Greece.
yeah, he later changed it to "featherless bipeds with broad nails, or something like that"
@Jury but the majority of them say, that we have at least a common ancestor.
"Doctor, what's wrong with me?"
"Your baby is in your left leg."
yo they forgot Kanye in that time line at da end, dawg
Come again! You make no sense.
Milton2k sure I do. look, 40 likes. nyah.
Heheheh, kk.
Jaden Smith also. Blasphemy, I say.
Kanye is a moron and so are his fans.
First black president called him a jackass.
He is a Trump supporter though, so he's not all bad.
I think the theory of forms is quite a good one
There's no proof behind it though, and it implies that there's *one* right way of doing things.
Also the theory only works with man-made things, concepts or things that have been observed and named by humans, so it wouldn't work with any kind of smart civilization that doesn't use the same concepts as us.
Isabella Bornberg I agree, it is highly useful.
+w It also implies that you don't have to observe something to prove it, just thinking about it is enough.. So, not that great.
Isabella Bornberg Yeah the theory is good
Eh, the senses are over rated for discovering truth.
I think the forms idea could be tweaked a little and make sense.
How do you know for sure?
It totally makes sense.
@EriolTolkien And you sir, are doing the same. You deny the idea without providing any evidence. Plato at least had the excuse of being born in 428 BC.
Yes, the electron is the most spherical object in the Universe the perfect form!
Is there an ideal form of the ideal forms theory?
2:12 This man is actually the greatest philosopher of all time.
Have you read any philosopher?
@@szilveszterforgo8776 Uh yes?
@@afromans170 Diogenes too?
@@szilveszterforgo8776 Well technically he didn't really write anything to read but yes I've read up on details on his life and on the philosophy of cynicism.
@@szilveszterforgo8776 it's philosophy not philosopher.A philosopher is the person who creates a philosophy.
This one didn't have a intro music, but my brain still made me feel like I heard it....
As I was watching this, I was thinking of playdough.
I like the narrators voice in these vids very enchanting 😳💯
About the society being divided into three large groups - producers, soldiers, and rulers -- that was just an observation of reality.
Good observation of... a video
The problem with that kind of thinking is that it encourages castes & classes. As well as class & caste conflict.
It a observation of Greece not reality that he tried to pass of as reality
Iris Trismegistus Castes and class exist though. It’s not like the narrator is lying. I don’t see how knowing this necessarily creates any conflict either, beyond mere resentment.
I agree. It is completely true. For most of our modern history since the French revolution, various political ideas tried to deny the classification of people into various castes and classes, yet failed. Communism, that was supposed to be the pinnacle of equality and destruction of the system of classes, just ended up dividing the society into two classes instead of three and had created the possibility of moving to another class by selling your personal freedom and beliefs to the government (if you wanted to be anyone or anything in the Soviet Union, for example, you had to be the member of the Communist party. Then, the "party would take care of you". You'd be able to buy cars much faster and gain various other good that an ordinary citizen could not). In todays modern world, we still retain the class system despite democracy announcing everyone as equal. The truth is - we just are not. Have you not noticed that leadership is simply in peoples genes? That most leaders who seem to attract other people elicit a very specific appearance? That socially liked people are much more likely to be brown eyed? There is just so much more that we do not understand. But Pluto was right to an extent.
Everyone's gangsta until Diogenes shows up with a plucked chicken.
I love the art so much. Its so funny and delivers the message perfectly
Wasn't it Socrates who came up with the idea of philosopher kings and the noble lie?
I thought Plato just recorded it.
That1Guy Plato plagiarized several ideas from Socrates, and sadly, we can't fully know which ones are original and which ones were stolen.
Socrates never wrote anything down, The Republic is set up as a discussion with socrates being used to espouse those ideas, but we don't know if that's what he really believed.
You make him sound like a douchebag! Socrates never wrote anything down and he teached plato. It´s only natural he passed his ideas onto him.
Everything that are "Plato's ideas" are just things from his dialogues, which use *several* of his contemporary philosophers. We don't know exactly what his ideas were.
Alexandre Silva: taught. teached is not a word
There's some wrong and imprecise information here. Plato clearly stated that it's through dialectic that people discover truths not reason. Reason to him was in a lower status in the invisible intelligible world. It's all written in his divided line theory. And the official designation of "featherless bipeds" was created to try to come up with the safest critique-free definition of man to be used during a dialectical discourse. When Diogenes gave him his cynical response Plato replied by changing the designation to "featherless wingless bipeds". This channel didn't even bother to research well before uploading its content.
From a certain point of view
Learned new things about one of my favorite philosophers! Even the wisest will have ideas that may seem flawed. Just a matter of contemplation!
Annarenef and those glasses doesnt make you and wiser or smarter, so contrary to your belief.
I yet still have to find an individual to talk about this type of things. Someone unique.
“Ideal RUclips channel” 😆 I didn’t expect to see this in TED-Ed
1:05
An ideal RUclips channel? Pretty sure it exists, and I’m watching a video made by them right now.
I'm a little sad that the guy who hosts all those episodes on wisecrack didn't narrate this.
Actually, Plato's teacher introduced the concept of the noble lie as an alternative to democracy where he remarked that a ship cannot be handled by just anyone on deck who is popular by a vague factor, but a ship's captain should be experienced in the field, alike monarchy (The problem with this is quite obvious of course)
But composition of metals and alloys is quite strange, metaphorical?
3:12 didn't expect a balloon boy in a TED video
The ideal RUclips channel?
We already know what that is- Ted Ed
I’m gonna be honest, a lot of this one went over my head
you know... i actually kind of agree with plato's world of perfect forms, not as in an actual dimension with a literall perfect form of everything, but as in a concept inside your brain, like if you were going to make a table, you would create a perfect version of a table inside your head but when you finish building it the table will always be imperfect, even if you spend years perfecting the table one leg will always be a little bit shorter than the rest, maybe the polish will always be a little thicker on the left side of the table, no matter how utterly insignificant it is it will still always be imperfect, the only place where the perfect form of the table exists is in your mind.
Finally, I am within the first 50 viewers. I feel like part of the 1%
this video was so amazing keep up the good work
Wisecrack made a Lesson for TED-Ed? awesome
Producers -> Legislative
Military -> Executive
Rulers -> Judicative
The basic idea of dividing forces is not so bad after all.
ayyyyyy g
I don’t think Plato said or thought that the womb travels or that we’re featherless birds. Pretty important topic to talk about without research.
Diogenes also once told Alexander the Great to get out of his way, because he was blocking his light. Truly a mad lad.
On top of everyone having bad ideas we have to remember we're going off of ancient writings that may have been misinterpreted or changed over the years
I like how TV is presented as an imperfect version on RUclips (the ideal)
why use the "s" (Σ) as an "e" (Ε) tho 😂
Idontknow WhoIam So we understand the titles.
So, if E were used, couldn't you understand them?
Arc Kocsog wtf 😂
E is Ε
I don't see how this would be difficult for u to read 😂
Idontknow WhoIam because it looks like the way Greeks were writing E
Black Dog they didn't write E as a Σ
How about Socrates?? Teacher of Plato
routse THIS !!!!
It is proven that Plato existed, but Socrates may or may not have been a myth. Its to unclear with him
Socrates never published anything, but was spoken about a lot by philosophers at the time. As far as I am aware, it's unclear whether he was a great teacher of philosophy, or a character used in stories to explain ideas.
wtf
Dear Lord, I have been studying for years Greek philosophy and I'm pretty sure, Socrates was very real. What are you talking about?
best and worst ideas for asian or other philosophers please, good series :)
Ted-ed seems close to the perfect RUclips channel to me
0:47
"Nice argument philosopher, why not back it up with a source?"
Plato: "My source is that I made it the F#CK UP!"
He was so angry that Plato called humans plucked birds, that he interrupted Plato's lesson by throwing a plucked chicken on the ground and made fun of him. I'm not even sure whether that is the epitome of pettiness, or the greatest and first murder by words.
When I heard Diogenes, I knew that something will go down
3:15 And that's how the word 'hysteria' came into being....
This is the ideal channel
Amazing graphics and content.
Plato: only those who have mastered the craft (of medicine) should lead (the world of medicine)
Also Plato: the womb is a live animal that wonders around the body and cause illness
My man, you ought to stay in your lane of philosophy
Plato: Instead of thinking about stuff, why not we think about thinking about stuff
This seems like a terrible interpretation of Plato’s Republic. Some ideas don’t translate into a 4 min video. Don’t cram them in. It makes everyone dumber while they believe they are wiser.
Atleast they get a place to start.
@@saraq64 Most people will treat this as a place to end.
Well said.
@@Phelan666 Then they don't belong in philosophy.
De la Rothfourcloud would probably disagree. Beside this will get people who are interested an easy step in the door so they can find points like the forms to continue their learning.
Behind every "genius" is a imperfect man filled with failure and bad ideas, what made him great was that some of his ideas was genius.
He was the starting point for these ideas; just because some are wrong doesn't mean they all are. Where would mankind be if we threw out everything we know just because something we thought we knew was wrong?
Plato almost recreated the conventional 'Hindu' caste system. Disclaimer: the original caste system was a humanistic system based on reason and logic , however is outdated now.
Why are both his eyes on the same side of his nose?
MarcellusTheGreen i know.. but this is sometimes ted ed's art style
Hahahaya
That's something you see often in 2-D Cartoons.
Peppa Plato
One reason why Plato managed to be remembered as the arbiter of philosophy was that he was a literal book burner. He believed in radical censorship so that art and philosophy that he considered dangerous was not remembered.
I can’t think of “Featherless Biped” without thinking of Sam O’Nella.
2:15 Bruh that burn tho 😂
3:25 well what about endometriosis? the lining of the womb grows out side of the the womb and can travel all around the body, causing pain and inflammation, Plato wasn't far off
Fyi, you can edit your original comment by clicking on those three square dots to the right... in case you didn't know. I'm not telling you to be condescending. =)
Ryan Swanson thanks
No prob.
About your initial comment, my curiosity would be on why Plato believed in the traveling womb theory. Sometimes a person's crazy ideas align with scientific discoveries but it's merely a correlation.
Ryan Swanson true, but Plato wasn't just random crazy person with a couple of good ideas, he must've had logic and reason to why he believed that. Granted, they did not understand anatomy due to the Greeks refusing to dissect the human body, so they wouldn't really have evidence of uterine lining, but I guess we'll never know.
WHERE DID THE INTRO MUSIC GO???????
"good" and "bad" ideas............
Fabrice Richard Yeah... all of this is clearly subjective. 'cept the womb thing. That's just moronic.
I cannot stress how important it is to have definitively good and bad things in our life sometimes.
Is this movie good or bad? it really does not matter.
Is the idea that some people are just born better than others good or bad? It is a very bad and dangerous idea.
Calling them moronic is also subjective - your base expectation of knowledge is today's 'common sense' knowledge gained over the last millennia.
Though I don't see why the womb thing couldn't have been disproven after a few autopsies.
Yason You Yet it is still entirely subjective, which is also very very important. This is an example that most people agree with, but if you take a less safe one, you'll see that the world is in no way black and white.
Actually that being born better idea, while moraly may seem wrong, is partialy true. It's all about genetics, if your parents are genius, you have bigger propability to be genius, if they are dumb, it's more possible you will be too. And statistically black people are physicly stronger than white ones.
Atleast he tried. Tried to give the deeds a face. He was the beginner so mistakes are obvious. why don’t we take good lessons and praise him for that.
Nice video Wisecrack!! good job 👏🏽
Really loved the animation for this one